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==Relation to previous article== | |||
{{Talk header}} | |||
I do not recall exactly the previous article on this general subject; I assume that this one has been revised from the article discussed at Deletion review which in turn links to the AfD at | |||
{{Contentious topics/talk notice|topic=e-e}} | |||
{{Old AfD multi|page=Internet troll squads|date=2007 March 23|result='''delete''', see also ]}} | |||
{{Old AfD multi|page=Internet brigades (3 nomination)|date=2008 July 6|result='''no consensus'''}} | |||
{{old XfD multi |date=8 April 2007 |page=Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Internet_brigades (2nd nomination) |result='''keep'''}} | |||
{{WikiProject banner shell|class=B| | |||
{{WikiProject Russia|importance=Mid|pol=yes|media=yes|mil=yes}} | |||
{{WikiProject Internet|importance=Low}} | |||
{{WikiProject Espionage|importance=Low}} | |||
}} | |||
{{Online source | |||
| year = 2008 | |||
| title = Rumors of High Level US-Iran Direct Talks | |||
| author = Ludwig De Braeckeleer | |||
| date = ] ] | |||
| month = July | |||
| url = http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/4206 | |||
| org = ] | |||
| section = | |||
}} | |||
{{Archive box|search=yes| | |||
* ] <small>(2007–2008)</small> | |||
* ] <small>(2009)</small> | |||
}} | |||
== Conspiracy theory == | |||
:I see that there are only Russian sources for the earlier part of the article; there is nothing necessarily wrong with that, and some are translated. But because of the nature of the subject, I think it ''extremely important'' to find sources published by journalists from elsewhere, not directly involved in the controversy. ''']''' 04:59, 7 April 2007 (UTC) | |||
::I belive it is now a significantly different article, although some segments of text indeed concide. The title and content are very different, this article is much bigger and includes 14 references (the '''initial''' version of the article previously marked for deletion included '''only one''' reference, although I increased the number of references during deletion discussion). O'K, let' take a look at the references: | |||
1. ^ a b c China's secret internet police target critics with web of propaganda, by Jonathan Watts in Beijing, June 14, 2005, Guardian Unlimited | |||
2. ^ a b c d e f g Commissars of the Internet. The FSB at the Computer. by Anna Polyanskaya, Andrei Krivov, and Ivan Lomko, Vestnik online, April 30, 2003 (English translation) | |||
3. ^ a b c d e Eye for an eye (Russian) by Grigory Svirsky and Vladimur Bagryansky, publication of Russian Center for Extreme Journalism | |||
4. ^ Articles by Anna Polyanskaya, MAOF publishing group | |||
5. ^ They are killing Galina Starovoitova for the second time (Russian) by Anna Polyanskaya | |||
6. ^ Conspiracy theory by Alexander Usupovsky, Russian Journal, 25 April, 2003 | |||
7. ^ Operation "Disinformation" - The Russian Foreign Office vs "Tygodnik Powszechny", Tygodnik Powszechny, 13/2005 | |||
8. ^ Interview of Roman Sadykhov (Russian), grani.ru, 3 April, 2007. | |||
9. ^ Military wing of Kremlin (Russian), The New Times, 19 March, 2007 | |||
10. ^ " Grigory Svirsky Anastasya. A story on-line (Full text in Russian) | |||
11. ^ China's Hu vows to "purify" Internet, Reuters, Jan 24, 2007 | |||
12. ^ War of the words by Guardian Unlimited, February 20, 2006 | |||
13. ^ Who are China's Top Internet Cops? China Digital Times | |||
14. ^ Internet as a field of information war against Armenia, by Samvel Martirosyan, 18 October, 2006, | |||
Per , please bring a reliable source which says that the web brigade theory is a ''conspiracy'' theory. --] (]) 17:18, 25 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
References 1 and 7 are not written by Russian journalists, althouth they claim ''directly'' about the existence of this phenomenon. What do you mean: "involvement in controversy"? Do you mean that Ivan Lomko is "involved" because he discussed this matter in blogs after publication of his article? That sounds strange to me. But all other Russian authors are certainly not "involved" this way (Polyanskaya and references 3 (]), 8 and 9; others are not "Russian"). ] 06:03, 7 April 2007 (UTC) | |||
:Did you even try to read past the second phrase of this article?] (]) 17:30, 25 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
::Well, that one source is not enough to dismiss the theory as conspiracy. That is an opinion piece, and ] is not a neutral source as he is adviser of a head of the president's administration . If there are other third party neutral reliable sources dismiss this theory, then it will be ok, but a partisan source like Pavlovsky is not enough. --] (]) 17:37, 25 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
:::, and it quotes a lot of sources, only one of which claims this to be a "conspiracy theory".] (]) 22:19, 25 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
== Operation earnest voice == | |||
::What exacly is different for example? 1. Definition of the phenomenon was changed (so, we are talking about a different thing). 2. This is described as an international (not solely Russian) phenomenon. 3. More references was added and POV significantly reduced. ] 06:15, 7 April 2007 (UTC) | |||
Why is this here and not under its own article? The WL currently redirects to a company page with less information than is here. Will fork. ] (]) 20:56, 9 February 2012 (UTC) | |||
==Why this article does not qualify for speedy deletion== | |||
The rule says: | |||
"'''Recreation of deleted material.''' A copy, by any title, of a page that was deleted via Articles for deletion or another XfD process, provided that the copy is substantially identical to the deleted version and that any revisions made clearly do not address the reasons for which the page was deleted." | |||
I think this thing well deserves an article. I added it here, because it's a web-brigade, but please feel free to start a new one. ] (]) 09:27, 15 February 2012 (UTC) | |||
'''First,''' this article is not "substantially identical to the deleted version" (see below: it is sever times bigger and even its subject is significantly different). '''Second,''' even if to consider this as a recreation of an old article, the reasons for deletion were clearly addressed. The following critique has been provided during the deletion discussion: (a) wrong title; (b) ]; (c) this is not a solely Russian phenomenon. All of that clearly can not be said about ] article. (a) The title is different. (b) This is not OR; 16 references to reliable sources provided. (c) This is not a solely Russian phenomenon, as clear from the text. | |||
==Other examples== | |||
Now more detail:] 17:31, 7 April 2007 (UTC) | |||
What happened to the Chinese web brigades that used to be mentioned in this article? This used to be an article about the phenomenon of state-sponsored internet astroturfing as a whole, but now there seems to be no article about this topic on Misplaced Pages. Why not? There's a huge difference between a ] made by someone just to troll and organized operations for propaganda purposes. The ] article is pretty short and mostly talks about corporate examples. | |||
Here's a recent article that purports to be someone who worked on a pro-Israel astroturfing campaign, by the way: Is that something that can be included somewhere on Misplaced Pages? ] (]) 21:01, 10 January 2013 (UTC) | |||
First, I think this is new article. Yes, I have created previously the following article (''this is the text exactly as it was when it was marked for deletion and the voting began'' - see): | |||
:Yes, I think this article is in a poor condition and needs a lot of improvements. But I am a little afraid that if I resume editing here, this might start a battleground or something. But I can try and see what happens... ] (]) 21:24, 17 January 2013 (UTC) | |||
: Those are now mentioned at ], while this article is about its Russian variant, which is dubbed "web brigades"--] (]) 07:55, 20 April 2015 (UTC) | |||
'''Internet troll squads''' are teams of people from state security organizations who work in the ] to ] and ] ]s, prevent free discussion of undesirable subjects, and to create the public opinion desired by the authorities. | |||
== Astroturfing, web brigades, Operation Earnest Voice, 50 Cent Party, Internet Water Army, etc. == | |||
This phenomenon has been discovered in ] by a group of ]s led of Anna Polyanskaya, a former assistant to the Russian politician ] <ref> by Anna Polyanskaya </ref> | |||
This section is meant to be a continuation of the last two sections, which were related topics. I did a quick search of the web and our ] article (and a more thorough reading of this article) and could not find any evidence that "web brigades" is used outside Misplaced Pages as a generic term for state-sponsored internet astroturfing; it appears to be used only to describe Russian state-sponsored astroturfing. So I decided to be bold and split the content on Operation Earnest Voice to a new article. | |||
