Revision as of 17:16, 23 October 2022 view source71.190.233.44 (talk) →Approval ratings and unpopularity: ReplyTag: Reply← Previous edit | Latest revision as of 15:01, 30 December 2024 view source Lowercase sigmabot III (talk | contribs)Bots, Template editors2,295,489 editsm Archiving 1 discussion(s) to Talk:Joe Biden/Archive 19) (bot | ||
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== Current consensus == <!-- Must be on this page, not the subpage, to support mobile users --> | |||
{{/Current consensus}} | {{/Current consensus}} | ||
== "Announced military support for Israel" in the lede == | |||
== Entering that Inflation Reduction Act can help the USA to achieve its target in the Paris Agreement == | |||
I have posted a sentence "With the bill and additional federal and state measures, the USA can fulfill its pledge in the ]: 50% greenhouse gas emissions reduction by the year 2030." | |||
It was deleted with this explanation: "Then lets wait and see if they do." But several sentences before there are suggestions about how much the bill wil reduce the GHG emissions. These are also suggestions based on calculations, so why not delete them? | |||
https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Joe_Biden&oldid=prev&diff=1114029121 | |||
Myy edit is not based on my own proposition: the same sources who are cited when talking about suggested GHG reduction several sentences above, says it explicitly (page 1): | |||
" If the IRA passes, additional executive and state actions can realistically achieve the U.S. nationallydetermined commitments(NDCs) under the Paris Agreement. " | |||
https://energyinnovation.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/Modeling-the-Inflation-Reduction-Act-with-the-US-Energy-Policy-Simulator_August.pdf | |||
The second source (below the second graph): | |||
"This is a huge step forward towards the US climate target of 50-52% below 2005 levels in 2030, though clearly more action is needed. No single action on its own will be enough to meet the target. Still the IRA changes the game, not just with the deep emissions reductions it generates but also by cutting the cost of additional action by the executive branch and states, which could put the 2030 target within reach." | |||
https://rhg.com/research/climate-clean-energy-inflation-reduction-act/ | |||
I think this is enough important for being mentioned on the page of ]. | |||
Can the edit be reinstalled? ] (]) 15:23, 6 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
:Can does not mean will, so it may well be that he can't meet these commitments. In addition, this is about Biden, not his presidency. So even if he did meet them what does this tell USA bout him? ] (]) 15:26, 6 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
== To Edit Joe Biden's Infobox To This == | |||
{{atop|result=See ] below. ] (]) 02:56, 12 October 2022 (UTC)}} | |||
Hello. | |||
I see that the infobox only has 3 offices in it due to a consensus. And while I agree that we should cut down Biden's infobox size, I do '''not''' think that it should be solved by getting rid of offices in the infobox. Sure, right now they are at the bottom of the infobox, but IMHO most readers will easily miss that. His senatorial committee chairmanships are stretches to remove, but I am heavily confused as to why we ever removed his County Council seat. | |||
I think that the infobox I have in this section is way better than the one we have now. We can have all of Biden's offices in his infobox while keeping it to a size. For those who are interested in his senatorial committee chairmanships, they can click a button to view them. | |||
Again, I think this one is way better than the one we have now. Thank you for considering. | |||
{{Collapse top}} | |||
{{Infobox officeholder | |||
| image = Joe Biden presidential portrait.jpg | |||
| caption = Official portrait, 2021 | |||
| order = 46th | |||
| office = President of the United States | |||
| vicepresident = ] | |||
| term_start = January 20, 2021 | |||
| predecessor = ] | |||
| order2 = 47th | |||
| office2 = Vice President of the United States | |||
| president2 = ] | |||
| term_start2 = January 20, 2009 | |||
| term_end2 = January 20, 2017 | |||
| predecessor2 = ] | |||
| successor2 = ] | |||
| jr/sr3 = United States Senator | |||
| state3 = ] | |||
| term_start3 = January 3, 1973 | |||
| term_end3 = January 15, 2009 | |||
| predecessor3 = ] | |||
| successor3 = ] | |||
{{collapsed infobox section begin|last=yes|Senatorial committee chairmanships {{nobold|(1987–{{wj}}2009)}} | |||
|titlestyle = border:1px dashed lightgrey;}}{{Infobox officeholder |embed=yes | |||
| office4 = Chair of the ] | |||
| term_start4 = January 3, 2007 | |||
| term_end4 = January 3, 2009 | |||
| predecessor4 = ] | |||
| successor4 = ] | |||
| term_start5 = June 6, 2001 | |||
| term_end5 = January 3, 2003 | |||
| predecessor5 = ] | |||
| successor5 = Richard Lugar | |||
| term_start6 = January 3, 2001 | |||
| term_end6 = January 20, 2001 | |||
| predecessor6 = Jesse Helms | |||
| successor6 = Jesse Helms | |||
| office7 = Chair of the ] | |||
| term_start7 = January 3, 2007 | |||
| term_end7 = January 3, 2009 | |||
| predecessor7 = ] | |||
| successor7 = ] | |||
| office8 = Chair of the ] | |||
| term_start8 = January 3, 1987 | |||
| term_end8 = January 3, 1995 | |||
| predecessor8 = ] | |||
| successor8 = ] | |||
{{Collapsed infobox section end}}}} | |||
| office9 = Member of the ]<br>from the 4th district | |||
| term_start9 = January 5, 1971 | |||
| term_end9 = January 1, 1973 | |||
| predecessor9 = Henry R. Folsom | |||
| successor9 = Francis R. Swift | |||
| birth_name = Joseph Robinette Biden Jr. | |||
| birth_date = {{Birth date and age|1942|11|20}} | |||
| birth_place = ], U.S. | |||
| death_date = | |||
| death_place = | |||
| party = ] (1969–present) | |||
| otherparty = ] (before 1969) | |||
| spouse = {{plainlist| | |||
