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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. SoWhy 09:57, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Lia Looveer

Lia Looveer (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

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There is too little published information about this subject in order to advance the article beyond a stub. Although the article describes the subject as an "Estonian émigré politician in Australia", the book The Liberals: a history of the NSW division of the Liberal party of Australia only mentions the subject in a picture and a footnote. The Four Deuces (talk) 05:48, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

• 'Delete' Keep her awards if true would make her notable but I can't find any sources verifying that. she also has no coverage in gnews also for her maiden name . LibStar (talk) 10:28, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

actually she has a British Empire medal. I change my vote. . LibStar (talk) 22:56, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

• Comment (for now) Information is not always in the expected places. There was virtually NO coverage of Baltic activities during the half century of Soviet occupation. Google book and news searches are not going go yield anything of much use. On the other hand, one can find references such as this, with mention of Looveer's 50 years of service at the Parliament of New South Wales site. The article has been mired in speculation as to whether she was a Nazi collaborator, this has detracted from any useful work on the article for some time.  PЄTЄRS VЄСRUМВА ►talk  15:12, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
• Keep Not enough morning coffee. Forgot about her being a recipient of the British Empire Medal. That award should make her notable enough and we should get back to positive activities on improving the article. I added the missing category to the article and a link to a page listing her as a recipient.  PЄTЄRS VЄСRUМВА ►talk  15:21, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
• Keep per Vecrumba, the fact that a half a dozen of people from around the globe edit war about aspects of the the biography of a dead woman clerily indicate that she is notable and her biography is of public interest Alex Bakharev (talk) 22:27, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
• Comment I can't tell if she would be notable enough for wikipedia purposes nor do I have an opinion about either the article should be deleted or not. But since I've been involved with the article somewhat, here is a citation so people who are better experts on WP:Notability issues could make up their mind easier, a citation from the State Library of New South Wales--Termer (talk) 03:10, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Lia Looveer was Secretary General of the United Council of Migrants from Communist Dominated Europe in Australia and was Secretary of the Captive Nations Council of New South Wales from 1968. Born in Estonia in 1920, she came to Australia with her husband and daughter in 1949. She settled in Sydney in 1952 and became a member of the Joint Baltic Committee. She was a member of the Board of the Estonian Society of Sydney and office manager of the Estonian weekly Meie Rodo, 1956-1966. Looveer joined the Liberal Party of Australia, N.S.W. Division, in 1955, and was a member of its Migrant Advisory Committee and of the federal Party's Advisory Committee on Ethnic Affairs, 1976-1981, as well as a member of the State Council over the same period. She is a foundation member of the Ethnic Communities' Council of N.S.W. Looveer was awarded the British Empire Medal in 1978 and received a Heritage Award from the Liberal Party of Australia, N.S.W. Division, in 2002.

• Comment While I agree that Looveer is notable because of her connection with Lyenko Urbanchich, David Clarke, and Douglas Darby and his son Michael, the problem is that there are no reliable sources that explain her relationship. Although ASIO investigated the group, I cannot find anything they wrote about Looveer. Also, the ADL, SPLC and Searchlight have no articles about her. The problem is that we do not have adequate sources at this time to establish notablity. The Four Deuces (talk) 06:05, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

What was that all about? first you nominate the article for deletion by saying not notable and now you claim Looveer is notable because of "her connection with right-wing extremists" even though "there are no reliable sources that explain her relationship"? From where do you get this "connection with right-wing extremists" in the first place? as none of the sources you listed do not even mention Looveer. So what is this AfD all about again?--Termer (talk) 06:33, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Although I think Looveer is notable, there are insufficient sources to create an article. There are sources that connect her with all the men I mentioned. The Four Deuces (talk) 06:48, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Notability is derived from sources, not what someone like you may think. If there are no sources that explain her relationship with these men, it is because this relationship is not considered notable if it even existed. That you think this relationship is notable is WP:OR. On the other hand Looveer is notable for receiving the BEM for services to ethnic communities, this is what the sources tell us. Note that the Liberal Party of Australia is considered centre-right and the right faction within the Liberal party isn't considered extreme by any stretch of the imagination. Also note that David Clarke (Australian politician), has successfully sued Melbourne University Press for defamation for imputations of political extremism, therefore I have removed a part of your statement for WP:BLP reasons. --Martin (talk) 10:09, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