They found the appearance of organized and fairly professional “Squads”, composed of ideologically and methodologically identical personalities, who work in practically every popular liberal and pro-democracy blogs and internet newspapers of ] in Russian ]. Troll squads appeared suddenly on Russian-language forums only in ] and they have been presumably organized by ], according to Polyanskaya and her collegaues. | |||
<ref> by Anna Polyanskaya, Andrei Krivov, and Ivan Lomko </ref> | |||
In doing so, I also reorganized the Operation Earnest Voice article without adding or removing content with the following exceptions (I hope): I added links to the See also section, and added content to the leads of both articles identifying them as examples of astroturfing (they still need cleanup and work). | |||
These Internet “Squads” have a number of distinct features some of which are the folowing: | |||
*Boundless loyalty to ] and his circle | |||
*Respect and admiration for the ] and ] | |||
*Hatred of ] and ]s organizations and activists, ]s and ]s, especially ] and ]. | |||
*] and anti-Westernism. | |||
*Accusation of ] against everyone who disagrees with them. | |||
*A favorite method of the Squad is to accuse their opponents of being insane. | |||
*Low cultural level | |||
*Round-the-clock presence on forums. At least one of the uniform members of the brigade can be found online at all times, always ready to repulse any “attack” by a liberal. | |||
IMO, until "web brigades" (or Internet Water Armies, etc.) become accepted as the generic term for state-sponsored astroturfing, all these examples (including the Israeli example mentioned above) should be separate articles. Also, each of these articles should mention astroturfing prominently in the lead, and mention the other examples in the See also section (or perhaps as a sentence in the article?). | |||
==Sources== | |||
This seemed the obvious thing to do to me. I realize that these are controversial topics, so if consensus goes against me, I'm happy do undue my edits as necessary.--] (]) 23:27, 17 January 2013 (UTC) | |||
* and by | |||
:I agree with your edit and your comment above in general. "Operation Earnest Voice" obviously does not belong here. ] (]) 03:11, 18 January 2013 (UTC) | |||
::Okay, so since the main point of contention was about the name, I've created an article with a ''neutral, descriptive'' name about all of these programs: ]. ] (]) 08:51, 3 March 2014 (UTC) | |||
==References== | |||
{{reflist}} | |||
== Polish Newsweek article == | |||
'''Now please take a look at the present text''' of ]. The definition of the phenomenon is different. So, we are talking about a different thing. This is now an international (not solely Russian) phenomenon. There are 16 references insted of 2, and so on. ''Even if one consider this a partial recreation of an old article, it is perfectly consistent with Misplaced Pages policies to recreate an article if its initial verstion (stub!) has been deleted.'' ] 17:11, 7 April 2007 (UTC) | |||
:I am not deleting this article at this time, and I have removed the speedy tags. ] <sup>]</sup> 17:20, 7 April 2007 (UTC) | |||
* (04-03-2014) - ''Hired Russians cyber-bombing Polish internet?'' - don't know where to add it. ] (]) 21:53, 22 March 2014 (UTC) | |||
== Reasons for speedy deletion == | |||
* another Polish article has an interview with Jadwiga Rogoża, a Polish academic and expert on modern Russia, who clearly confirms the existence of web brigades. PS. also comes to mind (removed, see archives for past discussions) --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</sub> 03:06, 30 March 2014 (UTC) | |||
*First of all, nothing has changed really in the article. The only thing that changed is defenition. And again it is original research. Where and who named those hoax russian teams "internet brigades"? Biophys linked originally to the Guradian article about China, but there is no any labelling of that thing in China. Guradian uses the term "army of secret comentators". Later after the article was nominated for deletion, Biophys has added a link to Polyanskaya article "Commissars of the internet". And again we see that throughout the whole text a term "brigade" is used meaning "team". Only once the term "web-brigade" is used. Looking onto other sources - we see that there is no such term which was used by Biophys. Conclusion, the term and the name for the article is an original research by Biophys which is not found in its sources. | |||
*Second, Biophys again publishes Sections "Behaviour" and "Tactics" - they haven't changed even and are ridiculously worded. According to them, every man in the internet who supports Putin - is a member of KGB "internet team". It is stupid... They abuse directly other users in Misplaced Pages. | |||
*Third, the article in Russian Misplaced Pages directly shows in its infobox that "Internet teams" are conspiracy theory and the whole thing is based on claims of few people, namely - Polyanskaya, Krivov and Lomko - authors of the article "Commissars of the Internet. The FSB at the Computer". Nowhere on this article the information about conspiracy theory is indicated. | |||
*Fourth, like the other article it is totally dedicated to Russia. Even adding some original research comparisons with China didn't help - the article is totally about Russia. For example. original research is all that Biophys published in the Section "Recent developments" nothing is said in the sources about the subject of the article - internet teams. | |||
*Fifth, the defenition of internet teams is totally original research. Nowhere you coud find that "intenet teams" are waging state-sponcored information warfare. Indeed, the word "warfare" is totally POV, except original research. Nowhere in sources you find that this is a warfare, and is against "blogs" or "political bloggers" - I have already pointed many times that nowhere in Russian sources you could find a word "Blog". | |||
*Sixth, false translation and original research in that "internet brigades" are working against blogs. | |||
*Seventh, this article is a POV fork of the deleted article Internet Troll Squads which was twice deleted: and . Therefore the words of Kafziel do not correspond to reality. Moreover, the forst voting at AfD was rigged by Biophys and his friends canvassing outside the Misplaced Pages.] 04:16, 8 April 2007 (UTC) | |||
== Neutrality, weasel words, words to avoid == | |||
:'''Reply'''. '''1.''' Please try Google search "Internet brigades", and you will see a lot of hits. I even had to make a disambig page ]. "Internet brigades" is simply translation from Russian. '''2''' No original research here. Everything is taken from sources. I personally do not claim anything at all. '''3''' Definition of the "Internet brigades" is taken from the sources. I only try to formulate this in encyclopedic style. If someone can formulate this better - you are welcome to do it. Let's discuss it here. '''4''' There is no much difference between "blogs" and "internet forums". If you think there is, we can write everywhere "forum" instead of "blog". '''5''' I wrote that Ysopovsky claimed this to be a conspiracy theory. This is something not obvious and debatable ("pro" and "contras" can be included in the article).] 04:56, 8 April 2007 (UTC) | |||
This article is a mess, with alleged, purported and other words that try to frame the existence of the web brigades as a non-proved concent, where numerous reliable sources confirm their existence. | |||
::* 1. And what? What reliable references out of these you have published? Do they refer to Russia or China?. | |||
::* 2. Hahaha... Nothing is found in sources about state-sponcored information warfare. Give us the references and sources. You haven't done it. | |||
::* 3. It is absoultely unencyclopedic in that you haven't given any reliable references. | |||
::* 4. There is a big difference between "forum" and "blog". But let your ignorance speak for itself. | |||
::* 5. It is so obvious, that even in Russian wikipedia people inserted warning infobox. So it's important enough.] 05:02, 8 April 2007 (UTC) | |||
Sources: | |||
==Deletion of text supported by references== | |||
* 2013 Freedom on the Net ] 2013 report: p.4 "Paid progovernment commentators manipulate online discussions:... The purpose of these commentators — covertly hired by government officials, often by using public funds — is to manipulate online discussions by trying to smear the reputation of government opponents , spread propaganda, and defend government policies when the discourse becomes critical . China, Bahrain, and Russia have been at the forefront of this practice for several years," | |||
The text deleted by Vlad was supported by the following references: | |||
