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This is a page for working on Arbitration decisions. It provides for suggestions by Arbitrators and other users and for comment by arbitrators, the parties and others. Anyone who edits should sign all suggestions and comments. After the analysis of ] here and development of proposed principles, findings of fact, and remedies, Arbitrators will place items in which they have confidence and vote at ]. This is a page for working on Arbitration decisions. It provides for suggestions by Arbitrators and other users and for comment by arbitrators, the parties and others. Anyone who edits should sign all suggestions and comments. After the analysis of ] here and development of proposed principles, findings of fact, and remedies, Arbitrators will place items in which they have confidence and vote at ].


<div style="background: #ffff99; border: 1px solid #cc9900; margin: 2em 0 0 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px;">
==Motions and requests by the parties==
This page has been blanked as a courtesy to prevent sensitive material associated with editors' real life identities from showing up on internet searches. The page has not been deleted and the former discussion is available through the edit history. Please do not revert this page without discussing it with an arbitration ] or a member of the ]. ] 21:55, 29 March 2007 (UTC)</div>
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==Proposed principles==

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===Honey and Vinegar===
1) Other users may be more sensitive than expected. When such situations are encountered it may be more useful to the project to soothe their feelings, than to make demands. If you make a mistake and an unexpected reaction results, it may be helpful to apologize. If another makes a mistake, forgiveness may reduce the tension.

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::'''Proposed''' &bull; From the Husnock Case. Cheers, ✎ <span style="font-family: Verdana">] ( ] &bull; ] )</span> 17:01, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

:'''Comment by others:''' Very true, but for the relevance of this to be judged we will need evidence. Judged irrelevant in the Husnock case. ] <sup> ]</sup> 22:21, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
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===Conflict of Interest===
2) If one feels it necessary to make changes to Misplaced Pages articles despite a real or perceived conflict of interest, it is strongly encouraged one submit content for community review on the article's talk page or file a Request for Comment to the wider community, and to let one or more trusted community members judge whether the material belongs in Misplaced Pages.

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:: '''Proposed''' &bull; From the ] guidelines. Cheers, ✎ <span style="font-family: Verdana">] ( ] &bull; ] )</span> 17:03, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

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===Neutral Point of View===
3) All Misplaced Pages articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view, representing views fairly, proportionately and without bias.

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::'''Proposed''' &bull; From the ] policy. Cheers, ✎ <span style="font-family: Verdana">] ( ] &bull; ] )</span> 17:06, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

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===Inflammatory Sites are Inappropriate===
4) Sites that are inflammatory in nature regarding living persons or users of Misplaced Pages are unacceptable external links on Misplaced Pages.

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::Rather too broad, as worded; attack sites targetting a ''specific'' person are not the same thing as sites that are inflammatory regarding "living persons" generally. At the very least, an exception must be made for links in articles about those specific sites; otherwise, this will place us in the bizarre position of having a full-blown article about a site but not being able to actually indicate what that site is. ] 21:26, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
:::Is there a better way to word this? What I intend with this is that attacks sites cited in biographies of living persons are unacceptable, doubly so when that person is also a Wikipedian. Cheers, ✎ <span style="font-family: Verdana">] ( ] &bull; ] )</span> 21:34, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

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::'''Proposed''' &bull; Big issue in this case. Cheers, ✎ <span style="font-family: Verdana">] ( ] &bull; ] )</span> 17:13, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

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::Perhaps to a certain extent this depends on the specifics? If the site said "Person X sucks and Person X=Editor Y at Misplaced Pages" then that most certainly falls under ]. But I'm not sure we absolutely want to outlaw sites that are, say, generally critical of George Bush, who is a living person, after all. I think a more specific adjective in place of "inflammatory" would be better, as it stands this is a shade too general. ] <sup> ]</sup> 18:35, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
:::The distinction comes in the difference between criticising someone, and attacking them. There is a fine line of course, and a fair bit of grey area. I tend to believe it is best to err on the side of caution when it persaints to ], and when it pertains to fellow Wikipedians. Cheers, ✎ <span style="font-family: Verdana">] ( ] &bull; ] )</span> 19:39, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

====Links to attack sites====
4.1) Attack sites targetting living people (including Misplaced Pages editors) should not be linked to except in articles where they themselves are the topic of discussion.

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::More specific variation on the above. ] 21:43, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

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::'''Agree''' &bull; More or less what I was getting at. Cheers, ✎ <span style="font-family: Verdana">] ( ] &bull; ] )</span>

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::Can we possibly emphasise the "in articles" bit? ''']''' 06:38, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

===No Personal Attacks===
5) Personally charged attacks are inflammatory, divisive, and contribute to a negative environment on Misplaced Pages. They should be avoided. Occasional lapses in civility may be forgiven, but continued infractions may result in a block.