* {{marriage|]|August 27, 1966|December 18, 1972|reason=died}} | |||
* {{marriage|]|June 17, 1977}} | |||
}} | |||
| children = {{flatlist| | |||
* ] | |||
* ] | |||
* ] | |||
* ] | |||
}} | |||
| parents = | |||
| relatives = ] | |||
| occupation = {{hlist|Politician|lawyer|author}} | |||
| education = ] | |||
| alma_mater = {{plainlist| | |||
* ] (]) | |||
* ] (]) | |||
}} | |||
| awards = ] | |||
| signature = Joe Biden Signature.svg | |||
| website = {{plainlist| | |||
* {{URL|joebiden.com|Campaign website}} | |||
* {{URL|whitehouse.gov/administration/president-biden/|White House website}} | |||
}} | |||
}} | |||
{{collapse bottom}} | |||
] (]) 03:11, 11 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
:I agree this is a reasonable change. ]<sup>]</sup> 03:17, 11 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
::Him being chair of Senate Judiciary and Senate Foreign Relations alone are so much more notable than New Castle County Council. I don't personally find these particularly useful. ] (]) 05:37, 11 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
:::{{Ping|Therequiembellishere}} Yeah that’s arguable. But the point is is that the offices belong in the infobox regardless…] (]) 07:42, 11 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
{{abot}} | |||
== RfC on Joe Biden's Infobox Contents == | |||
<!-- ] 03:01, 16 November 2022 (UTC) -->{{User:ClueBot III/DoNotArchiveUntil|1668567682}} | |||
{{rfc|pol|rfcid=86FCB0C}} | |||
Should we modify Joe Biden's infobox to include all of his offices in a modified way that still shortens the length of his infobox. I have listed an example below. | |||
'''Example''' | |||
{{Infobox officeholder | |||
| image = Joe Biden presidential portrait.jpg | |||
| caption = Official portrait, 2021 | |||
| order = 46th | |||
| office = President of the United States | |||
| vicepresident = ] | |||
| term_start = January 20, 2021 | |||
| predecessor = ] | |||
| order2 = 47th | |||
| office2 = Vice President of the United States | |||
| president2 = ] | |||
| term_start2 = January 20, 2009 | |||
| term_end2 = January 20, 2017 | |||
| predecessor2 = ] | |||
| successor2 = ] | |||
| jr/sr3 = United States Senator | |||
| state3 = ] | |||
| term_start3 = January 3, 1973 | |||
| term_end3 = January 15, 2009 | |||
| predecessor3 = ] | |||
| successor3 = ] | |||
{{collapsed infobox section begin|last=yes|Senatorial committee chairmanships {{nobold|(1987–{{wj}}2009)}} | |||
|titlestyle = border:1px dashed lightgrey;}}{{Infobox officeholder |embed=yes | |||
| office4 = Chair of the ] | |||
| term_start4 = January 3, 2007 | |||
| term_end4 = January 3, 2009 | |||
| predecessor4 = ] | |||
| successor4 = ] | |||
| term_start5 = June 6, 2001 | |||
| term_end5 = January 3, 2003 | |||
| predecessor5 = ] | |||
| successor5 = Richard Lugar | |||
| term_start6 = January 3, 2001 | |||
| term_end6 = January 20, 2001 | |||
| predecessor6 = Jesse Helms | |||
| successor6 = Jesse Helms | |||
| office7 = Chair of the ] | |||
| term_start7 = January 3, 2007 | |||
| term_end7 = January 3, 2009 | |||
| predecessor7 = ] | |||
| successor7 = ] | |||
| office8 = Chair of the ] | |||
| term_start8 = January 3, 1987 | |||
| term_end8 = January 3, 1995 | |||
| predecessor8 = ] | |||
| successor8 = ] | |||
{{Collapsed infobox section end}}}} | |||
| office9 = Member of the ]<br>from the 4th district | |||
| term_start9 = January 5, 1971 | |||
| term_end9 = January 1, 1973 | |||
| predecessor9 = Henry R. Folsom | |||
| successor9 = Francis R. Swift | |||
| birth_name = Joseph Robinette Biden Jr. | |||
| birth_date = {{Birth date and age|1942|11|20}} | |||
| birth_place = ], U.S. | |||
| death_date = | |||
| death_place = | |||
| party = ] (1969–present) | |||
| otherparty = ] (before 1969) | |||
| spouse = {{plainlist| | |||
* {{marriage|]|August 27, 1966|December 18, 1972|reason=died}} | |||
* {{marriage|]|June 17, 1977}} | |||
}} | |||
| children = {{flatlist| | |||
* ] | |||
* ] | |||
* ] | |||
* ] | |||
}} | |||
| parents = | |||
| relatives = ] | |||
| occupation = {{hlist|Politician|lawyer|author}} | |||
| education = ] | |||
| alma_mater = {{plainlist| | |||
* ] (]) | |||
* ] (]) | |||
}} | |||
| awards = ] | |||
| signature = Joe Biden Signature.svg | |||
| website = {{plainlist| | |||
* {{URL|joebiden.com|Campaign website}} | |||
* {{URL|whitehouse.gov/administration/president-biden/|White House website}} | |||
}} | |||
}} | |||
] (]) 02:36, 12 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
This might have been addressed before, but why does the lede mention only that Biden "announced" military support for Israel? This reads as if it was written prior to his administration in unprecedented numbers. If no one objects, I would change it to : | |||
:{{ping|Iamreallygoodatcheckers|Therequiembellishere}} Courtesy pings to the users who participated in the infobox discussion above. ] (]) 03:01, 12 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
* '''Yes/Support''' ] (]) 03:38, 12 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
* '''Oppose'''. The infobox is slightly shorter on desktop. However, the Senate leadership fields are ''not'' collapsible on the mobile version of Misplaced Pages, resulting in the infobox being significantly longer for mobile users compared to the version currently in the article. ] (]) 04:03, 12 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
*'''Support''' inclusion of New Castle County Council; '''oppose''' inclusion of Senate leadership fields. The Senate leadership positions weren't really ''offices'' in the same sense as the others here, and are reasonable to keep out for brevity. We shouldn't leave out a directly-elected office he held, though. ] (] | ]) 04:22, 12 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
*'''Oppose''' The infobox is supposed to summarize the key points. It doesn't have to summarize every point. – ] (]) 04:23, 12 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
