Talk:Armenian Revolutionary Federation: Difference between revisions

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Revision as of 02:18, 16 February 2007 editFedayee (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users6,870 edits →Some statements from prominent ARF member ← Previous edit		Latest revision as of 03:53, 3 December 2024 edit undoWhisperToMe (talk \| contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users661,855 edits My decision was to add both Asia and Europe portals due to the party's headquarters being in the modern Armenian state
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	{{~~peerreview~~}}		{{tph}}
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	Searches for ], ] and ] should redirect here.
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	== Missing section: Russia ==
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	For an organization established in Russia, by the way Tiflis in 1892 was within Russian boarders, there is no information about the activities until the establishment of ]. I was hoping there would be a section devoted to that period. But I guess clamp down on Armenian activities (1903) did not effect the ARF !--] 05:22, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
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			\|action3link=Talk:Armenian Revolutionary Federation#GA Sweeps
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	:Done and OttomanReference, when you make a big edit, do not put MINOR edit, it does not make sense when you add a section and put minor for the edit...lol. And please be a little civil on your sarcastic accusative comments. ] 08:13, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

			\|action4 = GAR
	== GA passed ==
			\|action4date = 22:28, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
	I see no outstanding problems with the article -- a lot of hard work has obviously been done here.
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			Searches for ], ] and ] should redirect here.
	As far as I can tell with my limited knowledge, the article meats all GA criterias. The only one I can not be sure of, is whether it covers all important aspects and is completely neutral and unbiased. To ensure that, I recommend a peer review.

	]-] 00:59, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

	:Great! Nice job everyone especially Fedayee. Next stop: Featured article :) -- ] 01:28, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
	: Good job. Specially Fedayee. ] 03:02, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

	== Nagorno-Karabakh ==

	Do we need to start NK transferred/left discussion all over again? Why cannot we choose some neutral wording? ] 13:32, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
	:Please tell me how on earth did you decide that without settling the qustion in the NK article you can impose your version here?--<big>''' ] '''</font></big><sup><small>]</sup></small> 14:48, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

	: I can ask the same question to you. Why you decided to introduce your version of events, when there are conflicting views on the issue even among pro-Armenian sources. I don’t insist on my version, as long as we can find a compromise wording. ] 17:54, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
	::I haven't written a single word in this article. I merely reverted your additions based on my recollection that the discussion on the NK page is still ongoing. Have you noticed that you designate all non-Armenian sources that don't agree with your pov as ''pro-Armenian''? Somewhat provocative if you ask me.--<big>''' ] '''</font></big><sup><small>]</sup></small> 18:10, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

	::: As far as I remember I labelled only Walker as such, and it is not just my opinion. I have sources on that. The discussion on NK page with regard to that issue finished, the article on NK has a compromise wording, and so should this one, in my opinion. ] 19:32, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

	:::: I don't know about the discussion in the NK page but I don't see how the CIA site could not be trusted or be wrong about it. The CIA is more notable than other sources. It wasn't even me who wrote about it or added the source...it was there and sourced when I first read the article. In any case, it is true that Moscow officially handed NK to Azerbaijan to please Turkish authorities, so that Turkey would turn to communism. - ] 22:13, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

	::::: Check the Kavburo resolution. And I presented 3 sources stating that NK was left in Azerbaijan, and not transfered. I suggest to use compromise wording to end the dispute, as it will grow much bigger and involve many people. ] 07:22, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

	== Stop it!!! ==

	Stop spreading edit wars to this article. The CIA is as credible as it gets and that version will be the one included. The CIA itself works on intelligence who multiple sources so what it says is most probably the truth. Why else would the population be 90% Armenian at the time yet be under Azeri control? It was handed, stop these edit wars when the issue has been talked over a thousand times in the NKR article. And that addition by Dacy was nothign but vandalism to purposely de-stabilize the article. Stop this nonsense. - ] 21:16, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

	My reference goes to Armenian scholar. It is well-known fact - I mean terrorist activity of ARF - you can find it in works of other Armenian scholars, for example, G.Libaridian. So, don't throw accusation. I remain civil.--] 02:52, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

	:This article is about the party, not the view of an Armenian that is all of a sudden accepted as scholar because it suits Azeri POV. I guess all those other people against Azeri POV are not notable at all. I guess the CIA are mindless idiots who gather false intelligence. I have already stated that they possibly participated in assassinations, I have mentioned that there are claims of ties to JCAG (a known guerrilla organ operating vis-a-vis of ASALA). Let the reader judge for himself if these are acts of terrorism. We do not need to feed them what some scholar thinks of its actions as. You should very well know the saying: "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter". Stop disrupting this article. - ] 03:01, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

	For you every scholar is idiot, if it does no match your POV. I told you it is not one scholar - several. And what Papazian is actually saying is that about ARF revolutionary activity - let's exactly a reader judge - what was it - freedom fight or terrorism. I give facts - well-known facts--] 03:05, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

	It takes a little satisfaction for some POV pushers to use Papazian to support a point. You have no knowledge of what you are talking about so it is best for you to come clean and stop this revert war. In the 30s, a war of world has engaged between the Dashnaks and Armenian bolshevists. Papazian work from the first pages makes it clear on the purpouses of the work itself. While in the 30s Armenian intellectuals in the West have started publishing pressures requesting the intervention of the West and the revival of the possible reinsertion of Armenia back on the table for a possible liberation and respect of the allied promesses after the war. (See Turkey reference to Montreux convention and its blockage to it) As a result Bolshevic Armenians with co-authoring gimmiks have published works having attacked the ARF and claiming Bolshevism to be the only way Armenia has been liberated.

	On p. 55, this is what Papazian writes.

	"The patent criticism leveled by the Dashnagtzoutune at the present Soviet Armenia is that, it is not independent, and it is a communistic and not a national government. These criticisms have no ground to stand on. The Dashnags themselves, while they were at the helm, tried to place Armenia under the protection of some great Power -- the United States for one -- through the League of Nations. The mandate of any great Power, if it had materialized, would have meant a limitation of Armenian independence.

	Armenia has now secured its political existence, not by accepting the mandate of a great Power, but by joining hands, as one of the federated republics, with the great commonwealth of nations known as the Soviet Union."

	Papazian answer, with the book was during his time a current event, an answer to Western Armenian intellectuals who were trying in the 30s to bring back the independent Armenia from ashes.

	So stop edit warring; and you are hardly convincing in your pretention that this is about removing sources, as Papazian work is known and recorded to be a bolshevic propaganda, the worst way the Bolshevics have found to vilify in the 30s. ] ] 07:15, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

	And what about Libaridian and other works. Of course, it is also "propaganda", in your view.--] 14:57, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

	:Look, I don't have a clue of what the hell you're talking about. What I know though, is that you have no idea of Armenian history, beside your stupid: "Hit on them," and your intellectual masturbation, to make it sound as if you are simply adding sources. Don't push me to retaliate, because we both know that there is hardly any single Azeri article which is not tainted and that between both uf us, you're the one who has most to lose. But if you think you can outsmart me, go ahead be my guest. ] ] 17:48, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

	I don't claim to know anything about the ARF and Armenian history beyond what I read in this article, but I would still like to make a few comments:

	Though I am really impressed by the work that has been done on this article, I am going to have to side with Dacy69 to a certain extent here. There are still some POV issues in this article, as it is pro-ARF and pro-Armenian. And if there are notable sources calling the ARF terrorists then that should be mentionened in the article, even if they are only propaganda or whatever, that way the reader can in fact decide whether they are in fact freedom fighters or terrorists. Again, I don't claim to know whether or not these sources are in fact notable, but if they are their view should be mentioned per ]: "NPOV says that the article should fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by a verifiable source, and should do so in proportion to the prominence of each."--] 16:41, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

	:Dear Carabinieri, aside from POV issues, Dacy69 intrusion has nothing to do with this. I don’t care about ARF, like all other political affiliations like the Hinshaks or Ramgavars. What I can comment on, is that Dacy69 has copypasted the stuff he found from the web, when he didn’t even know the material he has pasted. If he had the book written by Papazian, it would be even worst, because he would have quoted en connaissance de cause, which would mean that he would have used a bogus material knowingly. The work in question has not been criticised in a positive way by the academia in the time. Not only among Armenians. George F. Gracey critic of the work is one such example (published in International Affairs (Royal Institute of International Affairs 1931-1939) Vol. 14, No. 4 (Jul., 1935), pp. 584-586).

	:Coming to the terrorist word, the modern concept of terrorist/terrorism was used first in 1947. A work published in 1934 can not support the usage of a word, when the modern notion did not exist. Beside, like I have said, Dacy69 has no knowledge of the ARF, his purposes here is simply introducing such bogus sources he fished from dubious sites. If you pay attention to the quotation from the work I have provided. The work claims that an Independent Armenia would not have been free, while a Soviet Armenian IS free. Without knowing the Armenian situation of the 30s, one can not post such a quote there.

	:Here a historic for you. In the 30s, Armenian intellectuals highly supported by the ARF have brought back “The republic of Armenia” to be discussed. It was very harshly answered by Bolshevic Armenians in the press.

	:In this context, Papazian write in that work.

	:''The patent criticism leveled by the Dashnagtzoutune at the present Soviet Armenia is that, it is not independent, and it is a communistic and not a national government. These criticisms have no ground to stand on. The Dashnags themselves, while they were at the helm, tried to place Armenia under the protection of some great Power -- the United States for one -- through the League of Nations. The mandate of any great Power, if it had materialized, would have meant a limitation of Armenian independence.''

	:''Armenia has now secured its political existence, not by accepting the mandate of a great Power, but by joining hands, as one of the federated republics, with the great commonwealth of nations known as the Soviet Union.''

	:It failed, at the end of the 30s, with the threats of the World war, the negotiations stopped, on such threats; Armenians have turned from the request for an independent Armenia, to the request on Western Armenia which was since the Treaty of Lausanne attached to Turkey. Armenia requested to the center government of the URSS for a representation, Georgia jumped in too. It was waited until 1945, when the world war ended, and the claim was officially submitted and rejected on May 30, 1953 (see: A Calendar of Soviet Treaties, 1917-1957 by Robert M. Slusser, Jan F. Triska; Stanford University Press, 1959 p. 298) on the basis of the Montreux convention.

	:There is a long history of word wars, between two Armenian factions in the press, which ended up in the 50s, and in a lesser extend in the 60s. Papazian was a Bolshevic Armenian, Darounian himself engaged on such war himself with his works. Yeh, the famous author who also accused members of the US government during WII with collaboration with the NAZI.

			== Paragraph irrelevant to heading ==
	:While I have engaged in Armeno/Azeri historic stuff there, I can confirm that my knowledge of Western Armenian in comparaison to Eastern Armenians is on the ratio of about 5:1, while Dacy obvious has very little knowledge of Eastern Armenians, and NO knowledge of Western Armenians.

			The following is the first paragraph under the heading "Young Turk Revolution":
	:The edits now about Nagorno Karabakh, this is also one other example. Do you side with Dacy there too? In all fairness, how am I supposed to assume good faith there? Check the diff. This article is about the ARF, and things are written this in mind. The section of Nagorno-Karabakh is not about the history of NK, when it was established, but rather the role of the ARF in connection to the NK. Which means, that even in the NK, the subject is the ARF. So OBVIOUSLY, the article has to start with the ARF xyz in NK. But Azeri users, concerned with every single Armenian related article, would be using this article too with such an edit on the purposes of giving this impression: “Remember it was established in the Azerbaijan SSR” and this PASSING before the business that the ARF had to do in NK. ] ] 18:26, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

			''In the 1890s the party used ] against the ] and Russia with the goal of gaining an independent nation, more well known attacks occurred against Bedros Kapamciyan, the mayor of ] who was assassinated in December 1912, and the assassination of ] ] in ] on December 24, 1933.''

