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|author = ]
|title = Ivermectin booster Dr. Tess Lawrie goes all-in for homeopathy for COVID and long COVID
|date = March 6, 2023
|org = ]
|url = https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/ivermectin-booster-dr-tess-lawrie-goes-all-in-for-homeopathy-for-covid-and-long-covid/
|lang =
|quote = Lawrie, as is the case with most quacks, is not happy with Misplaced Pages. Indeed, she starts out by looking at Misplaced Pages: "Let’s start with the lies and misinformation about homeopathy. Here's how the internet's propaganda factory Misplaced Pages currently defines it:"
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|accessdate = March 13, 2023
| author2 = Syeda ShahBano Ijaz
| title2 = How Conflicts and Population Loss Led to the Rise of English Misplaced Pages’s Credibility
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| url2 = https://politicalsciencenow.com/how-conflicts-and-population-loss-led-to-the-rise-of-english-wikipedias-credibility/
| date2 = 29 May 2023
| quote2 = Take the example of the Misplaced Pages page on homeopathy: from 2001-2006, the lead on the page described homeopathy as a “controversial system of alternative medicine.” From 2006-2013, the content changed to mentioning that homeopathy has been “regarded as pseudoscience” and sharing that there is a “lack of convincing scientific evidence confirming its efficacy.” By 2015, this description had stabilized to “homeopathy is a pseudoscience.”
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== Mathematically impossible statement ==
== Update ==


The article contains this statement:
Why is the information on Homoeopathy not updated? As technology advances, new researches have been undertaken by CCRH, India , BSc students, IIT Mumbai and can show new evidences about working of Homoeopathy ] (]) 14:09, 13 March 2022 (UTC)
"A 200C dilution of duck liver, marketed under the name Oscillococcinum, would require 10^320 universes worth of molecules to contain just one original molecule in the final substance."

: Seems up-to-date to me. If you have new information, you are welcome to propose a change to the article. Don't forget to cite the ] backing the changes you are proposing. I also strongly suggest that you read the FAQ at te top of this page as well as the archives of this talk page to get familiar with previous discussions on the same subject. --] (]) 15:11, 13 March 2022 (UTC) This does not make any sense. For one, the volume of diluent would have to be (literally) astronomically large. For two, I'm pretty sure no known scientific process achieves this level of purity. If homeopaths in fact claim to achieve this level of purity, I suppose that's just another false claim: but I don't think it should be treated as a fact. ] (]) 02:13, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
:It's supposed to be earth atmoshpheres not "universes", I think.<span id="Usedtobecool:1722222132127:TalkFTTCLNHomeopathy" class="FTTCmt"> —&nbsp;''']'''&nbsp;] 03:02, 29 July 2024 (UTC)</span>

::No, it's universes. The math is supposed to show how aburd homeopaths' claims are. Of course, homeopaths do not do the diluting all at once: take one "duck liver molecule" (whatever that may be) and 10^320 universes of water. They do it step by step, and in summary it amounts to that. --] (]) 04:42, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
Homoeopathy is a science and therefore it is still existing.. Before claiming it as PSEUDOSCIENCE, kindly check the respective literature. One is unable to find medicinal particles in the dilution doesn't mean that it doesn't contain it. Similarly One can take example of Electricity. You know power house etc.. but when the switch you on makes the light on, do you see any visible energy? Homoeopathy Similarly works in this way. h ] (]) 14:35, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
:::That's precisely the point, though: no human can perform a dilution "step by step" that achieves anything even remotely resembling 1 molecule in 1 galaxy's worth, much less 1 universe's worth. This 10^320 universes must come from bad math or some mistake somewhere. If the idea is to discredit homeopathy, it would be best not to do so with logically impossible math / physics. ] (]) 14:46, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

:The relevant academic literature has exhaustive consensus against considering homeopathy as a science and regardless of the mechanism, no effectiveness beyond placebo has been shown as for its medicinal effect. ] (]) 14:39, 19 April 2022 (UTC) ::::Demonstrating that something is mathematically impossible seems to me to be a darned good way to discredit it. ] (]) 14:50, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
::::The ''maths'' itself is correct - a 200C dilution is genuinely that small a resulting number of molecules. And it's actually not that difficult to dilute something to that level - it's only a 1:100 dilution performed 200 times. If you were diluting in bigger amounts of solvent you could do it very quickly. ] 15:02, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
:{{tq|One is unable to find medicinal particles in the dilution doesn't mean that it doesn't contain it.}}
:::::If this is all ], it doesn’t need to be included, mathematically sound or not. It’s like refuting creationism with the ]— you don’t need to prove something with no basis in science, that clearly is incompatible with science on a macroscopic scale (it doesn’t work) is ''also'' incompatible with science on a microscopic scale. That should be obvious. ] (]) 15:49, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
:Resorting to ] is not a great argument. Your argument about electricity is just plain asinine, since we have ample evidence of how electricity works & can even measure its presence (unlike your "water memory"). &mdash; <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 15:25, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
::::::It cites a source. ] (]) 16:03, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
:{{tq|…but when the switch you on makes the light on, do you see any visible energy?}}
:The light wouldn’t be much use if you couldn’t. But quite apart from that, there’s no good evidence for efficacy, the ideas behind it are contradicted by what we know about chemistry, physics and arithmetic, and we have appropriate RSs that say it is pseudoscience. ] (]) 18:44, 19 April 2022 (UTC) :::::::It still seems like kind of a strange statement to include for the same reason I already described. Does this help the reader understand the topic or just double down on the fact that homeopathy obviously has no basis in science in a weird, overly technical way? ] (]) 16:11, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
::::::::I made this edit, to make clearer to readers that it isn't OR: . --] (]) 17:24, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