*{{sbb}} '''Oppose'''. Infobox does not exist to provide an all-encompassing, exhaustive, and concise introduction about the subject to the reader. As an element of the lead, its ] is to recapitulate the prominent nuggets that figure in the article's body. To then treat it as a repository of infructuous trivia and facts in existence is to detract from that very purpose. ] (]) 07:53, 12 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
*Well, I was going to support, but after reading {{u|Aoi}}’s comment that this is not collapsible on mobile, I don’t think this is a good idea. I '''oppose''']<sup>]</sup> 14:59, 12 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
*'''Oppose''', if what it had done to this talk page is anything to go by, too long with pointless trivia that really tells us nothing. ] (]) 15:03, 12 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
*'''Oppose''' – doesn't collapse on mobile and provides an excess of information. As MBlaze Lightening has noted, it goes against the guideline ] which emphasizes brevity for clarity: | |||
::"{{tq|keep in mind the purpose of an infobox: to summarize (and not supplant) key facts that appear in the article ... The less information it contains, the more effectively it serves that purpose, allowing readers to identify key facts at a glance}}" | |||
:--] (]) 11:11, 17 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
*'''Support''' but '''oppose''' Senate leadership per ]. ] (]) 02:39, 22 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
{{green|During the Israel–Hamas war, Biden condemned the actions of Hamas as terrorism and sent extensive military aid to Israel, as well as limited humanitarian aid to the Gaza Strip.}} | |||
== Slightly elevated inflation? == | |||
While we're at it, I think it's also worth using a couple of words to add that the aid was sent despite allegations of war crimes, if anyone would like to discuss that. ] (]) 14:43, 8 November 2024 (UTC) | |||
Seriously? Inflation has increased almost every month that Biden has been in office and has gone from '''' You cannot softpedal those numbers or ignore them and the idea that there has been wage growth is a lie as real wages have reduced because of inflation. This is fluffery of the highest degree after '''' I’m not inclined to mess around with the page but this should be corrected, it’s incredibly biased. ] (]) 02:35, 18 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
: |
:It can be argued that as the US has supported Israel since the 1960's its undue to single out Biden. ] (]) 14:45, 8 November 2024 (UTC) | ||
::I don't think that it's "singling out" Biden because A) , and B) that same year ] (]) 15:01, 8 November 2024 (UTC) | |||
::You post the five pillars of Misplaced Pages on your talk page, please reread them - specifically '']'' and '']'' I’ve cited sources that clearly contradict the fluffery in the article which needs to be updated to reflect the correct information. ] (]) 12:10, 18 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
:{{done}}, with the swap of "extensive" (from my original proposal) to "an unprecedented amount of", more factual. ] (]) 19:14, 10 November 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::When you talk about "fluffery" and are clearly here to push right wing talking points, it's harder to treat you with respect and civility. If you want to be treated with civility and respect, you need to first give it. Instead of talking about "fluffery" and bias(everything is biased), say something like "I read this article and I am concerned it does not have a ] because.....". It's a fact that inflation is a global problem not unique to the US, and is actually worse in places like the UK. ] (]) 12:16, 18 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
::I' |
::I don't thing "unprecedented" is the correct terminology to use in the lead. While Biden has been a strong supporter for high levels of military aid, there have been similar meausres of support by prior administrations such as that of ] in the ]. ] (]) 22:08, 10 November 2024 (UTC) | ||
:::Never this much in a single year, though, which I think is quite notable. And IMO a factual stat is more descriptive + neutral than just something like "large", "extensive" ] (]) 13:24, 11 November 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::The common refrain on the US political right at this moment is "inflation is terrible and it's all Joe Biden's/the Democrats' fault"- when it's a global issue not unique to the US and actually worse outside the US- which is an argument that Biden/Democratic policies have blunted inflation, not made it worse. ] (]) 12:38, 18 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
: |
:Disagree with this. The United States has been strongly supporting Israel for many decades. To imply that this is a Biden creation is not neutral. ] (]) 22:35, 12 November 2024 (UTC) | ||
::@] Please explain how the sentence implies that this is a "Biden creation"? It states that the amount of military aid sent by the Biden administration since the war started is a record, which is true, as you can read for yourself. ] (]) 15:21, 13 November 2024 (UTC) | |||
:The text in the article reads {{tq|'''significantly''' elevated inflation}} (not "slightly"), which is accurate. Did you misread it? The point about wage growth is that people are less hard hit by inflation if their earnings are also increasing. But real earnings are still down, so that's why it said it was {{tq|partially offset}} by an increase in wage/salary. So that appears to be accurate as well. Perhaps we could write {{tq|partially offset by the highest <u>nominal</u> wage and salary growth in at least 20 years}} to make it clearer? ] (]) 12:28, 18 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
:: |
