| Revision as of 03:59, 31 March 2005 editJhballard (talk | contribs)405 edits moved discussion to sub-page← Previous edit |
Latest revision as of 22:03, 22 December 2024 edit undoRemsense (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Page movers, New page reviewers, Template editors58,932 edits →Does the lede need to be so long?: ReplyTag: Reply |
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== first paragraph == |
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Let's revise these sentences further: |
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:''After the war, the Inquisition declared her innocent on 7 July 1456 during an appeal on her case. The Church later canonized her in 1920.'' |
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The previous version I wrote was: |
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:''Centuries later, the Catholic church canonized her with her innocence as found by an earlier appeal after her death.'' |
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== Gender and Sexuality of Joan of Arc == |
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Sentences compliment each other in order. The idea that supports the main sentence is the canonization by the catholic church. The point about the appeal and her innocence supports the canonization. The previous sentence about the execution supports the main sentence. In MLA style, the point about the appeal would follow after the point about the canonization. If the paragraph was strictly in chronological order, each sentence would have a sequential order rather than complimentary. |
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Because the gender and sexuality of Joan of Arc are often debated, I was wondering if it would be appropriate to include the categories ] and ]. This is in no way an opinion for or against these theories, it is simply recognizing that they exist. I added these categories to the article ]. ] (]) 21:39, 16 October 2024 (UTC) |
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We know the part about the appeal is important, but to much detail distracts the reader. We want to entice the reader to want to read the entire article. Too many dates and the article appears technical; the reader has to think about what is written. Instead of "this occurred on blah-blah and this occurred on blah-blah" we just summarize and say "a few years later" That is why I put "Centuries later" instead of specific dates that are already covered in the body text. I tried to use similar sentences like the two above. I put it in MLA format and got the awkward: |
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:''The Church later canonized her in 1920. After the war, the Inquisition declared her innocent on 7 July 1456 during an appeal on her case. '' |
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:I'm open to adding the category, the sub-article on the topic definitely illustrates some of the issues and the debate. But, I know that this has been a contentious issue with Joan. There are some editors with strong opinions on the topic, maybe they will weigh in. ] (]) 16:38, 17 October 2024 (UTC) |
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We can remove the dates because they are expressed in the body text. If the reader is really interested in the dates, the reader will read the entire article. |
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:''The Church later canonized her. After the war, the Inquisition declared her innocent during an appeal on her case. '' |
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== Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 29 October 2024 == |
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Which is easier to read but still awkard. We can see that a few centuries passed between her death and her canonization. Let's simply explain that to the reader. |
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:''Centuries later, the Church canonized her. After the war, the Inquisition declared her innocent during an appeal on her case. '' |
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{{Edit extended-protected|Joan of Arc|answered=yes}} |
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We still need the info about the appeal, but the phrase "after the war" is vague. Since "centuries later" follow right behind the date recorder of her death that is not so vague. The reader doesn't know about which war. We originally had the Hundred Year's war, but that is replaced by "In 1429 and 1430." Let's delete it becuase the war isn't significant at that time anyways. |
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Please link this phrase: |
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:''Centuries later, the Church canonized her. The Inquisition declared her innocent during an appeal on her case. '' |
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broken a promise of marriage |
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Which is not so awkward, but it lacks clarity and implication that joins the two ideas together. This is simply done: |
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:''Centuries later, the Church canonized her, for the Inquisition declared her innocent during an appeal on her case. '' |
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using this code: |
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We could use "so" instead of "for": |
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:''The Inquisition declared her innocent during an appeal on her case, so, centuries later, the Church canonized her.'' |
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<nowiki>]</nowiki> |
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Which implies that her canonization happened directly because of the appeal, which is not true, so we can't use "for" or "so" here. |
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Let's update the tense, but I don't like this version: |
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:''Centuries later, the Church canonized her. The Inquisition declared her innocent from an appeal on her condemnation.'' |
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Also, a couple of sentences earlier, there's a passage reading |
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Which could change to imply "condemnation" by the pointed out metonym "death" in the previous sentence. |
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:''Centuries later, the Church canonized her. The Inquisition declared her innocent from an appeal after her death.'' |
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<nowiki>] saints</nowiki> |
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Let's try to join these ideas again, and represent the time between the "centuries later" and "death." |
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:''Centuries later, the Church canonized her with her innocence as declared by the Inquistion from an earlier appeal after her death.'' |
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Since the sentence also says that they were ''tortured and martyred'', please change these words to |
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This almost works, but it needs clarity because "from" is vague with either the declaration or the canonization. This is why I had it, like: |
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:''Centuries later, the Church canonized her with her innocence as found by an earlier appeal after her death.'' |
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<nowiki>]</nowiki> |
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Which works. It doesn't distract the reader with too many dates. It leaves out some critical information, but such is already found elsewhere in the document. We could expand it and put some critical information back in, but that might be another distraction. I prefer the simplier form, for I know I can read further into the body text to get more details. The only problematic word here is the word "church," as it is vague for which church. Do we know of a specific group inside the church besides the pope that started the canonization? - ] 20:33, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC) |
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The women referenced in this section both appear in the prose at the beginning of the target section. Thank you. ] (]) 23:43, 29 October 2024 (UTC) |
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:{{not done}}:<!-- Template:EEp --> no need for the first link per ]. Second link is fine. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff"> ‥ </span>]</span> 23:46, 29 October 2024 (UTC) |
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==Major edits without discussion== |
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Seems an anonymous user did a major edit without bothering to look at the discussion page. |
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Logged in as 205.188.116.203 entire sections were deleted, the summary was removed, and substantial portions of text were removed. I restored the last edit prior to this major edit with a note in my "Edit Summary" about engaging in discussino before a major edit.--] 01:10, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC) |
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:] 02:34, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC) wrote: I updated the text from the major edit by AWilliamson, and I explained every detail, mainly MLA style. I hope we can add more body text or links that refer within the text to add complete detail. I suspect it is the only way for this piece move towards npov. |
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== Didn't she refer to herself as Jehanne? == |
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==NPOV== |
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In the page it says that she refers to herself as "Jeanne," but isn't this the standardized version of her name? You even have her signature in the page "Jehanne" ] (]) 12:40, 20 November 2024 (UTC) |
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] 08:06, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC) wrote: |
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:I like this article. I appreciate the work being done about my family, for I am a descendant of ], Jeanne's father. The article does need much work for further clarity and a balance between objective and subjective statements. I'm open-minded about the history, but I'm concerned about the statements that are in ] or similar. A statement like "the fire killed Joan of Arc," is passive, for a clearer statement is "Joan died in a fire that was lit beneath her while she was tied to a stake." Much of documented testimony becomes an implied subject; moreover, to promote that Joan stated such-and-such when actually the testimony, the documents themselves, stated such-and-such explicity reveals an obvious passive voice usage, unintentional or not. After I read this article and the discussion, I felt it strongly implied that much of the written testimony of the trial of Joan is not a strong source of facts, but this does not mean to forget them. They obviously contain pieces of the complete puzzle. To gather the pieces, is this not a motive behind wikipedia? Let's put them together; share the knowledge. Good work! |
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--- |
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:Have you seen all the different ways Shakespeare signed his name? More or less, orthography in every European language before 1800 was sporadically standardized at best. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff"> ‥ </span>]</span> 12:43, 20 November 2024 (UTC) |
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] 06:30, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC) wrote: |
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:This article still compells us to improve it, obviously. By the consensus on this talk page, the article is still in a very POV state which must change to NPOV. I didn't mean to put three edits up there with the same edit summary about pov/npov on Pro-English, for it was a network error that made it appear like it didn't save. The body text of the article, not the first paragraph, is the best place to put all the details to convince the reader that the clergy was pro-english. When I read the first paragraph, and many other statements, I such words spoilied critical points. The point is more clearly made if you let the reader decide how to catagorize the individuals written about. I've read other stories and watched movies and had no problem that there is evidence that the trials were biased. To continue to point out the biased view makes it appear that you have another objective besides than to relay the facts. As a descendant of her family, I have received good and bad reactions from those who have known. If I have an objective on this article, it is to relax some ideas and "end the war" for good, for it still has had an affect. Well, actually I rather see it well-written at MLA standard, being well respected. I like the article, but if I turned this article in with its current state to the English professors I've known, it would fail on clarity, sequential support and use of passive voice. I know news articles and journals tend to let passive voice slide, but MLA has become a means to communicate very effectively. This article would mislead an academic writer. It does not provide a bases an academic writer can use. Therefore, it wouldn't be used. Academic writers that must write in MLA style tend to choose sources that follow MLA style. If the sources aren't in MLA standards, the academic writer risks expository assignments with creativity. |
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== Does the lede need to be so long? == |
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To Allen Williamson: |
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This article has a gold star, but I have no idea why so much biographical detail is needed in the summary of a ]. I am not going to attempt to edit it but as someone familiar with being concise I think it can be trimmed down to give a snapshot of her, without being so long. ] (]) 21:06, 22 December 2024 (UTC) |
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I fear that this otherwise wonderful article will NEVER see the front-page of Misplaced Pages. It is entirely too one-sided. And despite your skillful and adroit deflections what you are doing is obvious to anyone with eyes and a brain. Preventing this article from containing any shred of neutrality dooms it to the nether-regions of Misplaced Pages. |
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: ''she requested to be taken to Charles VII, later testifying that she was guided by visions from the archangel Michael, Saint Margaret, and Saint Catherine to help him save France from English domination. Convinced of her devotion and purity, Charles sent Joan, who was about seventeen years old, to the siege of Orléans as part of a relief army. She arrived at the city in April 1429, wielding her banner and bringing hope to the demoralized French army. Nine days after her arrival, the English abandoned the siege. Joan encouraged the French to aggressively pursue the English during the Loire Campaign, which culminated in another decisive victory at Patay, opening the way for the French army to advance on Reims unopposed, where Charles was crowned as the King of France with Joan at his side. These victories boosted French morale, paving the way for their final triumph in the Hundred Years' War several decades later.''Why all of this detail in a summary? <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 21:08, 22 December 2024 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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:It's four full-ish paragraphs, which is roughly what we aim for. The passage you posted is a pretty memorable narrative arc in her life. If I were to pick an FA to rag on its lead, it wouldn't be this one. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff"> ‥ </span>]</span> 22:03, 22 December 2024 (UTC) |
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Threatening others with "banning" is not your say either. Perhaps you, like everyone else here, should be held to the standards of this encyclopedia. In fact perhaps breaking one of the fundamental rules should be grounds for a ban. --] 23:08, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC) |
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:Well, while I do perfectly agree with your statements - and I have been in mediation with ], too (with not results) - it seems that by now any appeals to him might be somewhat pointless, since his last edit is from 18th of January 2005 (not couting one edit to the Sandbox) . So there is some hope that he is gone for good, and therefore, the article has a fair chance of becoming NPOV ''and'' more complete after all. |
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:Actually, it is a shame that somebody who so obviously is knowlegeable about a subject is so utterly useless to WP, but given the debate at ] and others I obviously won't cry too much if I never have to have a single exchange with him again. Should he not be gone, I might point to the decision of the ArbCom regarding Everyking, who showed a very similar attitude to other articles, especially . That decision prompted me ''not'' to go for arbitration after the failed mediation, simply because there was a fresh decision about the same problem, so it was unnecessary. |
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:However, if he is indeed gone for good, I would very much appreciate if the article indeed becomes more NPOV, and does not fall from one extreme into the other - many WP editors have an atheist bias, and there is no more proof that any of the "mental illness" theories is correct than there is for the "mission from God" theory. (In fact, the two are not even mutually exclusive; nor are they the only possible explanations.) -- ] 17:24, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC) |
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::Ok, I have added a variation of Wjbean's suggestion (on the 14th), since it's similar to what I had already said I would add some time ago (and yes, I hadn't gotten around to it yet). I would prefer to add more historical detail, but since this is what was being asked for, I hope that we can finally put this issue behind us rather than initiating another "edit war". |
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::Regards, |
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::Allen Williamson, Joan of Arc Archive (] 18:21, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)) |
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:::Allen: Please DO add more historical data. I find that there are some articles here that are far more wordy than other subjects that could be twice or three times as long. |
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:::Any argument can be made as to her state of mind or state of grace. Any argument can also include a sentence or two that has a mediating effect upon that argument. The point, I'm sure, is not to slander the maid, but to present her in such a way that non-Christians can appreciate her without taking offense. |
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:::The anniversary of Joan's death falls on May 30th. It would be great if this article was front-page ready by that date. --] 00:00, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC) |
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:::Minor edits to "Visions" section to break up long sentences and wikify the terms ] and ] --] 00:14, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC) |
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NPOV: In regards to the NPOV tag, see below on some of the debates: it seems that every time an argument or some scientific explanation has been but forth for Joan of Arcs visions, it is quickly deleted (see also the article's history). There has been abundant and considerable research into scientific explinations for Joan's visions, none of which is suggested in the text, or in any of the external links (which are predominantly pro-catholic). While there is considerable use of "weasel words" there seems to be a pro-religious attitude to the text by the error of intentional omission, which can be easily rectified by allowing inclusion of other points of view on Joan's history and visions - something that, to date, has been consistently excised. A good exapmple of a page that looks at all sides of an issue, religious, scientific, and secular, is the page on ]. --] 16:00, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC) |
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:The issue is as follows: all attempted explanations of Joan's "voices" have been based on the common misconception that her visions were described merely as auditory sensations which only she could hear - a false notion based (loosely) on only one small portion of what is described in the documents. She herself, as well as other sources, said bluntly that other people (e.g., the Count of Clermont, Guy de Cailly, etc) could simultaneously experience her visions, which sometimes took a concrete physical form which she and occasionally other people could see, touch, etc, rather than just "voices" that were internal to her own mind. It could also be noted that the predictions she relayed from these visions are in some cases recorded even in enemy diplomatic correspondence dated prior to the fulfillment of these predictions (e.g., the (pro-Burgundian) Rotselaer correspondence). This is the actual evidence we have to work with, and if there's a natural explanation for this type of thing, it certainly cannot be any of the various mental disorders that have been proposed. |
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:Stating the above is not "POV", it's simply an explanation of what the documented evidence actually says, as opposed to popular misconceptions among non-historians. |
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:Regards, |
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:Allen Williamson, Joan of Arc Archive (] 03:47, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)) |
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::Thank you for replying. In regards to your answer, you state facts and "misconceptions," and that is fantastic. But, the nature of this encyclopedia dictates that you should reserve that for the article: specifically, allow another point of view, other than your own, and rebut it; and allow others to rebut your statements in the article. I'm not saying take a discussion to the main page (that is what this is for), but simply allowing other points of view in - not just the pro-saint, pro-catholic point of view this article represents. If the psychological argument for Joan's visions was a fringe theory, than it would be understandable - however, googling the subject shows that quite alot of people ascribe to this theory. Simply allow the point to be made, then make a counterpoint, "other people (e.g., the Count of Clermont, Guy de Cailly, etc) could simultaneously experience her visions." Another argument to the NPOV tag is that there are few cited sources, and most of the external links are to religious organizations or sites that asribe to an entirely holy Joan. Once again, the ] entry is a prime example how to do it: clearly, Christians would not aggree with the secular and scientific arguments on Christ's life, but there is also the religious view that is provided for balance. It should be the same here - but it isn't, because you and a few others simply have not allowed it, which is a diservice to the wikipedia, the wikicommunity, and to Joan of Arc, who was an amazing human being (holy or not). Please consider letting others contribute, regardless of their argument, and let Misplaced Pages's proven process elevate this entry to the heights we know it deserves to be. Thank you for your time. --] 09:58, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC) |
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:::First of all: I would gladly include a section mentioning some of these psychological theories so long as I'm allowed to cite what the historical evidence actually says on the relevant subjects. |
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:::Secondly: most of those sites are not particularly "religious" in orientation: you are interpreting any citation of the accepted documentation as having a "religious" motivation, when in fact it is simply the evidence accepted by historians. Even anti-Catholic historians such as Quicherat stated the very same facts; and indeed Quicherat went out of his way to note both Joan's well-documented piety and orthodoxy as well as to point out that the evidence frankly attests to the apparent accuracy of her predictions. Quicherat was anticlerical, and was therefore not motivated by any "pro-Catholic bias" on his own part: he was simply stating the documented facts. Likewise for any site which mentions the same evidence. |
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:::On a final point: Yes, there are many websites which claim that Joan had literally every mental disorder known to medical science, and there are many people who will claim that historians are "biased" if they point out why these ideas are wrong; but there have been an even greater number of published books which claim that she was a member of the Royal family rather than a peasant, or English rather than French, etc; and the people who believe in these theories will make the very same accusations of "bias" against any historian who points out what the facts are. Over the years, I've even been accused of bias for stating that Joan lifted the siege of Orleans, since there are authors (e.g., Roger Caratini) who claim that Joan allegedly never led an army at all. |
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:::In any event, I can add a section dealing with the "mental disorder" theories you think should be mentioned, so long as I'm allowed to cite what the documentary sources actually say. |
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:::Regards, |
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:::Allen Williamson, Joan of Arc Archive (] 04:05, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)) |
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::::The problem with starting with an argument ("mental disorder" - your words, by the way, not mine), and then work your way to the evidence while putting in the other side of the argument favors the other side over the first. Additionally, the "documentary sources," such as they are, if taken literally will automatically favor a holy over human viewpoint. What needs to be done is to ''start out'' with the known evidence - ''then'' look at the arguments which can be derived. For instance, a simple example could read: "Young Joan had visions. Many believe (for such and such reasons) that they were holy (''then provide evidence, cite sources''). Others believe (based on such and such) that there are psychological or physiological explinations for said phenomenon (''provide evidence, cite sources'')." Folowing that formula will give a truly neutral perspective that is needed. It is also important to not downplay an argument whether or not you believe in it. |
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::::Re Site Bias, a full quarter of the sites listed in the external links are overtly Catholic - either being listed as such, or in content. Of note is by a Norman Boutin. The site's title ("Joan of Arc Information") and description ("deals with several misconceptions") gives the air of neutrality, but a casual stopover on the page reveals it to be . |
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::::Now, the inclusion of overtly religious links '''would ''not'' be a problem''' if there were a comparable listing of resources in favor of scientific viewpoints of the evidence. But there are none. At all. A good place to start would be to find (or allow) competant sites exhibiting that viewpont to be posted. |
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:::::I think there are. There is at least one non-religious link. For example the (between myself and mr. Williamson) much disputed link to the reconstructed portrait and accompanying biography. It's now in the list of links, despite mr. Williamson's objections. ] 15:31, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC) |
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::::Finally (at least in regards to external links), I would urge you to remove your website from the list. Your site may have an impressive amount of content, but it gives the (deserved) air of self promotion, as much of the Joan of Arc entry has been written/rewritten/edited/kept up by you. |
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:::::No, I don't agree. Although the site's content may be somewhat religious, it's still a great source and it should be mentioned in the list of external links. That has nothing to do with self-promotion. It was me who added the link in the first place, not mr. Williamson. ] 15:36, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC) |
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::::Also, the article, as it now stands, contains no cites of websites (etc.) from which specific info is derived, reducing transparency. I recommend, for anyone adding to this (or anything) that a visit to ] is a great step forward. |
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::::So. Here we are. Where to start, to bring this article to neutrality, aside from the points above? Foremost is restraint. Don't automatically remove content because you disagree with it (which equally applies to those wanting to make a scientific argument). The perfect first step would be to allow the epilepsy view in - I mention that because that would be the easiest to do as the relevant links and content is stored in the history. If you (specifically) don't wish to start the scientific threads, than ]. |
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::::Most important, remember it should remain as EVIDENCE then ARGUMENT with cites, then ARGUMENT with cites. --] 11:09, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC) |
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:::::To Jeffrey O. Gustafson: First of all, most of the history-related information given at sites such as the one by Norman Boutin (which you dismiss as "dubious") is confirmed, |
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::::::While certainly dates may be accurate, the dubiousness is in the commentary, which is decidedly biased, and frankly troubling in it's blind devotion to a preconcieved notion of divinity. On the first page alone, under what, um, someone might consider the acedemic header entitled "Was Joan of Arc schizophrenic? NO! Psychiatrists need their heads examined," the author asserts that it simply cannot be because, "no psychiatrist ever talked to Joan." Yeah. |
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::::::And then, astonishingly, directly under that, the author asserts that Joan had an IQ of "300" , based on Twain's account. The author ignores the fact that Joan was never given an IQ test... |
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::::::The first page, back to back examples, and you wonder why I think its dubious. --] 03:14, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC) |
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:::::::I had forgotten about those comments on the site. Nevertheless, as I said before and as you agreed above, the portions dealing with the basic historical facts are accurate. I don't like his usage of Twain's fictional novel, etc, but some sites are based on fiction with regard to even the basic facts (see my next comment farther below). ] 03:02, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC) |
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:::::on the main points at least, by the original sources: e.g., his information debunking various misconceptions, for example, is mostly just the standard view that historians have stated many times, along with some of his own ideas, granted. You are once again trying to analyze information without reference to the underlying evidence, by assuming that any site which presents Joan a certain way "must" be based on a personal bias - roughly analogous to claiming that anyone who argues that Napoleon won the battle of Austerlitz must be "biased" in favor of Napoleon, although the evidence proves that he did, in fact, win the battle. I already pointed out that even anti-Catholic historians have taken much the same view as these allegedly "biased" authors. |
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:::::Much the same points can be made concerning many of the other sites listed. Additionally, it could be noted that the fact that a quarter of them are, by your estimation, Catholic, is little more than a reflection of what's available out there: many Catholic sites include a short biography of Joan of Arc and many Catholics have an interest in her, since she's a Catholic saint. |
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::::::That is certainly logical, and a good point. However, there are also many quality sites that look at the issue from a psychological stand-point. As noted, these have been excised or intentionally ommited. --] 03:14, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC) |
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:::::::That's because their version is based on manifest distortions or misconceptions on a basic point - i.e., the evidence concerning her visions which these sites are "analyzing". This is therefore a falsification of history on the only issue which these sites address - unlike the site you have been objecting to, which contains much factual information on many issues. ] 03:02, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC) |
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:::::Secondly, concerning the sources upon which my revisions to the article were based: the portions I added or modified were based on my research on the original documents. For my own material (outside of Misplaced Pages), I have footnotes citing the documents which were used as sources, but since I had never seen anything similar used in any Misplaced Pages article, I had left these out. I can add them, so long as I won't be accused of wrongdoing for citing primary sources -- despite what the official policy may state, in many articles there has been a constant battle whenever editors cite, or demand citation of credible sources, with the result that many Misplaced Pages articles are based on nothing but internet rumors and outright fiction. |
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::::::Please qualify this statement. Additionally, your original research isn't necessary. Start with the accepted evidence and then move onto the interpretations, whether or not you aggree with them. You don't need to add anything to the known evidence. What you need to add is a balanced interpretation of evidence. And cites. Because there still are none. (See above) --] 03:14, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC) |
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:::::::I believe I already addressed this before, and it ties into my comments on the next point (see below). ] 03:02, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC) |
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:::::There are endless headaches for anyone who tries to follow or demand a higher standard. |
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::::::A higher standard of research is certainly respectable. But here the higher standard is about inclusion and neutrality. --] 03:14, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC) |
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:::::::"Neutrality" has to be judged based on whether the original evidence is being accurately quoted, as I've said before. This is, in the end, the crucial point which concerns all of the issues being discussed here. ] 03:02, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC) |
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:::::Thirdly, concerning my site being listed: as Switisweti pointed out farther above, I was not the one who added my site, and there's no legitimate reason to delete it. |
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::::::I aggree. I also feel there was no legitimate reason to delete the epilepsy links, either, from a while ago. --] 03:14, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC) |
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:::::::I explained the reason for that (i.e., the distortion of evidence) in a comment farther above. ] 03:02, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC) |
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:::::Finally: as I said, I can present the evidence concerning Joan's visions, although you're going to have to allow me to state what the evidence actually says rather than dismissing any citation of it as an indication of "bias". |
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::::::Yes! That is the point: Show the evidence, show what you feel it "says," and also show what others say it says. |
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:::::I'm also going to have to be allowed to state the contrary evidence against the interpretation that she had various mental disorders, |
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::::::Which is absolutely fantastic, as long as you do those who hold opposite views to yours to do the same. Allow the contrary evidence against the interpretaion that she was a messenger from God. |
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::::::Once you have done this, then it will be neutral. --] 03:14, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC) |
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:::::::The nature of the "contrary evidence" you're alluding to has already been discussed (i.e., it's a distortion of the actual evidence). If I'm allowed to simply cite the historical documentation in relation to such theories - which is the only reasonable procedure - then I will certainly do so. I will add it as time permits. |
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:::::::Regards, |
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:::::::Allen Williamson, Joan of Arc Archive (] 03:02, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)) |
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:::::since the evidence is entirely against this view (the complex visual and tactile nature of her visions would alone rule out disorders which only produce very simple visual or auditory distortions, such as Temporal Lobe Epilepsy; and the shared nature of some of her visions would rule out all of them). |
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:::::Regards, |
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:::::Allen Williamson, Joan of Arc Archive (] 03:41, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC)) |
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==Various== |
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The old pages Joan of Arc (cross-dressing) and Talk:Joan of Arc (cross-dressing), which have a lot of history and disucussion (respectively) have been archived into Talk: space subpages here, as ] and ] (respectively). ] ] 16:50, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC) |
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----- |
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Hearing voices is a sign of ]. How is Joan viewed by advocates of the "hearing voices means psychosis" schoold of thought? --] |
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:No, hearing voices '''that aren't there''' is a symptom of psychosis. You demonstrate that Joan's voices weren't there, and then we'll have a basis for discussion. -- ] 3 Sep 2002 |
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The burden of proof surely lies with those who support a divine version of the story. They should demonstrate that there is a plausible mechanism for hearing voices (from where?!) that "are there" but have no external manifestation. -- Ashley - May 30 2004 |
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:See comments on this subject farther above. |
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:Regards, |
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:Allen Williamson, Joan of Arc Archive (] 04:05, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)) |
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---- |
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The article says that different plays offered very different interpretations on her life. Could this point be elaborated on? For instance, what interpretation did each play use, or how did each portray her? ] |
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---- |
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] has two songs the subject of which are Joan of Arc: "Joan of Arc" and "Maid of Orleans." --] |
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---- |
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"Eventually, the Roman Catholic church canonized her as a saint on May 16, 1920." |
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What about a ]? ;-) |
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--] 22:48, 6 Aug 2003 (UTC) |
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PS: Just kidding - I did not want to offend anyone's religious feelings ... |
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:Formally, the Church didn't burnt them. At least with the Inquisitions, sinners were "relaxed to the secular arm", the civil (or militar) authorities. "The Church does not shed blood". But I don't remember another case of a Christian saint martyrized by a same-confession Chutch. Maybe ]? Have some repressed Jesuit or Templar become saint? -- ] 00:13, 7 Aug 2003 (UTC) |
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---- |
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:''Samuel Clemens wrote a fictional autobiography of Joan of Arc under the pen-name of Sieur Louis de Conte, forgoing his usual pen name of Mark Twain.'' |
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Somewhow, I don't think "autobiography" is the word that's wanted here. |
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- - - - - |
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Some years ago, an article (sorry, no reference) appeared in the popular press, claiming that documentation had been found to show that a peasant woman was burned in Joan's place. Records of the execution are said to mention that the prisoner was shrouded and therefore not identifiable to the crowd. Joan was claimed to have been taken to The Netherlands, IIRC, where she lived a long life with no further involvement in politics. Evidently she was convinced to shut up and drop out, in return for which she was allowed to live. This claim seems to have sunk without a trace. I cannot recall the credentials of the people behind the story. Anyone?? TIA --LBlake |
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----- |
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==Trial question== |
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I have heard that during her trial, Joan faced a question on heresy designed to trip her up, and I would like confirmation or refutation of the story. She was asked by the inquisitors whether she was in a state of ]. Answering "no" would mean she was a ] and worthy of death. Answering "yes" would be presuming to know the mind of God, in itself a heresy also worthy of death. Joan neatly evaded death by replying, "if I am in a state of grace, I have only God to thank for it, and if I am not, I pray to God that he help me achieve it." I always thought this story a good example of her intelligence, which she must have also exhibitted in her battle tactics (if she in fact led the battles, of which I am also uncertain). Can anyone confirm this tale? |
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--] 01:59, 2 Feb 2004 (UTC) |
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I can confirm the question and answer. From an English translation of the transcript of her public examination: |
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"Do you know if you are in the grace of God?" |
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"If I am not, may God place me there; if I am, may God so keep me. I should be the saddest in all the world if I knew that I were not in the grace of God. But if I were in a state of sin, do you think the Voice would come to me? I would that every one could hear the Voice as I hear it. I think I was about thirteen when it came to me for the first time." |
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-- Paul Murray, 6 Sep 2004 |
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In French :<br> |
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— Êtes-vous en état de grâce ?<br> |
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— Si je n'y suis pas, que Dieu m'y mette ; si j'y suis, que Dieu m'y garde.<br> |
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Quite intelligent for a so-called "peasant". Inspired by the Holy Spirit, this answer leads the Church to think she was in the grace of God. ] 12:16, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC) |
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==Picture thumb== |
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I put that in as an easy way to get a caption. The picture does not currently show what it is of. ] 16:15, 27 May 2004 (UTC) |
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== ] == |
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Hello everyone. ] and ] have been having an edit dispute over an external link to a controversial reconstructed painting. I'd like to propose that the link be left in the article. It ''does'' say that it is a reconstruction, and as such that automatically means to me that it is likely not to be 100% historically accurate. I see it as a harmless enough inclusion for people interested in such things. For example, in the ] article there are several external links to schools that I know personally to be run by fraudulent, incompetent hacks, yet I suffer their presence because they are relatively well known fraudulent, incompetent hacks with hundreds and thousands of incompetent students and therefore notable. The reconstructed painting may or may not be fraudulent, but it is well known to Joan's aficionados, apparently. I will put in that it is a controversial reconstruction, will that do? A discriminating person should be able to make up their own mind on the issue if they have sufficient information. Regards, ] 17:34, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC) |
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:Thank you ], I totally agree with you. This is a good solution. to ], a few critical comments concerning this link shouldn't do any harm. Something like "the views displayed on this site are on debate", but just "controversial" will do too. And indeed it's a controversial painting, as is the text. But still, all relevant links should be included, devotive ones as well as critical or even controversial ones. Again: this is alright. ] 00:18, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC) |
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<BR>---- |
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<BR>First of all: the problem isn't with the portrait so much, but with the falsification of another historical issue in the accompanying text. I already covered this point when it was brought up on my talk page. |
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:Why don't you just put a more elaborate comment next to the link to explain why that certain detail is a falsification in your opinion? Maybe others could respond to that and something like a consensus could grow from that. That's more worthwile than just ignoring and deleting. |
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::Please see my comments on this farther below. |
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<BR>Secondly: the painting is not "well-known": it's something that was just recently made and put online by the site's owner. If you're implying that it has a historical value in its own right, then that certainly isn't the case. |
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:But that's just your personal opinion as a self-proclaimed historian. ] 07:38, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC) |
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::Please see my comments on this farther below. |
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<BR>Finally: If we need to include links to fraudulent information of this sort, then it would also be necessary to add links to sites claiming (for example) that Joan was English (which is an actual theory, believe it or not), or that she allegedly never played any role in the Hundred Years War, etc. Applying this principle to other subjects, the Napoleon article would need to be revised to reflect Charles Philipon's theory that Napoleon never existed, and so forth. The end result would be an "encyclopedia" which is merely a list of every conceivable absurd idea, with little or no educational value. |
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:If all these so-called "absurt" ideas and theories were included — (naturally) well commented, that would be nice. That would in fact enrichen this encyclopedia! ] 07:38, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC) |
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<BR>Given that 99% of the many thousands of sites on Joan of Arc are already being excluded from the "External Links" section, I have to ask why this specific site needs to be listed, especially given that it's one of the least accurate? |
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:Please ad those 99%. The current list is one I too worked on, and I couldn't find any other sites (except for exact doublures). ] 07:38, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC) |
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<BR>Regards, |
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<BR>Allen Williamson, Joan of Arc Archive (] 03:23, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)) |
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<P>---------- |
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<BR>To respond to Switisweti's comments: |
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<BR>Firstly, In answer to your edit comments on the article itself: The version promoted by the website in question was rejected by not only myself, but also Quicherat, Champion, Pernoud, DuParc, etc (... break by ], continues below) |
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:I seriously thought Quicherat lived during the nineteenth century, but maybe I was wrong. Obviously Quicherat himself visited that particular link and he must have told you his findings. Maybe he still tells you his opinions from the afterlife. I guess you mean that Quicherat (as well as Champion and Pernoud, etc.) share '''your''' vision on your beloved Joan of Arc. Or even better: you agree with '''them''', when you read their writings. You can't be serious about exactly knowing what these people would have thought about a particular web site. Anyway, your point is clear. You feel supported by these "friends" of yours. It's very funny and sweet in a certain way. I rest my case. I respect your persistence. ] 23:02, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC) (Why not include articles about those historians, BTW? I already made links: just click and write!) |
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::As you know, the point was that since this site merely repeats an old and long-discredited version which was rejected by past as well as present historians, these experts debunked the old piece of fiction that the site's information is based on. This shouldn't need to be explained. ] 04:01, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC) |
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(..)- the latter group being the chief historians who did the seminal groundwork on the subject, or who otherwise made important contributions. This wouldn't need to be explained to anyone who had researched the subject in any depth, since the above persons are recognized as among the most important scholars in this area, and their view is in fact the dominant view among reputable historians - a consensus has already been reached by experts. This website's version, on the other hand, is a variation of a fictional idea that was popularized by people such as the playwright George Bernard Shaw. |
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<BR>Secondly: A full explanation of the site's errors would be far too long for an external link entry. I already posted a summary of the evidence when this came up on my talk page. <BR>Thirdly: the painting in question was, according to the site's own information, made by the site owner himself, rather than being a painting with a long and illustrious history in its own right. This isn't my "opinion", but rather the author's own description. |
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<BR>Regards, |
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<BR>Allen Williamson, Joan of Arc Archive (] 04:23, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)) |
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== Epilepsy theory == |
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] |
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Why are my changes being deleted regarding Jehanne's epilepsy? I have documented why this may be so! |
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Please stop deleting my edits! Joan of Arc COULD have had epilepsy. I have documented PUBLISHED RESEARCH on this! |
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:Greetings, and welcome. |
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:Aside from the reason already given by Switisweti, it is also the case that - as I believe other historians have pointed out before myself - the epilepsy theory is based on an erroneous or incomplete conception of how Joan's visions are described in the documents, thereby resulting in an erroneous theory. I'm currently writing up letters to send to the sites you listed (plus the academic journal which had a similar article) in order to correct their information: once given accurate information about Joan's case, I'm sure they will agree that epilepsy is not a feasible explanation, and will hopefully change their pages accordingly. |
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:If necessary, I can also expand Misplaced Pages's article so that it gives a fuller accounting of what the evidence is on this point (without citing any specific explanation or personal interpretation of this evidence). |
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:Regards, |
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:Allen Williamson, Joan of Arc Archive (] 05:28, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)) |
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] |
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This is just nuts! The journal Epilepsia is a PEER-REVIEWED journal and the article that I list in the "links" section was written by two prominent neuroscientists from one of the most prominent research academic institutions in the world. Since I have cited published research for my claims, the edits should stand until you can provide evidence from the neuroscience community to the contrary. Again, I use the word “possibly”. Can you provide evidence that Jehanne’s experiences were NOT the result of epilepsy?? Sounds like a POV to me! |
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:It can, and has, been proven that she did not have epilepsy - among others, Judy Grundy wrote a piece rejecting the notion, and (more importantly), the people you cited were basing their theory on entirely erroneous historical information about the person they were analyzing - they certainly may be experts on epilepsy, but they are not historians and their conception of the historical facts concerning their "patient" was based on misconceptions, resulting in a flawed diagnosis. I'll be sending the websites you mentioned the correct information, as well as sending a letter or short article submission to the academic journal in question. If any doubt remains after they see the valid evidence, I will discuss it with these people, not here at Misplaced Pages. |
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:Regards, |
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:Allen Williamson, Joan of Arc Archive (] 03:13, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)) |
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'''Removed debate between Mr.Williamson and me below, since it became quite illegible''' -- ] 00:32, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC) |
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:However, Jehanette, do sign your entries properly, that is with <nowiki> -- ~~~~ </nowiki>, and two BR tags are completely unnecessary, too. And if you answer to something, use the appropriate number of colons in front of your answer. You are more likely to be taken seriously by others if you stick to established conventions. And those are not that difficult to learn, either :-) --] 16:35, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC) |
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::Well lets not get too testy here. As someone who enacted one of the reverts, in my defense, let me say that they really do look like vandalism (initially anonymous edits, overwriting seemingly valid parts of the article, etc.) However, at this point I will leave it up to people more knowledgeable than myself to decide whether or not to include this information --] 18:43, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC) |
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:::Write a seperate chapter about this epilepsy-theory with a lot of "may" and "could" etc. and incorporation of the information is fine. Not just a short remark between brackets in a section that covers a completely different subject. That's just to easy and looks like vandalism, especially when the edits are anon. ] 20:49, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC) |
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::::Okay, fine, but why did you delete the entries that I added in the "external links" section? I will write a seperate chapter and submit it in a week or two. --] 21:48, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC) |
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== A debate about "evidence" and "style" == |
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'''I removed this debate from above, because it rips the epilepy debate apart. Also, I move parts of the debate to the left again, because it has become quite illegible. No other changes are being made.''' -- ] 00:32, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC) |
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:The talk of this subject can be found on ] |
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==The "Clothing" section== |
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Needless to say, I do consider Rebroads's addition, in view of the debate that has been going on for a month now, and the mediation currently going going on, as highly problematic. (His edits on ] and other things also make me wonder about his motive, but that seems a pointless route to pursue here and now.) I will refrain from editing the article unilaterally, though, since that would only hinder mediation as it would most certianly spur a heated reaction from Mr. Williamson. This of course only applies as long as mediation takes place. -- ] 00:32, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC) |
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==Trivia== |
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===Historical representation === |
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Expanded description and title of ]'s fictionalized history of Joan of Arc. Reworded paragraph concerning the naming of French ships.--] 18:14, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC) |
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== descension summary == |
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I saw some question about my ancestry being related to Joan of Arc. Here is a brief sequence of ancestry descent: Jacques D'Arc de Lys -> Pierre D'Arc de Lys -> Jeanne de Lys -> Marie le Fournier -> Nicolas de Marguerie -> Madelaine Marie de Maigen de Bretteville -> Nicholas de Launay -> Machael de Launay -> Louis Gervais deLaunay -> Louis Michael Antoine deLaunay -> Louis Jacques deLaunay -> Francis Van Bartel desIsles -> Adeline L. DesIsles -> Anna Emery Haynes -> Edna Haynes Goudey -> Lorraine Des Isles Mayer -> my mother -> me, ] 07:23, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC) |
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In the page it says that she refers to herself as "Jeanne," but isn't this the standardized version of her name? You even have her signature in the page "Jehanne" Tisthefirstletter (talk) 12:40, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
This article has a gold star, but I have no idea why so much biographical detail is needed in the summary of a WP:LEDE. I am not going to attempt to edit it but as someone familiar with being concise I think it can be trimmed down to give a snapshot of her, without being so long. Hausa warrior (talk) 21:06, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
level-3 vital article is rated FA-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
Not done: no need for the first link per WP:OL. Second link is fine. Remsense ‥ 论 23:46, 29 October 2024 (UTC)