	::Indeed going along with what Carabineri said, I would like to provide at least one reference, which should be reflected on this page:
	:::''By the late 1970s, the diaspora and Soviet Armenia achieved a modus vivendi in their relations. With communism in the Armenian SSR becoming more and more tolerable to diaspora (in part because after 1965, the Soviets allowed commemorations of the genocide), and with a new generation of diasporic Armenians demanding '''greater militancy''' in the struggle for genocide recognition, the '''Dashnaks''' shelved their anti-Soviet orientation and entered a new phase in their national crusade. '''Armenian terrorism (primarily against Turkish targets)''' won international attention for their cause and helped to rally the diaspora to demand international recognition of the genocide, albeit mostly via diplomatic efforts'' (Yossi Shain, Aharon Barth, "Diasporas and International Relations Theory", ''International Organization'', Vol. 57, No. 3 (Summer, 2003), p. 468). ''One scholar notes that '''"the true audience of Armenian terrorism ''' the Armenian diaspora, whose fraying culture is constituted to a remarkable degree by old stories"'' (Khachig Tololyan, "Cultural Narrative and the Motivation of the Terrorist", ''Journal of Strategic Studies'', 10(4), 1987, pp. 217-233 as cited by Yossi Shain and Aharon Barth above). ] 18:40, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
	::::Where is the reference about ARF, ASALA was a recognized terrorist organization. The terrorist acts were comitted by ASALA which has its own article. Where are the quotes about ARF and terrorism. ] ] 18:54, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
	:::::It's highlighted right above: ''Dashnaks shelved their anti-Soviet orientation and entered a new phase in their national crusade'', preceded by sentence on militancy and followed by the sentence on terrorism, which falls right into the context. I will bring other quotes in a few. Thanks. ] 18:58, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
	::::::The link between the two phrases is yours. The authors are making a historic of what happened in the 70s. The Tashnak were anti-Soviet, where are the Soviet targets? What you are doing is called distortion. ] ] 19:05, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
	:::::::The quote above is a whole paragraph from the article by Yossi Shain and Aharon Barth, without omissions in between. So the sentences are brought exactly in the order listed in the publication. Please, read the article, before making presumptions. Thanks. ] 19:15, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
	::::::::The quote comes from a resumé of the events in the 70s, and from a section regarding the Diaspora. The Armenian terrorism allude to ASALA, "their" refers to the Diaspora. Stop insulting readers intelligence. ] ] 19:26, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
	:::::::::Some refreshment on English might be helpful: ''Dashnaks shelved '''their''' anti-Soviet orientation and entered a new phase in '''their''' national crusade''. Clearly your objective is to object to any evidence provided, hence I have no interest of arguing further, the quote is presented in its entirety, so I will let the audience input their opinions. ] 20:01, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

			Only the incident in 1912 is relevant to that segment and the source used is by a Turkish nationalist author. I would remove that short paragraph completely but I'd, if it has to stay, at least call for a better source and move it somewhere else in the article. ] (]) 11:17, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
	Look, I have that paper you cite.

			== Russophilia ==
	You are for sure distorting it. It only takes to post the paragraph preceding and the one following the one you have pasted, to see that my interpretation is the correct one.

			Hello,
	'''''Within the Soviet Union, a semi-autonomous Armenian Soviet Socialist Republic ASSR was created on onesixth of the territory of historic Armenia. With time, the ASSR developed into the most homogeneous of all the Soviet republics. With the city of Yerevan emerging as the Armenians’ “cultural center of national identity,” ASSR leaders claimed to speak for the “authentic homeland” and the Armenian people as a whole. This claim was not readily accepted by segments of the diaspora, especially by Dashnaks who rejected the Soviet Armenian regime. Yet even the Dashnaks had to accept the fact that Soviet Armenia was a homeland base, however truncated, and had to adjust themselves to Moscow’s domination. The exiled Dashnaks also faced the strong desire of other genocide survivors to keep the Armenian people unified despite their divisions and dispersion. Soviet propaganda manipulated the ASSR, as the source of Armenian national pride and peoplehood, in mobilizing diasporic financial assistance. Recognizing that Armenian independence was a distant dream while diasporic life would be long lasting, diaspora activists shifted to an emphasis on identity retention focusing primarily on the memory of the genocide ‘over-here’ in the diaspora at the expense of national aspirations ‘over-there’ in the ASSR. Assimilation and the fading memory of the genocide were seen as the “white massacre,” while “knowing Armenian and some rudimentary facts about Armenian history became the new license to diasporic leadership.”'''''
			The Armenian Revolutionary Federation cannot be characterized with "Russophilia" as done in the sidebar of the article. The party is far from that, in reality. The party has collaborated with the Russians due to geographic proximity and strategic interests. However, the ARF's main policy is Armenophilia, as the party is created by and for the Armenian people. Its goals are the liberation of lost Armenian lands and justice for the Armenian Genocide. The party has nothing to do with loving the Russians and obsessing with them. I cannot edit this article, but I request someone remove that term. ] (]) 01:32, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

			== GA concerns ==
	''By the late 1970s, the diaspora and Soviet Armenia achieved a modus Vivendi in their relations. With communism in the ASSR becoming more and more tolerable to the diaspora in part because after 1965, the Soviets allowed commemorations of the genocide, and with a new generation of diasporic Armenians demanding greater militancy in the struggle for genocide recognition, the Dashnaks shelved their anti-Soviet orientation and entered a new phase in their national crusade. Armenian terrorism primarily against Turkish targets won international attention for their cause and helped to rally the diaspora to demand international recognition of the genocide, albeit mostly via diplomatic efforts. One scholar notes that “the true audience of Armenian terrorism was not Turkey and its NATO allies but the Armenian Diaspora, whose fraying culture is constituted to a remarkable degree by old stories.”''

			After quickly skimming the article, I am concerened that it does not meet the ] anymore. Some of my concerns are listed below:
	'''''In the two largest Western centers of Armenian diaspora—the United States more than a million and France roughly 500,000—activists focused their efforts on keeping and spreading the memory of the genocide, in the face of Turkey’s refusal to take responsibility for the atrocities or even to admit they ever happened. Because 80 percent of diasporic Armenians were descendants of genocide survivors, the memory of this atrocity became the most important vehicle with which to trigger a national identity dynamic. The Armenian Church also provided an institutional structure for group cohesiveness and ethnic mobilization. Tens of millions of dollars were raised to sustain Armenian day schools, churches, and other institutions in their efforts to nourish a viable diaspora. Millions were also channelled to family members in the ASSR, especially during the 1988 Armenian earthquake.'''''

			*The lede, at 7 paragrphs, is far more than the 3-4 recommended at ].
	The CAUSE in question has nothing to do with terrorism. The authors note that the terrorist activities gave an international coverage of the Dashnak backed diaspora’s cause. Nowhere in this article by its entirety, does it say ANYWHERE that the Dashnaks committed acts of terrorism. The ASALA committed such acts, and those acts did have a huge media attention, in that the Armenian causes was then known in the press. I am sure that you are enough intelligent to know that it has nothing to do with what you are alluding to. The article itself is a very good text to read, and I agree with the authors 100%, an article which is very well researched. ALSO, the authors are also VERY SYMPATHIC to the Dashnaks, and you should be very well aware of it since you viewed yourself the text in question. Now if please you could stop distorting and stop wasting my time with this. It will be fine. Dashnak has nothing to do with ASALA. The Dashnaks even harshly slandered the ASALA, even with various memorandums. ] ] 21:24, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
			*There are numerous uncited sections, including entire paragraphs.
			*There are numerous paragraphs that are one line long. These should be merged and copyedited.

			Is anyone interested in addressing these concerns, or should this article go to ]? ] (]) 20:20, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
	:: Fadix, I am glad you recited the paragraph I brought above, including the much argued relation of the sentence about Dashnaks to rest of the text, which quite fits the context of terrorism. About your comment, the cause and activity are two different things. For instance, Nazi's cause was the national socialism, while their deed was the World War II and the Holocaust. Yet another reference, more direct and from Armenian source:
	:::''President of Armenia L.Ter-Petrossian suspended the activities of the "Dashnaktsutyun", having accused it of maintaining within this Party a '''secret terrorist service''' "DRO", involved in international drug business and illegal economic activities'' (Suren Manukian, "Республика Армения: органы власти, хроника событий, политические организации, биографии", Moscow, Panorama, 2000, p. 95)
	:: Besides this many moderate Diaspora Armenians do admit that ARF has rather radical and terrorist agenda. Not to mention that leading members of ASALA were members of ARF. If you really have doubts about this one, I would suggest you to read the famous book by brother of Monte Melkonian. Thanks. ] 21:52, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

			:These problems are too extensive, I think, to be addressed in a short amount of time. It should probably go to WP:GAR. Best, ] (]) 21:19, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
	::::You are interpreting. Aliev was accused of drug trafiking, a leader of a mafia group, the party which established the first Azerbaijan republic has a militia unite called the "Savage Division," its members had a close role in the establishement of the first nationalistic Azeri SRR government. They all have a much worst recorded history than the ARF which has an established long history. Fitting the context of terrorism is an interpretation. The term "terrorism" has already been discussed on various articles like in regards to the PKK and there is an overal concensus on its uses in articles. Go ask Francis and many other administrators and see what they will answer. You are wasting my time. ] ] 22:09, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

			== Template ==
	:::::The stuff above on Aliyev, "Savage Division" or PKK is irrelevant. There is sufficient bipartisan and objective information with references provided by myself and others on relevant Wiki pages about the first Azerbaijani government and the party that established it.
	:::::We are discussing the activity of a completely different medium, ARF, so stick to the topic and provide counter arguments on the activity of the party independent of POV attacks. I am sorry, but yet again I will have to ignore your repeated "you are wasting my time" statement. First of all, this is a public discussion page, and I am not aware of your ownership of this or any other Misplaced Pages page. Secondly, I am here to contribute to discussion on ARF and its activity, and if people, while responding, consider their time wasted, it's not really problem of myself or any of the readers. That's the reason why this is called a "Talk Page". For the rest, follow the guidelines at ]. I, for one, will simply ignore any future comments like those mentioned. Thanks.] 22:31, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

			@] Hi. I don't think there is a credible reason to restore template by the blocked user because if you read the article, nowhere does it say the whole ARF collaborated with Nazis, this is what the relevant sentence says: "''During World War II, some Berlin-based ARF members saw an opportunity to remove Soviet control from Armenia by supporting the Nazis.''"
	::::::LOOK!!! The usage of the term terrorism has been discussed in various other articles, a concensus on its usage was attempted to be reached. The ARF in an organization, which has among them various members and adherents. We don't call Turks terrorist because of the murderers of Dink. The comparaison with the articles was not made by me by many users, including Turks, Greeks, Kurds, Georgians, Russians etc., and various administrators. THERE IS A CONCENSUS on its uses and you are breaching it. And there is no one you gonna convince me that by throwing the foundation of the NKO at the lead of NK, you were turly doing this for accuracy, neither by adding some quote you fished from a racist site like tallarmeniantale.com you were acting in good fate. Ganging with other members and by meatpuppeting you won't achieve anything. If you pay attention Albanian-Udi, check the decision taken. ] ] 22:51, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
			So according to the article, only ''some'' ARF members collaborated, not the whole organization. Therefore the template should be removed, it doesn't belong to the ARF organization as a whole which this article is about. ] (]) 18:12, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

