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Revision as of 17:21, 21 October 2021 editPyrrho the Skipper (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, New page reviewers3,947 edits Fringe science: Arbitrator views and discussion: cmtTag: Reverted← Previous edit Latest revision as of 00:36, 4 January 2025 edit undoHouseBlaster (talk | contribs)Edit filter managers, Administrators58,562 edits hatting as withdrawn (user:SimpleSubCubicGraph
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== Amendment request: Fringe science == == Amendment request: Armenia-Azerbaijan_3 ==
{{hat|Withdrawn. <b>]]</b>&nbsp;(]&nbsp;•&nbsp;he/they) 00:36, 4 January 2025 (UTC)}}
'''Initiated by''' ] '''at''' 16:48, 21 October 2021 (UTC) '''Initiated by''' ] '''at''' 18:48, 3 January 2025 (UTC)


;Case or decision affected ;Case or decision affected
:{{RFARlinks|Fringe science}} :{{RFARlinks|Armenia-Azerbaijan_3}}


; Clauses to which an amendment is requested ; Clauses to which an amendment is requested
#: #

#:
#:
#:


; List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request: ; List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
<!--This list should only be changed after filing by clerks and Arbitrators. All others should ask to add an involved user. One place to request an addition is at the clerks noticeboard ]-->
*{{admin|DGG}} (initiator)
*{{userlinks|SimpleSubCubicGraph}} (initiator)






; Information about amendment request ; Information about amendment request
*: *
:*I request a modification to the probation period, and want the probation to end immediately and for all pages involving Armenia-Azerbaijan, except the ] wars to be downgraded to Autoconfirmed Protection.
:*To the clause {{tq| In this ruling, the term "fringe science" refers to matters which purport to be science, or use its trappings and terminology but are not usually regarded as such by the general scientific community; and to matters which do not claim to be scientific but nevertheless make claims that are normally considered within the purview of science.}} should be added ''"This should be interpreted according to the community guideline at ]''''
*:
:*Replace the statement {{tq| Neutrality requires that the article should fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by a reliable source, and should do so in proportion to the prominence of each. Academic and peer-reviewed publications are highly valued and usually the most reliable sources in areas where they are available, such as history, medicine and science.}} should be replaced by '' Academic and peer-reviewed publications are usually the most reliable sources in areas where they are available, but material from reliable non-academic sources may also be used in these areas." in order to match the guideline at ]
*:
:*Add a clause: ''In particular, WP:NPOV requires that High-quality sources should not be excluded from articles purely on the basis of the viewpoint they represent. Discussions of the quality of sources must not take account of what viewpoint they represent. Likewise, WP:V requires that every statement in an article be directly supported by a reliable source. Material must not be included in articles only on the basis of communicating the "correct" view, if it is not supported by the sources it cites."
*:
:*Add a clause: ''Fringe political, social, and religious views are not part of science. The above definitions do not apply. The fundamental policies WP:NPOV and WP:V do apply ; in particular, WP:NPOV requires that sources should not be excluded from articles on the basis of the viewpoint they represent''.


=== Statement by DGG ===
The reason for this request is the arguments on sources that keep occurring on the Reliable Sources Noticeboard, ], when dealing with minority views, where the arb com rulings have been used to prevent the inclusion of reasonably reputable sources. This includes among others recent discussions in the scientific areas of Covid, Race & Intelligence, Genetically modified organisms, climate change, and various aspects of medicine, and in the areas of American and other national politics, nationalism in different regions, and various conspiracy theories. See ]


