| Revision as of 04:55, 26 March 2023 editBeautiful Rosie (talk | contribs)312 edits →Beautiful Rosie: ReplyTags: Mobile edit Mobile web edit Reply← Previous edit |
Latest revision as of 00:07, 10 November 2024 edit undoTom.Reding (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Page movers, Template editors3,861,616 editsm blpo=yes + blp=no/null → blp=other; cleanupTag: AWB |
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== Move discussion in progress == |
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== request edit == |
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There is a move discussion in progress on ] which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. <!-- Talk:Shirley Banfield (cricketer)#Requested move 22 November 2022 crosspost --> —] 20:35, 22 November 2022 (UTC) |
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== Requested move 24 November 2022 == |
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<div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"><!-- Template:RM top --> |
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:''The following is a closed discussion of a ]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a ] after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. '' |
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The result of the move request was: '''no consensus.''' —usernamekiran ] 15:03, 19 December 2022 (UTC) |
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---- |
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] → {{no redirect|Disappearance of Don Banfield}} – While there was a murder conviction, the conviction was quashed, and I'm not really sure that this is wise to keep framed as a murder from a ] perspective. There were certainly suspicious circumstances surrounding his death, including the two people initially convicted of murder admitting to fraud that's related to the disappearance and the lawyer admitting that it was likely that either Shirley or Lynette killed Don, but I don't like the phrase "murder" absent a valid conviction. ] might go against this (and is reasonable, given that this is how it was widely covered), but I think that the ] (namely precision) would support this move. — <span style="background: linear-gradient(#990000,#660000)">] <sub>]</sub></span> 14:48, 24 November 2022 (UTC)<small>— '''''Relisting.''''' —usernamekiran ] 16:57, 3 December 2022 (UTC)</small> <small>— '''''Relisting.''''' — ] <sup>(]</sup> <sup>])</sup> 14:40, 11 December 2022 (UTC)</small> |
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*'''Oppose'''. Disclaimer, I am very much on the "let common name win" side of the crime naming policy by default, and I presume the incident is still referred to as a "murder" even post-conviction quashing. More generally, "is there an active conviction y/n" is not the only question to me - we should look at ''why'' the conviction was quashed. It was not quashed because evidence surfaced that Banfield was actually alive, but rather question over whether the highly controversial "joint enterprise" style conviction was valid. Nobody thinks there's any chance Banfield is actually alive (I'm sure he's been declared legally dead) so my very very very distant second choice would be ] if there's truly a desire to avoid the term "Murder", but I think "murder" is fine on common name basis regardless. ] (]) 21:14, 30 November 2022 (UTC) |
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*:{{yo|SnowFire}}, given that there is a difference between ] and ], would you be OK moving this to "Killing of Don Banfield"? — <span style="background: linear-gradient(#990000,#660000)">] <sub>]</sub></span> 21:17, 30 November 2022 (UTC) |
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*::I don't have a strong opinion about "Death of" vs. "Killing of", they seem about the same in this particular case. ] (]) 21:24, 30 November 2022 (UTC) |
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*'''Support''' - we don't generally call something a murder if there's no extant conviction, and I think this is probably a BLP issue too, given that the individual initially convicted of murder was later quashed. Probably best to call it a disappearance rather than a killing too, since in theory he might not even be dead. — ] (]) 23:06, 2 December 2022 (UTC) |
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**Per above, I think it's important to consider the reason that the conviction was quashed. The prosecution essentially said "one of these two people did it, or maybe both of them, but we're not sure about the details, so let's throw them both in prison." The jury agreed that this was accurate and convicted. The appeals court (correctly) said this wasn't good enough, that the prosecution's case needed to make sure that an innocent person wasn't being imprisoned as well merely because they might have done it (and definitely collaborated on the fraud afterward). But that doesn't overturn the basic facts of the case, which are that Don Banfield was murdered, and a jury agreed with that, and doubt on that aspect wasn't the reason the conviction was quashed, but rather the whole "joint enterprise" theory of not having to work out the details. Also, if we're being very strict about hewing to the legal definition of "murder", that implies we might want to be strict about the legal definition of "death" too which can include being declared dead (and thus not "disappeared"). I don't think we should do either of those, but just throwing that out there as a thought. ] (]) 21:45, 5 December 2022 (UTC) |
