| Revision as of 16:27, 27 June 2022 editPolitanvm (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users10,120 edits →New section to Scientific Studies (redux): ReplyTag: Reply← Previous edit |
Latest revision as of 15:11, 21 December 2024 edit undoRoxySaunders (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, IP block exemptions3,006 edits Reverted 1 edit by 77.99.27.143 (talk): Misplaced Pages is not a discussion forum. For general knowledge questions, you can consult the WP:REFDESK . See also simple:transgender and wikt:transgender.Tags: Twinkle Undo |
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== Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 14 November 2024 == |
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== the definition of sex and how it relates to the stated definition and use for transgender and transsexual == |
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{{Edit extended-protected|Transgender|answered=yes}} |
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Sex is defined as which gametes an organism produces. In accordance with our stance, it has been established, even on the sex wikipedia page, that there are "no other universal distinctions between male and female"-- only differences in gametes. Sex is based on which gametes you produce, nothing more, nothing less. Unfortunately, there is currently no way to transition from one sex to another. The current trans article states not only that it IS possible, but that transGENDER (transition of GENDER) is the same as this supposedly possible transition of sex, which undoes all the discussion about the difference between sex and gender that has been had over the last several decades. Plainly, you cannot transition from one sex to another- and this Misplaced Pages page should not be spreading misinformation saying that such a thing is possible. Trust me, if it were, I would be on it. |
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I think it might be a good idea to add a source to the sentence that the word transgenderism was once considered acceptable. I found this article when looking it up: "https://juliaserano.medium.com/the-history-of-the-word-transgenderism-55fd9bbf65cc". ] (]) 20:23, 14 November 2024 (UTC) |
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:] '''Not done''': it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a ] and provide a ] if appropriate.<!-- Template:EEp --> ] (]) 21:52, 14 November 2024 (UTC) |
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==Discussion at ]== |
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Moving on from this, the definition of transsexual is NOT somebody who literally transitions from one sex to another because 1. as we established, that is not possible with modern medicine. And 2. If transexuals supposedly do transition to become another sex, then that means both that 1. they aren't that sex innately and that there is some sex to transition to, insinuating that there ARE more physical differences aside from gametes, and 2. that they are "more" of that sex than just transgender people are, which is extremely transmedicalist. Not all women have high estrogen, breasts, hips, etc. Transexuals pursue a physical transition to achieve SECONDARY sex characteristics STEREOTYPICALLY associated with another sex than their own. Saying otherwise would indicate that you think things like hormones, breasts, hips, etc are what make the female sex when we have already gone to great lengths to establish that nothing more than ova gametes define that. |
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] You are invited to join the discussion at ].  Please join the move discussion for a primary redirect to this article currently in progress. ] (]) 23:43, 15 November 2024 (UTC)<!-- ] --> |
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== Transgender & Transsexual == |
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Transsexuals do not transition physically to another sex. I propose we take the claim that they magically can, down. |
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It is impossible to transition to another sex, I propose we take anything down that insinuates that. |
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] (]) 20:36, 18 March 2022 (UTC) User:Nativebun |
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: You have just posted a big wad of what we on Misplaced Pages call ]. Do you have any sources ''on the topic of this article'' that support your ]? If not, we cannot according to ], include it in this article in anyway. |
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: By the way, nothing in the stable version of this article suggests that anyone can change their gamete production (except in the sense of ceasing to produce gametes, I suppose), so all of your commentary on that particular issue suggests a ] on your part. ] (]) 20:41, 18 March 2022 (UTC) |
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::The article states that transsexuals can change sex. The definition of sex refers to which gametes an organism produces, nothin more nothing less. Transsexuals are not able to change which gametes they produce. Your response suggests a failure of reading comprehension on your part regarding my proposal. ] (]) 16:43, 19 March 2022 (UTC) |
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::: When the article refers to {{tq|transgender people who desire medical assistance to transition from one sex to another}} it is not referring to gamete production, which seems obvious to me as a native speaker of English. If you don't understand what "transition" means in this context, you are not competent to edit this article IMO. ] (]) 16:56, 19 March 2022 (UTC) |
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::::You cannot transition from one sex to another. I am literally trans, and what we CAN do is transition to having the secondary sex characteristics of another sex-- that is what we mean by transition, and it is insulting that you think we have to pretend otherwise. If you don't understand that, then IMO you are not competent enough to make edits let alone challenge others on this subject. ] (]) 17:03, 19 March 2022 (UTC) |
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::::: While it may be tempting to edit Misplaced Pages to reflect one's personal experience, this is never a good idea. What matters on Misplaced Pages is not your personal language relating to "sex" vs. "secondary sexual characteristics", but rather the language used in recent, reliable sources -like the ones used in this article. Please also see the article ], and its sources, to see where your edits in article space diverged from what the RS actually say. Nobody says or implies that anyone can stop producing one set of gametes and start producing another, and your repeated assertion to the contrary does point to CIR issues on your part. ] (]) 17:48, 19 March 2022 (UTC) |
