Talk:Greek War of Independence: Difference between revisions

Browse history interactively ← Previous editContent deleted Content addedVisual WikitextInline

Revision as of 00:05, 2 February 2007 editThulium (talk \| contribs)259 edits →What about the other battles?← Previous edit		Latest revision as of 03:50, 20 October 2024 edit undoCewbot (talk \| contribs)Bots7,279,329 editsm Maintain {{WPBS}}: 6 WikiProject templates. The article is listed in the level 4 page: Eastern Europe. Keep majority rating "C" in {{WPBS}}. Remove 1 deprecated parameter: importance.Tag: Talk banner shell conversion
(764 intermediate revisions by more than 100 users not shown)
Line 1:		Line 1:
			{{Talk header\|noarchives=yes\|search=no}}
	{{WPMILHIST\|class=B\|past-collaboration=] ]–] ]
			{{WikiProject banner shell\|class=B\|vital=yes\|1=
	\|French-task-force=yes
			{{WikiProject Military history\|class=C\|French-task-force= yes\|Ottoman-task-force= yes\|Balkan-task-force= yes\|b1=no\|b2=yes\|b3=yes\|b4=yes\|b5=yes}}
			{{WikiProject Greece\|importance=Top \|attention=yes}}
			{{WikiProject Turkey\|importance=Mid}}
			{{WikiProject Egypt\|importance=Low}}
			{{WikiProject Former countries\|Ottoman=yes\|Ottoman-importance=High}}
			{{WikiProject European history\|importance=Top}}
	}}		}}
			{{GR-TR}}
	{{WPHOG\|class=B\|importance=Top}}
			{{OnThisDay\|date1=2011-03-25\|oldid1=420579561\|date2=2013-03-25\|oldid2=546685970}}
	a
			{{old move\|date=15 September 2022\|destination=Greek Revolution\|result=not moved\|link=#Requested move 15 September 2022}}
	== 1828 ==
			{{archives \|age=365 \|bot=lowercase sigmabot III}}
	The following events were in the ] article. Since they are not mentioned here, I'm moving them out. If they are indeed correct then they should be described here:
			{{User:MiszaBot/config
	* ] - ]: ] declares war on ], in support of the Greek struggle for independence.
			\| algo = old(365d)
	* ] - The Egyptians evacuate Greece, practically ending hostilities there.
			\| archive = Talk:Greek War of Independence/Archive %(counter)d
	* ] - The Russians defeat the Turks at ].
			\| counter = 4
			\| maxarchivesize = 125K
			\| archiveheader = {{Automatic archive navigator}}
			\| minthreadstoarchive = 1
			\| minthreadsleft = 5
			}}

			==Initial hostility and support==
			I think the stance of Austria, Hungary, Switzerland as well as others' should be more detailed and with more info.

			== Adding Albanians in the beligerent list under Ottoman Empire ==

			I suggest adding Albanians under the Ottoman beligerent list against the Greek rebels.

			During the Greek War of Independence (1821-1829) against Ottoman rule, the Albanians supported the Ottoman Empire and fought against the Greek rebels, due to loyalty to the Ottoman rulers, because they feared potential Greek dominance in the region and because of religion causes.

			A surprisingly high number Albanians held positions within the Ottoman administration and military, and they were often used to suppress rebellions, including the Greek uprising

			Albanian leaders and chieftains sided with the Ottomans due to perceived benefits or protection of their interests.

			To support this suggestion I will refer some facts to take into consideration:

			I'''smail Kemal (Vlora)''' was an Albanian politician and statesman who is regarded as the founder of modern Albania. He served as the first prime minister of Albania from December 1912 until his resignation in January 1914. Thus he ias the best knowledge of the role of Albanians during the Ottoman rule.

