| Revision as of 05:45, 17 June 2022 editDejvid (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users7,660 edits →The lead seems logic-less← Previous edit |
Latest revision as of 17:59, 30 September 2024 edit undoCewbot (talk | contribs)Bots7,281,912 editsm Maintain {{WPBS}}: 7 WikiProject templates. Remove 1 deprecated parameter: importance.Tag: Talk banner shell conversion |
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==Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment== |
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] This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between <span class="mw-formatted-date" title="2020-09-01">1 September 2020</span> and <span class="mw-formatted-date" title="2020-12-18">18 December 2020</span>. Further details are available ]. Student editor(s): ]. |
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{{small|Above undated message substituted from ] by ] (]) 04:23, 18 January 2022 (UTC)}} |
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==Attribution== |
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] (]) 02:18, 21 June 2016 (UTC) |
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] (]) 02:18, 21 June 2016 (UTC) |
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== Chevalier d'Eon == |
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== Assyria implausible claim == |
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{{ping|Ryk72}} The section on the '''Chevalier d'Eon''' was {{diff|Transgender history|728375873|728375792|removed from the article}} by with the summary, "Chevalier d'Eon is not widely recognised as transgender in the modern sense." |
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What sense is that? The ] lived 49 years as a man and 33 years as woman, while claiming to have been assigned female at birth, although that was fiction. He was transgender by the definition in the ] of ]. By what justification do you feel he should not be included here? Please revert this change, or explain. ] (]) 02:24, 5 July 2016 (UTC) |
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:Furthermore, nothing that came before "modern" times would count as "transgender in the modern sense" by definition. But this is an article about transgender history, and history starts in the past with ancient and less developed concepts than the ones we are used to. The modern concept of transgender didn't spring forth in our time with no antecedents, in fact, it goes back centuries or millennia, as near as we are able to determine. That the word did not exist before 1965, or the modern concept did not exist before some recent point in time, is not an argument for excluding the historical developments that led to the modern concept, any more than it would be in the history of other ideas. |
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:That would be like excluding from an article about "The History of Banking" people trading cowrie shells or salt for other goods because this is "not banking in the modern sense." Of course it's not, but it was an ancient precursor which led eventually to banking, after many changes and evolution over time. In the same way, there are ancient precursors to the modern concept of transgender, and they are fully appropriate to include in an article entitled ], including the case of the Chavlier d'Eon, as well as that of Herculine Barbin who also deserves a mention. |
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:If there is no objection, I plan to restore text about these two individuals to the section on France in a couple of weeks. ] (]) 06:31, 17 July 2016 (UTC) |
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::Thanks for the comprehensive response; it is genuinely appreciated. Some worthwhile points are made, and I think we might reach a consensus for some inclusion here. One particular issue, however, is that there is currently no mention of ''Transgender'' in the main portion of the ] article; there is categorisation, but nothing supportive of in the article text. From some initial research, I think there is likely sufficient reliable sourcing to address this at that article, which would then support an inclusion here. I do, however, think it likely that we would need to couch such inclusions (both here and there) in a "modern interpretations are ..." or "modern scholars consider ..." framework to ]. I would be immediately supportive of an addition here covering Havelock Ellis' term ''"eonism"'', and/or covering The Beaumont Society, both with specific reference to the Chevalier. As a side note, I'd also be interested in including more in this article on the experiences of non-famous transgender persons, perhaps with some information on legal status & cultural acceptance over time; and also more on the experiences in various cultures. Thoughts? - ] <sup>]</sup> 08:30, 31 July 2016 (UTC) |
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== Chile == |
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Expanded ] section with some information about ]. It could probably be tightened up a bit, and needs another citation. Pinging ]. ] (]) 01:17, 4 June 2019 (UTC) |
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::{{u|Mathglot}} added Carvajal citation. ] (]) 02:41, 4 June 2019 (UTC) |
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== Restructuring == |
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This article was divided into a coarse binary of ==Ancient history== and the ==Modern period==, specified as beginning with The Enlightenment, which were then subdivided into geographical sections, in which content was then ordered chronologically again. However, many groups the article discusses stretch across that arbitrary dividing line, like American categories (two-spirits; muxe, etc), Balkan sworn virgins, hijras, some African categories, etc, which existed from the pre-European-Enlightenment period into the modern period or even present day. As the article became more complete, content about these would end up fragmented or duplicated in each L2's L3 section (e.g., both in ==Ancient history== ===India=== and ==Modern period== ===India===, or else one or the other L3 would be incomplete). I restructured the article so it simply looks at the chronology of each area all in one section . ] (]) 23:21, 6 June 2019 (UTC) |