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This question is not about people, but about terminology. Please don't flame me. I've read both articles and a goodly chunk of the archives. Maybe I missed it, but I can't find RS that really explains the difference between terms "transsexual" and "transgender" or makes a definite statement that they are the same. I find lots of opinions, but no sourcing. As a follow-on, are there particular researchers who have made a study of how use of the terms has changed over time? ] (]) 21:00, 20 November 2024 (UTC) |
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:Hi Nativebun, thanks for engaging on the talk page. As Newimpartial says, your suggestions read like original research. When making potentially controversial change suggestions, you'll need to show that the current article in some way doesn't follow Misplaced Pages's guidelines. For example: |
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:# Does the article as currently written do original research? In other words, is it adding commentary or ] the cited sources in a way the sources themselves do not? |
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:# Are there ] missing, that would support your edit suggestion? |
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:# Are the current sources inappropriately ] a certain viewpoint. |
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:Without some argument grounded in Misplaced Pages guidelines, your suggestions aren't likely to gain consensus from the community. It may be helpful to search the archives for this Talk page, using the "search archives" box at the top of the page, to make sure you're not repeating arguments that have already been addressed. Best, ] <sup>]</sup> 20:48, 18 March 2022 (UTC) |
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::Hi, thank you for your response! I suppose then that there are reliable sources missing to support the statement that it is possible to change sex, the definition of sex being grounded in which gametes an organism produces. If someone could pull up scholarly medical articles showing that a recent treatment has been devised for humans to be able to change which gametes we produce, and that this is something that all self-identified transsexuals use, then that would be lovely. There are reliable sources missing to support the statement made in the article that anyone who identifies as transsexual is somehow able to accomplish this feat of changing sex that no modern medicine is currently capable of. ] (]) 16:49, 19 March 2022 (UTC) |
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::: The term {{tq|sex}}, like most words in English, carries multiple meanings. In the case of transition it is generally sex hormones and anatomical sex that are altered, according to the reliable sources relevant to the topic of this article. If you have recent, relevant and reliable sources supporting your apparently ] contention that "sex" in all instances means precisely what you want it to mean, I would love to consult those source for myself. ] (]) 17:01, 19 March 2022 (UTC) |
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::::The EXACT same thing can be said to you- if you can provide scholarly articles supporting your apparently original contention that "sex" in all instances means precisely what you want it to mean, I would love to consult those source for myself. ] (]) 17:06, 19 March 2022 (UTC) |
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::::: The relevant sources - for example, those relating to changing one's legal sex - are already cited in the article. ] (]) 17:48, 19 March 2022 (UTC) |
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:::::You can see all of the citations in this article. You haven’t provided any new reliable sources. You haven’t identified any claims in the article that aren’t supported by its inline citation. Without offering something tangible, this discussion isn’t going to go anywhere, and we’re all going to waste our time without making any improvements to the article. So please provide some reliable source, or point out specific claims in the article that aren’t supported by their inline citations. ] <sup>]</sup> 17:50, 19 March 2022 (UTC) |
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:@]: Flame! Haha, just kidding. :) |
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:I want to be snarky and make a comment about clownfish. but I'll just repeat what I said on your user talk page but you didn't reply to: {{blockquote|I suggest starting with ] if you are less familiar with the term. For humans, the current nomenclature is not "biological sex" (e.g., see the AMA memo and ).}} |
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:Are you looking for new sources to add to the article, or sources for your own research? If the latter, I would recommend that you check out the terminology section on this article and see if there are any relevant sources there - I seem to recall finding relevant information to your query a month or two ago when I was checking some sources for this article. If the former, let me know, and perhaps I can help your search. In either case, the sources at the bottom of the article, especially the academic sources (some of the sources in "References" are sorted by type and some are not), may help you in your search. Perhaps you could check out the references in the linked sources themselves. Have a good day! |
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: Your personal views (and mine) don't much matter here. Professional organizations and reliable sources demonstrably use "sex assignment at birth" and define sex assignment as based on not just gamates but also gonads, tubrecals/genitalia, presence of a uterus, hormones, and structures of the 23rd chromosome for humans. ] ] 23:05, 18 March 2022 (UTC) |
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:] (]) | :) | he/him | 22:02, 20 November 2024 (UTC) |