			He wrote several times that Albanians fully supported the Ottoman Empire:

			-"'''We are the only Balkan people really attached to the Ottoman Empire (Since that time (the death of Skanderbeg), although the Albanians have never given up their passionate desire for independence, they have been the only Balkan people really attached to the Ottoman Empire, always ready to support it, always happy to help strengthen it and to profit by its strength".''' Albania and the Albanians’, reprinted in Yllii Mengjezit (from first publication in The Quarterly Review, 1917), vol. 2, no. 5 (29 September 1917), pp. 129-34, here p. 134.)
	==redirect from Greek Revolution of 1821==
	I added the redirect sorry if I did anything wrong.
	--] 15:28, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

			-We served the Turkish empire faithfully ("'''… and we are proud to feel that during the Ottoman domination, in spite of much unjust treatment from the Turkish rulers, we served the Empire faithfully"'''. Ismail Kamal Bey, The memoirs of Ismail Kemal Bey, Constantinople, 1920, p.4)
	==When did it end?==
	Why does the introduction read "... was a successful war waged by the Greeks between 1821 and 1827"? By 1827, it had not been successful yet. The infobox gives 1828 as end date. But Greece achieved independence in 1832. ] 20:32, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

			'''-Albanians are the only Balkan people really attached to the Ottoman Empire (the Albanians), " they have been the only Balkan people really attached to the Ottoman Empire, always ready to support it, always happy to help strengthen it and to profit by its strength"'''. Ismail Kamal Bey, The memoirs of Ismail Kemal Bey, Konstantinople, 1920, p.361)
	The last campaigns finshed in 1831 when the Greeks were pushing for more land and attacking the Turks in Central Greece.

			-The Sultan entrusted Albanians his harem, his ministries, his military ("'''The''' '''person of the Sultan, his palace, and even his harem, were entrusted to Albanians. In the Ministries and in the civil and military services, Albanians occupied the highest and most distinguished positions".'''Isma’il Kamal Bey, The memoirs of Ismail Kemal Bey, Konstantinople, 1920, p.364)
	== Some treaties merged in ==

			The Albanian website memorie.al wrote “I'''n Elbasan, Haxhi Qamil’s rebels burned the national flag, shouting ‘the crows died’.''' Haxhi Qamil is celebrated as a hero in Albania and several folk songs refer him (<nowiki>https://shorturl.at/nqwCV</nowiki>)
	I've merged the ] and ] articles, which were quite short, into this one. I think I've kept redundancies to a minimum, but I'd appreciate if someone could look over the "Diplomatic endgame" section and check whether there's any repeated details that should be trimmed. ]]]] 03:13, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

			Albanian Kosovar Revivalists '''Isa Boletini and Rizha Gjakova''' wanted Albania to remain under the Sultan. They are considered by Albanians to be important figures for their struggles for the independence of Albania and especially the Albanian uprising of the year 1912.
	== Battlebox - Forces ==

			-In 1912, Albanian rebels entered Skopje but left without declaring independence from the Ottoman Empire. Riza Yakova and Isa Boletini, on 12 Aug. 1912 declared "We do not want autonomy and we cannot separate from the Ottoman Empire"
	The battlebox currently reads simply "Greek guerilla forces" and "Ottoman Empire forces." I think this gives a somewhat incomplete picture. Firstly, not all Greek forces were ''sensu stricto'' "]." ] led a battalion of regulars and tried to organize other Greek fightes along more traditional, Western European lines; although his efforts largely failed, these regulars were still combatants in the GWI. ] led a highly organized, albeit small, traditional naval force. Moreover, there was participation on the Greek side both by foreign irregulars - Philhellene amateurs who fought as guerillas for free, and foreign advisors who fought for pay on land and sea - like the commanding general after 1830, ]. Regular British, French and Russian naval forces fought in the critical Battle of Navarino.<br>
	The Ottomans were a mixed lot, including troops from all over the empire. In World War II articles, it is customary to list New Zealand, Australian and Canadian troops where they participated in major British battles - shouldn't we do the same here? In fact, it should be pointed out somewhere (although probably not in the battlebox) that the organized navy of the Ottomans had a high proportion of Greek sailors.<br>
	We do readers a disservice if we don't let them know at the outset how complicated this war really was. We can paint a romantic picture of heroic Greek klephts vs. perfidious Turks, but in reality many foreign nations were involved, and their participation was often critical. The Ottomans would probably have been knocked out of the Peloponnese if not for the intervention of Egypt - only nominally under Ottoman control - and afterwards the Greek rebellion likely would have been crushed in the end without the Battle of Navarino, which crippled the Ottomans at sea and showed them that traditional West European enemies and the Russia they often distrusted were willing to come together to aid the Greeks. --] 03:23, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