The Clarke lawsuit has not been heard and it is primarily related to comments unrelated to his political position. I am not relying on anything written in that book but on The Liberals: a history of the NSW division of the Liberal party of Australia, which is a reliable source and has not been sued. While the LPNSW may be centre-right, it had a far right element as evidenced in the obituary of Lyenko Urbanchich in The Sydney Morning Herald: "Ardent Nazi took Liberal to extremes". The fact that Looveer received a BEM on the recommendation of the government of NSW does not make her notable but is evidence of notability. There are no sources explaining what her service was other than positions held. If there are sources explaining her role then an article could be sustained. But at present it is just a stub with less detail than a CV. The Four Deuces (talk) 15:42, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Never the less, Looveer is notable for her services to the ethnic communities, not for her alleged association with certain Liberal party figures as the lack of sources indicate. The only thing she had in common with Urbanchich is that they both were foreign born immigrants to Australia, to suggest otherwise is at best WP:SYNTH. --Martin (talk) 22:00, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

• Comment. I haven't looked into wider notability yet, but I would like to say that a British Empire Medal by itself is not enough to confer notability. It is a lower honour than MBE, which itself is lower than OBE, and even that is an honour that is routinely given to mid-level civil servants for simply doing their job. We'd have to be looking at CBE or higher before getting into the realms of automatic notability. Phil Bridger (talk) 22:12, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Well, this is interesting - a big discussion about my mother and no-one has contacted her family to check anything.

If one looks at Lia's history, it is evident that Lia's life was about fighting against communism, as it had destroyed her family and home. Lia spoke many languages (?more than 10), and thus was used in Greta Camp (NSW, Australia) as an announcer and translator. Whilst escaping from Estonia, she had to help put food on the table and undertook similar work; no . If you want to call her a Nazi Collaborator, then you should think of every single person who sold food to Germans at any stage, who wrote to anyone in Germany, etc. This is absolutely ludicrous.

I note that someone also mentioned that her connection to supposed "Nazi collaborators" in Australia was misguided - she worked with many other opponents of communism and proponents of freedom, hence her association with the liberal Party and key "right-wingers" such as Eileen Furley, Phillip Ruddock, Douglas Darby and others. Indeed, one week after being elected Prime Minister of Australia, Gough Whitlam actually phoned our home and tried to explain why the Labour Party of Australia could not recognise the independence of Estonia and the other Baltic states; I wonder how the current Labour Party sees that policy? Bottom line - Lia spent her life opposing communism and slavery, and fighting for freedom, mainly of her homeland. Any activities were related to that.

As with many small groups, Minutes of the Baltic Committee, Captive Nations Council, etc, copies were kept by Committee members and related organisations, but following the collapse of the Russian Communist Regime in 1990, many became of little interest and have disappeared with the mists of time.

Pity no-one checked with me before I got rid of many files after she died. However, many documents were handed to the Mitchell Librtary in Sydney, or the Estonian Archives.

PS Lia also worked in the fund-raising section of the Royal Alexandria Hospital for Children for over 25 years. She was on the Executive of the YWCA for a while, and worked with the Spastic and Crippled Children’s Associations (as my sister had been born handicapped).

Please contact me for further information. —Preceding unsigned comment added by JLooveer (talk • contribs) 00:41, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

Re: Well, this is interesting - a big discussion about my mother and no-one has contacted her family to check anything.

Unfortunately this is a general problem with wikipedia biographies. Subjects of articles or their relatives are often completely unaware about biographies written here, which can often suffer from very poor sourcing, defamation, and general vandalism. Not to mention that those poor quality wikipedia articles usually show up at the top of google search results.--Staberinde (talk) 12:25, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

I am deeply embarrassed appalled at the behaviour of some of the editors here who have said some really awful things in relation to your mother, without any basis other than her ethnicity it seems. I offer you my sincere apology. --Martin (talk) 01:16, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

I would second previous statement, just that I'm not embarrassed about the editors who are obviously here to make a point by labeling someone a nazi collaborator but about the community and its administrators in general who tolerate such smearing after attention was brought to it several times here and here. From my behalf, in case such ignorance continues, I'm going to have no regrets quitting or getting kicked out from the project. I'm just not interested in keeping good faith in bad faith speculations and accusations that get tolerated on Misplaced Pages.--Termer (talk) 02:13, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

You are correct, embarrassed is not the right word, I fixed my statement. --Martin (talk) 02:59, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages articles are based on reliable sources unlike academic studies and therefore cannot consider anything else. Martintg and Termer however chose to support the creation of this article. Unfortunately the sources provide very little information about Lia, except for information about her relationship with Lyenko Urbanchich, the Darbys and Clarke. If there are any academic studies that would improve the article then they should be provided. I think that insufficient sources exist for an article. Please look at Misplaced Pages policy and decide whether you want an article based on the minimal evidence available. Please read this section: . The Four Deuces (talk) 06:51, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

