Misplaced Pages

Latest revision as of 01:01, 27 December 2024

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Wallace Fard Muhammad article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed Article policies Neutral point of view No original research Verifiability

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: 1, 2, 3Auto-archiving period: 6 months

This  level-5 vital article is rated B-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Biography This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Misplaced Pages's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography Michigan Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Michigan, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the U.S. state of Michigan on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.MichiganWikipedia:WikiProject MichiganTemplate:WikiProject MichiganMichigan Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. Illinois Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Illinois, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Illinois on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.IllinoisWikipedia:WikiProject IllinoisTemplate:WikiProject IllinoisWikiProject Illinois Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. African diaspora Top‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject African diaspora, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of African diaspora on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.African diasporaWikipedia:WikiProject African diasporaTemplate:WikiProject African diasporaAfrican diaspora Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale. Religion: New religious movements / Religious leaders Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Religion, a project to improve Misplaced Pages's articles on Religion-related subjects. Please participate by editing the article, and help us assess and improve articles to good and 1.0 standards, or visit the wikiproject page for more details.ReligionWikipedia:WikiProject ReligionTemplate:WikiProject ReligionReligion Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. This article is supported by New religious movements work group (assessed as High-importance). This article is within the scope of Religious leaders work group, a work group which is currently considered to be inactive. United States Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject United States, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of topics relating to the United States of America on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the ongoing discussions. Template Usage Articles Requested! Become a Member Project Talk Alerts United StatesWikipedia:WikiProject United StatesTemplate:WikiProject United StatesUnited States Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Efforts to trace Fard's history

This article tries to create a mystery around his "disappearance". He was simply deported, or fled America to Fiji to avoid prosecution (he was also being investigated for being a spy and helping the Japanese) around 1934, then returned as "Muhammad Abdullah".

Sources: Finding W.D. Fard: Unveiling the Identity of the Founder of the Nation of Islam By John Andrew Morrow link

^Escanaba Daily Press (November 24, 1932) on the murder committed by Robert Harris. It says that Wallace Fard "is awaiting an immigration hearing. Officials said he came to the United States from Asia." link.

^His two findagrave.com profiles link, link

From his findagrave.com profile: "What is certain, is that he was in Fiji from 1934 until roughly 1959"

^Warith Deen Muhammad claimed that Fard had returned to the United States under the name Muhammad Abdullah. In 1976, W.D. had appointed Muhammad Abdullah as imam of Muhammad's Mosque #77 in Oakland, California. The November 26, 1976, issue of the NOI journal Bilalian News reports Muhammad Abdullah's first khutbah at the mosque and shows a photo. W.D. Mohammad did not state that Muhammad Abdullah was Fard until after Abdullah's death in 1992.

Here he is with Louis Farrakhan and Jim Jones in 1976:

https://calisphere.org/item/7c7690dd7f54dc713239e1a824301a26/ (source album: https://calisphere.org/collections/27519)

Video of him using the name Muhammad Abdullah in 1977:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cgu33pkLsis&feature=emb_title (original source: https://diva.sfsu.edu/collections/sfbatv/bundles/229337)

Video of him using the name Muhammad Abdullah in 1989:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZ0lnqQPybM

Excessive detail in Efforts to trace Fard's origin and fate section

It seems to me that there is an excessive amount of detail about the lives of people who have been speculated to be Fard. For example, I don't see how it is relevant to the article or useful to the reader to know about the vacation which Fred Dodd took. In addition, there is nothing in the article explaining a link between Fred Walldad and Fard, and I can't find anything online.

I'm not an expert and I don't want to unilaterally remove information, but it seems to me that this section could use some cleaning up. Other input would be appreciated. LemonOrangeLime (talk) 14:00, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

I actually anticipated this concern. Whole books have been written about Fard's origins, and our readers should be able to learn about the contents of those books -- but on the other hand, even if Fard really was a Tamale vendor in Oregon earlier in life, what does it matter to his legacy?

I didn't know if anyone would have this concern but myself, but now that you have shared it, my proposal would be to split off this content in to a subarticle about Fard's origins, so that the casual reader of the biography doesn't have to get mired down in details that the historians document. Does that plan sound good to you? Feoffer (talk) 23:21, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

A year late to the party but what happened to this guy and where he's from does not seem undue weight to me, as so many works seem to exclusively focus on it. Honestly it's probably enough to sustain its own article on a purely GNG basis, though I'm not sure if that's the best way to organize it strictly. Could be. PARAKANYAA (talk) 09:23, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

Lead image

The arguments for replacing the mugshot with the unfree image are “never been confirmed to be him” and “considered offensive”. “Offensive” isn’t a valid reason per WP:NOTCENSORED so that leaves “never confirmed to be him” which is presented without evidence. Plus another apparently public domain image (file:WDFardcloseup.jpg) exists so if it’s really an issue we can just crop that one. Dronebogus (talk) 23:02, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

It would violate NPOV to lead the article with an obscure mugshot to represent the founder of a religion which uses a historic photo for veneration. Additionally, we need the NoI official portrait so readers can do facial comparisons themselves between the NoI founder and the various photographs of people purported to be Fard. NOTCENSORED doesn't enter into it -- the mug shots are all still in the article. Feoffer (talk) 00:35, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

You failed to explain why either image supposedly isn’t him. Also NPOV doesn’t apply at all to what is essentially a copyright problem, unless you’re specifically arguing for a more flattering portrait for its own sake (which would be NPOV on your part) Dronebogus (talk) 16:29, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

You failed to explain why either image supposedly isn’t him. Well that's because I tend to think all the images likely are of the same subject -- but that's a controversial statement, even amongst historians. NoI members have historically rejected as a matter of faith that the other images are of Fard.

unless you’re specifically arguing for a more flattering portrait for its own sake

Not 'flattering', per se -- but a historic image of the subject in his role as religious leader is a more informative and higher-quality depiction than a mere mug shot or newspaper clipping. Mug shots are rarely used as primary image for individuals who have notability outside of crimes. Feoffer (talk) 23:44, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

The latter isn’t an excuse to violate fair use rules and quite frankly I don’t care what the NoI thinks because they also think white people are evil devils created by a mad scientist. Dronebogus (talk) 00:41, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

The official portrait is completely valid under our fair use rules. I don’t care what the NoI thinks because they also think white people are evil devils created by a mad scientist.

You're free not to care, but NPOV requires us to lead with a representative image of the subject as he is typically shown -- that's the NoI portrait. The lead image of Muhammad is caligraphy, since that's how he's typically depicted. Joseph Smith's lead image is his historic portrait, not the recently-discovered photograph of him. Feoffer (talk) 01:39, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

Regrettably to some, but police mug shots and newspaper photo clippings are the only true photographs of the NOI founder. According to Elijah Muhammad's son, Wallace (Warithuddin) Mohammed, the official NOI portrait of the NOI founder was a "cosmetic or doctored" photo of Wallace Fard. Elijah Muhammad's son said the NOI founder used a perming application to straighten his curly wavy-like hair before sitting for the portrait that became the official NOI portrait of Wallace Fard. This description of Fard with curly hair is in line with every mug shot of the criminal Wallace Ford of California who is actually Wallace Fard. Elijah's son added that his father, Elijah Muhammad had many other pictures of the NOI founder which he did not allow members to see. RESUME BYRON 2600:1700:72EA:E880:CD2C:202:B1BD:3FB6 (talk) 04:37, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

In principle this was an inappropriate NFCC photo, since there were free alternatives. For the same reason that if there are free images of someone as a child, you cannot use any non free photo of them under our NFCC rules, even if the image of them as a child is not representative. It is weird but how this goes.

I agree that using the mugshot for the lead photo would be problematic since he's not an exclusively criminal figure, but the closeup image would have been better - though I suppose that could also be deemed problematic since it was involved in a police investigation but that isn't immediately evident by looking at it. If all of the free alternatives are problematic the alternative would be no image.

However, the image was free anyway, because 1930s sects and newspapers weren't very good at adhering to the letter of copyright law. So problem solved. PARAKANYAA (talk) 09:22, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

He was 100% a black supremacist

He was a member of the moorish science temple of america, a black supremacist cult, before he left and founded the nation of islam, another black supremacist cult, he taught that black people were the original humans on earth until a scientist named Yakub created "white devils" using eugenics, he was a black supremacist, Elijah Muhammad said multiple times Wallace taught him the Yakub story. 2804:6A00:F014:8700:E9CD:1795:346B:1EC3 (talk) 16:41, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

Do you have any sources that support any of this? Slatersteven (talk) 17:03, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

"MUH SOURCES"

lmao, pathetic, any simple google search will tell you pretty much the same things as i said, even the article on him mentions this, go back to reddit 2804:6A00:F014:8700:6D26:51B5:5C43:147F (talk) 11:20, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