			Albanian friend and powerful lobbyist for the Albanian issue, British politician Aubrey Herbert confesses from meeting with Isa Boletin in Mitrovica on August 27, 2012: According to Isa Boleti «'''Albanians did not want autonomy'''.» Isa Bolettini added that «'''unification of north with south would not be favorable'''«, and that «'''Albania wanted to stay under the Sultan'''.» (Aubrey Herbert, ′′ Ben Kendim: A Record of Eastern Travel «, London: Hutchinson & Co., 1924, page 198-213).
	:Heh. I've already changed that ;-) ]]]] 03:39, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

			-In another page British diplomat '''Aubrey Herbert''' reports about Isa Boletini(Ben Kendim: A Record of Eastern Travel, Hutchinson, 1924,p.205):
	== Lord Byron ==

			"'''I asked:'''
	It is mentioned that Lord Byron, the English poet, fought ont he greek side of the war. I do not know if any other english literary giants fought in the war, but I gather it was somewhat of a cause celebree in its era. Has anyone done any investigation into this?

			'''<nowiki/>'Did the Albanians want autonomy?''''

			'''“No,” he said, “they didn't want to. What they wanted was not to interfere."'''

			'''"You want union," I said, "between north and south?"'''
	] 22:09, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

			'''"Well," he said, "we are one people," but he went on to say that the union would not be beneficial to the north, because the Toske, the southerners, were more educated and intelligent than the northerners.'''
	==Massacre at Chios==
	I'm curious about the use of the word "alleged" in reference to this sentence:

			'''Albania wanted to be under the Sultan, but the Albanians must have arms to defend their country, and those arms they had were taken from them by the foolish Turks.'''"
	The Ottomans retaliated violently in other parts of Greece and uprisings were suppressed by the Ottoman government, allegedly massacring the Greek population of Chios and other towns.

			Albanian '''Hasan Prishtina''' reports that Isa Boletini did not even want to hear not only about independence but not even about autonomy. In fact, he had told the Turk, Ibrahim Pasha: «'''We do not want autonomy, we cannot separate from the Ottomans''' (Hasan Bey Prishtina: Brief Memoir on the Albanian Uprising of 1912)
	The Misplaced Pages reference to the Greek town of Chios states clearly that a massacre did occur. Most of what I found on the web regarding the subject indicates that the massacre took place. I'm removing the word "alleged". If anyone chooses to change this please be courteous and post your source disputing the massacre. ] 19:26, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

			Professors '''Mithat Aydin''' from Pamukkale University, Turkey, Mehmet Tütüncü from SOTA Netherlands, and Ardian Muhaj from Albanian History Institute, Tirana, found, translated, and published the Ottoman document that supports the full support of Albanians to Ottomans and vice versa. (Mithat Aydin, Mehmet Tütüncü and Ardian Muhaj. Published at 20 november 2018 via academia.edu)
	==Casualties and Military size==
	The battlebox numbers are spectacularly wrong. How is it the Turks inflicted so many casualties and were so vastly outnumbered? ] 05:57, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

			In the '''Gallipoli campaign''', there were about '''35.000 Albanians''' from all the territories with Albanian population in the Balkans that went to Gallipoli '''voluntarily to fight on the side of the Turks'''. At least 25.000 Albanians were killed during the Gallipoli Campaign.
	== Turkish Genocide in Peloponnese: Consider for Deletion ==

	'''''Greeks attacked not only turkish military officials but also civilians, a matter which caused a terrible massacre. Main article: see (Turkish Genocide in Peloponnese)'''''

			In '''1911''' , when '''Sultan Reshat Pasha''' visited Kosovo , 100.000 Albanians welcomed him as leader and father.
	''The Ottomans retaliated violently in parts of Greece to the massacre of thousands of Muslims by the Greek insurgents, and uprisings were suppressed by the Ottoman government, massacring in retalliation the Greek population of Chios and other towns. These incidents, however, drew sympathy for the Greek cause in western Europe—although the British and French governments suspected that the uprising was a Russian plot to seize Greece and possibly Constantinople from the Ottomans.''