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: This makes good sense. It’s somewhat at the expense of an overall chronological view, and in particular, at the top level there is no simple way to see how far back it goes. How about a new top-level section called "History" (which could be divided into, perhaps, Antiquity, Modern, 21st-century) that would give a brief overview chronologically? ] (]) 02:09, 7 June 2019 (UTC) |
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: Well, obviously not "History", doh; the article is already "Transgender history"; so something else. Not timeline, because that would imply a listing of individual events as is typical for timeline articles; maybe, "Chronology"? "Evolution"? Something else? ] (]) 11:23, 7 June 2019 (UTC) |
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:: That's a good point that the article doesn't start with the earliest stuff first overall, though the old structure didn't either — the first paragraph is the same in both versions, about the earliest African trans/third-gender categories, with both versions not getting to the oldest(?) Assyria/Sumer stuff until later. And each geographic section does now generally start with the oldest stuff in that area, so people get a sense of how far back stuff goes in each area.<br/>My main concern with adding another section would be duplicating content which is already a summary of all the more specific articles it's present in ("LGBT rights in Peru", "History of transgender people in the United States", etc), and which is in turn already summarized here in the lead. But maybe the lead is the answer—we could rewrite the lead (which I intend to expand to summarize the modern stuff soon, unless someone else wants to beat me to it) to be the chronological summary, starting with the furthest-back-anywhere stuff. ] (]) 18:28, 7 June 2019 (UTC) |
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::: Things are coming along. A few big things are still missing from the body, but the lead now summarizes most of what's there, and in a mostly chronological way. If/when the remaining lacunae in the body are filled, I think I may ''try'' sandboxing a chronological-ish re-ordering of it, to see if I or anyone else can think of a way to make that work, and then see whether it looks better or worse than the current layout. At the moment I am trying to cut out unnecessary details, so the article doesn't become too big. ] (]) 03:47, 10 June 2019 (UTC) |
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== Todo: sections that need work == |
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I intend to work on these issues, but am listing them here in case I don't have time to. |
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{{hat|Old todo list}} |
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*Africa: add other countries' actions, in their own sections or (if that would result in many short sections) in the 'general' section. |
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*Canada: rework, is currently structured like a bulleted timeline without the bullets, unlike other sections which are prose. |
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*US: some more could be added on recent history (organizations, figures, and government actions). |
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*South America: probably there is content on early indigenous peoples to be added/summarized. |
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*China: the "trans people are new here, having only been invented in the 90s" bit ... suggests one should look for resources on earlier historical examples. |
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*India: more should be added, both on hijras and other issues e.g. laws, judicial rulings, etc. |
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*Indonesia: needs further expansion. |
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*Iran: needs expansion, and to note e.g. that the government funding surgeries is not entirely benevolent but e.g. gay people may be forced into surgeries (as in South Africa). |
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*Israel: may need expansion, as what it currently covers seems less significant (and could be condensed) relative to e.g. laws or judicial rulings. |
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*Japan: has some good time depth but could perhaps be expanded. |
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*Philippines: needs wordsmithing as well as expansion. |
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*Thailand: could use some work, to add relevant court rulings and remove anything that's just about lesbians. |
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*Balkans: needs modern stuff e.g. Helena Vukovic (the major, not the athlete) |
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*'''France and UK and Russia and Spain:''' expand with modern history. |
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*'''Lead:''' finish summarizing body (still missing some modern US/Europe stuff); condense; possibly reorder chronologically per previous section. |
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{{hab}} |
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] (]) 07:39, 8 June 2019 (UTC) |
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: Just a general shout-out to the great job ] is doing on the article. I've particularly noticed the much needed, expanded lead, as well as additional expanded sections in the body. On the to-do list: France was once included, as in ], which had information on the ] and ]. Barbin was removed ], and Eon ]. (The same editor removed ] ], but it's since been restored.) I added the content back into the section on France, and tagged them {{tl|cn}} (citations available at the source articles). ] (]) 00:57, 11 June 2019 (UTC) |
