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{{On this day|date1=2005-02-18|oldid1=16335610|date2=2005-04-24|oldid2=12781036|date3=2006-02-18|oldid3=39811643|date4=2006-04-24|oldid4=49906107|date5=2007-02-18|oldid5=108981893|date6=2007-04-24|oldid6=125490612|date7=2008-02-18|oldid7=192307004|date8=2008-04-24|oldid8=207729745|date9=2009-02-18|oldid9=271579900|date10=2009-04-24|oldid10=285854519|date11=2010-02-18|oldid11=344752829|date12=2010-04-24|oldid12=358016170|date13=2011-02-18|oldid13=414513891|date14=2011-04-24|oldid14=425605379|date15=2012-04-24|oldid15=488815721|date16=2014-02-18|oldid16=595840804|date17=2014-04-24|oldid17=605409079|date18=2015-02-18|oldid18=647680422|date19=2015-04-24|oldid19=658952330|date20=2016-02-18|oldid20=705550913|date21=2016-04-24|oldid21=716530696|date22=2017-02-18|oldid22=766118352}} | {{On this day|date1=2005-02-18|oldid1=16335610|date2=2005-04-24|oldid2=12781036|date3=2006-02-18|oldid3=39811643|date4=2006-04-24|oldid4=49906107|date5=2007-02-18|oldid5=108981893|date6=2007-04-24|oldid6=125490612|date7=2008-02-18|oldid7=192307004|date8=2008-04-24|oldid8=207729745|date9=2009-02-18|oldid9=271579900|date10=2009-04-24|oldid10=285854519|date11=2010-02-18|oldid11=344752829|date12=2010-04-24|oldid12=358016170|date13=2011-02-18|oldid13=414513891|date14=2011-04-24|oldid14=425605379|date15=2012-04-24|oldid15=488815721|date16=2014-02-18|oldid16=595840804|date17=2014-04-24|oldid17=605409079|date18=2015-02-18|oldid18=647680422|date19=2015-04-24|oldid19=658952330|date20=2016-02-18|oldid20=705550913|date21=2016-04-24|oldid21=716530696|date22=2017-02-18|oldid22=766118352}} | ||
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== Ngram == | |||
FWIW, I was dorking around with learning some of the operators in google Ngrams and got , which, if I'm doing it right, seems to indicate: | |||
* Instances of the occurrence of the term "Gambia" in the phrases "Gambia River" or "River Gambia" are practically negligible for our purposes here (that is, people writing "Gambia" were seldom doing so to refer to the river. This seems odd to me but if I'm reading it right, it's true.) | |||
* When the Term "Gambia" was used, about half the time it is part of the phrase "T/the Gambia", and about half just "Gambia" not preceded by "T/the". | |||
== Requested move 20 August 2021 == | |||
* I would think that when the phrase "T/the Gambia" and the term "Gambia" without the article (and the river is not being referred to), it would mostly be referring to the name of the country or something deriving from the name of the country (e.g. "T/the Gambia International Airport" / "Gambia International Airport" and so forth. | |||
<div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"><!-- Template:RM top --> | |||
:''The following is a closed discussion of a ]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a ] after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. '' | |||
* When "Gambia Iron Company" and "Gambia Airport" etc are used, this supports "Gambia" as the name of country, while "T/the Gambia Iron Company" and "T/he Gambia Airport" supports "T/the Gambia" as the name of the country. | |||
The result of the move request was: '''not moved''' <small>(])</small> ''']''' (] • श्रीमान् गम्भीर) 09:42, 27 August 2021 (UTC) | |||
---- | |||
] → {{no redirect|Gambia}} – If "The Gambia" or "Gambia" are both common, then we should change it to "Gambia" to keep the name concise. In addition, this is the name used by many international organizations, such as the International Organization for Standardization. ] (]) 08:12, 20 August 2021 (UTC) | |||
*'''Oppose''' uses "The". ''']''' (]) 09:14, 20 August 2021 (UTC) | |||
:<small>Note: ] has been notified of this discussion. — ] <sup>(]</sup> <sup>])</sup> 16:13, 20 August 2021 (UTC)</small> | |||
:<small>Note: ] has been notified of this discussion. — ] <sup>(]</sup> <sup>])</sup> 16:13, 20 August 2021 (UTC)</small> | |||
*'''Oppose'''. I think the nom might have overstressed the commonness of "Gambia" (without the definite article) which is conspiciously ''not'' used by Gambian government websites (eg ) or foreign governments ( or ). It is also ''not'' used by the . I think there is quite a clear ] here. —'']'' (]) 18:33, 20 August 2021 (UTC) | |||
*'''Oppose'''. "the" is part of the name unlike other countries ] (] '''·''' ]) 02:32, 21 August 2021 (UTC) | |||
*'''Comment''': The same proposal has been discussed twice before (in 2008 and 2010) and not accepted. There are pointers to those discussions at the top of this Talk page. There have also been other discussions of the issue in addition to the formal RMs (see the Talk page archives). —⁠ ⁠] (]) 01:12, 22 August 2021 (UTC) | |||
*'''Oppose''', official name and there is the Gambia River.--<span style="font-family:Cursive">''']''']</span> 15:35, 22 August 2021 (UTC) | |||
*'''Support''' per ] and WP:CONSISTENCY, also ] ] ] 17:54, 22 August 2021 (UTC) | |||
*:Netherlands is just "", "the" isn't part of its name mind you though, the ISO name is just "" for The Gambia as well as "". ''']''' (]) 18:33, 22 August 2021 (UTC) | |||
*'''Oppose''' per above. The word is part of the common name. What will be proposed next, remove the same word from ]? ''']''' (]) (]) 01:10, 23 August 2021 (UTC) | |||
*'''Oppose''' The official and common name have the definite article. A better debate is whether we should use lower case 't' when writing in the article. The title and at the start of a sentence would be upper case so there is no difference, but when we use the term elsewhere are we using the official name (no IMO) or the common name (yes IMO). In any case, for this specific proposal I say 'oppose'. ] (]) 07:12, 23 August 2021 (UTC) | |||
* '''Oppose''' we've done this before, right? '''There are currently two countries that properly use the word "The" as part of the country name: ] and The Gambia.''' ] (power~enwiki, ], ]) 22:49, 24 August 2021 (UTC) | |||
::I highlighted your reply to save other editors from making a similar move request in the future, we had discussions about this over and over again which is a waste of time. ] (]) 00:13, 20 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
