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== Is Kulldorff an epidemiologist? == | ||
The article's lede states that Kulldorff is a ], though does not mention that he is a ]. I think the specialty might be worthy to mention, as it seems a good amount of sources support his assertion in the field ( </nowiki>] </nowiki>] </nowiki>]). In a court-document under the New Civil Liberties Alliance, Kulldorff's background states under penalty of perjury: {{TQ|Dr. Martin Kulldorff is a Professor of Medicine at Harvard Medical School, and he | |||
I've gone back and forth with a few of you on this now, so fine, let's use the talk page to discuss it. | |||
is a biostatistician and epidemiologist at Brigham and Women’s Hospital}} ( </nowiki>] ). @] ] (]) 16:55, 6 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
:See previous discussion and dispute resolution on this. The only source which seems to consider it in depth explicitly says he is NOT an epidemiologist. So stick with what's certain. ] (]) 17:02, 6 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
::Do you know which discussion the source is mentioned in? I haven't been a part of the previous discussions, so finding one source among the tons of discussions about Kulldorff is like finding a needle in a haystack. ] (]) 17:09, 6 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
:::See. and this page's archives. ] (]) 17:16, 6 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
== Contentious BLP material? == | |||
The section under Views on COVID-19 contains the following paragraph: | |||
Concerning , I am not seeing any contentious BLP material in the passage removed. And concerning the removing editor's aspersions about the source, ] has Science-Based medicine green-listed. Therefore I see no grounds for removal. ] (]) 19:20, 25 July 2023 (UTC) | |||
"In December 2021 Kulldorff published an error-laden essay for the Brownstone Institute in which he falsely claimed that influenza was more hazardous to children than COVID-19, and that on that basis illogically argued that children should not receive COVID-19 vaccination. In reality, influenza had been responsible for one child death that year, while COVID-19 had killed more than 1,000." | |||
:I agree with {{u|Newimpartial}}. I don't see a valid reason for removal and I think a case needs to be made here before it's removed again. — ''']''' <sup>''(])''</sup> 21:26, 25 July 2023 (UTC) | |||
The only part of this that is objectively true is that he wrote an essay for the Brownstone Institute. "error-laden" shows bias against the essay, "in which he falsely claimed" shows bias against the view, and "illogically argued" is pure opinion. | |||
== Neutrality and tone on disputed section "Views on COVID-19" == | |||
This paragraph would be more neutral by saying: | |||
Section has been previously disputed and I believe current wording is not ideal. I rephrased it to say the same thing with "nonjudgmental language" per ] and ]. This topic is clearly disputed between researchers, and factually the rephrasing I did is accurate, more neutral, and less judgmental. | |||
"In December 2021, Kulldorff published an essay for the Brownstone Institute in which he asserted that influenza was more hazardous to children than COVID-19, and on that basis argued that children do not require the COVID-19 vaccination. Influenza was responsible for one child death that year, while COVID-19 was responsible for more than 1,000 since the start of the pandemic (609 in 2021). However, the 2020-2021 flu season was abnormally mild and is not representative of normal influenza related mortality rates among children." | |||
The sentence in question is uncited and uses the words "error-laden," "falsely claimed", and "illogically argued." I added the citation to the sentence in question to clearly show where it was from. My rephrasing states objectively that he published an essay with claims, and then moves the criticism to the following sentence, and clearly states that it is the words from the source publication ''].'' This reorganization is a statement of fact, that Kulldorff published an essay, followed by the opinion on that essay, which clearly shifts the tone from looking like the opinion of Misplaced Pages, to stating the facts around the controversial publication. As this is a contentious topic, and the citation is single opinion piece on a living person, it is important to be as neutral as possible to avoid being perceived as bias. | |||
That is an objectively true paragraph and completely neutral (I also corrected some grammar errors from the original). | |||
As the change I made maintains the same exact meaning as the previous section while adding context and eliminating what could be seen as editorializing, I struggle to see the resistance. Previous discussions have shown that the SBM article is contentious, and many users have brought up criticisms of this sentence, source, and entire paragraph. I believe the amount of dispute on it warrants at least considering that it does not appear neutral, and that the rewording I proposed is both accurate and more neutral to respect the amount of dispute that has clearly happened. | |||
Either remove the paragraph for being biased against Kulldorff's essay and view, or modify it to be actually objective. ] (]) 02:55, 21 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
:Seems to represent the cited source (which is a good one) accurately, ''as is''. The "mild season" stuff appears to be entirely your ]. ] (]) 06:29, 21 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
::The cited "article" is a blatant hit and opinion piece, it's hardly a "good one" and if articles like that were the standard for Misplaced Pages, the site would lose all credibility. | |||
::As for whether a COVID infection or influenza infection is more severe, which is the point of Kulldorff's statement, the cited article even concedes this: "Yes, a young child with the flu might fare slightly worse than a child with COVID-19, but COVID-19 is much more contagious, and so it has much done more damage overall." | |||
::The author acknowledges that an infection with influenza is likely to be more severe than with COVID. He goes on to argue that COVID is still worse ''in aggregate'' because more kids got COVID during the pandemic. | |||
::Last, you state "The "mild season" stuff appears to be entirely your invention" yet my source for that is the CDC: https://www.cdc.gov/flu/season/faq-flu-season-2020-2021.htm -- "Flu activity was unusually low throughout the 2020-2021 flu season both in the United States and globally, despite high levels of testing." | |||
::Hardly "my invention." | |||
::Again, because the original source is an opinion piece with a blatant and clear bias against Kulldorff, it's inappropriate for the paragraph in question to even be in the article. If it's going to be, it should be my version which is a neutral take. ] (]) 15:12, 21 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
:::There is a Misplaced Pages-wide consensus that sciencebasedmedicine is a good source (see ]) - You're not going to get very far here by arguing that its inappropriate based on your personal opinions. ] (]) 15:18, 21 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
::::Yes, and there is nothing in it about a "mild season" - the IP is trying for ] based on some as yet unused source. The whole point here is that whatever erroneous assertions were made, it cannot follow that children do not require the COVID-19 vaccination. That is what the source says; we relay it, to be neutral. ] (]) 15:30, 21 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
:::::You're really getting into semantics here by suggesting that "unusually low" and "mild" aren't synonymous. But fine, I'll change it to say what the CDC said verbatim. I trust you'll consider them a good source. | |||
:::::I'm going to make the edit again, because the verbiage used in the original paragraph is opinionated and not fact based. Kulldorff's article is error-laden ''in the opinion of the SMB author''. "Falsely claimed" in the opinion of the SMB author, despite him acknowledging that a flu infection is more severe in his own article. "Illogically argued" ''in the '''opinion''' of'' the SMB author. These are not neutral points nor are they based in fact. It's the opinion of the SMB author. | |||
:::::As for whether or not children broadly require COVID-19 vaccination, I would think Misplaced Pages editors would give more credence to the views of a doctor that specializes in vaccine safety and infectious diseases than the views of a psychiatrist. ] (]) 15:40, 21 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
::::::SBM is reliable for statements of fact, which we ] unless there is a counter reliable source. This is particularly important for ] views like "flu something something so don't vaccinate children!". The CDC source is irrelevant. ] (]) 15:42, 21 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
:::::::The SMB author's assertion is that COVID is obviously more dangerous than the flu because the flu only killed one kid that year. It goes without saying that context for why there were so few flu fatalities is relevant and necessary. Pretty wild to me that you consider a CDC source on the 2020-2021 flu season irrelevant in a paragraph that has to do with the 2020-2021 flu season. ] (]) 15:45, 21 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
::::::::Copying a source in an juxtaposing it with another to try to make some sort of point is called 'synthesis' here, a type of original research. (see ]). It is against Misplaced Pages policy. ] (]) 15:48, 21 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::Right, and as it happens the ''record'' annual US pediatric deaths from flu in recent years is 188, so not "more hazardous to children than COVID-19" in theory, let alone in practice. Stating otherwise is an error as our excellent source relays. I think we are done here. ] (]) 15:53, 21 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::The point that Kulldorff was making is that an infection with influenza is usually more severe for a child than an infection with COVID-19. The SBM opinion author even acknowledged that fact, which I've already quoted but will again: "Yes, a young child with the flu might fare slightly worse than a child with COVID-19..." | |||
::::::::::That said, none of us here are doctors or experts in infectious diseases and we're losing sight of the original point of the edit: That the original paragraph has multiple opinionated and biased statements in it, and the SBM source itself is an opinion piece. You all keep saying the SBM is "excellent" and that may usually be the case, but the New York Times is also usually an excellent source, but an opinion piece in the NYT would also be inappropriate to use as a source unless it's made clear that it's an opinion piece. | |||
::::::::::The original paragraph and the cited SBM source are both expressing their views of Kulldorff's article and the validity of it, rather than simply explaining the views of Kulldorff. ] (]) 16:02, 21 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::Yeah, it's the viewpoint of ''science'' applied to the viewpoint of ''antivax grift''. Misplaced Pages prefers the science way. You may have your views on how the relative hazards of flu and COVID weigh up, and how that means COVID vaccination is unnecessary, but here we simply relay what good sources say, so any such personal views are irrelevant. ] (]) 16:07, 21 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::::So if you want to prefer the science way, perhaps you should prefer the views of an infectious disease and vaccine safety expert over the views of a neurologist/psychiatrist? | |||
::::::::::::I totally agree. Anyone who doesn't is simply more interested in their preferred narrative than what "the science" says. ] (]) 16:13, 21 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::::We prefer the mainstream view. Sometimes people who have impressive qualifications aren't in the mainstream - when that happens, Misplaced Pages will say so. ] (]) 16:16, 21 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::::::Has a "vaccine safety expert" given some view on Kulldorff in RS? That would be useful to cite .... ] (]) 16:19, 21 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::::::And who decides what is mainstream and what isn't? The point is, the original paragraph cites a psychiatrist offering his opinion on an essay by a infectious disease and vaccine safety expert. | |||
::::::::::::::"Has a "vaccine safety expert" given some view on Kulldorff in RS? That would be useful to cite" - Kulldorff is a vaccine safety expert, unless you believe the CDC allows (or allowed) average Joes to sit on their panels related to vaccine safety. Kulldorff is the type of expert that should be cited. There are also other experts with different views. All are more credible than a psychiatrists. Or yours or mine. ] (]) 16:28, 21 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::::::The reliable sources do. We don't do it ourselves by trying to interpret CDC data. ] (]) 16:30, 21 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::::::::The reliable sources... And have you considered, and bear with me here, that the reason you consider a psychiatrist's view on vaccine safety more reliable than an infectious diseases and vaccine safety expert because the psychiatrist's view fits your own personal view? ] (]) 16:41, 21 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::::::::Not really, the trick of a Wikipedian is not to have their "own personal view" for the subjects they edit, and to convey what is written in reliable sources. I certainly have a "view" about what is a reliable source, partly through a long period of editing Misplaced Pages, but also through a lifetime including long stints in academia and in STEM publishing. Good editors should know their limits. Bottom line, the argument that influenza somehow means the COVID-19 vaccine should be avoided for children is shite per every reliable source on the planet, and Misplaced Pages puts it in that context. ] (]) 16:48, 21 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::::::::::If that's the "trick of a Wikipedian," I'd say the project is doing a piss-poor job of it, to be honest. The IP address has a perfectly valid point. The "reliable sources" have a nasty habit of incestuously citing one another in a sort of tautological circle-jerk. They create "truth" and "consensus" out of nothing on a regular basis. And frankly, the tone and verbiage that is being used against people like Kulldorff, Bhattachary, and Gupta is totally unbefitting of anyone with a principled scientific background. ] (]) 03:18, 16 March 2023 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::::::::::LOL, academics citing each other is more generally known as scholarship. Misplaced Pages likes knowledge. Which is why bullshit is properly framed within its great context, as here. ] (]) 06:06, 16 March 2023 (UTC) | |||
===The SBM article is factually incorrect and is misattributed=== | |||
'''Original text''' | |||
In December 2021 Kulldorff published an error-laden essay for the Brownstone Institute in which he falsely claimed that ] was more hazardous to children than ], and on that basis illogically argued against children receiving COVID-19 vaccination. In reality, influenza had been responsible for one child death in the 2020/21 season, while ] was in place{{snd}}COVID-19 had, in contrast, killed more than 1,000.<ref name=saves>{{cite web |publisher=] |title=I Disagree With an Article Called 'Vaccines Save Lives' |vauthors=Howard J |date=23 December 2021 |url=https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/i-disagree-with-an-article-called-vaccines-save-lives/}}</ref> | |||
I have removed the contended statement so that we can continue to discuss this issue here and try to find a consensus, per ], which states: | |||
'''Proposed revision''' | |||
{{Quote frame|Contentious material about living persons (or, in some cases, recently deceased) that is unsourced or poorly sourced—whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable—must be '''removed immediately and without waiting for discussion'''. Users who persistently or egregiously violate this policy may be blocked from editing. }} | |||
In December 2021 Kulldorff published an essay for the Brownstone Institute in which he claimed that ] was more hazardous to children than ], and on that basis argued against children receiving COVID-19 vaccination.<ref name=saves>{{cite web |publisher=] |title=I Disagree With an Article Called 'Vaccines Save Lives' |vauthors=Howard J |date=23 December 2021 |url=https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/i-disagree-with-an-article-called-vaccines-save-lives/}}</ref> This essay was criticized by the website '']'' for containing errors and factual inaccuracies, with influenza responsible for one child death in the 2020/21 season, while ] was in place{{snd}}COVID-19 had, in contrast, killed more than 1,000.<ref name=saves>{{cite web |publisher=] |title=I Disagree With an Article Called 'Vaccines Save Lives' |vauthors=Howard J |date=23 December 2021 |url=https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/i-disagree-with-an-article-called-vaccines-save-lives/}}</ref> ] <sup> (]) </sup> 20:45, 26 March 2024 (UTC) | |||
====Factual inaccuracy==== | |||
The SMB article states: "The past two years, with COVID-19 mitigation in place, the flu killed just one child." | |||
:The proposed revision is an improvement because it does not add editorial judgement and is more neutral. | |||
According to the author's source; the CDC, the previous two years had 200 pediatric influenza-related deaths. The previous two years would be seasons 2019-2020 and 2020-2021, which had 199 and 1 total deaths respectively. | |||
:The original text is questionable for two reasons. First, in the cited critique of Kulldorf's essay, regarding the claim that the annual influenza was more hazardous to children than COVID-19, the critique says: | |||
:"The true flu deaths are higher given incomplete reporting. For example, the CDC would later increase the estimate of deaths to 1,090 during the H1N1 pandemic. COVID-19’s pediatric death toll will soon surpass this grim milestone and undoubtedly would have done so long ago had the policies of the GBD been widely implemented. The single highest estimate from any other year was that 434 deaths may have occurred." | |||
:So a typical annual influenza would be up to 434 deaths and, in a pandemic year, 1090 deaths. How does this compare to Covid? As of 2023 the CDC says 776 (0-4yr) + 1071 (5-18yr) children died from Covid between Jan 2020-June 2023, i.e. averaging 461 per year. These numbers sound close enough that I wouldn't rush to weigh in as a lay editor. Source: https://data.cdc.gov/widgets/nr4s-juj3?mobile_redirect=true | |||
:Second, the CDC article which provided the data for the critique notes "importantly, among reported flu-related deaths in children, about 80% occurred in children who were not fully vaccinated." Thus, when the critique concludes "The numbers are clear, and anyone who claims the flu is more dangerous than COVID-19 for children is either completely ignorant, blatantly lying, or, like Dr. Kulldorff, trying to trick their readers with word games," it is doing so based on an invalid comparison of Covid mortality in 2020-2021 (in an unvaccinated population) with annual influenza mortality (in partially vaccinated populations). I.e. the critique might as well just say that vaccination can reduce mortality. | |||
:Neither of these proves Dr. Kulldorf's essay was correct, but we should be wary of lending Misplaced Pages's voice to this critique. ] (]) 03:29, 28 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
::I don't think the proposed revision is compliant with wikipedia policy - it takes a BOTHSIDESIST "he said ... but others say ..." approach to questions that are actually settled by science: was flu or Covid a greater risk to children in 2021, and was childhood vaccination an appropriate protective measure in this context. Revisionist text that implies "maybe, maybe not" departs from the clear consensus in the field. ] (]) 03:48, 28 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::Looking through the novel we have written, I believe the current text does not comply with Misplaced Pages policy, and that something better can be used. Trying to take into account feedback, I proposed the following: | |||
:::"Kulldorff published an essay titled "Vaccines save lives" for the Brownstone Institute, a right-wing think tank, that has been criticized for factual inaccuracies. Jonathan Howard published a critical response to this in Science-Based Medicine, detailing errors and factual inaccuracies, such as pointing out that while influenza was responsible for one child death in the 2020/21 season while public health mitigation of COVID-19 was in place – COVID-19 had, in contrast, killed more than 1,000." | |||
:::I think the above body of text has a better tone, and factually represents the content without the tone problems. That have been pointed out by several editors over time. ] <sup> (]) </sup> 03:55, 28 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::I concur with this new text as well. | |||
::::With regard to being BOTHSIDESIST, the quote from Howard's critique says "The same is not true for children. Their Covid mortality risk is miniscule and less than the already low risk from the annual influenza, so the vaccine benefit for healthy children is very small." Since Kuldorf said the "annual influenza," not the 2020 or 2021 influenza specifically, whether it is settled that the 2021 flu or 2021 Covid was a greater risk is irrelevant. I.e. people know the risk of the annual influenza, even though they do not know the exact risk of this year's influenza. | |||
::::If a critique of Kuldorff essay is to be presented as settled science, surely there is a better critique out there that does not rely on conflating influenza risk post-vaccination with Covid risk pre-vaccination. ] (]) 02:00, 29 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::On Misplaced Pages we follow the cited sources, you're not going to get far by trying to argue that the cited source is incorrect. And even that has been argued to death - check the talk pages archives. It didn't work then and it won't work now. ] (]) 02:12, 29 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::I just want the tone of this sentence to sound less like an attack piece in a clickbait article and more encyclopedic. I've tried to suggest alternative text that maintains the same meaning, and even elaborates on the bias in the publisher and moves the critique to the author of the source instead of Wikivoice. What is wrong with the alternative I've suggested, and is there an alternative to the status quo that you would suggest to try to make the tone more encyclopedic? It really seems like ] at this point. ] <sup> (]) </sup> 08:30, 29 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::Tikitorch, I'm not understanding your argument here. Kuldorf is making an argument against vaccination, so the pre-vaccination Covid risk seems to be precisely the right one to compare. ] (]) 02:24, 29 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::Sure, the current Misplaced Pages text says “In December 2021 Kulldorff published an error-laden essay for the Brownstone Institute in which he falsely claimed that influenza was more hazardous to children than COVID-19.” To your point, we can assume Kulldorf meant Covid risk pre-vaccination, but there no evidence he was comparing it to the annual influenza post vaccination—indeed it more natural to assume he was comparing like populations, I.e. to the annual influenza risk to those without the flu shot. Thus there is not really evidence in the critique of an error in Kuldorff’s essay, only the possibility of two interpretations. | |||
::::::I think Howard’s interpretation is not the natural one but it’s fine to cite Howard’s published critique. That being said it is editorializing to assert Kulldorff’s essay was “error laden” when the only error cited has a more natural interpretation that is probably true (that the typical annual influenza poses a greater risk to children than Covid did amongst comparably unvaccinated groups). This is also why it is important to accurately cite Howard’s critique where it says “the annual influenza,” not the 2020 influenza. The proposed replacement text also avoids this misquoting of the source. ] (]) 03:55, 29 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::I see no evidence supporting your supposedly more {{tq|natural}} interpretation. We were not living in a world in 2021 where it was necessary to ''choose between'' Covid and influenza vaccinations, which is the only context in which your comparison between unvaccinated groups would make any sense. | |||
:::::::Also, your distinction between "the annual influenza" and the 2021 influenza is without difference - unless you are arguing that some special characteristic of the 2021 mix of influenza strains is reaponsible for its low prevalence that year, rather than the difficult conditions for its spread caused by changed social practices in 2020-21. The "2021 indluenza" ''was'' the annual influenza for that year, and was therefore the relevant comparison. | |||
:::::::In short, you seem to belive that Howard is mistaken in finding errors in Kulldorff's work, but I find Howard's reading to be the plausible one, in line with mainstream literature in the discipline, and yours to be an ideosyncratic, small minority view. ] (]) 09:23, 29 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::::Kulldorff is a scientist; it is unlikely he was comparing the risk to children without the Covid vaccine from Covid to the risk to children with the flu vaccine from influenza. There is no evidence he was other than the opinion of Howard. Kulldorff wrote "The same is not true for children. Their Covid mortality risk is miniscule and less than the already low risk from the annual influenza, so the vaccine benefit for healthy children is very small." A scientific colleague would assume Kulldorff was comparing groups with equivalent vaccination status, or ask him to clarify. | |||
::::::::The most straightforward way to read it is Kulldorff was informing people of the absolute risk due to covid in terms of a risk they know from past experience--the annual influenza. Like you said, it is not necessary to choose between Covid and influenza vaccinations. | |||
::::::::Again, it is fine to cite Howard's opinion that Kulldorff's statement was in error or misleading, but Misplaced Pages should not editorialize a plausible interpretation as the only true one. There is no evidence presented that compares the risk from Covid vs. "the annual influenza", controlling for vaccination status. Can it be settled science that Kulldorff was in error if the critique's method made no attempt to control for the most obvious confounding factor? ] (]) 00:58, 30 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::This all sounds like highly strained special pleading. As {{u|Newimpartial}} writes, the meaning of the source is plain. Misplaced Pages reflects that. There really is nothing more to add. ] (]) 05:58, 30 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::Tikitorch, I am perplexed by your apparently ] interpretation of "what Kuldorff meant", which isn't supported by the primary source itself nor by any secondary sources. Anyway, if Kuldorff was comparing {{tq|the absolute risk of Covid}} in the actual, unvaccinated population of children in 2021 to the risk of influenza in a largely vaccinated population in previous years, which is the interpretation you just offered, you fail to note that this confirms Howard's point that this is not a valid, scientific argument against vaccination for Covid. | |||
:::::::::Also, there is simply no evidence for the n-dimensional chess interpretation you offered previously, that he was comparing unvaccinated Covid risk to influenza risk in an unvaccinated population in a typical previous year. And even had he intended that line of thinking, it wouldn't have been a valid argument against vaccinating children for Covid, because he doesn't take into account the efficacy of each vaccine - and it turns out that vaccination for Covid is significantly more effective in preventing symptoms and mortality than vaccination against influenza | |||
:::::::::TL;DR - saying "but he's a scientist!" isn't actually a license for editors to determine what someone should have meant in order to try to prove that their RS critics were wrong. ] (]) 14:37, 30 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::Likewise, I am perplexed you say there is simply no evidence that Kulldorff was comparing unvaccinated Covid risk to unvaccinated influenza risk in a typical previous year. At the very top Howard quotes Kulldorff: "The same is not true for children. Their Covid mortality risk is miniscule and less than the already low risk from the annual influenza, so the vaccine benefit for healthy children is very small." Why would a scientist make a relative comparison of mortality risk of two different diseases, without controlling for vaccination status? | |||
::::::::::This isn't n-dimensional chess but you do have to do some arithmetic. Everything is in the first two sections of Howard's article. He says that ~1020 children died of Covid through December of 2021, that in a typical year influenza kills about 37-434 children, and during one influenza pandemic 1090 children died. He also says 527 children died of Covid so far in 2021, meaning about 500 died in 2020 (1020 - 527). | |||
::::::::::So, from Howard's own critique, we have a little more than 500/yr due to Covid and an average of 235/yr due to Influenza. Howard omits that children are vaccinated for the flu every year, so I am left assuming the average mortality risk to unvaccinated children from influenza is actually greater than Covid. Finally, for the only data point he offers with comparable groups (from the year the flu vaccine failed), influenza was potentially up to twice as deadly as Covid (1090 vs 500). | |||
::::::::::I'm sure it will be called "original research" to read the first two sections of the cited source and compare numbers in them, but Howard does not show any errors in Kulldorff's essay except by this misinterpretation of the quote above. The best he can muster is "anyone who claims the flu is more dangerous than COVID-19 for children is...like Dr. Kulldorff, trying to trick their readers with word games." Howard's critique is entirely based on his opinion that Kulldorff is trying to trick readers with word games. | |||
::::::::::TL;DR Misplaced Pages's claim that "Kulldorff published an error-laden essay" has no evidence other than an assertion made by Howard of "factual errors" based on misinterpreting Kulldorff's words, which isn't actually a license for editors to determine Howard's interpretation was correct. ] (]) 03:00, 31 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::{{Tq|I'm sure it will be called "original research"}} You're right about that. And you're arguing the wrong things, here. On Misplaced Pages we cannot substitute your judgment for that of the cited source. ] (]) 03:04, 31 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::::I was not proposing text for the Kulldorff’s page based on my “research,” merely pointing out the cited source is not very scientific in its methodology. On the basis of reading the source and noting the methodological flaws of its main supporting evidence, I think the proposed tone improvements by Geogsage are better than the current text, which you are ignoring. | |||
::::::::::::I don’t know why I’m offering evidence to you but it doesn’t take much effort to question this source. For example in one of its secondary points it says “Moreover, there’s no plausible reason to think children will have a reaction to a vaccine years from now that is not apparent today. Though it’s standard anti-vaccine hogwash to claim otherwise, vaccines almost never have side effects that aren’t apparent within a short time.” | |||
::::::::::::He somehow manages to contradict himself within just two sentences to anyone who knows the definition of plausible. ] (]) 04:52, 31 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
{{reflist-talk}} | |||
:Yuck, the proposed re-write is POV as it implies the error is just an opinion. This has already been discussed to death. Misplaced Pages needs to be clear about ] and ] applies. | |||
::@], the proposed rewrite does not imply that anything is just an opinion, it literally says "This essay was criticized by the website Science-Based Medicine for containing errors and factual inaccuracies, with influenza responsible for one child death in the 2020/21 season, while public health mitigation of COVID-19 was in place – COVID-19 had, in contrast, killed more than 1,000." This does not say that the website was posting an opinion, but states that the website criticized it for factual inaccuracies. It has been "discussed to death" because the tone of this line does not read as neutral or disengaged. The number of people who have brought this up and complete unwillingness to compromise at all on the wording is ridiculous. This is a biography of a living person, "Criticism and praise should be included if they can be sourced to reliable secondary sources, so long as the material is presented responsibly, conservatively, and in a disinterested tone." This is far from a disinterested tone. Also, remember to sign your comments please. ] <sup> (]) </sup> 03:14, 27 March 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::Actually it was discussed to death principally because a disruptive editor wouldn't stop trying to change it. They've since been blocked. By personifying a website as criticising something for something, you make it seem like it's just the view of "the website". If misinformation is being aired (as it was about the supposed harmlessness of COVID) Misplaced Pages needs to make that context crystal clear. If (as you acknowledge) ] is a reliable source (i.e. for assertions of fact), why attribute it? This creates a POV problem per ] by making facts seem like opinions. You could just say "The essay contained errors and factual inaccuracies ..." to be neutral, no? ] (]) 03:41, 27 March 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::The disruptive editors in my opinion after reading the discussion were the ones refusing to change it, but that is besides the point. This wording doesn't look disinterested, and I think that it needs to be heavily reworded while maintaining the spirit of the text. I think this can help to avoid future heated discussions and reflect that there has been a lot of dispute here. | |||
::::The wording on the second sentence I proposed can be improved to avoid "personifying" the website, you're right. Would something like "A publication in ] criticized Kulldorff's essay for containing errors and factual inaccuracies, pointing out that influenza was responsible for one child death in the 2020/21 season, while public health mitigation of COVID-19 was in place – COVID-19 had, in contrast, killed more than 1,000." | |||
::::Because this is controversial, I would prefer to put the full responsibility for stating this is factually inaccurate onto the source to avoid the perception that it is Misplaced Pages editors taking a stance on this, which is what the current sentence looks like. Clearly stating Science-Based Medicine in the second stance is also consistent with stating the essay was published for the Brownstone Institute. This is an approach I take in my professional research as well, I make sure to document exactly where my data and arguments are coming from to shift the discussion away from a debate about my opinion to what the sources say. My format is something like: | |||
:::::Source 1 said (a thing). Source 2 (agree/disagree), reasoning. Source 3 (agree/disagree), reasoning. etc." | |||
:::::For example, something like "Somebody published an essay that the world is flat and that we should not sail to close to the edge to avoid falling off.(citation1) All of science disagrees because science.(citation2)" | |||
:::::Saying "Somebody published an error-laden essay that falsely claimed the Earth is flat, and illogically argued we should not sail to close to the edge to avoid falling off" does not appear as neutral or disinterested. | |||
::::I believe it is clear that the text here needs a tone revision, as it clearly reads in a way that strikes some editors the wrong way. ] <sup> (]) </sup> 04:43, 27 March 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::The principle problem with your proposal is that it is POV. For this encyclopedia we are required to state facts in wikivoice to be neutral, per ], and NPOV is not negotiable. You say "because this is controversial" we need to do otherwise, but it's not "controversial" that Kuldorff was simply wrong (unless you can produce RS to that effect). Ancillary problems with the proposal are the personification of the "website" (if it were to be attributed, it would be to J Howard), the unfortunate shift to the passive voice, and the slightly shonky "criticised for ..." / " ... with ..." / " ... while ..." syntax. In short, what we have is fine. ] (]) 04:56, 27 March 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::We have sources saying he is factually wrong, and that needs to be clearly and unambiguously reflected in a disinterested and neutral tone. The Howard article, while from a reliable source, has a bit of a hostile tone (reflected in Howards other publications discussing Kuldorff). While this tone may or may not be warranted, it should be toned down in a biography of a living person. Another suggested revision to sentence 2: | |||
:::::: "] published a response to Kulldorff's essay in ], pointing out Kulldorff's essay contained errors and factual inaccuracies, specifically noting that influenza was responsible for one child death in the 2020/21 season, while ] were in place – COVID-19 had, in contrast, killed more than 1,000." | |||
::::::This links Jonathon Howards page to the opinion directly, as well as the publication. Science arguments are scary and get really heated. They usually don't enter the realm of pop-science and general news coverage though. This approach, the objective dry statement of fact that Kulldorff published something, followed by a sentence that details a sources response to it, using as neutral and disinterested of a tone as possible, would maintain the content of the paragraph while making it appear less inflammatory to a reader. ] <sup> (]) </sup> 05:27, 27 March 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::This is not a "science argument", it's a case where we must simply state the well-sourced factual reality (not "opinion"). Your new proposal does not avoid the ] problem, introduces new ] problems ("noted", "pointed out") and links the wrong Howard. There is no need to dance around; just relay the knowledge and move on. ] (]) 06:30, 27 March 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::::You're right, this is not a "science" argument. It is a case of stating what we must factually, in a neutral, disinterested, conservative tone. The current entry does not sound encyclopedic, it sounds like an opinion piece in a news article. The first statement is just "they said a thing," and then we follow that with what sources say about that thing they said. We don't say "they falsely said a thing and illogically thought something based on their error-laden statement." Others may in the future disagree that the claim is "false," "illogical," or "error-ridden," but that doesn't change that they said it, or what a source claimed about it. If in the future another source comes up, it is as easy as adding another sentence. ] <sup> (]) </sup> 17:33, 27 March 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::Attributing the facts makes the paragraph sound like debating expert opinions, which must be avoided. That isn't a neutral tone, that is giving ] When a fringe claim is false, Misplaced Pages should say so - not try to avoid taking a stand. ] (]) 13:05, 28 March 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::Taking a stand is not a neutral point of view, and this text on biographies of a living person is using non-encyclopedic tone and looks like an attack page. I am not the first one to say this, but any attempts to resolve this have been blocked by the same few editors. As I said earlier, saying "Somebody published an error-laden essay that falsely claimed the Earth is flat, and illogically argued we should not sail to close to the edge to avoid falling off" does not appear as neutral or disinterested. The same is true here. Attributing the fact, that Kulldorff published an essay, followed by an expert rebuttal of that essay, is not giving "equal validity" to a fringe position, it is just reflecting reality. The current text does not just look like Misplaced Pages is taking a stand, it looks like a poorly written attack page at first glance, which is why so many people have already taken issue with the wording here. ] <sup> (]) </sup> 15:31, 28 March 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::I just don't understand this line of argument. This is not a matter where one can legitimately "take a stand" unless it's allowed that maybe Kulldorff was right (]). We just say what is the case. If it's a fact that Kulldorff was wrong, then per ] simply say so. Why can we ignore ]? ] (]) 15:36, 28 March 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::In the case that someone claimed the Earth is flat, we would indeed say they 'falsely' claimed that. It would not be a violation of neutrality to do so. What we absolutely would not do is follow the sentence with something like 'NASA has criticized the essay because the Earth is round'. We don't present mainstream science as another opinion. ] (]) 15:52, 28 March 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::::While the flat Earth sentence might be extreme, the language used here is still inappropriate as it is not encyclopedic. The topic of this page isn't the content the subject has written about, but the living person. "<Subject of article> published a controversial article claiming Earth is flat in a flat Earth Newsletter. Somebody at NASA pointed out that the article contained errors and factual inaccuracies, specifically that it ignored thousands of years of science and had no evidence" is a perfectly accurate statement. Even the source used in this particular case starts with the sentence "Dr. Martin Kulldorff, one of the authors of the Great Barrington Declaration (GBD), recently penned an article for his new employer, the right-wing think tank the Brownstone Institute titled “Vaccines Save Lives“." By using overly harsh language, especially in a sentence that appears to be in Misplaced Pages's voice, you do more damage then you prevent by making conspiracy theorists think you are not approaching it neutrally. What I'm proposing is a more "cautious," "dispassionate," "conservative," and "disinterested" approach to the topic. | |||
::::::::::::From ]: | |||
::::::::::::Tone | |||
::::::::::::"BLPs should be written '''responsibly, cautiously, and in a dispassionate tone, avoiding both understatement and overstatement'''. Articles should document in a non-partisan manner what reliable secondary sources have published about the subjects, and in some circumstances what the subjects have published about themselves. Summarize how actions and achievements are characterized by reliable sources without giving undue weight to recent events. Do not label people with contentious labels, loaded language, or terms that lack precision, unless a person is commonly described that way in reliable sources. Instead use clear, direct language and let facts alone do the talking." | |||
::::::::::::Balance | |||
::::::::::::"Criticism and praise should be included if they can be sourced to reliable secondary sources, so long as the material is presented '''responsibly, conservatively, and in a disinterested tone.''' Do not give disproportionate space to particular viewpoints; the views of small minorities should not be included at all. Care must be taken with article structure to ensure the overall presentation and section headings are broadly neutral. Beware of claims that rely on guilt by association, and biased, malicious or overly promotional content." | |||
::::::::::::Again, this exact sentence has come up repeatedly by editors as sounding problematic, and despite this, the same few editors have refused to even prepose an alternative wording that could satisfy all parties while maintaining the objective content, instead declaring consensus and stonewalling for the status quo. ] <sup> (]) </sup> 16:53, 28 March 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::::You could always post to ] if you want (even) more eyes on the question of how to handle ] claims. ] (]) 16:58, 28 March 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::::::I posted it to ] a few days ago but haven't received interest yet. In this case, the fact Kulldorff published something is not in itself "fringe," it's the content of the source. This is a biography of a living person, and a contentious article, so must be held to very strict content policy. | |||
::::::::::::::The ] page stated: | |||
::::::::::::::"Close attention should be paid to the treatment of those who hold fringe viewpoints, since as a rule they are the focus of controversy. '''All articles concerning these people must also comply with Misplaced Pages's policy on biographies of living persons (WP:BLP).''' Fringe views of those better known for other achievements or incidents should not be given undue prominence, especially when these views are incidental to their fame. However, the WP:BLP policy does not provide an excuse to remove all criticism from a biography or to obscure the nature of a person's fringe advocacy outside of their field of expertise (see WP:PROFRINGE, WP:PSCI, WP:BLP § Balance)." | |||
::::::::::::::I'm arguing that this sentence violates WP:BLP tone, as have others, so I thought that would get priority. I'll post this discussion there as well though. I should note that based on WP:BLP guidelines: | |||
::::::::::::::"When material about living persons has been deleted on good-faith BLP objections, any editor wishing to add, restore, or undelete it must ensure it complies with Misplaced Pages's content policies. If it is to be restored without significant change, consensus must be obtained first. Material that has been repaired to address concerns should be judged on a case-by-case basis." | |||
::::::::::::::Good faith objections have been raised, by myself and others. It has been restored, repeatedly both here and in previous discussions, without significant change to the ] before consensus was obtained first. The fact this has come up so much to me indicates that it is not just me who finds the tone less then adequate, and that compromise can likely be reached to improve how this content is written. For example, we can maintain the content of this while also not presenting three separate descriptions of the work as "error-laden," "falsely claimed," or "illogically argued." Especially when it is only one source cited to back those assertions, and the sentence in question is not clearly citing that source. | |||
::::::::::::::(To get ahead of any COI finger pointing, I don't agree with Martin Kulldorff on this, and I have never met him. I didn't even know about him before starting the article for ]. From my personal experience, being highly critical of this kind of content only reinforces conspiratorial thinking, which is largely why I want to avoid using language that can and has been perceived as less then neutral in tone.) ] <sup> (]) </sup> 18:31, 28 March 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::::::The matter is not biographical, but applies to a factual claim made in the realm of biomedicine. Scientific claims do not "inherit" the BLP protection accorded to the person who uttered them, and to claim otherwise if ]. We have a reliable source countering a fringe view; we say what it says. Job done. ] (]) 18:45, 28 March 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::::::::This page is biographical, and to say otherwise is ridiculous. The first line of the source states: "Dr. Martin Kulldorff, one of the authors of the Great Barrington Declaration (GBD), recently penned an article for his new employer, the right-wing think tank the Brownstone Institute titled “Vaccines Save Lives." It then discusses the content of the publication. This is exactly the format I'm suggesting, following the reliable source used here: Statement of fact that an article exists in one sentence, followed by another on the factual accuracy and content. This has come up repeatedly by multiple editors, and could be reworded in respect of the good faith criticisms of tone and apparent neutrality while maintaining the same exact content. I honestly don't understand the strong resistance to what could be an easy compromise and insistence on the ] despite this being brought up multiple times. The resistance to change and lack of any compromised revision to the text really feels like ]. ] <sup> (]) </sup> 18:57, 28 March 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::::::::That's just a personal attack. You've been given precise policy based rationales wrt ] which you have completely failed to engage with, instead flailing around with poorly-worded and outright incorrect proposals. Time to ignore. ] (]) 19:20, 28 March 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::::::::::It is not a personal attack, it is an observed pattern of behavior after reading this talk page and seeing what appears to be a refusal to compromise on tone/wording of a single sentence after multiple editors have expressed concern. I have attempted to engage with your arguments, you did not like my response. You have failed to even offer a compromise alternative text of your own that addresses concerns. You have been given precise policy based rationales that you have completely failed to engage with. Looking at this talk page, it looks increasingly like a textbook example of ], complete with threats to ban users (pointing to other users who have been "blocked indefinitely" for disagreeing with this), and ] like this replies "time to ignore" line. This behavior "gives Misplaced Pages an undesirable reputation as a place where aggression and gaming the system are permitted, valued and rewarded." ] <sup> (]) </sup> 03:03, 29 March 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::::::::No. Ridiculous is the GBD. The above reasoning sounds ] to whitewash the dangerous flawed and rejected claims promoted by right-wing think-tanks and their footmen. ] (]) 20:09, 28 March 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::::::::::Okay, lets change things up. I don't agree with Kulldorff at all personally, but in good faith thought this legitimately violated tone and neutrality policy. In the case that we are trying to avoid whitewashing stuff, the current text is not clear enough, and definitly not in line with the citations tone. How about the following: | |||
::::::::::::::::::"In December 2021, the contrarian Kulldorff, anchored to his ideas put forward in the GBD, decided to "spread disinformation" with ridiculous, error-ridden, "anti-vaccine hogwash," for the right wing think-tank Brownstone Institute, in which he tried "to trick their readers with word games" by falsely putting forth "absurd comparisons" and a "blatant lie" that influenza was more hazardous to children than COVID-19.<ref name=saves>{{cite web |publisher=] |title=I Disagree With an Article Called 'Vaccines Save Lives' |vauthors=Howard J |date=23 December 2021 |url=https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/i-disagree-with-an-article-called-vaccines-save-lives/}}</ref> On that basis, he illogically argued using "rhetorical sleight of hand tricks", that children should not receive COVID-19 vaccinations<ref name=saves/>. Upon reviewing this text, one publications said "No semi-rational author could include all the relevant facts and still conclude that it’s a bad idea to vaccinate children" and speculated that Kulldorff knows this but believes it would undermine the GBD.<ref name=saves/> In summary this publication stated "How sad."<ref name=saves/>" | |||
::::::::::::::::::I honestly don't like Kulldorffs stance, but as a researcher and teacher would have marked an undergraduate paper off for this kind of unscholarly wording. If Misplaced Pages is really a place where we want to avoid whitewashing stuff, then the current text is no where near extreme enough. Above I have added some highlight quotes from the reliable source cited in the article to drive the point home. Either the current texts tone is too strong, or not strong enough, but it must be changed. ] <sup> (]) </sup> 02:40, 29 March 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::::::::::See ] and ]. ] (]) 02:49, 29 March 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::::::::::::Misplaced Pages:Do not disrupt Misplaced Pages to illustrate a point: | |||
::::::::::::::::::::"A commonly used shortcut to this page is WP:POINT. However, just because someone is making a point does not mean that they are disrupting Misplaced Pages to illustrate that point. As a rule, editors engaging in "POINTy" behavior are making edits with which they do not actually agree, for the deliberate purpose of drawing attention and provoking opposition in the hopes of making other editors see their "point". Merely describing such hypothetical behavior is fine and does not go against this guideline. For example, saying By that standard, we ought to remove all the cited sources on this page is okay, but actually doing that just to make a point is not." | |||
::::::::::::::::::::I did not disrupt Wikipeida. This is the talk page, and I was making a point and saying "By that standard" we ought to really drive the point home and avoid whitewashing this. Please refrain from ] when you're supposed to be ignoring me. ] are the lamest form of wikibullying, and technically constitute a ]. ] <sup> (]) </sup> 03:13, 29 March 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::::::::::It is not appropriate to include quotations from any source in such a way that they are given the weight of wikivoice. I believe this should be obvious to all editors, so I conclude that Geog is making a ] argument here. | |||
:::::::::::::::::::And re: the prior statement, {{tq|This page is biographical}} - yes, but that does not mean that all content in the article is sensitive ] content. That Lund is in Sweden is not BLP content, and that Covid-19 was more dangerous to children than the flu is also not BLP content. ] (]) 03:43, 29 March 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::::::::::::Indeed. There was even once an RfC to test the idea that BLP extended to person's (fringe) views. TL;DR{{snd}}it doesn't. ] (]) 03:50, 29 March 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::::::::::::I was making a point. The tone of the text in Wikivoice is not neutral or disinterested. This is why it has come up repeatedly on this talk page. While I agree it is important to avoid whitewashing misinformation, my concern is that by using to many loaded words in a sentence without a citation we don't appear neutral or disinterested. Even if my proposed text is not what we go with, I request some sort of rewording on that sentence. | |||
::::::::::::::::::::For example: "Kulldorff published an essay titled "Vaccines save lives" for the Brownstone Institute, a right-wing think tank, that has been criticized for factual inaccuracies. Jonathan Howard published a critical response to this in Science-Based Medicine, detailing errors and factual inaccuracies, such as pointing out that while influenza was responsible for one child death in the 2020/21 season while public health mitigation of COVID-19 was in place – COVID-19 had, in contrast, killed more than 1,000." | |||
::::::::::::::::::::The overall content is great, no complaint. Our delivery does not read as encyclopedic and that is why this keeps coming up by editors. If you change the topic to something less controversial, would this sentence be in a tone that is acceptable in Wikivoice? Cause it really doesn't sound like it to me. | |||
::::::::::::::::::::I'm looking for some level of back and forth compromise to make a better entry, there is always room for improvement in text. Multiple editors have over time expressed various levels of dissatisfaction with this wording. Currently it feels like there is stubborn resistance to any change for reasons that I'm struggling to understand (as a professional in ] research that is highly against disinformation and not in agreement with Kulldorff on this). Personally I think the current wording does more harm then good by making it look like Misplaced Pages is not neutral on this, which only reinforces conspiracy theorists. ] <sup> (]) </sup> 04:14, 29 March 2024 (UTC) | |||
:"Tone" and "neutrality" are the go-to vocabulary of users who want to portray Kulldorff's views as having more merit than they actually do. If you want to address style questions, you should avoid those words in fringe article talk pages because if you use them, you paint yourself as a fringe POV pusher. You could argue that "error-laden", "falsely" and "illogically" are too much and bad style, without adding the dogwhistle words. Well, arguing against vaccination against one disease because another disease is more dangerous is indeed illogical in itself, and if the other disease is actually far less dangerous, that makes the total quality of his reasoning abysmally bad. It is creationist-level reality denial. At least two of the negative qualifiers are needed. | |||
:Attributing statements to SBM instead of putting it in Wikivoice would be acceptable if there were serious people who contradict the influenza and COVID death numbers. --] (]) 05:27, 29 March 2024 (UTC) | |||
::Thank you. I don't know how much you read of the text wall, but I'm not a supporter of his views (I use some software he wrote in my research, when I wrote the Misplaced Pages page for it and came to his article to tag it was actually the first I learned of the controversy.) I apologize if I used incorrect language to describe the issue, I thought I was referencing specific Misplaced Pages policy, didn't mean to dog whistle. | |||
::The qualifiers can be moved to a second sentence and attributed clearly to the source while still allowing for a neutral statement that the publication exists. We could even move the description of the content within the essay to a separate, cited, sentence with qualifiers. We could even avoid repeating the misleading material entirely. For example: | |||
:::"In December 2021 Kulldorff published an essay for the Brownstone Institute, a right-wing think tank, titled "Vaccines save lives." Jonathan Howard published a critical response to this in Science-Based Medicine, noting that despite it sounding like an article he might agree with based on the title, the essay is not in line with medical consensus. Howard detailed factual errors, omissions, and logical flaws in this article, stating that this essay "mostly argued against vaccinating children."" | |||
::Not a perfect block of text, but it is better "style" in my opinion, and avoids repeating any of the specific misinformation while giving the reader context. Working on ] I noticed that strong language will either be preaching to the choir, or give the conspiracy theorists ammunition (I fought to keep the words "dubious evidence" in a sentence, but listed multiple sources to do so). Working to make the block appear as objective as possible while presenting the counter arguments in a clear, disinterested tone might do more to lower the temperature around fringe topics then strong qualifiers. | |||
::If you have any proposed re-wordings based on anything I've written, or your own ideas, I'd love to see them. Based on this talk page, I think it is clear I'm not the only person who doesn't like the style of this text. ] <sup> (]) </sup> 06:21, 29 March 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::GeogSage, unless you believe the whole section's tone is non-neutral, and not just the two sentences, then perhaps you could switch the to to an in-text tag? ] (]) 07:09, 29 March 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::It seems, Geog, that you may be unfamiliar with the distinction used on enwiki between neutrality and false neutrality. Neutrality in language is required when multiple perspectives carry similar epistemological status (some critics laud an artist's work and others are withering, in a classic example). | |||
:::False neutrality occurs when an article presents a fact as an opinion: "X stated in his article that cryptids are real; this was disputed in another article by Y". The latter doesn't really respect what the facts are (in "our" speech community and episteme, it is "a fact" that cryptids do not exist). | |||
:::The language you have been proposing for the paragraph in question seems to others to represent false balance, since it presents the essay Kuldorff wrote for Brownstone as though it was equally grounded in fact as the statements made criticizing it. This appearance violates what "our" episteme holds to be true, and therefore violates enwiki policy. ] (]) 11:08, 29 March 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::Changed the tag to an inline tag for "tone." The issue is style and wording more then anything, this is not encyclopedic or scholarly. Ideally, the source used here would be a bit less "passionate" about the topic, or that we had one or two more backing it up, but it is a factually accurate reliable source so not going to argue that. | |||
::::On crptids, the best example I've seen for them is ]. One passage from the bigfoot page: | |||
:::::"The most well-known video of an alleged Bigfoot, the Patterson-Gimlin film, was recorded on October 20, 1967, by Roger Patterson and Robert "Bob" Gimlin in an area called Bluff Creek in Northern California. The 59.5-second-long video has become an iconic piece of Bigfoot lore, and continues to be a highly scrutinized, analyzed, and debated subject. Academic experts from related fields have typically judged the film as providing no supportive data of any scientific value, with perhaps the most common proposed explanation being that it was a hoax." | |||
::::Basically formatted: | |||
:::::"X published an article that cryptids are real. Y reviewed the evidence presented, and stated it was factually inaccurate, pointing out omissions, fallacies, and logical flaws. This is in line with the scientific consensus that cryptids are not real." | |||
::::The source that we are basing this paragraph on opens with the line "Dr. Martin Kulldorff, one of the authors of the Great Barrington Declaration (GBD), recently penned an article for his new employer, the right-wing think tank the Brownstone Institute titled “Vaccines Save Lives“." This is a statement of fact, the article existed. It then goes on to detail issues with the article. We do not need to say that the article is error-laden, illogical, or containing omissions because we are just reporting what sources say. I don't know how the second two lines I preposed in the last text block ("Jonathan Howard published a critical response to this in Science-Based Medicine, noting that despite it sounding like an article he might agree with based on the title, the essay is not in line with medical consensus. Howard detailed factual errors, omissions, and logical flaws in this article, stating that this essay "mostly argued against vaccinating children.") make anything about Kulldorff's article look grounded in fact. The rest of the section is more or less what I'm describing here. For example: | |||
:::::"His efforts resulted in the Great Barrington Declaration, an open letter co-authored with Oxford’s Sunetra Gupta and Stanford’s Jay Bhattacharya for the AIER. The document stated that lower-risk groups would develop herd immunity through infection while vulnerable groups should be protected from the virus. The World Health Organization, the National Institutes of Health and other public-health bodies said such a policy lacked a sound scientific basis." | |||
::::Rewording this along the same logic as the text I'm disputing would result in something like: | |||
:::::"His efforts resulted in the error-laden Great Barrington Declaration, an open letter co-authored with Oxford’s Sunetra Gupta and Stanford’s Jay Bhattacharya for the AIER, a conservative libertarian think tank known for spreading climate and health misinformation. The document illogically argued that lower-risk groups would develop herd immunity through infection while vulnerable groups should be protected from the virus based on false information and ommissions. The World Health Organization, the National Institutes of Health and other public-health bodies said such a policy lacked a sound scientific basis." | |||
::::I think the first text is better and less likely to cause accusations of bias. The tone is more scholarly, while maintaining an accurate, grounded, disinterested reflection of what the sources say. ] <sup> (]) </sup> 17:06, 29 March 2024 (UTC) | |||
* Note that this has been forum shopped to ] again. ] (]) 08:05, 31 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
{{reflist-talk}} | |||
Therefore we can not use this SBM article to assert that only one child had died of influenza in the two years previous to the article publication. We also can't use it to say that only one child had died of influenza the year/season before because the SBM article doesn't say that. | |||
== Balancing Contentious Claims == | |||
====Article misattribution==== | |||
''In December 2021, Kulldorff published an essay for the Brownstone Institute in which he argued against children receiving vaccination against COVID-19, falsely claiming that influenza was a greater risk to children than COVID-19. In a critical response published in Science-Based Medicine, Jonathan Howard noted errors and factual inaccuracies in Kulldorff's essay, pointing out that while influenza was responsible for only one child death in the 2020/21 season – while public health mitigation of COVID-19 was in place – COVID-19 killed more than 1,000. In addition to this, Kulldorff's essay omitted that children who are infected with COVID-19 are at risk for rare but serious conditions, such as MIS-C, with 8,862 confirmed cases of children with MIS-C by March of 2023.'' | |||
] "In reality, influenza had been responsible for one child death that year, while COVID-19 had killed more than 1,000." | |||
This paragraph lacks a dispassionate tone and makes a contentious allegation that Kulldorff made false claims without adequate inline citation. This has been brought up by multiple editors, multiple times and is based on a single, biased source (see other posts on Jonathan Howard's opinion page). I propose the changes below, including a new citation to the CDC, which has finally acknowledged that "overall, flu seems to cause more severe illness in young children than COVID-19." https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/flu-vs-covid19.html | |||
The SBM article does not say that COVID-19 killed more than 1,000 that year. It says that 1,000 were killed during the "past two years": | |||
''In December 2021, Kulldorff published an essay for the Brownstone Institute in which he argued against children receiving vaccination against COVID-19 and claimed that influenza was a greater risk to children than COVID-19. In a critical response published in Science-Based Medicine, Jonathan Howard argued Kulldorff's essay contained errors and factual inaccuracies, pointing out that while influenza was responsible for only one child death in the 2020/21 season – while public health mitigation of COVID-19 was in place – COVID-19 killed more than 1,000. In addition to this, Kulldorff's essay omitted that children who are infected with COVID-19 are at risk for rare but serious conditions, such as MIS-C, with 8,862 confirmed cases of children with MIS-C by March of 2023. The flu seems to cause more severe illness in young children than COVID-19 overall, according to the CDC in 2024.'' ] (]) 02:15, 22 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
{{Quote frame |The past two years, with COVID-19 mitigation in place, the flu killed just one child. During this same period, according to the CDC’s Covid Data Tracker, over 1,000 children have died of COVID-19 in the US, with mitigations in place, making it one of the leading causes of pediatric deaths. Even in normal years, the flu killed fewer children than COVID-19.|Jonathan Howard |}} | |||
:Your concerns were heard in the section right up the page, 'Neutrality and tone on disputed section "Views on COVID-19"' you did not get consensus at that time to change the article, and I see nothing has changed since then. Your 'new citation' cannot be used here without resorting to improper ]. ] (]) 02:29, 22 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
While it looks to me like influenza, during a typical season, kills fewer children than COVID-19 did during the period the SBM article references, I can't find a good source discussing this in context of Kulldorff's assertion that 'kids are at less risk from COVID than from influenza during a typical influenza year.' | |||
::The existing paragraph already synthesizes extensively, both with regard to MIS-C and in repeating selected details from Howard's flawed analysis but not others, such as 1090 child deaths during the influenza pandemic compared to 527 from covid in 2021. Should we strip all of that out? My main concern is that Misplaced Pages should not editorialize on one side of this contentious issue--especially given the new CDC information. In the 2023-2024 season more children were hospitalized with the flu than Covid-19, despite higher vaccination rates.https://www.cdc.gov/resp-net/dashboard/index.html ] (]) 03:15, 22 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::Repeating things from a source that is actually on point and directly discussing Kuldorff's work is clearly not synthesis (nor is it editorializing) so there is no need to strip anything out. Attempting to add new information by interpreting datasets yourself, though, is synthesis. Exactly that has been discussed at length on this talk page before, feel free to read those discussions in the archives. ] (]) 03:22, 22 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
In an interview with Unherd earlier this year, Kulldorff re-asserted himself and the statement was unchecked by Freddie Sayers, the interviewer: | |||
::::''In December 2021, Kulldorff published an essay for the Brownstone Institute in which he argued against children receiving vaccination against COVID-19, claiming that influenza was a greater risk to children than COVID-19. In a critical response published in Science-Based Medicine, Jonathan Howard claimed errors and factual inaccuracies in Kulldorff's essay, pointing out that COVID-19’s pediatric death toll would soon--one year into the pandemic--surpass the 1,090 during the H1N1 influenza pandemic. In addition to this, Kulldorff's essay omitted that children who are infected with COVID-19 are at risk for rare but serious conditions, such as MIS-C, from which 52 children had died.'' ] (]) 03:34, 22 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::We've also spent a lot of time on this talk page discussing how presenting this as two competing opinions is ], and that is not something permitted by policy here. ] (]) 03:38, 22 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
{{Quote frame |While kids can, do get COVID, there’s more than 1,000-fold difference in mortality between the youngest and the oldest. So they are at very minimal risk. They are at less risk from COVID death than from, from influenza death during a typical influenza year.|Martin Kulldorff|}} | |||
::::::The CDC says that overall, flu seems to cause more severe illness in young children than COVID-19. ] (]) 03:47, 22 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::You'd need a secondary source to explicitly relate that to Kulldorff's essay, if only because the secondary source would correctly state that using stats about severity in a vaccinated population doesn't really justify claims that we shouldn't vaccinate people. ] (]) 03:50, 22 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
====Proposed statement==== | |||
::::::::No that is not needed--I want to remove the word "falsely" because it is not true, or contentious at best and is a red flag. We don't have to add the source to remove our own editorialization. ] (]) 03:55, 22 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
I propose the following to replace the statement: | |||
:::::::::Nah, it's the mainstream scientific opinion, and we need to keep that right where it is to avoid ] issues. It is not remotely 'editorialization'. ] (]) 04:02, 22 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::A bold claim when, according to the CDC, overall the flu seems to cause more severe illness in young children than COVID-19.https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/flu-vs-covid19.html This is also reflected in child vaccination rates, which is about 42% updated for flu and 10% updated for Covid. https://www.cdc.gov/respiratory-viruses/data/vaccination-trends.html. ] (]) 04:20, 22 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
:Kulldorff published an essay in December, 2021 for the Brownstone Institute in which he claimed that children have a higher mortality risk from the annual influenza than from COVID-19. In the same essay, he asserted that it "will take years" to understand the risk profile of the vaccines for children and therefore we don't know if there is more harm than good done in vaccinating children. Kulldorff re-asserted his assessment of the risk of influenza vs COVID-19 in children in July, 2022 during an interview by Freddie Sayers of Unherd. | |||
:::::::Yeah, after three years of vaccinating children against COVID-19. ] ]] 03:51, 22 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::::Are you familiar with the relative vaccination rates for children? ] (]) 03:56, 22 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
It reads a bit awkward I think, but can be massaged here, in talk, ] | |||
:::::::::It does not matter. What matters is that you are trying to use the current situation (with COVID being not as dangerous as before) as a reason go gainsay what Howard said back then. The CDC sources you linked do not mention Kulldorff and are therefore not useable in this article. You need a competent person saying that Kulldorff had a point back then. Your own conclusions (or insinuations) are not allowed because of ]. | |||
:::::::::This is like arguing that quarantines against the Black Death in Italy in 1348 were wrong because nobody is dying of the Black Death now. | |||
] (<sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub>) 16:17, 22 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::1000 is still bigger than 1. --] (]) 08:49, 22 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::Covid was always comparable or lower risk to children than the average year flu. Even in 2020 the child death rate from Covid was comparable to the typical flu death rate among unvaccinated children. That a lockdown reduced flu deaths one year is completely irrelevant to Kulldorff’s claim because the flu is a risk of average daily life, like driving a car. We don’t lockdown because of the flu risk, it is a persistent risk we live with. It was always a straw man by Howard to attack Kulldorff with a special case flu risk, but it has aged even worse. Now we have two years of data showing that Kulldorff was probably correct that the flu has more risk for children than Covid. To the point now the Misplaced Pages editorialization contradicts even the CDC. We dont need a Misplaced Pages-acceptable secondary source to remove editorial comments that are against policy and contradict the CDC. ] (]) 14:41, 22 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
:{{Tq|that is unsourced or poorly sourced}} - See ] as well. We've been over this before, you don't get to wave your hands, call a perfectly reliable source 'poor' and keep content out of the article based solely on your say-so. ] (]) 16:27, 22 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
:: |
::::::::::: I repeat: If you want to add sources to the Kulldorff article, the source needs to mention Kulldorff. That is the minimum requirement. Your theories about flu and COVID do not belong in the article. Publish them in a scientific journal, then we can use them. Until then, bye. --] (]) 15:09, 22 December 2024 (UTC) | ||
:The current text is the result of compromise and discussion. You could look into the discussion logs and see that I'm one of the editors that has brought up issues surrounding tone and neutrality, which is why I'm weighing in now. The text we have resulted from extensive discussion on this talk page at the . That said, I see you were part of that discussion in June, so should already be aware of this. @] did a good job of tempering out the harsh language we used previously while maintaining the content. The sources say what they say, and as long as we are clearly attributing the claims to the sources, I'm satisfied with the text as is, and I believe an adequate consensus was reached. Unless new sources are released that are extremely specific to this exact set of claims, I don't think we will be able to change much in the near or distant future. ] <sup> (]) </sup> 22:32, 23 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::] states the following: | |||
:::{{quote frame|Context matters tremendously, and some sources may or may not be suitable for certain uses depending on the situation.}} | |||
:::Even when a source such as ] is considered ''generally'' reliable, that does not mean it is considered ''universally'' or ''unquestionably'' reliable. | |||
:::The SBM article is factually inaccurate in stating that there has ever been two years of only 1 child, influenza-related death. The author's own source for the statement clearly shows that. The designation "2020-2021" is an influenza season. It does not indicate calendar years 2020 and 2021. | |||
:::] (<sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub>) 17:17, 22 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
::It's not my "say-so." It's ]. | |||
::The statement "In reality, influenza had been responsible for one child death in that two year period..." is factually inaccurate according to the source provided by the SBM article. A two year period would include two influenza seasons (2019-2020 and 2020-2021). During those two periods, there were 200 total deaths. Therefore the statement is factually inaccurate. The only influenza season with only 1 child death was 2020-2021, which is not two years, according to how the CDC tracks influenza seasons. | |||
::] (<sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub>) 17:13, 22 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
:::A rephrase into slightly different terminology does not equal 'factually inaccurate'. The difference in death totals for the two diseases over the same period is accurately reported by the source. ] (]) 17:29, 22 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
::::{{talk quote block|text=The difference in death totals for the two diseases over the same period is accurately reported by the source.|by=MrOllie|ts=17:29, 22 October 2022 (UTC)|oldid=1117611903}} | |||
::::It most certainly ''is not'' accurate. | |||
::::The source provided (the ) unambiguously indicates that only one influenza season had only 1 child, influenza-related death: season 2020-2021. | |||
::::The designation of flu season "2020-2021" does not indicate 24 months of 2020-2021. According to the CDC, this is how they track and designate flu seasons: | |||
::::"The exact timing and duration of flu seasons varies, but flu activity often begins to increase in October. Most of the time flu activity peaks between December and February, although significant activity can last as late as May." | |||
::::The statement in the SBM article "The past two years, with COVID-19 mitigation in place, the flu killed just one child." is therefore factually incorrect according to the author's own source. | |||
::::17:43, 22 October 2022 (UTC) ] (<sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub>) 17:43, 22 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
:::::I disagree entirely. But rather getting into the weeds, I'll just say that we cannot substitute your ] of the primary sources for what the actual reliable secondary source is saying. ] (]) 17:47, 22 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
::::::The wording is imprecise. From the SBM link the "two years" comment means the period straddling 2020/21. I have tweaked the text to reflect this. ] (]) 18:28, 22 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
:::::::Your statement "From the SBM link the "two years" comment means the period straddling 2020/21." is original research. We don't know what the author ''might have'' meant outside of what is actually written. What is written is "two years" not 'the 2020/21 season.' The author does not use the word "season" outside of quoting the CDC about the 2004-2005 influenza season. | |||
:::::::Therefore made by you is unsourced, ], and ]: "In reality, influenza had been responsible for one child death in the 2020/21 season, while COVID-19 had killed more than 1,000." | |||
:::::::What if an editor added a statement that Kulldorff ''actually meant something else'' when what is written is clearly not that. Would you accept that edit? | |||
:::::::<ins>Furthermore, a source in which the "wording is imprecise," as you say, is not an appropriate source for a ].;Edited 18:52, 22 October 2022 (UTC)</ins> | |||
:::::::] (<sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub>) 18:46, 22 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
::::::::It's not original research. It's clicking the link. The "two years" are 2020 and 2021. Obvious really. ] (]) 18:49, 22 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::The year 2020 is influenza season 2019-2020. In that season, there were 199 influenza-related deaths. | |||
:::::::::The year 2021 is influenza season 2020-2021. In that season, there was 1 influenza-related death. | |||
:::::::::] (<sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub>) 18:55, 22 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::Which is what the article says. Glad that's all agreed. Can we close this now? ] (]) 18:58, 22 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::We most certainly are not in agreement. | |||
:::::::::::An editor stating what they think an author meant to say is ]. The statement is unsourced. | |||
:::::::::::] (<sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub>) 19:02, 22 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::::The language of the source is slightly ambiguous. Your interpretation is particularly uncharitable, others disagree. The point (that there is a 1000x difference in deaths over the same period) is accurate and continues to be well supported. That you disagree about the wording the source used does not make the source inaccurate, and that does not mean the statement in the Misplaced Pages article is somehow 'unsourced.' ] (]) 23:27, 22 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::::"The point (that there is a 1000x difference in deaths over the same period) is accurate and continues to be well supported." | |||
:::::::::::::It is absolutely NOT accurate and that is the point. Can you clearly argue that there was only 1 child, influenza-related death in the two years of 2020 and 2021? What is the source that indicates that and is that source used in the SBM article? | |||
:::::::::::::The statement that there was only 1 death in two years (which is exactly what the SBM article says) is false to facts based on the source provided by SBM. | |||
:::::::::::::Any deviation from that, any interpretation of what "two years" might mean beyond "two years" is original research. Any statement by an editor that "two years" actually means 'six-to-eight months spanning two calendar years' is ]. | |||
:::::::::::::Ambiguous, imprecise language is not fitting of a BLP. | |||
:::::::::::::If the situation was flipped, and someone was arguing that Kulldorff really meant one thing, when he clearly wrote something else, would you accept it? | |||
:::::::::::::] (<sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub>) 01:26, 23 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::::::Perhaps the SBM writer is describing the period from the end of flu season in spring 2020 (coinciding with the start of anti-COVID measures) to the publishing of the article in December 2021? That would cover two separate years and round up to two years, although it is closer to 19 months than 24. ] (]) 02:01, 23 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::::::yes, that would fit with the wording "the past two years, with COVID-19 mitigation in place". ] (]) 03:30, 23 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::::::I think we have consensus that this SBM article is and worded to the point where editors are trying their best to make the article same something that it does not say. | |||
:::::::::::::::Because it is imprecise and ambiguous, the SBM article does not meet the requirements of ]. The statement as it is currently written is unsourced and disputed and therefore should be immediately removed without further discussion. | |||
:::::::::::::::] (<sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub>) 02:14, 23 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::::::::It is much easier to win an argument if you can take other people's words out of context to claim they agree with you, but that is not how discussions work. ] (]) 02:18, 23 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::::::::If you click the CDC link (try it!) it all becomes obvious that the "two years" are those of 20/21 season. The source does not say "24 month contiguous period", as {{u|Michael.C.Wright}} seems to be ''interpreting'' it. Even if it did it does not alter the underlying point that flu is not more hazardous that COVID for children, and that this relationship provides no logical basis for opposing childhood vaccination. ] (]) 03:18, 23 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
:::::::This is still inaccurate. According to the CDC's official COVID-19 fatality count (https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid_weekly/index.htm) there were 234 pediatric COVID-19 deaths during the 2020/21 flu season. This statement: "In reality, influenza had been responsible for one child death in the 2020/21 season, while public health mitigation of COVID-19 was in place – COVID-19 had, in contrast, killed more than 1,000." implies that 1,000 children died of COVID-19 during the 2020/21 flu season, when in reality that count is based on all COVID-19 pediatric deaths through December 2021. Even if we were to use April 2020-December 2021, the official tally is 801. It is simply inaccurate to say that the flu killed 1 child while COVID-19 killed more than 1,000 over the same period. | |||
:::::::Unfortunately, the facts are not on your or the psychiatrist author's side. Considering there is clearly a lack of consensus that the paragraph as written is accurate or appropriate, it should be removed until a consensus is reached. Otherwise, you're trying very hard to find a way to keep it in the article. ] (]) 15:28, 24 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
::::::::We're trying very hard to respect our policy on ], which prevents us from substituting our own judgment in an attempt to undermine reliable sources as you are trying to do here. ] (]) 15:40, 24 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::It's not a matter of undermining reliable sources. It's pointing out factual inaccuracies. The paragraph in the Misplaced Pages article, as written, is factually inaccurate. Does it matter if the source of the inaccuracy is from an SBM article? Let's phrase this a different way. If the SBM article said that the flu killed 500 children during the 2020/21 season, which is obviously inaccurate, would it still be appropriate to say that in the Misplaced Pages article as if it's true? ] (]) 15:46, 24 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::We can only speculate about the exact data and time periods used, thus, any attempt to come up with our own numbers to 'prove' inaccuracy is original research. We don't do that here. The only policy way to undercut this source would be with another reliable source that specifically contradicts it. I'm sure in the hypothetical situation you suggest sources calling out the error in SBM would be available. ] (]) 15:49, 24 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::I've already linked to the CDC's COVID-19 fatality page which directly contradicts both the SBM source and the paragraph in this Misplaced Pages article. I'll post it again: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid_weekly/index.htm | |||
:::::::::::Should we consider the CDC or SBM more reliable for COVID-19 fatality data? ] (]) 15:56, 24 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::::That you found some other data set that doesn't exactly match the article is irrelevant. ] (]) 16:00, 24 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::::It's time to get others involved to resolve this dispute. You clearly aren't engaging in good faith and are more interested in arguing than ensuring the Misplaced Pages article is quality. | |||
:::::::::::::Here's my reasoning for saying you aren't engaging in good faith: In your 2nd to last statement, you said it would be necessary to find another reliable source that directly contradicts the SBM article. I posted the CDC's count which directly contradicts it and which is infinitely more reliable than an opinion piece on SBM, and now you say that it's irrelevant. ] (]) 16:08, 24 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::::::A source that directly contradicts SBM would say something like 'SBM is wrong and here is why'. That is not what you are presenting here. ] (]) 16:13, 24 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::::::Neither the SBM article or Kulldorff's essay say that Kulldorff said children should not be vaccinated. Keep it up, you're only providing more evidence that you aren't engaging in good faith. ] (]) 16:54, 24 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::::::::Quoting Kulldorff's essay: {{tq|COVID vaccines are important for older high-risk people, and their care-takers. Those with prior natural infection do not need it. Nor children.}} ] (]) 17:10, 24 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::::::::And SBM: {{Tq|I was dismayed that it mostly argued against vaccinating children.}} ] (]) 17:11, 24 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::::::::Which is entirely different than Kulldorff saying children ''should not'' be vaccinated. ] (]) 17:21, 24 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::::::::::Not really; it would be different from him saying "must not". "Should not" is just a recommendation against. It was maybe too weak if anything. I've strengthened it. ] (]) 17:27, 24 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
{{outdent|::::::::::::::::::}} Just noting here that blocks have been placed on both Michael.C.Wright (indefinite) and IP 71.128.145.158 (1 week). - ] (]) 18:36, 24 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
:] eh. While whining about bad faith. Classic. ] (]) 18:41, 24 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
::] with checkuser privilege looked at the sockpuppet accusation and "In my opinion, the technical evidence says to me that this IP and Michael.C.Wright are not the same person." ] (]) 18:02, 11 November 2022 (UTC) | |||
I read the article, saw that a paragraph was incorrect and following the Misplaced Pages guidelines, removed it. Now I see all the communication about this single paragraph in the past. This entire thread already makes clear that this paragraph simply has no place in this article, but I'll take some time to explain why: | |||
The quoted SMB article makes false claims. The primary false claim, which you seem to have missed in your discussion is this: | |||
It claims that "During this same period, according to the CDC’s Covid Data Tracker, over 1,000 children have died of COVID-19 in the US". However, while the definition of an influenza-death is "Someone who died of influenza", a Covid-19 death is "Someone who tested positive within 60 days prior to their death or where Covid-19 possible played a role in the chain of events that led to their death". The claim that over 1000 children died of Covid is therefore false. Fact is that there is no available data of how many children died of Covid-19 in the US. This of course also means that you can't simply compare influenza-deaths to Covid-deaths. That's comparing apples with pears. However, we do know of many European countries how many children died *of* Covid-19, as the ministry of health of Germany, the United Kingdom <ref>https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/all-children-who-died-of-covid-19-were-already-seriously-ill-jlxr8mkxq</ref>, the Netherlands and Sweden publicly disclosed this information. The combined number of children that died *of* Covid in those 4 countries (with a combined population of 179 million people) is... ZERO. Not a single child died of Covid-19 in those countries. So when we actually compare apples to apples in these countries, it's clear that Kulldorff's statement is 100% correct. Don't forget that Martin Kulldorff is of Swedish descent. He knows these numbers. It's actually common knowledge in Europe that for children influenza is more dangerous than Covid-19. I'm quite surprised to see that apparently many Americans didn't know this. | |||
Also as mentioned earlier, the author is comparing influenza in years without influenza to Covid-19. That's not scientific at all for a statement like he makes. | |||
I'd like to remind you that this is the English language Misplaced Pages, not the American Misplaced Pages. I see claims in the discussion above, which from the view of an European make no sense at all. For example, many European countries never vaccinated children < 12 years as it didn't make sense from a health perspective. The Danish minister of health actually admitted that vaccinating the 12 - 18 years group was a mistake. You seem set on defaming Martin Kulldorff on the premise that he thinks that it makes no sense to vaccinate children for Covid-19. In Europe, this is the mainstream thought among many vaccinologists and immunologists. | |||
So I hope it's clear now for everyone that the paragraph has to go. It makes false claims to defame a famous epidemiologist and is spreading disinformation. ] (]) 20:52, 24 July 2023 (UTC) martdj | |||
:Your ] with a reliable source do not actually make that source unreliable. We should continue to follow the sources we have. ] (]) 20:58, 24 July 2023 (UTC) | |||
::I factually state why the source is incorrect, and all you do is claim it is correct without adding any information to back your statement. Please, don't compare my facts with your personal opinion. | |||
::I'd like to hear why you feel that this paragraph is in any way relevant to this piece? What does it add that's important for readers to know? So far, I'm getting the idea that you just don't like the guy because of his views on Covid-19. Misplaced Pages should be about facts. Not your opinions or feelings. This is unworthy of a Misplaced Pages editor. ] (]) 21:19, 24 July 2023 (UTC) | |||
== False? == | |||
{{archive top|Edit warrior was indef'd. ] (]) 05:28, 29 December 2022 (UTC)}} | |||
Do we have consensus for "false" in {{tqd|"while promoting the <ins>false</ins> promise that vulnerable people could be protected from the virus"}}? It had been stable (I think) in the article before the recent edit war. Hoping people can chime in so we can put together an edit request. ] (] / ]) 18:05, 24 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
:Need to say false for NPOV. The idea is ridiculous/impossible (per sources) so off-handedly calling it just a "promise" is not good. ] (]) 18:16, 24 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
::I agree that the changed language of "promoting the promise" is inadequate, and that NPOV requires an indication that said promise was widely considered impossible to keep. A refquote with the word "false" or very similar language would be advisable for verifiability. ] (]) 18:37, 24 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
:::Right, and it's not like this hasn't been discussed ''ad nauseum'' already. ] (]) 18:58, 24 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
:::How about this quote from the cited SBD source: {{tqd|"To boil it all down, if you listen to epidemiologists and public health scientists, you’ll soon realize that it’s impossible to protect the vulnerable from a virus that’s rapidly spreading among the entire population, even if the risk of death or severe disease is much lower in the young"}}? ] (] / ]) 19:25, 24 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
::::I agree that it is a helpful refquote. ] (]) 19:33, 24 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
:::::Added! ] (] / ]) 23:52, 27 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
::::::And it's been reverted by the same new user that was edit-warring before. We have consensus that we should say "false promise" and include the quotation, so this would appear to be disruptive editing against consensus. ] (]) 07:33, 28 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
:::::::Confirming consensus. That new user is also ]. --] (]) 08:50, 28 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
{{u|AhmetYu}}, care to chime in? Are you familiar with ], which includes the guidance {{tqd|"In an article on a fringe topic, if a notable fringe theory is primarily described by amateurs and self-published texts, verifiable and reliable criticism of the fringe theory need not be published in a peer reviewed journal"}}? Since the GBD is a fringe think tank publication, peer-reviewed works are not required to present the mainstream view. ] (] / ]) 09:13, 28 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
:Categorizing GBD as fringe is pretty fringe, its a declaration signed by many reputable epidemiologists and scientists from worlds most known universities. Regardless, their declaration is for sure not "primarily described by amateurs". Mr. Kulldorff with his background as a professor of medicine at Harvard for 18 Years for sure doesn't count an amateur in this specific context. Therefore, the "guidance" you cite is not valid at all here. As I have described it in the editing history already, anyone with NPOV and common sense would require a peer-reviewed research in this specific and sensitive context before making an unnecessarily subjective distinction like that. Taking a deeper look, so many medicine or biology professors signed that declaration, that its literally a misinformation crime to simply call their declaration here easily false based on a single persons opinion just because you guys think those professors are "amateurs". | |||
:"Misplaced Pages is written from a neutral point of view" - This is one of Misplaced Pages's main principles, leaving the word "False" here is a very very clear violation of that principle no matter how you try to game it. Again, these people, including Mr. Kulldorff are clearly not amateurs, instead of trying to falsify their declaration without reliable scientific sources we should simply report about things in a neutral way. One important and additional argument you guys are missing for removing the word "False" is that already in the next sentence it is anyways said that "The declaration was criticized as being unethical and infeasible and was widely rejected", that sentence is the limit of NPOV, going beyond that sentence is not NPOV anymore, its clearly a different intent. ] (]) 15:11, 28 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
::Neutral means aligning with the ]. But those the GBD is a load of hooey. Misplaced Pages is bound to reflect that knowledge. ] (]) 15:20, 28 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
:::"load of hooey".. That is your OPINION, and maybe also the opinion of many others, but it is not a scientifically proven fact which you can use here at Misplaced Pages, NPOV requires to inform the reader about GBD and Mr Kulldorff without violating NPOV. And again, if you have a sound peer-reviewed source for that claim, bring it on. ] (]) 15:34, 28 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
::::No, it's the evaluation of on-point sources. So Misplaced Pages reflects that knowledge, to be neutral. Usually sources debunking fringe nonsenses like this aren't peer-reviewed, but ] is a golden source for fringe material, and generally reliable for assertions of fact. ] (]) 15:37, 28 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
:::::General reliability is not sufficient in this context, WP:SBM "is also not a peer-reviewed publication with respect to WP:MEDRS" according to the reference you point to. Aagain, for the sake of NPOV a peer reviewed source is needed here, opinions alone are obviously not sufficient with this one. ] (]) 15:45, 28 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
::You seem to be confusing 'neutral point of view' with ], which is a common error but entirely unsupported by the NPOV policy. ] (]) 15:25, 28 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
:::Read yourself what you are referring to: "We do not take a stand on these issues as encyclopedia writers, for or against; we merely omit this information where including it would unduly legitimize it, and otherwise include and describe these ideas in their proper context concerning established scholarship and the beliefs of the wider world." | |||
:::Using the word "False" here is clearly taking a stand AGAINST it, and that without a scientific and peer-reviewed reference although the context clearly requires it. I would like to underline that Mr. Kulldorff here is a professor of medicine at Harvard for 18 Years, he is no amateur in this context. ] (]) 15:31, 28 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
::::Using the word "False" is mirroring what the best available sources say, and that is what we're supposed to do. Misplaced Pages also takes a position that the Earth is round rather than flat, and that is not a problem with NPOV. You've also already been pointed to ] - we do not require peer-reviewed references here. Sometimes people with impressive credentials are just wrong, and Misplaced Pages will say so when they are. ] (]) 15:34, 28 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
:::::We are not supposed to violate NPOV, if you wish that badly to inform the user about people having the opinion that its "False", you simply do it, like with the next sentence, you don't need to break neutrality for that. | |||
:::::I don't care if the Earth is round, flat or elliptic, thats another discussion, I don't know what you are referring to concretely, I don't know what scientific research has been delivered by which side. | |||
:::::And concerning what I have been pointed to with WP:PARITY, there it mentions that peer reviewed criticism is not necessary in case the corresponding their is "primarily described by amateurs", don't let me repeat myself unnecessarily, Mr. Kulldorff is clearly no amateur, therefore what I have been pointed to has in this context not argumentative relevance. ] (]) 15:40, 28 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
::::::You're wrong. The use of the word "false" is required by our NPOV policy. If you continue edit-warring you are likely to be blocked. To get further opinions on whether GBD is fringe, raise a query at ]. I suggest this matter is now otherwise closed. ] (]) 15:43, 28 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
:::::::You are wrong, it is the opposite of what our main principle dictate, my argumentation is valid until you can deliver a meaningful counter argument for keeping "False". If you continue edit-warring you should rather be blocked. If you and readers here have noticed it, one can clearly observe that you seem to pushing your own opinion here while I care only about being truly neutral. ] (]) 15:48, 28 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
::::::::Maybe the combined wisdom of several established editors with tens of thousands of edits between them aligns better with Misplaced Pages's "main principles" than an ] trying to mangle a lede in a ] manner? ] (]) 15:51, 28 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::And thats where we have arrived, because you have absolutely no counter-arguments, the only thing you have left is trying to discredit me by labeling me as WP:SPA. Yea, if the majority of "experienced" editors say so, they must be right, consensus indeed. People following Hitler had the same mentality, they were the majority back then. Congratulations. ] (]) 15:56, 28 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::A textbook example of ] that got this editor blocked indefinitely ... ] (]) 18:58, 28 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
::::::Again, you don't seem to understand what NPOV is. It is not ]. You are seizing on a rhetorical device in ] - that amateurs are used as an example in one sentence does not mean you can ignore everything else in a four paragraph section. ] (]) 15:44, 28 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
:::::::Again, you rather don't seem to understand what NPOV is, using the world "False" here is not neutral at all without any scientific reference. You can't simply ignore the word "amateurs" there just because its fitting better into your intention then, it is not our problem if the source you are pointing us to does not describe what you want. ] (]) 15:52, 28 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
{{archive bottom}} | |||
== SaTScan == | |||
A new topic, unrelated to the rest of the lively discussion on this talk page. | |||
Martin Kulldorff's software ] is very influential in the literature around and epidemiology. I created the page without knowing anything about the creator, and coming to his page I see that there is currently significant debate on current events/contributions. | |||
Starting this topic because I think this page could focus a bit more on his academic contributions. Also, requesting help with the SaTScan page I have created if anyone wants to look over it. A section mentioning its use with COVID-19 might be useful. ] <sup> (]) </sup> 22:13, 11 February 2023 (UTC) | |||
== Is Kulldorff an epidemiologist? == | |||
The article's lede states that Kulldorff is a ], though does not mention that he is a ]. I think the specialty might be worthy to mention, as it seems a good amount of sources support his assertion in the field ( </nowiki>] </nowiki>] </nowiki>]). In a court-document under the New Civil Liberties Alliance, Kulldorff's background states under penalty of perjury: {{TQ|Dr. Martin Kulldorff is a Professor of Medicine at Harvard Medical School, and he | |||
is a biostatistician and epidemiologist at Brigham and Women’s Hospital}} ( </nowiki>] ). @] ] (]) 16:55, 6 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
:See previous discussion and dispute resolution on this. The only source which seems to consider it in depth explicitly says he is NOT an epidemiologist. So stick with what's certain. ] (]) 17:02, 6 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
::Do you know which discussion the source is mentioned in? I haven't been a part of the previous discussions, so finding one source among the tons of discussions about Kulldorff is like finding a needle in a haystack. ] (]) 17:09, 6 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
:::See. and this page's archives. ] (]) 17:16, 6 May 2023 (UTC) |
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Is Kulldorff an epidemiologist?
The article's lede states that Kulldorff is a biostatistician, though does not mention that he is a epidemiologist. I think the specialty might be worthy to mention, as it seems a good amount of sources support his assertion in the field ( ). In a court-document under the New Civil Liberties Alliance, Kulldorff's background states under penalty of perjury: Dr. Martin Kulldorff is a Professor of Medicine at Harvard Medical School, and he
is a biostatistician and epidemiologist at Brigham and Women’s Hospital
( ). @Bon courage GuardianH (talk) 16:55, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
- See previous discussion and dispute resolution on this. The only source which seems to consider it in depth explicitly says he is NOT an epidemiologist. So stick with what's certain. Bon courage (talk) 17:02, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
- Do you know which discussion the source is mentioned in? I haven't been a part of the previous discussions, so finding one source among the tons of discussions about Kulldorff is like finding a needle in a haystack. GuardianH (talk) 17:09, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
- See. and this page's archives. Bon courage (talk) 17:16, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
- Do you know which discussion the source is mentioned in? I haven't been a part of the previous discussions, so finding one source among the tons of discussions about Kulldorff is like finding a needle in a haystack. GuardianH (talk) 17:09, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
Contentious BLP material?
Concerning this removal, I am not seeing any contentious BLP material in the passage removed. And concerning the removing editor's aspersions about the source, WP:RSP has Science-Based medicine green-listed. Therefore I see no grounds for removal. Newimpartial (talk) 19:20, 25 July 2023 (UTC)
- I agree with Newimpartial. I don't see a valid reason for removal and I think a case needs to be made here before it's removed again. — Czello 21:26, 25 July 2023 (UTC)
Neutrality and tone on disputed section "Views on COVID-19"
Section has been previously disputed and I believe current wording is not ideal. I rephrased it to say the same thing with "nonjudgmental language" per Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view and Misplaced Pages:Biographies of living persons. This topic is clearly disputed between researchers, and factually the rephrasing I did is accurate, more neutral, and less judgmental.
The sentence in question is uncited and uses the words "error-laden," "falsely claimed", and "illogically argued." I added the citation to the sentence in question to clearly show where it was from. My rephrasing states objectively that he published an essay with claims, and then moves the criticism to the following sentence, and clearly states that it is the words from the source publication Science-Based Medicine. This reorganization is a statement of fact, that Kulldorff published an essay, followed by the opinion on that essay, which clearly shifts the tone from looking like the opinion of Misplaced Pages, to stating the facts around the controversial publication. As this is a contentious topic, and the citation is single opinion piece on a living person, it is important to be as neutral as possible to avoid being perceived as bias.
As the change I made maintains the same exact meaning as the previous section while adding context and eliminating what could be seen as editorializing, I struggle to see the resistance. Previous discussions have shown that the SBM article is contentious, and many users have brought up criticisms of this sentence, source, and entire paragraph. I believe the amount of dispute on it warrants at least considering that it does not appear neutral, and that the rewording I proposed is both accurate and more neutral to respect the amount of dispute that has clearly happened.
Original text
In December 2021 Kulldorff published an error-laden essay for the Brownstone Institute in which he falsely claimed that influenza was more hazardous to children than COVID-19, and on that basis illogically argued against children receiving COVID-19 vaccination. In reality, influenza had been responsible for one child death in the 2020/21 season, while public health mitigation of COVID-19 was in place – COVID-19 had, in contrast, killed more than 1,000.
Proposed revision
In December 2021 Kulldorff published an essay for the Brownstone Institute in which he claimed that influenza was more hazardous to children than COVID-19, and on that basis argued against children receiving COVID-19 vaccination. This essay was criticized by the website Science-Based Medicine for containing errors and factual inaccuracies, with influenza responsible for one child death in the 2020/21 season, while public health mitigation of COVID-19 was in place – COVID-19 had, in contrast, killed more than 1,000. GeogSage 20:45, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
- The proposed revision is an improvement because it does not add editorial judgement and is more neutral.
- The original text is questionable for two reasons. First, in the cited critique of Kulldorf's essay, regarding the claim that the annual influenza was more hazardous to children than COVID-19, the critique says:
- "The true flu deaths are higher given incomplete reporting. For example, the CDC would later increase the estimate of deaths to 1,090 during the H1N1 pandemic. COVID-19’s pediatric death toll will soon surpass this grim milestone and undoubtedly would have done so long ago had the policies of the GBD been widely implemented. The single highest estimate from any other year was that 434 deaths may have occurred."
- So a typical annual influenza would be up to 434 deaths and, in a pandemic year, 1090 deaths. How does this compare to Covid? As of 2023 the CDC says 776 (0-4yr) + 1071 (5-18yr) children died from Covid between Jan 2020-June 2023, i.e. averaging 461 per year. These numbers sound close enough that I wouldn't rush to weigh in as a lay editor. Source: https://data.cdc.gov/widgets/nr4s-juj3?mobile_redirect=true
- Second, the CDC article which provided the data for the critique notes "importantly, among reported flu-related deaths in children, about 80% occurred in children who were not fully vaccinated." Thus, when the critique concludes "The numbers are clear, and anyone who claims the flu is more dangerous than COVID-19 for children is either completely ignorant, blatantly lying, or, like Dr. Kulldorff, trying to trick their readers with word games," it is doing so based on an invalid comparison of Covid mortality in 2020-2021 (in an unvaccinated population) with annual influenza mortality (in partially vaccinated populations). I.e. the critique might as well just say that vaccination can reduce mortality.
- Neither of these proves Dr. Kulldorf's essay was correct, but we should be wary of lending Misplaced Pages's voice to this critique. Tikitorch2 (talk) 03:29, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
- I don't think the proposed revision is compliant with wikipedia policy - it takes a BOTHSIDESIST "he said ... but others say ..." approach to questions that are actually settled by science: was flu or Covid a greater risk to children in 2021, and was childhood vaccination an appropriate protective measure in this context. Revisionist text that implies "maybe, maybe not" departs from the clear consensus in the field. Newimpartial (talk) 03:48, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
- Looking through the novel we have written, I believe the current text does not comply with Misplaced Pages policy, and that something better can be used. Trying to take into account feedback, I proposed the following:
- "Kulldorff published an essay titled "Vaccines save lives" for the Brownstone Institute, a right-wing think tank, that has been criticized for factual inaccuracies. Jonathan Howard published a critical response to this in Science-Based Medicine, detailing errors and factual inaccuracies, such as pointing out that while influenza was responsible for one child death in the 2020/21 season while public health mitigation of COVID-19 was in place – COVID-19 had, in contrast, killed more than 1,000."
- I think the above body of text has a better tone, and factually represents the content without the tone problems. That have been pointed out by several editors over time. GeogSage 03:55, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
- I concur with this new text as well.
- With regard to being BOTHSIDESIST, the quote from Howard's critique says "The same is not true for children. Their Covid mortality risk is miniscule and less than the already low risk from the annual influenza, so the vaccine benefit for healthy children is very small." Since Kuldorf said the "annual influenza," not the 2020 or 2021 influenza specifically, whether it is settled that the 2021 flu or 2021 Covid was a greater risk is irrelevant. I.e. people know the risk of the annual influenza, even though they do not know the exact risk of this year's influenza.
- If a critique of Kuldorff essay is to be presented as settled science, surely there is a better critique out there that does not rely on conflating influenza risk post-vaccination with Covid risk pre-vaccination. Tikitorch2 (talk) 02:00, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- On Misplaced Pages we follow the cited sources, you're not going to get far by trying to argue that the cited source is incorrect. And even that has been argued to death - check the talk pages archives. It didn't work then and it won't work now. MrOllie (talk) 02:12, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- I just want the tone of this sentence to sound less like an attack piece in a clickbait article and more encyclopedic. I've tried to suggest alternative text that maintains the same meaning, and even elaborates on the bias in the publisher and moves the critique to the author of the source instead of Wikivoice. What is wrong with the alternative I've suggested, and is there an alternative to the status quo that you would suggest to try to make the tone more encyclopedic? It really seems like Misplaced Pages:Status quo stonewalling at this point. GeogSage 08:30, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- Tikitorch, I'm not understanding your argument here. Kuldorf is making an argument against vaccination, so the pre-vaccination Covid risk seems to be precisely the right one to compare. Newimpartial (talk) 02:24, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- Sure, the current Misplaced Pages text says “In December 2021 Kulldorff published an error-laden essay for the Brownstone Institute in which he falsely claimed that influenza was more hazardous to children than COVID-19.” To your point, we can assume Kulldorf meant Covid risk pre-vaccination, but there no evidence he was comparing it to the annual influenza post vaccination—indeed it more natural to assume he was comparing like populations, I.e. to the annual influenza risk to those without the flu shot. Thus there is not really evidence in the critique of an error in Kuldorff’s essay, only the possibility of two interpretations.
- I think Howard’s interpretation is not the natural one but it’s fine to cite Howard’s published critique. That being said it is editorializing to assert Kulldorff’s essay was “error laden” when the only error cited has a more natural interpretation that is probably true (that the typical annual influenza poses a greater risk to children than Covid did amongst comparably unvaccinated groups). This is also why it is important to accurately cite Howard’s critique where it says “the annual influenza,” not the 2020 influenza. The proposed replacement text also avoids this misquoting of the source. Tikitorch2 (talk) 03:55, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- I see no evidence supporting your supposedly more
natural
interpretation. We were not living in a world in 2021 where it was necessary to choose between Covid and influenza vaccinations, which is the only context in which your comparison between unvaccinated groups would make any sense. - Also, your distinction between "the annual influenza" and the 2021 influenza is without difference - unless you are arguing that some special characteristic of the 2021 mix of influenza strains is reaponsible for its low prevalence that year, rather than the difficult conditions for its spread caused by changed social practices in 2020-21. The "2021 indluenza" was the annual influenza for that year, and was therefore the relevant comparison.
- In short, you seem to belive that Howard is mistaken in finding errors in Kulldorff's work, but I find Howard's reading to be the plausible one, in line with mainstream literature in the discipline, and yours to be an ideosyncratic, small minority view. Newimpartial (talk) 09:23, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- Kulldorff is a scientist; it is unlikely he was comparing the risk to children without the Covid vaccine from Covid to the risk to children with the flu vaccine from influenza. There is no evidence he was other than the opinion of Howard. Kulldorff wrote "The same is not true for children. Their Covid mortality risk is miniscule and less than the already low risk from the annual influenza, so the vaccine benefit for healthy children is very small." A scientific colleague would assume Kulldorff was comparing groups with equivalent vaccination status, or ask him to clarify.
- The most straightforward way to read it is Kulldorff was informing people of the absolute risk due to covid in terms of a risk they know from past experience--the annual influenza. Like you said, it is not necessary to choose between Covid and influenza vaccinations.
- Again, it is fine to cite Howard's opinion that Kulldorff's statement was in error or misleading, but Misplaced Pages should not editorialize a plausible interpretation as the only true one. There is no evidence presented that compares the risk from Covid vs. "the annual influenza", controlling for vaccination status. Can it be settled science that Kulldorff was in error if the critique's method made no attempt to control for the most obvious confounding factor? Tikitorch2 (talk) 00:58, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- This all sounds like highly strained special pleading. As Newimpartial writes, the meaning of the source is plain. Misplaced Pages reflects that. There really is nothing more to add. Bon courage (talk) 05:58, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- Tikitorch, I am perplexed by your apparently original interpretation of "what Kuldorff meant", which isn't supported by the primary source itself nor by any secondary sources. Anyway, if Kuldorff was comparing
the absolute risk of Covid
in the actual, unvaccinated population of children in 2021 to the risk of influenza in a largely vaccinated population in previous years, which is the interpretation you just offered, you fail to note that this confirms Howard's point that this is not a valid, scientific argument against vaccination for Covid. - Also, there is simply no evidence for the n-dimensional chess interpretation you offered previously, that he was comparing unvaccinated Covid risk to influenza risk in an unvaccinated population in a typical previous year. And even had he intended that line of thinking, it wouldn't have been a valid argument against vaccinating children for Covid, because he doesn't take into account the efficacy of each vaccine - and it turns out that vaccination for Covid is significantly more effective in preventing symptoms and mortality than vaccination against influenza
- TL;DR - saying "but he's a scientist!" isn't actually a license for editors to determine what someone should have meant in order to try to prove that their RS critics were wrong. Newimpartial (talk) 14:37, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- Likewise, I am perplexed you say there is simply no evidence that Kulldorff was comparing unvaccinated Covid risk to unvaccinated influenza risk in a typical previous year. At the very top Howard quotes Kulldorff: "The same is not true for children. Their Covid mortality risk is miniscule and less than the already low risk from the annual influenza, so the vaccine benefit for healthy children is very small." Why would a scientist make a relative comparison of mortality risk of two different diseases, without controlling for vaccination status?
- This isn't n-dimensional chess but you do have to do some arithmetic. Everything is in the first two sections of Howard's article. He says that ~1020 children died of Covid through December of 2021, that in a typical year influenza kills about 37-434 children, and during one influenza pandemic 1090 children died. He also says 527 children died of Covid so far in 2021, meaning about 500 died in 2020 (1020 - 527).
- So, from Howard's own critique, we have a little more than 500/yr due to Covid and an average of 235/yr due to Influenza. Howard omits that children are vaccinated for the flu every year, so I am left assuming the average mortality risk to unvaccinated children from influenza is actually greater than Covid. Finally, for the only data point he offers with comparable groups (from the year the flu vaccine failed), influenza was potentially up to twice as deadly as Covid (1090 vs 500).
- I'm sure it will be called "original research" to read the first two sections of the cited source and compare numbers in them, but Howard does not show any errors in Kulldorff's essay except by this misinterpretation of the quote above. The best he can muster is "anyone who claims the flu is more dangerous than COVID-19 for children is...like Dr. Kulldorff, trying to trick their readers with word games." Howard's critique is entirely based on his opinion that Kulldorff is trying to trick readers with word games.
- TL;DR Misplaced Pages's claim that "Kulldorff published an error-laden essay" has no evidence other than an assertion made by Howard of "factual errors" based on misinterpreting Kulldorff's words, which isn't actually a license for editors to determine Howard's interpretation was correct. Tikitorch2 (talk) 03:00, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
I'm sure it will be called "original research"
You're right about that. And you're arguing the wrong things, here. On Misplaced Pages we cannot substitute your judgment for that of the cited source. MrOllie (talk) 03:04, 31 May 2024 (UTC)- I was not proposing text for the Kulldorff’s page based on my “research,” merely pointing out the cited source is not very scientific in its methodology. On the basis of reading the source and noting the methodological flaws of its main supporting evidence, I think the proposed tone improvements by Geogsage are better than the current text, which you are ignoring.
- I don’t know why I’m offering evidence to you but it doesn’t take much effort to question this source. For example in one of its secondary points it says “Moreover, there’s no plausible reason to think children will have a reaction to a vaccine years from now that is not apparent today. Though it’s standard anti-vaccine hogwash to claim otherwise, vaccines almost never have side effects that aren’t apparent within a short time.”
- He somehow manages to contradict himself within just two sentences to anyone who knows the definition of plausible. Tikitorch2 (talk) 04:52, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
- I see no evidence supporting your supposedly more
- On Misplaced Pages we follow the cited sources, you're not going to get far by trying to argue that the cited source is incorrect. And even that has been argued to death - check the talk pages archives. It didn't work then and it won't work now. MrOllie (talk) 02:12, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- I don't think the proposed revision is compliant with wikipedia policy - it takes a BOTHSIDESIST "he said ... but others say ..." approach to questions that are actually settled by science: was flu or Covid a greater risk to children in 2021, and was childhood vaccination an appropriate protective measure in this context. Revisionist text that implies "maybe, maybe not" departs from the clear consensus in the field. Newimpartial (talk) 03:48, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
References
- ^ Howard J (23 December 2021). "I Disagree With an Article Called 'Vaccines Save Lives'". Science-Based Medicine.
- Yuck, the proposed re-write is POV as it implies the error is just an opinion. This has already been discussed to death. Misplaced Pages needs to be clear about WP:FRINGESUBJECTS and WP:YESPOV applies.
- @Bon courage, the proposed rewrite does not imply that anything is just an opinion, it literally says "This essay was criticized by the website Science-Based Medicine for containing errors and factual inaccuracies, with influenza responsible for one child death in the 2020/21 season, while public health mitigation of COVID-19 was in place – COVID-19 had, in contrast, killed more than 1,000." This does not say that the website was posting an opinion, but states that the website criticized it for factual inaccuracies. It has been "discussed to death" because the tone of this line does not read as neutral or disengaged. The number of people who have brought this up and complete unwillingness to compromise at all on the wording is ridiculous. This is a biography of a living person, "Criticism and praise should be included if they can be sourced to reliable secondary sources, so long as the material is presented responsibly, conservatively, and in a disinterested tone." This is far from a disinterested tone. Also, remember to sign your comments please. GeogSage 03:14, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
- Actually it was discussed to death principally because a disruptive editor wouldn't stop trying to change it. They've since been blocked. By personifying a website as criticising something for something, you make it seem like it's just the view of "the website". If misinformation is being aired (as it was about the supposed harmlessness of COVID) Misplaced Pages needs to make that context crystal clear. If (as you acknowledge) WP:SBM is a reliable source (i.e. for assertions of fact), why attribute it? This creates a POV problem per WP:YESPOV by making facts seem like opinions. You could just say "The essay contained errors and factual inaccuracies ..." to be neutral, no? Bon courage (talk) 03:41, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
- The disruptive editors in my opinion after reading the discussion were the ones refusing to change it, but that is besides the point. This wording doesn't look disinterested, and I think that it needs to be heavily reworded while maintaining the spirit of the text. I think this can help to avoid future heated discussions and reflect that there has been a lot of dispute here.
- The wording on the second sentence I proposed can be improved to avoid "personifying" the website, you're right. Would something like "A publication in Science-Based Medicine criticized Kulldorff's essay for containing errors and factual inaccuracies, pointing out that influenza was responsible for one child death in the 2020/21 season, while public health mitigation of COVID-19 was in place – COVID-19 had, in contrast, killed more than 1,000."
- Because this is controversial, I would prefer to put the full responsibility for stating this is factually inaccurate onto the source to avoid the perception that it is Misplaced Pages editors taking a stance on this, which is what the current sentence looks like. Clearly stating Science-Based Medicine in the second stance is also consistent with stating the essay was published for the Brownstone Institute. This is an approach I take in my professional research as well, I make sure to document exactly where my data and arguments are coming from to shift the discussion away from a debate about my opinion to what the sources say. My format is something like:
- Source 1 said (a thing). Source 2 (agree/disagree), reasoning. Source 3 (agree/disagree), reasoning. etc."
- For example, something like "Somebody published an essay that the world is flat and that we should not sail to close to the edge to avoid falling off.(citation1) All of science disagrees because science.(citation2)"
- Saying "Somebody published an error-laden essay that falsely claimed the Earth is flat, and illogically argued we should not sail to close to the edge to avoid falling off" does not appear as neutral or disinterested.
- I believe it is clear that the text here needs a tone revision, as it clearly reads in a way that strikes some editors the wrong way. GeogSage 04:43, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
- The principle problem with your proposal is that it is POV. For this encyclopedia we are required to state facts in wikivoice to be neutral, per WP:YESPOV, and NPOV is not negotiable. You say "because this is controversial" we need to do otherwise, but it's not "controversial" that Kuldorff was simply wrong (unless you can produce RS to that effect). Ancillary problems with the proposal are the personification of the "website" (if it were to be attributed, it would be to J Howard), the unfortunate shift to the passive voice, and the slightly shonky "criticised for ..." / " ... with ..." / " ... while ..." syntax. In short, what we have is fine. Bon courage (talk) 04:56, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
- We have sources saying he is factually wrong, and that needs to be clearly and unambiguously reflected in a disinterested and neutral tone. The Howard article, while from a reliable source, has a bit of a hostile tone (reflected in Howards other publications discussing Kuldorff). While this tone may or may not be warranted, it should be toned down in a biography of a living person. Another suggested revision to sentence 2:
- "Jonathon Howard published a response to Kulldorff's essay in Science-Based Medicine, pointing out Kulldorff's essay contained errors and factual inaccuracies, specifically noting that influenza was responsible for one child death in the 2020/21 season, while public health mitigation of COVID-19 were in place – COVID-19 had, in contrast, killed more than 1,000."
- This links Jonathon Howards page to the opinion directly, as well as the publication. Science arguments are scary and get really heated. They usually don't enter the realm of pop-science and general news coverage though. This approach, the objective dry statement of fact that Kulldorff published something, followed by a sentence that details a sources response to it, using as neutral and disinterested of a tone as possible, would maintain the content of the paragraph while making it appear less inflammatory to a reader. GeogSage 05:27, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
- This is not a "science argument", it's a case where we must simply state the well-sourced factual reality (not "opinion"). Your new proposal does not avoid the WP:YESPOV problem, introduces new MOS:SAY problems ("noted", "pointed out") and links the wrong Howard. There is no need to dance around; just relay the knowledge and move on. Bon courage (talk) 06:30, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
- You're right, this is not a "science" argument. It is a case of stating what we must factually, in a neutral, disinterested, conservative tone. The current entry does not sound encyclopedic, it sounds like an opinion piece in a news article. The first statement is just "they said a thing," and then we follow that with what sources say about that thing they said. We don't say "they falsely said a thing and illogically thought something based on their error-laden statement." Others may in the future disagree that the claim is "false," "illogical," or "error-ridden," but that doesn't change that they said it, or what a source claimed about it. If in the future another source comes up, it is as easy as adding another sentence. GeogSage 17:33, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
- Attributing the facts makes the paragraph sound like debating expert opinions, which must be avoided. That isn't a neutral tone, that is giving equal validity to a fringe position. When a fringe claim is false, Misplaced Pages should say so - not try to avoid taking a stand. MrOllie (talk) 13:05, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
- Taking a stand is not a neutral point of view, and this text on biographies of a living person is using non-encyclopedic tone and looks like an attack page. I am not the first one to say this, but any attempts to resolve this have been blocked by the same few editors. As I said earlier, saying "Somebody published an error-laden essay that falsely claimed the Earth is flat, and illogically argued we should not sail to close to the edge to avoid falling off" does not appear as neutral or disinterested. The same is true here. Attributing the fact, that Kulldorff published an essay, followed by an expert rebuttal of that essay, is not giving "equal validity" to a fringe position, it is just reflecting reality. The current text does not just look like Misplaced Pages is taking a stand, it looks like a poorly written attack page at first glance, which is why so many people have already taken issue with the wording here. GeogSage 15:31, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
- I just don't understand this line of argument. This is not a matter where one can legitimately "take a stand" unless it's allowed that maybe Kulldorff was right (WP:PROFRINGE). We just say what is the case. If it's a fact that Kulldorff was wrong, then per WP:YESPOV simply say so. Why can we ignore WP:YESPOV? Bon courage (talk) 15:36, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
- In the case that someone claimed the Earth is flat, we would indeed say they 'falsely' claimed that. It would not be a violation of neutrality to do so. What we absolutely would not do is follow the sentence with something like 'NASA has criticized the essay because the Earth is round'. We don't present mainstream science as another opinion. MrOllie (talk) 15:52, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
- While the flat Earth sentence might be extreme, the language used here is still inappropriate as it is not encyclopedic. The topic of this page isn't the content the subject has written about, but the living person. "<Subject of article> published a controversial article claiming Earth is flat in a flat Earth Newsletter. Somebody at NASA pointed out that the article contained errors and factual inaccuracies, specifically that it ignored thousands of years of science and had no evidence" is a perfectly accurate statement. Even the source used in this particular case starts with the sentence "Dr. Martin Kulldorff, one of the authors of the Great Barrington Declaration (GBD), recently penned an article for his new employer, the right-wing think tank the Brownstone Institute titled “Vaccines Save Lives“." By using overly harsh language, especially in a sentence that appears to be in Misplaced Pages's voice, you do more damage then you prevent by making conspiracy theorists think you are not approaching it neutrally. What I'm proposing is a more "cautious," "dispassionate," "conservative," and "disinterested" approach to the topic.
- From Misplaced Pages:Biographies of living persons:
- Tone
- "BLPs should be written responsibly, cautiously, and in a dispassionate tone, avoiding both understatement and overstatement. Articles should document in a non-partisan manner what reliable secondary sources have published about the subjects, and in some circumstances what the subjects have published about themselves. Summarize how actions and achievements are characterized by reliable sources without giving undue weight to recent events. Do not label people with contentious labels, loaded language, or terms that lack precision, unless a person is commonly described that way in reliable sources. Instead use clear, direct language and let facts alone do the talking."
- Balance
- "Criticism and praise should be included if they can be sourced to reliable secondary sources, so long as the material is presented responsibly, conservatively, and in a disinterested tone. Do not give disproportionate space to particular viewpoints; the views of small minorities should not be included at all. Care must be taken with article structure to ensure the overall presentation and section headings are broadly neutral. Beware of claims that rely on guilt by association, and biased, malicious or overly promotional content."
- Again, this exact sentence has come up repeatedly by editors as sounding problematic, and despite this, the same few editors have refused to even prepose an alternative wording that could satisfy all parties while maintaining the objective content, instead declaring consensus and stonewalling for the status quo. GeogSage 16:53, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
- You could always post to WP:FTN if you want (even) more eyes on the question of how to handle WP:FRINGE claims. Bon courage (talk) 16:58, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
- I posted it to Misplaced Pages:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard#Additional eyes needed on contentious article Martin Kulldorff a few days ago but haven't received interest yet. In this case, the fact Kulldorff published something is not in itself "fringe," it's the content of the source. This is a biography of a living person, and a contentious article, so must be held to very strict content policy.
- The Misplaced Pages:Fringe theories#Treatment of living persons page stated:
- "Close attention should be paid to the treatment of those who hold fringe viewpoints, since as a rule they are the focus of controversy. All articles concerning these people must also comply with Misplaced Pages's policy on biographies of living persons (WP:BLP). Fringe views of those better known for other achievements or incidents should not be given undue prominence, especially when these views are incidental to their fame. However, the WP:BLP policy does not provide an excuse to remove all criticism from a biography or to obscure the nature of a person's fringe advocacy outside of their field of expertise (see WP:PROFRINGE, WP:PSCI, WP:BLP § Balance)."
- I'm arguing that this sentence violates WP:BLP tone, as have others, so I thought that would get priority. I'll post this discussion there as well though. I should note that based on WP:BLP guidelines:
- "When material about living persons has been deleted on good-faith BLP objections, any editor wishing to add, restore, or undelete it must ensure it complies with Misplaced Pages's content policies. If it is to be restored without significant change, consensus must be obtained first. Material that has been repaired to address concerns should be judged on a case-by-case basis."
- Good faith objections have been raised, by myself and others. It has been restored, repeatedly both here and in previous discussions, without significant change to the status quo ante bellum before consensus was obtained first. The fact this has come up so much to me indicates that it is not just me who finds the tone less then adequate, and that compromise can likely be reached to improve how this content is written. For example, we can maintain the content of this while also not presenting three separate descriptions of the work as "error-laden," "falsely claimed," or "illogically argued." Especially when it is only one source cited to back those assertions, and the sentence in question is not clearly citing that source.
- (To get ahead of any COI finger pointing, I don't agree with Martin Kulldorff on this, and I have never met him. I didn't even know about him before starting the article for SaTScan. From my personal experience, being highly critical of this kind of content only reinforces conspiratorial thinking, which is largely why I want to avoid using language that can and has been perceived as less then neutral in tone.) GeogSage 18:31, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
- The matter is not biographical, but applies to a factual claim made in the realm of biomedicine. Scientific claims do not "inherit" the BLP protection accorded to the person who uttered them, and to claim otherwise if WP:CRYBLP. We have a reliable source countering a fringe view; we say what it says. Job done. Bon courage (talk) 18:45, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
- This page is biographical, and to say otherwise is ridiculous. The first line of the source states: "Dr. Martin Kulldorff, one of the authors of the Great Barrington Declaration (GBD), recently penned an article for his new employer, the right-wing think tank the Brownstone Institute titled “Vaccines Save Lives." It then discusses the content of the publication. This is exactly the format I'm suggesting, following the reliable source used here: Statement of fact that an article exists in one sentence, followed by another on the factual accuracy and content. This has come up repeatedly by multiple editors, and could be reworded in respect of the good faith criticisms of tone and apparent neutrality while maintaining the same exact content. I honestly don't understand the strong resistance to what could be an easy compromise and insistence on the status quo ante bellum despite this being brought up multiple times. The resistance to change and lack of any compromised revision to the text really feels like Misplaced Pages:Status quo stonewalling. GeogSage 18:57, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
- That's just a personal attack. You've been given precise policy based rationales wrt WP:NPOV which you have completely failed to engage with, instead flailing around with poorly-worded and outright incorrect proposals. Time to ignore. Bon courage (talk) 19:20, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
- It is not a personal attack, it is an observed pattern of behavior after reading this talk page and seeing what appears to be a refusal to compromise on tone/wording of a single sentence after multiple editors have expressed concern. I have attempted to engage with your arguments, you did not like my response. You have failed to even offer a compromise alternative text of your own that addresses concerns. You have been given precise policy based rationales that you have completely failed to engage with. Looking at this talk page, it looks increasingly like a textbook example of Misplaced Pages:POV railroad, complete with threats to ban users (pointing to other users who have been "blocked indefinitely" for disagreeing with this), and bait like this replies "time to ignore" line. This behavior "gives Misplaced Pages an undesirable reputation as a place where aggression and gaming the system are permitted, valued and rewarded." GeogSage 03:03, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
- No. Ridiculous is the GBD. The above reasoning sounds WP:CPP to whitewash the dangerous flawed and rejected claims promoted by right-wing think-tanks and their footmen. Ixocactus (talk) 20:09, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
- Okay, lets change things up. I don't agree with Kulldorff at all personally, but in good faith thought this legitimately violated tone and neutrality policy. In the case that we are trying to avoid whitewashing stuff, the current text is not clear enough, and definitly not in line with the citations tone. How about the following:
- "In December 2021, the contrarian Kulldorff, anchored to his ideas put forward in the GBD, decided to "spread disinformation" with ridiculous, error-ridden, "anti-vaccine hogwash," for the right wing think-tank Brownstone Institute, in which he tried "to trick their readers with word games" by falsely putting forth "absurd comparisons" and a "blatant lie" that influenza was more hazardous to children than COVID-19. On that basis, he illogically argued using "rhetorical sleight of hand tricks", that children should not receive COVID-19 vaccinations. Upon reviewing this text, one publications said "No semi-rational author could include all the relevant facts and still conclude that it’s a bad idea to vaccinate children" and speculated that Kulldorff knows this but believes it would undermine the GBD. In summary this publication stated "How sad.""
- I honestly don't like Kulldorffs stance, but as a researcher and teacher would have marked an undergraduate paper off for this kind of unscholarly wording. If Misplaced Pages is really a place where we want to avoid whitewashing stuff, then the current text is no where near extreme enough. Above I have added some highlight quotes from the reliable source cited in the article to drive the point home. Either the current texts tone is too strong, or not strong enough, but it must be changed. GeogSage 02:40, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
- See Fallacy of the excluded middle and WP:POINT. Bon courage (talk) 02:49, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
- Misplaced Pages:Do not disrupt Misplaced Pages to illustrate a point:
- "A commonly used shortcut to this page is WP:POINT. However, just because someone is making a point does not mean that they are disrupting Misplaced Pages to illustrate that point. As a rule, editors engaging in "POINTy" behavior are making edits with which they do not actually agree, for the deliberate purpose of drawing attention and provoking opposition in the hopes of making other editors see their "point". Merely describing such hypothetical behavior is fine and does not go against this guideline. For example, saying By that standard, we ought to remove all the cited sources on this page is okay, but actually doing that just to make a point is not."
- I did not disrupt Wikipeida. This is the talk page, and I was making a point and saying "By that standard" we ought to really drive the point home and avoid whitewashing this. Please refrain from Wikilawyering when you're supposed to be ignoring me. False accusations are the lamest form of wikibullying, and technically constitute a personal attack. GeogSage 03:13, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
- It is not appropriate to include quotations from any source in such a way that they are given the weight of wikivoice. I believe this should be obvious to all editors, so I conclude that Geog is making a straw goat argument here.
- And re: the prior statement,
This page is biographical
- yes, but that does not mean that all content in the article is sensitive WP:BLP content. That Lund is in Sweden is not BLP content, and that Covid-19 was more dangerous to children than the flu is also not BLP content. Newimpartial (talk) 03:43, 29 March 2024 (UTC)- Indeed. There was even once an RfC to test the idea that BLP extended to person's (fringe) views. TL;DR – it doesn't. Bon courage (talk) 03:50, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
- I was making a point. The tone of the text in Wikivoice is not neutral or disinterested. This is why it has come up repeatedly on this talk page. While I agree it is important to avoid whitewashing misinformation, my concern is that by using to many loaded words in a sentence without a citation we don't appear neutral or disinterested. Even if my proposed text is not what we go with, I request some sort of rewording on that sentence.
- For example: "Kulldorff published an essay titled "Vaccines save lives" for the Brownstone Institute, a right-wing think tank, that has been criticized for factual inaccuracies. Jonathan Howard published a critical response to this in Science-Based Medicine, detailing errors and factual inaccuracies, such as pointing out that while influenza was responsible for one child death in the 2020/21 season while public health mitigation of COVID-19 was in place – COVID-19 had, in contrast, killed more than 1,000."
- The overall content is great, no complaint. Our delivery does not read as encyclopedic and that is why this keeps coming up by editors. If you change the topic to something less controversial, would this sentence be in a tone that is acceptable in Wikivoice? Cause it really doesn't sound like it to me.
- I'm looking for some level of back and forth compromise to make a better entry, there is always room for improvement in text. Multiple editors have over time expressed various levels of dissatisfaction with this wording. Currently it feels like there is stubborn resistance to any change for reasons that I'm struggling to understand (as a professional in GIS and public health research that is highly against disinformation and not in agreement with Kulldorff on this). Personally I think the current wording does more harm then good by making it look like Misplaced Pages is not neutral on this, which only reinforces conspiracy theorists. GeogSage 04:14, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
- See Fallacy of the excluded middle and WP:POINT. Bon courage (talk) 02:49, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
- That's just a personal attack. You've been given precise policy based rationales wrt WP:NPOV which you have completely failed to engage with, instead flailing around with poorly-worded and outright incorrect proposals. Time to ignore. Bon courage (talk) 19:20, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
- This page is biographical, and to say otherwise is ridiculous. The first line of the source states: "Dr. Martin Kulldorff, one of the authors of the Great Barrington Declaration (GBD), recently penned an article for his new employer, the right-wing think tank the Brownstone Institute titled “Vaccines Save Lives." It then discusses the content of the publication. This is exactly the format I'm suggesting, following the reliable source used here: Statement of fact that an article exists in one sentence, followed by another on the factual accuracy and content. This has come up repeatedly by multiple editors, and could be reworded in respect of the good faith criticisms of tone and apparent neutrality while maintaining the same exact content. I honestly don't understand the strong resistance to what could be an easy compromise and insistence on the status quo ante bellum despite this being brought up multiple times. The resistance to change and lack of any compromised revision to the text really feels like Misplaced Pages:Status quo stonewalling. GeogSage 18:57, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
- The matter is not biographical, but applies to a factual claim made in the realm of biomedicine. Scientific claims do not "inherit" the BLP protection accorded to the person who uttered them, and to claim otherwise if WP:CRYBLP. We have a reliable source countering a fringe view; we say what it says. Job done. Bon courage (talk) 18:45, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
- You could always post to WP:FTN if you want (even) more eyes on the question of how to handle WP:FRINGE claims. Bon courage (talk) 16:58, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
- Taking a stand is not a neutral point of view, and this text on biographies of a living person is using non-encyclopedic tone and looks like an attack page. I am not the first one to say this, but any attempts to resolve this have been blocked by the same few editors. As I said earlier, saying "Somebody published an error-laden essay that falsely claimed the Earth is flat, and illogically argued we should not sail to close to the edge to avoid falling off" does not appear as neutral or disinterested. The same is true here. Attributing the fact, that Kulldorff published an essay, followed by an expert rebuttal of that essay, is not giving "equal validity" to a fringe position, it is just reflecting reality. The current text does not just look like Misplaced Pages is taking a stand, it looks like a poorly written attack page at first glance, which is why so many people have already taken issue with the wording here. GeogSage 15:31, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
- Attributing the facts makes the paragraph sound like debating expert opinions, which must be avoided. That isn't a neutral tone, that is giving equal validity to a fringe position. When a fringe claim is false, Misplaced Pages should say so - not try to avoid taking a stand. MrOllie (talk) 13:05, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
- You're right, this is not a "science" argument. It is a case of stating what we must factually, in a neutral, disinterested, conservative tone. The current entry does not sound encyclopedic, it sounds like an opinion piece in a news article. The first statement is just "they said a thing," and then we follow that with what sources say about that thing they said. We don't say "they falsely said a thing and illogically thought something based on their error-laden statement." Others may in the future disagree that the claim is "false," "illogical," or "error-ridden," but that doesn't change that they said it, or what a source claimed about it. If in the future another source comes up, it is as easy as adding another sentence. GeogSage 17:33, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
- This is not a "science argument", it's a case where we must simply state the well-sourced factual reality (not "opinion"). Your new proposal does not avoid the WP:YESPOV problem, introduces new MOS:SAY problems ("noted", "pointed out") and links the wrong Howard. There is no need to dance around; just relay the knowledge and move on. Bon courage (talk) 06:30, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
- The principle problem with your proposal is that it is POV. For this encyclopedia we are required to state facts in wikivoice to be neutral, per WP:YESPOV, and NPOV is not negotiable. You say "because this is controversial" we need to do otherwise, but it's not "controversial" that Kuldorff was simply wrong (unless you can produce RS to that effect). Ancillary problems with the proposal are the personification of the "website" (if it were to be attributed, it would be to J Howard), the unfortunate shift to the passive voice, and the slightly shonky "criticised for ..." / " ... with ..." / " ... while ..." syntax. In short, what we have is fine. Bon courage (talk) 04:56, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
- Actually it was discussed to death principally because a disruptive editor wouldn't stop trying to change it. They've since been blocked. By personifying a website as criticising something for something, you make it seem like it's just the view of "the website". If misinformation is being aired (as it was about the supposed harmlessness of COVID) Misplaced Pages needs to make that context crystal clear. If (as you acknowledge) WP:SBM is a reliable source (i.e. for assertions of fact), why attribute it? This creates a POV problem per WP:YESPOV by making facts seem like opinions. You could just say "The essay contained errors and factual inaccuracies ..." to be neutral, no? Bon courage (talk) 03:41, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
- @Bon courage, the proposed rewrite does not imply that anything is just an opinion, it literally says "This essay was criticized by the website Science-Based Medicine for containing errors and factual inaccuracies, with influenza responsible for one child death in the 2020/21 season, while public health mitigation of COVID-19 was in place – COVID-19 had, in contrast, killed more than 1,000." This does not say that the website was posting an opinion, but states that the website criticized it for factual inaccuracies. It has been "discussed to death" because the tone of this line does not read as neutral or disengaged. The number of people who have brought this up and complete unwillingness to compromise at all on the wording is ridiculous. This is a biography of a living person, "Criticism and praise should be included if they can be sourced to reliable secondary sources, so long as the material is presented responsibly, conservatively, and in a disinterested tone." This is far from a disinterested tone. Also, remember to sign your comments please. GeogSage 03:14, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
- "Tone" and "neutrality" are the go-to vocabulary of users who want to portray Kulldorff's views as having more merit than they actually do. If you want to address style questions, you should avoid those words in fringe article talk pages because if you use them, you paint yourself as a fringe POV pusher. You could argue that "error-laden", "falsely" and "illogically" are too much and bad style, without adding the dogwhistle words. Well, arguing against vaccination against one disease because another disease is more dangerous is indeed illogical in itself, and if the other disease is actually far less dangerous, that makes the total quality of his reasoning abysmally bad. It is creationist-level reality denial. At least two of the negative qualifiers are needed.
- Attributing statements to SBM instead of putting it in Wikivoice would be acceptable if there were serious people who contradict the influenza and COVID death numbers. --Hob Gadling (talk) 05:27, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you. I don't know how much you read of the text wall, but I'm not a supporter of his views (I use some software he wrote in my research, when I wrote the Misplaced Pages page for it and came to his article to tag it was actually the first I learned of the controversy.) I apologize if I used incorrect language to describe the issue, I thought I was referencing specific Misplaced Pages policy, didn't mean to dog whistle.
- The qualifiers can be moved to a second sentence and attributed clearly to the source while still allowing for a neutral statement that the publication exists. We could even move the description of the content within the essay to a separate, cited, sentence with qualifiers. We could even avoid repeating the misleading material entirely. For example:
- "In December 2021 Kulldorff published an essay for the Brownstone Institute, a right-wing think tank, titled "Vaccines save lives." Jonathan Howard published a critical response to this in Science-Based Medicine, noting that despite it sounding like an article he might agree with based on the title, the essay is not in line with medical consensus. Howard detailed factual errors, omissions, and logical flaws in this article, stating that this essay "mostly argued against vaccinating children.""
- Not a perfect block of text, but it is better "style" in my opinion, and avoids repeating any of the specific misinformation while giving the reader context. Working on bigfoot I noticed that strong language will either be preaching to the choir, or give the conspiracy theorists ammunition (I fought to keep the words "dubious evidence" in a sentence, but listed multiple sources to do so). Working to make the block appear as objective as possible while presenting the counter arguments in a clear, disinterested tone might do more to lower the temperature around fringe topics then strong qualifiers.
- If you have any proposed re-wordings based on anything I've written, or your own ideas, I'd love to see them. Based on this talk page, I think it is clear I'm not the only person who doesn't like the style of this text. GeogSage 06:21, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
- GeogSage, unless you believe the whole section's tone is non-neutral, and not just the two sentences, then perhaps you could switch the section neutrality template you added to to an in-text tag? Llll5032 (talk) 07:09, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
- It seems, Geog, that you may be unfamiliar with the distinction used on enwiki between neutrality and false neutrality. Neutrality in language is required when multiple perspectives carry similar epistemological status (some critics laud an artist's work and others are withering, in a classic example).
- False neutrality occurs when an article presents a fact as an opinion: "X stated in his article that cryptids are real; this was disputed in another article by Y". The latter doesn't really respect what the facts are (in "our" speech community and episteme, it is "a fact" that cryptids do not exist).
- The language you have been proposing for the paragraph in question seems to others to represent false balance, since it presents the essay Kuldorff wrote for Brownstone as though it was equally grounded in fact as the statements made criticizing it. This appearance violates what "our" episteme holds to be true, and therefore violates enwiki policy. Newimpartial (talk) 11:08, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
- Changed the tag to an inline tag for "tone." The issue is style and wording more then anything, this is not encyclopedic or scholarly. Ideally, the source used here would be a bit less "passionate" about the topic, or that we had one or two more backing it up, but it is a factually accurate reliable source so not going to argue that.
- On crptids, the best example I've seen for them is Bigfoot#Documented_hoaxes. One passage from the bigfoot page:
- "The most well-known video of an alleged Bigfoot, the Patterson-Gimlin film, was recorded on October 20, 1967, by Roger Patterson and Robert "Bob" Gimlin in an area called Bluff Creek in Northern California. The 59.5-second-long video has become an iconic piece of Bigfoot lore, and continues to be a highly scrutinized, analyzed, and debated subject. Academic experts from related fields have typically judged the film as providing no supportive data of any scientific value, with perhaps the most common proposed explanation being that it was a hoax."
- Basically formatted:
- "X published an article that cryptids are real. Y reviewed the evidence presented, and stated it was factually inaccurate, pointing out omissions, fallacies, and logical flaws. This is in line with the scientific consensus that cryptids are not real."
- The source that we are basing this paragraph on opens with the line "Dr. Martin Kulldorff, one of the authors of the Great Barrington Declaration (GBD), recently penned an article for his new employer, the right-wing think tank the Brownstone Institute titled “Vaccines Save Lives“." This is a statement of fact, the article existed. It then goes on to detail issues with the article. We do not need to say that the article is error-laden, illogical, or containing omissions because we are just reporting what sources say. I don't know how the second two lines I preposed in the last text block ("Jonathan Howard published a critical response to this in Science-Based Medicine, noting that despite it sounding like an article he might agree with based on the title, the essay is not in line with medical consensus. Howard detailed factual errors, omissions, and logical flaws in this article, stating that this essay "mostly argued against vaccinating children.") make anything about Kulldorff's article look grounded in fact. The rest of the section is more or less what I'm describing here. For example:
- "His efforts resulted in the Great Barrington Declaration, an open letter co-authored with Oxford’s Sunetra Gupta and Stanford’s Jay Bhattacharya for the AIER. The document stated that lower-risk groups would develop herd immunity through infection while vulnerable groups should be protected from the virus. The World Health Organization, the National Institutes of Health and other public-health bodies said such a policy lacked a sound scientific basis."
- Rewording this along the same logic as the text I'm disputing would result in something like:
- "His efforts resulted in the error-laden Great Barrington Declaration, an open letter co-authored with Oxford’s Sunetra Gupta and Stanford’s Jay Bhattacharya for the AIER, a conservative libertarian think tank known for spreading climate and health misinformation. The document illogically argued that lower-risk groups would develop herd immunity through infection while vulnerable groups should be protected from the virus based on false information and ommissions. The World Health Organization, the National Institutes of Health and other public-health bodies said such a policy lacked a sound scientific basis."
- I think the first text is better and less likely to cause accusations of bias. The tone is more scholarly, while maintaining an accurate, grounded, disinterested reflection of what the sources say. GeogSage 17:06, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
- Note that this has been forum shopped to WP:BLPN again. Bon courage (talk) 08:05, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
References
- ^ Howard J (23 December 2021). "I Disagree With an Article Called 'Vaccines Save Lives'". Science-Based Medicine.
Balancing Contentious Claims
In December 2021, Kulldorff published an essay for the Brownstone Institute in which he argued against children receiving vaccination against COVID-19, falsely claiming that influenza was a greater risk to children than COVID-19. In a critical response published in Science-Based Medicine, Jonathan Howard noted errors and factual inaccuracies in Kulldorff's essay, pointing out that while influenza was responsible for only one child death in the 2020/21 season – while public health mitigation of COVID-19 was in place – COVID-19 killed more than 1,000. In addition to this, Kulldorff's essay omitted that children who are infected with COVID-19 are at risk for rare but serious conditions, such as MIS-C, with 8,862 confirmed cases of children with MIS-C by March of 2023.
This paragraph lacks a dispassionate tone and makes a contentious allegation that Kulldorff made false claims without adequate inline citation. This has been brought up by multiple editors, multiple times and is based on a single, biased source (see other posts on Jonathan Howard's opinion page). I propose the changes below, including a new citation to the CDC, which has finally acknowledged that "overall, flu seems to cause more severe illness in young children than COVID-19." https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/flu-vs-covid19.html
In December 2021, Kulldorff published an essay for the Brownstone Institute in which he argued against children receiving vaccination against COVID-19 and claimed that influenza was a greater risk to children than COVID-19. In a critical response published in Science-Based Medicine, Jonathan Howard argued Kulldorff's essay contained errors and factual inaccuracies, pointing out that while influenza was responsible for only one child death in the 2020/21 season – while public health mitigation of COVID-19 was in place – COVID-19 killed more than 1,000. In addition to this, Kulldorff's essay omitted that children who are infected with COVID-19 are at risk for rare but serious conditions, such as MIS-C, with 8,862 confirmed cases of children with MIS-C by March of 2023. The flu seems to cause more severe illness in young children than COVID-19 overall, according to the CDC in 2024. Tikitorch2 (talk) 02:15, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
- Your concerns were heard in the section right up the page, 'Neutrality and tone on disputed section "Views on COVID-19"' you did not get consensus at that time to change the article, and I see nothing has changed since then. Your 'new citation' cannot be used here without resorting to improper WP:SYNTHESIS. MrOllie (talk) 02:29, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
- The existing paragraph already synthesizes extensively, both with regard to MIS-C and in repeating selected details from Howard's flawed analysis but not others, such as 1090 child deaths during the influenza pandemic compared to 527 from covid in 2021. Should we strip all of that out? My main concern is that Misplaced Pages should not editorialize on one side of this contentious issue--especially given the new CDC information. In the 2023-2024 season more children were hospitalized with the flu than Covid-19, despite higher vaccination rates.https://www.cdc.gov/resp-net/dashboard/index.html Tikitorch2 (talk) 03:15, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
- Repeating things from a source that is actually on point and directly discussing Kuldorff's work is clearly not synthesis (nor is it editorializing) so there is no need to strip anything out. Attempting to add new information by interpreting datasets yourself, though, is synthesis. Exactly that has been discussed at length on this talk page before, feel free to read those discussions in the archives. MrOllie (talk) 03:22, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
- In December 2021, Kulldorff published an essay for the Brownstone Institute in which he argued against children receiving vaccination against COVID-19, claiming that influenza was a greater risk to children than COVID-19. In a critical response published in Science-Based Medicine, Jonathan Howard claimed errors and factual inaccuracies in Kulldorff's essay, pointing out that COVID-19’s pediatric death toll would soon--one year into the pandemic--surpass the 1,090 during the H1N1 influenza pandemic. In addition to this, Kulldorff's essay omitted that children who are infected with COVID-19 are at risk for rare but serious conditions, such as MIS-C, from which 52 children had died. Tikitorch2 (talk) 03:34, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
- We've also spent a lot of time on this talk page discussing how presenting this as two competing opinions is WP:FALSEBALANCE, and that is not something permitted by policy here. MrOllie (talk) 03:38, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
- The CDC says that overall, flu seems to cause more severe illness in young children than COVID-19. Tikitorch2 (talk) 03:47, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
- You'd need a secondary source to explicitly relate that to Kulldorff's essay, if only because the secondary source would correctly state that using stats about severity in a vaccinated population doesn't really justify claims that we shouldn't vaccinate people. MrOllie (talk) 03:50, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
- No that is not needed--I want to remove the word "falsely" because it is not true, or contentious at best and is a red flag. We don't have to add the source to remove our own editorialization. Tikitorch2 (talk) 03:55, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
- Nah, it's the mainstream scientific opinion, and we need to keep that right where it is to avoid WP:PROFRINGE issues. It is not remotely 'editorialization'. MrOllie (talk) 04:02, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
- A bold claim when, according to the CDC, overall the flu seems to cause more severe illness in young children than COVID-19.https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/flu-vs-covid19.html This is also reflected in child vaccination rates, which is about 42% updated for flu and 10% updated for Covid. https://www.cdc.gov/respiratory-viruses/data/vaccination-trends.html. Tikitorch2 (talk) 04:20, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
- Nah, it's the mainstream scientific opinion, and we need to keep that right where it is to avoid WP:PROFRINGE issues. It is not remotely 'editorialization'. MrOllie (talk) 04:02, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
- No that is not needed--I want to remove the word "falsely" because it is not true, or contentious at best and is a red flag. We don't have to add the source to remove our own editorialization. Tikitorch2 (talk) 03:55, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
- Yeah, after three years of vaccinating children against COVID-19. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 03:51, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
- Are you familiar with the relative vaccination rates for children? Tikitorch2 (talk) 03:56, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
- It does not matter. What matters is that you are trying to use the current situation (with COVID being not as dangerous as before) as a reason go gainsay what Howard said back then. The CDC sources you linked do not mention Kulldorff and are therefore not useable in this article. You need a competent person saying that Kulldorff had a point back then. Your own conclusions (or insinuations) are not allowed because of WP:OR.
- This is like arguing that quarantines against the Black Death in Italy in 1348 were wrong because nobody is dying of the Black Death now.
- 1000 is still bigger than 1. --Hob Gadling (talk) 08:49, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
- Covid was always comparable or lower risk to children than the average year flu. Even in 2020 the child death rate from Covid was comparable to the typical flu death rate among unvaccinated children. That a lockdown reduced flu deaths one year is completely irrelevant to Kulldorff’s claim because the flu is a risk of average daily life, like driving a car. We don’t lockdown because of the flu risk, it is a persistent risk we live with. It was always a straw man by Howard to attack Kulldorff with a special case flu risk, but it has aged even worse. Now we have two years of data showing that Kulldorff was probably correct that the flu has more risk for children than Covid. To the point now the Misplaced Pages editorialization contradicts even the CDC. We dont need a Misplaced Pages-acceptable secondary source to remove editorial comments that are against policy and contradict the CDC. Tikitorch2 (talk) 14:41, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
- I repeat: If you want to add sources to the Kulldorff article, the source needs to mention Kulldorff. That is the minimum requirement. Your theories about flu and COVID do not belong in the article. Publish them in a scientific journal, then we can use them. Until then, bye. --Hob Gadling (talk) 15:09, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
- Covid was always comparable or lower risk to children than the average year flu. Even in 2020 the child death rate from Covid was comparable to the typical flu death rate among unvaccinated children. That a lockdown reduced flu deaths one year is completely irrelevant to Kulldorff’s claim because the flu is a risk of average daily life, like driving a car. We don’t lockdown because of the flu risk, it is a persistent risk we live with. It was always a straw man by Howard to attack Kulldorff with a special case flu risk, but it has aged even worse. Now we have two years of data showing that Kulldorff was probably correct that the flu has more risk for children than Covid. To the point now the Misplaced Pages editorialization contradicts even the CDC. We dont need a Misplaced Pages-acceptable secondary source to remove editorial comments that are against policy and contradict the CDC. Tikitorch2 (talk) 14:41, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
- Are you familiar with the relative vaccination rates for children? Tikitorch2 (talk) 03:56, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
- You'd need a secondary source to explicitly relate that to Kulldorff's essay, if only because the secondary source would correctly state that using stats about severity in a vaccinated population doesn't really justify claims that we shouldn't vaccinate people. MrOllie (talk) 03:50, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
- The CDC says that overall, flu seems to cause more severe illness in young children than COVID-19. Tikitorch2 (talk) 03:47, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
- We've also spent a lot of time on this talk page discussing how presenting this as two competing opinions is WP:FALSEBALANCE, and that is not something permitted by policy here. MrOllie (talk) 03:38, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
- In December 2021, Kulldorff published an essay for the Brownstone Institute in which he argued against children receiving vaccination against COVID-19, claiming that influenza was a greater risk to children than COVID-19. In a critical response published in Science-Based Medicine, Jonathan Howard claimed errors and factual inaccuracies in Kulldorff's essay, pointing out that COVID-19’s pediatric death toll would soon--one year into the pandemic--surpass the 1,090 during the H1N1 influenza pandemic. In addition to this, Kulldorff's essay omitted that children who are infected with COVID-19 are at risk for rare but serious conditions, such as MIS-C, from which 52 children had died. Tikitorch2 (talk) 03:34, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
- Repeating things from a source that is actually on point and directly discussing Kuldorff's work is clearly not synthesis (nor is it editorializing) so there is no need to strip anything out. Attempting to add new information by interpreting datasets yourself, though, is synthesis. Exactly that has been discussed at length on this talk page before, feel free to read those discussions in the archives. MrOllie (talk) 03:22, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
- The existing paragraph already synthesizes extensively, both with regard to MIS-C and in repeating selected details from Howard's flawed analysis but not others, such as 1090 child deaths during the influenza pandemic compared to 527 from covid in 2021. Should we strip all of that out? My main concern is that Misplaced Pages should not editorialize on one side of this contentious issue--especially given the new CDC information. In the 2023-2024 season more children were hospitalized with the flu than Covid-19, despite higher vaccination rates.https://www.cdc.gov/resp-net/dashboard/index.html Tikitorch2 (talk) 03:15, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
- The current text is the result of compromise and discussion. You could look into the discussion logs and see that I'm one of the editors that has brought up issues surrounding tone and neutrality, which is why I'm weighing in now. The text we have resulted from extensive discussion on this talk page at the BLP Noticeboard. That said, I see you were part of that discussion in June, so should already be aware of this. @User:Newimpartial did a good job of tempering out the harsh language we used previously while maintaining the content. The sources say what they say, and as long as we are clearly attributing the claims to the sources, I'm satisfied with the text as is, and I believe an adequate consensus was reached. Unless new sources are released that are extremely specific to this exact set of claims, I don't think we will be able to change much in the near or distant future. GeogSage 22:32, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
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