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::Thanks, for the shout-out and the restoration of the French content! :) ] (]) 00:31, 17 June 2019 (UTC) |
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Updated to-do list: |
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* Overall: |
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** evaluate and, if low-quality, replace sources copied from other articles (e.g., "Gender Dynamix"?), here and in the other articles. |
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** possibly change from countries-as-L3s to e.g. regions more often (this is already done with e.g. the Balkans)? downside: laws may vary very much from nation to nation (but this could be handled by subsections for nations within smaller-than-continents geo units). maybe a bad idea. |
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* Africa: |
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** add other countries' history (in ===General=== if there'd otherwise be too many short sections) |
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** <s>add West African general/early history?</s> |
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** some lower-quality books say Phoenicans in North Africa had third-gender priests; do high-quality ones? |
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** <s>were there trans male roles?</s> |
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** are there any pictures to add? |
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* North America: |
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** are there records of trans people in Canada in the 1700s, 1800s, 1900s, as there are in the US? |
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** condense/trim less-important Canadian stuff further? (this is an overview article; compare other sections) |
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** add modern Mexican history. |
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** <s>add Canadian and/or Mexican pictures?</s> |
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* South America: |
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** add or expand (and move out of national subsections, to top?) pre- and colonial era history. |
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** as with Canada, look for examples from between the colonial period and now, such as existed in the US. |
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** pictures? |
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* Asia: many countries (China, Indonesia, Israel) need sentences on the state of modern laws; others (e.g. Japan, Thailand) are decent but could realistically reach US/Canada-section levels with further work! :) |
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** India: still need to add more post-ancient history, e.g. <s>British hostility to hijras,</s> modern-era laws. |
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** Iran: add pre-modern history<s>, modern transphobia, government forcing gay people into SRS</s>. |
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** Philippines: many Philippine articles on LGBT topics are poor, a result of persistent POV and/or poorly-sourced edits; this section needs checking, sourcing, and then expanding, etc. |
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** '''add: Korea, Mongols + Mongolia, Pakistan, Palestine (today + pre-1900s), Vietnam.''' |
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* Australasia and Oceania: needs expansion of pre-modern history as well as modern laws. |
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* Europe: |
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** Balkans: needs more countries' modern stuff. |
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** '''France, UK, Russia, Spain''': needs modern laws, etc (UK to mention media TERFs?). |
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** '''Scandinavia''': add (modern sterilization laws/repeals, etc) |
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** mention other countries, e.g. Greece, Poland (incl. communist-era SRS), at least in a "General" section |
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* <small>Antarctica: is there any serious content to add? (, ? Probably not...)</small> |
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* Lead: is probably an adequate summary of the article now, but will need to be kept up with changes above! |
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] (]) 00:31, 17 June 2019 (UTC) |
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::<small>Struck out one more bit that's been done. ] (]) 23:43, 22 November 2019 (UTC)</small> |
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:: Just more approval for what you are doing; it isn’t passing unnoticed. The "Earliest history" subsections at the top of some of the major geo sections is a great way to handle this. (Although I’d go for "early" or "ancient"—if applicable—rather than a superlative,but that’s just a quibble.) Good job; thanks for your efforts. ] (]) 23:17, 17 June 2019 (UTC) |
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:::Thanks! And that's a good suggestion; I've changed 'Earliest' to 'Early', except in Europe where 'Earliest history' contrasts with a following same-level 'Ancient' history section. Incidentally, I wonder if Africa should be reorganized <small>]</small>. Maybe: Ancient Egypt, Arab Africa (including the bits on 10th to 18th century Egypt), and then the regions of Black Africa: East (including the non-Arab Nuba peoples who are currently kumped with Arabs in North Africa?), Central, West, and South. {{pb}}(If I could find ''reliable'' sources on a Phoenician/Carthaginian third gender I would add a section for it, but I haven't yet. Another thing I found claims of, including on some university webpages, but didn't find in sources directly about Madagascar or that I would consider reliable, is that the Sakalava or Tanala of Madagascar had a third gender for 'boys raised as girls'. I will try to check German and French language sources later.) ] (]) 17:33, 21 June 2019 (UTC) |