			In 1914, Albanians rebelled against the separation from the Ottoman Empire. The motto of the rebels was «'''Duam, duam Babën– Turqinë'''!» ('''We want, we want our father—Turkey''') and they raised the flag of the Ottoman Empire and restored Ottoman Turkish as the national language.
	The above statements in this article are unsupported by references and have quite a revisionist history slant. The article "Turkish Genocide on Peleponese" to which a link is established from this article is being considered for deletion from Misplaced Pages also for having a revisionist history slant. The above statement should either be substantiated with proper scholarly references, or be deleted.
	:I think not. Just as they might be unreferenced (but definitely not unsupported, as I myself support it), your comment is also unreferenced, and by the looks of it, unsupported. I invite you to sign your signatures next time with four ~ and please try to give more reason to your posts. -- ] 12:38, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

			'''Faik Konica''' wrote: "'''the vast majority of the people of Albania received the gift given with dissatisfaction.'''" (Faik Konica, «History of Certain Changes«, Dielli newspaper, May 6, 1926) ] (]) 08:51, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
	== What about the other battles? ==

			:Albanians should be added as belligerents on the Greek side as well in that case. The ] and the ] were all Albanian, including those from Hydra, for example, who made great contributions to the Greek cause. Adding “Albanians” to one side is ].
	As I was reading the article, I noticed there were some battles that were not even mentioned - indeed, there were many more than the four depicted in the article.

			:Additionally, many of those figures you listed changed their stances from pro-independence to pro-autonomy and back to pro-independence according to what promises the Ottoman government made to them and how they acted on those promises. They participated in many pro-independence activities, and many of them were heavily involved in multiple military conflicts with the Ottomans. The independence of Albania was supported by most Albanians aside from some Muslim extremists, which culminated in the revolt which you speak of in 1914 - this revolt was mainly led by peasants in central Albania, and was heavily opposed by Albanians from the north, the south, Kosovo etc. The Albanians suffered just as much as the Greeks if not more during the reign of the Ottoman Empire. They were used as soldiers due to their prowess and reputation as warriors and fighters, that is true, but they were left behind entirely in regards to education, infrastructure, development, trade etc. The Ottomans oppressed the Albanians just as they oppressed the Greeks. I get that you are trying to make the point that Albanians were pro-Ottoman, but the countless Albanian rebellions, uprisings and general anti-Ottoman activities during the Ottoman period clearly illustrate that they did not want to be part of the Ottoman Empire and therefore under the rule of foreigners. ] (]) 10:52, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
	I was wondering if anyone had any information about the Battle of Valtetsi, Agrinion (?), Gravia Inn (hani ths gravias), Turkish surrender at Palamidi (in Nafplio), naval battle at the Alexandria port and the liberation of Tripoli? (or any other ones) It would be much appreciated if articles could be added regarding these battles of the revolution. IMHO I believe the battles currently depicted focus too much on the successes of the Great Powers (France, Britain, Russia) and on the defeats of the Greek Revolutionaries, which discredits the true efforts made by the Greeks to gain their independence.

			== "The Ottoman Reaction" section ==
	This website gives some info: http://www.agiasofia.com/1821/fort1821/struggle.html

			The article, as of now, states P1: "The news that the Greeks had revolted sparked murderous fury all over the Ottoman Empire". It adds a reference to a source, this being Q1: "Brewer, David ''The Greek War of Independence'', London: Overlook Duckworth, 2011 pp. 100–101."
	It would be better for the people to know the whole truth (even all the 'minor' conflicts), and to acknowledge the true effort and sacrifice of the Hellenic people.
	Thanks.

