Revision as of 11:54, 9 July 2023 editCrainsaw (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users3,166 edits →A monumental scandal: ReplyTag: Reply← Previous edit |
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{{WikiProject banner shell|collapsed=yes|class=B|vital=yes|living=no|listas=Copernicus, Nicolaus|1= |
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{{WikiProject Christianity|importance=Top|lutheranism=yes|lutheranism-importance=Low|catholicism=yes|catholicism-importance=Low|anglicanism=yes|anglicanism-importance=Mid|saints=yes|saints-importance=Mid}} |
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{{WikiProject Biography|living=no|class=B|core=yes|s&a-work-group=yes|s&a-priority=Top|listas=Copernicus, Nicolaus|a&e-work-group=yes|a&e-priority=Top}} |
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{{WikiProject Christianity|class=B|importance=Top|lutheranism=yes|lutheranism-importance=Low|catholicism=yes|catholicism-importance=Low|anglicanism=yes|anglicanism-importance=Mid|saints=yes|saints-importance=Mid}} |
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The same information is also provided by {{cite journal|first1=David Eugene|last1=Smith|author-link1=David Eugene Smith|url=https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7927718/?page=5|title=Medicine and Mathematics in the Sixteenth Century|PMC=7927718|PMID= 33943138|journal=Ann Med Hist.|date=July 1, 1917|volume= 1|issue=2|pages=125–140|format=PDF|OCLC=12650954|access-date=July 15, 2021|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210515201754/https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7927718/pdf/annmedhist148575-0021.pdf|archive-date=May 15, 2021|url-status=live}} (here cited p. 129). This book dates back to 1917 and is also an alternative source about the Copernicus' masters of mathematics and astronomy: Peuerbach, Regiomontanus, Domenico Maria, and Brudzewski. All of them are actually sourced by a unique monography (Dobrzycki and Hajdukiewicz (1969)). Regards, Theologian81sp |
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The same information is also provided by {{cite journal|first1=David Eugene|last1=Smith|author-link1=David Eugene Smith|url=https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7927718/?page=5|title=Medicine and Mathematics in the Sixteenth Century|PMC=7927718|PMID= 33943138|journal=Ann Med Hist.|date=July 1, 1917|volume= 1|issue=2|pages=125–140|format=PDF|OCLC=12650954|access-date=July 15, 2021|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210515201754/https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7927718/pdf/annmedhist148575-0021.pdf|archive-date=May 15, 2021|url-status=live}} (here cited p. 129). This book dates back to 1917 and is also an alternative source about the Copernicus' masters of mathematics and astronomy: Peuerbach, Regiomontanus, Domenico Maria, and Brudzewski. All of them are actually sourced by a unique monography (Dobrzycki and Hajdukiewicz (1969)). Regards, Theologian81sp |
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== A monumental scandal == |
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== In the "Theology" section, the information differs from its source. == |
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An enormous bulk of evidence about Copernicus having been ethnically German and of Polonising German topography has been "archived". The present article carefully avoids the terms German or Polish for the ethnicity of the man because the evidence is clear that he was German - with a German father and a German mother, who will have taught him the German and not the Polish language. And the article Polonises all place names in Prussia that got Polish names only in the 20th century, but misses out on Danzig. - A monumental scandal and a disgusting disgrace. ] (]) 23:21, 19 May 2023 (UTC) |
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In the "'''Theology'''" section, early on, there are a number of quotes to a controversy with Calvin. This controversy is supported by sources 112 and 113 (https://www.jstor.org/stable/2708147). It turns out that such a source explains that the aforementioned quotes from Calvin are not actually found in the writings of that author, but in the words of Bertrand Russel who, in turn, makes no mention of a source. It should be noted that this ''source'' is ], an expert in Copernicus. |
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:True, but both sides have valid arguments, it's best to leave nationality out of this ] (]) 19:55, 29 May 2023 (UTC) |
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Furthermore, such quotations attributed to Calvin against Copernicus are now recognized as non-existent. Russell probably obtained the "citations" via ] and his "]", where they first appear. The Misplaced Pages article on White's book itself exposes the situation. |
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::No they don't it's not even a discussion. He was quite obviously ethnically German but wikipedia is leftist political propaganda at it's finest. This site truly has become a disgrace. ] (]) 11:47, 9 July 2023 (UTC) |
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:::I would say Misplaced Pages is Western-centered and racist towards Eastern and Central Europeans with figures such as Copernicus or Sklodowska-Curie being Westernized in articles (which itself on the main webpage with news and trivia mentions in 90% only West-related things and takes Western perspective. Ergo, it's not international but English/West-centered. |