:::"Unprecedented" is hyperbolic language that suggests there is something out-of-the-ordinary about the Biden administration's support of Israel. ] (]) 22:37, 13 November 2024 (UTC) | ||
::::I'm entirely fine with "record amount" if that makes it clearer, but this ''is'' the largest amount of military aid ever sent to Israel by the US in a year. Clearly Biden isn't the first president to support Israel; my proposed sentence isn't saying that either. But the aid he's sent during this war is notable – not only statistically but because of human rights concerns – which is why it's been a front-page news subject for more than a year. ] (]) 09:35, 14 November 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::And that was the core point of my initial response. The OP clearly wants the article to say it is. It would be wrong to do so, and to even ask is pushing ill-informed, standard, right-wing, insular, American, political dogma. ] (]) 21:07, 18 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
:Update: I changed the "announced" part since no one objected to that part. Would anyone like to add something about "record amount"? I'd be interested in an RfC to see where people stand on this ] (]) 14:48, 3 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::Your comments are insulting, do everyone a favor and reread ] or read it if you haven’t already,as far as nominal wage growth goes I’m not pulling from right wing sources to make a point here '''' and the inflation rate has gotten even higher than what is listed in the article. I don’t ‘want’ anything... the article should reflect a '']'' and in that case it means that the numbers on the economy should be presented in a clear light. In an article at the beginning of the year CNBC posted this '''' and the inflation numbers have only gotten worse since. I don’t take it upon myself to change the language on the page but I do bring concerns to the talk page and not to be insulted by some editors.] (]) 01:48, 19 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
::I would like to ask why do you believe that it is necessary to indicate that he sent '''limited''' humanitarian aid to Gaza. Is there a consensus of sources that agree that the amount of humanitarian aid is limited? I agree that it probably is not enough, but it seems to me that calling it limited, especially without sources is ]. ] (]) 02:53, 5 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::IP, I wouldn't even try to argue with editors who have a clear bias. Unfortunately, it is why this project is so looked down upon. --] (]) 01:59, 19 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
:::{{u|WikiFouf}} No reply?--] (]) 15:30, 7 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::My bias is to look at global economic matters from a global perspective, not from that of those wanting to score political points inside a country with less than 5% of the world's population. ] (]) 05:30, 19 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
::::Sorry, wasn't very active recently. US failure in getting humanitarian aid into Gaza has been a major news topic for the past year: see floating pier saga, air dropping, 30-day ultimatum, etc. All of these failures are related to Israel limiting aid into Gaza. In any case, the military aid sent to Israel far outweighs the humanitarian aid to Gaza, so putting them side by side in the same sentence without qualifiers creates false balance imo. ] (]) 15:54, 7 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::HiLo48, the initial message was misleading, but there is no point in just insulting the editors. The ] has its own article. ] (]) 19:30, 20 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
::::: |
:::::While I agree that the humanitarian aid is probably insufficient, I still find it to be a violation of ] to call it limited. ] (]) 19:56, 7 December 2024 (UTC) | ||
::::::It's literally limited, as I explained ] (]) 08:06, 8 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::{{u|WikiFouf}} So once again, do you have any sources?--] (]) 14:31, 8 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::::Don't have access to my computer at the moment, I can put sources in a couple of days. You can google the examples I've mentioned though, as I said it's been a big news topic ] (]) 14:46, 8 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::::@] First, for some perspective, the Biden admin has sent in military aid to Israel in a year, a historical record, and in humanitarian aid to Palestinians in the same period. Mentioning both forms of aid side by side without qualifiers is dishonest IMHO. Now here's a variety of sources talking how the humanitarian aid has been limited: | |||
::::::::* 11/24 : (Associated Press) | |||
::::::::* 11/24 : (TIME) | |||
::::::::* 10/24 : (NBC News) | |||
::::::::* 10/24 : (BBC) | |||
::::::::* 09/24 : (ProPublica) | |||
::::::::* 07/24 : (Economist) | |||
::::::::* 07/24 : (PBS) | |||
::::::::* 06/24 : (New York Times) | |||
::::::::* 05/24 : (Reuters) | |||
::::::::* 03/24 : (Washington Post) | |||
::::::::* 02/24 : (VOA) | |||
::::::::* 02/24 : (CNN) | |||
::::::::* 01/24 : (Guardian) | |||
::::::::] (]) 13:48, 10 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::{{re|WikiFouf}} Most of these sources do not say that the Biden administration is sending a limited amount of aid to Gaza, but that limited aid is actually getting into Gaza, mainly due to obstruction by the Israeli government, right-wing protestors and weather. ] (]) 16:36, 14 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::@] I've been interpreting it in the literal sense, as in the amount of aid is literally (being) limited; not that it's a limited amount as in "a small amount". I do agree with you that the term is not ideal and can lead to confusion, but it's a hard situation to condense properly in just a couple of words. I'm really against putting "military" and "humanitarian aid" side by side just like that, for the reasons I explained. But I'm also not sure that the humanitarian aid saga is something worth dedicating more than a couple of words to. Suggestions? ] (]) 20:14, 14 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::{{U|WikiFouf}} If you also find the term to be too contentious, we can just remove the entire clause about sending humanitarian aid to Palestine, at least until a consensus can be found. We can also try an RFC. ] (]) 15:29, 15 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::::@] I'm fine with that, I'll remove it rn. I was already thinking an RFC could be useful to decide how to include the war in the lede in general, so I'm all for it ] (]) 21:52, 15 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