			DISCLAIMER: I don't have access to the source (Q1), so I cannot assess how P1 and Q1 are related to each other, or how Q1 warrants P1. It may be the case that Q1 solves all contentions stated below.
	] 05:36, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

			The statement P1 includes the wording "murderous fury all over the Ottoman Empire".
	I am planning on fixing this article soon. As you said there are many significant article which have not yet been written. When I get around to working on this article I shall fix them. Thanks. ] 11:23, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

			CONTENTION 1: "murderous fury" is not assessable objectively. It would require being privy to psychological states of people in the past. I am not sure such knowledge is accessible to any scientifically rigorous degree presently.
	i think there has to be a section focusing on the massacres that took place during the rebellion, somehow the extent of them are greatly downplayed. As user "GreekFreedom" said himself, we have to "know the whole truth" about what happened..--] 17:20, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

			CONTENTION 2: granting that assessing "murderous fury" objectively be possible, the assessment of "fury all over the Ottoman Empire", even if it were possible, seems IMPROBABLE, given the size of the Ottoman Empire, and the amount of research that would be necessary to substantiate the claim.
	:After reading your comment and seeing your edits in ], after seeing your edits in ] and your comment in ] , and after seeing that u "want" credible sources, but at the same time u quote a site named "greekmurderers", i find it difficult to press myself not to revert your edits. ] 22:42, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

			CONCLUSIVE CONTENTION: P1 is not an assertion of fact, nor an objective description of an event. It is a sentence that expresses the feelings and position of the writer on the subject. Therefore, it doesn't belong in a section of the text where facts or objective descriptions are required. As the text is such, the statement should be amended for accuracy or removed. ] (]) 02:18, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
	Hector what is wrong with my edit may i ask? You deleted the entire article just because it offends your greek pride. I used one Greek site and one jewish site for the massacres that took place in pellopennese. Then i made a quotation from greek murderers net although i know that site is far from being objective. Quotation comes from a foreigner historian not written by turks.

			== Article - Nikolaos Gioulekas ==
	The same goes with Chios page, i took as my reference a greek site and the section of smyrna from an absolutely indepedent site..

			Greetings, This biography for ] has zero references, and needs at least one incoming link to remove the Orphan tag. Asking for help here as article states that Gioulekas was a ''captain in the Greek War of Independence of 1821''. Regards, ] (]) 14:54, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
	'''For God's sake you simple cant delete articles just because you dont like them'''...

			== Albanian Revolutionaries ==
	Im going to put them again now if you have any problems with them then find impartial sources disproving mine..--] 23:20, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

			@] there should be a mention of Albanian revolutionaries just like Italian, Serbian and Romanian revolutionaries are mentioned. Just like in other articles there is a mention of Greek revolutionaries (as ethnicity) in wars not related directly to Greece. Denying this while on the same article other nations (way lesser in numbers, importance and impact) are mentioned makes it POV biased and ]. ] (]) 14:30, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
	Im now asking again why my post is being deleted?. If you dont want hector, i may not use greekmurderers net.-i actually only made a quotation from there- But the massacres of peleponnese is a reality, thousands of turks, albanians and jews were killed..
	--] 00:02, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

			:Nonsense. The Serbian and Romanian revolutionaries' ultimate goal was the creation of independent Serbia and Romania. This was definitely not the case of the Souliotes, they fought for an independent Greece, not an independent Albania. Their ethnic origins are completely beyond the scope of the infobox. Absolutely no way. ] (]) 15:06, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
	:No one is disputing that. It will be included in a more ] manner (i.e. compared and contrasted with the atrocities committed against the Greeks). ] 00:05, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
			:Hello RoyalHeritageAlb, I can see why at first this can appear a bit tricky. Besides the ], the ] etc. who came as soldiers of their own empires, the revolutionaries you mentioned are listed separately not on the basis of enthicity, but as groups who belonged or were affiliated to distinct, already existing polities or organizations, whose primary interests were different from the Greek revolution, and came knowingly as foreigners to assist the defeat of the Ottomans. The Serbians are listed as representatives of the ], the Romanians came from the ] and ], and the Italians belonged to the Italian revolutionary society of the ]. Now that I see it, I do believe that the links should change to those articles, rather than the articles of the respective ethnicities, for more accuracy. ] (]) 15:12, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 03:50, 20 October 2024

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Greek War of Independence article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

This

level-4 vital article is rated B-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Military history: Balkan / European / French / Ottoman C‑class

This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history

This article has been rated as C-class on the project's quality scale.