Sure Ngram is a somewhat blunt instrument. "...then take a left at the Gambia Iron Company building..." and | |||
<div style="padding-left: 1.6em; font-style: italic; border-top: 1px solid #a2a9b1; margin: 0.5em 0; padding-top: 0.5em">The discussion above is closed. <b style="color: #FF0000;">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.</div><!-- from ] --> | |||
"In The Gambia, you will find Gambia Linen, Gambia Coconuts, and Gambia Poptarts" will give false results. But I'm going to guess that these aren't a big part of the results (particularly the latter example, where the adjectival form would be used mostly ("In the Gambia, you will find Gambian linen..."), and in addition that these instances would probably cancel each other to some degree. Blunt instrument, but I'm going to assume plenty sharp enough for our purposes | |||
</div><div style="clear:both;"></div> | |||
So, the result gives about 50% "T/the Gambia" as the name of the country, and about 50% just "Gambia" as the name of the country. (Actually more like 60%+ for just "Gambia", but I'm being generous, considering all the false results we are probably getting.) | |||
== "the" or "The" again == | |||
The statehouse.gov.gm site is not working. The Ministry of Interior website https://moi.gov.gm/ uses The Gambia throughout. I would think whoever first wrote 'the' was not doing original research, but simply choosing. So discussing 'The' is not original research. Nor is it a matter of Misplaced Pages style, except inasmuch as we don't call it 'the The Gambia'.--] (]) 00:04, 11 February 2022 (UTC) | |||
Not suggesting a name change for the article, good Lord no. Shoot me rather than going thru all that again. However, I do think this gives me sufficient support to make these additions (show in bold): | |||
:This has been discussed before and there has been no consensus. I'd like to see a consensus because I think the mixed usage we have now looks sloppy. | |||
1) Top of the lede: "The Gambia, officially the Republic of The Gambia, '''sometimes shortened to just Gambia''', is a country in West Africa." | |||
:We should make the decision based on Misplaced Pages's rules. The first rule is: {{tq|"Generally, do not capitalize the word ''the'' in mid-sentence"}}, but there are exceptions. One exception is ]; we need to decide if this should be another exception. This comes from ]. | |||
2) In the Etymology section, start of second paragraph: "The Gambia is one of a small number of countries for which the definite article is commonly '''(although far from universally)''' used in its English-language name... (It is true that this is mentioned at the end of the section also, but it's worth also mentioning nearer the top, as it seems to be a noticed and even contested issue (if the Misplaced Pages is any indicator, which maybe). | |||
And I have done so. Revert as you all wish, but for that I think the argument would have to be something along the lines of "The percentage of people who refer to T/the Gambia without using the definite article is so negligible that informing the reader that these people even exist is unwarranted or misleading" which I doubt that that can be demonstrated (willing to be proven wrong). | |||
:Misplaced Pages capitalizes less than some sources and more than some sources. We make our decisions based on: {{tq|"Misplaced Pages does not capitalize something unless it is consistently capitalized in a substantial majority of independent, reliable sources."}} That's from ]. | |||
Also my wording may not be optimal, of course. Maybe "''often'' shortened to just Gambia" or "commonly used in its English-language name, ''but not always''... or whatever is better. ] (]) 17:18, 1 October 2023 (UTC) | |||
:So what we should do is go out and look at {{tq|independent, reliable sources}} to see what capitalization choice {{tq|"a substantial majority"}} of them make. Note that the meaning of ''independent'' as used in Misplaced Pages is defined at ] and ''reliable sources'' is defined at ]. One thing that means is that it's not terribly important what the government of the (The) Gambia does because we use sources that are independent of the government. | |||
:{{thumbs up|bigger|Those changes look helpful.}} — ] (]) 15:53, 2 October 2023 (UTC) | |||
:Those who do not use the article "the" before Gambia do so because their language does not do it for any plural. The entry says the Bahamas and the Gambia are the only countries that start with "the". And that is not true since all plurals do start with "the", like the USA, the Ukraine, the Maldives, etc. The Bahamas are a plural chain of islands. The Gambia is the plural lands under the flowage of the Gambia River. Actually "the Gambia" is short for "the Gambia River Basin". You would not say, "I want to swim in Gambia River". You would say, "I want to swim in the Gambia River". The ethnic Polish in the west of the Ukraine do not put "the" in front of any plurals, so that is where the confusion comes from. ] (]) 15:00, 12 November 2024 (UTC) | |||
== Countries Starting with "the" == | |||
:If I've misunderstood the rules, please point out my errors, but if I've got the rules right, let's discuss, collect evidence, and make a decision based on the rules. Thank you, ]|] 02:46, 11 February 2022 (UTC) | |||
The entry says the Bahamas and the Gambia are the only countries that start with "the". And that is not true since all plurals do start with "the", like the USA, the Ukraine, the Maldives, etc. The Bahamas are a plural chain of islands. The Gambia is the plural lands under the flowage of the Gambia River. Actually "the Gambia" is short for "the Gambia River Basin". You would not say, "I want to swim in Gambia River". You would say, "I want to swim in the Gambia River". ] (]) 14:55, 12 November 2024 (UTC) | |||
*"The Gambia" is the correct short name for the country. It has been used consistently by the United Nations in their reports and stats. "The Bahamas" is another one, these two countries are special cases which Misplaced Pages editors just have to remember. | |||
== Description of cuisine == | |||
:Links: | |||
:https://www.un.org/en/about-us/member-states#gotoG | |||
:https://www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/countries/gambia-the/ ] (]) 00:07, 20 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
