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Revision as of 16:26, 20 March 2007 editPiotrus (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Event coordinators, Extended confirmed users, File movers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers285,867 editsNo edit summary← Previous edit Latest revision as of 03:59, 7 February 2023 edit undoMalnadachBot (talk | contribs)11,637,095 editsm Fixed Lint errors. (Task 12)Tag: AWB 
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:''The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a ]). No further edits should be made to this page. ''
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The result was '''DELETED''' as an attack page and highly speculative original research, all wrapped up in one. I've disregarded the nose count on this one, due to the off-wiki vote stumping. - ] <small>(] | ])</small> 07:23, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
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:{{la|Internet troll squads}} – <includeonly>(])</includeonly><noinclude>(])</noinclude> :{{la|Internet troll squads}} – <includeonly>(])</includeonly><noinclude>(])</noinclude>
Original research devised from two tangentially related articles. Essentially an attack page against Putin. ] ] ] 04:54, 17 March 2007 (UTC) Original research devised from two tangentially related articles. Essentially an attack page against Putin. ] ] ] 04:54, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
:''<Lengthy comment moved to talk preserving order>'' ] 15:24, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
* '''Comment''' This page also derives from a series of incivil edits on ]. This article was created in essence to accuse several editors, including administrator ] of editing on behalf of the KGB. ] ] ] 05:02, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
**'''Comment''' While I respect you as an administrator, there is nothing on the article that accuses any editors of editing on behalf of the "KGB" (in actuality, it's the FSB, but that's another story). That is extremely unfair to accuse him of saying that, as I was the one who made those comments, whereas he only wrote an article about internet troll squads. As well, I would like to point out that no one is mentioned in the article, so I feel like that you are really being judgmental.] 20:29, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' Looks like a hoax to me, but I can't read Russian either, so the sources really mean nothing to me. If its not a joke, perhaps '''Merge''' with ]] 08:49, 17 March 2007 (UTC) *'''Delete''' Looks like a hoax to me, but I can't read Russian either, so the sources really mean nothing to me. If its not a joke, perhaps '''Merge''' with ]] 08:49, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' Looks like a conspiracy theory to me. -- ] 13:48, 17 March 2007 (UTC) *'''Delete''' Looks like a conspiracy theory to me. -- ] 13:48, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
<s>* '''Comment''' The sources are in english</s> Whoops, confused this with a different russian language article. ] ] ] 15:25, 17 March 2007 (UTC) * <s> '''Comment''' The sources are in english</s> Whoops, confused this with a different russian language article. ] ] ] 15:25, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
*''''Delete''' - Original research.--] 17:11, 17 March 2007 (UTC) *''''Delete''' - Original research.--] 17:11, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
*'''Speedy Delete''' - Except for being hoax, original research, and the term "troll squads" being coined by Biophys - the author of this article, this article was created by him in order to defame and slander me and Alex Bakharev. Please see the evidence here ] 17:16, 17 March 2007 (UTC) *'''Speedy Delete''' - Except for being hoax, original research, and the term "troll squads" being coined by Biophys - the author of this article, this article was created by him in order to defame and slander me and Alex Bakharev. Please see the evidence here ] 17:16, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
⚫ *'''Keep''' (I am creator of this article). '''First''', this is '''obviously''' not OR, which is claimed as the reason for deletion. Everything is taken from the sources. Article is based on <s>a single reliable source</s> ''at least four reliable sources now (see my reply below - "Thank you")'', which is perfectly consitent with Misplaced Pages policies. '''Second''', English translation of main source has been provided in the article. See: . So, could you please read this translation, and then decide if the subject is a "hoax" and notable. As explained on talk page, this is a reliable source. '''Third''', this article say nothing personal about Putin except that FSB workers admire him (which is probably true). So, this is not attack against Putin. '''Finally''', this article has not been created to accuse Misplaced Pages editors. I planned to create it long time ago, as anyone can see looking at my personal page ] and ] where the same source has been used. Further, I have never made any personal accusations of that kind. If someone else did, this is not my problem. The subject about "FSB trolls in Misplaced Pages" was opened by an anonymous user in talk page ], so I have mostly reacted on that. I also did not want people to discuss accusations not related to me at my talk page. ] 17:33, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

⚫ *'''Keep''' (I am creator of this article). '''First''', this is '''obviously''' not OR, which is claimed as the reason for deletion. Everything is taken from the sources. Article is based on a single reliable source, which is perfectly consitent with Misplaced Pages policies. '''Second''', English translation of main source has been provided in the article. See: . So, could you please read this translation, and then decide if the subject is a "hoax" and notable. As explained on talk page, this is a reliable source. '''Third''', this article say nothing personal about Putin except that FSB workers admire him (which is probably true). So, this is not attack against Putin. '''Finally''', this article has not been created to accuse Misplaced Pages editors. I planned to create it long time ago, as anyone can see looking at my personal page ] and ] where the same source has been used. Further, I have never made any personal accusations of that kind. If someone else did, this is not my problem. The subject about "FSB trolls in Misplaced Pages" was opened by an anonymous user in talk page ], so I have mostly reacted on that. I also did not want people to discuss accusations not related to me at my talk page. ] 17:33, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

'''Comment'''. Just a side comment. I think that comments and opinions like this one: ] ''undermine credibility of Misplaced Pages''. That was one of the reasons I have created this article. ''I think such questions must be openly debated.'' That is Misplaced Pages policy to openly debate any problems (but of course without personal offences). That is why I made this notice: If we delete this article now, then what this anonymous user and other people could think? They (not me!) will think: "Yes, of course, those KGB trolls could not tolerate such article in Misplaced Pages." Sorry, but they will think so. ] 17:45, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
::*'''Comment to your comment'''The Single translation is located at blogspot.com. A blog is not a reliable source.] 17:54, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
:::'''Reply.''' See ]. "Sources in other languages are acceptable if no English equivalents have been found. Published translations are preferred to editors' translations; when editors use their own translations, the original-language material should be provided too, preferably in a footnote, so that readers can check the translation for themselves." This is satisfied. Just in case, I will then copy the complete translation of the source to the article's talk page. See: ] ] 18:05, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
'''Just another comment''' User Biophys has been warned twice for uncivil behaviour: http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Archive78#If_this_a_personal_attack and here http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#Again_personal_attack_by_Biophys. So it's hard to belive that Biophys is concerned about Misplaced Pages. It was the Biophys who first claimed that KGB trolls are present in the Misplaced Pages by creating such an . So basically he wants to defame Wikipedians with this article - it is an attack page ]. Moreover, Biophys is the user who publishes in Misplaced Pages information taken from the blog La Rusophobe with telling name. His edits are directed against Russian government. He also tried twice to insert a text about Putin Phallus into the ] article. he tried to create an article in Misplaced Pages about blog La Russophobe but it was deleted.] 18:03, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
:'''Reply.''' Vlad has trolled Biophys constantly, and I feel that personal attacks do not belong here. ] 20:29, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
::'''Reply.''' Please see: ] ] ] 18:15, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
::::'''Reply to your Reply''' Please see ]. ] 18:16, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

*'''Delete''' - POV/OR. ] 18:00, 17 March 2007 (UTC) *'''Delete''' - POV/OR. ] 18:00, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' - no assertion of notability, no reliable sources ]. Probable OR. ] <sup> ]</sup> 22:55, 17 March 2007 (UTC) *'''Delete''' - no assertion of notability, no reliable sources ]. Probable OR. ] <sup> ]</sup> 22:55, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' - first of all, if this article was alone, it would probably only just be a weak delete; while there is one source provided, it does not back up any claim this this is either a notable or even realistic problem. Furthermore, this article appears to be some kind of personal vendetta the creator has against another Wikipedian - in my books, that's ]. --] 06:42, 18 March 2007 (UTC) *'''Delete''' - first of all, if this article was alone, it would probably only just be a weak delete; while there is one source provided, it does not back up any claim this this is either a notable or even realistic problem. Furthermore, this article appears to be some kind of personal vendetta the creator has against another Wikipedian - in my books, that's ]. --] 06:42, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. It's surely a conspiracy theory. ] 11:09, 18 March 2007 (UTC) *'''Delete'''. It's surely a conspiracy theory. ] 11:09, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
:'''Reply.'''. If it's surely a conspiracy theory, then you must have some proof that it is right? ] 20:29, 18 March 2007 (UTC) **'''Reply.'''. If it's surely a conspiracy theory, then you must have some proof that it is right? ] 20:29, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. I feel that while it is a good article, it needs more sources to cite for it to be as reliable as people want.] 20:29, 18 March 2007 (UTC) <s>*'''Delete'''. I feel that while it is a good article, it needs more sources to cite for it to be as reliable as people want.] 20:29, 18 March 2007 (UTC)</s>
**'''Keep''' I take back my delete vote, and now vote keep, as the article cites many more sources, and has been cleaned up greatly since creation. ] 21:12, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
*'''delete'''. OR, ], POV almost by definition. --] 00:02, 20 March 2007 (UTC) *'''delete'''. OR, ], POV almost by definition. --] 00:02, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
*'''Keep but rename'''. The phenomena is real, but the name seems to be ORish. The new name should be '''Interned disinformation by Russian intelligence agencies''' or such.--<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</span></sub> 16:26, 20 March 2007 (UTC) *'''Keep but rename'''. The phenomena is real, but the name seems to be ORish. The new name should be '''Interned disinformation by Russian intelligence agencies''' or such.--<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</span></sub> 16:26, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
*<small>'''Note''': This debate has been included in the ]. </small>
*<small>'''Note''': This debate has been included in the ]. </small> <small>—The preceding ] comment was added by ] (] • ]) 16:33, 20 March 2007 (UTC).</small><!-- HagermanBot Auto-Unsigned -->
*'''Speedy Delete''', ] G10, ]. - <b>]</b><small> ]</small> 16:36, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
*'''Keep''', '''Rename''' and '''Source''' ''<span style="color:#901;">/</span>'']] 16:50, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''. The best solution in these circumstances is to expand the article and add sources. ] (]) 02:30, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''. In addition to the case of disinformation by InoSMI shown in the bottom of the article, I can't help but notice the abundance of impersonation and disinformation attacks against Russian opposition figures. See the statement by Yevgenia Albats who discovered an article published under her name , . The ] article did not mention PhD researchers in its references. I believe the troll squads article is not an original research because it summarizes the referenced exhibits and analysis. If the article's neutrality is disputed, counter-arguments should be added to the article instead of deleting it. ] 05:50, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
** Could you present the evidence in support of your statements and in support of your linking of these allegations with specifically internet troll squads. Do you have the evidence that Yevgenia Albats was harassed exactly by internet troll squads and why do you have such infromation? ] 07:53, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
*Speedy '''delete''' this original research. Let me politely ask our Polish friends to leave Russia-articles to the responsibility of Russian editors. I presume the latter know more about Russia than the former. --] ] 14:31, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
:''<Lengthy discussion moved to talk preserving order>'' ] 15:24, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
*'''Delete''', ]. ] 12:49, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
*'''Strong Delete''' as WP:OR and possible attack page. We have enough "conspiracy" pages to deal with already, let's not repeat the same mistakes. -- ] ] 13:04, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
:''<Another lengthy discussion moved to talk. Mr.Biophys, you won't promote your cause by abusing the voting section guidelines>'' ] 15:24, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. Per nominator, ], ] and everybody else. --] 14:36, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' per Piotrus, but widen the scope and develop to WP standards. Not hoax, reflects real phenomena and may be referred to some external links. ''No exceptional concentration on Russia of course.'' ] 14:55, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
*'''Thank you!''' Thank you all for your participation and discussion of my article. This helped to improve it a lot. It was nominated for deletion as ]. ''Now it is not OR and based on multiple sources.'' This is obvious from the current list of references. No one of this discussion participants challenged the reliability of any specific references on any reasonable grounds. Most of you criticized the title. Great. Then let's rename it as ''"Internet teams of Russian state security services"'' (almost as suggested by Pyotrus). I have made the corresponding changes in the text, but I do not want to move the article during AfD discussion. If you disagree with such title, let's mark this article as ] and discuss a better title (wrong title can not be a reason for deletion). Finally, the AfD nominator believed that the article is "an attack page against Putin". Obviously, it is not, since there is only one mention of Putin in this article as a third party.] 14:27, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
*'''Delete''', not notable, possibly OR.--] 16:02, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
*'''Comment''' - I received an unsolicited e-mail apparently from Ukrained, asking me to participate in this. I'm not sure if he only sent this request to me, or to many people. I have no opinion on whether the article should be kept. &ndash; ] <sup>(]) (])</sup> 16:04, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
**Exclusively to you Mr. Quadell :). By the way, you'd better write nothing if you "don't know": pelase don't litter voting with hardly-relevant comments. Thanks, ] 16:27, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
***I think a note that the vote might be affected by behind the scenes '''canvassing''' is highly relevant both for the vote and for the ethics of some involved. --] 17:33, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
****Only if one can prove this. BTW, remember that this is not a referendum, what counts here is argumentation rather than number of votes. ] 18:30, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
*****Are you saying there is no proof of canvassing? --] 05:33, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' doesn't seem to be OR, well known facts --] 16:53, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' ] 20:56, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
* '''Keep'''. Very known phenomena in Russian Internet. See also article in Russian Misplaced Pages ]. --] 23:22, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
*'''Strong Delete''' per ] and ]. --] 23:36, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
* '''Keep'''. The article lists several trustworthy sources that describe an Internet phenomenon. ] 02:04, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
* '''Keep'''. This article is similar to ] regarding what the government could do.. - ] | <sup>] / ]</sup> 06:07, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
* '''Comment''' is anyone able to translate the foreign language sources? - ] 07:07, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
*'''Delete and lock''', this is a ridiculous attack piece. If it by some chance isn't an outright hoax, there has to be some better name it can hold and it will need rewritten from the ground up regardless. --] <small>]</small> 07:09, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a ]). No further edits should be made to this page.'' <!--Template:Afd bottom--></div>

Latest revision as of 03:59, 7 February 2023

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was DELETED as an attack page and highly speculative original research, all wrapped up in one. I've disregarded the nose count on this one, due to the off-wiki vote stumping. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 07:23, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Internet troll squads

Internet troll squads (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

Original research devised from two tangentially related articles. Essentially an attack page against Putin. ⇒ SWATJester 04:54, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

<Lengthy comment moved to talk preserving order> Ukrained 15:24, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete Looks like a hoax to me, but I can't read Russian either, so the sources really mean nothing to me. If its not a joke, perhaps Merge with Troll (Internet)Gelston 08:49, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete Looks like a conspiracy theory to me. -- Pious7 13:48, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment The sources are in english Whoops, confused this with a different russian language article. ⇒ SWATJester 15:25, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
  • 'Delete - Original research.--Tom 17:11, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Speedy Delete - Except for being hoax, original research, and the term "troll squads" being coined by Biophys - the author of this article, this article was created by him in order to defame and slander me and Alex Bakharev. Please see the evidence here "KGB trolls in Misplaced Pages?" Vlad fedorov 17:16, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep (I am creator of this article). First, this is obviously not OR, which is claimed as the reason for deletion. Everything is taken from the sources. Article is based on a single reliable source at least four reliable sources now (see my reply below - "Thank you"), which is perfectly consitent with Misplaced Pages policies. Second, English translation of main source has been provided in the article. See: . So, could you please read this translation, and then decide if the subject is a "hoax" and notable. As explained on talk page, this is a reliable source. Third, this article say nothing personal about Putin except that FSB workers admire him (which is probably true). So, this is not attack against Putin. Finally, this article has not been created to accuse Misplaced Pages editors. I planned to create it long time ago, as anyone can see looking at my personal page User:Biophys#Links_and_notes and Talk:Persecution_of_political_bloggers#English_translation_of_Russian_article_about_.22Internet_troll_squads.22 where the same source has been used. Further, I have never made any personal accusations of that kind. If someone else did, this is not my problem. The subject about "FSB trolls in Misplaced Pages" was opened by an anonymous user in talk page FSB, so I have mostly reacted on that. I also did not want people to discuss accusations not related to me at my talk page. Biophys 17:33, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete - POV/OR. FCYTravis 18:00, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete - no assertion of notability, no reliable sources cited as is required. Probable OR. Moreschi 22:55, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete - first of all, if this article was alone, it would probably only just be a weak delete; while there is one source provided, it does not back up any claim this this is either a notable or even realistic problem. Furthermore, this article appears to be some kind of personal vendetta the creator has against another Wikipedian - in my books, that's WP:POINT. --Haemo 06:42, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete. It's surely a conspiracy theory. ellol 11:09, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

*Delete. I feel that while it is a good article, it needs more sources to cite for it to be as reliable as people want.CPTGbr 20:29, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

<Lengthy discussion moved to talk preserving order> Ukrained 15:24, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
<Another lengthy discussion moved to talk. Mr.Biophys, you won't promote your cause by abusing the voting section guidelines> Ukrained 15:24, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.