* Also from Freedom House: : "Kremlin allies have purchased several independent online newspapers or created their own progovernment news websites, and they are reportedly cultivating a network of bloggers and computer hackers who are paid to produce pro-Kremlin propaganda and disable independent news and blogging sites." | |||
* , 2013, ], "Have they already tried to recruit you into a 30-rouble army?" | |||
* , 2013 ], " Russian youths are being paid to shill for the government all over the Internet. " | |||
* , 2013, ] | |||
* , 2013, ] | |||
* ] December 2012 report on Russia () uses the term (p.62), through notes that "their existence and extent are unclear" | |||
* , 2012, ] (mostly based on a more reliable source, in ]) | |||
* 2012 , "A second system called "Monitor-3" sets up "methods of organising and managing virtual Internet communities of experts" and creates tasks with workflow and reporting. Based on the outcomes from the above two, the "Storm-12" software will automatically disseminate information in large social networks, being a "virtual army" that influences public opinion. Storm-12 will also collect statistics and analyse the efficiency of information sharing. " | |||
* Freedom on the Net ] 2011 report, p.9-10: "In March 2011, blogger s reportedly uncovered evidence that Russian officials were hiring users to post comments that would shape a “positive image” of the ruling United Russia party and “form a negative attitude” toward the author of a targeted blog" | |||
* {{cite book|author=Alexander Astrov|title=The Great Power (mis)management: The Russian-Georgian War and Its Implications for Global Political Order|url=http://books.google.com/books?id=rHrn0B5-or0C&pg=PA89|year=2011|publisher=Ashgate Publishing, Ltd.|isbn=978-1-4094-2468-0|page=89}}: "Russia has also used the internet for more nefarious purposes, including so-called 'web-brigades' and organized cyber-attacks" | |||
* , 2010, a brief note in ] which notes existence of web brigades as fact | |||
* , 2010, brief note in a ] publication which notes existence of web brigades as fact | |||
* , kyivpost 2010, discusses the existence of web brigades on the Ukrainian Internet | |||
* , CNN 2009, useful source but uses alleged-type language | |||
It is also worth noting that the article on the Chinese ] is written as a matter-of-fact, with no attempts by anyone to argue their existence is alleged. | |||
(1) Article by Usupovsky. He said in the end: | |||
"Огульное охаивание и нарочитая дискредитация с помощью "аргументов", сквозь которые просвечивают белые нитки, лишь способствует выталкиванию спецслужб во внеправовое пространство и толкает их к беспределу." That is exactly what I wrote in the article. | |||
Overall, I think it's high time to rewrite this article from "it's a conspiracy theory" to "it's a verified fact" POV. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</sub> 03:49, 30 March 2014 (UTC) | |||
(2) Article by Svirsky. It claims a lot of things including the following: "Для нас несомненно, что в лице интернетной агитбригады Александра Юсуповского мы имеем наиболее косную и профнепригодную группу идеологической работы российской госбезопасности в Рунете. Эти агитаторы ФСБ были неспособны на серьёзные интеллектуальные дискуссии и до публикации аналитической работы "Виртуальное око старшего брата". На появление статьи интернет-Лубянка ответила её авторам и своим оппонетам на форумах Рунета тоже по-сталински: не серьёзным спором с фактами и аргументами в этой умной, богатой наблюдениями статье, а – выстрелом грязной шрапнелью. И прямыми угрозами убийства – пока лишь виртуальными... ". | |||
By the way, it uses expression: "интернетной агитбригады". Direct translation: "Internet agitation brigade".] 16:46, 9 April 2007 (UTC) | |||
I agree, and I believe this should be included here as well: | |||
==Improper title== | |||
On top of all of the above, the article's title is unjustified. The term "Internet brigades" has no established English usage in this context and as per this a neutrally phrased ''descriptive'' title is needed. I can't be sure which one since it is not clear to me what the scope of this article is supposed to be and whether it is the author intention to present this as a conspiracy theory or a real phenomenon. In any case, the current title is unacceptable. --] 01:47, 10 April 2007 (UTC) | |||
:US journalist ] described his interviews with former senior ] officer ] who defected in the ] in 2000. According to him, | |||
==] and ]== | |||
{{Quotation|1=Sergei would send an officer to a branch of ] where he could get access to the Internet without anyone knowing his identity. The officer would post the propaganda on various websites and send it in emails to US publications and broadcasters. Some propaganda would be disguised as educational or scientific reports. ... The studies had been generated at the ] by Russian experts. The reports would be 99% accurate but would always contain a ''kernel of disinformation'' that favored Russian foreign policy. ... "Our goal was to cause dissension and unrest inside the US and anti-American feelings abroad"}} | |||
:Tretyakov did not specify the targeted web sites, but made clear they selected the sites which are most convenient for distributing the specific disinformation. During his work in ] in the end of the 1990s, one of the most frequent disinformation subjects was ]. | |||
--] (]) 00:50, 6 April 2015 (UTC) | |||
Is anything known of those guys trying to push their ] through in Misplaced Pages? This project would be - intrinsically - a good means for these people.] 18:27, 10 April 2007 (UTC) | |||
== unreferenced 'tit for tat' rationalization removed == | |||
They would be interested in this article and other russia related stuff. | |||
i have removed the utterly unreferenced counter accusation against the us, uk, and china. 10 minutes of internet searching produced not a single even vaguely credible source that suggests that such brigades exist in the usa or the uk. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 08:28, 20 May 2014 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
== Alternative name? == | |||
According to page 24. | |||
::''"web brigades”, or as they are known to some, '''the 30-Ruble Army''''' | |||
And here is an early article from 2011, using that name . Are those one and the same? --] (]) 21:52, 20 April 2015 (UTC) | |||
== Holy Hell, entire article is a who's who of US propagandists == | |||
How is this article even allowed to eve exist other than some stub on conspiracy theories, or US cyber warfare tactics? This article itself is part of propaganda. | |||
-G <small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 15:43, 2 July 2015 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
:Agreed. I'm dismantling this garbage and removing things that are only cited by advocacy groups. ]. This is ridiculous tabloid journalism and political slander. ] (]) 09:47, 10 September 2015 (UTC) | |||
== Removed tag == | |||
There was a tag at the top warning readers that this article is biased because it uses only examples from Russia. It seems pretty silly to me, since this is an article about a Russian institution. ]<sub>(])</sub> 03:07, 29 September 2015 (UTC) | |||
:Actually, I agree with that tag. Why the hell is it only about Russia? Is it implied that only Russia does this? Please read ]. America has a far more elaborate sockpuppet operation going on but let's all focus on the Russian "troll army" boogeyman. ] (]) 15:14, 3 December 2015 (UTC) | |||
::Because that's what the sources say. As you yourself point out, there are other articles for other instances of similar phenomenon. Your edit summary when you reinstated the tag is also strange - The Guardian, Atlantic, Moscow Times - are these suppose to be "tabloids" and "obscure sources"? ] (]) 07:57, 20 June 2016 (UTC) | |||
:::I am pretty sure documents leaked by Guardian about NSA and GCHQ activities had panels about organizing edits and comments online to steer them into right direction: | |||
[https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/jul/14/gchq-tools-manipulate-online-information-leak The documents – which were published on First Look Media with accompanying analysis from Glenn Greenwald – disclose a range of GCHQ "effects" programs aimed at tracking targets, spreading information, and manipulating online debates and statistics. | |||
Among the programs revealed in the document are: | |||
• GATEWAY: the "ability to artificially increase traffic to a website". | |||
• CLEAN SWEEP which "masquerade Facebook wall posts for individuals or entire countries". | |||
• SCRAPHEAP CHALLENGE for "perfect spoofing of emails from BlackBerry targets". | |||
• UNDERPASS to "change outcome of online polls". | |||
• SPRING BISHOP to find "private photos of targets on Facebook". | |||
The document also details a range of programs designed to collect and store public postings from Facebook, Twitter, LinkedIn and Google+, and to make automated postings on several of the social networks. | |||