Welcome to Misplaced Pages! Sorry to revert your changes, but I can't source them yet. (And I _have_ tried). Elijah Muhammad absolutely said W.D. Fard was a black supremacist -- but we don't know Elijah was telling the truth. Other of Fards followers said he used "Devils" to refer to ANY non-believer, not just whites. The recent breakthrough connecting Fard to Rutherford further strengthens the already-strong hypothesis that Fard's "devils" were different than Elijah Muhammad's "white devils". A further complication is that the term "black supremacist" is totally anachronistic to Fard's era, it's a phrasing from the 1960s.

To establish Fard as a black supremacist, we need a published source from BEFORE he left Detroit, ideally from a critic, accusing him of preaching something akin to what we modernly understand as black supremacy. I honestly don't doubt that datum exists, but damned if I or any scholar has found it yet. And if I can't source it, people like Slatersteven will absolutely remove it if I were to try to add it (as well they should!!!) Feoffer (talk) 17:58, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure that saying "black people are the original humans on earth until an evil scientist created white people using eugenics" 100% qualifies as black supremacy, even if the term didn't existed yet, just because the phrase didn't existed at the time doesn't mean the ideas didn't, black supremacy wasn't invented in the 1960's the TERM was coined in the 60's to refer to people that believed black people to be superior to white people. 2804:6A00:F014:8700:6D26:51B5:5C43:147F (talk) 11:26, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

I agree, there's lots of good reasons to suspect Fard _did_ teach something akin to "non-white supremacy" -- but I don't get to use my own opinions. Suppose someone says Fard never actually taught that part of the Yacub story -- that white people were inherently diabolical? Maybe that interpretation was Elijah's?

Note that even after the "voodoo murder", the Detroit police never accuse him of being "anti-white" -- and they WERE looking hard at him. There's also the sort of inherent cognitive dissonance of palefaced man preaching white folks are ALL devils. We have at least one firsthand witness insists Fard taught black people were devils too. Feoffer (talk) 14:18, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

"here's also the sort of inherent cognitive dissonance of palefaced man preaching white folks are ALL devils"

i mean as you said, cognitive disonance, there's lot of self-hating whites that have white guilt, also maybe he didnt actually believed any of the junk he preached and only did that for the money. 2804:6A00:F014:8700:6D26:51B5:5C43:147F (talk) 17:48, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

I agree, and I strongly suspect we will find that Fard did preach non-white superiority. Whatever his skin color, he did time in a colored prison and thus certainly would have felt he was a black man in the eyes of America. But damn if I can prove it yet. Keep looking -- we really just need one good new article from before disappears where he talks about Yakub or white devils and we'd have it. Feoffer (talk) 01:54, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

The story of Yakub first originated on the writings of Wallace Fard Muhammad, the founder of the Nation of Islam, in his doctrinal Q&A pamphlet Lost Found Moslem Lesson No. 2 from the early 1930s. 2804:29B8:509E:616D:301E:3AD9:462C:83BA (talk) 17:43, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

besides, on wallace being a former member of the moorish science temple of america(from the same article):

Potential link to Moorish Science Temple of America

In addition to his assertion that Fard was Ford, Evanzz also said that Fard was once a member of the Moorish Science Temple of America, citing as a primary source the 1945 publication by Arna Bontemps and Jack Conroy titled They Seek A City. Authors have also cited E. U. Essien-Udom for this proposition as well. In his 1962 book Black Nationalism: The Search for an Identity, Essien-Udom wrote:

Noble Drew Ali was shot and stabbed in his offices at the Unity Club in Chicago on the night of March 15, 1929. … He was eventually released on bond, but a few weeks later, he died under mysterious circumstances. Some people claim that he died from injuries inflicted by the police while he was in jail. Others, however, suggest that he was killed by Greene's partisans. For some time, one W. D. Fard assumed leadership of the Moorish movement. According to Bontemps and Conroy, Fard claimed that he was the reincarnation of Noble Drew Ali. By 1930 a permanent split developed in the movement. One faction, the Moors, remains faithful to Noble Drew Ali, and the other, which is now led by Elijah Muhammad, remains faithful to Prophet Fard (Master Wallace Fard Muhammad). However, Minister Malcolm X and other leaders of the Nation of Islam have emphatically denied any past connection whatsoever of Elijah Muhammad, Master Wallace Fard Muhammad, or their movement with Nobel Drew Ali's Moorish American Science Temple.

On the question of a connection between the Nation of Islam and the Moorish Science Temple of America, Beynon wrote:

Awakened already to a consciousness of race discrimination, these migrants from the South came into contact with militant movements among northern Negroes. Practically none of them had been in the North prior to the collapse of the Marcus Garvey movement. A few of them had come under the influence of the Moorish-American cult which succeeded it. The effect of both these movements upon the future members of the Nation of Islam was largely indirect. Garvey taught the Negroes that their homeland was Ethiopia. The Noble Drew Ali, the prophet of the Moorish-Americans, proclaimed that these people were 'descendants of Morrocans '.

Beynon further wrote: "The prophet's message was characterized by his ability to utilize to the fullest measure the environment of his followers. Their physical and economic difficulties alike were used to illustrate the new teaching. Similarly, biblical prophecies and the teachings of Marcus Garvey and Noble Drew Ali were cited as foretelling the coming of the new prophet." Bowen rejects claims that Fard was a member of the MSTA as unsubstantiated. 2804:6A00:F014:8700:6D26:51B5:5C43:147F (talk) 11:28, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

""MUH SOURCES"" sorry but read wp:policy nothing can be added to an article unless it is cited to RS. Slatersteven (talk) 15:29, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

lmao, i already gave you sources showing he was probably a member of the moorish science temple of america, also the sources wikipedia considers as "reliable" are a joke, they can go to actual reliable sources to garbage like the ADL, also primary sources>>>secondary sources, but not according to this website i guess... 2804:6A00:F014:8700:6D26:51B5:5C43:147F (talk) 17:45, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

So they call him a white supremacist, or is that your interpretation? Slatersteven (talk) 10:21, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

what are you even talking about? nowhere in the primary historical sources and police records of the time call him a white supremacist, in fact, if you look at what he taught about Yakub as well as pretty much everything about the NOI, you will see he was the exact opposite of white supremacist, even if the term black supremacist did not exist until the 60's, he still taught some form of non-white supremacy. 2804:29B8:509E:616D:301E:3AD9:462C:83BA (talk) 17:41, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Voodoo murder

I feel this part is abruptly introduced and then isn't covered in great detail - not that it needs to be in a biography of Fard, but as a controversy so tied to the NoI I would think it would be covered in greater detail somewhere! The NoI article just says the killer was declared insane and gives no detail. Is the murder itself notable, you think? Or is this just not mentioned in great detail in more sources? If it's all there is that's how it is but I find the details given here fascinating. PARAKANYAA (talk) 09:27, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

Oh yes, I meant to get back to writing that up. I'll start on it. Thanks for the request! Feoffer (talk) 09:50, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

Structuring

The content in this article is quite good but I think it is organized in a strange manner, different from any biography article I have seen. I think the content on his origins are encyclopedic and shouldn't be trimmed but the way we are currently presenting it strikes me as unsatisfactory.

We could split it into an article called maybe, Origins of Wallace Fard Muhammad, and then have a summary of that on this article as an "Early life" type thing. I think the speculations on his later life can stay here. There are other things we can do. As is though this feels very... odd. PARAKANYAA (talk) 21:53, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, I've meant to fork this off to a sub-article. Doing that now. Feoffer (talk) 00:04, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for all the requests/suggestions you've made. Writing in a vacuum is hard, very helpful to have an 'editor' who can help guide you. Thanks! Feoffer (talk) 11:42, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Yeah I feel that haha.

In any case, the article is now much better. Far clearer, good job. PARAKANYAA (talk) 01:01, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

• B-Class level-5 vital articles
• Misplaced Pages level-5 vital articles in People
• B-Class vital articles in People
• B-Class biography articles
• WikiProject Biography articles
• B-Class Michigan articles
• Mid-importance Michigan articles
• WikiProject Michigan articles
• B-Class WikiProject Illinois articles
• Mid-importance WikiProject Illinois articles
• B-Class African diaspora articles
• Top-importance African diaspora articles
• WikiProject African diaspora articles
• B-Class Religion articles
• Mid-importance Religion articles
• B-Class New religious movements articles
• High-importance New religious movements articles
• New religious movements articles
• WikiProject Religion articles
• B-Class United States articles
• Low-importance United States articles
• B-Class United States articles of Low-importance
• WikiProject United States articles