			:Some ARF members collaborated with the Nazis, which means that the ARF, ''did'', in some capacity, collaborate with the Nazis. Its sourced and therefore its inclusion is warranted. ] (]) 18:35, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
	::::::::Fadix, we don't call Armenians as war criminals because of what some of them did in Khojaly either. This is really out of topic here, as is Albanian-Udi as are many other topics, which are irrelevant. Please, fall into line of ARF-related arguments only, or be ignored. Thanks. ] 00:58, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
			::Some doesn't represent the whole organization, that's not how it works. ARF has thousands of members, and if ''ARF organization ''itself hasn't collaborated in a formal manner, then the template has no place here. ] (]) 08:55, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
			:::Several high-ranking members ''did'' formally collaborate, and they did so with full acknowledgment/ permission of the ARF itself. Just because the ARF was not designated as an official "Nazi ally", it does not negate the collaboration between the party elite and the Nazi's. Collaboration does not always have to be "formalized". There is no inclusion criteria which states that only "formal allies" may be included. The ], commanded by ] (a high-ranking ARF politician) literally fought in allegiance with the Nazis. Therefore, its inclusion is warranted. ] (]) 00:20, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
			::::Hi @], can you provide a source for the claim that "they did so with full acknowledgment/ permission of the ARF itself"? Best, ] (]) 14:42, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
			:::::Absolutely, (see ) which states: "''the Berlin-based representatives of Tashnag (Armenian Revolutionary Federation—ARF) Armenians hastily signed an agreement with the Germans promising that Armenian volunteers would fight on the German side against the Soviets.''" Regardless if the central bureau accepted this or not, collaboration between the ARF and the Nazis (within some capacity) took place. ] (]) 19:09, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
			::::::Keghart is an opinion piece. The Banality book doesn't use the term "collaborator" or phrase "supporting the Nazis", or any of the other intentionally vague and provocative language that the article currently uses. This is original research. ] (]) 16:42, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::@] @] I agree that the Keghart piece is not an adequate citation for this claim. Yair Auron's book also does not mention the ARF at all. To my knowledge, Dro's actions were not sanctioned by the party leadership. Consult this passage from Christopher J. Walkers ''Armenia: The Survival of a Nation'' (London: Routledge, 1990, rev. 2nd ed., admittedly a somewhat old source by now): "Members of the Dashnak party living in the occupied areas, including a number of names famous from the period of the republic, adopted a pro-Nazi stance. The ''whole'' Dashnak party did not take this stance; the section of the party in Cairo affirmed its loyalty to the Allies" (357). I can search for more sources later. Eduard Abramyan's ''Kavkaztsy v Abvere'' (Кавказцы в Абвере, Moscow 2006) may contain relevant information. Best, ] (]) 10:17, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::''The Armenian Revolutionary Federation was conquered by the Russian Bolsheviks in 1920, and ceased to exist. This time, the Dashnaks saw a good opportunity in the collaboration with the Nazis to regain those territories. To that end, on December 30, 1941 they formed a battalion of 8,000-strong known as the “812th Armenian Battalion of Wehrmacht” under the command of Dro'' (per ) and ''Armenian Revolutionary Federation leaders worked closely with German Military Intelligence. The Armenians did for Germany what they first did best for the Russians in World War I — spying. From mid 1941 until September 1944 the Armenians worked closely with Nazi intelligence offices in Turkey and throughout the Middle East. Armenian “secret” agents worked to spread German propaganda and helped the Nazis run down and locate Jews. During the early years of the war Armenian leaders thought Germany would win the war. They made every effort to cut a deal for the Germans to give them Russian and Turkish lands.'' (per ).
			::::::::For the third time, this isn't about how much involvement the central bureau had with the Nazi's, its about '''collaboration'''. The ARF did have some amount of collaboration with the Nazi's. May I remind folks, that there was quite literally an ] (part of the Nazi German army) which was led by an ARF member. That, in it of itself, means there was some level of collaboration between high-ranking ARF member(s) and the Nazis. ] (]) 12:46, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::I would strongly recommend against consulting Armenian genocide denialist sources like that for this issue, or any historical topics. If members of the party collaborated with the Nazis on an individual level, against the decisions of the party leadership, and not acting in their capacity as ARF members, then it may be somewhat misleading to include the entire party in this template. (I am not saying this is necessarily the case, but I think there should be ] to assert that they ''were'' acting as representatives of the party.) In any case, I think we should focus on clarifying what the scholarship says in the main text of the article before deciding what to with this template. ] (]) 13:47, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::Your edit summary didn't make sense - what consensus are you talking about when you haven't replied to my even at the time you reverted me? Consensus is supposed to be reached between two parties (in this case at the time) or more, you can't just revert without yourself having disagreed with my comment or commented on talk. And your new source isn't ] as noted already by Revolution Saga, we don't use denialist sources in general and even more so in sensitive topics.
			:::::::::Let's get it straight: this template wasn't in the article, neither was , both were added by a blocked user . Even if we go by your logic, this user didn't have consensus to add such controversial material in the first place. Restoring it without consensus should be your concern, ]. ] (]) 05:49, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::::It's okay for you to reply to me after 12 days, yet you expect me to respond immediately? Unfortunately, Misplaced Pages does not work like that. Misplaced Pages is a ] project and I am not expected to respond to you at your beck and call. I did not say anything to you after taking 2 weeks to respond. You should understand that most editors are ].
			::::::::::As per ], your "B"old edit was "R"everted (several times), and then editors should "D"iscuss to reach a consensus. That guideline doesn't work when editors persistently reinstate their preferred version without reaching a conclusive ]. Not sure how my edit summary wasn't clear, but hopefully its crystal clear now!
			::::::::::Revolution Saga simply suggested to avoid using that source regarding the genocide. But the genocide is not what we are discussing here and has nothing to do with this thread. Revolution Saga also said above that they aren't saying it was or wasn't the case in regards to proving ARF involvement with the Nazis.
			::::::::::The lead of ] quite literally states ''"During World War II, he cooperated with Nazi Germany, hoping to secure Soviet Armenia's existence in case of Germany's victory over USSR and a potential Turkish invasion of the Caucasus."'' It's well sourced. This alone confirms that there was some degree of collaboration between the Nazi's and high ranking ARF members. While ] confirms that there were at least 9 Armenian battalions which fought alongside the Nazis as part of the ]. The 812th Battalion was established in 1942 when a number of ARF members entered into negotiations with Berlin. These articles and passages are all academically sourced on their respective articles. Read them.
			::::::::::If you are suggesting that there was absolutely zero collaboration with the ARF and the Nazis, please do present your ]. ] (]) 13:38, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::::@] Just so you know, Nzhdeh was no longer a member of the ARF during WWII. He had left the party quite some time before then. As for the Turkish diaspora organizations' websites you linked, I don't think they should be used for any articles on Armenian history, as they are not scholarly sources and clearly have an aggressive anti-Armenian agenda. Anyway, without a clear criterion of what should and should not be included in the template under discussion, this discussion is unlikely to go anywhere. To clarify my position: at the very least, I think the inclusion of the ARF in the template is possibly misleading and definitely inconsistent, since, for example, the Azerbaijani Musavat Party and the Georgian Mensheviks, some members of which also helped the Nazis against the Soviet Union during the war (per Abramyan's ''Kavkaztsy v Abvere'', p. 85ff), are not included. If the ARF is going to be included, then it's only fair that these parties be included as well. I'm going to edit the section in the article about WWII to correspond to the info in Walker's book and possibly also Abramyan if I have time to read more of it. ] (]) 21:31, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::::::P. S., I also noticed that the section referenced in the ''Banality of Denial'' book by Yair Auron is not the author's own writing but a quoted passage from a denialist Israeli historian, so take that into consideration when using that source. Best, ] (]) 21:38, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::::::I have no objection to their inclusion as well. They all did collaborate to a degree. Like you said, the lack of an established inclusion criteria leaves it open for interpretation. No matter how significant or insignificant, collaboration is collaboration. Therefore, I see no reason why they should be omitted. ] (]) 14:01, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::You should reply before reverting someone: you had the time to "no consensus" revert me but not reply to my comment when you yourself don't have consensus for inclusion?
			:::::::::::::Anyway, I'll address your objections one by one:
			:::::::::::::{{tq\|As per WP:BRD, your "B"old edit was "R"everted (several times), and then editors should "D"iscuss to reach a consensus.}}
			:::::::::::::The WP:BRD is an essay, '''not''' a policy. But even then: , , ? Where was the '''discuss''' that ''you'' had to do? Why you didn't follow your own linked essay? I was the one who had to start .
			:::::::::::::Btw, WP:BRD is a helpful essay, but essays do not overrule ] (which are standards on wiki) such as ], which explicitly says that: "The '''responsibility for achieving consensus for inclusion''' is on '''those seeking to include disputed content.'''" — you're violating ONUS.
			:::::::::::::{{tq\|Revolution Saga simply suggested to avoid using that source regarding the genocide ... Revolution Saga also said above that they aren't saying it was or wasn't the case in regards to proving ARF involvement with the Nazis.}}
			:::::::::::::Dear colleague, we don't need to speak for others. RevolutionSaga already and that it's at the very least misleading to have this template here, and that we (rightfully) shouldn't use Armenian genocide denialist sources for Armenian history (especially when it's controversial), that's a no-brainer. Yet somehow you don't see it with this silly justification for your denialist sources: {{tq\|But the genocide is not what we are discussing here and has nothing to do with this thread.}} — Really? Would you be ok with using blatant holocaust denying sources for Israeli controversial history topics, or Israeli history in general? Did you even fully look at the Turkish diaspora organizations' websites you linked and the blatant anti-Armenian agenda they're pushing? If you think these subpar websites could be used for this article, go ahead, discuss them in ] if you want to. As it stands, those sources do not have consensus for using in this article.
			:::::::::::::{{tq\|If you are suggesting that there was absolutely zero collaboration with the ARF and the Nazis, please do present your WP:RS}}
			:::::::::::::Dear colleague, let's make it clear: per policy, the burden is on '''you''' to prove ARF organization collaborated with Nazis, the burden isn't on me or RevolutionSaga to prove the opposite because ] – but ''even then'', in case you've not fully seen RevolutionSaga's , they were nice enough to provide an actual historian reliable source that verbatim states '''the whole ARF in fact did not adopt a pro-Nazi stance'''. In short, your denialist sources aren’t ] for Armenian history, and I’ve already explained about the other two .