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::'''Proposed''' &bull; Common sense really. ✎ <span style="font-family: Verdana">] ( ] &bull; ] )</span> 17:58, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

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===Real-life feuds or disputes===
<s>6) The importation of real-life feuds or disputes into Misplaced Pages is disruptive and inappropriate. Innumerable other venues exist for resolving or perpetuating real-life disagreements, from the legal system to personal websites or Usenet. Misplaced Pages is not such a venue; editors invovled in an ongoing real-life conflict should avoid editing Misplaced Pages articles directly dealing with said conflict.</s>

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::<s>'''Proposed''' • From ] ("Misplaced Pages is not a battleground") and ]. ] 18:58, 30 January 2007 (UTC)</s>
:::<s>I '''agree''', though the wording is a bit problematic. I have tried to reword it in a more clearcut way under 6.1 ✎ <span style="font-family: Verdana">] ( ] &bull; ] )</span> 21:08, 30 January 2007 (UTC)</s>
::::<s>Sure, but I think that (particularly in this case) the phrase "editors invovled in an ongoing real-life conflict should avoid editing Misplaced Pages articles directly dealing with said conflict" is relevant. ] 22:58, 30 January 2007 (UTC)</s>
:::::<s>I entirely agree, but it should probably be a separate principle. Cheers, ✎ <span style="font-family: Verdana">] ( ] &bull; ] )</span> 23:03, 30 January 2007 (UTC)</s>
::<s>Fair enough... I'll strike this through and start a condensed version, to build off of your citation of ] (definitely also relevant here). ] 23:18, 30 January 2007 (UTC)</s>

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===Misplaced Pages is not a Battleground===
6.1) Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia first and foremost. It is not a place for people to hold grudges, import personal conflicts, or nurture hate or fear. This is contrary to the goals of the project, and it is divisive, inflammatory, and poisons the well, as it tends to drive away contributors.
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::'''Proposed''' &bull; Rewording of 6 above. ✎ <span style="font-family: Verdana">] ( ] &bull; ] )</span> 22:01, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

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===Real-life disputes===
7) Editors involved in an ongoing real-life conflict with another party should not edit Misplaced Pages articles directly dealing with said dispute. The correction of clear violations of ] is an exception.

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::'''Proposed''' • As an extension of ] and ] (..."not a battleground"). ] 23:26, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

:::'''Comment''' I have never had any ongoing disputes with Ilena at Usenet, and have always avoided her when possible. I have never participated there, AFAICR. She came here with her real-life dispute with Barrett and all who share his mainstream POV, and discovered me. She then started attacking me as well. She has a COI problem here and should not edit any articles or touch any links (anywhere) related to Barrett, Quackwatch, etc.. There are plenty of other (antagonistic) editors who already do that. Her tendency to risk making BLP violations makes this a doubly pressing matter. -- <i><b><font color="004000">]</font></b></i> (<b><font color="990099" size="1">]</font></b>) 23:35, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

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===''Audi alteram partem‎''===
8) When in a dispute, it is important that all parties involved listen to and acknowledge opposing views, and respect the right of others to hold them.

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::It's certainly possible for parties in a dispute to be clearly wrong, or acting in bad faith; while listening to others' views is always good, I'm not aware of anything that justifies requiring that they be respected in all cases. ] 13:37, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
::*How would you know an opposing viewpoint is invalid if you don't even listen it? ✎ <span style="font-family: Verdana">] ( ] &bull; ] )</span> 21:52, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
:::* Hmm? As I said, "listening to others' views is always good"; but, having ''listened'' to them, there's nothing that requires you to ''respect'' them. ] 23:15, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
::::*One can respect that another holds a position without agreeing with the position. Cheers, ✎ <span style="font-family: Verdana">] ( ] &bull; ] )</span> 00:45, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
::How about changing the last clause to "and respect the right of others to hold opposing views"? ] ] 18:21, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
:::That sounds very reasonable. I went ahead and made that change. Cheers, ✎ <span style="font-family: Verdana">] ( ] &bull; ] )</span> 19:06, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
::::That's much better in meaning, but introduces a slight grammatical problem: "listen to... the right of others". I've tried my hand at correcting it, but it may be needlessly verbose now. ] 19:50, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
:::::Your fix looks good to me. ✎ <span style="font-family: Verdana">] ( ] &bull; ] )</span> 19:56, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

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::'''Proposed''' &bull; A significant reason why this situation elevated was a failure of several involved sides to acknowledge the veracity of the other's position. Cheers, ✎ <span style="font-family: Verdana">] ( ] &bull; ] )</span> 23:58, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
::"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." -Aristotle (] 22:58, 1 February 2007 (UTC))
::]'s first law: "Collaboration trumps all other policies." -- ] 22:58, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

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===Undue weight===
1) Per ], care must be taken not to give undue weight to minority points of view. Editors who are, in real life, proponents of a minority point of view, may be restricted from directly editing articles related to their off-wikipedia agenda. This is an extension of the ] policy and the strong consensus on ].