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::Okay if you'd like to include those other areas that's fine, but it doesn't support your position. Transsexuals cannot attain a uterus, new gonads, genitalia, and new chromosomal structures. Perhaps they can cut their bodies to make superficial structures made to appear visibly similar to actual genitalia etc of another sex, but they cannot have a real one- and that is okay. They certainly cannot attain new chromosomal structures. The only thing that they can change is hormones, but science has reached a consensus that due to the great amount of hormonal variance within sexes anyways, changing hormones does not constitute sex change. This is part of the argument supporting no hormone requirements/restrictions for trans women in sports. Transsexuals cannot change sex. People who self-identify as transexuals do not necessarily even try changing what is sometimes called "sex re-assignment surgery", many ie blaire white calls herself transsexual just because she got chest implants and hormones. Unless you are insinuating that breasts of a certain size and certain levels of hormones are necessary for being of the female sex? ] (]) 17:00, 19 March 2022 (UTC) |
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::https://glaad.org/reference/trans-terms |
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:::{{re|Nativebun}} Your personal views on what it means to be transsexual frankly don't matter here and this talk page is ] to share them or argue about breast sizes or Youtube celebs. We go by what ] say. You neeed to find some reliable sources that support your claims and explain how they relate to the reliable sources in the article. Otherwise you are only using this space and article to make a ] about what you view as "]" which is fine to do on Twitter but not Misplaced Pages. ] ] 18:41, 19 March 2022 (UTC) |
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::Scroll down to "Transsexual" |
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:::{{re|Nativebun}} Per Politanvm's comment, find a ] or ]. Using ''sex'' to mean "any sexual trait or characteristic" is a well-established practice. You may personally believe that the term refers strictly to gamete-production, and is therefore unalterable by all medical intervention, but for encyclopediac purposes, that's a ]. That's not what the sentence in ] ("{{xt|The type of gametes produced by an organism defines its sex}}") is saying (and even if it was, ]). |
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::] (]) | :) | he/him | 22:05, 20 November 2024 (UTC) |
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:::Regardless of your good intentions, or (borrowing an empty dogwhistle) "biological reality", defining sex in humans this way has very little purpose, except to deny and exclude the experiences of transsexual people who identify as having changed sexes. It also has troubling implications for people whose bodies produce neither eggs nor spermatazoa. I'd never assume this was your intent, but it's nonetheless a change which cedes a lot of ground to the perennial "gender skeptical" POV warriors who wish to describe trans women in terms like "{{!xt|a male-sexed person who identifies as a woman}}", etc. |
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:::more academic sources, found with google scholar: |
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:::Yes, ] does "reassign sex". No, <span aria-label="trans star">trans∗</span> women do not need to have female-sexed gametes or genitals to be ''female'', and yes, we should compete in women's sports, for reasons which are as self-evident as they are unrelated to the definition of biological sex. The article lede implies nothing to the contary. |
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:::https://quadernsdepsicologia.cat/article/view/v20-n3-aguirre |
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:::Misplaced Pages is beholden to ], and a result, articles do not have the luxury of unpacking every minor epistemological nuance in the distinction between sex and gender. Moreover, ] means it reflects only beliefs held by prominent reliable sources, not its editors. Learn to live with that, and enjoy editing, or perhaps (per EvergreenFir's suggestion) open an account on Twitter or YouTube. <small>Sincerely,</small> ] (] <b>·</b> ]) 23:26, 19 March 2022 (UTC) |
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:::(spanish website but english pdf) |
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::::it's disturbing that you believe this ] (]) 03:23, 27 June 2022 (UTC) |
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:::https://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=ST2XEAAAQBAJ&oi=fnd&pg=PA1&dq=transgender+transsexual+terminology&ots=bO_jhuXH4Y&sig=Ks_R3H1MT8KLWTXce-YqrLaNZZY#v=onepage&q=transgender%20transsexual%20terminology&f=false |
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:::::{{hidden ping|Nativebun}} Believe what? ] ] (] <b>·</b> ]) 04:32, 27 June 2022 (UTC) |
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:::https://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=A1emBgAAQBAJ&oi=fnd&pg=PA173&dq=transgender+transsexual+terminology&ots=qyJWq9B-6F&sig=BJSEGZjO2N6TwInE42rhWHlEFec#v=onepage&q=transgender%20transsexual%20terminology&f=false |
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:Would like to help you with this, Nativebun. But I've lost patients with this general topic, months ago. ] (]) 00:15, 19 March 2022 (UTC) |
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::no worries haha wikipedia is exhausting sometimes, take care ] (]) 17:10, 19 March 2022 (UTC) |
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:::https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-030-29093-1_4 ] (]) | :) | he/him | 22:10, 20 November 2024 (UTC) |
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::::You're right, there doesn't seem to be an exhaustive etymological analysis of the differing word uses, at least based on my cursory search. That's unfortunate. |
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::::] (]) | :) | he/him | 22:11, 20 November 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::Thanks for the sources. At least it's someplace to start. And to answer the early q, it's for personal research but I'd hoped to improve the article when/if I found something that really talked to the terminology. ] (]) 22:24, 20 November 2024 (UTC) |
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== LatAm section == |
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:<s>Just following up here that I agree with Nativebun’s edits, so I have restored the article. ] (]) 04:59, 19 March 2022 (UTC)</s> |
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::There is quite clearly no consensus here for Nativebun's edit. Please self revert. ] (]) 05:07, 19 March 2022 (UTC) |
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:: How odd for an account created in early December to make their first 10 edits today and immediately start continuing this edit war... And their user page makes a fart joke to boot. ] ] 06:09, 19 March 2022 (UTC) |