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*A recent (poor) edit to ] prompted me to look into the concept ]; I see some discussion of either the dancers or the deities of the same name as trans-gender figures, but would need to look into it further to determine if it's appropriate to add anything here or to that article. ] (]) 22:41, 23 May 2020 (UTC) |
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*On a ], the first paragraph of the lead apart from the first sentence (i.e. the part from "As this history..." to "...and 'gender role'") is not "embodied"/reflected in the body; possibly the first body section should be something like "Scope and considerations" with a paragraph covering that ground; alternatively, perhaps slightly more content could be added, either to the relevant chronological places or to a section like "Development as a discipline", covering ''that'' ground. Something to mull over. ] (]) 22:41, 23 May 2020 (UTC) |
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== In literature == |
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Was thinking of adding a section '''In literature'''. Ovid has something in Metamorphoses; so does Montaigne. I hate "in pop culture" ] sections, so I would strive to avoid that (no trans spongebob characters or Star Trek aliens, please) but serious cases like these, should be considered. ] (]) 00:03, 15 June 2019 (UTC) |
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:I do think the ''most'' important pieces of literature (like the earliest or most influential records or 'explanations' or the like) warrant mention here, and a few are already mentioned—but they're in their chronological and geographic* places. I'm not immediately able to envision what advantages a section would offer over making an article specifically on the topic (]? ]?) or sorting things into the existing structure, but that's arguably a sign you should go ahead and add (or mock up) what you're envisioning and then we could look at it and discuss whether it'd be best in that form, dispersed into the rest of the article, or split off into its own article. (This article ''is'' quite large.) (*A structure which I acknowledge is already bumping into some issues, like where to mention a pan-national and indeed somewhat pre-national religion's records and views...and I admit I can see how e.g. a Roman work with influence throughout Europe long after Rome's fall would present some of the same issues.) ] (]) 02:37, 15 June 2019 (UTC) |
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::Which transnational entries were you thinking of, specifically? If several are in different countries but one localized area, we could add section headers, eg Southwest Africa, or South Asia (hijra), or whatever made sense, and place the transnational items there (possibly under subheading “Regional”), followed by the country name section headers within the transnational region. ] (]) 23:24, 17 June 2019 (UTC) |
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:::Two connected things I ran into were third-gender categories mentioned in early "Indian" and then Buddhist texts and practices (from India but also elsewhere) which have connections with hijras in various Indian subcontinent nations and kathoeys in Thailand <small>(and among the Khmer at some points in history?)</small>. This is currently sort-of handled via an early-history "Buddhist Asia" section and later "Indian subcontinent" and (elsewhere) "Thailand" sections, with cross-links and a bit of repetition between them. {{pb}}Also tricky is the Byzantine Empire with history in Europe, Asia, and Africa. At the moment, I put it near the Ancient Rome section (in Europe) and left explicit links to there in the 'Asia' and 'Africa' sections. {{pb}}Modern Turkey and Egypt present a similar issue but in those cases I think it's fine to just sort all of Turkey into Asia and all of Egypt into Africa even if we ever have any e.g. Sinai-specific content. What to do about Ottoman content is another question (currently, the only explicitly Ottoman content was Egypt-specific so it's sorted with other Egyptian content, but there may be Asian and European content and indeed the sworn virgins have some connections to the Ottomans). Russia is also a ]: separating the "Indigenous peoples of the Far East" into a subsection is the obvious solution to half the problem, but the other half is what to call the ''other'' section / content, which isn't ''exactly'' about "European (portions of) Russia" but more "European(-led/oriented) Russia". ] (]) 19:16, 21 June 2019 (UTC) |
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== Peripheral things, if this page gets too large == |
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If, as this page continues to be expanded, it is felt that it is too large, here are the first line of things I'd suggest could be moved to other articles because they're less vital / more peripheral to this topic. (Many but not all of these are things I've added...) |
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* eunuchs (move to ] or other more specific articles), starting with Ottoman and Egyptian eunuchs (but preserving a link somewhere on this page to ]) |
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* Romans' negative views of crossdressing (move to ]?) |
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* Lafitau quotes or whole paragraph (which are redundant to earlier and later statements that such roles existed) |
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* quotes from various courts about ''why'' they ruled |
