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== |
== Views in Argentina == | ||
CTR+F and search for "el che"; my point is that his monicker, war name, nickname, or whatever, in spanish is El Che; The Che, not just Che. Thoughts? | |||
I travelled extensively in Argentina and the views on Guevara were unanimous; he is rarely mentioned there and is certainly not a source of pride. Many I met described him as a "psychopath" who enjoyed killing people. He apparently told his father that he "enjoyed the smell of cordite and blood" after he had shot someone through the head. | |||
Not sure if this is worth extra exploration. ] (]) 17:03, 7 September 2023 (UTC) | |||
:It definitely isn't, I for one know plenty of Argentinians that are in awe of Guevara. Hearsay is not worth being mentioned on Misplaced Pages. ] (]) 12:45, 22 October 2023 (UTC) | |||
::Che was a psychopath who enjoyed killing people. He was also a homophobic and racist who hated black people. This is not hearsay. He publicly executed innocent Cubans by gunshot in front of many witnesses as a warning to anyone who tried to oppose their new government. ] (]) 11:55, 25 December 2023 (UTC) | |||
<s>Striking out material from block evader.</s> ] (]) 00:23, 22 March 2024 (UTC) | |||
:{{ping|Grandpallama}} Although I agree that the heresay is irrelevant to our article, I looked at the IP and saw no evidence of block evasion. Is there a link that shows it? If so, it would be helpful if that is mentioned on the IP's talk page in case that editor continues making edits. --] (]) 00:39, 22 March 2024 (UTC) | |||
::], the editor is unlikely to show up with this particular IP again, as it's not static. That said, it's been pointed out to me that the age of the edit is such that I'm probably causing confusion more than helping (which makes sense); I only noticed today that he'd become active again for a while last year and was clearly overzealous ]. I've reverted my strikethrough. ] (]) 06:25, 22 March 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::Okay. --] (]) 06:28, 22 March 2024 (UTC) | |||
== Che was a mass murderer == | |||
Please add that Che Guevara was a mass murderer in the first sentence of this article. He should be put in the same category as Hitler. the sentence should read as follows: | |||
was an Argentine ] Mass Murderer, physician, author, ] leader, diplomat, and ]. ] (]) 04:00, 19 December 2023 (UTC) | |||
:When was he convicted of being a mass murderer? ] (]) 05:39, 19 December 2023 (UTC) | |||
::in Cuba he lined up innocent people against a wall “pared” and executed them without a trial for the public to witness. My Cuban family witnessed these executions and knew people who disappeared. He forced at gunpoint the removal of families from their homes. The only way to enforce socialism is to take away everything the people own by execution and physical violence. No one will willingly give the government their possessions. What I stated are facts. ] (]) 11:51, 25 December 2023 (UTC) | |||
:::Then it shouldn't be hard for you to provide some reliable sources here. Facts aren't hard to find in reliable sources. ] (]) 12:48, 25 December 2023 (UTC) | |||
::::Lots of sources exist, but they're very easy for you to ignore. ] (]) 01:23, 5 June 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::If you have sources, ]. ] (]) 00:46, 9 June 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::Alvaro Vargas LLosa, ''The Killing Machine; Che Guevara, from Communist Firebrand to Capitalist Brand"'' (Independent Insitiute:July 11, 2005, https://www.independent.org/news/article.asp?id=1535) | |||
::::::Guillermina Stutter Schneider. ''Che Was a Racist, Homophobe, and Mass Murderer'' (Human Progress: December 15, 2017, https://humanprogress.org/the-truth-about-che-guevara-racist-homophobe-and-mass-murderer/) | |||
::::::Troy J. Sacquety, ''Che Guevara: A False Idol for Revolutionaries'' (U.S Army Special Forces Command History Office: 2008, https://arsof-history.org/articles/v4n4_false_idol_page_1.html#fn:2) | |||
::::::These three sources support the idea that Che was ruthless, brutal, and guilty of more than enough human rights violations to earn multiple in-depth paragraphs for this article. | |||
::::::] (]) 03:30, 24 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
== |
== Semantic Error == | ||
May I suggest the account of the photo op is modified to reflect the fact that many who were present deny that the photo is genuine. This is reflected in the article on Rodriguez. This article might be an appropriate citation - https://www.dnaindia.com/world/report-documentary-alleges-last-photo-of-che-is-fake-1126943 | |||
<ref></ref>{{Edit semi-protected|Che Guevara|answered=yes}} | |||
:: I am not a specialist of this topic but once saw a documentary where a man with an American accent and identifying as a person from an alphabet agency claimed he had shot Guevara. He said he made sure he'd shoot him in the back so he could claim Guevara was trying to escape. That's all I remember. Maybe he could get a bonus for shooting him, who knows. ] (]) 05:25, 25 December 2021 (UTC) | |||
Please change "Cause of death Execution by shooting" to | |||
"Cause of death Elimination by shooting" | |||
Che Guevara's capture and immediate execution without a legal trial would be more accurately described as an extrajudicial killing which is considered a form of murder. This differs from a lawful execution which typically involves a formal trial. ] (]) 05:31, 26 January 2024 (UTC) | |||
