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== Atheist Symbols ==
== the '''Positive vs. negative''' paragraph is incomplete and ''']ed''' ==
Even positive atheism is negation based. Atheism has a Greek etymology. In English it would be non-godism which is a negation based term; and Richard Dawkins and many neoatheists overfocus on atheism as an affirmative negation; but it is not a purely affirmative term like ]. If you hate something and you are self-aware your fist term for self-definition isn't anti-so-and-so/ anti-what-I-hate. A conscious evolved worldview becomes affirmative. The deepest atheistic synonym is '''metaphysical logicism''' which means '''the fundamental principles of substantiality/existence = metaphysics is logic''' = the axiomatics of actual existence (not of mythology and mistakes) is logic/ logical procedures/ logical causal connectome without logical gaps ] of the future, because now we have many things we don't know... and the physical axiomatics seems to be an open axiomatic system but still quantum foundations can evolve as A LOGICAL AFFIRMATIVE IMPERSONAL = GODLESS field of study.


I've no problem with this atheist symbol in the Demographics section where it currently is, just not in the lead per ]. ] (]) 16:38, 3 August 2024 (UTC)
The article on '''atheism''' focuses ONLY on atheism as an affirmative negation = positive atheism, but isn't at all analytical on ] and on ]/logicalism . Mathematics is a proof system (see: John Stillwell on proof) and physics is a substantiality system. The quantum foundations doesn't have to be a system handy for general proofs of logic like mathematics which is a general proof tool. Mathematics is compatible to physics due to logic, but they do NOT have the same axiomatics/ Physics/the universe has to exist/ be substantial, thus the axiomatic prerequisites for creating a spacetime are not tautological to mathematics which is a tool of logic for general proofs. Infinite different universes with different foundations are logically possible. But mathematics is supposed to be a general tool for proofs. Mathematics doesn't have to exist. The fact that some mathematical formulas are compatible with natural phenomena doesn't mean they have the same deep = axiomatic causes. You cannot have mathematics without it's axiomatics. And you cannot have physics without its own foundations. ] is the superior thinker on analyzing these deep causes and on understanding the conditions which are the causal basis of the logical phenomena.


== The third definition in the opening ==
By rejecting or not analyzing ] and ] many old in age neoatheists harm the purely affirmative versions of atheism.


I have not read this article or the preceding Talk comments, so, if what I write here is redundant, then I apologize. But the third definition -- "the position that there are no deities" -- is ambiguous. On the one hand, a person who takes that position might insist on the truth of a negative, but to do that requires an act of faith, and few atheists are foolish enough to do that. After all, atheists are generally people who do not believe things on faith. On the other hand, I take the position that there are no deities, not as an act of faith, but because no evidence of them is known to exist. Therefore, my taking of that position is provisional, because, if evidence were discovered, I would consider altering my position. ] (]) 00:49, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
'''Metaphysical logicism''' = logicalism (blend of logicism + physicalism) is important as a term, because many (but not all) old logicists (basic logicism is '''mathematical logicism''') erroneously and without good or any explanation claim that the axiomatics = open list of axioms of mathematics is tautological to the ] which by no means is tautological. '''Metaphysical logicism''' is important as a term because it focuses on metaphysics = the fundamental principles of substantiality = wider contextual existence = spacetime = cosmos = wider existence able to be a system like the universe.
:It does ''seem'' a little ambiguous, but I can assure you it reflects the body of scholarly work on the subject. -- ] (]) 16:26, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
::The sources states that in a narrow sense it is a position. It does not matter how people come to that position as there is no one path to reach it, any more than for theism (faith, reason, evidence etc are not unique, but universal).] (]) 05:58, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
::Hi, 'believing in God' and 'believin in the existence of God' are 2 different things. Cf. my comment below. ] (]) 01:10, 21 November 2024 (UTC)
:It is not ambiguous. The below statement is a statement of opinion, not fact. In order to make this statement, you would have needed to review all of the evidence, which you certainly have not, and correctly interpreted it. You're a human being capable of misinterpreting evidence. It is also a statement of faith, you're putting your faith exclusively in your own five senses since you personally have not experienced a deity with those senses.
:"I take the position that there are no deities, not as an act of faith, but because no evidence of them is known to exist." ] (]) 17:37, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
::Hello,
::Believers do not believe in god because they think there is compelling evidence that god or gods exist. That's not what 'believing in god' (or gods) mean.
::I noticed that dictionary definitions sometimes defined atheism as the lack of belief in the existence of God and others as the lack of belief in the existence of god of Gods.
::The 'existence'-definition is misleading. The belief is not in the existence but 'in god'.
::I keep reading sterile exchanges between theists and atheists about whether god exists or not, with atheists coming up with the no-evidence argument. These debates are restricted to the US to my knowledge. In the rest of the world we know that you don't convince someone into believing in god or stop believing in god. You don't talk someone into being in love or stop being love.
::What you can show the person is that their claim that they are in love is fake.
::Not a believer myself, not preaching my relgion. ] (]) 01:08, 21 November 2024 (UTC)
{{hat|reason=Collapsing off-topic discussion per ]}}
::I am not interested in editing this article, so feel free to ignore this comment, but the third definition ''is'' ambiguous, for the reason I stated; it doesn't merely ''seem'' ambiguous. And it is unequivocally ambiguous, not just "a little ambiguous." If the body of scholarly work on the subject overlooks or writes off this ambiguity (if that's what you mean), then so much the worse for the body of scholarly work on the subject. ] (]) 16:57, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
:::The third definition is strong or ] as in "there is no ] and no divinity either". It is true it can be provisional, as in "there is no divinity unless one becomes evident". Nevertheless, positive atheism is notable hence its inclusion in the lede. Also the degree it's provisional or not largely depends on context and individual assessments which falls a bit outside its scope, although I am reminded of Richard Dawkins' ]. ] (]) 18:40, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
::::I agree with everything you say here, but I want to emphasize that the difference between a strong atheist (in Dawkins' terms) and a provisional one is crucial, because the former, like a strong theist, believes irrationally, as a matter of faith, and deserves no more respect a strong theist who claims to know that a god exists.
::::I disagree with Dawkins' description of the strongest atheist after that a "strong atheist." It is "''De facto'' atheist. Very low probability, but short of zero. 'I don't know for certain but I think God is very improbable, and I live my life on the assumption that he is not there.'" I consider myself a stronger atheist than that, without being a "strong atheist" in Dawkins' sense. That is because I would not say that I don't know for certain that a god doesn't exist. I would say that nobody ''can'' know for certain. But I have no more doubt about the non-existence of a god than I do about the non-existence of flying pigs, while I acknowledge that I can't "know" the non-existence of either.
::::I concede that I may be conflating logic and feelings here. Logically, I acknowledge the possibility that a god exists, but I do not ''feel'' that there is any possibility. The person who uses Dawkins' phrase, "I don't know for certain," sounds as though he ''feels'' that there is a possibility, however close to zero, that a god exists. How's that for nitpicking? ] (]) 02:28, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
:::::See ]. It makes a clear distinction between knowing (we do not or cannot know) and not believing because we do not have a belief in a god (or a divinity) and we may believe there is no god (provisionally on account of one's agnosticism). ] (]) 04:33, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
{{hab}}