			:::::::::::::My colleague, you literally don’t have ] to ] ARF organisation collaborated with Nazis. Meanwhile, there is RS stating that ARF did not adopt a pro-Nazi stance. So this article which is about the ARF organisation and not some selective members (those have their own articles) therefore should not have a misleading template, per ] and ]. ] (]) 06:38, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::::::::Dear colleague, read the sources on the linked articles I have provided. There are multiple ] which proves there was collaboration between the ARF and the Nazis. ] has already been met. And there is no overwhelming ] to remove the template from this article, therefore I will restore it. If you wish to dispute the content and the validity of those scholarly sources on those articles, then you should start a talk page discussion on the respective article. You are also more than welcome to launch an RFC, where we can get 3rd party editors to chime in. ] (]) 12:58, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::::Dear Archives, your statements are simply not true:
			:::::::::::::::{{tq\|read the sources on the linked articles I have provided. There are multiple WP:RS which proves there was collaboration between the ARF and the Nazis.}}
			:::::::::::::::What RS? Other than the denialist sources which ought not to be used in Armenian history and do not have consensus to be used, what actual RS state that the '''ARF organisation''' collaborated with Nazis? Only ] that say even something close to that state that only for selective '''members''', and even then with context that those members made the decision in order to protect Armenians living in the German-occupied areas and to protect Armenia from a potential Turkish invasion in the event of a German victory over the Soviet Union.
			:::::::::::::::When it comes to the '''ARF organisation''' itself though, you still have not presented any ] to state ARF organisation collaborated with Nazis, which this article is about, ARF's article. However, on the contrary, as RevolutionSaga already shown, there are sources that state the ''opposite'' such as:
			:::::::::::::::*Christopher J. Walkers Armenia: The Survival of a Nation (London: Routledge, 1990, rev. 2nd ed.): "''Members of the Dashnak party living in the occupied areas, including a number of names famous from the period of the republic, adopted a pro-Nazi stance. '''The whole Dashnak party did not take this stance; the section of the party in Cairo affirmed its loyalty to the Allies'''''" (357)
			:::::::::::::::So if you have ] that state '''ARF organisation''' collaborated with Nazis, please quote them here with page numbers so all of us can ] it. If you don't let's just settle this discussion down dear Archives and follow the RS that I quoted above.
			:::::::::::::::Finally, please remember that as it stands, the ] in fact '''IS NOT''' met, no Wikipedian or admin will look at this discussion and say "Archives908 has consensus and met ONUS", in fact you clearly don't have consensus. So, dear colleague, please do not engage in reverts and ], as the burden for it is on you. ] (]) 06:34, 2 August 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::::::::::The ] article literally states in the body: ''During World War II, some ARF members, specifically those living in areas under German occupation, '''collaborated with Nazi Germany'''. However, this was not the position of the entire party, and the party bureau in Cairo declared its loyalty to the Allies. The ], composed largely of former Soviet Red Army POWs, was led by Drastamat Kanayan. It participated in the occupation of the Crimean Peninsula and the North Caucasus.''<ref>{{Cite book \|last=Walker \|first=Christopher J. \|author-link=Christopher J. Walker \|title=Armenia: The Survival of a Nation \|publisher=Routledge \|year=1990 \|isbn=0-415-04684-X \|edition=Rev. 2nd \|location=London \|pages=356-358 \|orig-date=First published 1980}}</ref>
			::::::::::::::::Collaboration, '''to a degree''', did exist. ] has been provided.
			::::::::::::::::You, on the other hand, continue to remove sourced content and now I'm beginning to suspect a violation of ]. ] (]) 13:42, 2 August 2024 (UTC) ] (]) 13:42, 2 August 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::::::You were asked for a SOURCE for ARF organisation collaborating with Nazis, you instead quote a PART of paragraph from this article (which is NOT A SOURCE) that is literally sourced by the same source I quoted above, only says "some members" and not ARF itself, and doesn't refer to ARF organisation.: if you read the source which you should per ], literally next sentence after those "members", the source verbatim states that whole ARF did NOT adopt a Nazi stance and assured its loyalty to Allies in Cairo meeting:
			:::::::::::::::::*Christopher J. Walkers Armenia: The Survival of a Nation (London: Routledge, 1990, rev. 2nd ed.): "'''''Members''' of the Dashnak party living in the occupied areas, including a number of names famous from the period of the republic, adopted a pro-Nazi stance. '''The whole Dashnak party did not take this stance'''; the section of the party in Cairo '''affirmed its loyalty to the Allies'''''" (357)
			:::::::::::::::::How can you ignore ] entirely and partially quote a paragraph as if it's a source, same paragraph fragment that is referenced by my source above which goes on to say, in the same sentence, that whole ARF did not adopt a pro-Nazi stance of some members. Do you understand how wrong this is? Please do not act in this way, you're violating ], ], ] and ] - and once again, you don't have consensus when you need one especially for continuing to revert and edit-war, please read carefully word by word, idk what else to say in order for you to NOT blatantly ignore policies:
			:::::::::::::::::*]
			:::::::::::::::::] (]) 06:34, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::::::::::::I added the source already- please read it. Thanks, ] (]) 13:14, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::::::::I already said earlier that Keghart is an opinion piece. The Banality book doesn't use the term "collaborator" or phrase "supporting the Nazis". Turkish diaspora organizations' denialist websites aren't ] for Armenian history as you've been told already by two different users. What is this reliable source you're talking about that you've "added"? And if you have a ], where does it dispute what RS such as Walkers says which I've repeatedly quoted above, that the whole ARF party did not in fact take a pro-Nazi stance like some members and that the section of ARF in Cairo explicitly affirmed its loyalty to the Allies? Do you have an ] with following ] and providing ] with page numbers/quotes when required, especially when '''you''' keep going against ] and restoring misleading controversial content that ''contradicts'' the actual Walkers ] quoted here? ] (]) 18:49, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::::::::::::::Here you go: <ref>Kurt Mehner, Germany. Oberkommando der Wehrmacht, Bundesarchiv (Germany). Militärarchiv, Arbeitskreis für Wehrforschung. Die Geheimen Tagesberichte der Deutschen Wehrmachtführung im Zweiten Weltkrieg, 1939–1945: 1. Dezember 1943–29. Februar 1944. p. 51 (in German).</ref>, <ref>{{cite thesis \|last=Sahakyan \|first=Vahe \|date=2015 \|title=Between Host-Countries and Homeland: Institutions, Politics and Identities in the Post-Genocide Armenian Diaspora (1920s to 1980s) \|type=Ph.D. dissertation \|chapter= \|publisher=University of Michigan \|hdl=2027.42/113641 \|docket= \|oclc= \|url=http://hdl.handle.net/2027.42/113641 \|access-date=10 August 2024}}</ref>, <ref>{{cite book \|last=Berberian \|first=Houri \|title=The First Republic of Armenia (1918-1920) on Its Centenary: Politics, Gender, and Diplomacy \|date=2020 \|publisher=The Press at California State University, Fresno \|isbn=9780912201672 \|editor-last=Der Matossian \|editor-first=Bedross \|location=Fresno \|pages=53–88 \|chapter=From Nationalist-Socialist to National Socialist? The Shifting Politics of Abraham Giulkhandanian \|author-link= \|chapter-url=https://www.academia.edu/43955951}}</ref>, <ref>{{cite book\|last = Auron\|first = Yair\|title = The Banality of Denial: Israel and the Armenian Genocide\|publisher =Transaction Publishers\|location= New Brunswick, NJ\|year = 2003\|page=262\|isbn =0-7658-0834-X}}</ref>, <ref>{{cite book\| last = Ailsby\| first = Christopher\| title = Hitler's Renegades: Foreign Nationals in the Service of the Third Reich \| publisher =Spellmount\| location= Staplehurst, Kent \| year = 2004\| pages=123–124\| isbn =1-57488-838-2}}</ref>, <ref>{{cite book\| last = Thomas\| first = Nigel\| others= Stephen Andrew\| title = The German Army 1939-45 (5)\| publisher =Osprey Publishing\| location= Oxford\| year = 2000\| pages=43–44\| isbn =1-85532-797-X}}</ref>, <ref>{{Cite book \|last=Walker \|first=Christopher J. \|author-link=Christopher J. Walker \|title=Armenia: The Survival of a Nation \|publisher=Routledge \|year=1990 \|isbn=0-415-04684-X \|edition=Rev. 2nd \|location=London \|pages=356–358 \|orig-date=First published 1980}}</ref>, <ref>{{cite book \|last=Berberian \|first=Houri \|author-link= \|title=The First Republic of Armenia (1918-1920) on Its Centenary: Politics, Gender, and Diplomacy \|date=2020 \|publisher=The Press at California State University, Fresno \|isbn=9780912201672 \|editor-last=Der Matossian \|editor-first=Bedross \|location=Fresno \|pages=54 \|chapter=From Nationalist-Socialist to National Socialist? The Shifting Politics of Abraham Giulkhandanian \|chapter-url=https://www.academia.edu/43955951}}</ref>, <ref>{{cite book\|first=Thomas \|last=De Waal \|author-link=Thomas de Waal \|title=Great Catastrophe: Armenians and Turks in the Shadow of Genocide \|publisher=Oxford University Press \|year=2015 \|page=112}}</ref>. ] (]) 14:01, 10 August 2024 (UTC) ] (]) 14:01, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::::::::::I hope you understand that dumping sources here with no quotes isn't exactly providing quotes when asked especially for challenged contentious material that contradicts the quoted source here, see ]:
			:::::::::::::::::::::* ],
			:::::::::::::::::::::* material whose verifiability has been ],
			:::::::::::::::::::::* material whose verifiability is ], and
			:::::::::::::::::::::* contentious material about ].
			:::::::::::::::::::::And there are several issues already even without having any quotes to confirm your claim of ARF organisation collaborating with Nazis:
			:::::::::::::::::::::You cite Walker '''twice''' in your list, the same Walker who literally '''does not support''' your position (I quoted Walker already several times and he verbatim says that ARF did not take a pro-Nazi stance and affirmed loyalty to Allies in the Cairo meeting).
			:::::::::::::::::::::One of the other sources you posted is a section from Auron Yair's book, which RevolutionSaga already isn't actually written by Yair himself but quoted from an Israeli denialist historian, which obviously shouldn't be used for Armenian history, as already told by two users here for other denialist sources.
			:::::::::::::::::::::That leaves us with 7 sources; could you be kind enough and provide quotations from these sources, per ], that confirm ARF organisation collaboration with Nazis? Something tells me you didn't actually read the sources and just mass posted them here from some article; otherwise you wouldn't have posted Walker twice who not only doesn't support but contradicts your position. ] (]) 11:22, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::::::::::::::::Firstly, I took many hours to review various sources per your request. You making assumptions is not conducive nor productive to this conversation, and quite frankly is rude. It's also ironic that you are assuming that I haven't read these sources, yet you openly admit to not reviewing them yourself. So please, as a gentile reminder, stay focused on the topic at hand, and avoid making assumptions about editors per ].
			::::::::::::::::::::::Secondly, I may have listed the same source twice by mistake. Please ] down the language, as you are making it seem that I have committed the most egregious offence on Misplaced Pages -_- I am not a machine, dearest colleague.
			::::::::::::::::::::::'''You requested specific pages numbers''' in your comment above, and I have taken much time to curate the list, read through the information, and provide you with the precise page numbers which discusses ARF collaboration with the Nazis. It is quite impractical to copy and paste paragraphs upon paragraphs upon paragraphs of information onto this talk page. In some cases, there is pertinent information spread across large bodies of text, making it difficult to copy here. Furthermore, I do not wish to break any ]s as I have made a few mistakes with that in the past and have been warned.
			::::::::::::::::::::::Instead, '''you''' must now take the time to review the sources I have provided as per your request. You will notice specific page numbers provided for your convenience. If it is a matter of you having difficulty accessing any of these sources, please see ] for assistance. I have asked members of the Resource Exchange for help, and they are truly amazing folks! Enjoy :) ] (]) 14:25, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
			{{od\|:::::::::::::::::::::::}}I have looked through all of Archives908's sources, and none of them claim the ARF ever had a Nazi collaborator position, just a few members (some former) did. Sahakyan points out that Carlson refrained from outright making this accusation (p. 293). Berberian specifics only "a few ARF members in Paris and Berlin" (p. 72) had any contact with Nazi Germany. Thomas does not even mention the ARF directly. ] (]) 21:25, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