=== Statement by SimpleSubCubicGraph ===
The hope is to focus the arguments over sourcing, decrease the need for AE and discretionary sanctions, make further requests for arbitration cases in such areas unnecessary--and possibly even reduce the need for some of the discussions and arguments that arise.
A recent statement was made by Armenia offering condolences to Azerbaijan which has almost never happened, I believe that Armenia and Azerbaijan related pages blanket protection of Extended Confirmed should be lowered to Autoconfirmed protection, with the exception of the wars between the two sovereign nations. Additionally, relations are getting better between the two countries. For nearly 30 years, relations were rock bottom, diplomats were not found in Azerbaijan nor Armenia and tensions were at an all time high. However ever since the 2020 war the two nations have started to make amends. This first started with the peace deal ending the war between the two nations. Turkey whom is a staunch ally of Azerbaijan has started to resume direct flights from ], the capital of Armenia and ], the largest city in the Republic of Turkiye. In 2023, Armenia and Azerbaijan entered into extensive bilateral negotiations as well as a prisoner exchange between the two countries, and Armenia supported Azerbaijan for being the host of the UN climate change forum. Finally, last year the two countries solved many border issues and created a transport route between the two countries which is a symbol of peace. The two nations are much better off now than they were just 4 years ago and can be seen as having a cooperative/reconciling attitude. That is why I propose an amendment that will immediately downgrade all protections (from ] to ]) for all Armenia-Azerbaijan related pages.
:@] then how would I appeal or ask the community to lift sanctions over Armenia-Azerbaijan ] (]) 00:13, 4 January 2025 (UTC) <small>{{clerk note}} Moved to own section <b>]]</b>&nbsp;(]&nbsp;•&nbsp;he/they) 00:15, 4 January 2025 (UTC)</small>


:@] going off what voorts said, can this suggestion be repealed/deleted? ] (]) 00:22, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
I am not necessarily saying that all of the areas mentioned should rightfully be included under WP:FRINGE; I am certainly not saying that all or most of the arb com decisions or the community decisions based on them were improper, or led to incorrect conclusions. I have been involved in many such discussions at WP:RSN and elsewhere; sometimes the views I supported have been upheld, and sometimes not. I have no intention of re-arguing any of them here, or of using this request to challenge or overturn any previous decision by arbitrators or the community. The purpose of this request is to act as a guide for future discussions.
I am not naming parties, as this applies to everyone who might be working in these areas. I am notifying ] and ]


=== Statement by Alexbrn === === Statement by voorts ===
{{ping|SimpleSubCubicGraph}} ECP-only edits were imposed by the community as a ], not by ArbCom. ArbCom does not have jurisdiction here. That said, whether or not Armenian-Azerbaijani relations are warming, the community has imposed sanctions here (and ArbCom has designated this area as a contentious topic) because of disruption in the topic area by editors. I highly doubt that you'd get the community to agree to change this rule, given that editors are still routinely sanctioned under this GS. See ]. ] (]/]) 23:49, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

: {{ping|SimpleSubCubicGraph}} There is. You can read ] for more information. However, as I said, there is almost zero chance that you will get this sanction to be removed. You should be patient and wait to get 500 edits and EC. ] (]/]) 00:25, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
I don't think arbcom should have jurisdiction over content decisions, so the current ruling is an unfortunate artefact from the past. Revoking it may, however, give the impression that somehow restrictions are being lifted. The proposed amendment looks even worse, in that in some respects it seems to want to make an end-run around core policy. In particular, for fringe topics the proposed text "WP:NPOV requires that High-quality sources should not be excluded from articles purely on the basis of the viewpoint they represent" is simply wrong, since for fringe topics ] has:
{{talkquote|... plausible but currently unaccepted theories should not be legitimized through comparison to accepted academic scholarship. We do not take a stand on these issues as encyclopedia writers, for or against; we merely '''omit this information where including it would unduly legitimize it''' ... (''emphasis mine'')}}
The proposed amendment would allow the pseudoscience in apparently "high-quality" sources (e.g. peer-reviewed articles in homeopathy journals) passage into Misplaced Pages, or at least fuel drama over arguing for it. It is important that Misplaced Pages does not include fringe ideas except through the lens of ''accepted academic scholarship'', where it exists.