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::: Note I have just stricken the comment above by {{noping|Entremark}} per ] as that user has been blocked as a sockpuppet. ] (]) 19:02, 19 March 2022 (UTC) |
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:{{re|Nativebun}} Hi NativeBun :) I believe I can help you with your section (Keep in mind, I'm new too, so I can't put it up myself). Yeah, the current into paragraph of the ] Misplaced Pages article should probably be edited for more clarity too. Just as EvergreenFir says, sex can actually be determined not just from gametes, but also gonads, external anatomy, internal anatomy, hormones, and presence/absence of a y chromosome. The ] Misplaced Pages page has a great table explaining it. The current intro paragraphs of the ] Misplaced Pages page also mention chromosomes determining sex after saying gametes do but really it should mention all these Evergreen and I listed as determining sex. I think the statement of "The types of gametes an organism produces defines its sex" as determining sex is probably more used to define the sex of animals, not humans. The gamete-only definition has obvious problems when applied to humans as many people can't produce gametes at all (as others have said). A section here explaining this could be titled "Transgender and Intersex Persons". Here is an example of a paragraph for it, with references: |
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"Transgender people and ] people are separate identities, however they are not mutually exclusive identities. Intersex is a term referring to people born with non-binary ], while transgender people can be born with a body considered to have all-male or all-female sexual characteristics.<ref>Kang et al. |
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https://openbooks.library.umass.edu/introwgss/chapter/gender-and-sex-transgender-and-intersex/</ref><ref>https://www.plannedparenthood.org/learn/gender-identity/sex-gender-identity/whats-intersex</ref> Both groups are often marginalized and face ], but are separate groups, as oftentimes intersex people often identify as male or female, choosing whichever description their bodies most closely fit.<ref>https://isna.org/faq/transgender/</ref> Both transgender and intersex persons may undergo ] to alter their primary or secondary sexual characteristics. Even though a transgender person who is born all-male or all-female and then gets sex reassignment surgery to alter their sexual characteristics would have a similar physical body as an intersex person instead of an all-male or all-female body, the term "intersex" would still not apply to them as they were not born with those nonbinary sexual characteristics.<ref>https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2018/10/its-intersex-awareness-day-here-are-5-myths-we-need-to-shatter/</ref> |
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{{reflist}} ] (]) 19:54, 21 March 2022 (UTC) |
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This phrase "They are framed as something entirely separate from transgender women, who possess the same gender identity of people assigned female at birth" does not make sense, and I wonder that's really what the author even hinted at saying that. I guess it could be reworded. But does this mean they are framed as cis women or trans men? Because "the same gender identity of people assigned female at birth" is not clear. Or did this try to explain what is a trans woman? Then you can just replace female with male, but would this contextualization be necessary? ] (]) 01:50, 5 December 2024 (UTC) |
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== Unclear == |
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:@] hi can you take a look? ] (]) 01:19, 7 December 2024 (UTC) |
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I genuinely don't understand the difference between this (transgender) and ]. Both leads attempt to explain it to the reader, but in my perception both fail. Both mention gender identity and sex assignment, but it's simply not clear what is the difference. --] (]) 19:43, 27 March 2022 (UTC) |
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::"who possess the same gender identity as people assigned female at birth" is the confusing part - how does my reword look? I just removed the confusing clause, as anything else would have required unsourced generalizations ] (]) | :) | he/him | 06:53, 7 December 2024 (UTC) |
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== Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 5 December 2024 == |
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:The two terms mean more or less the same thing but carry different historical baggage. There might be a case for merging the articles. I'm not sure. --] (]) 23:10, 27 March 2022 (UTC) |
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:As described in the lead paragraphs, "transsexual" generally refers to transgender people who have undergone some medical procedure(s) (often surgery) to affirm their gender. Anecdotally, I don't hear "transsexual" used often anymore, and more often hear "trans" as an umbrella term. ] <sup>]</sup> 23:50, 27 March 2022 (UTC) |
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:Hi, I believe the difference is here on the transsexual page: "transsexuals are people who... desire to permanently transition to the sex or gender with which they identify". I.e., transsexuals are defined by wanting to undergo sex reassignment surgery, whereas not all transgender people want to undergo sex reassignment surgery. Also, it says on this page there were already two discussions on merging those two pages, in both 2008 and 2019, both of which ended in them deciding not to merge them. ] (]) 03:07, 28 March 2022 (UTC) |
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::Thanks for the reactions. If this (quoting LightProof1995) "transsexuals are defined by wanting to undergo sex reassignment surgery, whereas not all transgender people want to undergo sex reassignment surgery" would be included in the article, it would make the difference a lot clearer, I think. --] (]) 11:02, 28 March 2022 (UTC) |
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:::It’s basically already in the lead ({{tq| Some transgender people who desire medical assistance to transition from one sex to another identify as transsexual.}}) and subsection ({{tq| Since the 1990s, transsexual has generally been used to refer to the subset of transgender people who desire to transition permanently to the gender with which they identify and who seek medical assistance (for example, sex reassignment surgery) with this.}}). ] <sup>]</sup> 12:57, 28 March 2022 (UTC) |
