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This article was nominated for deletion on 1 May 2021. The result of the discussion was no consensus.

WARNING: ACTIVE COMMUNITY SANCTIONS The article Aaron Maté, along with other pages relating to the Syrian Civil War and ISIL, is designated by the community as a contentious topic. The current restrictions are: Limit of one revert in 24 hours: This article is under WP:1RR (one revert per editor per article per 24-hour period) Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be sanctioned. Remedy instructions and exemptions Enforcement procedures: Violations of any restrictions (excluding 1RR/reverting violations) and other conduct issues should be reported to the administrators' incidents noticeboard. Violations of revert restrictions should be reported to the administrators' edit warring noticeboard. Editors who violate any listed restrictions may be blocked by any uninvolved administrator, even on a first offense. An editor must be aware before they can be sanctioned. With respect to any reverting restrictions: Edits made solely to enforce any clearly established consensus are exempt from all edit-warring restrictions. In order to be considered "clearly established" the consensus must be proven by prior talk-page discussion. Edits made which remove or otherwise change any material placed by clearly established consensus, without first obtaining consensus to do so, may be treated in the same manner as clear vandalism. Clear vandalism of any origin may be reverted without restriction. Reverts of edits made by anonymous (IP) editors that are not vandalism are exempt from the 1RR but are subject to the usual rules on edit warring. If you are in doubt, contact an administrator for assistance. If you are unsure if your edit is appropriate, discuss it here on this talk page first. Remember: When in doubt, don't revert!

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Article appears extremely biased

Over and over again on Misplaced Pages, articles which have been "padlocked" for "vandalism", are incredibly biased and one-sided. The padlock is the vandalism. Somehow a tiny number of power-users control these articles to write them as they like, instead of adhering to what wikipedia is meant to be about. You see their names appear again and again in padlocked articles talk pages. This article needs to be written in a much more neutral tone, and these power-users need to stop taking control of articles. I have no idea of the mechanic by which they do so but it is being scandalously abused.61.8.106.71 (talk) 11:39, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

You are of course correct. Sadly Misplaced Pages seems FUBAR at this point. They want this article to be a character assassination and there's not much we can do about it. Iskube (talk) 16:06, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

Aaron Mate openly denies the Uyghur genocide, denies the Bucha massacre, and has taken money from the pro Assad Lobby and the Russian government stating this is not character assassination. He is objectively a conspiracy theorist. Monochromemelo1 (talk) 01:46, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

I urge you to look at Aarons page history before the lock and how much pro-Assad disinformation was on this page. The page is much better now and more neutral based on established facts 86.5.202.27 (talk) 14:07, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

I wholeheartedly agree with OP's objections to the extremely biased language in this article, and the concerns raised about what seems like an obvious and direct attempt to assassinate and smear Maté's character. The repeated use of the same source for many negative and serious accusations in the introduction should be enough to warrant a complete re-write of this shameful article. And especially so when this same source is a single article from The Jewish Chronicle; a paper widely known for aggressive attacks and smears on political opponents. Peirik1 (talk) 11:44, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

@Peirik1:, the content you removed had several other sources attached - not just the Jewish Chronicle (which is still used in the article even after your edit) but sources from Politico, The Guardian and the South China Morning Post - two of which are on the WP:RSP list as perennially reliable sources. The Jewish Chronicle is also on this list, so your claims about content being "poorly sourced" are not quite in line with what Misplaced Pages considers poorly sourced. It's well documented and sourced that his publication publishes supportive coverages of the governments mentioned in the lede, and it appropriately summarises what he's notable for, so I'd like to hear why you think this is due for removal. I'd also like you not to make unfounded allegations of editors lying, per WP:AGF. Thanks. ser! 12:11, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

The South China Morning Post source is behind a paywall, and impossible to verify without a subscription. So this source should be removed and disregarded.

The Guardian source only mentions accusations by some political advocacy organization against Maté, and doesn't present any evidence for the claim. Further down in the same article you can read that Maté rejects the accusations:

Maté said that, “neither the study or the Observer offer any evidence ”; he said the study did not substantiate that anything he had shared was disinformation and “does not even attempt to refute a single claim of mine”. Maté said it had faulted him for arguing that the OPCW “investigation into the Douma chemical attack was flawed” but he defended his reporting, suggesting the ISD study “cannot contest” an argument that was based on OPCW leaks.

I find it very irresposible and disingenuous to present these accusations as indisputed fact in this introduction. Especially so considering the BLP policy.

That leaves The Jewish Chronicle as the single one-and-only source for the labelling of Maté as a publisher of supportive journalism for Russia, Syria and China. Peirik1 (talk) 12:29, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

Also to your point that The Jewish Chronicle is on the WP:RSP list: the listing for that source specifically says:

There is no consensus on whether The Jewish Chronicle is reliable for topics related to the British Left, Muslims, Islam, and Palestine/Palestinians; there is also a rough consensus it is biased in these topics.

