Revision as of 12:56, 29 January 2024 view sourceDanRayy (talk | contribs)38 edits →Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 29 January 2024: new section← Previous edit | Latest revision as of 17:08, 16 January 2025 view source JacktheBrown (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers77,608 edits Undid revision 1269804778 by Nemov (talk) No, it's not correct to collapse the discussion just because you disagree with what I wrote. I've responded to your comment without insulting (which I never do) and without going off-topic, so it's not correct to collapse the discussionTags: Undo Mobile edit Mobile app edit Android app edit App undo | ||
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== Current consensus == <!-- Must be on this page, not the subpage, to support mobile users --> | |||
{{/Current consensus}} | {{/Current consensus}} | ||
== Biden believes he could have won re-election == | |||
== Requesting the “moderate” label be removed from lede, but for different reasons == | |||
While I agree that Joe Biden is in fact a moderate within the Democratic Party, I haven’t yet found another Misplaced Pages page for another politician with enough prominence whose ideological position is mentioned in the lede. It’s really odd to me, especially as this is a relatively new addition to the lede. I haven’t found any former President’s to have a label either in the lede. ] (]) 20:20, 12 December 2023 (UTC) | |||
For example, most other politicians pages say “A member of the ______ party,” rather than, “An ideologically ______ member of the _____ party.” Ultimately, I feel there is an ulterior motive behind the decision to add this label. I agree with it, but it’s been put in the lede for a reason. ] (]) 20:22, 12 December 2023 (UTC) | |||
:Biden isn't a progressive. ] (]) 20:49, 12 December 2023 (UTC) | |||
:Please do not accuse other editors of editing an article with "ulterior motives" unless you have some evidence to support such an accusation. See ]. ] (]) 00:18, 13 December 2023 (UTC) | |||
:{{tq|I haven’t yet found another Misplaced Pages page for another politician with enough prominence whose ideological position is mentioned in the lede.}} ]. But this is irrelevant per ]. ] ] ] (she/they 🎄 🏳️⚧️) 00:18, 21 December 2023 (UTC) | |||
== Israel section == | |||
I agree the CCR suit is undue here, that doesnt have the coverage to merit inclusion, but the criticism of his policies on Israel do have that coverage. @], would you agree generally that criticism of the support Biden has provided for Israel merits including a sentence on it there? Or, as you reverts indicate, are you simply opposed to any coverage at all? Because you also removed {{tq|Several scholars have accused Biden of being complicit in or permitting ].}} citing {{Cite news |last=Finucane |first=Brian |date=2023-11-17 |title=Is Washington Responsible for What Israel Does With American Weapons? |language=en-US |work=Foreign Affairs |url=https://www.foreignaffairs.com/israel/washington-responsible-what-israel-does-american-weapons |access-date=2023-12-14 |issn=0015-7120}}. A number of other sources can be added if you think there isnt weight in sourcing here. ''']''' - 17:23, 14 December 2023 (UTC) | |||
:My thoughts are, this is about his presidency, we can't clutter up this article with stuff about that. ] (]) 17:27, 14 December 2023 (UTC) | |||
::But why then include any part of it? It isnt NPOV to not include prominent controversies for the subjects we cover. If his position on the war is covered then so to should criticism of that position. If it doesnt belong at all, then neither does most of that section. ''']''' - 17:41, 14 December 2023 (UTC) | |||
:::I agree, so why cover it at all. ] (]) 17:48, 14 December 2023 (UTC) | |||
::::Sure, if it was gotten rid of entirely I wouldnt be here. But covering it and not including criticism is why I am here. But currently we cover it in the lead and in a subsection, with nary a hint of any of the substantial criticism it has generated. ''']''' - 18:02, 14 December 2023 (UTC) | |||
:::::There's criticism of Israel's responses to Oct. 7 but nothing substantial and widespread that's particularly personal to Biden. A few fringey criticisms -- that he's responsible for everything alleged to be done by Netanyahu (whom he views with profound disdain) -- don't make it significant enough for his bio.]] 20:46, 14 December 2023 (UTC) | |||
::::::No, there is criticism of the United States in relation to Israel's actions, that criticism is about the policies of Biden, not Israel. And they certainly are not fringe. ''']''' - 14:35, 15 December 2023 (UTC) | |||
:::::::In addition to being FRINGE, we also cannot unduly associate {{purple|"criticism of the United States in relation to Israel's actions"}} with this biography.]] 17:04, 15 December 2023 (UTC) | |||
::::::::There is criticism of Joe Biden's actions as president, which we cover at great length in his biography. ''']''' - 17:19, 15 December 2023 (UTC) | |||
:I agree that the CCR lawsuit is very much ] here. Regarding criticism of Biden's stances on the war, if additional sources could be provided it ''might'' be worth a sentence or two in the biography and possibly some more space in ]. However, the way that sentence was worded seems ]. I don't have access to the full article to read the entire context, but assuming the sentence {{tq|Several scholars have accused Biden of being complicit in or permitting war crimes}} is based on the lede's statement {{tq|Further, U.S. officials risk complicity if Israel uses U.S. support to commit war crimes}} that seems like a misrepresentation of what the source actually says and how strongly it says it. Regardless, if criticism of Biden's positions on Israel were to be included it would need more sourcing to demonstrate due weight. <span style="font-family:Courier New;font-size:3">]</span><sup>]</sup> 21:55, 14 December 2023 (UTC) | |||
