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Revision as of 19:46, 13 August 2023 editZ1720 (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Checkusers, Oversighters, Administrators29,179 edits FA concerns← Previous edit Latest revision as of 15:32, 22 December 2024 edit undoLowercase sigmabot III (talk | contribs)Bots, Template editors2,292,911 editsm Archiving 1 discussion(s) to Talk:Caspar David Friedrich/Archive 2) (bot 
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{{small|Above undated message substituted from ] by ] (]) 16:54, 16 January 2022 (UTC)}} {{small|Above undated message substituted from ] by ] (]) 16:54, 16 January 2022 (UTC)}}
== This article is not suitable for an education assignment ==

{{ping|Cacanuck}} Per your , this article appears to be ]. (I don't know what the "reviewing" column means.)

Please note that this article is a ], and has already been reviewed for comprehensiveness, good sourcing, and so on, in a process deeming it "one of wikipedia's best articles". I would discourage you from making changes to this article without discussing them on this talk page first. More importantly, there are ''many'' other artists whose biographies would benefit from review; those are much better candidates for an assignment. ] (]) 03:58, 5 April 2018 (UTC)
:Review normally just means review, but I agree this isn't a great choice. ] (]) 17:03, 5 April 2018 (UTC)

== book copied article ==

from "Delphi Classics" plagiarizes this article. I don't know if this is a legit publisher? Probably not. I think there's talk page template for this kind of thing. 02:38, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

== Ethnicity == == Ethnicity ==


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Is anyone interested in fixing up this article? Pinging {{ping|Ceoil|Outriggr|Modernist|Kafka Liz}} as the FA nominators who are still actively editing. ] (]) 19:46, 13 August 2023 (UTC) Is anyone interested in fixing up this article? Pinging {{ping|Ceoil|Outriggr|Modernist|Kafka Liz}} as the FA nominators who are still actively editing. ] (]) 19:46, 13 August 2023 (UTC)
:yes agree it needs a tuneup. ] (]) 01:12, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
::{{re|Ceoil}} Do you think you will work on this in the near future? I added it to ] but I have lots of articles on my list of FAR-ing so I don't want to bring an article to FAR if others want to work on it. I do not have the expertise to work on this. ] (]) 01:45, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
:::hi, yes would be pleased to return to this page, although will be travelling for a bit. ] (]) 15:39, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
::::No rush to get this done. ] (]) 15:44, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
:::::Thanks and phew! Z1720. I'm comfortable with this, and have made progress on the refs. Re "numerous sources that are not used", I'm fine that it doesn't indicate a gap in comprehensive; the article follows TOC wise the broad format of general surveys. Unused sources now moved to further reading. Have added a notes section, and am half way through converting harv to snf (tiresome work). Have removed a few uncited additions. Will ping when done overall and you can re-assess. Realistically, I'll ping you in a month. ] (]) 02:49, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
::::::A lot of progress made, so....<ahem> ] (]) 00:36, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
{{outdent}}{{re|Ceoil}} Sorry that I missed this note above! I see that lots of improvements have been made. Here are some additional comments to get this back to FA standards:

*Unreferenced passages needs citations. I added some cn tags, and others are outstanding.
*There are no post-2009 sources cited in the article. Is there recent scholarship on this person worth citing?
I'll do a deeper dive when the above are addressed. ] (]) 16:02, 21 October 2023 (UTC)
*:Ok....] (]) 23:27, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

==Infobox issues==
The infobox for this article was added in 2020 without discussion. It has remained now and is -in my opinion- a net negative to the article. So, I'd like to discuss it's utility and removal.
* The IB was never part of the FA process.
* His birthplace has an explanatory note in the text- that he was born on the Baltic coast of Germany in what was Swedish Pomerania. But the IB text lacks the nuance that at the time of his birth, it was still part of the Holy Roman Empire. Thus, saying he was born in Swedish Pomerania and forcing the reader to go to another page to figure out what it means is extra work. The note in the text explains better how and why that region changed hands. But it's also a little misleading and unclear.. it was ''technically'' ruled by the Swedish Empire but was part of the HRE, with Swedish princes ruling the rural areas. TLDR, it's too simplistic to simply refer to his birthplace as Swedish Pomerania in the IB.
* Nationality- German. Should be clear by the first sentence in the article that he 'was a German Romantic landscape painter..'. Also, was he Prussian or German? Pomeranian? His movement was German Romanticism but the German Confederation (replacement for the HRE) was an mix of ethnicities. This parameter is again not nuanced enough to describe him as 'German.'
* Known for 'Painting.' This is very obvious. Redundant.
* Notable work- this is a mess. Which of his works is notable? He was prolific and was surprised to read that the works I am most familiar with are not listed here. Is there a criteria, or did someone list the paintings they like best? I think this runs afoul of ], it should be what sources identify (as reflected in the test) as such. But I think they are too numerous to list accurately without being too much information for the reader.
* Movement- Romanticism. Okay.. but the text identifies German Romanticism in the lead.

Anyone have thoughts on these issues? ] (]) 16:04, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
:Completly agree and have removed the box. ] (]) 23:40, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 15:32, 22 December 2024

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Caspar David Friedrich article.
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This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Peer reviewers: Cacanuck.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 16:54, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Ethnicity

An editor has twice tried to change Friedrich from German to Swedish-German. I had initially warned him here against using deceptive edit summaries (a POV edit labeled as a "typo"). The discussion, as you can see, escalated quickly. My main point is that virtually all reliable sources label Friedrich as German. I won't list every source as there are literally thousands, but I will give you this one obscure compendium to consider: . As you can see, a "German painter" born in "Greifswald, Germany". I don't believe we need to belabour this further as this is a featured article and there has been no controversy around Friedrich's ethnicity before this. As we all know, we go by sources, not personal opinions. The sources unequivocally label Friedrich German. freshacconci (✉) 00:05, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

The situation might be similar to that of Francis Bacon (artist) ("Irish-born British" after lots of arguments) except that his place of birth, though Swedish-ruled, was definitely not considered part of Sweden, any more than eg Venice and Milan were considered part of Austria some time later. So he just needs to be reverted. Johnbod (talk) 01:14, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

WP:URFA/2020 review

I reviewed this article as part of WP:URFA/2020, an initiative to review English Misplaced Pages's oldest featured articles to ensure that they still meet the featured article criteria. I have some concerns about this article after a quick scan:

  • There are some unreferenced passages throughout the article,
  • The "Sources" section lists numerous sources that are not used as inline citations in the article, which makes me wonder if the article is comprehensive,
  • The references are disorganised, with some needing to be moved to a "Notes" section, a standardisation of how references are used, and some sources that might be able to be replaced with higher quality academic sources.

Is anyone interested in fixing up this article? Pinging @Ceoil, Outriggr, Modernist, and Kafka Liz: as the FA nominators who are still actively editing. Z1720 (talk) 19:46, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

yes agree it needs a tuneup. Ceoil (talk) 01:12, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
@Ceoil: Do you think you will work on this in the near future? I added it to WP:FARGIVEN but I have lots of articles on my list of FAR-ing so I don't want to bring an article to FAR if others want to work on it. I do not have the expertise to work on this. Z1720 (talk) 01:45, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
hi, yes would be pleased to return to this page, although will be travelling for a bit. Ceoil (talk) 15:39, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
No rush to get this done. Z1720 (talk) 15:44, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
Thanks and phew! Z1720. I'm comfortable with this, and have made progress on the refs. Re "numerous sources that are not used", I'm fine that it doesn't indicate a gap in comprehensive; the article follows TOC wise the broad format of general surveys. Unused sources now moved to further reading. Have added a notes section, and am half way through converting harv to snf (tiresome work). Have removed a few uncited additions. Will ping when done overall and you can re-assess. Realistically, I'll ping you in a month. Ceoil (talk) 02:49, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
A lot of progress made, so....<ahem> Ceoil (talk) 00:36, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

@Ceoil: Sorry that I missed this note above! I see that lots of improvements have been made. Here are some additional comments to get this back to FA standards:

  • Unreferenced passages needs citations. I added some cn tags, and others are outstanding.
  • There are no post-2009 sources cited in the article. Is there recent scholarship on this person worth citing?

I'll do a deeper dive when the above are addressed. Z1720 (talk) 16:02, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

Infobox issues

The infobox for this article was added in 2020 without discussion. It has remained now and is -in my opinion- a net negative to the article. So, I'd like to discuss it's utility and removal.

  • The IB was never part of the FA process.
  • His birthplace has an explanatory note in the text- that he was born on the Baltic coast of Germany in what was Swedish Pomerania. But the IB text lacks the nuance that at the time of his birth, it was still part of the Holy Roman Empire. Thus, saying he was born in Swedish Pomerania and forcing the reader to go to another page to figure out what it means is extra work. The note in the text explains better how and why that region changed hands. But it's also a little misleading and unclear.. it was technically ruled by the Swedish Empire but was part of the HRE, with Swedish princes ruling the rural areas. TLDR, it's too simplistic to simply refer to his birthplace as Swedish Pomerania in the IB.
  • Nationality- German. Should be clear by the first sentence in the article that he 'was a German Romantic landscape painter..'. Also, was he Prussian or German? Pomeranian? His movement was German Romanticism but the German Confederation (replacement for the HRE) was an mix of ethnicities. This parameter is again not nuanced enough to describe him as 'German.'
  • Known for 'Painting.' This is very obvious. Redundant.
  • Notable work- this is a mess. Which of his works is notable? He was prolific and was surprised to read that the works I am most familiar with are not listed here. Is there a criteria, or did someone list the paintings they like best? I think this runs afoul of WP:NOR, it should be what sources identify (as reflected in the test) as such. But I think they are too numerous to list accurately without being too much information for the reader.
  • Movement- Romanticism. Okay.. but the text identifies German Romanticism in the lead.

Anyone have thoughts on these issues? Jip Orlando (talk) 16:04, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Completly agree and have removed the box. Ceoil (talk) 23:40, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
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