::Even by the standards of this talk page 'do you see any visible energy when you turn on the lights' has to be one of the weakest arguments yet. Dilution to non-existence doesn't improve efficacy around here. ] ] (]) 18:54, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
:::To answer the OP's question, as we owe them that much, YES indeed we do. I fear they may not understand the answer, as they certainly dont understand their own question. Ah well, nevermind. -] ] 19:05, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
:Well, just as we have invented special devices for detecting energy, implicitly there should be some way to invent devices to detect the medicinal particles. Once such is invented, then homeopathy can be considered a proper science. ] (]) 21:45, 23 July 2022 (UTC)
::We have devices capable of detecting medicinal particles, lots of them. The funny thing is, when they are pointed at homeopathic remedies, no such particles show up. One assumes that is why they don't work. ]] 21:50, 23 July 2022 (UTC)

== Homoeopathy not Homeopathy ==

People often confuse the two as they don’t understand the significance of the name “Homoeopathy”. Homois means like or similar - pathos means suffering and hence Homoeopathy means similar suffering. It should not be misspelt as Homeopathy with all due respect. ] (]) 14:18, 13 March 2022 (UTC)

:The relevant part of the ] is ]. We don't concern ourselves with whether or not a name is 'correct', we look at what the sources call it. The 'homoeopathy' spelling variant is included in the article, but the majority of sources in the article itself seem to use the 'homeopathy' variant. I did a quick check on Google now: 'homoeopathy' gets about 19 million hits, whereas 'homeopathy' gets 1,400 million hits. I think out current title is the correct choice, in terms of our internal style guide. ]] 14:29, 13 March 2022 (UTC)
::Thank you Girth. For many years I used the "correct" spelling everywhere, but the usage thing won me over and the incorrect spelling everybody uses no longer grates with me. I still see red when I see ''Fiber'' instead of ''Fibre'' though, but that isn't quite the same thing as it is a regional variation. -] ] 14:56, 13 March 2022 (UTC)

: ''homeo-'' and ''homoeo-'' are the identical prefix; it's just spelled two ways, like ''color'' and ''colour''. Both spellings are fine. ] ] 22:28, 26 March 2022 (UTC)

⚫ == Semi-protected edit request on 24 April 2022 ==


⚫ == Semi-protected edit request on 10 August 2024 ==
{{collapse top|Collapse AI blather}}
{{edit semi-protected|Homeopathy|answered=yes}} {{edit semi-protected|Homeopathy|answered=yes}}
This critique of homeopathy focuses on the system's funding, pseudo-scientific aspects, and the flaws in its purported benefits, rather than providing an objective overview of the system itself. It targets and undermines the supporters of homeopathy, leading me to question Misplaced Pages's reliability. For instance, some people assert that vaccines are scientifically proven to be beneficial, while others, presenting genuine cases of side effects, argue against them. If I were to present only one-sided arguments on Misplaced Pages, how would the extensive research in this field be valued? My concern is that Misplaced Pages should not provide a platform for biased views to propagate. The sheer number of references does not necessarily validate the claims, as opposing viewpoints are often supported by numerous sources as well. If Misplaced Pages lacks the ethical standards to prevent the publication of content without considering the writer's bias or without an editorial board to set boundaries, readers like me may lose trust in the platform.
There has been mounting scientific evidence that Homoeopathy works ] (]) 17:21, 24 April 2022 (UTC)
{{collapse bottom}}
There is mounting scientific, clinical and statistical evidence that Homoeopathy is effective in mitigating and curing different diseases. ] (]) 17:25, 24 April 2022 (UTC)
] (]) 09:28, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
* (1) No there isn't (2) If I am wrong you will presumably be able to provide multiple ]-compatible sources to confirm this. ] 17:34, 24 April 2022 (UTC)
:{{notdone}} Please use this template for precise editing requests on matters where consensus has been achieved. ] (]) 09:34, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9884175/

'''Randomized controlled trials of individualized homeopathy: a state-of-the-art review'''