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:Transsexual is largely deprecated nowadays in favor of trans or transgender, regardless of surgical status. This is a controversial topic in the trans community and I don't have time to find more sources on this right now, but the has this to say on the subject: |
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:{{tq|Transsexual (adj.)}} |
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:{{tq|An older term that originated in the medical and psychological communities. As the gay and lesbian community rejected homosexual and replaced it with gay and lesbian, the transgender community rejected transsexual and replaced it with transgender. Some people within the trans community may still call themselves transsexual. Do not use transsexual to describe a person unless it is a word they use to describe themself. If the subject of your news article uses the word transsexual to describe themself, use it as an adjective: transsexual woman or transsexual man.}} |
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:] (]) 13:44, 28 March 2022 (UTC) |
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{{Edit extended-protected|Transgender|answered=yes}} |
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To be fair, I think anon has a good point. We could do a better job distinguishing the articles. I had to sit and puzzle for a few minutes to make sure I understand our definition of transsexual, which I don't think exactly meshes with common usage. ] <sup>]</sup>] 22:44, 28 March 2022 (UTC) |
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Add this to ]: |
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{{tq| |
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Both terms have evolved over time, but ''transgender'' much more so than ''transsexual'', which has changed less, and also has become somewhat ossified. In addition, ''transgender'', being the more contemporary and more actively evolving term, has a multiplicity of meanings that are not all agreed upon even within the community, one of which is the umbrella term which in its broadest sense sometimes includes cross-dressers or drag, while ''transsexual'' never does. But also echoing IP's call for clarification, which is reasonable, and possibly even a merger. ] (]) 19:39, 20 June 2022 (UTC) |
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The term "trans*" (with an ]) emerged in the 1990s as an ] term used to encompass a wide range of non-cisgender identities. The asterisk serves as a ], indicating the inclusion of various identities beyond just transgender and transsexual, such as ] or ]. The use of the asterisk in "trans*" has been debated, either arguing that it adds unnecessary complexity or that enhances inclusivity by explicitly recognizing non-normative gender identities. |
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}} |
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:I agree that the scope of ] needs to be clarified---a fair bit of its content is just a fork of this article. I see the sentiment of merging the whole thing into {{slink|Transgender#Terminology}}, but I think the term clearly has standalone notability, and redirecting it would provoke ].<br>IMO an appropriate, more terminology-focused scope for ] is to explain (1) the history of the term, (2) its relation to ''transgender'', and (3) its usage in the modern day. Information about medical transitioning belongs at ] as it is not exclusive to people who identify as transsexual. <small>Just a thought.</small> ] ] (] <b>·</b> ]) 20:58, 20 June 2022 (UTC) |
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== Limited mention of detransition == |
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There is only one mention of the topic ] in this article: a single sentence in the section ] that says "Others regret having undergone the procedure and wish to detransition." |
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Given that ] has a fairly lengthy article of its own, and is a topic that is entirely within the scope of ], it seems like it is deserving of a section or subsection in this main article. ] (]) 14:35, 20 June 2022 (UTC) |
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:I think that subsection already exists. ]. It seems about the right size as per ] and links to the main article. ] (]) 16:06, 20 June 2022 (UTC) |
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::My mistake, I see you added it. ] (]) 16:09, 20 June 2022 (UTC) |
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==The Detransition section contains outdated information, and is directly contradicted by the Detransition article.== |
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Currently the Detransition section is directly contradicted by the article Detransition, which contains more recent information on the subject. The number of Transgender individuals who are estimated to detransition has been found to be much smaller than is quoted here. To be precise, it reads, ] As the topic is widely cited in transphobic arguments, this is a matter of grave concern. Because it's consensus that outdated or potentially harmful information should be quickly removed from pages covering sensitive topics, I am going to ] and alter the section to reflect current information and align it with the larger article. ] (]) 18:18, 23 June 2022 (UTC) |
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:I have re-written the section to include up-to-date information and to agree with the larger ] article per discussion, but it probably needs a dash of copyediting, as this was a quick job to correct out of date information. I will be touching up the formatting and grammar shortly, but welcome attention from other editors. ^-^ ] (]) 19:42, 23 June 2022 (UTC) |
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'''Please help protect LGBTQ+ and minority representation on Misplaced Pages.''' <!-- Template:Unsigned --><span class="autosigned" style="font-size:85%;">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 18:24, 23 June 2022 (UTC)</span> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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:Please ], it's a bit early for me to be reading bold text. I agree that this needs to be resolved. Can we slightly expand the current text to cover the more well regarded studies on ] and give the overall clearer picture to stick to ]? |
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:I was thinking something like this: |