== Removal of sadness/happiness from the citation. ==

The headline of the citation is "Are atheists sadder but wiser?" Why would one aspect of the article be included but not the studies related to religious people are happier? It is cherry-picking from sources.

https://skepticalinquirer.org/2020/03/are-atheists-sadder-but-wiser/

The health benefits of religious belief is well-documented. I don't understand why it would be scrubbed from this article.

https://www.deseret.com/opinion/2024/03/23/religion-effect-on-happiness/#:~:text=In%20the%20analysis%20in%20this,while%20only%201%25%20reported%20that ] (]) 12:26, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

:The study says there is a statistically significant (in otherwords, big enough to be measurable) correlation between religious belief and self-reported happiness. The study does ''not'' say atheists are sadder, which is merely the ] title. I guarantee the study did not ask atheists how sad they were, which means it would be incorrect to make that claim in this article. -- ] (]) 13:30, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
::Sure. We can make it “less happy” or “not as happy.” ] (]) 22:30, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
:::You are missing the point entirely. While it positively states people with religious belief are happier, it does '''''not''''' positively state that atheists are less happy or not as happy. That would technically be ].
:::Imagine a report that stated two people (persons A and B) held 100 oranges between them, but person A held 51 of those oranges. What you want to do is say that person B had 49 oranges ''but the report does not explicitly state that'' and it would be original research to do so. You and I know that person B had 49 oranges, but we cannot say so. Person A's Misplaced Pages article can confidently state "person A had 51 oranges" and provide a citation, but because the reference does not say person B had 49 oranges you ''cannot even mention it'' in person B's Misplaced Pages article. Do you see what I'm getting at? It doesn't belong in this article. -- ] (]) 15:01, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
::::Then the converse would be true and the whole citation should be taken out. That's cherry picking the data. ] (]) 18:49, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
::::<s>It's a pity that there had to be an edit-war before this discussion started.</s> I think that ] is taking an extreme view here. Of course we can say in the example that person B had 49 oranges - that's simple arithmetic, not any kind of research, original or not. Whether religious people or atheists are sadder than the others has no connection to the truth value of any statements that they make. ] (]) 13:09, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
:::::The Skeptical Inquirer citation relied upon by the OP's addition is behind a paywall and has thus far not been explicitly quoted here in support of the addition. Nor is it clear whether it is a single study under consideration or whether it is one of many and what the sampled population(s) are and any caveats, such as confounding variables to consider such as the fact that often agnostic atheists do not even identify as atheists due to stigmatization and discrimination in some communities. Also, Caleb Henshaw's piece compares ] or nonreligious nones to the religious, which is a problem for there are far fewer irreligious atheists than the many irreligious theists, thus it's not at all specific enough to whether atheists are less happy. Perhaps that may not matter, but I don't know. ] (]) 15:07, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
:::::@] It absolutely ''is'' original research when you extrapolate, whether or not it is simple arithmetic. And I haven't been part of any edit war. -- ] (]) 18:11, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
::::::See ], part of ]. And I did not say that you were involved in edit warring - that comment was directed at {{U|PerseusMeredith}} and whoever I thought he was edit-warring against - but I see now that I was wrong so withdraw that sentence. ] (]) 19:28, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
:::::::It still fails ] because it is not a "routine" calculation. The survey claims a percentage level of happiness, but "sadness" is not the opposite of "happiness" just as "cold" is not the opposite of "hot" because other states exists, so any calculation is unsupported and ''certainly'' doesn't have a consensus agreement. -- ] (]) 15:43, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
::::::::You are putting words into my mouth. I made no claim about sadness or happiness, but only about your example, which was a bad one. ] (]) 15:55, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::Nevertheless, you still my interpretation of ] as "extreme" simply because I was trying to come up with an easy-to-understand example of why the original poster's point wasn't valid. That does not seem like an assumption of good faith. Anyway, the point I was trying to make is that the OP was trying to claim a study saying religious people are happier automatically meant that atheists are sadder. Despite the click-baity title of the reference that clearly isn't the case; therefore, the source wasn't used as described. -- ] (]) 12:54, 17 September 2024 (UTC)
::::::::::"So, according to the evidence, atheism appears to be a choice to be sadder but wiser, but, in fact, we are not justified in drawing that conclusion. It is important to recognize that all the evidence cited in this column is correlational, which means we cannot identify what causes any of these relationships—only that certain variables travel together."
::::::::::It's not just a "click bait" title. It's the premise of the whole article. The data clearly shows the more frequently you attend religious services, the more likely you are to indicate you are happy. The basic logic that the author utilizes is that atheists, generally speaking, aren't going to be as likely to attend weekly church services.
::::::::::You can't have it both ways. The whole thing should come out since it is correlational or the second part of the article should be included. ] (]) 20:15, 17 September 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::::{{tq2|So, according to the evidence, atheism appears to be a choice to be sadder but wiser, but, in fact, we are not justified in drawing that conclusion.}}
:::::::::::It literally says in the article that "we are not justified in drawing that conclusion." The article is being used as a secondary source for information about a primary source metastudy, but there are also several other sources being used to provide references for the prose. None of them use the "sadder" or "not happy" narrative that you seem awfully eager to shove into the article. If it makes you feel better, strip out the objectional reference but leave the prose alone because it is already adequately sourced. -- ] (]) 17:25, 18 September 2024 (UTC)


== Possible image? ==
'''Metaphysical logicists''' are 100% atheists/antisupernaturalists/antitranscendentalists. Personhood is the result of many impersonal data-processing modalities (Brodmann-like areas) which yield a personhooded biological, digital, program-based or hybrid ]. Personhood isn't a ] but it's a mereological complex. The ] and the ] are final results and not the logical axiomatic foundations. The brain requires space to have a ] and spatiotemporal entropy = time to exhibit data-processing; thus spacetime is a prerequisite for the mind. Personhood isn't cosmogonic nor a fundamental axiom. According to ] irreversible data-processing transforms the lost data into heat. ] isn't possible to function without both forms of entropy, ] and ]. The supernatural isn't only unreachable, but it is fundamentally impossible, because it doesn't meet logical axiomatic criteria being exological; and without specific identity it cannot exist as something specific; and as something existent (the axiomatic prerequisites of the physical foundations cannot ever be something exological without causal and logical relations; any logical foundations is NOT supernatural). The supernatural for the metaphysical logicist = metaphysical naturalist = physicalist = methodological rationalist = atheist is an impossibility.


Per other language wikis and the ], would ] be good for illustrating the article? ] (]) 08:06, 7 October 2024 (UTC)
Mistakes, mental illness and dis-semantics are logically possible as errors, but these errors do not violate logic (they are unoptimal missemantics; due to functional and structural erroneous semantic connectomes) and they are not the physical foundations. According to metaphysical logicism = metaphysical naturalism = physicalism = methodological rationalism = atheism = antisupernaturalism = antitranscendentalism, the supernatural (and religion) are nonfundamental logical errors; erroneous opinions (there are two ways to prove things: empirically via methodological observation and fundamentally via axiomatic logic without causal gaps).