==Use of the term "peasant army guide" to describe Eutimio Guerra== | |||
:{{done}}<!-- Template:ESp --> I replaced it with ] (per what's covered in the article's body). ] (]) 15:17, 26 January 2024 (UTC) | |||
::Can you also take care of the "Battles/wars" section, where he was labeled to be executed after a conviction. ] (]) 10:21, 17 April 2024 (UTC) | |||
== Interview with Tucker Carlson - Ex-CIA Agent Felix Rodriguez on Che Guevara death == | |||
There is a tendency on anti-Guevara websites to describe Eutimio Guerra as a "peasant army guide" who was murdered by Guevara. In reality he was a pro-Castrist guerrilla, acting mainly as a guide, who was executed after working with the government forces, which the guerrillas classified as treason. The episode is known principally from Guevara's diaries where he is described as acting as a guide for the rebels, and is mentioned in Luther's Critical Lives, which states his role with the rebels was mainly as a guide. I have amended the text to show this. ] (]) 08:19, 8 August 2021 (UTC) | |||
Ex-CIA Agent on Capturing Che Guevara, Who Truly Killed JFK, and Election Predictions | |||
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwohQJrJeo8&ab_channel=TuckerCarlson | |||
== Che was a racist homophobic mass murderer == | |||
Why are the concentration camps he created for gay and disabled people left out of this article? | |||
Why is there no mention of his anti-black or anti-native racist rhetoric and policies? This article looks like it was written by some 19 year old hipster. WTF! '''(unsigned by IP)''' | |||
] was executed in 1967 in a remote Bolivian village. One of the last people to speak to him alive was CIA officer ]. Here’s his story. | |||
:The "concentration camps he created for gay and disabled people" didn't exist. There was some persecution of gay people by the Cuban government in the late 1960's, but Guevara was already outside of the country when this had started, so it can't reasonably be put in the article. It's worth remembering, this was at a time when the British government was still arresting people for homosexual activity. | |||
Felix Rodriguez worked for the CIA until 1976. | |||
:Guevara's only anti-black statements on record are those he made as very young man when travelling through South America. For an Argentine man born in the 20's, he was about as anti-racist as it's possible to be. See for an analysis. There is no record of any anti-black policies by Guevara, so no mention of this appears in the article. | |||
] (]) 16:38, 7 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
:As for mass murderer, yes, he killed deserters and traitors in cold blood. That is in the article. After the war he was responsible for executing members of the Batista forces who had committed atrocities. That's in the article. We could ask what the US and UK governments did to deserters and traitors during WWII? The answer is that they executed them. The trials of Batista's soldiers and secret police were explicitly modelled on the Nuremberg trials. | |||
:That's not a reliable source. ] (]) 16:57, 7 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
:It's ok to disagree with Guevara without automatically believing everything negative that is written about him, this article is solidly based on the most reliable sources on Guevara written by respectable historians. If anything it leans a leans a little anti, as a lot of the academic scholarship in English has something of a right-wing bias, but wikipedia's job is to reflect the available scholarship. ] (]) 05:42, 9 August 2021 (UTC) | |||
::It is his own testimony!!! ] (]) 16:58, 7 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::That's not how ] works. ] (]) 16:59, 7 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::Edit conflict, "please provide the acronym that supports your logic". LOL. ] (]) 17:01, 7 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::Specifically see points 1 and 2: | |||
::::{{tq|1. The material is neither unduly self-serving nor an exceptional claim 2. It does not involve claims about third parties;}} ] (]) 17:01, 7 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::Wow, you know how to make pretty colored text. I am impressed. LOL. Thanks for making my day, ] LOL. ] (]) 17:02, 7 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
;South Park: Officer Barbrady - There's nothing to see here. | |||
== Misleading == | |||
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LW6RWSiR88s&ab_channel=MiamiBadBoyBOSS | |||
You have him sounding like he was a good revolutionist. He was for Marxism and Socialism. He led Cubans into a communist country. He's not a person to be idolized unless you hate freedom, liberties and the glory of independent thought. ] (]) 16:58, 4 December 2021 (UTC) | |||
:The article is well sourced. If you have other well sourced material you feel could be usefully added to the article, feel free to do so. ] (]) 22:12, 6 December 2021 (UTC) | |||
] (]) 18:37, 7 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
:: He/she wants an evaluation which is not the purpose of the exercise here. The rather restrictive version of Marxism/Leninism and Socialism of the historic phase before 1989 created some hatred in people. But today is another phase in history. ] (]) 05:20, 25 December 2021 (UTC) | |||