== Biden believes he could have won re-election == | |||
== Approval ratings and unpopularity == | |||
In December 2024, as was widely reported, Biden told aides he regretted his decision to withdraw from the race; believing he would have won the election as his party's nominee.<ref>{{Cite news |last=Massie |first=Graeme |date=December 29, 2024 |title=Biden still regrets dropping out of 2024 race and believes he could have beaten Trump, says report |newspaper=] |url=https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/biden-trump-us-elections-2024-merrick-garland-b2671126.html |access-date=December 29, 2024 }}</ref><ref>{{Cite news |last=Pager |first=Tyler |date=December 28, 2024 |title=Joe Biden’s lonely battle to sell his vision of American democracy |newspaper=] |url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/12/28/bidens-lonely-battle-to-sell-american-democracy/ |access-date=December 29, 2024 }}</ref><ref>{{Cite news |last=Tait |first=Robert |date=December 28, 2024 |title=Biden reportedly regrets ending re-election campaign and says he’d have defeated Trump |newspaper=] |url=https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/dec/28/joe-biden-regrets-dropping-out-re-election |access-date=December 29, 2024 }}</ref><ref>{{Cite news |last=Calder |first=Rich |date=December 28, 2024 |title=Biden regrets leaving presidential race, thinks he could’ve beaten Trump: report |newspaper=] |url=https://nypost.com/2024/12/28/us-news/biden-regrets-leaving-presidential-race-thinks-he-would-beat-trump/ |access-date=December 29, 2024 }}</ref><ref>{{Cite news |last=Stimson |first=Brie |date=December 28, 2024 |title=Biden still regrets dropping out of 2024 presidential race, believes he could have beaten Trump: report |publisher=] |url=https://www.foxnews.com/politics/biden-still-regrets-dropping-out-2024-presidential-race-believes-he-could-have-beaten-trump-report |access-date=December 29, 2024 }}</ref> | |||
A recent edit of mine on his approval ratings and overall dismay for him in the public eye was reverted. The explanation I got was "Maintain ]" (keep away from bias). I do not think I was being biased; the edit had a source with the information that I wrote down; I thought it was a necessary edit because that article is trending right now (the article is also from a non-biased news agency); and that article came out today, like a few hours ago. Can I get an explanation? ] (]) 20:36, 20 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
:I can't see that basing content on what "''is trending right now''" is a great way to build a quality encyclopaedia. ] (]) 02:33, 21 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
::It's not. The accompanying text {{tq|With his ], Biden is unpopular in the public eye.}} isn't a neutral way to describe his current polling numbers either. – ] (]) 02:39, 21 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
:::I guess all I'm saying is news sources are starting to report on Biden's very low polling numbers and overall unpopularity. Don't believe me? look; | |||
:::https://www.cnn.com/2022/10/07/politics/biden-unpopular-cnn-poll/index.html | |||
:::https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/voters-care-about-joe-biden-s-unpopularity-not-donald-trump/ar-AAQhEWa | |||
:::https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/white-house/just-how-unpopular-is-joe-biden | |||
:::https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/nov/18/why-are-americans-so-unhappy-with-joe-biden | |||
:::https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2022/10/19/politics/biden-nyt-siena-poll-midterms/index.html | |||
:::https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/biden-mentally-sharp-state-union-b2025207.html | |||
:::https://www.usnews.com/news/the-report/articles/2022-01-21/why-is-joe-biden-so-unpopular | |||
:::https://www.foxnews.com/media/focus-group-rejects-biden-running-2024-stuns-msnbc-analyst-quick-wow | |||
:::https://www.reuters.com/world/us/biden-approval-stuck-40-dark-sign-democrats-midterms-reutersipsos-2022-10-18/ | |||
:::https://www.foxnews.com/media/joe-biden-worst-president-will-cain | |||
:::https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2022-election/bidens-approval-rating-still-key-issues-new-poll-shows-rcna48973 | |||
:::https://www.foxnews.com/politics/biden-drops-to-38-approval-in-new-national-poll | |||
:::https://www.usnews.com/news/top-news/articles/2022-09-27/biden-approval-edges-up-to-41-reuters-ipsos-finds | |||
:::Perhaps is "With his immensely low approval ratings, Biden is ''considered'' unpopular ''by the general public''" a better sentence? If not I will be happy to just not press forward with this. ] (]) 23:53, 21 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
::::Sources like Fox News, Washington Examiner, and opinion pieces in general wouldn't be usable for this. Misplaced Pages will most likely want to wait until more authoritative reviews of sources talk about Biden's popularity or unpopularity. It's true that Biden's approval has been slightly net negative for most of his time in office, and it's entirely possible that this will be a defining characterization of his presidency, but you definitely aren't going about it in the right way. Check out ], ], ], ], ] ''']'''<span style="border:2px solid #073642;background:rgb(255,156,0);background:linear-gradient(90deg, rgba(255,156,0,1) 0%, rgba(147,0,255,1) 45%, rgba(4,123,134,1) 87%);">]</span> 04:02, 21 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