:Have added that image to the Etymology section ] (]) 21:11, 9 October 2024 (UTC)
== Obviously Incorrect Data ==


== create page: ] = ] ==
In the first paragraph of 'Ontological arguments,' the paragraph cites a citing of data about the percentages of academic philosophers and their beliefs. However the two values stated add up to about 106% which is not possible under these circumstances. I just wanted to point this out because it's an obvious mistake. ] (]) 01:59, 11 April 2024 (UTC)


* ] = ]: Atheism based only on the lack of empirical methodologal proof (only ]: scientific observation and scientific experiments are safe for conclusions ).
:They don't add up to 100% because they're answers to different questions on the survey. I think it's freely accessible so you should be able to click through from the citation, go into survey results, and search for naturalism (the questions are next to each other) if you want to check for yourself. ] (]) 07:34, 11 April 2024 (UTC)


Not all atheists are '''empirical atheists'''. Some accept axiomatic foundations (see: ], ], ] , see also: ]). Some atheists accept the ], etc.
== Semi-protected edit request on 26 April 2024 ==


see: ] (see academic documents on all possible methods of proof).
{{Edit semi-protected|Atheism|answered=yes}}
"Please change '''Atheism''', in the broadest sense, is an absence of ] .... to ..... '''Atheism''', in the broadest sense, is a position of skepticism towards a ]" ] (]) 08:59, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
:]&nbsp;'''Not done for now:''' please establish a ] for this alteration ''']''' using the {{Tlx|Edit semi-protected}} template.<!-- Template:ESp --> <code><nowiki>''']'''<nowiki>]]'''</nowiki></code> (]<nowiki>|</nowiki>]) 09:02, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
::You appear to be confusing ] with ] - as an atheist, I am not "sceptical", I am "sure" there is nothing to believe in. - ] (]) 09:12, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
:::That is not accurate either. An "absence of belief" does not equate to being ''sure'' there is nothing to believe in. For example, a newborn infant has no concept of a belief system and therefore has an absence of belief. -- ] (]) 15:02, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
::::Bringing newborns into this debate is a argument based on a reductio ad absurdum. If one makes a claim based on a belief that "there is no XYZ or XYZ does not exist" then one inherits the burden of proof to prove the negative just as those that makes a claim based on a belief "there is XYZ or XYZ exists" have the burden of proof to prove the positive. However in the God debate the proposition that there is "no god" can be as unfalsifiable as the proposition that "there is a god" depending of the definition of "god". In any case a good skeptic keeps and open mind. Furthermore atheism is on a scale as noted in several other articles in Misplaced Pages and I am trying to capture the broadness of that scale in what atheism covers to highlight atheism itself comes under the umbrella of skepticism. Here is a comment I recently made on reddit = ] (]) 04:01, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
:::::@] Atheism does not necessarily involve the claim "God definitely does not exist". More usually it involves saying something like "God-claims seem implausible, there is no good reason to accept them, there are compelling reasons to doubt them, I will live my life on the assumption they are not true." ] (]) 12:28, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
::::::Agreed. ] appears to be ignoring ]. -- ] (]) 18:17, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
::::::My mention of "there is no XYZ or XYZ does not exist" was only a warning concerning the burden of proof and not about atheism. Sorry is that has taken you all off topic. Anyway back to topic, atheism is a position of skepticism / doubt to the claim that a god exists. Please keep in mind that we all start life as newborns with a virtual mental blank slate from which point we are then subject to both nature and nurture. Newborns are neither atheist nor theists (or religious believers). It is how newborns are nurtured to maturity that can lead them either way. Please keep in mind that atheists can be converted to theists (or religious believers) just as theists (or religious believers) can be converted to atheists. Therefore there is NO implicit atheism in the human mind and as such "implicit atheism" is a ridiculous term that simply describes someone doubling down into that skepticism / doubt towards the claim that a god exists. Also keep in mind that for thousands of years of human history we humans have invented some version of a god or a divine mystery so as to give purpose to our lives. Why? Because we recognize our impermanence and the death that awaits. THAT recognition is more implicit than atheism. ] (]) 04:48, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