== Lies & propaganda surrounding Che. == | |||
== Geovara religion == | |||
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/che-guevara-executing-women/ | |||
I wanted to know which religion did he followed ] (]) 09:30, 11 February 2022 (UTC) | |||
Example number 1: The link listed above where the accusation of him “Killing 2 woman” came out including him being accused of being a mass murderer (which is false, the people executed weren't innocent and were those working with Batista, war criminals etc. | |||
== History == | |||
Example number 2: The accusation that he was responsible for the UMAP camps/Imprisonment of homosexuals. | |||
tommy smith v jonka los ne rang bhed ke mudde par kis parkar antrashtriya samuday ka dhan aakershit kita hindi midium ] (]) 11:09, 25 February 2022 (UTC) | |||
in 1965 Che resigned his position as minister of industries and went to the Congo. He wasn't in Cuba during the operations of the camps and nor was he involved, Castro later took accountability for these camps stating how he failed the LGBT community in Cuba. ] (]) 16:40, 9 November 2024 (UTC) |
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Views in Argentina
I travelled extensively in Argentina and the views on Guevara were unanimous; he is rarely mentioned there and is certainly not a source of pride. Many I met described him as a "psychopath" who enjoyed killing people. He apparently told his father that he "enjoyed the smell of cordite and blood" after he had shot someone through the head. Not sure if this is worth extra exploration. 86.153.86.158 (talk) 17:03, 7 September 2023 (UTC)
- It definitely isn't, I for one know plenty of Argentinians that are in awe of Guevara. Hearsay is not worth being mentioned on Misplaced Pages. 2A02:1811:C1F:8200:3564:4278:E78B:F860 (talk) 12:45, 22 October 2023 (UTC)
- Che was a psychopath who enjoyed killing people. He was also a homophobic and racist who hated black people. This is not hearsay. He publicly executed innocent Cubans by gunshot in front of many witnesses as a warning to anyone who tried to oppose their new government. Hectorgavilla (talk) 11:55, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
Striking out material from block evader. Grandpallama (talk) 00:23, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
- @Grandpallama: Although I agree that the heresay is irrelevant to our article, I looked at the IP and saw no evidence of block evasion. Is there a link that shows it? If so, it would be helpful if that is mentioned on the IP's talk page in case that editor continues making edits. --David Tornheim (talk) 00:39, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
- David Tornheim, the editor is unlikely to show up with this particular IP again, as it's not static. That said, it's been pointed out to me that the age of the edit is such that I'm probably causing confusion more than helping (which makes sense); I only noticed today that he'd become active again for a while last year and was clearly overzealous in wanting to scrub his unproductive contributions. I've reverted my strikethrough. Grandpallama (talk) 06:25, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
- Okay. --David Tornheim (talk) 06:28, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
- David Tornheim, the editor is unlikely to show up with this particular IP again, as it's not static. That said, it's been pointed out to me that the age of the edit is such that I'm probably causing confusion more than helping (which makes sense); I only noticed today that he'd become active again for a while last year and was clearly overzealous in wanting to scrub his unproductive contributions. I've reverted my strikethrough. Grandpallama (talk) 06:25, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
Che was a mass murderer
Please add that Che Guevara was a mass murderer in the first sentence of this article. He should be put in the same category as Hitler. the sentence should read as follows:
was an Argentine Marxist Mass Murderer, physician, author, guerrilla leader, diplomat, and military theorist. Hectorgavilla (talk) 04:00, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
- When was he convicted of being a mass murderer? HiLo48 (talk) 05:39, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
- in Cuba he lined up innocent people against a wall “pared” and executed them without a trial for the public to witness. My Cuban family witnessed these executions and knew people who disappeared. He forced at gunpoint the removal of families from their homes. The only way to enforce socialism is to take away everything the people own by execution and physical violence. No one will willingly give the government their possessions. What I stated are facts. Hectorgavilla (talk) 11:51, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
- Then it shouldn't be hard for you to provide some reliable sources here. Facts aren't hard to find in reliable sources. StephenMacky1 (talk) 12:48, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
- Lots of sources exist, but they're very easy for you to ignore. 73.100.184.209 (talk) 01:23, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
- If you have sources, WP:PROVEIT. Flounder fillet (talk) 00:46, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