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:] refers to the cessation or reversal of a transgender identification or gender transition. Formal studies of detransition have been few in number, of disputed quality, and politically controversial. Estimates of the rate at which detransitioning occurs vary with estimates ranging from less than 1% to as many as 8%. Studies have reported higher rates of desistance among prepubertal children. A 2016 review of 10 prospective follow-up studies from childhood to adolescence found desistance rates ranging from 61% to 98%, with evidence suggesting that they might be less than 85% more generally. Those who undergo ] have very low rates of detransition or regret. A 2005 Dutch study included 162 adults who received sex reassignment surgery, 126 of whom participated in follow-up assessments one to four years after surgery. Two individuals expressed regret at follow-up, only one of whom said that they would not transition again if given the opportunity. The remaining 124 out of 126 (98%) expressed no regrets about transitioning. A 2021 meta-analysis of 27 studies concluded that "there is an extremely low prevalence of regret in transgender patients after ". |
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:The 2015 U.S. Transgender Survey collected responses from individuals who identified as transgender at the time of the survey. 8% of respondents reported having ever detransitioned; 62% of that group were living as a gender other than the one assigned to them at birth at the time of the survey. About 36% reported having detransitioned due to pressure from parent, 33% because it was too difficult, 31% due to discrimination, 29% due to difficulty getting a job, 26% pressure from family members, 18% pressure from a spouse, and 17% due to pressure from an employer. |
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:Thoughts @], @]? |
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:I think trying to mention "censorship around this topic" is not very ], and we should stick to the general statement of, "Formal studies of detransition have been few in number, of disputed quality, and politically controversial." ] (]) 18:33, 23 June 2022 (UTC) |
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::Dear ]: Thank you for your speedy reply, and for providing detailed and accurate content. I actually think that what you've come up with is perfect, and I endorse substituting it for the existing section, pending further copyediting. I apologize for the bold text-- as a Transgender Wikipedian, I was somewhat alarmed to read outdated information on such a sensitive and important article. I deeply appreciate your prompt action and attention to policy. <3 ] (]) 18:41, 23 June 2022 (UTC) |
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:::Please feel free to make the changes along that rough outline as it's the most reasonable presentation for now. ] (]) 18:56, 23 June 2022 (UTC) |
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::::Will do! ] (]) 19:16, 23 June 2022 (UTC) |
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Hey thanks everybody for helping improve the little substub I started, great work. |
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I was surprised to see the reference I cited to Turban et al. and its 13% estimate replaced with the 8% high estimate the USTS report. I dug into both sources and it's funny, because those 8%/13% numbers actually come from the same study, the 2015 USTS survey. I did a a little original research (just for Talk, don't worry) and the 8% figure in the report appears to come from 2,242 answering yes to detransition/27,715 total participants (8.09%), whereas Turban excludes the 10,564 participants who reported never transitioning in the first place, leaving 2,242 of the 17,151 participants who had ever (13.07%). |
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So both figures are from the same set of data, interpreted differently. The Turban study though certainly isn't outdated, though, nor is citing a reliable source's findings "harmful." Turban is a peer-reviewed data analysis in a medical journal, whereas the USTS report is more of a public-consumption survey report from an advocacy organization. I think we adequately acknowledge in the text that survey data is lacking and problematic in many ways, so to me the difference between 8% and 13% is almost moot. Respectfully, however, I'm going to restore the Turban study to the article because it seems to be one of the best, most recent, and most authoritative sources available. Totally support changing the article if other, equally rigorous sources significantly contradict. |
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I agree with ], we should probably try to harmonize this subsection with ] and speak with the same voice on both pages. I also like what ] said about ], I think we should keep the section here to 1-2 paragraphs and expand more on specifics in the main article. ] (]) 05:44, 25 June 2022 (UTC) |
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:I made a bunch of edits aimed at clarifying some data discussed above and boosting readability and organization. The middle paragraph could use some ref tags to direct the reader to the sources. ] (]) 06:24, 25 June 2022 (UTC) |
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:Hey there ], thank you so much for sorting out the sources! I totally agree that it's important to represent the numbers consistently throughout the encyclopedia. And thank you as well for tidying it up-- it's much more readable now!! |
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:P.S. I think I interpreted the higher figure as 'old' because there was an additional citation from ~2010, and I saw that the 8% figure came from a recent article-- feels sort of silly now, considering that they both originated from the same publication.. |
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:P.P.S. I'm going to scout around a bit and see if I can find a few more current publications to reference! :)) ] (]) 18:31, 26 June 2022 (UTC) |
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::I think it might be best to copy content and sources from the main Detransition article as they currently are, and then have a discussion on adding additional sources to that article on its ] as that is the article where those citations would be most relevant. The content here should be no more than a ] of the content there. ] (]) 20:12, 26 June 2022 (UTC) |