:Yes, it is absolutely bonkers that there isn't even a sentence such as "Biden's staunch support for Israel's military campaign in Gaza has sparked significant domestic pushback and protest. Many scholars warn that the United States risks being complicit in war crimes". This is pretty much just a down-the-line account of the situation. Let's do something here. ] (]) 23:28, 27 January 2024 (UTC) | |||
::It s not "bonkers" when what you claim is patently untrue. All presidents have supported Israel's right to self-defends. Many college-aged students and some liberal members of Congress support Palestine. This is all routine. ] (]) 03:07, 28 January 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::It is not routine. And what part of my claim is "patently untrue"? ] (]) 19:02, 28 January 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::1) It is routine, and 2) pretty much all of it. Your position has gained no consensus, so it is time to move on. ] (]) 19:05, 28 January 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::You aren't actually responding to anything I said, it's just "You're wrong". Give me specifics. The SCALE is so much bigger than what has happened before, which makes it worthy and notable. ] (]) 19:17, 28 January 2024 (UTC) | |||
I was actually going to make a new section on this, but I think it's related to this section so I'll add it here: | |||
The nickname "Genocide Joe" has gotten significant coverage, including a response from the White House. It's mentioned in ]'s article. So the question is, shouldn't it be mentioned here on Joe Biden's article, given that it's directed at him? | |||
Just going off of news reports on Google, we have , , , , , , , , , and others providing coverage of this nickname. I think it makes sense to mention this "Genocide Joe" nickname here on Joe Biden's article, and the "Israel" subsection seems like a good place to put it.--] (]) 22:44, 14 December 2023 (UTC) | |||
:One's angry, frustrated little critics create pejoratives all the time, they are rarely noteworthy in that person's biography. It is certainly not noteworthy to the bio of John Kirby either, and should be removed. It was only added on Nov 27th to a little-trafficked Wiki page. ] (]) 23:42, 14 December 2023 (UTC) | |||
::The sentiment . It has more importance internationally, I'd say, then a mere domestic policy dispute. ] (]) 12:32, 15 December 2023 (UTC) | |||
:::US is despised. Dog bites man.]] 13:46, 15 December 2023 (UTC) | |||
I support greater mention of the backlash to Biden's policies re Israel-Hamas, potentially in the lede, depending on other's thoughts. I think this policy is likely to define his presidency in the foreign policy arena, and has already generated significant domestic discontent as well. "Genocide Joe" seems more approopriate for ]. ] (]) 19:07, 6 January 2024 (UTC) | |||
:To this non-American, non-expert, Biden's position on Israel seems broadly the same as that of every president for the past 70 years. If it was different, it would definitely be worthy of comment, but without further explanation, I see very little of long term significance in it. ] (]) 02:38, 7 January 2024 (UTC) | |||
::It's significant because it is getting significant pushback in the streets, at universities, even among politicians in his own party. ] (]) 17:16, 7 January 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::As opposed to strong support, as it would have in the past. ] (]) 17:18, 7 January 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::That is not even remotely a truthful statement. Support of Israel and opposition to Hamas/Palestinians, and vice versa, does not hew to party lines. At the moment we see the likes of Candace Owens and Ilhan Omar condemning Israel, and the likes of Lindsey Graham and Joe Biden united in their Israel support. Even Donald Trump says he will support Israel by deporting pro-Palestinian student protesters. ] (]) 17:39, 7 January 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::Strongly agree with the above re support/opposition cutting in unexpected ways, which is why the situation is notable and is (very,very probably) historic. ] (]) 18:34, 7 January 2024 (UTC) | |||
:This has become a significant issue for Biden and is the main cause for his decline in support among Muslim voters and possibly also why younger voters now favor Trump. Past presidents did not by the way routinely agree with everything Likud did, as Lawrence J. Korb, a senior fellow at the Center for American Progress, points out.https://responsiblestatecraft.org/2021/05/24/ronald-reagan-wasnt-afraid-to-use-leverage-to-hold-israel-to-task/] I certainly agree that not everything that comes up belongs in the article, but this has now achieved due weight for inclusion. ] (]) 21:53, 28 January 2024 (UTC): | |||
::Agree - ] (]) 02:39, 29 January 2024 (UTC) | |||
== JRB & LBJ == | |||