- Alvaro Vargas LLosa, The Killing Machine; Che Guevara, from Communist Firebrand to Capitalist Brand" (Independent Insitiute:July 11, 2005, https://www.independent.org/news/article.asp?id=1535)
- If you have sources, WP:PROVEIT. Flounder fillet (talk) 00:46, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
- Lots of sources exist, but they're very easy for you to ignore. 73.100.184.209 (talk) 01:23, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
- Then it shouldn't be hard for you to provide some reliable sources here. Facts aren't hard to find in reliable sources. StephenMacky1 (talk) 12:48, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
- in Cuba he lined up innocent people against a wall “pared” and executed them without a trial for the public to witness. My Cuban family witnessed these executions and knew people who disappeared. He forced at gunpoint the removal of families from their homes. The only way to enforce socialism is to take away everything the people own by execution and physical violence. No one will willingly give the government their possessions. What I stated are facts. Hectorgavilla (talk) 11:51, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
- Guillermina Stutter Schneider. Che Was a Racist, Homophobe, and Mass Murderer (Human Progress: December 15, 2017, https://humanprogress.org/the-truth-about-che-guevara-racist-homophobe-and-mass-murderer/)
- Troy J. Sacquety, Che Guevara: A False Idol for Revolutionaries (U.S Army Special Forces Command History Office: 2008, https://arsof-history.org/articles/v4n4_false_idol_page_1.html#fn:2)
- These three sources support the idea that Che was ruthless, brutal, and guilty of more than enough human rights violations to earn multiple in-depth paragraphs for this article.
- Aldrich.Faithful (talk) 03:30, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
Semantic Error
Cite error: There are <ref>
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Please change "Cause of death Execution by shooting" to "Cause of death Elimination by shooting"
Che Guevara's capture and immediate execution without a legal trial would be more accurately described as an extrajudicial killing which is considered a form of murder. This differs from a lawful execution which typically involves a formal trial. Thirdfemalelead (talk) 05:31, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
- Done I replaced it with extrajudicial killing (per what's covered in the article's body). M.Bitton (talk) 15:17, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
- Can you also take care of the "Battles/wars" section, where he was labeled to be executed after a conviction. LackOfInspiration1 (talk) 10:21, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
Interview with Tucker Carlson - Ex-CIA Agent Felix Rodriguez on Che Guevara death
Ex-CIA Agent on Capturing Che Guevara, Who Truly Killed JFK, and Election Predictions
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwohQJrJeo8&ab_channel=TuckerCarlson
Che Guevara was executed in 1967 in a remote Bolivian village. One of the last people to speak to him alive was CIA officer Felix Rodriguez (former CIA agent). Here’s his story.
Felix Rodriguez worked for the CIA until 1976.
Ironcurtain2 (talk) 16:38, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
- That's not a reliable source. Simonm223 (talk) 16:57, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
- It is his own testimony!!! Ironcurtain2 (talk) 16:58, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
- That's not how WP:ABOUTSELF works. Simonm223 (talk) 16:59, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
- Edit conflict, "please provide the acronym that supports your logic". LOL. Ironcurtain2 (talk) 17:01, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
- Specifically see points 1 and 2:
1. The material is neither unduly self-serving nor an exceptional claim 2. It does not involve claims about third parties;
Simonm223 (talk) 17:01, 7 May 2024 (UTC)- Wow, you know how to make pretty colored text. I am impressed. LOL. Thanks for making my day, User:Simonm223 LOL. Ironcurtain2 (talk) 17:02, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
- That's not how WP:ABOUTSELF works. Simonm223 (talk) 16:59, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
- It is his own testimony!!! Ironcurtain2 (talk) 16:58, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
- South Park
- Officer Barbrady - There's nothing to see here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LW6RWSiR88s&ab_channel=MiamiBadBoyBOSS
Ironcurtain2 (talk) 18:37, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
Lies & propaganda surrounding Che.
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/che-guevara-executing-women/
Example number 1: The link listed above where the accusation of him “Killing 2 woman” came out including him being accused of being a mass murderer (which is false, the people executed weren't innocent and were those working with Batista, war criminals etc.
Example number 2: The accusation that he was responsible for the UMAP camps/Imprisonment of homosexuals. in 1965 Che resigned his position as minister of industries and went to the Congo. He wasn't in Cuba during the operations of the camps and nor was he involved, Castro later took accountability for these camps stating how he failed the LGBT community in Cuba. Sproogli (talk) 16:40, 9 November 2024 (UTC)
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