First you claim there are "no reliable sources that explain her relationship", now you claim there is. Please make up your mind. But I am glad you agree that Misplaced Pages articles are based on reliable sources, so please end your WP:SYNTHy speculations that there was some kind of relationship between her and Urbanchich beyond the fact that they both belonged to the Liberal party. She also associated with people like Phillip Ruddock. --Martin (talk) 08:23, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

To explain means to give a sufficiently detailed report about the reason for something, about why something happened and about a causal chain of events. All we can do without reliable sources is mention the relationship without explaining it. Reliable sources show that the subject was a founding member of the LEC that chose Urbanchich as its president and supported him when the party tried to expel him. Michael Darby's website mentions that she organized an event with Urbanchich, and David Clarke mentioned her in the NSW legislature. I could find no sources about her alleged association with Phillip Ruddock. I have no idea why you want an article when adequate sources do not exist. The Four Deuces (talk) 16:29, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

Four Deuces presented a reliable source on the talk page that shows that Looveer supported the war criminal and nazi collaborateur Urbanichich. As you replied it is clear that you are aware of the fact that there is a documented relationship between her and Urbanchich. But you seem to have forgotten that in your above attack post on Four Deuces.

There is also a reliable source for that she worked for a Nazi propaganda station. The attempts to whitewash these connection and to effectively censor the article are appalling. You are willing to introduce completely unsourced information in the article, and then complain when other editors introduce sourced information you simply do not like.

Anyway, Delete as there are indeed only miminal sources, and the only event this woman is notable for is her support of the war criminal and nazi collaborateur Urbanchich. Her fifteen minutes, but not enough for a Misplaced Pages article. This is evident from the fact that the academic study of the party she made her career in thinks that it is worth to mention her for only this connection. Pantherskin (talk) 15:24, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

Keep - after reconsidering that we have several sources that establish her notability. These include the dedicated entries at the "The Australian Women's Register" by the University of Melbourne, and her biographical entry at the University Library Tallinn. We also have sources that discuss some of her achievements (i.e. the support of the war criminal Urbanchich). So overall enough to keep the article, and hopefully more sources will be forthcoming in the future. It seems that some more information can be found at the National Archives and the University Library in Canberra. Pantherskin (talk) 19:50, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

(od) To JLooveer's earlier, I did write to the Australian Estonian society asking if they had any materials they could share. I have not heard back yet.  PЄTЄRS VЄСRUМВА ►talk  13:46, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

I've heard back and will follow up on making biographical and other archival materials available in a manner that can be appropriately cited for WP. It's fair to say there's more than enough available to make for a good article, although in its current state its use (that is, information in private possession) might well be construed as WP:OR. I'd suggest the AfD be closed. I'd also request that editors not engage in inflammatory comments such as "the only event this woman is notable for is her support of the war criminal and nazi collaborateur Urbanchich". She's been decorated by the Commonwealth and Estonia, so let's cut the crap.  PЄTЄRS VЄСRUМВА ►talk  18:22, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

Well, that is what the academic study of her party thinks she is notable for. Pantherskin (talk) 18:42, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

You cannot write an article based on papers in private hands - that is original research, and you should really consider whether it is fair to the subject to have an article when scant sources exist. It is actually not correct that she was decorated by the Commonwealth (either the Commonwealth of Nations or the Commonwealth of Australia), but was awarded a medal by the Queen on the advice of the premier of New South Wales. More than thirty other residents of NSW were awarded the medal in the same year (1978). The Four Deuces (talk) 19:39, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

What is point you are trying to make in regard to her decoration? Australia is a Constitutional monarchy, the Queen is the Australia's sovereign head of state. --Martin (talk) 20:11, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

I think the point is fairly obvious. A claim was made above that the subject was decorated by the Commonwealth, but it fact she was decorated by the Queen on the advice of the premier of New South Wales, which doesn't involve either commonwealth. That may be a pedantic point, but it is accurate. Phil Bridger (talk) 20:21, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

Australia is a federation where the states retain certain constitutional powers, such as policing, the judiciary and nominating people for awards. When the Queen of Australia bestows an award to a person nominated by one of the states, she does so as the sovereign head of the Commonwealth of Australia. --Martin (talk) 09:28, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

Actually she does so in her role as head of state of New South Wales. Note that the sovereign bestowed honors on residents of NSW before Australia was formed. The Four Deuces (talk) 12:34, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

• Delete Subject lacks sufficient notability for inclusion. I agree with Phil Bridger about British Empire Medal, and 5th class of the Order of the White Star doesn't seem sufficient either. Serious NPOV concerns in relation to this article (1/3 is about working in that radio station, not to mention claims made in talk page), and massive disputes it has created, only strengthen my view that it should be removed. Finally I would strongly suggest courtesy blanking this AfD after closing.--Staberinde (talk) 13:11, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.