Perhaps {{ping|Bill Williams}} & {{ping|SPECIFICO}} you may both want to work things out 'here', about President Biden's negotiation skills with the US Congress, concerning whether they need to be included or excluded, in his BLP. ] (]) 19:01, 17 December 2023 (UTC) | |||
:His negotiating skills are irrelevant, the debt ceiling has been raised under every president for decades, with negotiations occurring every single time. Obama and House Republicans "almost" came to a default twice, yet that has no mention in his lead because it is not notable. My edit also removed any mention of Build Back Better, because you aren't going to find failed ideas that never came to fruition in the lead of any other president's article. It isn't notable for the lead and went absolutely nowhere, with barely anything in the IRA being related. ] 19:10, 17 December 2023 (UTC) | |||
::You're stating an incomplete and misleading personal narrative. That has nothing to do with the content, which is significant and widely noted in RS. Failed ideas in a BLP? Mexico's goning to pay for it, Muslim Ban, Secret Plan to end the Vietnam War, "54°40' or fight!", Secession of the Confederacy, and other great ideas that succeeded?]] 19:32, 17 December 2023 (UTC) | |||
:::What would actually be helpful here is to see some text and sources. – ] (]) 20:05, 17 December 2023 (UTC) | |||
::::I thought the text that BW removed was good enough to stay in place.]] 20:11, 17 December 2023 (UTC) | |||
::::: is what the disagreement is about? This is so minor that I don't know that I'll form an opinion either way. – ] (]) 20:16, 17 December 2023 (UTC) | |||
::::::I agree it's minor, so I have given no thought to whether it can be improved. But I do feel that the version I restored is a better reflection of what RS consider significant. The LBJ thing is not on the table for article text, so I hope it is not raised as a reason to gut the existing brief mention of Biden's collaborations with Congress.]] 20:29, 17 December 2023 (UTC) | |||
:::::::It's just pushing a narrative of how amazing Biden is because he saved the U.S. from a default. Meanwhile, every single President has negotiated raising the debt ceiling when that came up in Congress, so you could claim they stopped numerous defaults except for the fact that it isn't notable because these negotiations happen all of the time. The U.S. was "closer" to a default not once but ''twice'' under Obama, yet it doesn't belong in his lead hence it isn't there. Zero reason as to why that belongs in Biden's lead, especially in the POV nonsense way it currently is written. ] 22:33, 26 December 2023 (UTC) | |||
::::::::{{tq|every single President has negotiated raising the debt ceiling }}. This is simply false. "Negotiation" is a new thing. Previously, Congress just passed clean debt ceiling increases. One party in Congress now regularly threatens to destroy the world economy in order to get something they want that they otherwise cannot get Congress to pass. ] (]) 22:58, 26 December 2023 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::Correct. ] shows that this gamesmanship around the debt ceiling began in 1995. – ] (]) 23:14, 26 December 2023 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::I'll go further. Even the Republicans in the current Congress cannot negotiate with each other. The fact that a Democratic president has managed to get major bills passed with this congress is ]. ] (]) 23:21, 26 December 2023 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::Which brings me back to the point I made on December 17 about wanting to see sources to that effect to get a sense of the WEIGHT RS give his negotiation abilities. – ] (]) 23:37, 26 December 2023 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::::It's a hilarious joke, he negotiated nothing by himself, it was congressional Democrats more than him. Also, O3000 can make some partisan statements against Republicans if he wants (see his irrelevant ranting above), but that doesn't make this DUE for the lead. Obama had two separate "close calls" even worse than what Biden dealt with and Obama negotiated both increases just as much as Biden did. Yet, notice how it isn't in his lead, because a debt ceiling increase is not notable. ] 02:12, 31 December 2023 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::::In your haste to attack another editor personally, complain about the topic rather than the article, and go on a "but other stuff" tangent, it seems that you forgot to make an actual point. ] (]) 02:16, 31 December 2023 (UTC) | |||
{{od|:::::::::::::}}Include or exclude? Seems to me this content dispute has reached a stalemate. No doubt more editors will need to be invited to give their input. ] (]) 14:30, 31 December 2023 (UTC) | |||
== why was his position on the New Castle County council removed?! == | |||
{{Infobox officeholder | |||
| footnotes = {{Collapsible list | |||
|titlestyle = background:lavender;text-align:center; | |||
|title = Other offices | |||
|bullets = on | |||
| 2007–2009: Chair of the ] | |||
| 2001–2003, 2007–2009: Chair of the ] | |||
| 1987–1995: Chair of the ] | |||
| 1971–1973: Member of the New Castle County Council from the 4th district | |||
}}}} | |||
It seems like it should be worth noting on his bio as a previous office held. lots of other political leaders have a local offices listed before their entry into federal politics. just seems like it's a random thing to remove and I know it was there in the past ] (]) 23:00, 12 January 2024 (UTC) | |||
:It is mentioned in the 2nd paragraph of the opening section, it doesn't need to be in the infobox. ] (]) 00:34, 13 January 2024 (UTC) | |||
In December 2024, as was widely reported, Biden told aides he regretted his decision to withdraw from the race; believing he would have won the election as his party's nominee.<ref>{{Cite news |last=Massie |first=Graeme |date=December 29, 2024 |title=Biden still regrets dropping out of 2024 race and believes he could have beaten Trump, says report |newspaper=] |url=https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/biden-trump-us-elections-2024-merrick-garland-b2671126.html |access-date=December 29, 2024 }}</ref><ref>{{Cite news |last=Pager |first=Tyler |date=December 28, 2024 |title=Joe Biden’s lonely battle to sell his vision of American democracy |newspaper=] |url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/12/28/bidens-lonely-battle-to-sell-american-democracy/ |access-date=December 29, 2024 }}</ref><ref>{{Cite news |last=Tait |first=Robert |date=December 28, 2024 |title=Biden reportedly regrets ending re-election campaign and says he’d have defeated Trump |newspaper=] |url=https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/dec/28/joe-biden-regrets-dropping-out-re-election |access-date=December 29, 2024 }}</ref><ref>{{Cite news |last=Calder |first=Rich |date=December 28, 2024 |title=Biden regrets leaving presidential race, thinks he could’ve beaten Trump: report |newspaper=] |url=https://nypost.com/2024/12/28/us-news/biden-regrets-leaving-presidential-race-thinks-he-would-beat-trump/ |access-date=December 29, 2024 }}</ref><ref>{{Cite news |last=Stimson |first=Brie |date=December 28, 2024 |title=Biden still regrets dropping out of 2024 presidential race, believes he could have beaten Trump: report |publisher=] |url=https://www.foxnews.com/politics/biden-still-regrets-dropping-out-2024-presidential-race-believes-he-could-have-beaten-trump-report |access-date=December 29, 2024 }}</ref> | |||
:This has been discussed in the past & the consensus was to 'exclude' from the infobox. ] (]) 01:01, 13 January 2024 (UTC) | |||
:Support keeping it at bottom of the page, not in infobox, as it is ''both'' important to the start of his carrer, yet minor when viewing his career as a whole. ] (]) 22:44, 15 January 2024 (UTC) | |||
This information is confirmed by multiple ] and is obviously relevant to his notability as a politician. ] (]) 15:36, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
: |
:But is it actually relevant, (assuming its true). ] (]) 15:47, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | ||
::Helps provide an overall summary of Biden's political career? Keep in mind this is just in the footnotes section at the bottom of the infobox since its a minor point of the overall article. Example provided - ] (]) 16:33, 13 January 2024 (UTC) | |||
:It's fine there. Certainly a good compromise. ]<sup>]</sup> 22:56, 15 January 2024 (UTC) | |||
:No footnote. What's so important about his time on the New Castle Country council, that 'now & then', somebody wants to add it to the infobox? ] (]) 23:21, 15 January 2024 (UTC) | |||
:"Anonymous Sources Said" is a red flag for ] articles. We're not a tabloid. ] (]) 22:34, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
{{ref-talk}} | |||
== Oldest living President of the United States box??? == | |||
== Post Economies == | |||
Aren't we pushing it too much, with trivia? Do we really need an Oldest living President of the United States succession box??? ] (]) 00:24, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
Paid positions are self retained and housed by the Federal Government. This particular man comes from background including cooking etectera. Most `presidents` were more interesting because they didn't have internet. I know right. After what came before the great depresssion, it seemed that air conditioning was a problem. Not a problem. I know, right. Well, we've seen them all, from Mary Poppins to Charles Earl. Well, after he gets up, the pastimes of being on tv with his constituents add up. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 14:42, 23 January 2024 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
:What are you suggesting we do to this article? ] (]) 14:44, 23 January 2024 (UTC) | |||
No objections? I've deleted it. ] (]) 20:30, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
== Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 29 January 2024 == | |||
== RfC on ways to include Gaza war in the lede == | |||
{{edit extended-protected|Joe Biden|answered=no}} | |||
Sleepy Joe Biden | |||
<!-- ] 14:01, 15 February 2025 (UTC) -->{{User:ClueBot III/DoNotArchiveUntil|1739628070}} | |||
{{rfc|bio|pol|hist|rfcid=8E993C6}} | |||
The current single sentence on Gaza in the lede is as follows: {{green|During the Israel–Hamas war, Biden condemned the actions of Hamas as terrorism and sent military aid to Israel, as well as humanitarian aid to the Gaza Strip.}} The sentence is regularly modified, including the word "limited" which keeps being added/removed in front of "humanitarian aid". I started ] on this topic a while ago; it didn't get a lot of input and didn't lead to a consensus. I thought this RfC could generate a larger discussion and settle a few related questions at once: | |||
* Should the "military aid" and "humanitarian aid" be mentioned side by side as is? | |||
* Should we mention that the amount of military aid sent to Israel is ? | |||
* Next to the mention of military aid, should there be a mention of allegations of war crimes against Israel? | |||
Feel free to expand the discussion to other questions. My hope is that we can workshop a sentence that has a consensus behind it. Thanks! ] (]) 13:58, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*'''Remove sentence outright:''' I'm not entirely convinced that Gaza bears mentioning in the lede at all. The lede should probably only contain a single paragraph on Biden's entire presidency; is a war between two other countries one of the 7 or 8 most important things in Biden's entire presidency? <sub style="border:1px solid #FFCC00;">]</sub> 19:31, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*{{sbb}} but I'm having a hard time with this RfC. I'm surprised the article doesn't mention Israel at all outside of the events since October 2023. It's written in a poor timeline/recentist style with no historical context. I hope that will change once his departure from office provides some space to clean things up without the pressure to add the headlines of the day. i.e. It's well documented that Biden has for decades viewed the US-Israel relationship as fundamental to US interests in the Middle East, advocating military aid throughout his career. His decisions since 2023 were largely a continuation of that position rather than emerging from a vacuum. What changed most (putting aside arguments about the how the nature of this particular conflict was different from those in the past) was greater international outcry and, most importantly, persistence amid significant domestic opposition/pressure. The current sentence, which includes both military and humanitarian aid is acceptable in terms of summarizing the ''current'' article. No, obviously it shouldn't mention war crimes, which are mentioned nowhere in the article. Yes, of course we should include ''some'' summary of a long, four-paragraph section. If the article were to be improved, I'd think the ranking of relevant bits for the summary would be (1) Long-term commitment to US-Israel relations, (2) military support for Israel as president amid significant domestic opposition and international criticism, (3) humanitarian aid and pressuring Israel to address the humanitarian crisis, (4) being for or against various ceasefires. YMMV. — <samp>] <sup style="font-size:80%;">]</sup></samp> \\ 20:33, 12 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*'''Comment''' — As with {{U|Rhododendrites}}, this is a tough RfC. I am split between removing this sentence outright and including it. The U.S. is said to have sent Israel in the year since the war began, but the U.S. regularly spends a magnitude greater than that biannually on Ukraine aid. The Israel–Hamas war was not a defining moment of Biden's presidency. However, my conviction for that belief is not as strong as the other editors here, and I see no issue with keeping the sentence. If you were to ask me what defined Biden's foreign policy, I would say the wars in Ukraine and Gaza. | |||
:The question posed here is effectively whether or not this sentence gives undue weight to Hamas or Israel. It would not be reasonable to exclude one form of aid from this sentence. Biden showed embrace towards Israel in the weeks after Hamas led its assault on the country, but that support has since significant waned. When it comes to neutrality, it is not particularly unfair to say that Biden sent military aid to Israel and humanitarian aid to Gaza because that does not presuppose an impression on the reader in the way that going into further detail would. In other words, regardless of your opinion on Israel and/or Gaza, the fact is that the U.S.—this is a distinction that may or may not be important to other editors here—has supported Israel and the Gaza Strip. | |||
:By contrast, the other two bullet points do suggest that Biden is supportive of Israel and that he is supportive of war crimes, respectively. Leaving this sentence as vague as possible is not only a benefit to avoid these kinds of discussions, but also to prevent the lede from expanding into multiple paragraphs. The "historical record" here is not necessarily relevant to the broadest point possible. That relationship between additional details and the plain facts is strained by the third bullet point, which has no relevance to providing aid and highly suggests that Biden is complicit in war crimes. That may be true, but it is not neutral without a widespread understanding that there is an intent to support war crimes with aid. In the simplest possible form, Biden provided military aid to Israel and humanitarian aid to the Gaza Strip. <span style="font-family: monospace;">] (he/him)</span> 05:47, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::I recently read an article in ''The New York Times'' about Biden's legacy that includes the war in Gaza. Given today's news that Israel and Hamas signed an armistice with U.S. assistance, I find that excluding this sentence is not a solution. It was a struggle during his presidency that lost him support. <span style="font-family: monospace;">] (he/him)</span> 22:11, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*'''Remove from lead''' Joe Biden's political history goes back 50 years and this isn't central enough to his biography to justify mentioning in the lead. This could be revisited later to properly weigh as the Gaza story is still unfolding. As it stands now, this isn't important enough to the story of Joe Biden to justify inclusion in the lead. ] (]) 15:04, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:{{Ping|Nemov}} like it or not, '''the enormous amount of aid that outgoing President Biden authorised to Israel was one of the major events of his presidency'''.<br />"Joe Biden's political history goes back 50 years and this isn't central enough to his biography to justify mentioning in the lead." '''In any biography, the events of a presidency are, of course, much more important than those that took place decades earlier'''; your statement, therefore, isn't valid in this case. ] (]) 01:05, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*::Thankfully you're not the arbiter of what is or isn't valid. ] (]) 01:43, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:::Of course not, but what I wrote remains correct. ] (]) 07:11, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
* Equal mention of the military and humanitarian aid is false balance imo. I disagree with the assertion that the war was not a defining aspect of Biden's presidency and I don't understand what factual basis the comments minimizing its significance are supposed to have; it clearly deserves a mention, despite the bare assertion that it doesn't. Rhododendrites has the right idea. Biden has been a staunch supporter of Israel for decades. The lead should mention his administration's pro-Israel stance in the war in the context of his support for Israel throughout his entire career. ] (]) 03:36, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:{{+1}}. ] (]) 01:09, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
* I don't think that the "historical record" is a good idea. I first thought you meant that the US had sent more aid to Israel than to any other conflict, including WWII, which is wrong. It's just ("just"?) the most ever sent from the US to Israel. ] (]) 03:07, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*'''Remove''' per Nemov. ''']'''<span style="border:2px solid #073642;background:rgb(255,156,0);background:linear-gradient(90deg, rgba(255,156,0,1) 0%, rgba(147,0,255,1) 45%, rgba(4,123,134,1) 87%);">]</span> 03:09, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*'''Retain''' in some form; his policy towards Israel was a sufficiently major part of his presidency, and has sufficient coverage as a major aspect of his political trajectory, that it deserves a brief mention in the lead of his bio. It's also discussed in the article, which means a brief sentence in the lead is good to summarize it. The exact wording, however, is tricky. Most of the changes mentioned in the RFC are not improvements. The historical record part seems like it's getting too deeply into the weeds for the lead-in; the war crimes part, while a ''bit'' more central to why his actions had the impact on his reputation that they did and why they faced more backlash than is usual, is too tangential for the lead, too. And, also, if we were going to mention anything related to that at all it would be the backlash inside his party ''first'', since that's what relates to him directly; mentioning the reason for the backlash instead is putting the horse before the cart. But none of that necessarily needs to go in the lead. If it's going to be expanded at all, what's needed is a few words on Biden's own views on US relations with Israel - this is his biography, after all, and they're views that were actually significant in terms of impact. With all that said there's nothing so glaringly wrong with the current version that it really ''requires'' any changes, and I fail to see how removing it entirely would be an improvement given that it was, all else aside, one of the major challenges of his presidency. --] (]) 17:54, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:"Should the "military aid" and "humanitarian aid" be mentioned side by side as is?" No, in my opinion it's not necessary. | |||
Change to "Joe Biden, also known as Sleepy Joe Biden, is an American politcian Blah blah blah." ] (]) 12:56, 29 January 2024 (UTC) | |||
:"Should we mention that the amount of military aid sent to Israel is ?" Yes, absolutely; it's a fact and '''Misplaced Pages should focus mainly on historical facts'''. ] (]) 00:46, 16 January 2025 (UTC) |
Latest revision as of 17:08, 16 January 2025
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Current consensus
NOTE: It is recommended to link to this list in your edit summary when reverting, as:] item
To ensure you are viewing the current list, you may wish to purge this page.
01. In the lead section, mention that Biden is the oldest president. (RfC February 2021)
02. There is no consensus on including a subsection about gaffes. (RfC March 2021)
03. The infobox is shortened. (RfC February 2021)
04. The lead image is the official 2021 White House portrait. (January 2021, April 2021)
05. The lead image's caption is Official portrait, 2021
. (April 2021)
06. In the lead sentence, use who is
as opposed to serving as
when referring to Biden as the president. (RfC July 2021)
07. In the lead sentence, use 46th and current
as opposed to just 46th
when referring to Biden as the president. (RfC July 2021)
08. In the lead section, do not mention Biden's building of a port to facilitate American aid to Palestinians. (RfC June 2024)
Biden believes he could have won re-election
In December 2024, as was widely reported, Biden told aides he regretted his decision to withdraw from the race; believing he would have won the election as his party's nominee.
This information is confirmed by multiple WP:RS and is obviously relevant to his notability as a politician. ZebulonMorn (talk) 15:36, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- But is it actually relevant, (assuming its true). Slatersteven (talk) 15:47, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- "Anonymous Sources Said" is a red flag for WP:BLP articles. We're not a tabloid. Zaathras (talk) 22:34, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
References
- Massie, Graeme (December 29, 2024). "Biden still regrets dropping out of 2024 race and believes he could have beaten Trump, says report". The Independent. Retrieved December 29, 2024.
- Pager, Tyler (December 28, 2024). "Joe Biden's lonely battle to sell his vision of American democracy". The Washington Post. Retrieved December 29, 2024.
- Tait, Robert (December 28, 2024). "Biden reportedly regrets ending re-election campaign and says he'd have defeated Trump". The Guardian. Retrieved December 29, 2024.
- Calder, Rich (December 28, 2024). "Biden regrets leaving presidential race, thinks he could've beaten Trump: report". New York Post. Retrieved December 29, 2024.
- Stimson, Brie (December 28, 2024). "Biden still regrets dropping out of 2024 presidential race, believes he could have beaten Trump: report". Fox News. Retrieved December 29, 2024.
Oldest living President of the United States box???
Aren't we pushing it too much, with trivia? Do we really need an Oldest living President of the United States succession box??? GoodDay (talk) 00:24, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
No objections? I've deleted it. GoodDay (talk) 20:30, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
RfC on ways to include Gaza war in the lede
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The current single sentence on Gaza in the lede is as follows: During the Israel–Hamas war, Biden condemned the actions of Hamas as terrorism and sent military aid to Israel, as well as humanitarian aid to the Gaza Strip. The sentence is regularly modified, including the word "limited" which keeps being added/removed in front of "humanitarian aid". I started a discussion on this topic a while ago; it didn't get a lot of input and didn't lead to a consensus. I thought this RfC could generate a larger discussion and settle a few related questions at once:
- Should the "military aid" and "humanitarian aid" be mentioned side by side as is?
- Should we mention that the amount of military aid sent to Israel is a historical record?
- Next to the mention of military aid, should there be a mention of allegations of war crimes against Israel?
Feel free to expand the discussion to other questions. My hope is that we can workshop a sentence that has a consensus behind it. Thanks! WikiFouf (talk) 13:58, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
- Remove sentence outright: I'm not entirely convinced that Gaza bears mentioning in the lede at all. The lede should probably only contain a single paragraph on Biden's entire presidency; is a war between two other countries one of the 7 or 8 most important things in Biden's entire presidency? pbp 19:31, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
- (Summoned by bot) but I'm having a hard time with this RfC. I'm surprised the article doesn't mention Israel at all outside of the events since October 2023. It's written in a poor timeline/recentist style with no historical context. I hope that will change once his departure from office provides some space to clean things up without the pressure to add the headlines of the day. i.e. It's well documented that Biden has for decades viewed the US-Israel relationship as fundamental to US interests in the Middle East, advocating military aid throughout his career. His decisions since 2023 were largely a continuation of that position rather than emerging from a vacuum. What changed most (putting aside arguments about the how the nature of this particular conflict was different from those in the past) was greater international outcry and, most importantly, persistence amid significant domestic opposition/pressure. The current sentence, which includes both military and humanitarian aid is acceptable in terms of summarizing the current article. No, obviously it shouldn't mention war crimes, which are mentioned nowhere in the article. Yes, of course we should include some summary of a long, four-paragraph section. If the article were to be improved, I'd think the ranking of relevant bits for the summary would be (1) Long-term commitment to US-Israel relations, (2) military support for Israel as president amid significant domestic opposition and international criticism, (3) humanitarian aid and pressuring Israel to address the humanitarian crisis, (4) being for or against various ceasefires. YMMV. — Rhododendrites \\ 20:33, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
- Comment — As with Rhododendrites, this is a tough RfC. I am split between removing this sentence outright and including it. The U.S. is said to have sent Israel $17.9 billion in the year since the war began, but the U.S. regularly spends a magnitude greater than that biannually on Ukraine aid. The Israel–Hamas war was not a defining moment of Biden's presidency. However, my conviction for that belief is not as strong as the other editors here, and I see no issue with keeping the sentence. If you were to ask me what defined Biden's foreign policy, I would say the wars in Ukraine and Gaza.
- The question posed here is effectively whether or not this sentence gives undue weight to Hamas or Israel. It would not be reasonable to exclude one form of aid from this sentence. Biden showed embrace towards Israel in the weeks after Hamas led its assault on the country, but that support has since significant waned. When it comes to neutrality, it is not particularly unfair to say that Biden sent military aid to Israel and humanitarian aid to Gaza because that does not presuppose an impression on the reader in the way that going into further detail would. In other words, regardless of your opinion on Israel and/or Gaza, the fact is that the U.S.—this is a distinction that may or may not be important to other editors here—has supported Israel and the Gaza Strip.
- By contrast, the other two bullet points do suggest that Biden is supportive of Israel and that he is supportive of war crimes, respectively. Leaving this sentence as vague as possible is not only a benefit to avoid these kinds of discussions, but also to prevent the lede from expanding into multiple paragraphs. The "historical record" here is not necessarily relevant to the broadest point possible. That relationship between additional details and the plain facts is strained by the third bullet point, which has no relevance to providing aid and highly suggests that Biden is complicit in war crimes. That may be true, but it is not neutral without a widespread understanding that there is an intent to support war crimes with aid. In the simplest possible form, Biden provided military aid to Israel and humanitarian aid to the Gaza Strip. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 05:47, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- I recently read an article in The New York Times about Biden's legacy that includes the war in Gaza. Given today's news that Israel and Hamas signed an armistice with U.S. assistance, I find that excluding this sentence is not a solution. It was a struggle during his presidency that lost him support. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 22:11, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- Remove from lead Joe Biden's political history goes back 50 years and this isn't central enough to his biography to justify mentioning in the lead. This could be revisited later to properly weigh as the Gaza story is still unfolding. As it stands now, this isn't important enough to the story of Joe Biden to justify inclusion in the lead. Nemov (talk) 15:04, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Nemov: like it or not, the enormous amount of aid that outgoing President Biden authorised to Israel was one of the major events of his presidency.
"Joe Biden's political history goes back 50 years and this isn't central enough to his biography to justify mentioning in the lead." In any biography, the events of a presidency are, of course, much more important than those that took place decades earlier; your statement, therefore, isn't valid in this case. JacktheBrown (talk) 01:05, 16 January 2025 (UTC)- Thankfully you're not the arbiter of what is or isn't valid. Nemov (talk) 01:43, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- Of course not, but what I wrote remains correct. JacktheBrown (talk) 07:11, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thankfully you're not the arbiter of what is or isn't valid. Nemov (talk) 01:43, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Nemov: like it or not, the enormous amount of aid that outgoing President Biden authorised to Israel was one of the major events of his presidency.
- Equal mention of the military and humanitarian aid is false balance imo. I disagree with the assertion that the war was not a defining aspect of Biden's presidency and I don't understand what factual basis the comments minimizing its significance are supposed to have; it clearly deserves a mention, despite the bare assertion that it doesn't. Rhododendrites has the right idea. Biden has been a staunch supporter of Israel for decades. The lead should mention his administration's pro-Israel stance in the war in the context of his support for Israel throughout his entire career. Monk of Monk Hall (talk) 03:36, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- I don't think that the "historical record" is a good idea. I first thought you meant that the US had sent more aid to Israel than to any other conflict, including WWII, which is wrong. It's just ("just"?) the most ever sent from the US to Israel. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:07, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- Remove per Nemov. Andre🚐 03:09, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- Retain in some form; his policy towards Israel was a sufficiently major part of his presidency, and has sufficient coverage as a major aspect of his political trajectory, that it deserves a brief mention in the lead of his bio. It's also discussed in the article, which means a brief sentence in the lead is good to summarize it. The exact wording, however, is tricky. Most of the changes mentioned in the RFC are not improvements. The historical record part seems like it's getting too deeply into the weeds for the lead-in; the war crimes part, while a bit more central to why his actions had the impact on his reputation that they did and why they faced more backlash than is usual, is too tangential for the lead, too. And, also, if we were going to mention anything related to that at all it would be the backlash inside his party first, since that's what relates to him directly; mentioning the reason for the backlash instead is putting the horse before the cart. But none of that necessarily needs to go in the lead. If it's going to be expanded at all, what's needed is a few words on Biden's own views on US relations with Israel - this is his biography, after all, and they're views that were actually significant in terms of impact. With all that said there's nothing so glaringly wrong with the current version that it really requires any changes, and I fail to see how removing it entirely would be an improvement given that it was, all else aside, one of the major challenges of his presidency. --Aquillion (talk) 17:54, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- "Should the "military aid" and "humanitarian aid" be mentioned side by side as is?" No, in my opinion it's not necessary.
- "Should we mention that the amount of military aid sent to Israel is a historical record?" Yes, absolutely; it's a fact and Misplaced Pages should focus mainly on historical facts. JacktheBrown (talk) 00:46, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
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