:::::::Further to my above comment ... as I said in my reddit post, not all atheists are nihilists. ] (]) 04:56, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
::::::::Rejection/skepticism regarding theistic beliefs is not its broadest definition. There are several definitions of atheism and the article, per Misplaced Pages's ] policies, includes them appropriately. The current consensus can be found in this talkpage archives and the lede's citations were . ] (]) 13:22, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
:::::::I'm sorry, Redsparks2025, but you are narrowing the meaning of ''atheism'' with your opinion. Your view is not supported by the preponderance of the reliable sources on the subject. The existing first paragraph has been carefully worked out after extensive and exhausted debate over many years, and is now effectively locked from changes unless something dramatic happens. -- ] (]) 14:47, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
::::::::Your "argument from authority" has been noted an rejected. "Belief" is an inherent feature of all humans and to say atheists have an "absence" of belief is to imply that atheist are somehow psychologically or mentally impaired. A human can have a disbelief or a lack of belief towards XYZ but an absence of belief towards XYZ makes no sense except for a newborn as I noted above. Atheists definitely have opinions towards the claim that a god exists and those opinions are based on skepticism and not an absence of belief. ] (]) 09:36, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::You have no idea what's in my pockets, however we all agree the belief/position definitions of the term ''atheism '' are narrower. Again, since sources differ the article reflects their differences.. ] (]) 11:41, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
::::::::::{{tq2| "Belief" is an inherent feature of all humans and to say atheists have an "absence" of belief is to imply that atheist are somehow psychologically or mentally impaired.}}
:::::::::This is complete nonsense. An ''absence'' of belief occurs when a person is unaware of the concept. For example, there are probably "micro religions" around the world that I am completely unware of and are thus covered under my implicit atheism. While this differs from the explicit atheism I have towards well-known religions, they are both forms of atheism and the former does not imply I am "mentally impaired" in some way. The introduction to this article intends to capture ''all'' forms of atheism, not just the forms '''you''' believe in, Redsparks2025. -- ] (]) 13:59, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
::::::::::Yes, I too found that nonsensical, and also deeply offensive. People who disagree with you are not mentally impaired. Religious belief is not an inherent feature of all humans, and there is nothing deficient about people who lack such beliefs. Depending on how you define the word "believe", atheists may believe in other things, like people or love or their own integrity. But that is a different sort of belief, so I don't think atheists have just transferred belief from one thing to another. Religious belief is something you can happily do without. ] (]) 19:16, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
::::::::::As your say "An ''absence'' of belief occurs when a person is unaware of the concept". Yes that is correct, such as in a newborn. However atheism is defined in opposition to theism. To be an atheist you have to be aware that there is a concept of a god/God so as to oppose that concept otherwise what are atheists doing? Shouting into the void? Atheism in the broadest sense is a position of skepticism / doubt towards the claim that a god/God exists. Skepticism / doubt towards the concept of a god/God existed before "atheism" became a word. That word was created to define a specific type of skepticism / doubt that only had to do with matters relating to a god/God. ] (]) 11:49, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::::BTW Scjessey your incredulity towards my comment has been noted and rejected. There is absolutely nothing special about atheism or being an atheist. It's just an ordinary human that is skeptical / doubts that a god/God exists. ] (]) 11:56, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
{{od|:::::::::::}} {{tq2|To be an atheist you have to be aware that there is a concept of a god/God|Redsparks2025}}
:This is not true at all. Only ''some'' atheists fall into that category. Please read and inwardly digest ] before you insult any of us again. Remember that this article seeks to describe the extremely broad topic of ''atheism'' in all its forms. If you are seeking the currently-accepted definitions of ''atheist'' (which may help you understand what we are all saying), you are in the ]. -- ] (]) 13:19, 30 April 2024 (UTC)


Not all methods of proof are formal. But those who have rigorous logical foundations are used by atheists who debunk the personhooded self-axiomatization, teleology and religious cosmogony. Logical monism is wrong (see: experimental logical foundations . ] has many arguments: separation of personhood per brain, Everettism = many-worlds interpretation, logical, axiomatic and cosmological pluralism, etc.
:Your use of "some" is the key word as to why all oppose my change. You and everyone in opposition to me has not understood I am requesting changed to the "'''broadest'''" meaning of atheism as noted in the paragraph. So stop dragging my request down "into the weeds" about all the different subcategories of atheism. ] (]) 08:45, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
:Your use of "some" is the key word as to why all oppose my change. You and everyone in opposition to me has not understood I am requesting changed to the "'''broadest'''" meaning of atheism as noted in the paragraph. So stop dragging my request down "into the weeds" about all the different subcategories of atheism ] (]) 08:48, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
::How can it be the ''broadest'' sense if you want to limit it to skeptics and exclude people with an absence of belief? You know what ''broadest'' means, right? -- ] (]) 14:08, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
:::As I said absence of belief only occurs in newborns as only their minds are near to a blank slate. However after that as we develop our minds absorb information from our environment and from our social interactions that we eventually develop opinions on that information we absorb. Some of those opinions are based on skepticism which is in itself a negative opinion / negative belief towards some information we encounter, such as the claim that a god/God exists. As a thinking human being - especially as an adult - you are never the blank slate of mind required to have an absence of belief. ] (]) 08:53, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
::::Further to my above comment you may be confusing "absence of belief" with agnosticism, which is not an absence of belief but the view / opinion / belief that some things are unknown or unknowable. This is supported by the issue of . ] (]) 09:18, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
:::::Further to my above comment an agnostic can still be skeptical towards the claim that a god/God exists but recognizes the practicable limit to verifying such a claim. ] (]) 09:22, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
::::{{tq2|absence of belief only occurs in newborns}}
::::This is wrong. I already answered this in my comment above about "micro religions" but it also holds water in secluded parts of the world where a belief system may never existed, although I would concede that in the modern world this is now extremely unlikely. To bring this to a close, I would remind you that the wording of the introduction has been carefully worked out by a large body of editors over a long period of time, with everything fully supported by cast iron sources. I would suggest any continued argument on the matter would be using a ]. -- ] (]) 13:26, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
:::::You are getting into the weeds. The comment I want to change is about atheism in the '''BROADEST''' sense. All humans can be skeptical / have doubts about XYZ and if a human that does not know what a god/God is and then told what a god/God is then that human will have to make some judgement either for or against that new information, including humans in your "micro regions". ] (]) 09:53, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
::::::I know exactly what you are saying, but what you are trying to do is take the broadest possible definition of atheism and ''narrow'' it. Our introductory paragraph '''''must''''' include that broadest possible definition, otherwise the article will fail to capture ''all'' forms of atheism. Let me reiterate: having knowledge of theism is not a requirement of atheism. -- ] (]) 11:54, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
:::::::NO! Skepticism is a position against a claim that is '''available''' in ALL humans including YOU right now being skeptical that atheism in is '''broadest''' sense a position of skepticism towards the claim that a god/God exists. ] (]) 21:22, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
::::::::You can only be skeptical of something if you are aware of it in the first place. If you are not aware of religion, either because you are a newborn or because you have grown up in a society that does not know about religion, you are an atheist. These scenarios are covered by our current wording, and it is supported by the literature. This will be my last reply to what has become a ]. -- ] (]) 03:25, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
{{unindent}}This seems to be going nowhere. Major philosophers have debated whether babies or atheist or whether active rejection is needed (and as far as I know did not arrive at an unanimous conclusion). The current discussion seems however to be based on personal opinion. The current version (as ]) says above my response is backed by reliable sources, so the onus to anyone wanting to change this would need to provide (extremely) high quality sources, but not only that, but also a clear statement that these sourced represent consensus amongst high level scholars. Without any sources establishing that (which I very much doubt exist) furthering this thread makes no sense. ] (]) 17:15, 4 May 2024 (UTC)