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* Bata the Egyptian (move to ]), other Ancient Egyptian content |
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* La Fargue sentence (move to Canada-specific article like the next item below) |
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* less-important modern-era people, e.g. first trans gondolier in Venice or first trans hockey player, as long as the section has other modern-era content (in these cases: MPs and laws) (move to "LGBT (rights|history) in " pages) |
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And descriptions of other specific individuals could be condensed. (Alternatively, but IMO much less optimally, the page could be split by continent: Americas, Europe, Asia, Africa. However, the byte size of the prose itself is only ~57k; most of the bytes are references; so I would be averse to splitting it.) ] (]) 03:27, 23 June 2019 (UTC) |
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== ] == |
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I was in the middle of editing the Canada section, to add something like the following:<blockquote>In the early 1800s, reports by a surveyor and Northwest Passage explorers of a "Manlike Woman" were circulated. They were about a person who lived at different times as a woman married to a man, and as a warrior who used bow and arrow in combat, and who died of a battle wound.</blockquote> until I realized the atrocious state of referencing at the article, and decided it wasn't sufficiently supported. If this can be confirmed, it would make a good addition to this article. Note that the ] straddle the CA-US border in the west. ] (]) 00:27, 10 July 2019 (UTC) |
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: There's been no change to that article's sourcing since then. I may try to place feedback requests at some Project pages, to see if we can get that article in better shape, with a view to adding a sentence or two here about it. ] (]) 01:11, 23 May 2020 (UTC) |
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* <small>'''Listed''' at: ], ], ]. ] (]) 04:47, 23 May 2020 (UTC)</small> |
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*: <small>Just on a procedural(?) level, would not the more logical place to discuss improving the article ] be ]? ] (]) 20:01, 23 May 2020 (UTC)</small> |
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== Transgender people in Turkey == |
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I noticed that Turkey wasn't included while there's a transgender singer from 1970s and some other transgender celebrities ] (]) 23:02, 15 June 2021 (UTC) |
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== Reactionary laws in Central/Eastern Europe == |
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Hungary just passed a ], and regions of Poland have had so-called, "]s" for some time. The Hungarian law may be ] to cover here now, but we should keep an eye on it. While on that region, I notice we don't have much of anything on Central/Eastern Europe (I mean, former Warsaw Pact countries). The series of "LGBT rights in <''country''>" articles could be checked to see if there's anything going on that rises to the level of importance to be included here. |
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<div style="width:92%;margin-left:2em">{{Europe topic |prefix=LGBT rights in |countries_only=yes |no_other_entities=yes |state=collapsed|AB= |NKR= |PMR= |SO= |TRNC= |XK= |VA= |SM= |MC= |LI= |AD=}}</div> |
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If we can figure out what to call it, maybe we can have a region subsection under #Europe, rather than individual country subsections, at least for starters. Pinging {{u|-sche}} for comments. ] (]) 19:59, 18 June 2021 (UTC) |
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== The lead sentence has issues == |
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The lead sentence says this |
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{{font color | green |Transgender history, in the broadest sense, includes examples of gender variance and gender nonconformity in cultures worldwide since ancient times.}} |
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I haven't this article but transgender people are individuals who a gender identity different from there assigned sex. |
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So I don't understand why gender nonconforming is mentioned in the lead.] (]) 01:05, 19 June 2021 (UTC) |
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: Because of the sweep of history, and how things evolve. Ever hear of using ] as money? A history of world banking, might start with exchanging cowrie shells, or evaporated sea salt. A history of transgender people in the world, starts with the earliest known antecedents. Make sense now? In that sense, I think the lead sentence is just fine. ] (]) 06:34, 19 June 2021 (UTC) |
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::I guess that makes sense, but the article doesn’t explain why gender nonconformity is important to transgender history. Like I tried scrolling through as much of the sources and the articles and it doesn’t explain why gender nonconformity is important to the history of transgender people. |
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::But nonetheless this article mentions stuff that is unrelated to the topic of transgender history, like the section on Canada says this. |
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::{{font color | green | During the colonial period a European system of beliefs and values was imposed on the First Nations and enforced among the colonists. In 1738, the arrival of Esther Brandeau, a Jewish girl disguised as a boy using the male pseudonym Jacques La Fargue, caused a minor scandal in Quebec City.}} |