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::: Further on the "copy content and sources" approach, is to simply excerpt the material for starters. Here is what two lines of wikicode would look like in the {{slink|{{ARTICLEPAGENAME}}|Detransition|nopage=y}} section in this article: |
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{{cot|indent=4.8em|bg=darkseagreen|Click show to view proposed "]ed" Detransition section}} |
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{{fake header|level=3|Detransition}} |
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{{excerpt|detransition}} |
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{{cot|bg=cornsilk|<small>(references shown here would appear with the rest of the citations at the bottom of the article)</small>}} |
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{{Reflist-talk}} |
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{{cob}} |
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{{cob}} |
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::: This definitely solves the outdated issue, as well as divergence (present and future) and may be a good enough solution. ] (]) 21:46, 26 June 2022 (UTC) |
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== New section to Scientific Studies (redux) == |
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Sources to use (since they are many, only use the most reliable and highly reputable ones): |
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:''<small>This section is a follow-up to ] on the topic.</small>'' |
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#{{cite web |last=Steinmetz |first=Katy |date=2018-04-03 |title=The OED Just Added the Word 'Trans*.' Here's What It Means |url=https://time.com/5211799/what-does-trans-asterisk-star-mean-dictionary/ |access-date=2024-12-05 |website=TIME |language=en}} |
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#{{cite web |title=Why We Used Trans* and Why We Don't Anymore - |url=https://transstudent.org/issues/asterisk/ |access-date=2024-12-05 |website=transstudent.org |language=en-US}} |
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#{{cite web |title=Why do you include an asterisk in Trans*? » The Safe Zone Project |url=https://thesafezoneproject.com/faq/why-do-you-include-an-asterisk-in-trans/ |access-date=2024-12-05 |website=The Safe Zone Project |language=en-US}} |
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#{{cite web |last=Middleton |first=Josh |date=2014-07-16 |title=QUEERSTIONS: What Does it Mean When There is an Asterisk After the Word "Trans?" |url=https://www.phillymag.com/news/2014/07/16/queerstions-mean-asterisk-word-trans/ |access-date=2024-12-05 |website=Philadelphia Magazine |language=en-US}} |
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#{{cite web |title=What does the asterisk in “trans*” stand for? - ❤ It's Pronounced Metrosexual |url=https://www.itspronouncedmetrosexual.com/2012/05/what-does-the-asterisk-in-trans-stand-for/ |access-date=2024-12-05 |website=It's Pronounced Metrosexual |language=en-us}} |
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#{{cite web |last=Levenson |first=Claire |date=2018-10-15 |title=Transition des jeunes trans*, quand science et militants divergent |url=https://www.slate.fr/story/167366/sciences-recherche-etudes-jeunes-trans-militantisme |access-date=2024-12-05 |website=Slate.fr |language=fr-FR}} |
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#{{cite journal |last=Prieur |first=Cha |date=2019-12-16 |title=Les violences envers les personnes trans* à l'université. Des conséquences sur la santé mentale aux pistes pour s’en sortir |url=https://journals.openedition.org/gss/5726 |journal=Genre, sexualité & société |language=fr |issue=22 |doi=10.4000/gss.5726 |issn=2104-3736}} |
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#{{cite journal |last=Delage |first=Pauline |last2=Lieber |first2=Marylène |last3=Chetcuti-Osorovitz |first3=Natacha |date=2019-07-18 |title=Lutter contre les violences de genre. Des mouvements féministes à leur institutionnalisation:Introduction |url=https://shs.cairn.info/revue-cahiers-du-genre-2019-1-page-5?lang=fr |journal=Cahiers du Genre |language=fr |volume=66 |issue=1 |pages=5–16 |doi=10.3917/cdge.066.0005 |issn=1298-6046}} |
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#{{cite journal |last=Iazzetti |first=Brume Dezembro |date=2022-01-01 |title=Políticas institucionais voltadas à população trans* no ensino superior brasileiro e alguns de seus limites e desafios |url=https://www.academia.edu/95784280/Pol%C3%ADticas_institucionais_voltadas_%C3%A0_popula%C3%A7%C3%A3o_trans_no_ensino_superior_brasileiro_e_alguns_de_seus_limites_e_desafios |journal=Cultura, Política, Sexualidade e Gênero na América Latina}} |
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#{{cite journal |last=Guerrero McManus |first=Siobhan |date=2024 |title=Los estudios trans en México |url=https://www.scielo.org.mx/scielo.php?pid=S2448-57052024000100011&script=sci_arttext |journal=Inter disciplina |language=es |volume=12 |issue=32 |pages=11–24 |doi=10.22201/ceiich.24485705e.2024.32.86915 |issn=2448-5705}} |
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#{{cite book |last=Radi |first=Blas |url=https://ri.conicet.gov.ar/handle/11336/143541?show=full |title=Epistemología del asterisco: una introducción sinuosa a la epistemología trans |date=2020 |publisher=Universidad Nacional de Rosario |isbn=978-987-702-385-5}} |
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#JONES, Nash. Bridging the gap-trans*: What does the asterisk mean and why is it used. '''PDX Q Center''', 2013. |
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#Garvin, P. (2019). What’s the asterisk in “trans*” mean and why do some find it offensive?”. ''The LGBTQ+ Experiment'', ''18''. |
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#{{cite journal |last=Lewis |first=Nancy M. |date=2019-01-01 |title=Open to Possibilities: Gender Variability and the Importance of the Asterisk. |url=https://go.gale.com/ps/i.do?id=GALE%7CA611260115&sid=googleScholar&v=2.1&it=r&linkaccess=abs&issn=25760750&p=AONE&sw=w&userGroupName=anon%7Eecb3b175&aty=open-web-entry |journal=Resources for Gender and Women's Studies: A Feminist Review |language=English |volume=40 |issue=1 |pages=7–8}} |
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#{{cite journal |last=Tompkins |first=Avery |date=2014-05-01 |title=Asterisk |url=https://read.dukeupress.edu/tsq/article/1/1-2/26/91872/Asterisk |journal=TSQ: Transgender Studies Quarterly |volume=1 |issue=1-2 |pages=26–27 |doi=10.1215/23289252-2399497 |issn=2328-9252}} ] (]) 02:17, 5 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:Hey @], |