Not all atheists have the exact same views. Atheist popularizers like many new atheists, attack religion with merged forces but usually avoid to elaborate to the different atheistic movements. ] (]) 03:56, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
== References to IQ ==


Please provide evidence of your claim. (which sounds reasonable)]] 07:48, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
The last section references links to atheism and intelligence, however IQ is used and I don't think that's correct. 1. IQ is generally agreed to be an unreliable number. 2. None of the references I was able to view (one is a paywalled) mention IQ, rather they talk about education/intellectualism. ] (]) 15:51, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 07:48, 22 December 2024

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Differences

  • atheism is personocratic (it is non-personocratic, but studies the "personocratic criterion" and in philosophy and not only; categories are grouped with the hypernymic criterion of focus) (focused on the denial of the supposed precosmic cosmogonic person); naturalism is physiocratic/naturocratic (it is the pure metaphysics of physics; without a personocratic bias )
  • atheism is a negation; naturalism not
  • atheism as a term is famous nowadays; naturalism is not and doesn't have enough followers (it's not self-evident on philosophical doctrines people to easily move from one idea to a better defined)

Similarities

  • usually (but according to Pew Reseach, Robert Sapolsky and many others) they both accept only science (partially won't do, because theists do the same; partiality here is a bad criterion for categorization)

older comments in Greek, more analytical

Atheist Symbols

I've no problem with this atheist symbol in the Demographics section where it currently is, just not in the lead per wp:undue. Modocc (talk) 16:38, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

The third definition in the opening

I have not read this article or the preceding Talk comments, so, if what I write here is redundant, then I apologize. But the third definition -- "the position that there are no deities" -- is ambiguous. On the one hand, a person who takes that position might insist on the truth of a negative, but to do that requires an act of faith, and few atheists are foolish enough to do that. After all, atheists are generally people who do not believe things on faith. On the other hand, I take the position that there are no deities, not as an act of faith, but because no evidence of them is known to exist. Therefore, my taking of that position is provisional, because, if evidence were discovered, I would consider altering my position. Maurice Magnus (talk) 00:49, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