Should the opening of the section on cuisine (]) say something like: | |||
== Largest metro area == | |||
{{quote |The Gambia doesn't actually have its own cuisine, the food that is to be found there stems mostly from neighbouring Senegal, whose cuisine is French-influenced.}} | |||
"Largest largest metropolitan area Serekunda" | |||
I don't know how to fix it, if i could i would, but i don't, this bothers me for no reason, pls fix. ] (]) 20:40, 28 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
or | |||
:{{fixed}} –] (]]) 20:42, 28 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
{{quote |The cuisine of the Gambia is heavily influenced by the culinary traditions of neighbouring Senegal, reflecting a mix of local ingredients and historical influences, including French colonial cuisine.}} | |||
== Requested move 20 December 2022 == | |||
{{anchor|Move request}} | |||
<div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"><!-- Template:RM top --> | |||
:''The following is a closed discussion of a ]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a ] after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. '' | |||
There's been a difference of opinion in recent edits. Please discuss here to resolve this issue. Thank you. ]|] 03:04, 16 November 2024 (UTC) | |||
The result of the move request was: '''not moved.''' It seems clear that there is no consensus to change the articles title at the moment, and there is no evidence provided behind common name claims. Further discussion may need to take place at ], being the guideline behind "The". <small>(])</small> ] - ] - ] 01:28, 28 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
---- | |||
:I´m from there and I know for a fact that the Gambia does not have its own cuisine. Its Senegalese cuisine they are preparing. ] (]) 14:30, 16 November 2024 (UTC) | |||
::I'm not from the Gambia or Senegal and it's possible I've never eaten food from those places, but I think I know what it means for a country to have a cuisine. The food of the Gambia is Gambian cuisine. I have no idea if the food in the Gambia is different from Senegalese food, but it is the food in the Gambia, and hence its cuisine. I don't think we could say that there is any country, any culture, or any family, which {{tq |"doesn't actually have its own cuisine"}}. ]|] 03:22, 17 November 2024 (UTC) | |||
*'''Comment''': These are all the country articles in which "the" is used commonly; ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], the ], the ], the ], the ], the ], the ] and the ] (notes: ] is not called "the Ukraine" anymore, ] is also called "the Vatican"). So two out of 21 articles use "the". ] (]) 01:24, 21 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
:::Exactly, you're not from there, we from those countries know what it's like there. By food of Gambia do you mean yassa? If so it's not Gambian but Senegalese, domoda? Also Senegalese. The Gambia doesn't have any dishes, Senegalese cuisine is prepared there, yassa, for example, is prepared in the Gambia, Mauritania, Guinea, even Ivory Coast and many other countries, so it can't be Gambian cuisine, otherwise you could have said it's Ivorian cuisine as well, because Senegalese cuisine is also prepared there. You are confusing being neighbouring and the respective country's own cuisine. The Gambia and Senegal are neighbours but the cuisine is Senegalese. Yassa, for example, is from Casamance, a town in Senegal, it's not Gambian, Domoda is from Tambacounda, also a town in Senegal. ] (]) 07:42, 17 November 2024 (UTC) | |||
*'''Oppose''' per previous recent discussion. ] (]) 10:46, 20 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
:I can't say the latter version is perfect, but it's miles better than the former. It's obviously inappropriate for us to claim—without any sources, especially—that a country has no cuisine of its own. It would be better to have no cuisine section than to make such a claim. ] (] / ]) 03:56, 17 November 2024 (UTC) | |||
* '''Question''' What was missed in the previous RMs? ] (]) 10:58, 20 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
::I´m sorry but saying the latter version is perfect is intellectual dishonesty. You simply cannot attribute the dishes of another country to the Gambia just because you want to be its cuisine. I´m from there therefore I should know, so we will either keep the version I wrote, or the cuisine section will be deleted as you suggest. The dishes that are supposed to be Gambian are not, they are Senegalese. ] (]) 07:43, 17 November 2024 (UTC) | |||
*:No one is answering this. ] (]) 20:53, 21 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
:::To be clear, I'm ''not'' saying the latter version is perfect! I do prefer the status quo ante over total removal. It seems you're the only proponent of your version, and I think it's very unlikely that I'll change my mind on it. If there were multiple high-quality sources saying explicitly "there is no Gambian cuisine", I suppose I'd reconsider. Otherwise, I don't have much to add. Please don't revert back to your version unless it's clear that others support it. ] (] / ]) 18:26, 17 November 2024 (UTC) | |||
*'''Support'''. ]. ] (]) 12:56, 20 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
::::The others have admitted that they don't know but I do. Yassa and Domoda are Senegalese dishes so it would be more than appropriate to put them on the Senegal page than Gambia because it doesn't belong here. Also refrain from telling me what I may or may not edit, just because you moderate this site does not mean you are abusing those rights. If you and the others claim things about a country that are completely false then that will be corrected. I´m from there and know what I´m talking about, why would you forbid me to write about something I know about at the expense of you, who know nothing. ] (]) 02:08, 23 November 2024 (UTC) | |||
*:'''Comment:''' you mention ], but it endorses {{tq|The Gambia}}. I'm confused.] (]) 23:16, 20 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
:The cuisine of Gambia is the food cooked there now. It will be shared across borders and cultures, as all cuisines are. ] (]) 14:12, 17 November 2024 (UTC) | |||