"Conclusion: The results of the available randomized trials suggest that individualized homeopathy '''has an effect over placebo.''' '''The evidence, however, is not convincing''' because of methodological shortcomings and inconsistencies. '''Future research should focus on replication of existing promising studies.''' New randomized studies should be preceded by pilot studies." <!-- Template:Unsigned --><span class="autosigned" style="font-size:85%;">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 15:10, 11 June 2022 (UTC)</span> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:Hi Jay. I'm not sure if I understand what you are saying here. Are you supporting or opposing the OP? Your citation does not support them. - ] ] 15:15, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

:In a low-impact alt-med journal which would presumably provide as generous a hearing as homeopathy would ever get, the authors were still only able to torture the data enough to produce a ''we-need-more-studies'' conclusion. Even they were forced to admit that "''...when the analysis was restricted to the methodologically best trials no significant effect was seen.''" Rigorous tests of homeopathy produce negative results. ](]) 15:23, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

== Wording of ineffectiveness of homeopathy ==

In the first paragraph, there is a sentence that says "Homeopathic remedies are typically biochemically inert, and have no effect on any known disease". This seems slightly misleading, as homeopathic remedies '''can''' have positive effects on diseases, just not more than a placebo would. I think a more technically correct sentence there would be something like "Homeopathic remedies are typically biochemically inert, and have no effect on any known disease when compared to a placebo". Thoughts? ] (]) 20:59, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 11:54, 16 November 2024

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References

  1. Jonas, WB; Ives, JA (February 2008). "Should we explore the clinical utility of hormesis". Human & Experimental Toxicology. 27 (2): 123–127. PMID 18480136.
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Mathematically impossible statement

The article contains this statement: "A 200C dilution of duck liver, marketed under the name Oscillococcinum, would require 10^320 universes worth of molecules to contain just one original molecule in the final substance." This does not make any sense. For one, the volume of diluent would have to be (literally) astronomically large. For two, I'm pretty sure no known scientific process achieves this level of purity. If homeopaths in fact claim to achieve this level of purity, I suppose that's just another false claim: but I don't think it should be treated as a fact. Andrewbrink (talk) 02:13, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

It's supposed to be earth atmoshpheres not "universes", I think. — Usedtobecool ☎️ 03:02, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
No, it's universes. The math is supposed to show how aburd homeopaths' claims are. Of course, homeopaths do not do the diluting all at once: take one "duck liver molecule" (whatever that may be) and 10^320 universes of water. They do it step by step, and in summary it amounts to that. --Hob Gadling (talk) 04:42, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
That's precisely the point, though: no human can perform a dilution "step by step" that achieves anything even remotely resembling 1 molecule in 1 galaxy's worth, much less 1 universe's worth. This 10^320 universes must come from bad math or some mistake somewhere. If the idea is to discredit homeopathy, it would be best not to do so with logically impossible math / physics. Andrewbrink (talk) 14:46, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
Demonstrating that something is mathematically impossible seems to me to be a darned good way to discredit it. AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:50, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
The maths itself is correct - a 200C dilution is genuinely that small a resulting number of molecules. And it's actually not that difficult to dilute something to that level - it's only a 1:100 dilution performed 200 times. If you were diluting in bigger amounts of solvent you could do it very quickly. Black Kite (talk) 15:02, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
If this is all WP:OR, it doesn’t need to be included, mathematically sound or not. It’s like refuting creationism with the law of conservation of mass— you don’t need to prove something with no basis in science, that clearly is incompatible with science on a macroscopic scale (it doesn’t work) is also incompatible with science on a microscopic scale. That should be obvious. Dronebogus (talk) 15:49, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
It cites a source. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:03, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
It still seems like kind of a strange statement to include for the same reason I already described. Does this help the reader understand the topic or just double down on the fact that homeopathy obviously has no basis in science in a weird, overly technical way? Dronebogus (talk) 16:11, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
I made this edit, to make clearer to readers that it isn't OR: . --Tryptofish (talk) 17:24, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 10 August 2024

Collapse AI blather
This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

This critique of homeopathy focuses on the system's funding, pseudo-scientific aspects, and the flaws in its purported benefits, rather than providing an objective overview of the system itself. It targets and undermines the supporters of homeopathy, leading me to question Misplaced Pages's reliability. For instance, some people assert that vaccines are scientifically proven to be beneficial, while others, presenting genuine cases of side effects, argue against them. If I were to present only one-sided arguments on Misplaced Pages, how would the extensive research in this field be valued? My concern is that Misplaced Pages should not provide a platform for biased views to propagate. The sheer number of references does not necessarily validate the claims, as opposing viewpoints are often supported by numerous sources as well. If Misplaced Pages lacks the ethical standards to prevent the publication of content without considering the writer's bias or without an editorial board to set boundaries, readers like me may lose trust in the platform.

118.148.126.228 (talk) 09:28, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

 Not done Please use this template for precise editing requests on matters where consensus has been achieved. Bon courage (talk) 09:34, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
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