This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-class status:
Referencing and citation: criterion not met Coverage and accuracy: criterion met Structure: criterion met Grammar and style: criterion met Supporting materials: criterion met

Associated task forces:
/
	Balkan military history task force (c. 500–present)
	European military history task force
	French military history task force
	Ottoman military history task force

Greece Top‑importance

	Greece portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Greece, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Greece on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.GreeceWikipedia:WikiProject GreeceTemplate:WikiProject GreeceGreek
Top	This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.
	This article has been marked as needing immediate attention.

Turkey Mid‑importance

	Turkey portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Turkey, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Turkey and related topics on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.TurkeyWikipedia:WikiProject TurkeyTemplate:WikiProject TurkeyTurkey
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Egypt Low‑importance

	Egypt portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Egypt, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Egypt on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.EgyptWikipedia:WikiProject EgyptTemplate:WikiProject EgyptEgypt
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Former countries: Ottoman Empire

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Former countries, a collaborative effort to improve Misplaced Pages's coverage of defunct states and territories (and their subdivisions). If you would like to participate, please join the project.Former countriesWikipedia:WikiProject Former countriesTemplate:WikiProject Former countriesformer country
	This article is supported by WikiProject Ottoman Empire (assessed as High-importance).

European history Top‑importance

	Europe portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject European history, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the history of Europe on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.European historyWikipedia:WikiProject European historyTemplate:WikiProject European historyEuropean history
Top	This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.

This article may be within the scope of Greek and Turkish wikipedians cooperation board. Please see the project page for more details, to request intervention on the notification board or peruse other tasks.

A fact from this article was featured on Misplaced Pages's Main Page in the On this day section on March 25, 2011 and March 25, 2013.

On 15 September 2022, it was proposed that this article be moved to Greek Revolution. The result of the discussion was not moved.

Archives

Archive 1	Archive 2	Archive 3
Archive 4

This page has archives. Sections older than 365 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 5 sections are present.

Initial hostility and support

I think the stance of Austria, Hungary, Switzerland as well as others' should be more detailed and with more info.

Adding Albanians in the beligerent list under Ottoman Empire

I suggest adding Albanians under the Ottoman beligerent list against the Greek rebels.

During the Greek War of Independence (1821-1829) against Ottoman rule, the Albanians supported the Ottoman Empire and fought against the Greek rebels, due to loyalty to the Ottoman rulers, because they feared potential Greek dominance in the region and because of religion causes.

A surprisingly high number Albanians held positions within the Ottoman administration and military, and they were often used to suppress rebellions, including the Greek uprising

Albanian leaders and chieftains sided with the Ottomans due to perceived benefits or protection of their interests.

To support this suggestion I will refer some facts to take into consideration:

Ismail Kemal (Vlora) was an Albanian politician and statesman who is regarded as the founder of modern Albania. He served as the first prime minister of Albania from December 1912 until his resignation in January 1914. Thus he ias the best knowledge of the role of Albanians during the Ottoman rule.

He wrote several times that Albanians fully supported the Ottoman Empire:

-"We are the only Balkan people really attached to the Ottoman Empire (Since that time (the death of Skanderbeg), although the Albanians have never given up their passionate desire for independence, they have been the only Balkan people really attached to the Ottoman Empire, always ready to support it, always happy to help strengthen it and to profit by its strength". Albania and the Albanians’, reprinted in Yllii Mengjezit (from first publication in The Quarterly Review, 1917), vol. 2, no. 5 (29 September 1917), pp. 129-34, here p. 134.)