It does seem a little ambiguous, but I can assure you it reflects the body of scholarly work on the subject. -- Scjessey (talk) 16:26, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
The sources states that in a narrow sense it is a position. It does not matter how people come to that position as there is no one path to reach it, any more than for theism (faith, reason, evidence etc are not unique, but universal). Ramos1990 (talk) 05:58, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
Hi, 'believing in God' and 'believin in the existence of God' are 2 different things. Cf. my comment below. Leaving Neveland (talk) 01:10, 21 November 2024 (UTC)
It is not ambiguous. The below statement is a statement of opinion, not fact. In order to make this statement, you would have needed to review all of the evidence, which you certainly have not, and correctly interpreted it. You're a human being capable of misinterpreting evidence. It is also a statement of faith, you're putting your faith exclusively in your own five senses since you personally have not experienced a deity with those senses.
"I take the position that there are no deities, not as an act of faith, but because no evidence of them is known to exist." PerseusMeredith (talk) 17:37, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
Hello,
Believers do not believe in god because they think there is compelling evidence that god or gods exist. That's not what 'believing in god' (or gods) mean.
I noticed that dictionary definitions sometimes defined atheism as the lack of belief in the existence of God and others as the lack of belief in the existence of god of Gods.
The 'existence'-definition is misleading. The belief is not in the existence but 'in god'.
I keep reading sterile exchanges between theists and atheists about whether god exists or not, with atheists coming up with the no-evidence argument. These debates are restricted to the US to my knowledge. In the rest of the world we know that you don't convince someone into believing in god or stop believing in god. You don't talk someone into being in love or stop being love.
What you can show the person is that their claim that they are in love is fake.
Not a believer myself, not preaching my relgion. 2A04:EE41:80:7290:E468:AFEA:FBB2:7A4E (talk) 01:08, 21 November 2024 (UTC)
Collapsing off-topic discussion per WP:NOTFORUM
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
I am not interested in editing this article, so feel free to ignore this comment, but the third definition is ambiguous, for the reason I stated; it doesn't merely seem ambiguous. And it is unequivocally ambiguous, not just "a little ambiguous." If the body of scholarly work on the subject overlooks or writes off this ambiguity (if that's what you mean), then so much the worse for the body of scholarly work on the subject. Maurice Magnus (talk) 16:57, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
The third definition is strong or positive atheism as in "there is no Thor and no divinity either". It is true it can be provisional, as in "there is no divinity unless one becomes evident". Nevertheless, positive atheism is notable hence its inclusion in the lede. Also the degree it's provisional or not largely depends on context and individual assessments which falls a bit outside its scope, although I am reminded of Richard Dawkins' spectrum of theistic probability. Modocc (talk) 18:40, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
I agree with everything you say here, but I want to emphasize that the difference between a strong atheist (in Dawkins' terms) and a provisional one is crucial, because the former, like a strong theist, believes irrationally, as a matter of faith, and deserves no more respect a strong theist who claims to know that a god exists.
I disagree with Dawkins' description of the strongest atheist after that a "strong atheist." It is "De facto atheist. Very low probability, but short of zero. 'I don't know for certain but I think God is very improbable, and I live my life on the assumption that he is not there.'" I consider myself a stronger atheist than that, without being a "strong atheist" in Dawkins' sense. That is because I would not say that I don't know for certain that a god doesn't exist. I would say that nobody can know for certain. But I have no more doubt about the non-existence of a god than I do about the non-existence of flying pigs, while I acknowledge that I can't "know" the non-existence of either.
I concede that I may be conflating logic and feelings here. Logically, I acknowledge the possibility that a god exists, but I do not feel that there is any possibility. The person who uses Dawkins' phrase, "I don't know for certain," sounds as though he feels that there is a possibility, however close to zero, that a god exists. How's that for nitpicking? Maurice Magnus (talk) 02:28, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
See Agnostic atheism. It makes a clear distinction between knowing (we do not or cannot know) and not believing because we do not have a belief in a god (or a divinity) and we may believe there is no god (provisionally on account of one's agnosticism). Modocc (talk) 04:33, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Removal of sadness/happiness from the citation.

The headline of the citation is "Are atheists sadder but wiser?" Why would one aspect of the article be included but not the studies related to religious people are happier? It is cherry-picking from sources.

https://skepticalinquirer.org/2020/03/are-atheists-sadder-but-wiser/

The health benefits of religious belief is well-documented. I don't understand why it would be scrubbed from this article.

https://www.deseret.com/opinion/2024/03/23/religion-effect-on-happiness/#:~:text=In%20the%20analysis%20in%20this,while%20only%201%25%20reported%20that PerseusMeredith (talk) 12:26, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