			:None of them claim collaboration, yet, at the same time, a few ARF members did collaborate. Hmm seems quite contradictory to me. Per ], pages must fairly represent all significant viewpoints in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in those sources. Collaboration, despite it being minimal with just a handful of ARF members, did exist. I'm not saying we need to write paragraphs upon paragraphs about this (as that would violate ]), but it does merit inclusion on the template. A fair ] should be maintained. Prominence isn't given on this topic, since it is minimal, but it should still be included because there was indeed a degree of collaboration. Furthermore, there is no established inclusion criteria for the template itself. The metric for what level of collaboration must be met to warrant inclusion or exclusion has yet to be discussed or determined. If we are going to say that the ARF's collaboration was so minimal that it does not warrant inclusion, then a complete review of all the other collaborationists on that template is necessary and a ] would be needed. This is a totally different discussion to be had on that template, '''not here'''. ] (]) 22:33, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
	Noone is saying the article should call the ARF terrorists, this discussion is about whether the voices that do call the ARF this are notable enough to be mentioned. While that paper quoted above does seem to '''imply''' the accusation that the Dashnaks committed terrorist acts, that is hardly enough for a mentioning in the article IMHO.--] 23:30, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

			::Is there any other organization in the Collaboration template that is only listed because of a few members, and not an official stance by the organization? There doesn't appear to be. ] (]) 21:26, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
	:::Carabineri, more references will be provided in this regard in coming days. Thanks. ] 00:58, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
			:::It's not about whether there was an "official stance" or not, it's about what ''degree of collaboration'' merits inclusion on the template. Collaboration need not be formalized for it to still be considered collaboration. And this is exactly my point. ARF members (albeit a minority) did actively collaborate with the Nazis. They even led the ] (a force established to fight alongside the Nazis, led by one of the most well known ARF members ]). Why should this example of collaboration be considered any less significant then the other organizations with official stances? It's still the same thing. ] (]) 21:50, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

			::::According to Walker, the ARF party did not have a collaboration stance and was even pro-Allies. According to Suny, the ARF had no affiliation with the Armenian Legion and even dissociated with it. Based on these sources, the degree of collaboration is too small, contradictory, and unofficial to merit including the template. ] (]) 21:25, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
	:Carabinieri, the article doesn't imply that. It says that the terrorist acts helped the ARF in their cause. If you want me to email you the article, I will. The article in detail covers the cause in question, which was about awaken the Armenian causes and get media attention. This media attention was obtained by the terrorist acts commited by the ASALA. Say that someone is on a waiting list for treatment, and that the person before him get killed, the killing helped the one following to get the treatment more quickly, it doesn't mean he killed the other guy. The other comment by Atabek about Ter-petrossian just show that Atabek didn't even read the article, since the article covers it. ] ] 23:40, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
			:::::You're only focusing on the information you want to focus on. There are other sources I included which do highlight ARF collaboration with the Nazis. Even academic article (from an Armenian source) states: ''"Their distraction could take them too far. Garegin Nzhdeh, a hero of World War I and the First Republic of Armenia, '''collaborated with the Nazis''' before and during World War II."'' Or perhaps this which discusses the foundation of the ] and ARF's ]'s role in it. It states, ''"At the beginning, General Drastamat Kanayan (Drone) comes to Berlin, and local influential Armenians, in particular Heinz Guderian, an Armenian of the Wehrmacht, organize a meeting with Reichsführer Himmler of the SS."'' and ''"And the guarantee of this will be the creation of the Armenian Legion. In my opinion, that organization can protect its homeland from all enemies, of course. '''With our help''', Dro visits the military camp that prepares future Armenian legionnaires, as well as the prisoner of war camp, where he convinced captured Armenians to join the Armenian Legion. For many, joining the Armenian Legion meant getting a new homeland."'' Or maybe and (registration needed) where we learn that ], ], and Hayk Asatryan (all very prominent ARF members) actively tried to persuade Armenians to fight for Nazi Germany. ''"Nationalist Armenian figures and exiled officers, along with German high-ranking officials and officers, visited prisoner-of-war camps, where they met captured Armenian soldiers and officers of the Red Army, did explanatory work with them, trying to save them from inevitable death. Purposeful propaganda work was carried out among the prisoners of war, convincing the Armenian soldiers that the enemy of Armenia and them is not Germany and Hitler, but Stalin and Bolshevism. Many Armenian soldiers and officers, listening to the outstanding national figures and national heroes, among whom were Garegin Nzhdeh, DrastamatKanayan /Dro/, Hayk Asatryan, Alfred Muradyan and others, voluntarily joined the national liberation struggle and joined the battalions of the national legion."'' Or maybe , when official cooperation was seemingly pledged, during a ceremony where ''"First the German flag of the armed forces was raised on the flagstaff and then the three-color flag of the Armenian Republic of 1918-1920 was raised on the other flagstaff"'' and high ranking Kanayan proceeded to state, ''"Germany and not the USSR was the ally of Armenians."'' Or maybe which mentions Armenian troops (led by ARF Nzhdeh) engaging in battles from the ] to ] to Southern ] and the ] in loyalty to the Nazis. Or perhaps , which states, ''"The Armenian publication, ‘Dro’ Drastamat Kanayan: Armenia’s First Defence Minister of the Modern Era‘ by Antranig Chalabian reveals that Dr Paul Rohrbach and Artashes Abeghian published a book in 1934 called ‘Armenian-Aryan’ in collaboration with a number of Nazi intellectuals which “strove to prove that Armenians belong to the Aryan race and the Armenian language to the Indo-European family of languages.” (p.234) The year before, in 1933, “Goebbels had formally declared that the Armenians were Aryan.” (p.248). These decisions provided the ideological cover for General Dro '''and other Dashnak leaders''', along with the large Armenian Legion, '''to fight alongside the Nazis on the Eastern Front'''."'' Let's also not forget the Armenians who joined the 58th Panzer Corps and the 19th Army (part of the German army's Eastern Legion of Wehrmacht/ see ]) at the command of ARF officials, which estimates vary between 20,000 and 100,000 people. What about this highly organized, planned, and significant level of collaboration seems "too small"? ] (]) 22:51, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

			{{reftalk}}

			:More than half the sources you are posting up here are outright Armenian Genocide denialists who have a clear agenda to minimize the suffering of the genocide by exaggerating the extent of Armenian collaboration with the Nazis during the war while the rest are just websites with dubious credentials. So far the other editors have effectively demonstrated how much caution must be exercised when approaching this topic while the above paragraph is just a mishmash of disinformation strung up together, bordering on original research. I mean, even the Armenian Legion was made up mainly of former Soviet army POWs, not members of the ARF party. Everything else you've posted is derivative and a reflection of the activities of a literal handful of ARF party members (which were otherwise repudiated by other party leaders at the time). This argument is threadbare and is being made in bad-faith. ] (]) 13:08, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
	'''I do not want to be part of this discussion. However, Is there a terrorist organization which performed "terrorist acts" in the name of doing "terrorist acts"? Isn't that all terrorist organizations that do "terrorist acts" because "it helps their cause"? ] 23:56, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
	'''

			:Read my above comment, posted yesterday. Almost all of these sources are Armenian. ] (]) 13:35, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
	Atabek, you must be pretty damn gullible or just plain blind to believe the horse manure that Dashnak members were actually conspiring to kill members of the Ter-Petrosyan cabinet in 1994. Ter-Petrosyan's government was wallowing with low public opinion ratings and they knew that ANM members were going to be unseated by the Dashnaks. Not even Libaridian, the guy who presented the evidence against them, believed they were guilty. It was obviously to prevent them from gaining the seats and you're honestly using nonsense as proof that the ARF has connections to terrorism? --] 00:01, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

			::And my observation still stands. You've compiled a massive nothing-burger. The talk page is about whether the template belongs on the page, which, it doesn't, because, as a number of editors have already pointed out, the ARF did not make a party-wide decision to side with the Axis. Some individual leaders deciding to do so does not condemn the entire party. ] (]) 17:30, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
	::Marshal Bagramyan, please, keep your personal attack such as "you must be pretty damn gullible or just plain blind". You have been warned! Now, the opinion about Ter-Petrosyan's reason for Dashnak's closure is not mine it's quoted from Suren Manukian as indicated. Thanks. ] 00:58, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
			:::Have you even read this thread? If you did, surely you would have noticed that we have already discussed this. The template does not just include formal allies of the Nazis, but of ''all collaborationists''. Just because there wasn't a formalized relationship, collaboration between the ARF (in a limited non-formal capacity) still existed. These were high-ranking members of the ARF, leaders of the organization which directly engaged and orchestrated plans with the Nazis. Unfortunately, the template does not cover individual persons, but rather various entities/countries. The ARF is the entity to which these collaborators were members of. So yes, this does, by extension, if not by default, link the party to it. Let's not ] this. ] (]) 13:57, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

			::::lol, no, it doesn't. As someone else mentioned, Nzdeh quit the party, Dro was acting on his own initiative, and most everyone else made decisions based on local circumstances rather than party directives. If we were to use your logic, we might as well indict the Democrats and Republicans just because some among their number shared Nazi sympathies or supported them in one way or another during the war. ] (]) 16:59, 31 August 2024 (UTC)
	Well Suren Manukyan is wrong. When you have the main person involved in preparing the evidence against them, a historian and special cabinet adviser to the President, doubting the veracity of the same documents '''he''' introduced and casually admitting that they could have been embellished, then that casts a doubt into their prosecution and essentially exonerates them.--] 02:33, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
			:::::Lol Nzdeh quit after the initial collaboration. That does not negate his role. Also, "sympathy" is vastly different compared to ARF members persuading tens of thousands of Armenians to fight in the Nazi Wehrmacht. ] (]) 17:32, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

			::::::Those rank-and-file soldiers were virtually all from the Soviet Union, fully brought up in the Soviet milieu and with scarcely a soldier who would have known much about the ARF at the time of their conscription. ] (]) 20:00, 31 August 2024 (UTC)
	== papazian work ==
			:::::::You're deflecting. What thousands of soldiers may or may not have thought about is ]. The focus here is ''who'' were they conscripted by? The answer is high-ranking ARF elites. The next question is ''why''? The answer is to fight alongside the Nazis. And what does this entail? Collaboration. ] (]) 20:29, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

			::::::::Gosh. You really come off like a novice in this field. You're reducing what was a very complex issue into a very one-dimensional matter. Please read up more on this subject, and then come back here in a couple months if you really want to make a meaningful contribution rather than score cheap political points. ] (]) 14:27, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
	Information about ARF activity in Russian Empire should be restored. It is well-known information. Previous comments and insults by Fadix are just self-explanatory to show bias and desire to clean up. It is also unsubstantiated claim that Papazian work was pro-Bolshevik. His work was published in Boston in 1934. --] 22:59, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
			:::::::::@] as you noticed from the discussion, it's evidently clear per this talk that the consensus is near unanimously in favor of removing the misleading template from the article. If Archives908 continues edit-warring and restoring the template ''against'' the clear talk consensus, it is likely to be grounds for a more serious discussion involving administrators. ] (]) 14:04, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

			==GA Reassessment==
	== Some statements from prominent ARF member ==
			{{Misplaced Pages:Good article reassessment/Armenian Revolutionary Federation/1}}
	Below are the statements from Vahan Hovanesyan, ARF member and Deputy Speaker of Armenian parliament, which not only reveal the terrorist but also plainly fascistic and intolerant nature of this leading ARF politician. Quotes are from interview of Vahan Hovanesyan to Armenian Russian-language newspaper "Novoye Vremya", published on March 16, 2004:
	::- "I am proud that in the Karabakh war we killed 25,000 Azeris and only 5,000 Armenians were killed"
	::- "I am proud that in 1915 my people resisted the Turks and Kurds, who were carrying out genocide, and while dying took such a big number of enemies with them that till today they say that representatives of their peoples were also killed."
	::- "I am proud of those Dashnak teams which in 1918 in Baku did not let another genocide be carried out." (pride of Dashnak participation in March massacres in Baku, when 12,000 Azeris were slaughtered).
	::- "if we do not complain about the behaviour of Azeris, ordinary people or the elite, in that case there are no factors to prevent Karabakh being within Azerbaijan"
	Do we need more evidence? Cheers. ] 01:21, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

			== Portals ==
	:How exactly are individual members of the Dashnak Party representative of the views of the Party itself? There are many stupid things Democrats or Republicans say which are clearly out of line with the Party's stance but do we hold them synonymous because its a minority view?