-We served the Turkish empire faithfully ("… and we are proud to feel that during the Ottoman domination, in spite of much unjust treatment from the Turkish rulers, we served the Empire faithfully". Ismail Kamal Bey, The memoirs of Ismail Kemal Bey, Constantinople, 1920, p.4)

-Albanians are the only Balkan people really attached to the Ottoman Empire (the Albanians), " they have been the only Balkan people really attached to the Ottoman Empire, always ready to support it, always happy to help strengthen it and to profit by its strength". Ismail Kamal Bey, The memoirs of Ismail Kemal Bey, Konstantinople, 1920, p.361)

-The Sultan entrusted Albanians his harem, his ministries, his military ("The person of the Sultan, his palace, and even his harem, were entrusted to Albanians. In the Ministries and in the civil and military services, Albanians occupied the highest and most distinguished positions".Isma’il Kamal Bey, The memoirs of Ismail Kemal Bey, Konstantinople, 1920, p.364)

The Albanian website memorie.al wrote “In Elbasan, Haxhi Qamil’s rebels burned the national flag, shouting ‘the crows died’. Haxhi Qamil is celebrated as a hero in Albania and several folk songs refer him (https://shorturl.at/nqwCV)

Albanian Kosovar Revivalists Isa Boletini and Rizha Gjakova wanted Albania to remain under the Sultan. They are considered by Albanians to be important figures for their struggles for the independence of Albania and especially the Albanian uprising of the year 1912.

-In 1912, Albanian rebels entered Skopje but left without declaring independence from the Ottoman Empire. Riza Yakova and Isa Boletini, on 12 Aug. 1912 declared "We do not want autonomy and we cannot separate from the Ottoman Empire"

Albanian friend and powerful lobbyist for the Albanian issue, British politician Aubrey Herbert confesses from meeting with Isa Boletin in Mitrovica on August 27, 2012: According to Isa Boleti «Albanians did not want autonomy.» Isa Bolettini added that «unification of north with south would not be favorable«, and that «Albania wanted to stay under the Sultan.» (Aubrey Herbert, ′′ Ben Kendim: A Record of Eastern Travel «, London: Hutchinson & Co., 1924, page 198-213).

-In another page British diplomat Aubrey Herbert reports about Isa Boletini(Ben Kendim: A Record of Eastern Travel, Hutchinson, 1924,p.205):

"I asked:

'Did the Albanians want autonomy?'

“No,” he said, “they didn't want to. What they wanted was not to interfere."

"You want union," I said, "between north and south?"

"Well," he said, "we are one people," but he went on to say that the union would not be beneficial to the north, because the Toske, the southerners, were more educated and intelligent than the northerners.

Albania wanted to be under the Sultan, but the Albanians must have arms to defend their country, and those arms they had were taken from them by the foolish Turks."

Albanian Hasan Prishtina reports that Isa Boletini did not even want to hear not only about independence but not even about autonomy. In fact, he had told the Turk, Ibrahim Pasha: «We do not want autonomy, we cannot separate from the Ottomans (Hasan Bey Prishtina: Brief Memoir on the Albanian Uprising of 1912)

Professors Mithat Aydin from Pamukkale University, Turkey, Mehmet Tütüncü from SOTA Netherlands, and Ardian Muhaj from Albanian History Institute, Tirana, found, translated, and published the Ottoman document that supports the full support of Albanians to Ottomans and vice versa. (Mithat Aydin, Mehmet Tütüncü and Ardian Muhaj. Published at 20 november 2018 via academia.edu)

In the Gallipoli campaign, there were about 35.000 Albanians from all the territories with Albanian population in the Balkans that went to Gallipoli voluntarily to fight on the side of the Turks. At least 25.000 Albanians were killed during the Gallipoli Campaign.

In 1911 , when Sultan Reshat Pasha visited Kosovo , 100.000 Albanians welcomed him as leader and father.

In 1914, Albanians rebelled against the separation from the Ottoman Empire. The motto of the rebels was «Duam, duam Babën– Turqinë!» (We want, we want our father—Turkey) and they raised the flag of the Ottoman Empire and restored Ottoman Turkish as the national language.

Faik Konica wrote: "the vast majority of the people of Albania received the gift given with dissatisfaction." (Faik Konica, «History of Certain Changes«, Dielli newspaper, May 6, 1926) Ipapas (talk) 08:51, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

Albanians should be added as belligerents on the Greek side as well in that case. The Souliotes and the Arvanites were all Albanian, including those from Hydra, for example, who made great contributions to the Greek cause. Adding “Albanians” to one side is WP:UNDUE.