:::::{{u|Rexxx7777}}, Trump's approval ratings in 2018 were quite similar to Biden's approval ratings in to 2022. Do you support adding language like {{tpq|immensely low approval ratings}} to Trump’s article as well? Read . ] (]) 04:13, 21 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
::::::I'm guessing that the "immensely" part is a bad addition. So, no, I will accept that since language like that is not appropriate in Biden's article then it should not be used in Trump's. If it was then yes. Is re-writing it as "''With his low approval ratings, Biden is considered unpopular by the general public''" better? ] (]) 01:03, 21 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
:::::Honestly fair enough. ] (]) 01:05, 21 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
::::::{{u|Rexxx7777}}, plenty of reliable sources describe the varying approval ratings of all presidents going back to when presidential approval ratings were first developed. But which specific reliable sources state something that can be reliably paraphrased, {{tpq|Biden is considered unpopular by the general public}}. Or, is that ] based on your individual reading of the polls? ] (]) 05:17, 21 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
:And as you can see from some of those, he is still not the most unpopular president ever, and these are all just snapshots. So lets wait till his presidency is over, and we can see what his lasting image is. ] (]) 09:54, 21 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
::Something about his approval ratings could go in ]. It should also note his approval ratings as a senator and vice president to be complete and not merely recentism bias. – ] (]) 16:44, 21 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
:::We would also need a range, showing how it has risen and fallen. ] (]) 17:02, 21 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
::::Right. As a comparison, I see that ] makes mentions of her approval ratings at a few points in the narrative, noting it as first lady, its peaks during the Lewinsky scandal and as secretary of state, and the "Cultural and political image" section notes her as a "polarizing figure". – ] (]) 17:26, 21 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
:::Actually, there isn’t any bias - you can go to '''' and compare Biden’s numbers against those of his predecessors going back to Truman, you can track it to an identical point in the Presidency of each of his predecessors even and Biden’s numbers are in fact worse than Trump’s. You can also go to the RCP site to see Biden’s numbers and again these are from a variety of pollsters ''''] (]) 17:16, 23 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
This information is confirmed by multiple ] and is obviously relevant to his notability as a politician. ] (]) 15:36, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
== Grandfather John Finnegan was an All-American football player at Santa Clara University == | |||
:But is it actually relevant, (assuming its true). ] (]) 15:47, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
:"Anonymous Sources Said" is a red flag for ] articles. We're not a tabloid. ] (]) 22:34, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
Joe Biden’s grandfather, John Finnegan, was an All-American football player at Santa Clara University. | |||
https://twitter.com/RNCResearch/status/1583159131179225088 | |||
"My grandfather Finnegan from Scranton would really be proud of me right now. No, I'm not joking, he would. By the way, he was an All-American football player, John, in Santa Clara." | |||
https://en.wikipedia.org/Santa_Clara_Broncos_football ] (]) 23:36, 21 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
:Too trivial to mention (his grandfather isn't even mentioned in the article, only that his mother's maiden name was Finnegan) and unconfirmed. -- ] (]) 02:40, 22 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
::Seems legit though. But it's more of a ] entry. – ] (]) 16:26, 23 October 2022 (UTC) |
Latest revision as of 15:01, 30 December 2024
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Current consensus
NOTE: It is recommended to link to this list in your edit summary when reverting, as:] item
To ensure you are viewing the current list, you may wish to purge this page.
01. In the lead section, mention that Biden is the oldest president. (RfC February 2021)
02. There is no consensus on including a subsection about gaffes. (RfC March 2021)
03. The infobox is shortened. (RfC February 2021)
04. The lead image is the official 2021 White House portrait. (January 2021, April 2021)
05. The lead image's caption is Official portrait, 2021
. (April 2021)
06. In the lead sentence, use who is
as opposed to serving as
when referring to Biden as the president. (RfC July 2021)
07. In the lead sentence, use 46th and current
as opposed to just 46th
when referring to Biden as the president. (RfC July 2021)
08. In the lead section, do not mention Biden's building of a port to facilitate American aid to Palestinians. (RfC June 2024)
"Announced military support for Israel" in the lede
This might have been addressed before, but why does the lede mention only that Biden "announced" military support for Israel? This reads as if it was written prior to his administration actually sending the military aid in unprecedented numbers. If no one objects, I would change it to :
During the Israel–Hamas war, Biden condemned the actions of Hamas as terrorism and sent extensive military aid to Israel, as well as limited humanitarian aid to the Gaza Strip.
While we're at it, I think it's also worth using a couple of words to add that the aid was sent despite allegations of war crimes, if anyone would like to discuss that. WikiFouf (talk) 14:43, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
- It can be argued that as the US has supported Israel since the 1960's its undue to single out Biden. Slatersteven (talk) 14:45, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
- I don't think that it's "singling out" Biden because A) no administration has ever sent Israel this much aid in a year, and B) that same year was the deadliest of the entire Israeli-Palestinian conflict WikiFouf (talk) 15:01, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
- Done, with the swap of "extensive" (from my original proposal) to "an unprecedented amount of", more factual. WikiFouf (talk) 19:14, 10 November 2024 (UTC)
- I don't thing "unprecedented" is the correct terminology to use in the lead. While Biden has been a strong supporter for high levels of military aid, there have been similar meausres of support by prior administrations such as that of Operation Nickel Grass in the Yom Kippur War. LosPajaros (talk) 22:08, 10 November 2024 (UTC)
- Never this much in a single year, though, which I think is quite notable. And IMO a factual stat is more descriptive + neutral than just something like "large", "extensive" WikiFouf (talk) 13:24, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
- I don't thing "unprecedented" is the correct terminology to use in the lead. While Biden has been a strong supporter for high levels of military aid, there have been similar meausres of support by prior administrations such as that of Operation Nickel Grass in the Yom Kippur War. LosPajaros (talk) 22:08, 10 November 2024 (UTC)
- Disagree with this. The United States has been strongly supporting Israel for many decades. To imply that this is a Biden creation is not neutral. Esterau16 (talk) 22:35, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
- @Esterau16 Please explain how the sentence implies that this is a "Biden creation"? It states that the amount of military aid sent by the Biden administration since the war started is a record, which is true, as you can read for yourself. WikiFouf (talk) 15:21, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
- "Unprecedented" is hyperbolic language that suggests there is something out-of-the-ordinary about the Biden administration's support of Israel. Zaathras (talk) 22:37, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
- I'm entirely fine with "record amount" if that makes it clearer, but this is the largest amount of military aid ever sent to Israel by the US in a year. Clearly Biden isn't the first president to support Israel; my proposed sentence isn't saying that either. But the aid he's sent during this war is notable – not only statistically but because of human rights concerns – which is why it's been a front-page news subject for more than a year. WikiFouf (talk) 09:35, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
- "Unprecedented" is hyperbolic language that suggests there is something out-of-the-ordinary about the Biden administration's support of Israel. Zaathras (talk) 22:37, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
- @Esterau16 Please explain how the sentence implies that this is a "Biden creation"? It states that the amount of military aid sent by the Biden administration since the war started is a record, which is true, as you can read for yourself. WikiFouf (talk) 15:21, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
- Update: I changed the "announced" part since no one objected to that part. Would anyone like to add something about "record amount"? I'd be interested in an RfC to see where people stand on this WikiFouf (talk) 14:48, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
- I would like to ask why do you believe that it is necessary to indicate that he sent limited humanitarian aid to Gaza. Is there a consensus of sources that agree that the amount of humanitarian aid is limited? I agree that it probably is not enough, but it seems to me that calling it limited, especially without sources is pushing a POV. DeathTrain (talk) 02:53, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
- WikiFouf No reply?--DeathTrain (talk) 15:30, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
- Sorry, wasn't very active recently. US failure in getting humanitarian aid into Gaza has been a major news topic for the past year: see floating pier saga, air dropping, 30-day ultimatum, etc. All of these failures are related to Israel limiting aid into Gaza. In any case, the military aid sent to Israel far outweighs the humanitarian aid to Gaza, so putting them side by side in the same sentence without qualifiers creates false balance imo. WikiFouf (talk) 15:54, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
- While I agree that the humanitarian aid is probably insufficient, I still find it to be a violation of WP:NPOV to call it limited. DeathTrain (talk) 19:56, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
- It's literally limited, as I explained WikiFouf (talk) 08:06, 8 December 2024 (UTC)
- WikiFouf So once again, do you have any sources?--DeathTrain (talk) 14:31, 8 December 2024 (UTC)
- Don't have access to my computer at the moment, I can put sources in a couple of days. You can google the examples I've mentioned though, as I said it's been a big news topic WikiFouf (talk) 14:46, 8 December 2024 (UTC)
- @DeathTrain First, for some perspective, the Biden admin has sent $17.9 billion in military aid to Israel in a year, a historical record, and $1.2 billion in humanitarian aid to Palestinians in the same period. Mentioning both forms of aid side by side without qualifiers is dishonest IMHO. Now here's a variety of sources talking how the humanitarian aid has been limited:
- 11/24 : Why is only limited aid getting to Palestinians inside Gaza? (Associated Press)
- 11/24 : Israel Misses U.S. Deadline to ‘Surge’ Aid for Gaza, Humanitarian Groups Say (TIME)
- 10/24 : U.S. warns Israel it may restrict military aid if Gaza humanitarian situation doesn't improve (NBC News)
- 10/24 : UN says 'trickle' of aid reaches north Gaza, as Israel denies blocking access (BBC)
- 09/24 : Israel Deliberately Blocked Humanitarian Aid to Gaza, Two Government Bodies Concluded. Antony Blinken Rejected Them. (ProPublica)
- 07/24 : Why food is piling up on the edge of Gaza (Economist)