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*'''Oppose''' The appeal court's accepted that he's dead and was murdered. I've looked for an inquest – sometimes re-opened after an acquittal – but found no sign that one was re-opened after the quashing. The appeal judgment seems to be quoted in full ; that does match the extracts in news reports. That doesn't reconsider whether or not he's dead and was murdered. Towards the end, it lists "five postulations as to what might have explained the death, lucidly set out by" the appellants' QC that one or both killed him; by that point "the death" is not in question and the appellants' QC has "accepted that the likelihood is that one or other appellant murdered DB". ] (]) 16:25, 11 December 2022 (UTC) |
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:<small>Note: ] has been notified of this discussion. — ] <sup>(]</sup> <sup>])</sup> 14:39, 11 December 2022 (UTC)</small> |
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:<small>Note: ] has been notified of this discussion. — ] <sup>(]</sup> <sup>])</sup> 14:39, 11 December 2022 (UTC)</small> |
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:<small>'''Relisting comment''': to generate a more thorough consensus — ] <sup>(]</sup> <sup>])</sup> 14:40, 11 December 2022 (UTC)</small> |
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<div style="padding-left: 1.6em; font-style: italic; border-top: 1px solid #a2a9b1; margin: 0.5em 0; padding-top: 0.5em">The discussion above is closed. <b style="color: #FF0000;">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.</div><!-- from ] --> |
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</div><div style="clear:both;"></div> |
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== Mr Clegg KC states a VERY different point of view in his best selling book "under the wig " published in 2018 EVIDENCE omitted! here!== |
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This article is incomplete and not up to date!.... |
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There was never any inquest |
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. Mr banfield had debts over £50,000 and "tangled"financial problems, |
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drew down £30,000 just before he disappeared |
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he was seen by local police in person prior to his "disappearance" and |
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was subsequently allegedly seen driving his car by a local police officer AFTER his "murder" (Sources appeal court documentation) and |
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Mr William Clegg KC and judge published a legally and critically acclaimed best selling book in 2018 |
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having played a central role in the trial he was able to make some things clear |
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*1*The defence HAD to concede that Don had been murdered for pragmatic reasons on appeal because the jury had made a finding of "guilty" |
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*2*EVEN if the jury believed that the accused were guilty, there were various different ways in which this could have been achieved. |
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*3* That's NOT saying that ANY actually happened, just to explain that no logical conclusion of guilty could be achieved. |
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*4* Even if The jury thought, on what was in his opinion an incredibly thin "open and shut case" of innocent, that the accused were guilty they STILL couldn't logically decide what had happened and whether both were involved. |
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*5* The 3 judges findings were that the trial judge shouldn't have ever allowed trial to continue |
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because of insufficient evidence presented by the prosecution |
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"no LOGICAL" jury could have made a finding of guilt |
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*6* The 5 alternatives are designed by the defence to show the fallacy of the prosecution case. It is not an admission of guilt, rather a legal argument, as per Mr Clegg (leading counsel) |
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*7*Mr Clegg KC states VERY convincingly and clearly, that having seen all the evidence presented, and most importantly no longer actually acting in the capacity of defence at the time of publication (2018)( 6 years on from the trial) that |
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in his legal opinion... |
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Mr Banfield may not actually even have been killed at all. |
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It's terrible that it's been excluded the article is inaccurate incomplete information and not up to date information omitted |
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I have been bullied, trolled and had things implied about me and my comments, other people that challenged the article narrative were also attacked and disregarded but that just demonstrates the bias here, why hide it?or try SO hard to discredit a different position that it's omitted?These are documented facts.Sorry for my poor command of the English language,I've just tried to put some facts for a more balanced view. Say.. imply what you will..these are undesputed facts and this article doesn't stand up |
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:I personally am unable to read any of the relevant text from Google Books (I don't have a preview for the chapter entitled "murder without a body", which I presume is the relevant one here) , so I can't confirm sourcing on what the IP is suggesting. I understand that Clegg sought a legal argument to get around the jury verdict in a way that didn't contest the presence of a murder, and that this is not logically inconsistent with not being certain of a murder, but if you could provide the exact quote from the book it would be nice. — <span style="background: linear-gradient(#990000,#660000)">] <sub>]</sub></span> 04:39, 17 January 2023 (UTC) |
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I have answered this question!extracts ARE readily available online,and cover most of this.. but my reply was deleted strangely!..happened to someone who tried to change the article narrative as well!..So I won't take it personal..But if you look you'll find my answer below, and direct quote extracts from the ebook as requested (£4.99) <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 00:43, 18 January 2023 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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==Under the wig extracts from the best selling book re this case EVIDENCE == |
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Under the wig extracts from this book |
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written by William Clegg KC and judge |
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readily available online if you use "Google books" VERY easy to access and find bizarre that you can't? |
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Google William Clegg "under the wig" |
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If it doesn't pop up if you write "Don banfield" in the "go to" search, just keep scrolling after doing that it comes up |
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it does cover the relevant section as a preview for free!..But it's just £4.99 to purchase completely as an e book, unlike some of the subscriptions needed for articles! it's a bestseller too! |
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Mr William Clegg KC and judge Under The Wig (October 2018) |
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Pg169/170 "one day he had gone to his local police station |
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oddly perhaps for someone apparently in fear of his life, Trinidadian-born Mr Banfield went home from the station to continue living with his wife and daughter in Wealdstone, London |
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"perhaps because he had previously vanished from the West Indies without warning or forwarding address, and telling friends of his desire to disappear, detectives were somewhat sceptical about his claims that Shirley wanted to do away with him. Nonetheless , shortly after he visited the police station Mr Banfield did disappear" |
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Page 171 I and Lynette Banfield's legal teams believed it was an open and shut case |
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page 171 the sale of the family home, which would have realised a £120,000 profit, which he intended to split with his wife. After he vanished his share remained untouched." |
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The prosecution had no body and no actual time, place or mechanism of death. Not only was there no proof that Mr Banfield was dead, there were several tantalising hints that he was in fact alive, including a number of sightings, one of which came from a policewoman" |
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page172/173 |
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despite the prosecution case being wholly circumstantial, the jury found both guilty.Although there was no concession that he had been killed by someone at trial. So pragmatically, at the appeal we accepted Mr Banfield was murdered. However accepting that didn't help the prosecution case |
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Sorry about that!genuinely don't know what happened there! |
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Could someone else please look at this again. All my edits have been completely removed. They're all verifiable sources and information. Mr Clegg gives his legal perspective, and careful about the suggestions that this is anything but accurate and honest. |
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"The only motive they could have had was to take his share of the house sale, but his share had not been touched" |
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There are the judges findings and reasoning (that have now been removed), as well as verifiable information regarding the successful defence arguments.Some people are interested in the legality of the case and would benefit from all information available. Regarding information left here, it doesn't accurately reflect the sources cited, and where it is completely contradicted by equally verifiable sources, only one version is given. Please see my contributions and previous edits that have been completely removed by this person, without concessions given.They included information from the court papers, plus court reporters.thank you.If my writing is in anyway inadequate, please feel free to amend it. Sorry if that's the case, I didn't realise it was awful. Thank you ] (]) 10:04, 26 March 2023 (UTC) |
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:], you are just going round in circles here. There is already a discussion about this content above which you and other editors can comment on. There's no need to just open up more and more discussion sections on the same topic. ] (]) 10:18, 26 March 2023 (UTC) |