Additionally, many of those figures you listed changed their stances from pro-independence to pro-autonomy and back to pro-independence according to what promises the Ottoman government made to them and how they acted on those promises. They participated in many pro-independence activities, and many of them were heavily involved in multiple military conflicts with the Ottomans. The independence of Albania was supported by most Albanians aside from some Muslim extremists, which culminated in the revolt which you speak of in 1914 - this revolt was mainly led by peasants in central Albania, and was heavily opposed by Albanians from the north, the south, Kosovo etc. The Albanians suffered just as much as the Greeks if not more during the reign of the Ottoman Empire. They were used as soldiers due to their prowess and reputation as warriors and fighters, that is true, but they were left behind entirely in regards to education, infrastructure, development, trade etc. The Ottomans oppressed the Albanians just as they oppressed the Greeks. I get that you are trying to make the point that Albanians were pro-Ottoman, but the countless Albanian rebellions, uprisings and general anti-Ottoman activities during the Ottoman period clearly illustrate that they did not want to be part of the Ottoman Empire and therefore under the rule of foreigners. Botushali (talk) 10:52, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

"The Ottoman Reaction" section

The article, as of now, states P1: "The news that the Greeks had revolted sparked murderous fury all over the Ottoman Empire". It adds a reference to a source, this being Q1: "Brewer, David The Greek War of Independence, London: Overlook Duckworth, 2011 pp. 100–101."

DISCLAIMER: I don't have access to the source (Q1), so I cannot assess how P1 and Q1 are related to each other, or how Q1 warrants P1. It may be the case that Q1 solves all contentions stated below.

The statement P1 includes the wording "murderous fury all over the Ottoman Empire".

CONTENTION 1: "murderous fury" is not assessable objectively. It would require being privy to psychological states of people in the past. I am not sure such knowledge is accessible to any scientifically rigorous degree presently.

CONTENTION 2: granting that assessing "murderous fury" objectively be possible, the assessment of "fury all over the Ottoman Empire", even if it were possible, seems IMPROBABLE, given the size of the Ottoman Empire, and the amount of research that would be necessary to substantiate the claim.

CONCLUSIVE CONTENTION: P1 is not an assertion of fact, nor an objective description of an event. It is a sentence that expresses the feelings and position of the writer on the subject. Therefore, it doesn't belong in a section of the text where facts or objective descriptions are required. As the text is such, the statement should be amended for accuracy or removed. 240D:1A:DA1:500:8580:4865:E0C:124C (talk) 02:18, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

Article - Nikolaos Gioulekas

Greetings, This biography for Nikolaos Gioulekas has zero references, and needs at least one incoming link to remove the Orphan tag. Asking for help here as article states that Gioulekas was a captain in the Greek War of Independence of 1821. Regards, JoeNMLC (talk) 14:54, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

Albanian Revolutionaries

@Piccco there should be a mention of Albanian revolutionaries just like Italian, Serbian and Romanian revolutionaries are mentioned. Just like in other articles there is a mention of Greek revolutionaries (as ethnicity) in wars not related directly to Greece. Denying this while on the same article other nations (way lesser in numbers, importance and impact) are mentioned makes it POV biased and WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT. RoyalHeritageAlb (talk) 14:30, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

Nonsense. The Serbian and Romanian revolutionaries' ultimate goal was the creation of independent Serbia and Romania. This was definitely not the case of the Souliotes, they fought for an independent Greece, not an independent Albania. Their ethnic origins are completely beyond the scope of the infobox. Absolutely no way. Khirurg (talk) 15:06, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

Hello RoyalHeritageAlb, I can see why at first this can appear a bit tricky. Besides the British, the Russians etc. who came as soldiers of their own empires, the revolutionaries you mentioned are listed separately not on the basis of enthicity, but as groups who belonged or were affiliated to distinct, already existing polities or organizations, whose primary interests were different from the Greek revolution, and came knowingly as foreigners to assist the defeat of the Ottomans. The Serbians are listed as representatives of the principality of Serbia, the Romanians came from the principalities of Moldavia and Wallachia, and the Italians belonged to the Italian revolutionary society of the Carbonari. Now that I see it, I do believe that the links should change to those articles, rather than the articles of the respective ethnicities, for more accuracy. Piccco (talk) 15:12, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

Categories: