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{{Short description|Internet adage about Nazi comparisons}}
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{{distinguish|Goodhart's law}}] wearing a T-shirt implicitly referencing Godwin's Law: "I disagree with you but I'm pretty sure you're not Hitler."]]
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'''Godwin's law''' (or '''Godwin's rule'''), short for '''Godwin's law of Nazi analogies''',<ref name="Godwin94">{{cite magazine |last=Godwin |first=Mike |author-link=Mike Godwin |title=Meme, Counter-meme |date=October 1, 1994 |magazine=] |volume=2 |issue=10 |url= https://www.wired.com/wired/archive/2.10/godwin.if_pr.html |access-date=March 24, 2006}}</ref> is an Internet ] asserting: "As an ] grows longer, the probability of a ] or Hitler ]."<ref name="Godwin95canonical version">{{cite web |last=Godwin |first=Mike |author-link=Mike Godwin |title=Godwin's law of Hitler Analogies (and Corollaries) |work=w2.EFF.org |date=January 12, 1995 |publisher=] |department="Net Culture – Humor" archive section |url= http://w2.eff.org/Net_culture/Folklore/Humor/godwins.law |access-date=June 19, 2012 |url-status=dead |archive-url= https://web.archive.org/web/20120829094739/http://w2.eff.org/Net_culture/Folklore/Humor/godwins.law |archive-date=August 29, 2012}}</ref>
{{Spoken Misplaced Pages|Godwin's_law.ogg|2006-07-01}}
'''Godwin's Law''' (also known as '''Godwin's Rule of Nazi Analogies''') is a mainstay of ], an ] formulated by ] in 1990. The law states:


==History==
<blockquote>As an online discussion grows longer, the ] of a comparison involving ] or ] approaches one.<ref name="WiredMCM">{{cite web | author=] | title=Meme, Counter-meme | year=] | work=] | url=http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/2.10/godwin.if.html | accessdate=2006-03-24 }}</ref></blockquote>
Promulgated by the American attorney and author ] in 1990,<ref name="Godwin94" /> Godwin's law originally referred specifically to ] discussions.<ref name="Godwin 1991">{{cite newsgroup |last=Godwin |first=Mike |author-link=Mike Godwin |title=Re: Nazis (was Re: Card's Article on Homosexuality |date=August 18, 1991 |newsgroup=rec.arts.sf-lovers |message-id=1991Aug18.215029.19421@eff.org |url= https://groups.google.com/groups?selm=1991Aug18.215029.19421%40eff.org}}</ref> He stated that he introduced Godwin's law in 1990 as an experiment in ],<ref name="Godwin94" /> specifically to address the ubiquity of such comparisons which he believes regrettably ] the ].<ref>{{cite news |last=McFarlane |first=Andrew |title=Is it ever OK to call someone a Nazi? |work=] |date=July 14, 2010 |url= https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10618638 |access-date=August 4, 2010}}</ref><ref>{{cite podcast |last1=Fishman |first1=Aleisa |last2=Godwin |first2=Mike |author2-link=Mike Godwin |title=Interview with Mike Godwin |work=Voices on Antisemitism |publisher=] |date=September 1, 2011 |url= http://www.ushmm.org/confront-antisemitism/antisemitism-podcast/mike-godwin |url-status=dead |archive-url= https://web.archive.org/web/20140520044036/http://www.ushmm.org/confront-antisemitism/antisemitism-podcast/mike-godwin |archive-date=May 20, 2014}}</ref> Later, it was applied to any ], such as ]s, ]s, and ] comment threads, as well as to speeches, articles, and other ]<ref name="Goldacre 2010">{{cite web |last=Goldacre |first=Ben |title=Pope aligns atheists with Nazis. Bizarre. Transcript here. |work=bengoldacre – secondary blog |date=September 16, 2010 |url= http://bengoldacre.posterous.com/nazi-youth-pope-aligns-atheists-with-nazis-bi |archive-url= https://web.archive.org/web/20130325005933/http://bengoldacre.posterous.com/nazi-youth-pope-aligns-atheists-with-nazis-bi |archive-date=March 25, 2013}}</ref><ref name="Hillary Putin">{{cite news |last=Stanley |first=Timothy |title=Hillary, Putin's no Hitler |department="Opinion" department |date=March 6, 2014 |work=] |url= https://www.cnn.com/2014/03/05/opinion/stanley-hillary-clinton-hitler/index.html |access-date=March 6, 2014}}</ref> where {{lang|la|]}} occurs.


In 2012, ''Godwin's law'' became an entry in the third edition of the '']''.<ref>{{cite web |title=Godwin's law |work=] |publisher=] |url= http://www.oed.com/view/Entry/340583?redirectedFrom=Godwin%27s+law#eid |access-date=February 27, 2013}}</ref>
Godwin's Law does not dispute whether any particular reference or comparison to Hitler or the Nazis might be apt. It is precisely because such a comparison or reference may sometimes be appropriate, Godwin has argued,<ref name="CRDFSDA">'']''</ref> that overuse of the Nazi/Hitler comparison should be avoided, as it robs the valid comparisons of their impact.


==Generalization, corollaries, and usage==
Although in one of its early forms Godwin's Law referred specifically to ] ] discussions,<ref>{{cite newsgroup | author=] | title=Re: Nazis (was Re: Card's Article on Homosexuality | date=] | newsgroup=rec.arts.sf-lovers | id=1991Aug18.215029.19421@eff.org | url=http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=1991Aug18.215029.19421%40eff.org }}</ref> the law is now applied to any ]: ]s, ]s, ]s, and more recently ] comment threads and ] talk pages.
Godwin's law can be applied mistakenly or abused as a distraction, a diversion, or even ], when miscasting an opponent's argument as ] even when the comparison made by the argument is appropriate.<ref>{{cite web |first=David |last=Weigel |title=Hands Off Hitler! It's time to repeal Godwin's Law |work=] |date=July 14, 2005 |url= http://www.reason.com/news/show/32944.html |archive-url= https://web.archive.org/web/20090715142410/http://www.reason.com/news/show/32944.html |archive-date=July 15, 2009}}</ref> Godwin has criticized the over-application of the adage, claiming that it does not articulate a ], but rather is intended to reduce the frequency of inappropriate and hyperbolic comparisons:<ref>{{cite web |url= http://www.jewcy.com/post/i_seem_be_verb_18_years_godwins_law |title=I Seem to Be a Verb: 18 Years of Godwin's Law |date=April 30, 2008 |work=Jewcy.com |access-date=April 16, 2010 |archive-url= https://web.archive.org/web/20130115035303/http://www.jewcy.com/post/i_seem_be_verb_18_years_godwins_law |archive-date=January 15, 2013}}</ref>


{{blockquote|Although deliberately framed as if it were a ], its purpose has always been rhetorical and ]: I wanted folks who glibly compared someone else to Hitler to think a bit harder about ].}}
Godwin has stated<ref name="WiredMCM" /> that he introduced Godwin's law as an experiment in ].


In 2021, ] researchers published an article showing that the Nazi-comparison phenomenon does not occur with ] frequency in ] discussions.<ref>{{Cite web |last=Harrison |first=Stephen |title=Has Godwin's Law, the Rule of Nazi Comparisons, Been Disproved? |work=] |date=January 24, 2022 |url= https://slate.com/technology/2022/01/godwins-law-research-disproven-history.html |access-date=April 23, 2022}}</ref><ref>{{Cite journal |last1=Fariello |first1=Gabriele |last2=Jemielniak |first2=Dariusz |author-link2=Dariusz Jemielniak |last3=Sulkowski |first3=Adam |date=December 12, 2021 |title=Does Godwin's law (rule of Nazi analogies) apply in observable reality? An empirical study of selected words in 199 million Reddit posts |url= http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/14614448211062070 |journal=] |volume=26 |pages=389–404 |issn=1461-4448 |publisher=] |doi=10.1177/14614448211062070 |s2cid=245035602}}</ref>
==Corollaries and usage==


There is a tradition in many newsgroups and other Internet discussion forums that once such a comparison is made, the thread is finished and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically "lost" whatever ] was in progress. This principle is itself frequently referred to as Godwin's Law. Thus Godwin's Law serves to impose an upper bound on thread length in general. Godwin's law has many ], some considered more canonical (by being adopted by Godwin himself)<ref name="Godwin95canonical version" /> than others. For example, many newsgroups and other Internet discussion forums have a tradition that, when a Nazi or Hitler comparison is made, the thread is finished and whoever made the comparison loses whatever ] is in progress.<ref>{{cite news |last=Chivers |first=Tom |title=Internet rules and laws: The top 10, from Godwin to Poe |work=] |date=October 23, 2009 |location=London |url= https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/news/6408927/Internet-rules-and-laws-the-top-10-from-Godwin-to-Poe.html}}</ref> This idea is itself sometimes mistakenly referred to as Godwin's law.<ref>{{Cite web |last=Datta |first=N. |title=Godwin's Law – How Adolf Hitler Is Mathematically Connected To Internet Forum Discussions |date=June 20, 2017 |url= https://trove42.com/godwins-law-how-adolf-hitler-is-mathematically-connected-to-internet-forum-discussions/ |work=Trove 42 |access-date=February 13, 2024}}</ref>
It is considered poor form to raise arbitrarily such a comparison with the motive of ending the thread. There is a widely recognized ] that any such ulterior-motive invocation of Godwin's Law will be unsuccessful (this is sometimes referred to as "Quirk's Exception").<ref>{{cite web|title = The Jargon File (4.4.7) | url=http://catb.org/esr/jargon/html/G/Godwins-Law.html|accessdate = 03-01-2007}}</ref>


Godwin rejects the idea that whoever invokes Godwin's law has lost the argument, and suggests that, applied appropriately, the rule "should function less as a conversation ender and more as a conversation starter."<ref name="LAT 2018-06">{{cite web |last=Godwin |first=Mike |author-link=Mike Godwin |title=Op-Ed: Do we need to update Godwin's Law about the probability of comparison to Nazis? |work=] |date=June 24, 2018 |url= https://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-godwin-godwins-law-20180624-story.html |access-date=July 24, 2020}}</ref> In an interview with '']'', Godwin said that making comparisons to Hitler would actually be appropriate under the right circumstances:<ref name="time">{{cite magazine | url=https://time.com/4837881/godwin-law-interview-2017/ | title=Should You Call Someone Hitler? Here's What the Man Behind Godwin's Law Thinks | magazine=] | date=June 29, 2017 | accessdate=February 13, 2024 | author=Hoffman, Ashley}}</ref>
Godwin's Law does not apply to discussions directly addressing genocide, propaganda or other mainstays of the Nazi regime. Instead, it applies to inappropriate, inordinate, or hyperbolic comparisons of other situations to Hitler or Nazis. However, Godwin's Law can itself also be abused, as a distraction or diversion, to ] miscast an opponent's argument as ], especially if the comparison the argument made were actually appropriate.


{{blockquote|I urge people to develop enough perspective to do it thoughtfully. If you think the comparison is valid, and you've given it some thought, do it. All I ask you to do is think about the human beings capable of acting very badly. We have to keep the magnitude of those events in mind, and not be glib. Our society needs to be more humane, more civilized and to grow up.}}
== See also ==
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In August 2017, while commenting on the ] in ], Godwin himself endorsed and encouraged social-media users to compare its "]" participants to Nazis.<ref>{{cite web |last=Gilbert |first=Alexandre |title=Godwin's Law & the Nazi Cosplay Hobbiysts |work=] |date=August 17, 2017 |url= http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/godwins-law-the-nazi-cosplay-hobbiysts/}}</ref><ref>{{cite web |last=Mandelbaum |first=Ryan F. |title=Godwin of Godwin's Law: 'By All Means, Compare These Shitheads to the Nazis' |work=] |date=August 13, 2017 |url= https://gizmodo.com/godwin-of-godwins-law-by-all-means-compare-these-shi-1797807646 |access-date=December 26, 2023}}</ref>
== Notes and references ==
=== Footnotes ===
<!--See http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Footnotes for an explanation of how to generate footnotes using the <references /)> tags-->
<references />


Godwin has denied the need to update or amend the rule. In June 2018, he wrote, in an opinion piece for the '']'': "It still serves us as a tool to recognize specious comparisons to Nazism&nbsp;– but also, by contrast, to recognize comparisons that aren't."<ref name="LAT 2018-06" />
=== Other references ===
Additionally, when a potential subject of Godwin's law seems "intent on making the Hitler comparison",<ref name="washington post">{{cite news | url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2024/09/24/trump-hitler-rhetoric-comparison/ | title=Trump gets compared with history's great villain because his rhetoric is that bad | newspaper=Washington Post | date=September 24, 2024 | accessdate=September 24, 2024 | author=Rampell, Catherine}}</ref> the comparison with fascism may be appropriate rather than devaluing the argument; a "]" corollary to the Law recognizes the pernicious embrace of Nazi-inspired tropes and phrases by the "]".
* {{cite web | author=] | title=Meme, Counter-meme | year=] | work=] | url=http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/2.10/godwin.if_pr.html | accessdate=2006-03-24 }}

* {{cite web | author=Weigel, David | title=Hands Off Hitler!: It's time to repeal Godwin's Law | year=] | work=] | url=http://www.reason.com/hod/dw071405.shtml | accessdate=2006-03-24 }}
In 2023, Godwin published an opinion on '']'' stating "Yes, it's okay to compare Trump to Hitler. Don't let me stop you." In the article, Godwin says "But when people draw parallels between Donald Trump’s 2024 candidacy and Hitler’s progression from fringe figure to Great Dictator, we aren’t joking. Those of us who hope to preserve our democratic institutions need to underscore the resemblance before we enter the twilight of American democracy."<ref>{{cite news |last1=Godwin |first1=Mike |title=Yes, it's okay to compare Trump to Hitler. Don't let me stop you. |url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/12/20/godwins-law-trump-hitler-comparisons/ |newspaper=] |access-date=22 November 2024 |date=20 December 2023}}</ref>
* {{cite web | author=] | title=Godwin's Law of Nazi Analogies (and Corollaries) | publisher=] | year=] | work=EFF "Net Culture - Humor" Archive | url=http://www.eff.org/Net_culture/Folklore/Humor/godwins.law | accessdate=2006-03-24 }}

* {{cite newsgroup | author=Sexton, Richard | title=Re: .aquaria (Tropical fish. Good enough for Hitler, why not you ?) | date=] | newsgroup=news.groups | id=21000@gryphon.COM | url=http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=21000%40gryphon.COM }}
==See also==
{{Portal|Internet}}
* ]
* ]
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* ]
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* {{lang|la|]}}
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==References==
{{Reflist}}

==Further reading==
* {{cite web |last=Anderson |first=Nate |title=No Nazi comparisons? Sounds like something Hitler would say! |work=] |date=September 1, 2011 |url= https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2011/09/no-nazi-comparisons-sounds-like-something-hitler-would-say.ars |access-date=September 1, 2011}}


==External links== ==External links==
{{Wiktionary}}
===Related information===
{{Spoken Misplaced Pages|Godwin's law.ogg|date=July 1, 2005}}
* (also )
* {{Cite web |first=Tim |last=Skirvin |title=How to post about Nazis and get away with it – The Godwin's law FAQ |date=September 15, 1999 |work=Skirv's Wiki |url= http://www.faqs.org/faqs/usenet/legends/godwin/ |archive-url= https://web.archive.org/web/19991011095714/http://www.faqs.org/faqs/usenet/legends/godwin/ |archive-date=October 11, 1999}}
* ] in ] ]
* {{cite magazine |last=Sietzman |first=Michael |title=My Nazi Can Beat Up Your Nazi |magazine=] |date=December 6, 2017 |orig-date=2009 |url= http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michael-seitzman/my-nazi-can-beat-up-your_b_260710.html}}
* — a listing of various fandom and Internet debate laws similar to Godwin's Law
* {{cite magazine |last1=Amira |first1=Dan |last2=Godwin |first2=Mike |author2-link=Mike Godwin |title=Mike Godwin on Godwin's Law, Whether Nazi Comparisons Have Gotten Worse, and Being Compared to Hitler by His Daughter |department="Intelligencer" department |magazine=] |date=March 8, 2013 |url= http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2013/03/godwins-law-mike-godwin-hitler-nazi-comparisons.html}}
* Mike Godwin runs


{{Fallacies}}
===Notable citations to Godwin's law===
* {{cite web|author=Zonk|title=Godwin's Law Invoked in Linus/Gnome Spat|publisher=Slashdot.org|year=]|work=can't-the-nazis-stay-out-of-just-one-internet-argument|url=http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/02/17/0219225}}


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Latest revision as of 14:52, 17 December 2024

Internet adage about Nazi comparisons

Not to be confused with Goodhart's law.
An attendee at the 2010 Rally to Restore Sanity and/or Fear wearing a T-shirt implicitly referencing Godwin's Law: "I disagree with you but I'm pretty sure you're not Hitler."

Godwin's law (or Godwin's rule), short for Godwin's law of Nazi analogies, is an Internet adage asserting: "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1."

History

Promulgated by the American attorney and author Mike Godwin in 1990, Godwin's law originally referred specifically to Usenet newsgroup discussions. He stated that he introduced Godwin's law in 1990 as an experiment in memetics, specifically to address the ubiquity of such comparisons which he believes regrettably trivialize the Holocaust. Later, it was applied to any threaded online discussion, such as Internet forums, chat rooms, and social-media comment threads, as well as to speeches, articles, and other rhetoric where reductio ad Hitlerum occurs.

In 2012, Godwin's law became an entry in the third edition of the Oxford English Dictionary.

Generalization, corollaries, and usage

Godwin's law can be applied mistakenly or abused as a distraction, a diversion, or even censorship, when miscasting an opponent's argument as hyperbole even when the comparison made by the argument is appropriate. Godwin has criticized the over-application of the adage, claiming that it does not articulate a fallacy, but rather is intended to reduce the frequency of inappropriate and hyperbolic comparisons:

Although deliberately framed as if it were a law of nature or of mathematics, its purpose has always been rhetorical and pedagogical: I wanted folks who glibly compared someone else to Hitler to think a bit harder about the Holocaust.

In 2021, Harvard researchers published an article showing that the Nazi-comparison phenomenon does not occur with statistically meaningful frequency in Reddit discussions.

Godwin's law has many corollaries, some considered more canonical (by being adopted by Godwin himself) than others. For example, many newsgroups and other Internet discussion forums have a tradition that, when a Nazi or Hitler comparison is made, the thread is finished and whoever made the comparison loses whatever debate is in progress. This idea is itself sometimes mistakenly referred to as Godwin's law.

Godwin rejects the idea that whoever invokes Godwin's law has lost the argument, and suggests that, applied appropriately, the rule "should function less as a conversation ender and more as a conversation starter." In an interview with Time Magazine, Godwin said that making comparisons to Hitler would actually be appropriate under the right circumstances:

I urge people to develop enough perspective to do it thoughtfully. If you think the comparison is valid, and you've given it some thought, do it. All I ask you to do is think about the human beings capable of acting very badly. We have to keep the magnitude of those events in mind, and not be glib. Our society needs to be more humane, more civilized and to grow up.

In August 2017, while commenting on the Unite the Right rally in Charlottesville, Virginia, Godwin himself endorsed and encouraged social-media users to compare its "alt-right" participants to Nazis.

Godwin has denied the need to update or amend the rule. In June 2018, he wrote, in an opinion piece for the Los Angeles Times: "It still serves us as a tool to recognize specious comparisons to Nazism – but also, by contrast, to recognize comparisons that aren't." Additionally, when a potential subject of Godwin's law seems "intent on making the Hitler comparison", the comparison with fascism may be appropriate rather than devaluing the argument; a "MAGA" corollary to the Law recognizes the pernicious embrace of Nazi-inspired tropes and phrases by the "alt-right".

In 2023, Godwin published an opinion on The Washington Post stating "Yes, it's okay to compare Trump to Hitler. Don't let me stop you." In the article, Godwin says "But when people draw parallels between Donald Trump’s 2024 candidacy and Hitler’s progression from fringe figure to Great Dictator, we aren’t joking. Those of us who hope to preserve our democratic institutions need to underscore the resemblance before we enter the twilight of American democracy."

See also

References

  1. ^ Godwin, Mike (October 1, 1994). "Meme, Counter-meme". Wired. Vol. 2, no. 10. Retrieved March 24, 2006.
  2. ^ Godwin, Mike (January 12, 1995). "Godwin's law of Hitler Analogies (and Corollaries)". "Net Culture – Humor" archive section. w2.EFF.org. Electronic Frontier Foundation. Archived from the original on August 29, 2012. Retrieved June 19, 2012.
  3. Godwin, Mike (August 18, 1991). "Re: Nazis (was Re: Card's Article on Homosexuality". Newsgroup: rec.arts.sf-lovers. Usenet: 1991Aug18.215029.19421@eff.org.
  4. McFarlane, Andrew (July 14, 2010). "Is it ever OK to call someone a Nazi?". BBC News Magazine. Retrieved August 4, 2010.
  5. Fishman, Aleisa; Godwin, Mike (September 1, 2011). "Interview with Mike Godwin". Voices on Antisemitism (Podcast). United States Holocaust Memorial Museum. Archived from the original on May 20, 2014.
  6. Goldacre, Ben (September 16, 2010). "Pope aligns atheists with Nazis. Bizarre. Transcript here". bengoldacre – secondary blog. Archived from the original on March 25, 2013.
  7. Stanley, Timothy (March 6, 2014). "Hillary, Putin's no Hitler". "Opinion" department. CNN. Retrieved March 6, 2014.
  8. "Godwin's law". Oxford English Dictionary. Oxford University Press. Retrieved February 27, 2013.
  9. Weigel, David (July 14, 2005). "Hands Off Hitler! It's time to repeal Godwin's Law". Reason. Archived from the original on July 15, 2009.
  10. "I Seem to Be a Verb: 18 Years of Godwin's Law". Jewcy.com. April 30, 2008. Archived from the original on January 15, 2013. Retrieved April 16, 2010.
  11. Harrison, Stephen (January 24, 2022). "Has Godwin's Law, the Rule of Nazi Comparisons, Been Disproved?". Slate. Retrieved April 23, 2022.
  12. Fariello, Gabriele; Jemielniak, Dariusz; Sulkowski, Adam (December 12, 2021). "Does Godwin's law (rule of Nazi analogies) apply in observable reality? An empirical study of selected words in 199 million Reddit posts". New Media & Society. 26. Sage Publishing: 389–404. doi:10.1177/14614448211062070. ISSN 1461-4448. S2CID 245035602.
  13. Chivers, Tom (October 23, 2009). "Internet rules and laws: The top 10, from Godwin to Poe". The Daily Telegraph. London.
  14. Datta, N. (June 20, 2017). "Godwin's Law – How Adolf Hitler Is Mathematically Connected To Internet Forum Discussions". Trove 42. Retrieved February 13, 2024.
  15. ^ Godwin, Mike (June 24, 2018). "Op-Ed: Do we need to update Godwin's Law about the probability of comparison to Nazis?". Los Angeles Times. Retrieved July 24, 2020.
  16. Hoffman, Ashley (June 29, 2017). "Should You Call Someone Hitler? Here's What the Man Behind Godwin's Law Thinks". Time. Retrieved February 13, 2024.
  17. Gilbert, Alexandre (August 17, 2017). "Godwin's Law & the Nazi Cosplay Hobbiysts". The Times of Israel.
  18. Mandelbaum, Ryan F. (August 13, 2017). "Godwin of Godwin's Law: 'By All Means, Compare These Shitheads to the Nazis'". Gizmodo. Retrieved December 26, 2023.
  19. Rampell, Catherine (September 24, 2024). "Trump gets compared with history's great villain because his rhetoric is that bad". Washington Post. Retrieved September 24, 2024.
  20. Godwin, Mike (December 20, 2023). "Yes, it's okay to compare Trump to Hitler. Don't let me stop you". The Washington Post. Retrieved November 22, 2024.

Further reading

External links

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