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:::Now not mentioning Copernicus nationality because it's not relevant is fairly silly concerning the fact that somehow other figures of that time like let's say Durer or Caravaggio magically have some nationality. ] (]) 20:58, 23 April 2024 (UTC) |
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:The current article represents a hard-earned consensus, after monumental disruption by editors who aggressively espoused competing assertions of nationality. Please don't start that again. '''<span style="font-family: Arial;">] <small>]</small></span>''' 19:59, 29 May 2023 (UTC) |
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:We have been through this. Several times. There are definitive arguments for Copernicus being a loyal subject of the Polish crown in territory ultimately subject to the Polish king - which is a good definition of being Polish. There is the definitive argument of Copernicus subscribing to the German Natio in Bologna and his suriving works in German (and Latin). The rest is more or less speculation (some more, some less). We DO know that this debate runs over centuries now, and finding a consensus here took a decade or two. Just accept him to be in the heritage of both nations, at best a connecting rather then a dividing aspect of history. ] (]) 06:48, 19 June 2023 (UTC) |
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Finally, I myself possess all of Calvin's commentaries, including those of Genesis and Psalms, cited in this article (about Copernicus) and I can state that there is no similar quote. In fact, there is no citation to Copernicus' name in Calvin's work, either positive or negative. |
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::He was Half-Polish by birth, German in name, but he lived in Poland, it half because Lived in Poland+Half polsh= Half Polish, and German in name+Half German=Half German ] (]) 09:09, 19 June 2023 (UTC) |
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:::NO. What's that even supposed to mean? By birth? He was born in a German family in a German build, German inhabited city. You people are insane. ] (]) 11:49, 9 July 2023 (UTC) |
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::::It is likely his father was a Germanized Pole, he also spent years in Polish cities and universities, such as ] in Krakow. ] (]) 11:54, 9 July 2023 (UTC) |
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::::The definition of leftist isn't anything you happen to disagree with. In fact, the view of Copernicus as Polish is popular with the Right in Eastern Europe. ] (]) 12:02, 9 July 2023 (UTC) |
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::::This is nonsense. His father Mikołaj Kopernik, after whom Copernicus got his name and surname, was a Pole from Kraków, his mother Barbara Watzenrode was a German from Toruń. Copernicus himself was born in Polish Prussia, spent his childhood there, then graduated from the Kraków Academy and later several other European universities, then returned to Poland and actively fought against the germanization of Prussia by the German Teutonic Order. He took part in the Polish-Teutonic War of 1519–1521 on the side of Poland. You can't make a full German out of him, no matter how much you want to, don't rewrite history. ] (]) 16:50, 24 July 2023 (UTC) |
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:::::>"This is nonsense." |
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:::::Is it necessary to start your contribution this way? You could simply present your source. Especially when... |
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:::::>"His father Mikołaj Kopernik, after whom Copernicus got his name and surname, was a Pole from Kraków" |
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:::::... makes these sources obligatory. The problem is that there is no primary source that can confirm this, just speculation from various scholars, who often have their bias - unless I am mistaken and new evidence was unveiled. Coming from Krakow is no proof of cultural heritage with around 20% Germans there at that time. |
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:::::There is not much that we DO know for sure, and I already listed it. It is insufficient to decide one way or the other, and Misplaced Pages can but record it this way. |
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:::::Both Poland and Germany had multicultural states on their territory back around 1500, with cultural Poles living in Germany and cultural Germans in Poland - a status that creates many people in between and that continues one way or the other since today. If anything, Copernicus ambiguity in that regard embodies this bond. ] (]) 12:02, 28 July 2023 (UTC) |
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::::::Neitzer Germany nor Poland had ever multicultural states on their territories. ] (]) 09:23, 14 November 2023 (UTC) |
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:::::::The HRE, the Empire, covered Frisians, French, Italian, Danish and many Slavian areas. There were also many German areas outside of it. |
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:::::::The Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth included, beside Germans and Hungarians, a multitude of Slavic cultures from the Baltics through Ruthenia to the Black Sea. ] (]) 06:05, 6 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:The Polonising of the names of German cities and regions that became occupied by Poles only in the 20th century is infantile, mad and disgusting. ] (]) 09:21, 14 November 2023 (UTC) |
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::And this is not a forum for nationalist complaints. '''<span style="font-family: Arial;">] <small>]</small></span>''' 12:29, 14 November 2023 (UTC) |
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:::If in doubt, use the regulations of the Gdańsk (Danzig) Vote. See the intro of this article. ] (]) 06:07, 6 December 2023 (UTC) |
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== Silesian roots == |
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Therefore, it would be fair to '''completely remove the references to Calvin''', because: |
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"His father was a merchant from Kraków (Krakau) and his mother was the daughter of a wealthy Toruń merchant.[13" |
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1) they are unlikely (Calvin simply does not address the issue raised by Copernicus anywhere); |
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But: the father´s side of Upper Silesian and the mother´s side od Lower Silesian origin. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 20:11, 26 December 2023 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--><br> |
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2) refers to indirect citations that do not cite sources; |
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Why (Krakau)?] (]) 23:45, 12 March 2024 (UTC) |
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3) misuses the source, as the author is denouncing the fact that the quote to Calvin does not refer to the original source. |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 28 April 2024 == |
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The text would then look like this (first paragraph of "Theology"): |
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"'''Tolosani may have criticized the Copernican theory as scientifically unproven and unfounded, but the theory also conflicted with the theology of the time. One sharp point of conflict''' " |
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{{Edit semi-protected|Nicolaus Copernicus|answered=yes}} |
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'''An alternative would be to amend the text,''' explaining that this was an idea popularized by White (and then Russell), but that it does not match reality, citing the same sources that exist in the articles about White and his book. |
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In the "Commemoration" section of the article, in the subsection titled "Poland", in the second paragraph change the " in Poland's third largest city, Łódź." to " in Poland's fourth largest city, Łódź." |
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In the article the city of Łódź is called Poland's third largest city. In the data provided in the (data from 20th July 2023), the population of Łódź city has dropped and currently city of Wrocław has surpassed Łódź in the number of population. ] (]) 10:59, 28 April 2024 (UTC) |
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] (]) 17:17, 28 June 2022 (UTC) |
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<!-- Template:Unsigned --><span class="autosigned" style="font-size:85%;">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 15:22, 28 June 2022 (UTC)</span> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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:{{done}}<!-- Template:ESp --> This is also verified and cited on the ] page. ] (]) 18:58, 28 April 2024 (UTC) |
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:You are mistaken about the quotations of Calvin. There are two such quotations given in the ''Theology'' section of the article. Rosen, in the article of his that you cite, attributes ''both of them directly'' to Calvin (on pages 437 and 438), citing a 1948 re-issue of John King's translation of Calvin's ''Commentaries on the Book of Genesis'' () for the first, and a 1949 re-issue of James Anderson's translation of Calvin's ''Commentaries on the Book of Psalms'' () for the second. It's true, as Rosen documents, that anti-Copernican statements which Calvin never made have been misattributed to him, but these two quotations are not among them. The reasons you offer for completely removing the references to Calvin therefore don't stand up to scrutiny. However, I believe the truth of your parenthetical comment, "Calvin simply does not address the issue raised by Copernicus", is sufficient, just by itself, to justify the removal. |
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:] (]) 17:33, 3 August 2022 (UTC) |
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:ya ] (]) 00:51, 15 March 2023 (UTC) |
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::You are mistaken about the quotations of Calvin. There are two such quotations given in the Theology section of the article. Rosen, in the article of his that you cite, attributes both of them directly to Calvin (on pages 437 and 438), citing a 1948 re-issue of John King's translation of Calvin's Commentaries on the Book of Genesis (Vol.I, p.61) for the first, and a 1949 re-issue of James Anderson's translation of Calvin's Commentaries on the Book of Psalms (Vol.IV, pp.6-7) for the second. It's true, as Rosen documents, that anti-Copernican statements which Calvin never made have been misattributed to him, but these two quotations are not among them. The reasons you offer for completely removing the references to Calvin therefore don't stand up to scrutiny. However, I believe the truth of your parenthetical comment, "Calvin simply does not address the issue raised by Copernicus", is sufficient, just by itself, to justify the removal. ] (]) 00:53, 15 March 2023 (UTC) |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 14 May 2024 == |
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== someone please correct small grammar issue == |
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{{Edit semi-protected|Nicolaus Copernicus|answered=yes}} |
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Near the beginning of the article it says that he was active as a mathematician, an astronomer, and Catholic canon. That's ungrammatical. Someone please correct it, e.g., to: active in mathematics, astronomy, and Cathologic canon. (I don't have an account, and don't want one, so I cannot correct it myself.) ] (]) 13:58, 18 July 2022 (UTC) |
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in the Work section, "till" is used in "(or perhaps till his uncle's death on 29 March 1512)" and i believe this should be changed to until ] (]) 16:46, 14 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:{{done}}<!-- Template:ESp --> ] (]) 17:30, 14 May 2024 (UTC) |
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== Extended-protected status? == |
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:I fail to see the grammatical error. On the other hand, the existing statement says that he acted in different professions, not just doing a bit of math, astronomy and especially canon. So as a non-native speaker I cannot judge whether the existing sentence is grammatically wrong, but I know that your version does not carry the meaning that is supposed to be there. Just to explain why I will not follow your request. ] (]) 14:28, 25 July 2022 (UTC) |
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::how do you know ] (]) 00:51, 15 March 2023 (UTC) |
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I propose that this article be given extended-protected status. It is experiencing an onslaught of neo-nazis. ] (]) 17:44, 22 August 2024 (UTC) |
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== "Nicolaus Copernicus/Archive 3" listed at ] == |
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] |
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An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect ] and has thus listed it ]. This discussion will occur at {{slink|Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 December 30#Nicolaus Copernicus/Archive 3}} until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. <!-- from Template:RFDNote --> Regards, ]<sup>]</sup> 06:27, 30 December 2022 (UTC) |
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== "Nicolaus Copernicus/Archive 2" listed at ] == |
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] |
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An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect ] and has thus listed it ]. This discussion will occur at {{slink|Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 December 30#Nicolaus Copernicus/Archive 2}} until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. <!-- from Template:RFDNote --> Regards, ]<sup>]</sup> 06:27, 30 December 2022 (UTC) |
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== 550th birthday == |
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== Successors == |
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The article's "]" section states that "Scholars hold that sixty years after the publication of ''The Revolutions'' there were only around 15 astronomers espousing Copernicanism in all of Europe..." |
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is today 19th February 2023. The , organised to mark the 550th anniversary of the birth of Nicolaus Copernicus, will begin on February 19th with at NCU Nicolaus Copernicus University in Toruń, later in other cities. The twitter account of "The Chancellery of the Prime Minister or Poland" (] since 2017) "„Stopped the Sun, moved the Earth”. #OTD we celebrate 550th anniversary of the birth of Nicolaus #Copernicus, the Polish Renaissance man who presented the first, since Ancient Greece, heliocentric model of the Solar System. Copernicus is the parton of 2023." ] (]) 14:20, 19 February 2023 (UTC) |
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That implies that all the 15 listed would have survived to the year 1603. |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 18 May 2023 == |
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At least two of them died before then: ] (1550) and ] (1574). |
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{{Edit semi-protected|Nicolaus Copernicus|answered=yes}} |
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Grammatical corrections? ] (]) 22:32, 18 May 2023 (UTC) |
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:I'd be happy to make any corrections - feel free to list the changes you'd like to make here and they will be made on your behalf. ] (]) 23:04, 18 May 2023 (UTC) |
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] (]) 04:24, 7 September 2024 (UTC) |
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== A monumental scandal == |
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== Nationality == |
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An enormous bulk of evidence about Copernicus having been ethnically German and of Polonising German topography has been "archived". The present article carefully avoids the terms German or Polish for the ethnicity of the man because the evidence is clear that he was German - with a German father and a German mother, who will have taught him the German and not the Polish language. And the article Polonises all place names in Prussia that got Polish names only in the 20th century, but misses out on Danzig. - A monumental scandal and a disgusting disgrace. ] (]) 23:21, 19 May 2023 (UTC) |
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:True, but both sides have valid arguments, it's best to leave nationality out of this ] (]) 19:55, 29 May 2023 (UTC) |
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Should we assume Copernicus' nationality can be ]? ] (]) 23:11, 14 November 2024 (UTC) |
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::No they don't it's not even a discussion. He was quite obviously ethnically German but wikipedia is leftist political propaganda at it's finest. This site truly has become a disgrace. ] (]) 11:47, 9 July 2023 (UTC) |
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:The current article represents a hard-earned consensus, after monumental disruption by editors who aggressively espoused competing assertions of nationality. Please don't start that again. '''<span style="font-family: Arial;">] <small>]</small></span>''' 19:59, 29 May 2023 (UTC) |
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:Do you have NEW evidence that goes beyond those that have been debated here for a decade or two? |
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:We have been through this. Several times. There are definitive arguments for Copernicus being a loyal subject of the Polish crown in territory ultimately subject to the Polish king - which is a good definition of being Polish. There is the definitive argument of Copernicus subscribing to the German Natio in Bologna and his suriving works in German (and Latin). The rest is more or less speculation (some more, some less). We DO know that this debate runs over centuries now, and finding a consensus here took a decade or two. Just accept him to be in the heritage of both nations, at best a connecting rather then a dividing aspect of history. ] (]) 06:48, 19 June 2023 (UTC) |
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:If not, leave it as it is. |
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::He was Half-Polish by birth, German in name, but he lived in Poland, it half because Lived in Poland+Half polsh= Half Polish, and German in name+Half German=Half German ] (]) 09:09, 19 June 2023 (UTC) |
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:See my above comment that starts with "We have been through this". ] (]) 22:40, 12 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:::NO. What's that even supposed to mean? By birth? He was born in a German family in a German build, German inhabited city. You people are insane. ] (]) 11:49, 9 July 2023 (UTC) |
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::::It is likely his father was a Germanized Pole, he also spent years in Polish cities and universities, such as ] in Krakow. ] (]) 11:54, 9 July 2023 (UTC) |
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The current WP article refers of his son Andreas in the role of Augustianin canon of the Cathedral of Frauenburg. But the same charge took to Nicolaus, in 1497, when he was in Italy yet (source: Holmes Charles Nevers, Popular Astronomy, Vol. 24, p. 219, in SAO/NASA Astrophysics Data System (ADS)).
An enormous bulk of evidence about Copernicus having been ethnically German and of Polonising German topography has been "archived". The present article carefully avoids the terms German or Polish for the ethnicity of the man because the evidence is clear that he was German - with a German father and a German mother, who will have taught him the German and not the Polish language. And the article Polonises all place names in Prussia that got Polish names only in the 20th century, but misses out on Danzig. - A monumental scandal and a disgusting disgrace. 2001:9E8:25F:FD00:E9AB:E4CF:D944:B901 (talk) 23:21, 19 May 2023 (UTC)
In the "Commemoration" section of the article, in the subsection titled "Poland", in the second paragraph change the " in Poland's third largest city, Łódź." to " in Poland's fourth largest city, Łódź."
In the article the city of Łódź is called Poland's third largest city. In the data provided in the Polish Misplaced Pages (data from 20th July 2023), the population of Łódź city has dropped and currently city of Wrocław has surpassed Łódź in the number of population. BlueBlack22 (talk) 10:59, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
in the Work section, "till" is used in "(or perhaps till his uncle's death on 29 March 1512)" and i believe this should be changed to until Maddybac (talk) 16:46, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
I propose that this article be given extended-protected status. It is experiencing an onslaught of neo-nazis. Meellk (talk) 17:44, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
That implies that all the 15 listed would have survived to the year 1603.