Capabilities to boost views of YouTube videos, or to boost the circulation of particular messages are also detailed]--] (]) 13:39, 20 June 2016 (UTC) | |||
And more here, with direct photos of panels discussing manipulating online forums by western agents--] (]) 13:51, 20 June 2016 (UTC) | |||
:None of these sources discuss "web brigades". They may be useful in some other article but not this one. And at best this is just typical ''whataboutism''.] (]) 14:32, 20 June 2016 (UTC) | |||
:Basically you would need a source which explicitly states that the activities of British intelligence are "similar" to the topic of this article. You can't draw that conclusion yourself.] (]) 14:37, 20 June 2016 (UTC) | |||
No, not really I don't. You just need to find similar activities. Such actions are carried out by several countries. Do you for example deny that USA and UK intelligence operations manipulate online forums and opinions as above sources reveal? Describing Russian actions in limbo is absolutely wrong, as it gives impression that only Russia does it. A brief background should be enough. | |||
--] (]) 14:49, 20 June 2016 (UTC) | |||
::Yes, you actually do. Please read ].] (]) 00:11, 21 June 2016 (UTC) | |||
:::I would welcome if you would present a reasonable argument, instead of throwing acronyms and wikilinks around and pretending they support your position, which they do not.--] (]) 23:31, 21 June 2016 (UTC) | |||
::::As a Misplaced Pages editor, it is your responsibility to become familiar with Misplaced Pages policies, especially when you are cordially directed towards those policies which are most relevant. So, please read ]. The "SYNTH" is short for "synthesis". The sources you added do not discuss the topic of this article so including them creates false equivalence, a potentially misleading context created not by sources but by Misplaced Pages editors (you) and a POV problem. "POV" is short for "point of view".] (]) 00:17, 22 June 2016 (UTC) | |||
::::Also, you really should make sure that the sources even support the text being added.] (]) 01:01, 22 June 2016 (UTC) | |||
:These guys/"brigades" and the subject have nothing to do with any "intelligence operations", even though some of them could be guided by the FSB. Some of them were dispatched by Surkov; right now they are known as ]. This is Russian version of ]. Not sure they should be described primarily as "sockpuppets", even though they use multiple accounts. I would be happy to contribute here, but (un)fortunately, my time is up. ] (]) 02:33, 22 June 2016 (UTC) | |||
I think it is reasonable to keep this article on Russia. However, it is also reasonable to mention that similar activities are carried in other countries. Chinese ] for example deserves at the very least a see also, and preferably a sentence. is a reliable source for saying that similar activities are carried out by UK services (" “false flag operations” (posting material to the internet and falsely attributing it to someone else), fake victim blog posts (pretending to be a victim of the individual whose reputation they want to destroy), and posting “negative information” on various forums"). I am not sure what would be a relevant link here, but part of the sentence removed seem fine for inclusion (through we would need sources for US, Israel, and Ukraine). does not clearly suggest that this is a government-organized initiative, and we need to clearly distinguish between officially-endorsed online discourse manipulation, and unofficial, nationalistic POV pushing (like, for example, the ones we are all familiar happens on Misplaced Pages). --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</sub> 06:34, 22 June 2016 (UTC) | |||
:I did not look at this page for a long time. Yes, I think (your diff) is actually highly problematic and should be reverted as WP:SYN. Internet sockpuppetry is a very different, although related subject. This page is about anonymous political internet trolls for hire. ] (]) 13:46, 22 June 2016 (UTC) | |||
{{od}} At least one of the sources to this article mentions the context that many other nations also pay brigades of trolls to manipulate online discussions, very similar to Russia: http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/10/russias-online-comment-propaganda-army/280432/ | |||
Quote: | |||
Paid, pro-government commenters aren't a new phenomenon in Russia, and similar practices are widespread in countless countries. In their Freedom on the Net report released last week, the NGO Freedom House said the strategy has been on the rise over the past two years, and is now rampant in 22 of the 60 countries the group examined. China, Bahrain, and Russia are at the forefront of this practice, Freedom House wrote. | |||
{{ping|My very best wishes}} {{ping|Smallbones}} {{ping|Volunteer Marek}} -- does this help with the SYNTH problem? | |||
{{ping|Prinsgezinde}} {{ping|Tobby72}} {{ping|MyMoloboaccount}} {{ping|Piotrus}} -- have been advocates for including this material in the past. Of course such matters are not decided by vote totals, but by weight of policy-based arguments. I believe it's implicit, but hasn't been specifically mentioned above, that ] requires mentioning this material, especially considering it's also mentioned in the sources in the same context. Otherwise, readers might falsely conclude that only Russia is uniquely guilty of such offenses. Does anyone else agree that by WP:NPOV the material must be included? ] (]) 23:41, 29 June 2016 (UTC) | |||
:I occasionally see articles with titles like "Skyscrapers in New York" that have a tag saying that the article needs more international coverage. I just don't understand that type of reasoning. The cure of the problem is to write new articles, e.g. "Skyscrapers in Brussels." This is an article about the Web Brigades that have been identified in Russia. As far as I know there are no organizations outside of Russia called "web brigades". So please write your articles about these other organization in another article or articles. ]<sub>(])</sub> 00:54, 30 June 2016 (UTC) | |||
:I disagree with this interpretation of NPOV. There are plenty of links in the "See Also" if people want to see what other countries have done in this regard. In fact I checked out some of these for comparison. Our article on ] doesn't say "But Russia and China do it too!" Our article on ] doesn't say "But Russia and America do it too!" Each article treats each country's programs on their own. ] (]) 01:26, 30 June 2016 (UTC) | |||
::Hello {{ping|Smallbones}} and {{ping|Shock Brigade Harvester Boris}}, thank you for sharing your views. Boris, I confess I hadn't noticed the links to Operation Earnest Voice and Internet Water Army, those are very informative articles. It's correct that the article on Earnest Voice does not mention any other countries. But, the article on the Chinese water army does include an extensive section on this issue, stating that "Governmental programs of social media manipulation are found worldwide." Apparently that section was controversial in that article also, it's been tagged since 2012, and I tend to agree it's undue weight in the context -- almost TL;DR. | |||
::The example "Skyscrapers in New York" is also instructive. Wiki doesn't have an article by that exact title, but it does have ]. This article states, right in the lede, that the tallest building in New York is also "the tallest building in the Western Hemisphere, and the sixth-tallest building in the world." So the editors of that article did indeed feel that it was important to provide this context, prominently displayed. This is in addition to the list of links in the "See Also" section. Most visitors to a page will read the lede, some will read more deeply in the text, and only a few will go exploring "See Also". And no one is going to think that skyscrapers only exist in New York, but some of our readers might not understand the extent to which governments try to influence online discussions. ] (]) 04:59, 30 June 2016 (UTC) | |||
{{od}} Not meaning to presume a consensus here, but I've made a tiny little change in the wording of the sentence in the article that already describes the Freedom House report, to include the information in the quote from above. Hopefully this overcomes the objections based on wp:synth, and is consistent with the "skyscrapers in New York" example. ] (]) 19:52, 2 July 2016 (UTC) | |||
:That edit was fine.] (]) 21:09, 2 July 2016 (UTC) | |||
::Thank you {{ping|Volunteer Marek}}, it's a good feeling to find something that seems to work. ] (]) 02:07, 3 July 2016 (UTC) | |||
== American web brigades == | |||
About them...Nothing?--] (]) 13:14, 24 May 2018 (UTC) | |||
They take down my edits!! Crazy people! @ User:DieselEngineRO | |||
*Boldly moved page to "Russian" web brigades; although a couple of bows are made to other brigades, article is almost entirely focused on Russian activity. We could use a good article on the general topic of web brigades, whether state- political- or commercially-sponsored.] (]) 13:21, 24 August 2018 (UTC) | |||