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::you seem oddly and overly obsessed. overly interested in limiting all information available. The request is to neutral fair people. |
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::I believe that fair people will look at this and say no this isn't right. full freedom of information. please can you not limit and dominate the discussion process.The information doesn't relate to the sources cited, and the judges findings and reasoning and the decision-making process of the defence is excluded, as reported in court papers and by the court reporters in the harrow times, and local London press.Please see my previous edits. All information should be shown if it is from verifiable sources. Thanks for looking at this again, please could someone who doesn't have an interest include information regarding the judges findings and the successful defence arguments. Thanks so much. I believe in freedom of information and expression which is verifiable, not suppression of all information. Please can someone neutral include this. Thanks!] (]) 10:40, 26 March 2023 (UTC) |
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:::Overly obsessive? Are you kidding? YOU are the person who has constantly been begging these users to add back your edits, even though they've declined. Also, the statement that all information should be shown if it's from a verifiable source is untrue. Read ]. <span style="font-family: comic sans;">] ]</span> 15:41, 27 March 2023 (UTC) |
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::::I was wrong to say that to erratic. I just wanted someone to look again. I have acted badly, because it's frustrating.That's no excuse. I lost perspective, I realise that. ] (]) 17:27, 27 March 2023 (UTC) |
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:there is no edit request here. Edit requests should show the content to be changed and the sourcing to support the change ] (]) 16:13, 27 March 2023 (UTC) |
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::https://www.mylondon.news/news/local-news/don-banfields-wife-daughter-murder-5964345 |
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::https://www.harrowtimes.co.uk/news/10585245.wife-and-daughter-accused-of-killing-wealdstone-man-don-banfield-have-murder-convictions-quashed/ |
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::The judges reasoning is in the court papers, but also found here. ] (]) 17:20, 27 March 2023 (UTC) |
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::https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-17371761 |
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::This is the only secondary source I could find regarding the early drawing down of a lump sum. ] (]) 18:32, 27 March 2023 (UTC) |
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:::https://www.harrowtimes.co.uk/news/10585245.wife-and-daughter-accused-of-killing-wealdstone-man-don-banfield-have-murder-convictions-quashed/ ] (]) 18:35, 27 March 2023 (UTC) |
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::::https://www.mylondon.news/news/local-news/don-banfields-wife-daughter-murder-5964345 ] (]) 18:36, 27 March 2023 (UTC) |
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== Request edit == |
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The judges findings and reasoning were summarised by https://en.m.wikipedia.org/Special:MobileDiff/1144954012, |
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I'm worried that this will not be seen. Thanks for taking the time to look again. If there is an issue with the book, (although it was on the best seller's, and acknowledged by legal experts), then cut it from the main article completely. That's absolutely fine. There are only a few lines quoted from it directly, but anything related to it, I think that there are 3 inserts?...but why exclude the court papers evidence, and most crucially the judges findings and reasoning (at all the very end ) which court reporters recorded at the time, as reported in the harrow times and a local London paper.It's important to show how it was reported at the time, and the 3 judges thoughts about how they came to this conclusion. This information is from verifiable sources. Cut Mr Clegg, as per Erratic, and Erratic has suggested that he could be briefly summarised at the end, seeing as he is actually being misrepresented in this article. That's a possibility, if Erratic thinks so. He wrote a book 6 years after the trial and explains what actually occurred, obviously from his perspectives. He was a central figure. But I think it's fair enough to cut him on the grounds that have been raised.My main concern is that I think that the judges findings and reasoning (included in the very last part before erratic reverting,) has value. Thanks.I think that the baby has been thrown out with the bathwater. Beautiful Rosie (talk) 07:33, 27 March 2023 (UTC) ] (]) 07:36, 27 March 2023 (UTC) |
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== Discussion started at ] about the use of the Court Document == |
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] is where it can be found. The document is overused in this as article, seeking community input on what is usable ] (]) 16:11, 27 March 2023 (UTC) |
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Page173/174 |
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"The judges also took the view that the judge had been wrong not to stop the trial at the end of the prosecution case. |
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I have no idea who killed Mr Banfield, if he was killed. He might still be alive" |
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== Reminder to editors == |
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More up to date information omitted from this article |
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This talk page is for discussing how to improve the related article, not for discussing the persons mentioned in the article in general. — ] <sup>]</sup> 14:08, 29 March 2023 (UTC) |
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Mr Clegg KC and judge under the wig published October 2018 (canburypress.com) <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 14:17, 19 January 2023 (UTC)</small> |
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:{{tl|Talk header}} added above. ] (]) 18:07, 29 March 2023 (UTC) |
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== The material in here is wrongful, completely made up in places. It isn't sourced to the cites attributed to it. == |
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==Beautiful Rosie== |
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{{Ping|Beautiful Rosie}} I removed your edit because other editors ] and because your edit appeared very much like a personal commentary, such as comments like "somehow the jury in the original trial had found them guilty on the basis that it was joint venture" and the fact that all of the content you added was in favour of the defence. There was an apparent ] issue. Much of the content you added was also of poor presentation style. Please do not, therefore, attempt to unilaterally restore the content without discussion, as the ] is on you to seek consensus to include disputed content. Furthermore, please do not pick out edits from my edit list on other unrelated pages and revert them for unexplained reasons, as you did here: ] (]) 15:49, 24 March 2023 (UTC) |
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The content of this article is incorrect information.it doesn't even relate to the sources cited. No-one has bothered checking. It also creates a bias narrative, but I don't care anymore, or the fact it is deliberately malicious and dishonest and omits information about the case, but it states made up information and then cites a source, but you'll notice it doesn't have the information stated in the source given. Misplaced Pages foundation cleverly accepts no legal liability for this article. You are responsible for this defamation ] (]) 07:37, 28 June 2023 (UTC) |
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:Hello replied to you on your talk page immediately. I'm sorry if that was incorrect, or you didn't see?. I dont think there is any blp problem now. I think there is when you delete any other view, so only one remained. Genuinely think it is more balanced, and neutral point of view as a whole as all arguments are incorporated, both of which are obviously extremely opposed. The sockpuppet presented the prosecution arguments as facts, lying by omission. the defence differ in their opinion. Most people like all facts about something, the legality is explanatory, and then the judges findings. Everything is , as part of the case, and brought into it as a whole, incl judges findings.please stop reverting, maybe you could make it all read better and work with all info about this. Sorry about the whole ping thing, I didn't realise what that means.and the whole going to your article thing.very sorry. ] (]) 04:44, 26 March 2023 (UTC) |
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::Also, it did stand for about a month before, parts were adjusted and deleted during this. Most people seem to like more verifiable info,not less in order to be npov and understand it esp when it comes to a complex legal case. Thanks for taking the time to look at this again. ] (]) 04:55, 26 March 2023 (UTC) |
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Could someone else please look at this again. All my edits have been completely removed. They're all verifiable sources and information. Mr Clegg gives his legal perspective, and careful about the suggestions that this is anything but accurate and honest.
There are the judges findings and reasoning (that have now been removed), as well as verifiable information regarding the successful defence arguments.Some people are interested in the legality of the case and would benefit from all information available. Regarding information left here, it doesn't accurately reflect the sources cited, and where it is completely contradicted by equally verifiable sources, only one version is given. Please see my contributions and previous edits that have been completely removed by this person, without concessions given.They included information from the court papers, plus court reporters.thank you.If my writing is in anyway inadequate, please feel free to amend it. Sorry if that's the case, I didn't realise it was awful. Thank you Beautiful Rosie (talk) 10:04, 26 March 2023 (UTC)
This talk page is for discussing how to improve the related article, not for discussing the persons mentioned in the article in general. — xaosflux 14:08, 29 March 2023 (UTC)
The content of this article is incorrect information.it doesn't even relate to the sources cited. No-one has bothered checking. It also creates a bias narrative, but I don't care anymore, or the fact it is deliberately malicious and dishonest and omits information about the case, but it states made up information and then cites a source, but you'll notice it doesn't have the information stated in the source given. Misplaced Pages foundation cleverly accepts no legal liability for this article. You are responsible for this defamation Beautiful Rosie (talk) 07:37, 28 June 2023 (UTC)