If there's an issue with policy, fix the policy text. I say: don't try and provide additional layers of amendement to an area which is already plagued by ] and drama. ] (]) 17:18, 21 October 2021 (UTC)


=== Statement by {other-editor} === === Statement by {other-editor} ===
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<!-- * Please copy this section for the next person. * --> <!-- * Please copy this section for the next person. * -->


=== Fringe science: Clerk notes === === Armenia-Azerbaijan_3: Clerk notes ===
:''This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).'' :''This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).''
* *


=== Fringe science: Arbitrator views and discussion === === Armenia-Azerbaijan_3: Arbitrator views and discussion ===
*
* If I understand this request correctly, we are being asked to reduce Misplaced Pages's dependence on academic peer-reviewed sources in fringe scientific topics by denying them priority over other sources. I welcome statements from the community on whether these changes are desirable, what impacts they would have, and whether they would be consistent with the principles and findings of the {{ArbCase|Fringe science}} case in question. – ]] 17:15, 21 October 2021 (UTC)
{{hab}}
** I'm a bit confused over point 6, because WP:MEDRS states: {{tq|The popular press is generally not a reliable source for scientific and medical information in articles}}, but this amendment seems like it would state that popular press is fine in fringe medicine, if that same source is used for, say, politics. ] (]) 17:20, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

----

Latest revision as of 00:36, 4 January 2025

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Amendment request: Armenia-Azerbaijan_3

Withdrawn. HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 00:36, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Initiated by SimpleSubCubicGraph at 18:48, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

Case or decision affected
Armenia-Azerbaijan_3 arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)
Clauses to which an amendment is requested
  1. Olympian ban on Armenia-Azerbaijan


List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request


Information about amendment request
  • I request a modification to the probation period, and want the probation to end immediately and for all pages involving Armenia-Azerbaijan, except the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict wars to be downgraded to Autoconfirmed Protection.


Statement by SimpleSubCubicGraph

A recent statement was made by Armenia offering condolences to Azerbaijan which has almost never happened, I believe that Armenia and Azerbaijan related pages blanket protection of Extended Confirmed should be lowered to Autoconfirmed protection, with the exception of the wars between the two sovereign nations. Additionally, relations are getting better between the two countries. For nearly 30 years, relations were rock bottom, diplomats were not found in Azerbaijan nor Armenia and tensions were at an all time high. However ever since the 2020 war the two nations have started to make amends. This first started with the peace deal ending the war between the two nations. Turkey whom is a staunch ally of Azerbaijan has started to resume direct flights from Yerevan, the capital of Armenia and Istanbul, the largest city in the Republic of Turkiye. In 2023, Armenia and Azerbaijan entered into extensive bilateral negotiations as well as a prisoner exchange between the two countries, and Armenia supported Azerbaijan for being the host of the UN climate change forum. Finally, last year the two countries solved many border issues and created a transport route between the two countries which is a symbol of peace. The two nations are much better off now than they were just 4 years ago and can be seen as having a cooperative/reconciling attitude. That is why I propose an amendment that will immediately downgrade all protections (from ECP to ACP) for all Armenia-Azerbaijan related pages.

@Voorts then how would I appeal or ask the community to lift sanctions over Armenia-Azerbaijan SimpleSubCubicGraph (talk) 00:13, 4 January 2025 (UTC)  Clerk note: Moved to own section HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 00:15, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
@Houseblaster going off what voorts said, can this suggestion be repealed/deleted? SimpleSubCubicGraph (talk) 00:22, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Statement by voorts

@SimpleSubCubicGraph: ECP-only edits were imposed by the community as a general sanction, not by ArbCom. ArbCom does not have jurisdiction here. That said, whether or not Armenian-Azerbaijani relations are warming, the community has imposed sanctions here (and ArbCom has designated this area as a contentious topic) because of disruption in the topic area by editors. I highly doubt that you'd get the community to agree to change this rule, given that editors are still routinely sanctioned under this GS. See WP:GS/AA. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:49, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

@SimpleSubCubicGraph: There is. You can read WP:GS for more information. However, as I said, there is almost zero chance that you will get this sanction to be removed. You should be patient and wait to get 500 edits and EC. voorts (talk/contributions) 00:25, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Statement by {other-editor}

Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.

Armenia-Azerbaijan_3: Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Armenia-Azerbaijan_3: Arbitrator views and discussion

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