* '''Strong Oppose and Snowball Close''' As per the highlighted comment made by ] in the ] above. As repeated by many other editors, ] and ] are two special cases which we just have to remember that the definite article '''"The" actually forms a part of the proper country name'''. They are not the same as the Netherlands, the Philippines or the Comoros. | |||
::I said the same yassa is prepared in many countries outside of Senegal, these are Senegalese dishes not Gambian. If yassa is Gambian for the sole reason of being prepared there so it yassa the food of Ivory Coast, Mali and so on because it is prepared there as well and of course its not. Stop deflecting. ] (]) 15:06, 17 November 2024 (UTC) | |||
: As an interesting side note, some countries have deliberately avoided using the definite article "the" despite having a plural name (e.g. ], ], ]), again, these are special cases, we just have to remember them. As for the reasons, yes, all of them have reasons, mostly to do with distinguishing itself with another geographical or political entity, or distancing itself from its colonial past etc. We don't need to worry about their reasons, if in doubt, just refer to their '''official name''', if it has "the/The" as a part of their official name, then it will always have "the/The". | |||
:::{{ping |Pendere1}} Perhaps you have a different understanding of the meaning of the word ''cuisine'' than I do. There is nothing about a cuisine which says it can't originate in or share things with other countries. It does mean that there is something unique about that place, so every place has a unique cuisine, even if it is made up of dishes from other places.{{pb}}There is no doubt in my mind that you know more about Gambian food than I, but I think you are misunderstanding what it means to say that a place "doesn't actually have its own cuisine". Thank you, ]|] 02:46, 23 November 2024 (UTC) | |||
: Links: | |||
: https://www.un.org/en/about-us/member-states#gotoG | |||
: https://www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/countries/gambia-the/ | |||
: ] (]) 13:13, 20 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
* '''Oppose''': Misplaced Pages's general rule is at ], but there are exceptions for good reasons. This is one of them. I haven't looked today, but last time this came up the vast majority of sources referred to the country as either ''the Gambia'' or ''The Gambia''. Misplaced Pages's capitalization of the name is unfortunately mixed, but use of ''the'' is and should be consistent. ]|] 15:41, 20 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
* '''Oppose'''. This is the long-standing name. No one calls it "Gambia". ] (]) 15:45, 20 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
*:Nobody calls the Netherlands "]" but the article is called that. ] (]) 01:10, 21 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
::: It's not comparable. Let me put this way: no one with any vague familiarity with Africa or a geography book writes it "Gambia". It is always "The Gambia". It's a proper term. This proposal is beyond absurd. Please forgive my presumption, but I have a feeling this is probably the first time you've heard of this country. I'd suggest you look around a bit. ] (]) 10:05, 21 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
:::: {{ping|Walrasiad}} I've heard of every country and know a fair bit about geography. Yes, I know in a sentence you'd say "the Gambia" (i.e "I live in the Gambia.", I'm Australian but I'm just giving an example here), but you also say "the Philippines" in a sentence (e.g "I live in the Philippines.", again I live in Australia so this is just an example) yet the article is called ]. ] (]) 11:21, 21 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
::::: And that's where your error begins. You imagine this is a matter of speech. It is completely unrelated to that. It is the actual proper name of the place. It is written "The Gambia" on maps, articles, books, documents, even datasets and indexes (which need alphabetical ordering) enter it as "Gambia, The". There is no comparison to other countries. Except to "Bahamas, The". It may sound bizarre to your ears - and it is admittedly very unusual. That's why these are exceptions - and everyone knows they are. A simple online search should make that clear. ] (]) 16:25, 21 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
::The statement that "No one calls it 'Gambia'." is simply false. Lots of sources call it "Gambia" without "he". This has been previously discussed. Some of the sources cited in the article do that in their headlines. Some publications and websites even do it in the names of their publications/websites. If I recall correctly, it is especially common in the context of sports. — ] (]) 17:59, 21 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
::: I can't account for mistakes flying around the internet from ignorant writers, poor webmasters or graphic designers, who don't know better, or those who need to abbreviate it further for convenience. That's why I predicated in anyone who is actually familiar with Africa or geography. Published works are your best bet. ] (]) 18:32, 21 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
:::: Some of those sources are based in Africa, so you can't really say they have no familiarity with Africa or geography. You can insult people and say that what they do is a mistake driven by ignorance because you know what is correct, but that is not the only possible explanation. If you do a ] for exact phrases like "in Gambia" and "for Gambia", you'll find that many of the most well respected sources include such phrases. — ] (]) 20:07, 21 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
::::: Nope. Find only mistakes or abbreviations or embedded in other phrases (e.g. "for Gambia Airways"). But it heartens me that you finally did a search. I am sure you now realize "The Gambia" is overwhelmingly and relentlessly used everywhere. ] (]) 23:56, 21 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
*'''Support''' per ] and ]. This country is more commonly referenced without the definite article. ] (]) 15:53, 20 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