To therefore suggest that this source is in any way reliable about a far-left blog like The Greyzone, is borderline ridiculous. Peirik1 (talk) 12:38, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

The South China Morning Post source is behind a paywall should be removed and disregarded. That's not how we do things on Misplaced Pages, per WP:PAYWALL paywalled sources are perfectly usable. Pro tip: try using the Wayback Machine as a tool for viewing paywalled content, it works a lot of the time. Re your point on "evidence", our job isn't to round up evidence, it's to reflect what reliable sources (such as The Guardian) say - and in this case they talk about the results of this report, which we attribute as they do. The Jewish Chronicle being biased on several topics does not really impact this seeing as none of these topics pertain to Russia, Syria or China. You also didn't address the Politico source, so even taking your arguments at their best there's still two sources, though in reality there's at least four. ser! 12:46, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

"You also didn't address the Politico source". Neither did you. Perhaps because that source doesn't mention either Aaron Maté or The Greyzone at all? Thank you for demonstrating the disingenuous nature of this entire exchange. Peirik1 (talk) 12:50, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

I did? Right in my first post here I mentioned it, because it does mention The Grayzone if you read it. ser! 12:55, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

Also now that you've been reverted by another user, I just said I'd let you know about the WP:1RR on this page, meaning if you revert again you're liable to be blocked. Just in case you don't see the page notices. ser! 12:15, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

given the tone of this topic's discussion, i expected to find an egregious smear campaign happening on the page itself. having reviewed it, and understanding my own bias that mate is a journalist whose work is controversial as great journalists are wont to find, i believe this article is not "extremely biased". i actually was pleasantly surprised to see how neutral much of the language was. my only contention is the inclusion of the bit about him spreading misinformation about syria, as the source for that claim is, itself, politically motivated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by BigMouthCommie (talk • contribs) 13:08, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

to this point, this is in the linked source: " Footnote added 10 July 2022: Aaron Maté, who was not contacted for comment prior to publication of this article, responded afterwards. Maté said that, “neither the study or the Observer offer any evidence ”; he said the study did not substantiate that anything he had shared was disinformation and “does not even attempt to refute a single claim of mine”. Maté said it had faulted him for arguing that the OPCW “investigation into the Douma chemical attack was flawed” but he defended his reporting, suggesting the ISD study “cannot contest” an argument that was based on OPCW leaks. He also believed there was a conflict of interest because the ISD’s funders included some western governments that had been involved in the war in Syria and because the Syria Campaign was founded by “a billionaire financier” who was a supporter of the Syrian opposition."

with this in mind, i believe the correct method is to remove this section in its entirety. — Preceding unsigned comment added by BigMouthCommie (talk • contribs) 13:10, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

This is fine in the body, but appears WP:UNDUE for the lead given (1) it is the analysis of a single political advocacy organization, and (2) this is a WP:BLP where we should proceed cautiously, especially in the lead. JArthur1984 (talk) 13:23, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. Now the article has extended protiection and seems that editors keep faulty references or ways of referencing for an example reference 9. It is being used to label the article and is simply a reference to a news articles stating an opinion on the person(this case Aaron Maté. This article needs WP:RAA urgently - Misplaced Pages guidelines on WP:NPOV are not being followed. Hapsback (talk) 16:21, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

Reliably sourced material deleted

I don't understand why this was removed: With regard to Maté's reporting on the Syrian Civil War, the Institute for Strategic Dialogue said that, among the 28 social media accounts, individuals, outlets, and organisations which it studied, Maté was the most prolific spreader of disinformation surrounding the war, including on the use of chemical weapons by the Syrian government. BobFromBrockley (talk) 14:57, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

It’s deleted from the lead, where it was overemphasis on the analysis of a single political advocacy group and the concerns of BLP and BLPlead require us to be cautious.

A more detailed description, with both the analysis of the political advocacy group and the article subject’s response, remains in the body. JArthur1984 (talk) 15:08, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

I think actually I agree it's fine just in the body as is. Thanks. BobFromBrockley (talk) 16:11, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

References

1. Townsend, Mark (19 June 2022). "Network of Syria conspiracy theorists identified – study". the Guardian. Retrieved 3 November 2022.

Greyzone description

It appears an IP and WP:SPA are persistently reverting the sourced contextualization of The Grayzone as a "fringe far-left news website." Multiple editors have reverted these removals, yet Hapsback (talk · contribs) persists. Anyone else want to chime in on this content? I don't want to violate WP:3RR. --ZimZalaBim 16:37, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

Because it is against wikipedia guidelines. Subjective description has no place in the introduction nor depscription. It can be stated in another section on controversy or opinions. I dont understand your persistence on this. Hapsback (talk) 16:57, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

Generally, I’m cautious about characterizations like “fringe”. Is the sourcing sufficient to say “fringe” in Wikivoice? We would really want to see enough RS using “fringe” before we satisfied ourselves.

I am someone who is also generally cautious about “far right/left” because it can be relative. On the other hand, it is best suited for western political contexts like this. Unless there are strong views by other editors or strong sources, I generally like to avoid. It’s often better to let the views ‘speak for themselves’ than tell the reader.