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::Like in what way is a woman pretending to be a boy has to do with transgender history? I even checked the source cited for that sentence it doesn’t mention anything about transgender or LGBT. |
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::This is also the case with Germany |
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::{{font color | green | Around 98 CE, at a time galli priests existed in Rome, Tacitus wrote that the priest of the Germanic Nahanarvali tribe also wore women's clothes.}} |
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::Also I noticed the article mentions cases of intersex people. Sure some of the sources do mention that these cases have something to do with transgender people but in other cases they don’t. |
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::] (]) 06:59, 19 June 2021 (UTC) |
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::Like come on an average doesn’t know anything about transgender history. Don’t assume a reader is gonna instantly expect gender nonconformity and transgenderism have a connection. |
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::A brief explanation for there connection would be nice.] (]) 07:04, 19 June 2021 (UTC) |
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:::It seems worthwhile to look for how sources define this topic and go from there. Additionally, anything in the body whose source does not mention being transgender, specifically, should be removed as ]. Gender nonconformity is not ''necessarily'' transgender related. Through history there were reasons for people to cross-dress or present as the opposite gender (for lack of better terms) that were unrelated to gender identity as understood today. Any claim such cases are related has to be made by reliable sources, not Wikipedians. <span style="font-family:Palatino">]</span> <sup>]</sup> 23:53, 19 June 2021 (UTC) |
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:Digging through the edit history, I found where this wording was introduced: , which changed the lead from "{{tq|'''Transgender history''' begins with transgender (in the broad sense, including ] and ]) people }}" to the current "{{tq|'''Transgender history''', in the broadest sense, includes examples of ] and gender nonconformity in ancient cultures }}". I am inclined to think the previous wording was more on-topic, and more in line with RS, which (as noted and cited in the main ] article) tend to define ''transgender'', even "in the broadest sense", in terms of non-cisgender and non-binary / third-gender people (sometimes, when defining it ''very'' broadly indeed, some RS even include crossdressers) but not just any "] and gender nonconformity". I would not object to simply restoring the original wording. ] (]) 19:41, 18 July 2021 (UTC) |
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:I have changed it back, although further improvement may be possible. <span style="font-family:Palatino">]</span> <sup>]</sup> 02:20, 19 July 2021 (UTC) |
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== 'Main' vs. 'Further' links in sections == |
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In my opinion, sections with ] top-of-section links should only use the {{tl|Main}} template when the target article is a history topic, such as in sections ], ], ], or ]. OTOH, if the section top link is to a non-history topic, as in sections ], ], or ] then they should use {{tl|Further}} or {{tl|See also}} instead. |
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To the extent that redirects exist with 'history' in the name I'd be okay with using a {{tl|Main}} link in that case, even if the target article was currently not a 'history' article, but possibly a section-redirect to one of the 'LGBT rights in <country>' articles, because it could become a 'history' article in the future. (<span class="plainlinks"></span> afaik; but could apply to redirects such as ], ], and so on.) ], any thoughts on this? ] (]) 02:19, 22 September 2021 (UTC) |
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*<small>'''Listed at:''' ]. ] (]) 02:28, 22 September 2021 (UTC)</small> |
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:I agree fundamentally with your view on the distinction, although I would strongly prefer {{tl|see also}} to {{tl|further}} in most cases here. My own use of {{tl|Main}} is always restricted to cases where the section's explicit or implicit topic is exactly the target of the {{tl|main}} link. <span style="font-family:Avenir, Tenorite, Verdana, sans-serif">— <span style="border-radius:0.25em;padding:1px 4px 0;background:#faededAF">]</span> (])</span> 06:39, 2 October 2021 (UTC) |
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: I also support your recommendation for {{tl|Main}}. I don't have an informed opinion on see also vs. further. ] (]) 06:44, 2 October 2021 (UTC) |
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== Meaning? David Reimer? == |
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"In 1970, Dianna Boileau underwent sex reassignment surgery at Toronto General Hospital, becoming possibly the first in Canada to do so" |
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Does this reference to actual surgery in Canada or being the first Canadian? Because David Reimer had that surgery (technically) but at Hopkins in 1967. Also, I'm pretty sure they operated on boys with micropenises in Canada before 1970 no? ] (]) 13:44, 26 January 2022 (UTC) |
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==Wiki Education assignment: The Middle Ages=={{dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment | course = Misplaced Pages:Wiki_Ed/Illinois_State_University/The_Middle_Ages_(Spring) | assignments = ] | reviewers = ] | start_date = 2022-01-12 | end_date = 2022-05-13 }} |
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== The lead seems logic-less == |
