| Revision as of 13:36, 21 April 2023 edit2001:4453:4cc:df00:bc8a:f6cc:9a88:ef20 (talk)No edit summaryTags: Mobile edit Mobile web edit New topic← Previous edit | Latest revision as of 05:03, 20 October 2024 edit undoCewbot (talk | contribs)Bots7,304,637 editsm Maintain {{WPBS}}: 3 WikiProject templates. The article is listed in the level 5 page: Russian Federation.Tag: Talk banner shell conversion | ||
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| Removed an questionable comment without source "most of the attacks were carried out against military forces" and replaced with link to specific attacks. | Removed an questionable comment without source "most of the attacks were carried out against military forces" and replaced with link to specific attacks. | ||
| == |
== Marked as assassinated == | ||
| I propose to mark Rizvan Akhmadov and Gaidar Gadzhiyev as assassinated in the info box. Dokka Umarov and Sulim Yamadayev were also assassinated, albeit outside of the war. ] (]) 01:02, 19 September 2023 (UTC) | |||
| {{u|Ola Tønningsberg}}, thanks for adding information to the article. I've checked a small part of the sources you used and found a few problems: | |||
| * Quoting only the upper bound of the range given in the source | |||
| * No sources for a claim | |||
| * Using a very dubious source for an ] claim | |||
| * Using a passing mention in a newspaper article when much better sources are available | |||
| == Nonexistent first sentence == | |||
| Could you please review all the content that you have added and make sure it's supported by reliable sources? ]<sub>]</sub> 16:10, 14 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
| {{od}} | |||
| {{u|Alaexis}} | |||
| * '''1.''' The first source mentions the 9,000-11,000 killed range for Russian soldiers. The second source states 11,000 killed in the same period based on names provided by Russian families to the organization. Therefore I drew the conclusion as a general consensus of the sources that 11,000 Russian soldiers were definitely killed in this time frame. However, based on the two sources provided we will leave it as it is from your latest edit. | |||
| The beginning of the article goes nowhere. ] (]) 17:32, 15 January 2024 (UTC) | |||
| * '''2.''' Added sources from Human Rights Watch (https://www.hrw.org/legacy/backgrounder/eca/chechnya0403/1.htm, https://www.hrw.org/legacy/backgrounder/eca/chechnya0403/4.htm, https://www.hrw.org/legacy/backgrounder/eca/chechnya0403/5.htm, https://www.hrw.org/legacy/backgrounder/eca/chechnya0403/6.htm) | |||
| ::Fixed. ] (]) 23:07, 23 January 2024 (UTC) | |||
| * '''3.''' The source quotes a study conducted by the Chechen minister of health. Additional sources (https://tergam.info/2019/07/18/%D0%B8%D0%B7%D1%8A%D1%8F%D1%82%D0%B8%D0%B5-%D0%B2%D0%BD%D1%83%D1%82%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%85-%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B3%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2-%D1%83-%D0%B7%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%B6%D0%BD%D0%B8/, https://www.kavkaz-uzel.eu/articles/36730), Transcript of the documentary "Commerce d'hommes - Tortures d'enfants" ( http://tchetchenieparis.free.fr/text/MS-commerce-6-01.htm#4 ) | |||
| == Consensus discussion to rename this page == | |||
| * '''4.''' For now I will agree with your latest edit, in light of more numerous sources. | |||
| There is an open consensus discussion to rename this page: ]. It's a double RM, also to rename ]. Please participate if you can! We need as many opinions as possible. Thank you. -- ]] 14:19, 21 February 2024 (UTC) | |||
| Thanks for pointing out these inconsistencies.] (]) 20:43, 14 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
| == Move discussion in progress == | |||
| :Thanks for the explanation. Regarding #1, dates from February 2003 and so Melnikova's figures are likely to include the whole of 2002 and maybe the beginning of 2003. On the other hand provides the figures for "the second war’s most intense phase, from its beginning in late summer 1999 to '''early 2002'''." Since there is a separate source for the 2002-2004 period, I think it's better to leave the 9-11 thousand range. ]<sub>]</sub> 07:29, 15 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
| :Re #3 the Chechen Minister of Health is a source associated with one of the sides of the conflict. Just like we shouldn't take what Russia says about its losses at face value, we should be careful here too. At the very least it should be attributed. ]<sub>]</sub> 07:33, 15 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
| ::I agree ] (]) 14:50, 15 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
| {{u|Ola Tønningsberg}}, there is a few issues with your edits. However, I think there is room for compromise and consensus. Namely, the problem is proper attribution for the figures, see WP guidelines on this ].<br> | |||
| '''First''', you say "total killed" for Russian losses which implies the figure is factual. The figures need to be appropriately attributed, just like we attribute figures claimed by Russia. Thus it needs to be emphasized those are in fact "independent estimates" (and estimates coming from different sources in fact).<br> | |||
| '''Second''', it may be obvious to you personally, but it may not be to the readers, so proper attribution needs to be made for the figure on Chechen anti-Russian losses since there are in fact two different Chechen factions, one being pro-Russian, the other anti-Russian.<br> | |||
| '''Third''', . I removed only one source, Deutsche Welle, which mentions 4,749 deaths in the period from August 2002 through August 2003. I did this because I considered it redundant for the following reason... This period is already covered by the Committee of Soldiers' Mothers figure which is for 1999-2005. The second reference , attributed to an analysis by both Jane’s Group and the Jamestown Foundation gives 9,000-11,000 dead from 1999 through February 2002, with another 3,000 dead for 2003. So that's, as I wrote, a total of 12,000-14,000 killed for 1999-2003 (excluding March-Dec. 2002).<br> | |||
| '''Fourth''', the consensus you mentioned here , as far as I can see above, was for the 9,000-11,000 (1999-2002) range to be be presented, which was actually removed from the infobox here and you did not restore it.<br> | |||
| '''Fifth''', with your edit here you removed the sources for losses among the Chechen police, FSB and GRU. If you insist on removing them again then we do not actually have a total of 7,268–7,476 dead as per Russia.<br> | |||
| '''Sixth''', with your edit here you removed the figures as per the Committee of Soldiers' Mothers, as well as its citation, for the period from 1999 through 2005.<br> | |||
| Now, to be clear, I actually support the earlier compromise to present the 9,000-11,000 (1999-2002) range, with the separate figure cited to Military Balance (via DW) for 4,749 dead during 2002-2003. However, proper attribution for both figures needs to be presented. Further, there is no basis to remove the figures presented by the Committee of Soldiers' Mothers, which actually covers a larger time range than the other two sources (two years longer). To continue, in principal I do not support (for which there was no previous discussion for a compromise) combining estimates from two different organizations into one total (13,500-15,500) which is in my opinion contrary to ] and ] potentially. However, for the sake of compromise, I would support presenting 13,500-15,500, but only if its properly attributed. I myself would be ready to reinstate this range, but only if you agree on attributing the figure. However, in that case, separating the 9,000-11,000 range and the 4,749 would be redundant and should be removed then (again, I can do it myself). As for your removal of sources for dead among Chechen police, FSB and GRU, if you still insist on this, then by all means remove it (I would not object), but you will need to adjust the total figure of dead as per Russia. Finally, proper attribution needs to be presented for the claim on losses among anti-Russian Chechen forces. It can be cited to Shamil Basayev, who was the primary source. What does {{u|Alaexis}} think regarding this? ] (]) 20:45, 3 January 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :Hello, {{u|EkoGraf}}. Thanks for tagging me as I think you misunderstood me. I don't have an issue with attributing the sources. The problem was that you removed two sources in your edit, and . The 9,000-11,000 source only counts for 1999 to early 2002, ignoring much of 2002 while then giving a number for 2003. You wrote this as 1999-2003 which was another issue. Regarding your 4th point, I didn't combine these two sources, just changed it back to the previous revision before you edited. Regarding 5th, I believe writing the individual losses for all the different russian forces unnecessarily clutters the infobox, so I combined them into one count. I don't remember removing the sources for chechen police/fsb/gru, might've been accidental. Not sure about WP:SYNTH, I might go ahead and ask someone more knowledgeable on a noticeboard or something regarding this. On a final note, there's nothing called "anti russian chechen forces". You have Chechen forces and pro Russian chechen forces in this conflict. I think writing "Shamil Basayev claim" just sounds silly. He's one of the senior leaders of the Chechen movement, therefore it would be more correct to write "chechen claim". ] (]) 19:30, 4 January 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :The infobox looks much better now than in your first edit. ] (]) 19:33, 4 January 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :Apologies, I've been pretty busy lately. I think the infobox looks better now that all the claims are attributed. Please lmk if there are unresolved issues. ]<sub>]</sub> 22:08, 9 January 2023 (UTC) | |||
| Hello, {{replyto|EkoGraf}}. I thought you supported to have the 13,500-15,500 range as long as it was attributed, which it was. | |||
| There is a move discussion in progress on ] which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. <!-- Talk:First Chechen War#Requested move 21 February 2024 crosspost --> —] 14:48, 21 February 2024 (UTC) | |||
| == The Second Chechen War and the insurgency in the North Caucasus == | |||
| What is the problem with statement, that these events are considered together as united and ongoing armed conflict? There is similar statement in ]. ] (]) 18:54, 8 March 2023 (UTC) | |||
| == A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion == | |||
| The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion: | |||
| * ]<!-- COMMONSBOT: discussion | 2023-03-26T19:24:45.707697 | Grey Wolves Gokturk Flag.svg --> | |||
| Participate in the deletion discussion at the ]. —] (]) 19:24, 26 March 2023 (UTC) | |||
| I have a complaint about jjmc89 because he vandalise and remove images of the secon chechen war forget to remove the captions of the pictures will you guys lock this wikipedia page to avad any more incidents ] (]) 13:36, 21 April 2023 (UTC) | |||
Latest revision as of 05:03, 20 October 2024
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Insurgent apologist comments removed
Removed an questionable comment without source "most of the attacks were carried out against military forces" and replaced with link to specific attacks.
Marked as assassinated
I propose to mark Rizvan Akhmadov and Gaidar Gadzhiyev as assassinated in the info box. Dokka Umarov and Sulim Yamadayev were also assassinated, albeit outside of the war. Swesbed (talk) 01:02, 19 September 2023 (UTC)
Nonexistent first sentence
The beginning of the article goes nowhere. Salmoonlight (talk) 17:32, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
Consensus discussion to rename this page
There is an open consensus discussion to rename this page: Talk:First_Chechen_War#Requested_move_21_February_2024. It's a double RM, also to rename First Chechen War. Please participate if you can! We need as many opinions as possible. Thank you. -- GreenC 14:19, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:First Chechen War which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 14:48, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
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