*:@] not convinced your assertion is correct. Please provide some evidence. ] (]) 19:21, 20 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
*:'''Comment:''' you mention ], but it endorses {{tq|The Gambia}}. I'm confused.] (]) 23:16, 20 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
*'''Oppose''' as mentioned before "The" is part of the country's name unlike Netherlands per Britannica. Its "long" official descriptive name is "Republic of The Gambia" but its official "short" and formal name is "The Gambia". ''']''' (]) 20:58, 20 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
*'''Support''', I don't think having the "The" is valuable. | |||
:] (]) 22:41, 20 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
*'''Oppose'''{{snd}}this is completely and utterly wrong and a waste of our time to discuss it. The country's name is The Gambia so what people think is valuable or useful is wholly irrelevant because they don't get to rename countries on a whim. The comparison with other countries is completely meaningless, because it is a different country. We no longer say The Lebanon because that is not its name. We do say The Gambia because that is its name. It really is that simple. Best to all ] (]) 23:10, 20 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
*:But Lebanon never used (as far as I know) a definitive article (Ukraine used to be "the Ukraine" though). However, the articles about countries that do use definitive articles do not use it in the title (e.g ] redirects to ], ] to ], ] to ], ] to ], ] to ], ] to ], ] to ], etc). ] (]) 01:12, 21 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
*::You are wrong. People (the old generations) used to call Lebanon "the Lebanon" and Ukraine "the Ukraine", but they are not the official English translation of these country names and people have now stopped using them. | |||
*::Solomon Islands is another special case which we just have to remember. "]" (without "the") means the island country in the South Pacific, "]" means the archipelago which contains both the country of Solomon Islands and ] (currently an autonomous region of Papua New Guinea, scheduled to become an independent sovereign state in 2027). ] (]) 03:36, 21 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
*::] OK bye. ] (]) 08:50, 21 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
*:::{{ping|DisillusionedBitterAndKnackered}} interesting, didn't know about that, always good to learn something new. Anyway, {{ping|Vic Park}}, "the Solomon Islands" refers to both the country and the archipelago, "Solomon Islands" is never used by people who speak proper English. Trust me, I live in Australia which is near the Solomon Islands. Australian media uses the definitive article in sentences. For example, in the first sentence is (other than the image caption) "Children ran and traffic jammed as a magnitude-7.0 earthquake rocked '''the''' Solomon Islands capital of Honiara on Tuesday, while a major aftershock struck nearby 30 minutes later." ] (]) 11:28, 21 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
*::::The above quoted sentence from ABC News is being parsed incorrectly. In that case, the ''the'' refers to the ''capital''; it is not being used as part of the name of the place. That phrase can be shortened to "a magnitude-7.0 earthquake rocked '''the''' capital" or "a magnitude-7.0 earthquake rocked '''the''' capital city Honiara", dropping "Solomon Islands" for an in-context phrasing while retaining ''the''. In that sentence, ''Solomon Islands'' is just identifying which country Honiara is the capital of. — ] (]) 17:59, 21 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
:::::{{ping|BarrelProof}} then perhaps I should point you to several other news sources that use the definitive article (e.g is titled "What's Happening with China and '''the''' Solomon Islands" and the first sentence of the video's description is "Leaked details from a security agreement between China and '''the''' Solomon Islands have raised questions from the US, Australia, New Zealand, and other regional states in Oceania about China's possible military ambitions in the South Pacific." ] (]) 20:06, 21 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
::::::I understand. I was just saying that particular example wasn't on-target. — ] (]) 20:10, 21 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
:::::Apparently, I am your fellow countryman. For people who don't know the difference, they use "the Solomon Islands" for both, including some journalists. For people who do know the rules, we follow the creditable sources and only use "Solomon Islands" for the country. | |||
:::::Quoted from the Australian ]'s Solomon Islands page: | |||
:::::'''"Australia has a deep and longstanding relationship with Solomon Islands."''' | |||
:::::Link: https://www.dfat.gov.au/geo/solomon-islands/solomon-islands-country-brief ] (]) 04:38, 22 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
::::::{{ping|Vic Park}} media uses the definitive article because saying "Solomon Islands is a country" sounds broken compared to "The Solomon Islands is a country". ] (]) 06:38, 22 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
:::::::Not really, if you treat "Solomon Islands" as a political entity instead of a geographical feature, then it is okay to drop the definite article. It is not broken English (articles are unnecessary before singular proper nouns), at least not according to the Australian Government, they've used "Solomon Islands" consistently throughout their reports. I have not seen a single case where they used "the Solomon Islands" to describe the country. | |||
:::::::Examples: | |||
:::::::'''1. Solomon Islands is an archipelagic state situated in the south-west Pacific Ocean, approximately 2,000 kms to the northeast of Australia.''' | |||
:::::::'''2. The UK granted Solomon Islands internal self-government in 1976, followed by independence on 7 July 1978.''' | |||
:::::::'''3. Solomon Islands is one of the Pacific's poorest countries, with high costs of service delivery due to a small and geographically dispersed population.''' ] (]) 14:37, 22 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