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:: Proposed. <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 15:55, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

===Editors may have opinions===
1) Content must be neutral, editors are not required to be impartial. While editing with a conflict of interest is deprecated, it is expected that editors will have their own opinions on articles they edit, and these opinions may be expressed in Talk and elsewhere provided that the end result in article space complies with ], and provided that their advocacy of their views is not aggressive or disruptive.

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:: Proposed. Editors may have opinions (otherwise you'll need to ban me). <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 17:16, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

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===Ilena===
1) {{Userlinks|Ilena}} is Ilena Rosenthal, a women's health activist, see ] and . She was the appellant in ], defendant at the trial court level.

1a) Ilena is also an activist promoting the theory that women's health is damaged by silicone breast implants. This theory is, at present, a minority dissenting view and is not widely accepted by the scientific community. Ilena's websites are a resource promoting this theory. These sites make no pretence of being a neutral resource, being openly adversarial in their approach.

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::Notes ] 16:47, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

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:: Proposed 1a in respect of Ilena's websites.

===Stephen Barrett===
2) ] is a retired physician and health activist. He is one of the founders of the ] (NCAHF) and webmaster of twenty-two websites that describe what he considers to be "quackery and health fraud," most notably ]. While this dispute revolves about him and his involvements, his editing is believed to be limited to comments on talk pages, {{Userlinks|Sbinfo}}.

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::Proposed ] 20:16, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

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:: Some modifying remarks: Barrett is ''a'' founder, not ''the'' founder, of the NCAHF. Just a small difference. The dispute certainly involves the ''subject'' of Barrett, but the subject of this RfArb is about user behavior, not about content issues or Barrett himself. That would sidetrack the real issues here. The original and proper title of this RfArb was "Fyslee, Ilena, et al.". Regardless of the title change, the issues are the same, since the article has been stable for a long time, and was stable when this RfArb was started. -- <i><b><font color="004000">]</font></b></i> (<b><font color="990099" size="1">]</font></b>) 00:04, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

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===Fyslee===
3) {{Userlinks|Fyslee}} is Paul Lee, a health activist who participates in a number of internet sites critical of alternative medicine, see and

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::Notes ] 01:48, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

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===Conflict of interest: Ilena===
4) Ilena has edited against ], including adding links to her own site(s) and editing articles about herself and her endeavours. New editors are not expected to know about the Byzantine rule structure of Misplaced Pages, but are expected to understand and take note when rules are pointed out. Ilena was slow to accept consensus in respect of conflict of interest and civility. Independent parties were involved in the process of bringing these policies to her attention. Some of Ilena's edits are problematic, removing well-sourced material from articles on controversial subjects, e.g. , or introducing questionable material advancing an agenda . Most of Ilena's contributions are directly related to Barrett v Rosenthal and participants.

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:: Proposed <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 16:17, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

===Conflict of interest: Fyslee===
5) Fyslee is skirting the margins of ] through his edits to the articles on Barrett and his endeavours. Since his involvement was on a voluntary basis, and in respect of only the Healthfraud list, the conflict is not a strong one. For the most part, these edits appear to be reasonable, and edits to NCAHF-related articles are balanced by a wider participation in other areas. It is possible that Fyslee's bias is less apparent in these edits for being in support of the scientific mainstream - while the scientific point of view (SPOV) and neutral point of view (NPOV) are not synonymous, per ] they may be treated as approximately synonymous when dealing with scientific issues, albeit not to the exclusion of covering significant minority views.