The study says there is a statistically significant (in otherwords, big enough to be measurable) correlation between religious belief and self-reported happiness. The study does not say atheists are sadder, which is merely the clickbait title. I guarantee the study did not ask atheists how sad they were, which means it would be incorrect to make that claim in this article. -- Scjessey (talk) 13:30, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
Sure. We can make it “less happy” or “not as happy.” PerseusMeredith (talk) 22:30, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
You are missing the point entirely. While it positively states people with religious belief are happier, it does not positively state that atheists are less happy or not as happy. That would technically be original research.
Imagine a report that stated two people (persons A and B) held 100 oranges between them, but person A held 51 of those oranges. What you want to do is say that person B had 49 oranges but the report does not explicitly state that and it would be original research to do so. You and I know that person B had 49 oranges, but we cannot say so. Person A's Misplaced Pages article can confidently state "person A had 51 oranges" and provide a citation, but because the reference does not say person B had 49 oranges you cannot even mention it in person B's Misplaced Pages article. Do you see what I'm getting at? It doesn't belong in this article. -- Scjessey (talk) 15:01, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
Then the converse would be true and the whole citation should be taken out. That's cherry picking the data. PerseusMeredith (talk) 18:49, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
It's a pity that there had to be an edit-war before this discussion started. I think that Scjessey is taking an extreme view here. Of course we can say in the example that person B had 49 oranges - that's simple arithmetic, not any kind of research, original or not. Whether religious people or atheists are sadder than the others has no connection to the truth value of any statements that they make. Phil Bridger (talk) 13:09, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
The Skeptical Inquirer citation relied upon by the OP's addition is behind a paywall and has thus far not been explicitly quoted here in support of the addition. Nor is it clear whether it is a single study under consideration or whether it is one of many and what the sampled population(s) are and any caveats, such as confounding variables to consider such as the fact that often agnostic atheists do not even identify as atheists due to stigmatization and discrimination in some communities. Also, Caleb Henshaw's piece compares irreligion or nonreligious nones to the religious, which is a problem for there are far fewer irreligious atheists than the many irreligious theists, thus it's not at all specific enough to whether atheists are less happy. Perhaps that may not matter, but I don't know. Modocc (talk) 15:07, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
@Phil Bridger It absolutely is original research when you extrapolate, whether or not it is simple arithmetic. And I haven't been part of any edit war. -- Scjessey (talk) 18:11, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
See WP:CALC, part of WP:OR. And I did not say that you were involved in edit warring - that comment was directed at PerseusMeredith and whoever I thought he was edit-warring against - but I see now that I was wrong so withdraw that sentence. Phil Bridger (talk) 19:28, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
It still fails WP:CALC because it is not a "routine" calculation. The survey claims a percentage level of happiness, but "sadness" is not the opposite of "happiness" just as "cold" is not the opposite of "hot" because other states exists, so any calculation is unsupported and certainly doesn't have a consensus agreement. -- Scjessey (talk) 15:43, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
You are putting words into my mouth. I made no claim about sadness or happiness, but only about your example, which was a bad one. Phil Bridger (talk) 15:55, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
Nevertheless, you still described my interpretation of original research as "extreme" simply because I was trying to come up with an easy-to-understand example of why the original poster's point wasn't valid. That does not seem like an assumption of good faith. Anyway, the point I was trying to make is that the OP was trying to claim a study saying religious people are happier automatically meant that atheists are sadder. Despite the click-baity title of the reference that clearly isn't the case; therefore, the source wasn't used as described. -- Scjessey (talk) 12:54, 17 September 2024 (UTC)
"So, according to the evidence, atheism appears to be a choice to be sadder but wiser, but, in fact, we are not justified in drawing that conclusion. It is important to recognize that all the evidence cited in this column is correlational, which means we cannot identify what causes any of these relationships—only that certain variables travel together."
It's not just a "click bait" title. It's the premise of the whole article. The data clearly shows the more frequently you attend religious services, the more likely you are to indicate you are happy. The basic logic that the author utilizes is that atheists, generally speaking, aren't going to be as likely to attend weekly church services.
You can't have it both ways. The whole thing should come out since it is correlational or the second part of the article should be included. PerseusMeredith (talk) 20:15, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

So, according to the evidence, atheism appears to be a choice to be sadder but wiser, but, in fact, we are not justified in drawing that conclusion.

It literally says in the article that "we are not justified in drawing that conclusion." The article is being used as a secondary source for information about a primary source metastudy, but there are also several other sources being used to provide references for the prose. None of them use the "sadder" or "not happy" narrative that you seem awfully eager to shove into the article. If it makes you feel better, strip out the objectional reference but leave the prose alone because it is already adequately sourced. -- Scjessey (talk) 17:25, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Possible image?

Per other language wikis and the Wikidata item for Atheism, would this image be good for illustrating the article? Quilt Phase (talk) 08:06, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Have added that image to the Etymology section Quilt Phase (talk) 21:11, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

create page: empirical atheism = nonempirical atheism

Not all atheists are empirical atheists. Some accept axiomatic foundations (see: axiomatic system, axiomatization of physics, relation between mathematics and physics , see also: constructor theory). Some atheists accept the proof by contradiction, etc.

see: methods of proof (see academic documents on all possible methods of proof).

Not all methods of proof are formal. But those who have rigorous logical foundations are used by atheists who debunk the personhooded self-axiomatization, teleology and religious cosmogony. Logical monism is wrong (see: experimental logical foundations . Pluralistic physicalism has many arguments: separation of personhood per brain, Everettism = many-worlds interpretation, logical, axiomatic and cosmological pluralism, etc.

Not all atheists have the exact same views. Atheist popularizers like many new atheists, attack religion with merged forces but usually avoid to elaborate to the different atheistic movements. 2A02:2149:8BAC:EA00:8051:85ED:CC45:DCE2 (talk) 03:56, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Please provide evidence of your claim. (which sounds reasonable)Cinadon36 07:48, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

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