			{{replyto\|Archives908}}
	:As far as I have been able to count, Dacy's (and yours to Atabek) pernicious POV edits have spread to at least 3 Armenian-related articles where administrators have been forced to lock them due to disputes with the apparently sole aim of tarnishing the individual or the topic in the article, one way or another. This is hardly the way Misplaced Pages works. I suggest you guys re-read 5 pillars of Misplaced Pages once more and then return back. This is hardly constructive and your edits have hardly enriched the articles themselves. --] 02:10, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
			Hello! I meant for the Middle East portal to be a proxy for an "Armenia" portal that does not exist. ] was deleted in 2019. I wanted to have some geographical portal that could best fit the place of "Armenia". It had to do with https://ciaotest.cc.columbia.edu/olj/meria/meria00_nog01.html (and as the Ottoman Empire was relevant to Western Armenia)
			] (]) 03:23, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

			:Greetings! I understand, however, Armenia is not within the modern political borders of the ] (see ] for further details). Regards, ] (]) 03:30, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
	:Nice try . I'm sure Bakutoday is veryyyyyyy unbiased about Armenians. I'm sure all your news agencies post real and unbiased news too such as denying a sniper death of an Armenian officer or this one a week or 2 ago (how did they die then? friendly sniper fire? lol) or i like this one alot (pure azeri propoganda, something you are trying to promote here in wikipedia, possibly doing a favour for your azeri government?) BESIDES, even if those comments by Hovanessian (not Hovanesyan) were true how does that define what the party stands for? What terrorism are you talking about? That the Armenian successfully won the Nagorno-Karabakh war? That they tried their best to resist/stop genocides? (inflated azeri numbers btw) And what do these comments have to do with the development of this article? How can someone assume good faith out of all this. Adn your comments on Ter-petrossian thing CLEARLY shows you have a)not read the article b) dont give a rat's ass but to vilify it. It is mentioned in the article (read MarshallBargramyan's comments on ter-petrossian-ARF related incident) and it is also mentioned in the article that they have sometimes been linked to JCAG (despite no proof that they are the same). Dashnak and ASALA have NOTHING to do w/ each other, they never saw eye-to-eye, Dashnak is primarily nationalist while ASALA is leninist...the same Leninists who threw the ARF out of Armenia in 1920. Read ASALA article to learn more about them. - ] 02:18, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
			::Technically it would be in West Asia/Southwest Asia, but those portals don't exist. All we have is ] ] (]) 03:33, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::I'm aware of that. Per longstanding ] at ], the three countries of the ], ], ], and ] may be placed in both Europe and Asia related articles/lists. Feel free to add both Europe and Asia portals, or maintain the status quo and keep geography out of it (mind you, the ARF is an affiliate of the ]. I'm unaware of any modern connections to any political entities in Asia). Cheers, ] (]) 03:47, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::I decided to add both Asia and Europe portals as the party has its headquarters in the modern state of Armenia. (: "Yerevan, Mher Mkrtchyan 12/1") ] (]) 03:53, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

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Searches for Dashnaktsutiun, Dashnak Party and Dashnak should redirect here.

Paragraph irrelevant to heading

The following is the first paragraph under the heading "Young Turk Revolution":

In the 1890s the party used terrorism against the Ottoman Empire and Russia with the goal of gaining an independent nation, more well known attacks occurred against Bedros Kapamciyan, the mayor of Van who was assassinated in December 1912, and the assassination of archbishop Leon Tourian in New York City on December 24, 1933.

Only the incident in 1912 is relevant to that segment and the source used is by a Turkish nationalist author. I would remove that short paragraph completely but I'd, if it has to stay, at least call for a better source and move it somewhere else in the article. AlenVaneci (talk) 11:17, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

Russophilia

Hello, The Armenian Revolutionary Federation cannot be characterized with "Russophilia" as done in the sidebar of the article. The party is far from that, in reality. The party has collaborated with the Russians due to geographic proximity and strategic interests. However, the ARF's main policy is Armenophilia, as the party is created by and for the Armenian people. Its goals are the liberation of lost Armenian lands and justice for the Armenian Genocide. The party has nothing to do with loving the Russians and obsessing with them. I cannot edit this article, but I request someone remove that term. ProtoCS (talk) 01:32, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

GA concerns

After quickly skimming the article, I am concerened that it does not meet the good article criteria anymore. Some of my concerns are listed below:

The lede, at 7 paragrphs, is far more than the 3-4 recommended at WP:LEDE.
There are numerous uncited sections, including entire paragraphs.
There are numerous paragraphs that are one line long. These should be merged and copyedited.

Is anyone interested in addressing these concerns, or should this article go to WP:GAR? Z1720 (talk) 20:20, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

These problems are too extensive, I think, to be addressed in a short amount of time. It should probably go to WP:GAR. Best, Revolution Saga (talk) 21:19, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Template

@Archives908 Hi. I don't think there is a credible reason to restore this template by the blocked user because if you read the article, nowhere does it say the whole ARF collaborated with Nazis, this is what the relevant sentence says: "During World War II, some Berlin-based ARF members saw an opportunity to remove Soviet control from Armenia by supporting the Nazis." So according to the article, only some ARF members collaborated, not the whole organization. Therefore the template should be removed, it doesn't belong to the ARF organization as a whole which this article is about. Vanezi (talk) 18:12, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

Some ARF members collaborated with the Nazis, which means that the ARF, did, in some capacity, collaborate with the Nazis. Its sourced and therefore its inclusion is warranted. Archives908 (talk) 18:35, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Some doesn't represent the whole organization, that's not how it works. ARF has thousands of members, and if ARF organization itself hasn't collaborated in a formal manner, then the template has no place here. Vanezi (talk) 08:55, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Several high-ranking members did formally collaborate, and they did so with full acknowledgment/ permission of the ARF itself. Just because the ARF was not designated as an official "Nazi ally", it does not negate the collaboration between the party elite and the Nazi's. Collaboration does not always have to be "formalized". There is no inclusion criteria which states that only "formal allies" may be included. The Armenian Legion, commanded by Drastamat Kanayan (a high-ranking ARF politician) literally fought in allegiance with the Nazis. Therefore, its inclusion is warranted. Archives908 (talk) 00:20, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Hi @Archives908, can you provide a source for the claim that "they did so with full acknowledgment/ permission of the ARF itself"? Best, Revolution Saga (talk) 14:42, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Absolutely, (see ) which states: "the Berlin-based representatives of Tashnag (Armenian Revolutionary Federation—ARF) Armenians hastily signed an agreement with the Germans promising that Armenian volunteers would fight on the German side against the Soviets." Regardless if the central bureau accepted this or not, collaboration between the ARF and the Nazis (within some capacity) took place. Archives908 (talk) 19:09, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Keghart is an opinion piece. The Banality book doesn't use the term "collaborator" or phrase "supporting the Nazis", or any of the other intentionally vague and provocative language that the article currently uses. This is original research. Vanezi (talk) 16:42, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

@Archives908 @Vanezi Astghik I agree that the Keghart piece is not an adequate citation for this claim. Yair Auron's book also does not mention the ARF at all. To my knowledge, Dro's actions were not sanctioned by the party leadership. Consult this passage from Christopher J. Walkers Armenia: The Survival of a Nation (London: Routledge, 1990, rev. 2nd ed., admittedly a somewhat old source by now): "Members of the Dashnak party living in the occupied areas, including a number of names famous from the period of the republic, adopted a pro-Nazi stance. The whole Dashnak party did not take this stance; the section of the party in Cairo affirmed its loyalty to the Allies" (357). I can search for more sources later. Eduard Abramyan's Kavkaztsy v Abvere (Кавказцы в Абвере, Moscow 2006) may contain relevant information. Best, Revolution Saga (talk) 10:17, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

The Armenian Revolutionary Federation was conquered by the Russian Bolsheviks in 1920, and ceased to exist. This time, the Dashnaks saw a good opportunity in the collaboration with the Nazis to regain those territories. To that end, on December 30, 1941 they formed a battalion of 8,000-strong known as the “812th Armenian Battalion of Wehrmacht” under the command of Dro (per ) and Armenian Revolutionary Federation leaders worked closely with German Military Intelligence. The Armenians did for Germany what they first did best for the Russians in World War I — spying. From mid 1941 until September 1944 the Armenians worked closely with Nazi intelligence offices in Turkey and throughout the Middle East. Armenian “secret” agents worked to spread German propaganda and helped the Nazis run down and locate Jews. During the early years of the war Armenian leaders thought Germany would win the war. They made every effort to cut a deal for the Germans to give them Russian and Turkish lands. (per ).

For the third time, this isn't about how much involvement the central bureau had with the Nazi's, its about collaboration. The ARF did have some amount of collaboration with the Nazi's. May I remind folks, that there was quite literally an Armenian Legion (part of the Nazi German army) which was led by an ARF member. That, in it of itself, means there was some level of collaboration between high-ranking ARF member(s) and the Nazis. Archives908 (talk) 12:46, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

I would strongly recommend against consulting Armenian genocide denialist sources like that for this issue, or any historical topics. If members of the party collaborated with the Nazis on an individual level, against the decisions of the party leadership, and not acting in their capacity as ARF members, then it may be somewhat misleading to include the entire party in this template. (I am not saying this is necessarily the case, but I think there should be WP:RS to assert that they were acting as representatives of the party.) In any case, I think we should focus on clarifying what the scholarship says in the main text of the article before deciding what to with this template. Revolution Saga (talk) 13:47, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

Your edit summary didn't make sense - what consensus are you talking about when you haven't replied to my comment even at the time you reverted me? Consensus is supposed to be reached between two parties (in this case at the time) or more, you can't just revert without yourself having disagreed with my comment or commented on talk. And your new source isn't WP:RS as noted already by Revolution Saga, we don't use denialist sources in general and even more so in sensitive topics.

Let's get it straight: this template wasn't in the article, neither was this, both were added by a blocked user . Even if we go by your logic, this user didn't have consensus to add such controversial material in the first place. Restoring it without consensus should be your concern, the burden for consensus is on you to include disputed content. Vanezi (talk) 05:49, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

It's okay for you to reply to me after 12 days, yet you expect me to respond immediately? Unfortunately, Misplaced Pages does not work like that. Misplaced Pages is a WP:VOLUNTEER project and I am not expected to respond to you at your beck and call. I did not say anything to you after taking 2 weeks to respond. You should understand that most editors are WP:BUSY.

As per WP:BRD, your "B"old edit was "R"everted (several times), and then editors should "D"iscuss to reach a consensus. That guideline doesn't work when editors persistently reinstate their preferred version without reaching a conclusive WP:CON. Not sure how my edit summary wasn't clear, but hopefully its crystal clear now!

Revolution Saga simply suggested to avoid using that source regarding the genocide. But the genocide is not what we are discussing here and has nothing to do with this thread. Revolution Saga also said above that they aren't saying it was or wasn't the case in regards to proving ARF involvement with the Nazis.

The lead of Garegin Nzhdeh quite literally states "During World War II, he cooperated with Nazi Germany, hoping to secure Soviet Armenia's existence in case of Germany's victory over USSR and a potential Turkish invasion of the Caucasus." It's well sourced. This alone confirms that there was some degree of collaboration between the Nazi's and high ranking ARF members. While Collaboration with Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy confirms that there were at least 9 Armenian battalions which fought alongside the Nazis as part of the Armenian Legion. The 812th Battalion was established in 1942 when a number of ARF members entered into negotiations with Berlin. These articles and passages are all academically sourced on their respective articles. Read them.

If you are suggesting that there was absolutely zero collaboration with the ARF and the Nazis, please do present your WP:RS. Archives908 (talk) 13:38, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

@Archives908 Just so you know, Nzhdeh was no longer a member of the ARF during WWII. He had left the party quite some time before then. As for the Turkish diaspora organizations' websites you linked, I don't think they should be used for any articles on Armenian history, as they are not scholarly sources and clearly have an aggressive anti-Armenian agenda. Anyway, without a clear criterion of what should and should not be included in the template under discussion, this discussion is unlikely to go anywhere. To clarify my position: at the very least, I think the inclusion of the ARF in the template is possibly misleading and definitely inconsistent, since, for example, the Azerbaijani Musavat Party and the Georgian Mensheviks, some members of which also helped the Nazis against the Soviet Union during the war (per Abramyan's Kavkaztsy v Abvere, p. 85ff), are not included. If the ARF is going to be included, then it's only fair that these parties be included as well. I'm going to edit the section in the article about WWII to correspond to the info in Walker's book and possibly also Abramyan if I have time to read more of it. Revolution Saga (talk) 21:31, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

P. S., I also noticed that the section referenced in the Banality of Denial book by Yair Auron is not the author's own writing but a quoted passage from a denialist Israeli historian, so take that into consideration when using that source. Best, Revolution Saga (talk) 21:38, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

I have no objection to their inclusion as well. They all did collaborate to a degree. Like you said, the lack of an established inclusion criteria leaves it open for interpretation. No matter how significant or insignificant, collaboration is collaboration. Therefore, I see no reason why they should be omitted. Archives908 (talk) 14:01, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

You should reply before reverting someone: you had the time to "no consensus" revert me but not reply to my comment when you yourself don't have consensus for inclusion?