:::What US web brigades? Web is owned basically by US. Anything you have, from Google to Facebook, it's all controlled by them. No counting of course, US media and CIA props other western media:Fox,CNN, ABC, and many other. Look to their attitude when it's time to talk about Venezuela, as example. So if Russia got web brigades, then what about the 77th british Brigade? While US has divisions and even armies to its services, but the problem is so missrepresented that Russia is to blame. Here in english wikipedia the US point od view is simply over any other, but this is not seen as problem, of course.] (]) 23:00, 27 February 2020 (UTC) | |||
== Examples == | |||
Have started an examples section, as a useful subhead, and as a redirect target for articles such as ].] (]) 12:57, 24 August 2018 (UTC) | |||
== Web brigades on Misplaced Pages? == | |||
Hi - I'm curious; does anybody have evidence supporting the theory that Russian web brigades are active in editing Misplaced Pages entries (especially the English-language versions) in an effort to nullify criticism of Russia or indeed divert it towards rival states? I've heard from some (non-official) sources this is a problem, but wondered if there's citeable evidence to support it? ] (]) 15:05, 3 April 2019 (UTC) | |||
: Periodically there are spikes of coordinated edits in articles on Russia, World War 2, annexation of Crimea, war in Donbass, MH17 etc where you can see the official Kremling propaganda bits being pushed. They aren't really persistent as existing Misplaced Pages review mechanisms effectively prevent such campaigns but I'm not aware of any quantitative analyses of this phenomenon. ] (]) 09:37, 28 February 2020 (UTC) | |||
:: Feel free to investigate. I wouldn't be surprised. ] (]) 12:46, 28 February 2020 (UTC) | |||
:: Well, I personally feel like parttaking in "hot" articles like Borscht or Gam-COVID-Vac, while procrastinating@work. On "coordinated" edits idea --- I read news on my homepage (Yandex's "Zen" browser has it); some news catch my attention ---> I hurry up to add some info... ] (]) 09:17, 25 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
== Is this indeed a conspiracy theory == | |||
Why is this listed as a conspiracy theory when multiple US intelligence agencies have confirmed it's veracity? https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/26/us/politics/us-cyber-command-russia.html | |||
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/13/science/putin-russia-disinformation-health-coronavirus.htmlhttps://www.theverge.com/2019/2/26/18241600/us-cyber-command-russian-troll-farm-attack-election-day-2018 | |||
Seems there is bias in claiming something that the FBI and CIA say is real is a conspiracy theory.<!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) </small> | |||
: Because it has not been admitted by Russia. Here you see the importance of official statements in international law. A country can do whatever it pleases, but as long as officially it denies doing it, it will never be an official, recognized fact, and the country can not be hold to account for it. ] (]) 10:10, 22 April 2020 (UTC) | |||
:: Hnnm, I don't think being admitted or not is a definition of a conspiracy theory. That a ] was committed by the USSR was not a conspiracy theory before USSR admitted it ~1990. Likewise, I don't see the conspiracy theory category at ], ] or such. Ps. Anyway, this unreferenced claim was added by IP: . Edit by web brigades, lol. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</sub> 05:33, 23 April 2020 (UTC) | |||
:::Its a conspiracy theory because it singles out an entire country of people as being evil. Attacks on African Americans or jews people who suffered opression, genocide, and slavery is not ok this shouldn't be either.--] (]) 21:01, 15 June 2020 (UTC) | |||
::::What is the attack? ] (]) 16:44, 10 February 2024 (UTC) | |||
== WalkAway == | |||
Question. Why does the ] not redirect here? ] (]) 16:58, 16 May 2020 (UTC) | |||
:Because it is likely ] enough to deserve a stand alone article. If you think it is not, propose it for deletion (]). --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</sub> 02:41, 17 May 2020 (UTC) | |||
== "50 Kopecks Army" listed at ] == | |||
] | |||
An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect ] and has thus listed it ]. This discussion will occur at {{slink|Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 December 18#50 Kopecks Army}} until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. <!-- from Template:RFDNote --> ] 03:31, 18 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
== NPOV? == | |||
Compare the tone of this article to that of ]. | |||
TBH, the problem isn't so much this article as it is Misplaced Pages's overall heavily slanted pro-America tone (despite our—and our mercs'—many war crimes in the last 2 decades). ] (]) 19:23, 11 March 2023 (UTC) | |||
:Interesting.. You have posted 2 comments anonymously and without meaning ] (]) 16:41, 10 February 2024 (UTC) | |||
== '''Washington web brigades''' == | |||
'''Washington Web Brigades''' | |||
Are there no online US trolls, bots or Whitehouse-bots putting out Govt sponsored Internet propaganda in Washington? | |||
Since there are no logical reasons to believe that Russia is the only nation carrying out Internet trolling, might not this article include something like the above section? <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 11:11, 11 June 2023 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
:Make a Misplaced Pages page with your heading etc with evidence you have gathered with links and verifyable source's etc ] (]) 19:55, 31 October 2023 (UTC) | |||
:You may want to read other sections of Misplaced Pages first if you are interested in US American war crimes. Greetings to Russia from Europe :) ] (]) 16:39, 10 February 2024 (UTC) | |||
== Update of relationship to reflect recent events == | |||
While “Kremlin trolls are closely tied to the Internet Research Agency, a Saint Petersburg-based company run by Yevgeny Prigozhin, who is a close ally to Vladimir Putin and head of the mercenary Wagner Group, known for committing war crimes.” Was certainly true in the recent past the relations described between Putin and Prigozhin have changed significantly. Given the degradation in relations between the two would it be appropriate to change the “is” in this the sentence above to a “was”? ] (]) 21:10, 11 July 2023 (UTC) |
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Conspiracy theory
Per this edit, please bring a reliable source which says that the web brigade theory is a conspiracy theory. --Defender of torch (talk) 17:18, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
- Did you even try to read past the second phrase of this article?Anonimu (talk) 17:30, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
- Well, that one source is not enough to dismiss the theory as conspiracy. That is an opinion piece, and Gleb Pavlovsky is not a neutral source as he is adviser of a head of the president's administration . If there are other third party neutral reliable sources dismiss this theory, then it will be ok, but a partisan source like Pavlovsky is not enough. --Defender of torch (talk) 17:37, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
- that's the old version, and it quotes a lot of sources, only one of which claims this to be a "conspiracy theory".Biophys (talk) 22:19, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
- Well, that one source is not enough to dismiss the theory as conspiracy. That is an opinion piece, and Gleb Pavlovsky is not a neutral source as he is adviser of a head of the president's administration . If there are other third party neutral reliable sources dismiss this theory, then it will be ok, but a partisan source like Pavlovsky is not enough. --Defender of torch (talk) 17:37, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
Operation earnest voice
Why is this here and not under its own article? The WL currently redirects to a company page with less information than is here. Will fork. a13ean (talk) 20:56, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
I think this thing well deserves an article. I added it here, because it's a web-brigade, but please feel free to start a new one. 89.178.119.71 (talk) 09:27, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
Other examples
What happened to the Chinese web brigades that used to be mentioned in this article? This used to be an article about the phenomenon of state-sponsored internet astroturfing as a whole, but now there seems to be no article about this topic on Misplaced Pages. Why not? There's a huge difference between a sockpuppet made by someone just to troll and organized operations for propaganda purposes. The astroturfing article is pretty short and mostly talks about corporate examples.