These are some perspectives that may help avoid an edit war. I don’t know quite enough about this specific website to take a firm view. I hope it can be worked through collegiality and perhaps this will be useful. JArthur1984 (talk) 17:06, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

I just now noticed that The Greyzone is already noted in the opening line, so perhaps there is some WP:UNDUE at play for calling it out specifically in a separate sentence further down the opening paragraphs. Other thoughts?--ZimZalaBim 18:37, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

Guidelines for neutrality, section "Being neutral" - "There's no such thing as objectivity"

quote: In other words, when discussing a subject, we should report what people have said about it rather than what is so.

Also under section "Impartial tone" :

quote: "The tone of Misplaced Pages articles should be impartial, neither endorsing nor rejecting a particular point of view" Hapsback (talk) 19:19, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

reference number 8 is to an article gesticulating and referencing an opinion by someone else therefore IF this is valid information it should be described accordingly, so the JC has accused Aaron Mate of ..... Hapsback (talk) 19:25, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

Mate isn't being "accused" of anything. This is about whether to include the sourced adjectives used to describe The Grayzone, which consensus on that article appears to be for including these terms. The question is whether to include specific mention here as well. --ZimZalaBim 19:32, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

Those adjectives are made on the basis of the sources are they not? Shouldnt the adjectives correspond to the sources and shouldnt the sources then be proberly referenced othwerise it is refutable and redundant. Hapsback (talk) 19:43, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

I don't think that this is WP:UNDUE, since The Greyzone is Maté's current employer. I have gone ahead and added "currently" to the sentence in question. BilletsMauves 11:45, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

Highly problematic that you dont take the references into consideration and leave as is as it cearly goes against guidelines. Hapsback (talk) 15:13, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

I saw Hapsback has posted about this in WP:NPOVN... It seems like The Grayzone has many references to the fact its fringe on its own article page. Is there a reason why it isn't fringe, if most sources seem to dismiss it as such? Bluethricecreamman (talk) 17:28, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

the problem is using an article as a reference for an objective claim when the article itself is an accusation of a third part. Stating greyzone is fringe therefore needs a reference that can substantiate this, reference 9 is about acussations of anitsemitism by a third party and has nothing to do with this. Hapsback (talk) 17:42, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

correction: reference 8. Hapsback (talk) 17:44, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

October 7th rape denial

Mr. Maté participated in a debate on Piers Morgan Uncensored which aired on September 25, 2024. He asserted multiple times that there is no evidence of rape committed by Hamas militants against Israelis during the October 7, 2023 attack.

His comments start at the 26:00 mark in the broadcast here: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hwO3YXoAh0U 209.237.132.125 (talk) 03:48, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

Adding "denial" to a term is a well-worn propaganda device. In Aaron's case it would be more accurate to use the term "Evidence of 7 October rape denial" since there is a difference between saying something did not happen and saying there is no evidence that something happened. Burrobert (talk) 05:27, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

I agree that denying evidence is not exactly the same as denying the underlying fact, but Mr. Maté’s statements on this subject remain remarkable and are noteworthy for inclusion in his Misplaced Pages page. "Evidence of 7 October rape denial" should be added to his profile page.

Also, saying “Adding "denial" to a term is a well-worn propaganda device.” is a non-factual statement of opinion. 209.237.132.125 (talk) 21:54, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

Has this been reported by secondary sources? BobFromBrockley (talk) 11:27, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

View on Assad

Mate recently claimed on twitter that he never supported Assad, despite the fact that he denied Assad killed his own people in the Douma chemical attack. Should this discrepancy be added to the page? JPHC2003 (talk) 00:55, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

Aaron has written about claims that the Syrian government used chemical weapons and has criticised a report issued by the OPCW. The Grayzone has provided extensive coverage of what it calls a cover-up by the OPCW. That does not equate to supporting Assad. What else has Aaron said that has been characterised as support for Assad? Since the fall of the Syrian government, Aaron has written and spoken about the change, including stating that "The overthrow of Syrian President Bashar al-Assad, and his replacement by the leader of an "Al Qaeda spin-off", fulfills a more than decade-long, US-led regime change campaign". Should we include this in Aaron's bio? Like his twitter posting, it is from a primary source. Burrobert (talk) 08:12, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

The Grayzone is known for it's apologetic coverage of the Assad government (multiple sources), and Aaron Maté worked at that website. I thought that denying one of Assad's more documented crimes indicates Assadism (that one may argue equates to simple campism), but if you think that denial of crimes doesn't equate to support of a regime then it won't be added unless a reliable source mentions it in some way. Keep in mind that people like Grover Furr deny the Katyn Massacre was done by Soviet forces, while being a Stalinist, or that Mintpress news denies the Ghouta attack while supporting Assad, so it seemed fairly obvious, not to mention on that Twitter thread a Syrian activist criticized Maté for claiming he never supported Assad despite the aforementioned Douma denial. You can add Maté's criticism of the US-backed opposition seizing Syria in "the goal to do a US-led coup" if you want. JPHC2003 (talk) 05:01, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

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