Anyway, I'll address your objections one by one:

As per WP:BRD, your "B"old edit was "R"everted (several times), and then editors should "D"iscuss to reach a consensus.

The WP:BRD is an essay, not a policy. But even then: BOLD, REVERT, REVERT? Where was the discuss that you had to do? Why you didn't follow your own linked essay? I was the one who had to start a discussion myself.

Btw, WP:BRD is a helpful essay, but essays do not overrule policies (which are standards on wiki) such as WP:ONUS, which explicitly says that: "The responsibility for achieving consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content." — you're violating ONUS.

Revolution Saga simply suggested to avoid using that source regarding the genocide ... Revolution Saga also said above that they aren't saying it was or wasn't the case in regards to proving ARF involvement with the Nazis.

Dear colleague, we don't need to speak for others. RevolutionSaga already made their position clear and that it's at the very least misleading to have this template here, and that we (rightfully) shouldn't use Armenian genocide denialist sources for Armenian history (especially when it's controversial), that's a no-brainer. Yet somehow you don't see it with this silly justification for your denialist sources: But the genocide is not what we are discussing here and has nothing to do with this thread. — Really? Would you be ok with using blatant holocaust denying sources for Israeli controversial history topics, or Israeli history in general? Did you even fully look at the Turkish diaspora organizations' websites you linked and the blatant anti-Armenian agenda they're pushing? If you think these subpar websites could be used for this article, go ahead, discuss them in WP:RSN if you want to. As it stands, those sources do not have consensus for using in this article.

If you are suggesting that there was absolutely zero collaboration with the ARF and the Nazis, please do present your WP:RS

Dear colleague, let's make it clear: per policy, the burden is on you to prove ARF organization collaborated with Nazis, the burden isn't on me or RevolutionSaga to prove the opposite because you're the one trying to include disputed content – but even then, in case you've not fully seen RevolutionSaga's comment, they were nice enough to provide an actual historian reliable source that verbatim states the whole ARF in fact did not adopt a pro-Nazi stance. In short, your denialist sources aren’t WP:RS for Armenian history, and I’ve already explained about the other two .

My colleague, you literally don’t have WP:RS to state that ARF organisation collaborated with Nazis. Meanwhile, there is RS stating that ARF did not adopt a pro-Nazi stance. So this article which is about the ARF organisation and not some selective members (those have their own articles) therefore should not have a misleading template, per WP:RS and your failure to prove otherwise/gain consensus. Vanezi (talk) 06:38, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

Dear colleague, read the sources on the linked articles I have provided. There are multiple WP:RS which proves there was collaboration between the ARF and the Nazis. WP:ONUS has already been met. And there is no overwhelming WP:CON to remove the template from this article, therefore I will restore it. If you wish to dispute the content and the validity of those scholarly sources on those articles, then you should start a talk page discussion on the respective article. You are also more than welcome to launch an RFC, where we can get 3rd party editors to chime in. Archives908 (talk) 12:58, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

Dear Archives, your statements are simply not true:

read the sources on the linked articles I have provided. There are multiple WP:RS which proves there was collaboration between the ARF and the Nazis.

What RS? Other than the denialist sources which ought not to be used in Armenian history and do not have consensus to be used, what actual RS state that the ARF organisation collaborated with Nazis? Only WP:RS that say even something close to that state that only for selective members, and even then with context that those members made the decision in order to protect Armenians living in the German-occupied areas and to protect Armenia from a potential Turkish invasion in the event of a German victory over the Soviet Union.

When it comes to the ARF organisation itself though, you still have not presented any WP:RS to state ARF organisation collaborated with Nazis, which this article is about, ARF's article. However, on the contrary, as RevolutionSaga already shown, there are sources that state the opposite such as:

Christopher J. Walkers Armenia: The Survival of a Nation (London: Routledge, 1990, rev. 2nd ed.): "Members of the Dashnak party living in the occupied areas, including a number of names famous from the period of the republic, adopted a pro-Nazi stance. The whole Dashnak party did not take this stance; the section of the party in Cairo affirmed its loyalty to the Allies" (357)

So if you have WP:RS that state ARF organisation collaborated with Nazis, please quote them here with page numbers so all of us can WP:VERIFY it. If you don't let's just settle this discussion down dear Archives and follow the RS that I quoted above.

Finally, please remember that as it stands, the WP:ONUS in fact IS NOT met, no Wikipedian or admin will look at this discussion and say "Archives908 has consensus and met ONUS", in fact you clearly don't have consensus. So, dear colleague, please do not engage in reverts and do not restore disputed content until you have consensus, as the burden for it is on you. Vanezi (talk) 06:34, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

The Armenian Revolutionary Federation article literally states in the body: During World War II, some ARF members, specifically those living in areas under German occupation, collaborated with Nazi Germany. However, this was not the position of the entire party, and the party bureau in Cairo declared its loyalty to the Allies. The Armenian Legion, composed largely of former Soviet Red Army POWs, was led by Drastamat Kanayan. It participated in the occupation of the Crimean Peninsula and the North Caucasus.

Collaboration, to a degree, did exist. WP:RS has been provided.

You, on the other hand, continue to remove sourced content and now I'm beginning to suspect a violation of WP:NPOV. Archives908 (talk) 13:42, 2 August 2024 (UTC) Archives908 (talk) 13:42, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

You were asked for a SOURCE for ARF organisation collaborating with Nazis, you instead quote a PART of paragraph from this article (which is NOT A SOURCE) that is literally sourced by the same source I quoted above, only says "some members" and not ARF itself, and doesn't refer to ARF organisation.: if you read the source which you should per WP:V, literally next sentence after those "members", the source verbatim states that whole ARF did NOT adopt a Nazi stance and assured its loyalty to Allies in Cairo meeting:

Christopher J. Walkers Armenia: The Survival of a Nation (London: Routledge, 1990, rev. 2nd ed.): "Members of the Dashnak party living in the occupied areas, including a number of names famous from the period of the republic, adopted a pro-Nazi stance. The whole Dashnak party did not take this stance; the section of the party in Cairo affirmed its loyalty to the Allies" (357)

How can you ignore WP:RS entirely and partially quote a paragraph as if it's a source, same paragraph fragment that is referenced by my source above which goes on to say, in the same sentence, that whole ARF did not adopt a pro-Nazi stance of some members. Do you understand how wrong this is? Please do not act in this way, you're violating WP:ONUS, WP:COMPETENCE, WP:OR and WP:SYNTH - and once again, you don't have consensus when you need one especially for continuing to revert and edit-war, please read carefully word by word, idk what else to say in order for you to NOT blatantly ignore policies:

The responsibility for achieving consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content.

Vanezi (talk) 06:34, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

I added the source already- please read it. Thanks, Archives908 (talk) 13:14, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

I already said earlier that Keghart is an opinion piece. The Banality book doesn't use the term "collaborator" or phrase "supporting the Nazis". Turkish diaspora organizations' denialist websites aren't WP:RS for Armenian history as you've been told already by two different users. What is this reliable source you're talking about that you've "added"? And if you have a WP:RS, where does it dispute what RS such as Walkers says which I've repeatedly quoted above, that the whole ARF party did not in fact take a pro-Nazi stance like some members and that the section of ARF in Cairo explicitly affirmed its loyalty to the Allies? Do you have an issue with following WP:VERIFY and providing WP:RS with page numbers/quotes when required, especially when you keep going against WP:ONUS and restoring misleading controversial content that contradicts the actual Walkers WP:RS quoted here? Vanezi (talk) 18:49, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Here you go: , , , , , , , , . Archives908 (talk) 14:01, 10 August 2024 (UTC) Archives908 (talk) 14:01, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

I hope you understand that dumping sources here with no quotes isn't exactly providing quotes when asked especially for challenged contentious material that contradicts the quoted source here, see WP:VERIFY:

direct quotations,
material whose verifiability has been challenged,
material whose verifiability is likely to be challenged, and
contentious material about living and recently deceased persons.

And there are several issues already even without having any quotes to confirm your claim of ARF organisation collaborating with Nazis:

You cite Walker twice in your list, the same Walker who literally does not support your position (I quoted Walker already several times and he verbatim says that ARF did not take a pro-Nazi stance and affirmed loyalty to Allies in the Cairo meeting).

One of the other sources you posted is a section from Auron Yair's book, which RevolutionSaga already explained isn't actually written by Yair himself but quoted from an Israeli denialist historian, which obviously shouldn't be used for Armenian history, as already told by two users here for other denialist sources.

That leaves us with 7 sources; could you be kind enough and provide quotations from these sources, per WP:VERIFY, that confirm ARF organisation collaboration with Nazis? Something tells me you didn't actually read the sources and just mass posted them here from some article; otherwise you wouldn't have posted Walker twice who not only doesn't support but contradicts your position. Vanezi (talk) 11:22, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Firstly, I took many hours to review various sources per your request. You making assumptions is not conducive nor productive to this conversation, and quite frankly is rude. It's also ironic that you are assuming that I haven't read these sources, yet you openly admit to not reviewing them yourself. So please, as a gentile reminder, stay focused on the topic at hand, and avoid making assumptions about editors per WP:TPG#YES.

Secondly, I may have listed the same source twice by mistake. Please WP:CALM down the language, as you are making it seem that I have committed the most egregious offence on Misplaced Pages -_- I am not a machine, dearest colleague.

You requested specific pages numbers in your comment above, and I have taken much time to curate the list, read through the information, and provide you with the precise page numbers which discusses ARF collaboration with the Nazis. It is quite impractical to copy and paste paragraphs upon paragraphs upon paragraphs of information onto this talk page. In some cases, there is pertinent information spread across large bodies of text, making it difficult to copy here. Furthermore, I do not wish to break any WP:COPYVIOs as I have made a few mistakes with that in the past and have been warned.