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Hey Politanvm, I think you are getting primary sources and "no riginal research" confused. This paper is not original research. I had nothing to do with the paper. I am not affiliated with the Univerisyt of Virignia and I don't know anyone who worked on the paper. Misplaced Pages says both primary and seconadry sources are good, but primary sources should be used if they came directly from the sources they cite. This paper cites many, many sources therefore making it both a secondary source that says reincarnation is real (as it cites many papers saying so) but also a primary source saying children with gender dyshporia tend to have past-life memories of the opposite sex. I am probably going to make a section on the "Reincarnation" page titled "Reincarnation and Gender Dysphoria" as I'm pretty sure this idea isn't new in places like India where they have believed in reincarnation for thousands of years and have the third gender Hijra. ] (]) 07:41, 27 June 2022 (UTC) |
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:Could you choose some of the best sources and add them as inline citations? |
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: <small>'''Note:''' Restoring LightProof's comment above, originally removed in ]. <small>] (]) 16:21, 27 June 2022 (UTC)</small></small> |
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:If you don't get to it, I can, but you may be more familiar with the source material. |
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::{{small|Sorry, I didn't notice the extra reply! Thanks for restoring, Mathglot. ] <sup>]</sup> 16:27, 27 June 2022 (UTC)}} |
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:Thanks! |
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:] (]) | :) | he/him | 05:05, 5 December 2024 (UTC) |
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::@] I think 1, 11, 15, and 14 are the best sources and should be there. I guess that's a reasonable number and they cover what the sentences are saying. ] (]) 05:15, 5 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:::I could not read number 11 (foreign language) or 14 (limited access), but after changing the paragraph headings, etc. for more logical flow () and adding bullets to the relevant paragraph (), I made your edit, with the following modifications: |
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:::-converted quotation marks to italics |
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:::-added clause about the transgender umbrella after agender to clarify how trans* includes other identities under the transgender umbrella |
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:::-clarified summary of argument over use of the term |
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:::-I read the sources and added them as ] where I though they fit best. |
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:::-serves as -> represents, because I think that wildcard has a specific meaning (could be wrong) in computer searches, as referenced by source number 15 |
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:::If you disagree with any of my choices, or want to add more information/make more changes to the article, please feel free to continue recommending them here! This was a great recommendation! |
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::::P.S., in the future, you can add inline citations by surrounding your citation template with ref tags like this <nowiki> <ref>{{cite web}}</ref>, </nowiki> but that may have been too much work on a talk page. However, regardless, if you want to recommend any future changes, I would ask that you just put which sources you are referencing, like this: |
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:::::"] is the greatest" |
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::::::: The truest book |
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:::just so it is known which sources you want to use. |
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:::Again, thanks! Have a good day. |
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:::] (]) | :) | he/him | 05:43, 5 December 2024 (UTC) |
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::::Thanks for that all. Yup, that's perfect cause I have problems sometimes with syntax or grammar. And here's an open PDF for 11: https://notablesdelaciencia.conicet.gov.ar/bitstream/handle/11336/143541/CONICET_Digital_Nro.632f17dd-d63f-4e3e-89dc-46a7306a31c9_A.pdf?sequence=2&isAllowed=y ] (]) 05:46, 5 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::Thanks also to @] for removing the quotation marks; I neglected to do that. |
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:::::] (]) | :) | he/him | 22:44, 5 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:{{already done}}<!-- Template:EEp --> ] completed the request ] (]) 12:23, 8 December 2024 (UTC) |
This question is not about people, but about terminology. Please don't flame me. I've read both articles and a goodly chunk of the archives. Maybe I missed it, but I can't find RS that really explains the difference between terms "transsexual" and "transgender" or makes a definite statement that they are the same. I find lots of opinions, but no sourcing. As a follow-on, are there particular researchers who have made a study of how use of the terms has changed over time? Bitten Peach (talk) 21:00, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
This phrase "They are framed as something entirely separate from transgender women, who possess the same gender identity of people assigned female at birth" does not make sense, and I wonder that's really what the author even hinted at saying that. I guess it could be reworded. But does this mean they are framed as cis women or trans men? Because "the same gender identity of people assigned female at birth" is not clear. Or did this try to explain what is a trans woman? Then you can just replace female with male, but would this contextualization be necessary? LIrala (talk) 01:50, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
Sources to use (since they are many, only use the most reliable and highly reputable ones):
level-4 vital article is rated B-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale..svg){kind=small}
Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. M.Bitton (talk) 21:52, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Trans § Requested move 15 November 2024. Please join the move discussion for a primary redirect to this article currently in progress. Raladic (talk) 23:43, 15 November 2024 (UTC)
Already done User:JuxtaposedJacob completed the request The AP (talk) 12:23, 8 December 2024 (UTC)