Here's a recent article that purports to be someone who worked on a pro-Israel astroturfing campaign, by the way: Is that something that can be included somewhere on Misplaced Pages? Esn (talk) 21:01, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, I think this article is in a poor condition and needs a lot of improvements. But I am a little afraid that if I resume editing here, this might start a battleground or something. But I can try and see what happens... My very best wishes (talk) 21:24, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
- Those are now mentioned at State-sponsored Internet sockpuppetry, while this article is about its Russian variant, which is dubbed "web brigades"--Elysans (talk) 07:55, 20 April 2015 (UTC)
Astroturfing, web brigades, Operation Earnest Voice, 50 Cent Party, Internet Water Army, etc.
This section is meant to be a continuation of the last two sections, which were related topics. I did a quick search of the web and our astroturfing article (and a more thorough reading of this article) and could not find any evidence that "web brigades" is used outside Misplaced Pages as a generic term for state-sponsored internet astroturfing; it appears to be used only to describe Russian state-sponsored astroturfing. So I decided to be bold and split the content on Operation Earnest Voice to a new article.
In doing so, I also reorganized the Operation Earnest Voice article without adding or removing content with the following exceptions (I hope): I added links to the See also section, and added content to the leads of both articles identifying them as examples of astroturfing (they still need cleanup and work).
IMO, until "web brigades" (or Internet Water Armies, etc.) become accepted as the generic term for state-sponsored astroturfing, all these examples (including the Israeli example mentioned above) should be separate articles. Also, each of these articles should mention astroturfing prominently in the lead, and mention the other examples in the See also section (or perhaps as a sentence in the article?).
This seemed the obvious thing to do to me. I realize that these are controversial topics, so if consensus goes against me, I'm happy do undue my edits as necessary.--Wikimedes (talk) 23:27, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
- I agree with your edit and your comment above in general. "Operation Earnest Voice" obviously does not belong here. My very best wishes (talk) 03:11, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
- Okay, so since the main point of contention was about the name, I've created an article with a neutral, descriptive name about all of these programs: State-sponsored internet sockpuppetry. Esn (talk) 08:51, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
Polish Newsweek article
- Wynajęci Rosjanie cyber-bombardują polski internet? (04-03-2014) - Hired Russians cyber-bombing Polish internet? - don't know where to add it. pwjb (talk) 21:53, 22 March 2014 (UTC)
- another Polish article has an interview with Jadwiga Rogoża, a Polish academic and expert on modern Russia, who clearly confirms the existence of web brigades. PS. This also comes to mind (removed, see archives for past discussions) --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 03:06, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
Neutrality, weasel words, words to avoid
This article is a mess, with alleged, purported and other words that try to frame the existence of the web brigades as a non-proved concent, where numerous reliable sources confirm their existence.
Sources:
- 2013 Freedom on the Net Freedom House 2013 report: p.4 "Paid progovernment commentators manipulate online discussions:... The purpose of these commentators — covertly hired by government officials, often by using public funds — is to manipulate online discussions by trying to smear the reputation of government opponents , spread propaganda, and defend government policies when the discourse becomes critical . China, Bahrain, and Russia have been at the forefront of this practice for several years,"
- Also from Freedom House: : "Kremlin allies have purchased several independent online newspapers or created their own progovernment news websites, and they are reportedly cultivating a network of bloggers and computer hackers who are paid to produce pro-Kremlin propaganda and disable independent news and blogging sites."
- , 2013, The Lithuania Tribune, "Have they already tried to recruit you into a 30-rouble army?"
- , 2013 The Week, " Russian youths are being paid to shill for the government all over the Internet. "
- Russia's Online-Comment Propaganda Army, 2013, The Atlantic
- Internet Troll Operation Uncovered in St. Petersburg, 2013, The St. Petersburg Times
- Swedish Defence Research Agency December 2012 report on Russia () uses the term (p.62), through notes that "their existence and extent are unclear"
- Hackers expose Putin's army of internet trolls, 2012, Avaaz (mostly based on a more reliable source, in The Guardian)
- 2012 Russia creates social media propaganda systems, "A second system called "Monitor-3" sets up "methods of organising and managing virtual Internet communities of experts" and creates tasks with workflow and reporting. Based on the outcomes from the above two, the "Storm-12" software will automatically disseminate information in large social networks, being a "virtual army" that influences public opinion. Storm-12 will also collect statistics and analyse the efficiency of information sharing. "
- Freedom on the Net Freedom House 2011 report, p.9-10: "In March 2011, blogger s reportedly uncovered evidence that Russian officials were hiring users to post comments that would shape a “positive image” of the ruling United Russia party and “form a negative attitude” toward the author of a targeted blog"
- Alexander Astrov (2011). The Great Power (mis)management: The Russian-Georgian War and Its Implications for Global Political Order. Ashgate Publishing, Ltd. p. 89. ISBN 978-1-4094-2468-0.: "Russia has also used the internet for more nefarious purposes, including so-called 'web-brigades' and organized cyber-attacks"
- , 2010, a brief note in European Council on Foreign Relations which notes existence of web brigades as fact
- , 2010, brief note in a Hoover Institute publication which notes existence of web brigades as fact
- , kyivpost 2010, discusses the existence of web brigades on the Ukrainian Internet
- , CNN 2009, useful source but uses alleged-type language
It is also worth noting that the article on the Chinese 50 Cent Party is written as a matter-of-fact, with no attempts by anyone to argue their existence is alleged.
Overall, I think it's high time to rewrite this article from "it's a conspiracy theory" to "it's a verified fact" POV. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 03:49, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
I agree, and I believe this should be included here as well:
- US journalist Pete Earley described his interviews with former senior Russian intelligence officer Sergei Tretyakov who defected in the United States in 2000. According to him,
Sergei would send an officer to a branch of New York Public Library where he could get access to the Internet without anyone knowing his identity. The officer would post the propaganda on various websites and send it in emails to US publications and broadcasters. Some propaganda would be disguised as educational or scientific reports. ... The studies had been generated at the Center by Russian experts. The reports would be 99% accurate but would always contain a kernel of disinformation that favored Russian foreign policy. ... "Our goal was to cause dissension and unrest inside the US and anti-American feelings abroad"
- Tretyakov did not specify the targeted web sites, but made clear they selected the sites which are most convenient for distributing the specific disinformation. During his work in New York in the end of the 1990s, one of the most frequent disinformation subjects was War in Chechnya.
--Elysans (talk) 00:50, 6 April 2015 (UTC)
unreferenced 'tit for tat' rationalization removed
i have removed the utterly unreferenced counter accusation against the us, uk, and china. 10 minutes of internet searching produced not a single even vaguely credible source that suggests that such brigades exist in the usa or the uk. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.30.245.96 (talk) 08:28, 20 May 2014 (UTC)
Alternative name?
- "web brigades”, or as they are known to some, the 30-Ruble Army
And here is an early article from 2011, using that name 30 ruble army. Are those one and the same? --Elysans (talk) 21:52, 20 April 2015 (UTC)
Holy Hell, entire article is a who's who of US propagandists
How is this article even allowed to eve exist other than some stub on conspiracy theories, or US cyber warfare tactics? This article itself is part of propaganda.
-G — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.88.204.153 (talk) 15:43, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
- Agreed. I'm dismantling this garbage and removing things that are only cited by advocacy groups. WIKIPEDIA IS NOT A SOAPBOX. This is ridiculous tabloid journalism and political slander. Bataaf van Oranje (talk) 09:47, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
Removed tag
There was a tag at the top warning readers that this article is biased because it uses only examples from Russia. It seems pretty silly to me, since this is an article about a Russian institution. Smallbones(smalltalk) 03:07, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
- Actually, I agree with that tag. Why the hell is it only about Russia? Is it implied that only Russia does this? Please read Operation Earnest Voice. America has a far more elaborate sockpuppet operation going on but let's all focus on the Russian "troll army" boogeyman. Bataaf van Oranje (talk) 15:14, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
- Because that's what the sources say. As you yourself point out, there are other articles for other instances of similar phenomenon. Your edit summary when you reinstated the tag is also strange - The Guardian, Atlantic, Moscow Times - are these suppose to be "tabloids" and "obscure sources"? Volunteer Marek (talk) 07:57, 20 June 2016 (UTC)
- I am pretty sure documents leaked by Guardian about NSA and GCHQ activities had panels about organizing edits and comments online to steer them into right direction:
[https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/jul/14/gchq-tools-manipulate-online-information-leak The documents – which were published on First Look Media with accompanying analysis from Glenn Greenwald – disclose a range of GCHQ "effects" programs aimed at tracking targets, spreading information, and manipulating online debates and statistics.
Among the programs revealed in the document are: • GATEWAY: the "ability to artificially increase traffic to a website".
• CLEAN SWEEP which "masquerade Facebook wall posts for individuals or entire countries".
• SCRAPHEAP CHALLENGE for "perfect spoofing of emails from BlackBerry targets".
• UNDERPASS to "change outcome of online polls".
• SPRING BISHOP to find "private photos of targets on Facebook".
The document also details a range of programs designed to collect and store public postings from Facebook, Twitter, LinkedIn and Google+, and to make automated postings on several of the social networks.
Capabilities to boost views of YouTube videos, or to boost the circulation of particular messages are also detailed]--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 13:39, 20 June 2016 (UTC)
And more here, with direct photos of panels discussing manipulating online forums by western agents--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 13:51, 20 June 2016 (UTC)
- None of these sources discuss "web brigades". They may be useful in some other article but not this one. And at best this is just typical whataboutism.Volunteer Marek (talk) 14:32, 20 June 2016 (UTC)
- Basically you would need a source which explicitly states that the activities of British intelligence are "similar" to the topic of this article. You can't draw that conclusion yourself.Volunteer Marek (talk) 14:37, 20 June 2016 (UTC)
No, not really I don't. You just need to find similar activities. Such actions are carried out by several countries. Do you for example deny that USA and UK intelligence operations manipulate online forums and opinions as above sources reveal? Describing Russian actions in limbo is absolutely wrong, as it gives impression that only Russia does it. A brief background should be enough. --MyMoloboaccount (talk) 14:49, 20 June 2016 (UTC)
- Yes, you actually do. Please read WP:SYNTH.Volunteer Marek (talk) 00:11, 21 June 2016 (UTC)
- I would welcome if you would present a reasonable argument, instead of throwing acronyms and wikilinks around and pretending they support your position, which they do not.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 23:31, 21 June 2016 (UTC)
- As a Misplaced Pages editor, it is your responsibility to become familiar with Misplaced Pages policies, especially when you are cordially directed towards those policies which are most relevant. So, please read WP:SYNTH. The "SYNTH" is short for "synthesis". The sources you added do not discuss the topic of this article so including them creates false equivalence, a potentially misleading context created not by sources but by Misplaced Pages editors (you) and a POV problem. "POV" is short for "point of view".Volunteer Marek (talk) 00:17, 22 June 2016 (UTC)
- Also, you really should make sure that the sources even support the text being added.Volunteer Marek (talk) 01:01, 22 June 2016 (UTC)
- I would welcome if you would present a reasonable argument, instead of throwing acronyms and wikilinks around and pretending they support your position, which they do not.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 23:31, 21 June 2016 (UTC)
- Yes, you actually do. Please read WP:SYNTH.Volunteer Marek (talk) 00:11, 21 June 2016 (UTC)
- These guys/"brigades" and the subject have nothing to do with any "intelligence operations", even though some of them could be guided by the FSB. Some of them were dispatched by Surkov; right now they are known as Trolls from Olgino. This is Russian version of 50 Cent Party. Not sure they should be described primarily as "sockpuppets", even though they use multiple accounts. I would be happy to contribute here, but (un)fortunately, my time is up. My very best wishes (talk) 02:33, 22 June 2016 (UTC)
I think it is reasonable to keep this article on Russia. However, it is also reasonable to mention that similar activities are carried in other countries. Chinese 50 Cent Party for example deserves at the very least a see also, and preferably a sentence. is a reliable source for saying that similar activities are carried out by UK services (" “false flag operations” (posting material to the internet and falsely attributing it to someone else), fake victim blog posts (pretending to be a victim of the individual whose reputation they want to destroy), and posting “negative information” on various forums"). I am not sure what would be a relevant link here, but part of the sentence removed here seem fine for inclusion (through we would need sources for US, Israel, and Ukraine). does not clearly suggest that this is a government-organized initiative, and we need to clearly distinguish between officially-endorsed online discourse manipulation, and unofficial, nationalistic POV pushing (like, for example, the ones we are all familiar happens on Misplaced Pages). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 06:34, 22 June 2016 (UTC)
- I did not look at this page for a long time. Yes, I think this change by M. (your diff) is actually highly problematic and should be reverted as WP:SYN. Internet sockpuppetry is a very different, although related subject. This page is about anonymous political internet trolls for hire. My very best wishes (talk) 13:46, 22 June 2016 (UTC)
At least one of the sources to this article mentions the context that many other nations also pay brigades of trolls to manipulate online discussions, very similar to Russia: http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/10/russias-online-comment-propaganda-army/280432/
Quote:
Paid, pro-government commenters aren't a new phenomenon in Russia, and similar practices are widespread in countless countries. In their Freedom on the Net report released last week, the NGO Freedom House said the strategy has been on the rise over the past two years, and is now rampant in 22 of the 60 countries the group examined. China, Bahrain, and Russia are at the forefront of this practice, Freedom House wrote.
@My very best wishes: @Smallbones: @Volunteer Marek: -- does this help with the SYNTH problem?
@Prinsgezinde: @Tobby72: @MyMoloboaccount: @Piotrus: -- have been advocates for including this material in the past. Of course such matters are not decided by vote totals, but by weight of policy-based arguments. I believe it's implicit, but hasn't been specifically mentioned above, that WP:NPOV requires mentioning this material, especially considering it's also mentioned in the sources in the same context. Otherwise, readers might falsely conclude that only Russia is uniquely guilty of such offenses. Does anyone else agree that by WP:NPOV the material must be included? JerryRussell (talk) 23:41, 29 June 2016 (UTC)
- I occasionally see articles with titles like "Skyscrapers in New York" that have a tag saying that the article needs more international coverage. I just don't understand that type of reasoning. The cure of the problem is to write new articles, e.g. "Skyscrapers in Brussels." This is an article about the Web Brigades that have been identified in Russia. As far as I know there are no organizations outside of Russia called "web brigades". So please write your articles about these other organization in another article or articles. Smallbones(smalltalk) 00:54, 30 June 2016 (UTC)
- I disagree with this interpretation of NPOV. There are plenty of links in the "See Also" if people want to see what other countries have done in this regard. In fact I checked out some of these for comparison. Our article on Operation Earnest Voice doesn't say "But Russia and China do it too!" Our article on Internet Water Army doesn't say "But Russia and America do it too!" Each article treats each country's programs on their own. Shock Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 01:26, 30 June 2016 (UTC)
- Hello @Smallbones: and @Shock Brigade Harvester Boris:, thank you for sharing your views. Boris, I confess I hadn't noticed the links to Operation Earnest Voice and Internet Water Army, those are very informative articles. It's correct that the article on Earnest Voice does not mention any other countries. But, the article on the Chinese water army does include an extensive section on this issue, stating that "Governmental programs of social media manipulation are found worldwide." Apparently that section was controversial in that article also, it's been tagged since 2012, and I tend to agree it's undue weight in the context -- almost TL;DR.