Instead, you must now take the time to review the sources I have provided as per your request. You will notice specific page numbers provided for your convenience. If it is a matter of you having difficulty accessing any of these sources, please see WP:WRE for assistance. I have asked members of the Resource Exchange for help, and they are truly amazing folks! Enjoy :) Archives908 (talk) 14:25, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

I have looked through all of Archives908's sources, and none of them claim the ARF ever had a Nazi collaborator position, just a few members (some former) did. Sahakyan points out that Carlson refrained from outright making this accusation (p. 293). Berberian specifics only "a few ARF members in Paris and Berlin" (p. 72) had any contact with Nazi Germany. Thomas does not even mention the ARF directly. KhndzorUtogh (talk) 21:25, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

None of them claim collaboration, yet, at the same time, a few ARF members did collaborate. Hmm seems quite contradictory to me. Per WP:WEIGHT, pages must fairly represent all significant viewpoints in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in those sources. Collaboration, despite it being minimal with just a handful of ARF members, did exist. I'm not saying we need to write paragraphs upon paragraphs about this (as that would violate WP:UNDUE), but it does merit inclusion on the template. A fair WP:BALANCE should be maintained. Prominence isn't given on this topic, since it is minimal, but it should still be included because there was indeed a degree of collaboration. Furthermore, there is no established inclusion criteria for the template itself. The metric for what level of collaboration must be met to warrant inclusion or exclusion has yet to be discussed or determined. If we are going to say that the ARF's collaboration was so minimal that it does not warrant inclusion, then a complete review of all the other collaborationists on that template is necessary and a WP:CON would be needed. This is a totally different discussion to be had on that template, not here. Archives908 (talk) 22:33, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Is there any other organization in the Collaboration template that is only listed because of a few members, and not an official stance by the organization? There doesn't appear to be. KhndzorUtogh (talk) 21:26, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

It's not about whether there was an "official stance" or not, it's about what degree of collaboration merits inclusion on the template. Collaboration need not be formalized for it to still be considered collaboration. And this is exactly my point. ARF members (albeit a minority) did actively collaborate with the Nazis. They even led the Armenian Legion (a force established to fight alongside the Nazis, led by one of the most well known ARF members Drastamat Kanayan). Why should this example of collaboration be considered any less significant then the other organizations with official stances? It's still the same thing. Archives908 (talk) 21:50, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

According to Walker, the ARF party did not have a collaboration stance and was even pro-Allies. According to Suny, the ARF had no affiliation with the Armenian Legion and even dissociated with it. Based on these sources, the degree of collaboration is too small, contradictory, and unofficial to merit including the template. KhndzorUtogh (talk) 21:25, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

You're only focusing on the information you want to focus on. There are other sources I included which do highlight ARF collaboration with the Nazis. Even this academic article (from an Armenian source) states: "Their distraction could take them too far. Garegin Nzhdeh, a hero of World War I and the First Republic of Armenia, collaborated with the Nazis before and during World War II." Or perhaps this which discusses the foundation of the Armenian Legion and ARF's Drastamat Kanayan's role in it. It states, "At the beginning, General Drastamat Kanayan (Drone) comes to Berlin, and local influential Armenians, in particular Heinz Guderian, an Armenian of the Wehrmacht, organize a meeting with Reichsführer Himmler of the SS." and "And the guarantee of this will be the creation of the Armenian Legion. In my opinion, that organization can protect its homeland from all enemies, of course. With our help, Dro visits the military camp that prepares future Armenian legionnaires, as well as the prisoner of war camp, where he convinced captured Armenians to join the Armenian Legion. For many, joining the Armenian Legion meant getting a new homeland." Or maybe this one and this (registration needed) where we learn that Garegin Nzhdeh, Hayk Asatryan, and Hayk Asatryan (all very prominent ARF members) actively tried to persuade Armenians to fight for Nazi Germany. "Nationalist Armenian figures and exiled officers, along with German high-ranking officials and officers, visited prisoner-of-war camps, where they met captured Armenian soldiers and officers of the Red Army, did explanatory work with them, trying to save them from inevitable death. Purposeful propaganda work was carried out among the prisoners of war, convincing the Armenian soldiers that the enemy of Armenia and them is not Germany and Hitler, but Stalin and Bolshevism. Many Armenian soldiers and officers, listening to the outstanding national figures and national heroes, among whom were Garegin Nzhdeh, DrastamatKanayan /Dro/, Hayk Asatryan, Alfred Muradyan and others, voluntarily joined the national liberation struggle and joined the battalions of the national legion." Or maybe here, when official cooperation was seemingly pledged, during a ceremony where "First the German flag of the armed forces was raised on the flagstaff and then the three-color flag of the Armenian Republic of 1918-1920 was raised on the other flagstaff" and high ranking Kanayan proceeded to state, "Germany and not the USSR was the ally of Armenians." Or maybe this which mentions Armenian troops (led by ARF Nzhdeh) engaging in battles from the North Caucasus to Crimea to Southern France and the Netherlands in loyalty to the Nazis. Or perhaps this, which states, "The Armenian publication, ‘Dro’ Drastamat Kanayan: Armenia’s First Defence Minister of the Modern Era‘ by Antranig Chalabian reveals that Dr Paul Rohrbach and Artashes Abeghian published a book in 1934 called ‘Armenian-Aryan’ in collaboration with a number of Nazi intellectuals which “strove to prove that Armenians belong to the Aryan race and the Armenian language to the Indo-European family of languages.” (p.234) The year before, in 1933, “Goebbels had formally declared that the Armenians were Aryan.” (p.248). These decisions provided the ideological cover for General Dro and other Dashnak leaders, along with the large Armenian Legion, to fight alongside the Nazis on the Eastern Front." Let's also not forget the Armenians who joined the 58th Panzer Corps and the 19th Army (part of the German army's Eastern Legion of Wehrmacht/ see Wehrmacht foreign volunteers and conscripts) at the command of ARF officials, which estimates vary between 20,000 and 100,000 people. What about this highly organized, planned, and significant level of collaboration seems "too small"? Archives908 (talk) 22:51, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

References

Walker, Christopher J. (1990) . Armenia: The Survival of a Nation (Rev. 2nd ed.). London: Routledge. pp. 356–358. ISBN 0-415-04684-X.
Kurt Mehner, Germany. Oberkommando der Wehrmacht, Bundesarchiv (Germany). Militärarchiv, Arbeitskreis für Wehrforschung. Die Geheimen Tagesberichte der Deutschen Wehrmachtführung im Zweiten Weltkrieg, 1939–1945: 1. Dezember 1943–29. Februar 1944. p. 51 (in German).
Sahakyan, Vahe (2015). Between Host-Countries and Homeland: Institutions, Politics and Identities in the Post-Genocide Armenian Diaspora (1920s to 1980s) (Ph.D. dissertation). University of Michigan. hdl:2027.42/113641. Retrieved 10 August 2024.
Berberian, Houri (2020). "From Nationalist-Socialist to National Socialist? The Shifting Politics of Abraham Giulkhandanian". In Der Matossian, Bedross (ed.). The First Republic of Armenia (1918-1920) on Its Centenary: Politics, Gender, and Diplomacy. Fresno: The Press at California State University, Fresno. pp. 53–88. ISBN 9780912201672.
Auron, Yair (2003). The Banality of Denial: Israel and the Armenian Genocide. New Brunswick, NJ: Transaction Publishers. p. 262. ISBN 0-7658-0834-X.
Ailsby, Christopher (2004). Hitler's Renegades: Foreign Nationals in the Service of the Third Reich. Staplehurst, Kent: Spellmount. pp. 123–124. ISBN 1-57488-838-2.
Thomas, Nigel (2000). The German Army 1939-45 (5). Stephen Andrew. Oxford: Osprey Publishing. pp. 43–44. ISBN 1-85532-797-X.
Walker, Christopher J. (1990) . Armenia: The Survival of a Nation (Rev. 2nd ed.). London: Routledge. pp. 356–358. ISBN 0-415-04684-X.
Berberian, Houri (2020). "From Nationalist-Socialist to National Socialist? The Shifting Politics of Abraham Giulkhandanian". In Der Matossian, Bedross (ed.). The First Republic of Armenia (1918-1920) on Its Centenary: Politics, Gender, and Diplomacy. Fresno: The Press at California State University, Fresno. p. 54. ISBN 9780912201672.
De Waal, Thomas (2015). Great Catastrophe: Armenians and Turks in the Shadow of Genocide. Oxford University Press. p. 112.

More than half the sources you are posting up here are outright Armenian Genocide denialists who have a clear agenda to minimize the suffering of the genocide by exaggerating the extent of Armenian collaboration with the Nazis during the war while the rest are just websites with dubious credentials. So far the other editors have effectively demonstrated how much caution must be exercised when approaching this topic while the above paragraph is just a mishmash of disinformation strung up together, bordering on original research. I mean, even the Armenian Legion was made up mainly of former Soviet army POWs, not members of the ARF party. Everything else you've posted is derivative and a reflection of the activities of a literal handful of ARF party members (which were otherwise repudiated by other party leaders at the time). This argument is threadbare and is being made in bad-faith. Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 13:08, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

Read my above comment, posted yesterday. Almost all of these sources are Armenian. Archives908 (talk) 13:35, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

And my observation still stands. You've compiled a massive nothing-burger. The talk page is about whether the template belongs on the page, which, it doesn't, because, as a number of editors have already pointed out, the ARF did not make a party-wide decision to side with the Axis. Some individual leaders deciding to do so does not condemn the entire party. Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 17:30, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

Have you even read this thread? If you did, surely you would have noticed that we have already discussed this. The template does not just include formal allies of the Nazis, but of all collaborationists. Just because there wasn't a formalized relationship, collaboration between the ARF (in a limited non-formal capacity) still existed. These were high-ranking members of the ARF, leaders of the organization which directly engaged and orchestrated plans with the Nazis. Unfortunately, the template does not cover individual persons, but rather various entities/countries. The ARF is the entity to which these collaborators were members of. So yes, this does, by extension, if not by default, link the party to it. Let's not whitewash this. Archives908 (talk) 13:57, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

lol, no, it doesn't. As someone else mentioned, Nzdeh quit the party, Dro was acting on his own initiative, and most everyone else made decisions based on local circumstances rather than party directives. If we were to use your logic, we might as well indict the Democrats and Republicans just because some among their number shared Nazi sympathies or supported them in one way or another during the war. Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 16:59, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

Lol Nzdeh quit after the initial collaboration. That does not negate his role. Also, "sympathy" is vastly different compared to ARF members persuading tens of thousands of Armenians to fight in the Nazi Wehrmacht. Archives908 (talk) 17:32, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

Those rank-and-file soldiers were virtually all from the Soviet Union, fully brought up in the Soviet milieu and with scarcely a soldier who would have known much about the ARF at the time of their conscription. Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 20:00, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

You're deflecting. What thousands of soldiers may or may not have thought about is WP:CRYSTAL. The focus here is who were they conscripted by? The answer is high-ranking ARF elites. The next question is why? The answer is to fight alongside the Nazis. And what does this entail? Collaboration. Archives908 (talk) 20:29, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

Gosh. You really come off like a novice in this field. You're reducing what was a very complex issue into a very one-dimensional matter. Please read up more on this subject, and then come back here in a couple months if you really want to make a meaningful contribution rather than score cheap political points. Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 14:27, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

@MarshallBagramyan as you noticed from the discussion, it's evidently clear per this talk that the consensus is near unanimously in favor of removing the misleading template from the article. If Archives908 continues edit-warring and restoring the template against the clear talk consensus, it is likely to be grounds for a more serious discussion involving administrators. Vanezi (talk) 14:04, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

GA Reassessment

Armenian Revolutionary Federation

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch • Watch article reassessment page • GAN review not found

Result: Delisted. Hog Farm _Talk 22:28, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Bloated, seven-paragraph lede, numerous uncited statements and paragraphs, and numerous one-line paragraphs. Z1720 (talk) 19:00, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Delist per nom; Media section is also unsourced and suffers from MOS:PSUEDOHEAD. Queen of Hearts 08:14, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Portals

@Archives908: Hello! I meant for the Middle East portal to be a proxy for an "Armenia" portal that does not exist. Portal:Armenia was deleted in 2019. I wanted to have some geographical portal that could best fit the place of "Armenia". It had to do with https://ciaotest.cc.columbia.edu/olj/meria/meria00_nog01.html (and as the Ottoman Empire was relevant to Western Armenia) WhisperToMe (talk) 03:23, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

Greetings! I understand, however, Armenia is not within the modern political borders of the Middle East (see this article for further details). Regards, Archives908 (talk) 03:30, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

Technically it would be in West Asia/Southwest Asia, but those portals don't exist. All we have is Portal:Asia WhisperToMe (talk) 03:33, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

I'm aware of that. Per longstanding WP:CON at Europe, the three countries of the Caucasus, Cyprus, Turkey, and Russia may be placed in both Europe and Asia related articles/lists. Feel free to add both Europe and Asia portals, or maintain the status quo and keep geography out of it (mind you, the ARF is an affiliate of the Party of European Socialists. I'm unaware of any modern connections to any political entities in Asia). Cheers, Archives908 (talk) 03:47, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

I decided to add both Asia and Europe portals as the party has its headquarters in the modern state of Armenia. (from this source: "Yerevan, Mher Mkrtchyan 12/1") WhisperToMe (talk) 03:53, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

Categories: