| Revision as of 00:46, 18 March 2005 editFadix (talk | contribs)5,105 edits →FYI← Previous edit |
Latest revision as of 19:46, 20 December 2024 edit undoEvergreenFir (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Administrators129,283 editsm Reverted edit by 78.173.128.237 (talk) to last version by BuidheTag: Rollback |
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'''Archives'''<br> |
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''Please do not edit archived pages. If you want to react to a statement made in a archived discussion, please make a new header on THIS page.'' -- ]|] 09:20, Feb 23, 2005 (UTC)<br> |
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{{warning|1=Under the discretionary sanctions imposed at ], this article has been placed on a '''one-revert rule'''. Any editor who makes more than one revert in a 24-hour period will be ''blocked''. Please edit cooperatively, and seek consensus and compromise rather than edit-war. ] 22:17, 27 January 2008 (UTC)}} |
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|action1link=Misplaced Pages:Peer review/Armenian Genocide/archive1 |
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]:<br> |
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This section exist to answer Torque claims and is kept up to date (new materials posted as well as new answers). '''(VERY LONG PAGE)'''<br> |
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Hitler's quote and Holocaust, The rest of discussion, Strong bias, Events of Musa Mountain, Musa Mountain, Move Musa Dagh.<br> |
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|action2link=Talk:Armenian genocide/Archive 18#GA Review |
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Examining chiefly Turk-unsympathetic sources for the "Armenian Genocide" article, Response to Raffi Kojian, Continuing our Discussion, Reference and link titles, Is Raffi Responding Roughly?, Let us recap the foregoing discussion.<br> |
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Raffi, I thought you were "finished"!, 80.177.169.33, Do these people have scruples?, The original article is back, Armenian Genocide, The Vandal Speaks.<br> |
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Professional Denier Speaks, Denying is a Two-Way Street, Jewish lobby groups, Another Partisan at work, What does it mean when a nation recognizes the "genocide"?<br> |
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Need Link, The "Vigilante" has a name, History is written by winners.<br> |
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Disputing the Article, Fresh Overhaul, Fresh Overhaul -- Dialogue Continues. '''(LONG PAGE)'''<br> |
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|action3link=Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Armenian Genocide/archive1 |
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== FYI == |
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|action4date=2013-07-23 |
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::Definition of NPOV is that both views have equal grounds, thats the wikipedia way. See how ] was developed. I knew a lot regarding the matter so was my co-aurthor. We edited, and rechecked eachothers work, now the article was not contriverisal so its easy, you chose a very difficult and conriversial article to start your wiki career. --] ] ] 15:00, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC) |
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:::FYI: 2+2 can equal 5 in complex math. |
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::: I have commented out several sections of the article which in my opinion are not neutral, they will not be visible to regular people viewing th article untill the comment tags <nowiki><!-- --></nowiki> are removed. Please make them neutral and remove the tags. I have made several sections neutral for you. Again neutral means the article does not favor neither side while taking into account the views of all parties regarding the matter. Words like "most of scholars" are not neutral, there is no widely accepted concensus from a scientific(history) convention that you can put here. Even if that would be the case you would add that to the recent history category while keeping the article neutral. You may not like it, I may not like it, but thats how wikipedia runs. Do not remove my entries, instead try rewriting them in a neutral tone. --] ] ] 16:16, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC) |
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::: The book links belong to external link category as they are one sided view I believe. --] ] ] 22:06, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC) |
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|action5link=Misplaced Pages:Peer review/Armenian Genocide/archive3 |
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:::::Onlu by placing Justin McCarthys book at the section supporting the genocide theses, you just have shown that you have absolutly no clue of what you are talking about. McCarthy is the only major Western Historian claiming there was no genocide. Anyone ignoring this should even not debate.] 18:13, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC) |
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|action6link=Talk:Armenian genocide/GA1 |
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:Well, my bad. I'll recategorise it and tone down your language when you are talking to me. You cannot tell me to shut up. I am not telling you to shut up. I am telling you to "TALK" neutral. If I made an error in categorising things you put it to the "another view" actegory instead of hissing me. --] ] ] 22:06, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC) |
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|action7link=Talk:Armenian genocide/GA2 |
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::It wasn't just a mistake, you did that mistake more than once because you obviously ignore who McCarthy is. Can you be kind to present the books you have read about the topic please? ] 22:19, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC) |
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|action8date=2021-4-24 |
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:Dear sir. I am not knowlegable in the ] article enough to comment. I am merely folowing wikipedia NPOV article. I lack a hidden agenda. I dont purposly make mistakes. Now when you have someone who insist on reverting your edits without reading them its hard to focus. --] ] ] 22:32, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC) |
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|action8link=Talk:Armenian genocide/GA3 |
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::::You are not following Misplaced Pages policy, and if you have no knowledge of the subject, you can not introduce claims which are erronous, you are not neutralising the article, you are injecting in it claims you make yourself... Misplaced Pages present positions recognised and NOT your position, and that is what you are doing right now. And a last thing, you obviously do have an agenda, you live in Turkey(which libraries only contain one biased version of history), and do inject your biases in every Misplaced Pages articles which involve Turkey. And above all, you can't hide behind the claim that you are not Turk and that you only live in Turkey, unlike you, I do not hide my ethnicity because I believe that this is irrelevent and I support the position that one is credible for what he says and not based on the social construct called ethnicity he belongs to. The next time you would want to pass as a neutral individual, don't use the word "Armanian" repeatadly exposing that it is not only a mistake, but rather the Semitic(Arab/Hebrew) or Turkish pronounciation as in "Ermen" or "Arman." Now I commited a mistake, I should not have writen this I admit, but you provoked me by claiming you have no agenda which is obvious wrong.] 22:44, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC) |
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|action9date = 19:20, 16 June 2021 (UTC) |
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::You are constantly accusing me of a hidden agenda, accusing Turkey of a massacre and acusing a lot of people with things and claiming you are staying neutral. I dont hide my ethnicity. I have no reason to advertise it either. In english Armenian refers to the people living in ] proper spelling requires that and I am not a spelling genius. The word has 2 a's and one e. I am not Turkish. I lived in Turkey for quite some time due to my asignment. I am not making claims, I am rewording your claims. You cant quite see it as you arent reading, merely pasting/typing... Armenian Genocide did not happen as far as most of the world nations are concerned, since they have not recognised it. The Turks claim it wasn't a massacre. No mather HOW much stuff you throw at me that will not change the fact that Tuks claim otherwise. Not only that but you remove lots of productive edits (like spelling fixes) by other people. You declare that majority thinks this. While I am trying to keep this at EQUAL ground. Please GRAB a dictionary and READ ] "Neutral" means ALSO read ]. --] ] ] 22:56, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC) |
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|action9link = Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Armenian Genocide |
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::::::So you don't have any hidden agenda right? So, maybe you can all tell us why you only play this hijacking game in entries involving Turkey? And you are lying here, the Armenian genocide is not denied by most countries... not recognizing something by a government is not denying a genocide. Most US states have passed bills recognizing it, Canada did the same, France as well, Germany is thinking doing the same etc. and this even after the Turkish republic continual threats. It is as well a fact that most states have not passed bills recognizing the Shoah, according to you it would mean it did not happen. And only your above claims show that you are lying when you say you are neutral. You have admitted not knowing the subject, yet you claim it did not happen. How can one admit not knowing the subject at the same time having a position? This is called a preconceived belief. You can not participate in this article, because you have no knowledge of the event, and that you have a preconceived belief. |
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::::::As for the spelling, you did that continuously, not only with the word Armenia but as well with the word Armenians... I won't call this a mistake at all, a mistake is something that is done once, twice etc. and not repeated after it is shown to you... |
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::::::Again, NEUTRAL... presenting every sides. |
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|maindate=April 24, 2022 |
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{{Press|title=Sheriffs: Last Week Tonight with John Oliver |work=] |date=March 8, 2020}} |
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{{Contentious topics/talk notice|topic=a-a}} |
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{{Banner holder |collapsed=yes| 1= |
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::::::International Community(UN etc.) answer. Genocide |
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::::::Western Academia and even many Arabic and Iranian. Genocide |
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{{Top 25 Report|Apr 19 2015 (10th)}} |
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::::::Turkish human right organization. Genocide |
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::::::Some Turkish Academics. Genocide |
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::::::Armenians position. Genocide |
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;Other archives</center>], ], ]}} |
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::::::Even in Iran a bill was to be passed, prevented by Turkeys pressure, when did Iran ever considered passing such bill to recognize the Shoah? |
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== Infobox text in “Armenians in the Ottoman Empire” incorrect == |
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::::::There is this, against the Turkish government official version, there is no way that you will take those sides and present them with the Turkish government official version as equal, if you do that, you automatically give each opposing side to your claim less place than the official Turkish government version, and this is not neutral. |
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There is a miscount in the Infobox to the right of the “Armenians in the Ottoman Empire” subtitle. Another of the editors’ absurdities. Listed are five vilayets but then the text says that they represented “the six most heavily Armenian-populated Ottoman vilayets”. Sivas, the sixth one, is missing, dearest editors. And one falsification of an RS text in ref. 4. Nowhere on p. 279 does Kévorkian (]) say that these vilayets were “the six most heavily Armenian-populated Ottoman vilayets”. This is what the author says on p. 279, ad verbum: “According to the figures presented in the previous chapter, of the 2,925 towns and villages of the empire in which Armenians lived, no fewer than 2,084 were located on the Armenian high plateau, properly speaking – that is, in the vilayets of Erzerum, Van, Bitlis, Mamuret ul-Aziz, and Dyarbekir.” By the way, did I mention that Kévorkian uses “the Armenian high plateau” and not “Anatolia” in this particular clause? Cheers] (]) 18:32, 21 July 2024 (UTC)Davidian |
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::::::But this is not all, you make up things such as “Relocation camps,” that's completely ridiculous, you just made it up, you can not just invent expressions like this. A relocation camp does not make any sense... maybe it is time for you to check what a concentration camp mean. You have done many mistakes like this. And besides, you can not just shoot the 200,000-1,5 million, without indicating the sources... there are many such things that you have purposely deleted, and even some that are not denied by the official Turkish government diplomat publications, which mean that you just have made up things.] 23:17, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC) |
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::Relocation camp is the neutral word for "concentration" which assumes a genocide has happened. Its a more neutral word. If you have a better word edit accordingly. |
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:: I dispute the way you say it not what you say. I am not in the position to dispute what you say, not my major. You refuse to comprihend this. I am knowlegable to know that the issue is disputed. "hijacking game". Sorces for 1.5 million is your sorces. sorces for 200,000 is official Turkish data according to you. I did not delete them, I commented them out so you and other mods can review them and make them neutral. AS I explained before thats how we do things in wikipedia. You are claiming by making this article pro genocide you are being neutral. I think you should cut back on crack. --] ] ] 00:36, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC) |
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:Good points. The caption now includes Sivas, and the text more closely matches Kevorkian's village-based analysis. There is still a problem, since Kevorkian doesn't use the "Six Villayets" concept explicitly on the page cited. Also, if we want to introduce the "Six Villayets", just doing so in this caption is odd. ] (] / ]) 15:57, 23 July 2024 (UTC) |
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::::Concentration camp mean a camp where people are concentrated, I haven't seen any works even those not supporting my position which claim such a concentration did not happen. That was the official name given by officials, including German officials. It is neutral, while you introduce an expression that does not make sense at all. As for “Turkish data,” they vary a lot, ATAA, the largest Turkish American organization, has even an article claiming 700,000 Armenians died... the official Ottoman statistics are of 800,000 killed(not casualties, but KILLED)... you can not present this as if from 200,000 to 1.5 million died, without including those facts, because you are are doing is misleading people. Even Turkish historians like Fikret Adanir who do not entirely support the official Western version, recognize that it is probably that over a million may have perished. All major German official records vary from 1.2-1.5 million, this is from where the Armenian figures of 1.5 million comes from. You can NOT just claim that from 200,000 to 1.5 million perished without noting the sources. The reader has the right to know those informations, but you are purposely deleting them. If you want to delete the article as I repeated, I am ready to make compromises, but I am not ready to delete important informations, when the deletion will mislead the reader... and that is what you are after. Oh and, are you suggesting that I am on drug? Cut the crap please.] 00:46, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC) |
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::Thank you.] (]) 16:58, 23 July 2024 (UTC)Davidian |
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::During the ] in 1878, these vilayets were referred to as Six Armenian Vilayets, not Six Vilayets.] (]) 18:16, 23 July 2024 (UTC)Davidian |
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:::Yes, but the cluster is given so many names by the sources, and I'd prefer to use the title of the linked article. You might want to propose a move of the linked article if you think that "Six Armenian Vilayets" would be a better title. ] (] / ]) 19:47, 23 July 2024 (UTC) |
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::::Six Armenian Vilayets (or, more precisely, "the provinces inhabited by the Armenians") was the name originally figuring in the official documents of the 1878 ]. Turks, of course, labored to drop anything "Armenian" in their "best" traditions, and I'm sorry to say, the title of the linked article, ], follows this Turkish preference. Whereas one would think the title must have followed the original name version and not the Turkish distortion.] (]) 15:47, 24 July 2024 (UTC)Davidian |
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== “CUP regrouped as Turkish nationalists” is hypocrisy, the Turkish nationalists literally fought against the CUP… == |
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Yeah, someone care to explain? ] ]<sup>/</sup>] 08:31, 28 July 2024 (UTC) |
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:What you wrote is not really true and the sources that say so are decades out of date. This was Zürcher's big contribution and now most historians changed their view (] · ]) ''']''' 10:27, 28 July 2024 (UTC) |
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::The Istanbul Government is the CUP… which was allied to the Entente… which was fighting Turkish nationalists… ] ]<sup>/</sup>] 19:09, 28 July 2024 (UTC) |
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:::You've got it backwards. The CUP as an organization didn't outlast World War I, but most of the leading figures in the Turkish Nationalist movement were ex-CUP. If you doubt me, there are literally three sources cited in the article, I would recommend checking them out. (] · ]) ''']''' 20:01, 28 July 2024 (UTC) |
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== How to contact editors with extra privileges? == |
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I understand there are Misplaced Pages editors who have responsibilities or an ability to perform certain administrative actions, called “editors with extra privileges”, if I’m not mistaken? Could anyone visiting this Talk page (other than these two, for the love of God, (] · ]) ''']''' and ] (] / ])) help with how such editors can be contacted? The highhandedness of the authors and editors of this article, who refuse to implement RS-based edits containing significant viewpoints in violation of Misplaced Pages’s policies and who are involved in falsification of original source texts, needs to stop for the common good of the entire Misplaced Pages community. Thank you in advance.] (]) 17:25, 28 July 2024 (UTC)Davidian |
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:] (] · ]) ''']''' 18:02, 28 July 2024 (UTC) |
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::I said "other than this one (] · ]) ''']'''". Are you deaf and dumb?] (]) 18:15, 28 July 2024 (UTC)Davidian |
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:::You pinged us. ] (] / ]) 18:17, 28 July 2024 (UTC) |
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:As an uninvolved administrator... I'm not sure what sort of intervention you're looking for here. To be clear, administrators also do not have the final call on content decisions, as they are instead determined by a consensus of all editors. ] (] | ]) 18:20, 28 July 2024 (UTC) |
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::Thanks for this. What administrative actions do they perform then? Could you elaborate?] (]) 18:21, 28 July 2024 (UTC)Davidian |
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:::Uh, all sorts of stuff? You can see some information on the role at ]. ] (] | ]) 18:24, 28 July 2024 (UTC) |
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::::Thank you for responding to my inquiry. Have a nice day.] (]) 18:26, 28 July 2024 (UTC)Davidian |
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:::::I don't remember that there has ever been a consensus on this Talk page re: the number of Armenians killed, Armenian total population numbers, and the name of historical Armenian habitat. The author's and editors' highhandedness must therefore be reported and an administrative sanction imposed. Will look into ] for that. Thanks again.] (]) 18:39, 28 July 2024 (UTC)Davidian |
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==Note to self: new sources== |
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*{{cite book |last1=Akçam |first1=Taner |title=The Cambridge World History of Genocide: Volume 3: Genocide in the Contemporary Era, 1914–2020 |date=2023 |publisher=Cambridge University Press |isbn=978-1-108-76711-8 |pages=67–92 |chapter=The Armenian Genocide: An Overview}} |
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*{{cite journal |last1=Akçam |first1=Taner |title=Top-Down and Local Violence in the Late Ottoman Empire: The Role of Security Concerns and a Century of “Accumulated Experience” |journal=Journal of Genocide Research |date=2024 |volume=26 |issue=2 |pages=121–141 |doi=10.1080/14623528.2022.2127488}} |
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==Sayfo== |
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Should the introduction not include the ]? This was the systematic genocide of the Assyrian, Chaldean, and Syriac peoples, committed by the Ottoman Empire and their collaborators, the Kurdish tribes and other local Muslim Arab populations of the area. The intro should read something like this: |
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::{{Cquote|quote= The '''Armenian genocide'''{{efn|Also known by ].|name=names}}' was the systematic destruction of the ] and the ] peoples in the ] during ].''}} |
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Considering the fact that, based on various sources, the number of Assyrians alone (not including Chaldean) who fell victim to Ottoman/Turkish, Kurdish, and Arab persecutions between 1895 and 1925 was 800,000-1,100,000. Of these, between 150,000-400,000 (most reliable number is considered to be around 250,000 Assyrians) perished in the ], which occurred concurrently with and was closely related to the Armenian genocide (which in reality was more of a Christian genocide than just an Armenian genocide). Assyrian and Chaldean deaths comprised almost half of the genocide deaths in the "Armenian genocide." ] (]) 21:11, 5 December 2024 (UTC) |
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Sources: |
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*<small> * {{cite book |last=Donef |first=Racho |chapter=Sayfo and Denialism: A New Field of Activity for Agents of the Turkish Republic |title=Let Them Not Return: Sayfo – The Genocide Against the Assyrian, Syriac, and Chaldean Christians in the Ottoman Empire |year=2017 |publisher=] |pages=205–218 |isbn=978-1-78533-499-3}}</small> |
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*<small> {{cite book |last1=Gaunt |first1=David |last2=Atto |first2=Naures |last3=Barthoma |first3=Soner O. |chapter=Introduction: Contextualizing the Sayfo in the First World War |title=Let Them Not Return: Sayfo – The Genocide Against the Assyrian, Syriac, and Chaldean Christians in the Ottoman Empire |year=2017 |publisher=] |pages=1–32 |isbn=978-1-78533-499-3 |ref={{sfnref|Gaunt et al.|2017}}}}</small> |
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*<small>* {{cite book |last=Gaunt |first=David |title=A Question of Genocide: Armenians and Turks at the End of the Ottoman Empire |title-link=A Question of Genocide |date=2011 |publisher=] |isbn=978-0-19-978104-1 |pages=245–259 |chapter=The Ottoman Treatment of the Assyrians}}</small> |
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] (]) 21:11, 5 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:Which sources describe the Assyrian/Chaldean/Syriac genocides as part of the Armenian genocide? The Wiki article for ] distinguishes it from the Armenian genocide. ] ] 05:11, 20 December 2024 (UTC) |
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::It's complicated, but IMO most of the Sayfo cannot be considered simply a part or even a spill over of the Armenian genocide. (] · ]) ''']''' 06:20, 20 December 2024 (UTC) |
There is a miscount in the Infobox to the right of the “Armenians in the Ottoman Empire” subtitle. Another of the editors’ absurdities. Listed are five vilayets but then the text says that they represented “the six most heavily Armenian-populated Ottoman vilayets”. Sivas, the sixth one, is missing, dearest editors. And one falsification of an RS text in ref. 4. Nowhere on p. 279 does Kévorkian (The Armenian Genocide: A Complete History) say that these vilayets were “the six most heavily Armenian-populated Ottoman vilayets”. This is what the author says on p. 279, ad verbum: “According to the figures presented in the previous chapter, of the 2,925 towns and villages of the empire in which Armenians lived, no fewer than 2,084 were located on the Armenian high plateau, properly speaking – that is, in the vilayets of Erzerum, Van, Bitlis, Mamuret ul-Aziz, and Dyarbekir.” By the way, did I mention that Kévorkian uses “the Armenian high plateau” and not “Anatolia” in this particular clause? Cheers73.173.64.115 (talk) 18:32, 21 July 2024 (UTC)Davidian
I understand there are Misplaced Pages editors who have responsibilities or an ability to perform certain administrative actions, called “editors with extra privileges”, if I’m not mistaken? Could anyone visiting this Talk page (other than these two, for the love of God, (t · c) buidhe and Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs)) help with how such editors can be contacted? The highhandedness of the authors and editors of this article, who refuse to implement RS-based edits containing significant viewpoints in violation of Misplaced Pages’s policies and who are involved in falsification of original source texts, needs to stop for the common good of the entire Misplaced Pages community. Thank you in advance.73.173.64.115 (talk) 17:25, 28 July 2024 (UTC)Davidian
Considering the fact that, based on various sources, the number of Assyrians alone (not including Chaldean) who fell victim to Ottoman/Turkish, Kurdish, and Arab persecutions between 1895 and 1925 was 800,000-1,100,000. Of these, between 150,000-400,000 (most reliable number is considered to be around 250,000 Assyrians) perished in the Sayfo, which occurred concurrently with and was closely related to the Armenian genocide (which in reality was more of a Christian genocide than just an Armenian genocide). Assyrian and Chaldean deaths comprised almost half of the genocide deaths in the "Armenian genocide." FJZAJV (talk) 21:11, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
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