- The example "Skyscrapers in New York" is also instructive. Wiki doesn't have an article by that exact title, but it does have List of tallest buildings in New York City. This article states, right in the lede, that the tallest building in New York is also "the tallest building in the Western Hemisphere, and the sixth-tallest building in the world." So the editors of that article did indeed feel that it was important to provide this context, prominently displayed. This is in addition to the list of links in the "See Also" section. Most visitors to a page will read the lede, some will read more deeply in the text, and only a few will go exploring "See Also". And no one is going to think that skyscrapers only exist in New York, but some of our readers might not understand the extent to which governments try to influence online discussions. JerryRussell (talk) 04:59, 30 June 2016 (UTC)
Not meaning to presume a consensus here, but I've made a tiny little change in the wording of the sentence in the article that already describes the Freedom House report, to include the information in the quote from above. Hopefully this overcomes the objections based on wp:synth, and is consistent with the "skyscrapers in New York" example. JerryRussell (talk) 19:52, 2 July 2016 (UTC)
- That edit was fine.Volunteer Marek (talk) 21:09, 2 July 2016 (UTC)
- Thank you @Volunteer Marek:, it's a good feeling to find something that seems to work. JerryRussell (talk) 02:07, 3 July 2016 (UTC)
American web brigades
About them...Nothing?--DieselEngineRO (talk) 13:14, 24 May 2018 (UTC) They take down my edits!! Crazy people! @ User:DieselEngineRO
- Boldly moved page to "Russian" web brigades; although a couple of bows are made to other brigades, article is almost entirely focused on Russian activity. We could use a good article on the general topic of web brigades, whether state- political- or commercially-sponsored.E.M.Gregory (talk) 13:21, 24 August 2018 (UTC)
- What US web brigades? Web is owned basically by US. Anything you have, from Google to Facebook, it's all controlled by them. No counting of course, US media and CIA props other western media:Fox,CNN, ABC, and many other. Look to their attitude when it's time to talk about Venezuela, as example. So if Russia got web brigades, then what about the 77th british Brigade? While US has divisions and even armies to its services, but the problem is so missrepresented that Russia is to blame. Here in english wikipedia the US point od view is simply over any other, but this is not seen as problem, of course.62.11.3.98 (talk) 23:00, 27 February 2020 (UTC)
Examples
Have started an examples section, as a useful subhead, and as a redirect target for articles such as Walkaway (political movement).E.M.Gregory (talk) 12:57, 24 August 2018 (UTC)
Web brigades on Misplaced Pages?
Hi - I'm curious; does anybody have evidence supporting the theory that Russian web brigades are active in editing Misplaced Pages entries (especially the English-language versions) in an effort to nullify criticism of Russia or indeed divert it towards rival states? I've heard from some (non-official) sources this is a problem, but wondered if there's citeable evidence to support it? 148.64.28.93 (talk) 15:05, 3 April 2019 (UTC)
- Periodically there are spikes of coordinated edits in articles on Russia, World War 2, annexation of Crimea, war in Donbass, MH17 etc where you can see the official Kremling propaganda bits being pushed. They aren't really persistent as existing Misplaced Pages review mechanisms effectively prevent such campaigns but I'm not aware of any quantitative analyses of this phenomenon. Cloud200 (talk) 09:37, 28 February 2020 (UTC)
- Feel free to investigate. I wouldn't be surprised. Debresser (talk) 12:46, 28 February 2020 (UTC)
- Well, I personally feel like parttaking in "hot" articles like Borscht or Gam-COVID-Vac, while procrastinating@work. On "coordinated" edits idea --- I read news on my homepage (Yandex's "Zen" browser has it); some news catch my attention ---> I hurry up to add some info... Uchyot (talk) 09:17, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
Is this indeed a conspiracy theory
Why is this listed as a conspiracy theory when multiple US intelligence agencies have confirmed it's veracity? https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/26/us/politics/us-cyber-command-russia.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/13/science/putin-russia-disinformation-health-coronavirus.htmlhttps://www.theverge.com/2019/2/26/18241600/us-cyber-command-russian-troll-farm-attack-election-day-2018
Seems there is bias in claiming something that the FBI and CIA say is real is a conspiracy theory.— Preceding unsigned comment added by House Tules (talk • contribs)
- Because it has not been admitted by Russia. Here you see the importance of official statements in international law. A country can do whatever it pleases, but as long as officially it denies doing it, it will never be an official, recognized fact, and the country can not be hold to account for it. Debresser (talk) 10:10, 22 April 2020 (UTC)
- Hnnm, I don't think being admitted or not is a definition of a conspiracy theory. That a Katyn massacre was committed by the USSR was not a conspiracy theory before USSR admitted it ~1990. Likewise, I don't see the conspiracy theory category at Chinese cyberwarfare, List of CIA controversies or such. Ps. Anyway, this unreferenced claim was added by IP: . Edit by web brigades, lol. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 05:33, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
- Its a conspiracy theory because it singles out an entire country of people as being evil. Attacks on African Americans or jews people who suffered opression, genocide, and slavery is not ok this shouldn't be either.--Fruitloop11 (talk) 21:01, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
- What is the attack? Miezemaya (talk) 16:44, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
- Its a conspiracy theory because it singles out an entire country of people as being evil. Attacks on African Americans or jews people who suffered opression, genocide, and slavery is not ok this shouldn't be either.--Fruitloop11 (talk) 21:01, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
- Hnnm, I don't think being admitted or not is a definition of a conspiracy theory. That a Katyn massacre was committed by the USSR was not a conspiracy theory before USSR admitted it ~1990. Likewise, I don't see the conspiracy theory category at Chinese cyberwarfare, List of CIA controversies or such. Ps. Anyway, this unreferenced claim was added by IP: . Edit by web brigades, lol. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 05:33, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
WalkAway
Question. Why does the WalkAway campaign not redirect here? 46.97.170.78 (talk) 16:58, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
- Because it is likely notable enough to deserve a stand alone article. If you think it is not, propose it for deletion (WP:AFD). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 02:41, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
"50 Kopecks Army" listed at Redirects for discussion
An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect 50 Kopecks Army and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 December 18 § 50 Kopecks Army until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. MB 03:31, 18 December 2022 (UTC)
NPOV?
Compare the tone of this article to that of Blackwater (company). TBH, the problem isn't so much this article as it is Misplaced Pages's overall heavily slanted pro-America tone (despite our—and our mercs'—many war crimes in the last 2 decades). 2604:2D80:DE09:D400:44A0:9A27:561A:4B46 (talk) 19:23, 11 March 2023 (UTC)
- Interesting.. You have posted 2 comments anonymously and without meaning Miezemaya (talk) 16:41, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
Washington web brigades
Washington Web Brigades
Are there no online US trolls, bots or Whitehouse-bots putting out Govt sponsored Internet propaganda in Washington?
Since there are no logical reasons to believe that Russia is the only nation carrying out Internet trolling, might not this article include something like the above section? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.151.2.103 (talk) 11:11, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
- Make a Misplaced Pages page with your heading etc with evidence you have gathered with links and verifyable source's etc MrHugepiles (talk) 19:55, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
- You may want to read other sections of Misplaced Pages first if you are interested in US American war crimes. Greetings to Russia from Europe :) Miezemaya (talk) 16:39, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
Update of relationship to reflect recent events
While “Kremlin trolls are closely tied to the Internet Research Agency, a Saint Petersburg-based company run by Yevgeny Prigozhin, who is a close ally to Vladimir Putin and head of the mercenary Wagner Group, known for committing war crimes.” Was certainly true in the recent past the relations described between Putin and Prigozhin have changed significantly. Given the degradation in relations between the two would it be appropriate to change the “is” in this the sentence above to a “was”? FlamingCat (talk) 21:10, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
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