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''"Transgender people (including non-binary and third gender individuals) have existed in cultures worldwide since ancient times. The modern terms and meanings of "transgender", "gender", "gender identity", and "gender role" only emerged in the 1950s and 1960s. As a result, opinions of how to categorize historical accounts of gender-variant people and identities vary."'' |
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The article reads {{tq|In ancient ], transgender ] took part in public processions, singing, dancing, wearing costumes and sometimes women's clothes, and carrying feminine symbols, and even at times performing the act of giving ].}} |
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Does anyone else see the problem here? There is dissent on how to categorize gender-variant personal identities and social roles throughout history. This article includes historical gender-variant identities and social roles, and counts them (in the lead's first sentence) as part of transgender history. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><span class="autosigned" style="font-size:85%;">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 16:05, 18 May 2022 (UTC)</span> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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An IP removed the birth part, which is uncited, and @] restored it. Why? It seems like vandalism. ꧁]꧂ 13:52, 11 June 2024 (UTC) |
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:Ahhh, actually i thought there was a vandalism, that's why i restored the version. Sorry for inconvenience. this is genuine mistake! ] (]) 13:56, 11 June 2024 (UTC) |
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:How about changing the beginning to {{tqd|"<ins>People with gender-variant identities</ins> have existed in cultures worldwide since ancient times. The modern terms and meanings of "transgender", "gender", "gender identity", and "gender role" only emerged in the 1950s and 1960s. As a result, <ins>opinions vary on how to categorize historical accounts of such people and identities</ins>."}}? ] (] / ]) 16:23, 18 May 2022 (UTC) |
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::That sounds like an improvement to me. ] (]) 16:26, 18 May 2022 (UTC) |
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::That's alright! I'll rewrite it pending input from Mathglot. ꧁]꧂ 13:58, 11 June 2024 (UTC) |
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:::Thank you @], cheers and happy editing! ] (]) 13:59, 11 June 2024 (UTC) |
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:::I have implemented the second change, but I disagree with changing the first sentence. The article is still about transgender folks, and sources describe it as transgender history. The third sentence is to express that there is scholarly disagreement, but the weight of sources cover transgender, not gender variant, history. ] <sup>]</sup>] 18:26, 18 May 2022 (UTC) |
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:::Actually, I've removed it, since I can't find any source. But if anyone can produce one, please add the content! ꧁]꧂ 14:01, 11 June 2024 (UTC) |
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::::Thanks for implementing part of Fireandfeathers' suggestion; whoever they are I like their style! {{pb}}If it's a matter involved in scholarly disagreement, can we state one of the positions in wiki-voice? {{small|(I support the radical queering of history, but I'm trying to color inside the lines while I have my Wiki-hat on)}}. ] (] / ]) 18:33, 18 May 2022 (UTC) |
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:@] It looks like you wrote this originally, before an IP in 2017 changed "pretending to give birth" to "performing the act of giving birth". Is this accurate? If so, do you have a source to cite (and from which we can rewrite this prose so it doesn't suggest that ancient Assyrian transgender sex workers gave birth)? ꧁]꧂ 13:56, 11 June 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::@] Hehe sorry I was typing your name from memory :P My concern is that we're giving undue weight to this disagreement. In fact, its hardly discussed in the article at present. Nor do I think the actual weight of the sources bear that argument out. I've been meaning to expand this article. I'll try to work on the historiography section some today and see where the sources lead me, and hopefully then we can have some more info to make a decision on :) ] <sup>]</sup>] 18:39, 18 May 2022 (UTC) |
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::I accept my mistake! there was a genuine mistake. ] (]) 13:58, 11 June 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::Thanks cap'n. I don't think the status quo language is problematic enough that it requires immediate fixing. Happy to watch some ] happen and I'll chip in where I can. ] (] / ]) 18:42, 18 May 2022 (UTC) |
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:::That's okay, now I'm just asking the apparent original author of that section if they know the source from which they got that information. ꧁]꧂ 14:03, 11 June 2024 (UTC) |
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The problem with the lead is a symptom of the POV of the whole page. For example treating eunuchs as though their decision to become eunuchs was an expression of their gender identity rather than a necessary sacrifice for advancement in the administrations of certain kingdoms. This page is reading back into history a very modern and western ideology.] (]) 05:45, 17 June 2022 (UTC) |
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The original version of the article was created for the most part by taking portions of text from LGBT history and creating an article structure with headings somewhat mimicking that article where appropriate. For the section on #United States of America, information was mostly summarized and occasionally copied from History of transgender people in the United States. Other than that, short portions were copied or paraphrased from these articles:
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