*'''Support''' per ]. The definite article is more often than not lowercased in running text. Saying "it's part of the name" is contrary to ]. -- ] (]) 13:34, 21 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
*:Why does the fact that it's in lowercase matter? The fact that it's there is surely enough to infer commonality? No one would suggest renaming the article '''the Gambia'''. ] (]) 20:12, 21 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
*::It matters because ] says "{{tq|If the definite or indefinite article would be capitalized in running text, then include it at the beginning of the Misplaced Pages article name. '''''Otherwise, do not''''' (except in the case of musical groups; see below).}}" — ] (]) 20:16, 21 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
:::Good point Necrothep. We should therefore look at what the significant majority of independent reliable secondary sources use. Govt publications are strictly primary, so let's ignore them, Gambian and others. I suggest a simple google count test using scholar or books. If there is no significant majority then we should achieve a consensus guideline. ] (]) 20:18, 21 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
::::Hang on @] and @]. ] '''actually lists''' ] as a case where 'the' should be included! ] (]) 20:51, 21 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
:::::] does not say that, please read it again more carefully. ] (]) 21:19, 21 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
::::::It's under a big heading that says 'When definite and indefinite articles should be used'. ] (]) 21:34, 21 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
:::::If this move is supported, perhaps the Gambia item should be removed from that list of special exceptions. I was just saying that's why the capitalization matters to this discussion. — ] (]) 21:33, 21 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
::::::I think that the policy would need to be changed '''before''' the article title. ] (]) 21:35, 21 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
:::::::Saying that with no experience in writing Misplaced Pages policy though :). ] (]) 21:36, 21 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
::::::Also, the wording that prefixes that list seems to leave some room for interpretation: it just says this is a case where {{"'}}The' is sometimes used", not that it should always (or even usually) be used. — ] (]) 21:43, 21 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
:::::::I think you are interpreting that ''very'' loosely. ] (]) 08:27, 22 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
YorkshireExpat, I suggest once again that you read the policy more carefully. BarrrelProof has pointed out just one example where your assetion is incorrect. Your quoting the heading and saying it proves your point simply shows that you are not understanding the heading. Where does it say articles should be used, capitalised or not. Please check what ] means and consider that is what you are using. ] (]) 07:16, 22 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
:'''Note''': I put a notification about this RM discussion at ]. — ] (]) 02:57, 23 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
*'''Oppose''', per previous discussions. ] (]) 21:52, 21 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
*'''Oppose''' The name has an article whether it's the official name or the common name. ] (]) 07:24, 22 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
*'''Oppose''' and place moratorium on future RMs. If a move request is made, it should be on valid grounds; arguing consistency between countries is irrelevant when each country is its own entity and not beholden to how other countries title themselves. ] (]) 23:23, 24 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
<div style="padding-left: 1.6em; font-style: italic; border-top: 1px solid #a2a9b1; margin: 0.5em 0; padding-top: 0.5em">The discussion above is closed. <b style="color: #FF0000;">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.</div><!-- from ] --> | |||
</div><div style="clear:both;"></div> | |||
== Redundancy in "Etymology" section == | |||
== RfC about proper usage of this country's name == | |||
The "Etymology" section would be a lot cleaner and easier to read without so many redundancies. Most of the information in the section is repeated elsewhere in the same section with only minor differences in wording. For example, the information about the country being named after the river is stated four times throughout different paragraphs. I suspect that contributors have been simply appending their research to the section without taking the time to make sure their contributions are properly integrated with the existent content. ] (]) 01:40, 13 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
Given a lack of consensus of prior RfCs on the issue of names for this country in article text, I have initiated ] to settle this manner rigorously. –] (]]) 05:41, 31 December 2022 (UTC) |
Latest revision as of 12:26, 13 December 2024
This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the The Gambia article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
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This article is written in British English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, travelled, centre, defence, artefact, analyse) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
A news item involving The Gambia was featured on Misplaced Pages's Main Page in the In the news section on 5 October 2013. |
A fact from this article was featured on Misplaced Pages's Main Page in the On this day section on 22 dates. February 18, 2005, April 24, 2005, February 18, 2006, April 24, 2006, February 18, 2007, April 24, 2007, February 18, 2008, April 24, 2008, February 18, 2009, April 24, 2009, February 18, 2010, April 24, 2010, February 18, 2011, April 24, 2011, April 24, 2012, February 18, 2014, April 24, 2014, February 18, 2015, April 24, 2015, February 18, 2016, April 24, 2016, and February 18, 2017 |
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This article has previously been nominated to be moved. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination.
Discussions:
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Ngram
FWIW, I was dorking around with learning some of the operators in google Ngrams and got this result, which, if I'm doing it right, seems to indicate:
- Instances of the occurrence of the term "Gambia" in the phrases "Gambia River" or "River Gambia" are practically negligible for our purposes here (that is, people writing "Gambia" were seldom doing so to refer to the river. This seems odd to me but if I'm reading it right, it's true.)
- When the Term "Gambia" was used, about half the time it is part of the phrase "T/the Gambia", and about half just "Gambia" not preceded by "T/the".
- I would think that when the phrase "T/the Gambia" and the term "Gambia" without the article (and the river is not being referred to), it would mostly be referring to the name of the country or something deriving from the name of the country (e.g. "T/the Gambia International Airport" / "Gambia International Airport" and so forth.
- When "Gambia Iron Company" and "Gambia Airport" etc are used, this supports "Gambia" as the name of country, while "T/the Gambia Iron Company" and "T/he Gambia Airport" supports "T/the Gambia" as the name of the country.
Sure Ngram is a somewhat blunt instrument. "...then take a left at the Gambia Iron Company building..." and "In The Gambia, you will find Gambia Linen, Gambia Coconuts, and Gambia Poptarts" will give false results. But I'm going to guess that these aren't a big part of the results (particularly the latter example, where the adjectival form would be used mostly ("In the Gambia, you will find Gambian linen..."), and in addition that these instances would probably cancel each other to some degree. Blunt instrument, but I'm going to assume plenty sharp enough for our purposes
So, the result gives about 50% "T/the Gambia" as the name of the country, and about 50% just "Gambia" as the name of the country. (Actually more like 60%+ for just "Gambia", but I'm being generous, considering all the false results we are probably getting.)
Not suggesting a name change for the article, good Lord no. Shoot me rather than going thru all that again. However, I do think this gives me sufficient support to make these additions (show in bold):
1) Top of the lede: "The Gambia, officially the Republic of The Gambia, sometimes shortened to just Gambia, is a country in West Africa."
2) In the Etymology section, start of second paragraph: "The Gambia is one of a small number of countries for which the definite article is commonly (although far from universally) used in its English-language name... (It is true that this is mentioned at the end of the section also, but it's worth also mentioning nearer the top, as it seems to be a noticed and even contested issue (if the Misplaced Pages is any indicator, which maybe).
And I have done so. Revert as you all wish, but for that I think the argument would have to be something along the lines of "The percentage of people who refer to T/the Gambia without using the definite article is so negligible that informing the reader that these people even exist is unwarranted or misleading" which I doubt that that can be demonstrated (willing to be proven wrong).
Also my wording may not be optimal, of course. Maybe "often shortened to just Gambia" or "commonly used in its English-language name, but not always... or whatever is better. Herostratus (talk) 17:18, 1 October 2023 (UTC)
- Those changes look helpful. — BarrelProof (talk) 15:53, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
- Those who do not use the article "the" before Gambia do so because their language does not do it for any plural. The entry says the Bahamas and the Gambia are the only countries that start with "the". And that is not true since all plurals do start with "the", like the USA, the Ukraine, the Maldives, etc. The Bahamas are a plural chain of islands. The Gambia is the plural lands under the flowage of the Gambia River. Actually "the Gambia" is short for "the Gambia River Basin". You would not say, "I want to swim in Gambia River". You would say, "I want to swim in the Gambia River". The ethnic Polish in the west of the Ukraine do not put "the" in front of any plurals, so that is where the confusion comes from. 71.228.106.51 (talk) 15:00, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
Countries Starting with "the"
The entry says the Bahamas and the Gambia are the only countries that start with "the". And that is not true since all plurals do start with "the", like the USA, the Ukraine, the Maldives, etc. The Bahamas are a plural chain of islands. The Gambia is the plural lands under the flowage of the Gambia River. Actually "the Gambia" is short for "the Gambia River Basin". You would not say, "I want to swim in Gambia River". You would say, "I want to swim in the Gambia River". 71.228.106.51 (talk) 14:55, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
Description of cuisine
Should the opening of the section on cuisine (The Gambia#Cuisine) say something like:
The Gambia doesn't actually have its own cuisine, the food that is to be found there stems mostly from neighbouring Senegal, whose cuisine is French-influenced.
or
The cuisine of the Gambia is heavily influenced by the culinary traditions of neighbouring Senegal, reflecting a mix of local ingredients and historical influences, including French colonial cuisine.
There's been a difference of opinion in recent edits. Please discuss here to resolve this issue. Thank you. SchreiberBike | ⌨ 03:04, 16 November 2024 (UTC)
- I´m from there and I know for a fact that the Gambia does not have its own cuisine. Its Senegalese cuisine they are preparing. Pendere1 (talk) 14:30, 16 November 2024 (UTC)
- I'm not from the Gambia or Senegal and it's possible I've never eaten food from those places, but I think I know what it means for a country to have a cuisine. The food of the Gambia is Gambian cuisine. I have no idea if the food in the Gambia is different from Senegalese food, but it is the food in the Gambia, and hence its cuisine. I don't think we could say that there is any country, any culture, or any family, which
"doesn't actually have its own cuisine"
. SchreiberBike | ⌨ 03:22, 17 November 2024 (UTC)- Exactly, you're not from there, we from those countries know what it's like there. By food of Gambia do you mean yassa? If so it's not Gambian but Senegalese, domoda? Also Senegalese. The Gambia doesn't have any dishes, Senegalese cuisine is prepared there, yassa, for example, is prepared in the Gambia, Mauritania, Guinea, even Ivory Coast and many other countries, so it can't be Gambian cuisine, otherwise you could have said it's Ivorian cuisine as well, because Senegalese cuisine is also prepared there. You are confusing being neighbouring and the respective country's own cuisine. The Gambia and Senegal are neighbours but the cuisine is Senegalese. Yassa, for example, is from Casamance, a town in Senegal, it's not Gambian, Domoda is from Tambacounda, also a town in Senegal. Pendere1 (talk) 07:42, 17 November 2024 (UTC)
- I'm not from the Gambia or Senegal and it's possible I've never eaten food from those places, but I think I know what it means for a country to have a cuisine. The food of the Gambia is Gambian cuisine. I have no idea if the food in the Gambia is different from Senegalese food, but it is the food in the Gambia, and hence its cuisine. I don't think we could say that there is any country, any culture, or any family, which
- I can't say the latter version is perfect, but it's miles better than the former. It's obviously inappropriate for us to claim—without any sources, especially—that a country has no cuisine of its own. It would be better to have no cuisine section than to make such a claim. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 03:56, 17 November 2024 (UTC)
- I´m sorry but saying the latter version is perfect is intellectual dishonesty. You simply cannot attribute the dishes of another country to the Gambia just because you want to be its cuisine. I´m from there therefore I should know, so we will either keep the version I wrote, or the cuisine section will be deleted as you suggest. The dishes that are supposed to be Gambian are not, they are Senegalese. Pendere1 (talk) 07:43, 17 November 2024 (UTC)
- To be clear, I'm not saying the latter version is perfect! I do prefer the status quo ante over total removal. It seems you're the only proponent of your version, and I think it's very unlikely that I'll change my mind on it. If there were multiple high-quality sources saying explicitly "there is no Gambian cuisine", I suppose I'd reconsider. Otherwise, I don't have much to add. Please don't revert back to your version unless it's clear that others support it. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 18:26, 17 November 2024 (UTC)
- The others have admitted that they don't know but I do. Yassa and Domoda are Senegalese dishes so it would be more than appropriate to put them on the Senegal page than Gambia because it doesn't belong here. Also refrain from telling me what I may or may not edit, just because you moderate this site does not mean you are abusing those rights. If you and the others claim things about a country that are completely false then that will be corrected. I´m from there and know what I´m talking about, why would you forbid me to write about something I know about at the expense of you, who know nothing. Pendere1 (talk) 02:08, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
- To be clear, I'm not saying the latter version is perfect! I do prefer the status quo ante over total removal. It seems you're the only proponent of your version, and I think it's very unlikely that I'll change my mind on it. If there were multiple high-quality sources saying explicitly "there is no Gambian cuisine", I suppose I'd reconsider. Otherwise, I don't have much to add. Please don't revert back to your version unless it's clear that others support it. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 18:26, 17 November 2024 (UTC)
- I´m sorry but saying the latter version is perfect is intellectual dishonesty. You simply cannot attribute the dishes of another country to the Gambia just because you want to be its cuisine. I´m from there therefore I should know, so we will either keep the version I wrote, or the cuisine section will be deleted as you suggest. The dishes that are supposed to be Gambian are not, they are Senegalese. Pendere1 (talk) 07:43, 17 November 2024 (UTC)
- The cuisine of Gambia is the food cooked there now. It will be shared across borders and cultures, as all cuisines are. CMD (talk) 14:12, 17 November 2024 (UTC)
- I said the same yassa is prepared in many countries outside of Senegal, these are Senegalese dishes not Gambian. If yassa is Gambian for the sole reason of being prepared there so it yassa the food of Ivory Coast, Mali and so on because it is prepared there as well and of course its not. Stop deflecting. Pendere1 (talk) 15:06, 17 November 2024 (UTC)
- @Pendere1: Perhaps you have a different understanding of the meaning of the word cuisine than I do. There is nothing about a cuisine which says it can't originate in or share things with other countries. It does mean that there is something unique about that place, so every place has a unique cuisine, even if it is made up of dishes from other places.There is no doubt in my mind that you know more about Gambian food than I, but I think you are misunderstanding what it means to say that a place "doesn't actually have its own cuisine". Thank you, SchreiberBike | ⌨ 02:46, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
- I said the same yassa is prepared in many countries outside of Senegal, these are Senegalese dishes not Gambian. If yassa is Gambian for the sole reason of being prepared there so it yassa the food of Ivory Coast, Mali and so on because it is prepared there as well and of course its not. Stop deflecting. Pendere1 (talk) 15:06, 17 November 2024 (UTC)
Redundancy in "Etymology" section
The "Etymology" section would be a lot cleaner and easier to read without so many redundancies. Most of the information in the section is repeated elsewhere in the same section with only minor differences in wording. For example, the information about the country being named after the river is stated four times throughout different paragraphs. I suspect that contributors have been simply appending their research to the section without taking the time to make sure their contributions are properly integrated with the existent content. Nom de vileplume (talk) 01:40, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
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