- 07/24 : U.S. military’s Gaza pier, built to carry humanitarian aid, will be dismantled after weather and security problems (PBS)
- 06/24 : U.S. Pier for Gaza Aid Is Failing, and Could Be Dismantled Early (New York Times)
- 05/24 : Gaza aid piles up in Egypt, US pier delivery falters (Reuters)
- 03/24 : Dropping aid from planes is expensive and inefficient. Why do it? (Washington Post)
- 02/24 : Why Isn't Desperately Needed Aid Reaching Palestinians in Gaza? (VOA)
- 02/24 : Why only a trickle of aid is getting into Gaza (CNN)
- 01/24 : US insists it’s trying to get aid into Gaza as UN warns millions ‘at risk of famine’ (Guardian)
- WikiFouf (talk) 13:48, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
- @WikiFouf: Most of these sources do not say that the Biden administration is sending a limited amount of aid to Gaza, but that limited aid is actually getting into Gaza, mainly due to obstruction by the Israeli government, right-wing protestors and weather. DeathTrain (talk) 16:36, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
- @DeathTrain I've been interpreting it in the literal sense, as in the amount of aid is literally (being) limited; not that it's a limited amount as in "a small amount". I do agree with you that the term is not ideal and can lead to confusion, but it's a hard situation to condense properly in just a couple of words. I'm really against putting "military" and "humanitarian aid" side by side just like that, for the reasons I explained. But I'm also not sure that the humanitarian aid saga is something worth dedicating more than a couple of words to. Suggestions? WikiFouf (talk) 20:14, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
- WikiFouf If you also find the term to be too contentious, we can just remove the entire clause about sending humanitarian aid to Palestine, at least until a consensus can be found. We can also try an RFC. DeathTrain (talk) 15:29, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
- @DeathTrain I'm fine with that, I'll remove it rn. I was already thinking an RFC could be useful to decide how to include the war in the lede in general, so I'm all for it WikiFouf (talk) 21:52, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
- WikiFouf If you also find the term to be too contentious, we can just remove the entire clause about sending humanitarian aid to Palestine, at least until a consensus can be found. We can also try an RFC. DeathTrain (talk) 15:29, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
- @DeathTrain I've been interpreting it in the literal sense, as in the amount of aid is literally (being) limited; not that it's a limited amount as in "a small amount". I do agree with you that the term is not ideal and can lead to confusion, but it's a hard situation to condense properly in just a couple of words. I'm really against putting "military" and "humanitarian aid" side by side just like that, for the reasons I explained. But I'm also not sure that the humanitarian aid saga is something worth dedicating more than a couple of words to. Suggestions? WikiFouf (talk) 20:14, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
- @WikiFouf: Most of these sources do not say that the Biden administration is sending a limited amount of aid to Gaza, but that limited aid is actually getting into Gaza, mainly due to obstruction by the Israeli government, right-wing protestors and weather. DeathTrain (talk) 16:36, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
- WikiFouf So once again, do you have any sources?--DeathTrain (talk) 14:31, 8 December 2024 (UTC)
- It's literally limited, as I explained WikiFouf (talk) 08:06, 8 December 2024 (UTC)
- While I agree that the humanitarian aid is probably insufficient, I still find it to be a violation of WP:NPOV to call it limited. DeathTrain (talk) 19:56, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
- Sorry, wasn't very active recently. US failure in getting humanitarian aid into Gaza has been a major news topic for the past year: see floating pier saga, air dropping, 30-day ultimatum, etc. All of these failures are related to Israel limiting aid into Gaza. In any case, the military aid sent to Israel far outweighs the humanitarian aid to Gaza, so putting them side by side in the same sentence without qualifiers creates false balance imo. WikiFouf (talk) 15:54, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
- WikiFouf No reply?--DeathTrain (talk) 15:30, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
- I would like to ask why do you believe that it is necessary to indicate that he sent limited humanitarian aid to Gaza. Is there a consensus of sources that agree that the amount of humanitarian aid is limited? I agree that it probably is not enough, but it seems to me that calling it limited, especially without sources is pushing a POV. DeathTrain (talk) 02:53, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
Biden believes he could have won re-election
In December 2024, as was widely reported, Biden told aides he regretted his decision to withdraw from the race; believing he would have won the election as his party's nominee.
This information is confirmed by multiple WP:RS and is obviously relevant to his notability as a politician. ZebulonMorn (talk) 15:36, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- But is it actually relevant, (assuming its true). Slatersteven (talk) 15:47, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- "Anonymous Sources Said" is a red flag for WP:BLP articles. We're not a tabloid. Zaathras (talk) 22:34, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Massie, Graeme (December 29, 2024). "Biden still regrets dropping out of 2024 race and believes he could have beaten Trump, says report". The Independent. Retrieved December 29, 2024.
- Pager, Tyler (December 28, 2024). "Joe Biden's lonely battle to sell his vision of American democracy". The Washington Post. Retrieved December 29, 2024.
- Tait, Robert (December 28, 2024). "Biden reportedly regrets ending re-election campaign and says he'd have defeated Trump". The Guardian. Retrieved December 29, 2024.
- Calder, Rich (December 28, 2024). "Biden regrets leaving presidential race, thinks he could've beaten Trump: report". New York Post. Retrieved December 29, 2024.
- Stimson, Brie (December 28, 2024). "Biden still regrets dropping out of 2024 presidential race, believes he could have beaten Trump: report". Fox News. Retrieved December 29, 2024.
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