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:: ] is quite correct about POV. The NPOV policy is definitely not identical to the scientific or skeptical POV. I am very conscious of my well-informed and chosen biases (not the same as uninformed prejudice), and do not consider my POV to be the same as NPOV, IOW I seek to avoid the ], and seek to collaborate with other editors who hold opposing POV. I do not see it as my duty to prevent their POV from being represented in articles, as long as it is done in harmony with Misplaced Pages policies. On the contrary. -- <i><b><font color="004000">]</font></b></i> (<b><font color="990099" size="1">]</font></b>) 17:25, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

:::: I am sorry, but my experience with all parties forces me to disagree strongly with most of what was written above. I believe Fyslee's ] is a very, very strong one, despite his claims to be appear otherwise. I believe the evidence is extremely clear that Fyslee has functioned as Barrett's ] on many, many internet medium for years, Misplaced Pages being yet another since December, 2005. It honestly feels to me that when he came here, he set up "shop" to expand their mutual "anti-quackery" ] vehicle. Remember, Barrett calls himself, "the ].

:::: I will use one recent edit that is illustrative of hundreds as an example of why I disagree that Fyslee's edits are in any way "reasonable."

:::: Regarding the ] article: I have been told I have COI problems with this page. I have no relation with the article, except that I know many people who have either gone there and loved their education, or who have been treated by graduates. Dr. Clark who is discussed here, was a co-defendant of mine but someone I never have met. She and Fyslee and Barrett have also been in litigation (on opposite sides), yet Fyslee is welcome to edit with not even a nod. This article looked totally like it had come from a page on Quackwatch when I went to edit there. The graduates listed were both under severe criticism and /or lawsuits by Barrett and Quackwatch. I thought some balance would be created by adding a graduate that they were not suing. So I added a link to another graduate -- a notable and respected author You can see that within 5 minutes Fyslee immediately removed it and replaced it with a Quackwatch link which was a blatant shot at the school quoting Barrett advising "avoiding both the school and its alumni." This is, in my opinion, not reasonable, nor is unique to his editing.

:::: Thank you very much for considering my evidence. <b><font color="999900">]</font></b> <font color="#999999" size="2">]</font> 17:45, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

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:: Proposed, a bit clumsy but I think you know what I mean. <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 16:17, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

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==Proposed remedies==
<small>''Note: All remedies that refer to a period of time, for example to a ban of X months or a revert parole of Y months, are to run concurrently unless otherwise stated.''</small>

===Ilena Banned===
1) For disruptive editing, continued personal attacks and incivility, Ilena is banned from editing Misplaced Pages for six months.

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::It's rather premature to discuss remedies when there are no corresponding findings of fact (and, more importantly, no actual evidence presented in the case). ] 13:35, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
:::There will be, don't worry. Try to reserve judgment until I've posted all the sections of my statement. I've just been very tried and stressed in personal life lately - organisation isn't coming very easily. My apologies, ✎ <span style="font-family: Verdana">] ( ] &bull; ] )</span> 19:25, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

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::'''Proposed''' &bull; It is with great sadness that I table this motion, but recent events have made it a necessity. Cheers, ✎ <span style="font-family: Verdana">] ( ] &bull; ] )</span> 08:48, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

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:: My English is pretty rusty after so many years away from the states, but I suppose you mean to "propose this motion", rather than "table this motion" (which would mean to put off an existing motion and not deal with it yet). I wish you would activate your email..... -- ] 10:18, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

::: Just as a point of semantics in response to Fyslee, I don't know where Peter is located geographically, but I believe he's using the British/Canadian meaning of "to table," meaning "to place before the body for consideration," rather than the U.S. meaning of postponing deliberation. See ]. ] 10:45, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

:::: Ahh! Learned something new there. In that case it should be reworded to remove any ambiguity. -- ] 11:33, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

::::: In Canadian law, the term is to table, as described above by NYB. ✎ <span style="font-family: Verdana">] ( ] &bull; ] )</span> 11:46, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

:::::: Yes, I understand that. Therefore there needs to be used a term that can't be misunderstood ''by anyone''. -- ] 13:09, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

::Again, no evidence, so it's hard to judge, but perhaps a little punitive? I think there are better ways to sort this out than an outright ban for six months. Not sure that will really serve any purpose. ] <sup> ]</sup> 22:24, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

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Latest revision as of 13:35, 2 January 2009

This is a page for working on Arbitration decisions. It provides for suggestions by Arbitrators and other users and for comment by arbitrators, the parties and others. Anyone who edits should sign all suggestions and comments. After the analysis of /Evidence here and development of proposed principles, findings of fact, and remedies, Arbitrators will place items in which they have confidence and vote at /Proposed decision.

This page has been blanked as a courtesy to prevent sensitive material associated with editors' real life identities from showing up on internet searches. The page has not been deleted and the former discussion is available through the edit history. Please do not revert this page without discussing it with an arbitration Clerk or a member of the Arbitration committee. Thatcher131 21:55, 29 March 2007 (UTC)