| Revision as of 19:39, 28 May 2024 editPrimium (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users3,169 edits →Guidelines on including Russian spelling for location names?: ReplyTag: Reply← Previous edit | Latest revision as of 17:05, 18 December 2024 edit undoLowercase sigmabot III (talk | contribs)Bots, Template editors2,293,591 editsm Archiving 2 discussion(s) to Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Ukraine/Archive 8) (bot | ||
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| == Draft:Yury Yuriyovich Shikula == | |||
| == Good article reassessment for ] == | |||
| ] has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the ]. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. ] (]) 13:20, 24 April 2024 (UTC) | |||
| == New settlement type == | |||
| So I've initially raised this concern in the ], but I guess this is a more appropriate place to ask about it as it potentially impacts hundreds of articles. I've just checked a similar discussion from 30 November 2023 and the classification changes still seemed inconclusive back then (no change in practice). Therefore, I'll quote my original concern: | |||
| {{tq|@Ykvach: Do you have proof/evidence that Krasna Hora would now be considered a "rural settlement" and not a "village"? Because from what I understood from the new, late 2023, law is that a settlement with less than 5k people would become a village. By the way, did any specific change even become official? Because it's one thing to approve a new principle, it's another to implement it in reality. We should at least have a total number of villages and rural settlements under this new classification. Otherwise this would seem like ], sadly.}} | |||
| Alternativelly, is it too early to make such massive changes throughout Misplaced Pages? ] (]) <sup>['']'']</sup> 21:21, 28 April 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :{{ping|Ymblanter}} You've justified your edits with before, but that still seems like ] because the new classifications depend on population and structure of the settlement. The appropriate Ukrainian ministry/body should do this reclassification, not us. We should not interpret laws and make such large scale decisions from them. ] (]) <sup>['']'']</sup> 02:16, 1 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::The fact is there are no urban-type settlements in Ukraine anymore. If the government makes more subtle classification, for example, upgrades some to cities, we will upgrade the articles. We recently had a long discussion about it, with a few participants, but I do not remember where it was. ] (]) 05:22, 1 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::I'm still split on this... I would greatly appreciate if you linked the previous discussion. Do you remember at least if it was in this project space or a random settlement talk page? ] (]) <sup>['']'']</sup> 05:54, 1 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I guess it was on one of the more general talk pages, ] or smth similar. ] (]) 21:23, 1 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::Furthermore, if you guys are making interim decisions, why not already adopt the 5k people village-settlement threshold? Or at least word the change as an ''implication'' instead of an official fact? ] (]) <sup>['']'']</sup> 06:13, 1 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::If there is a law in force about 5k I will be happy to update the articles. ] (]) 21:22, 1 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::What do you mean? It's literally stated in ]. ] (]) <sup>['']'']</sup> 21:30, 1 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::I would like to see some sources that this has been implemented. Ukraine is infamous for not complying with their own laws at all levels. ] (]) 06:58, 2 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::xD ] (]) <sup>['']'']</sup> 15:34, 2 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::The law doesn't exactly work exactly as written. All villages, rural settlements, cities keep their status, but the law introduces certain thresholds that settlements need to reach to change status. The process of up/downgrading the status must be initiated by the local council. ] (]) 11:20, 11 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::Interesting. So the urban-type to rural settlement is automatic, but the redistribution among villages and rural settlements is gradual and on a case-by-case basis? ] (]) <sup>['']'']</sup> 17:26, 11 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::Yes. For example, ] Settlement Council, after , sent to the Verkhovna Rada to upgrade the status from rural settlement to city. In the document they sent it is noted that the current population is estimated to be 12,329 with predominantly (~90%) multi-storey housing, which means that Slobozhanske passes both population and population density thresholds. ] (]) 04:50, 12 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::Cool! ] (]) <sup>['']'']</sup> 04:56, 12 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I am not sure why you called this an interim decision. A law entered in force, and there are sources which describe the implementation. ] (]) 21:24, 1 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::''Interim'' because the official classification will likely have quite a few differences. ] (]) <sup>['']'']</sup> 21:32, 1 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
| {{ping|Ymblanter|Ykvach}} By the way, isn't the new classification not recognized in Russian controlled territories? ] (]) <sup>['']'']</sup> 20:14, 2 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :It is not recognized by Russia, obviously. ] (]) 20:16, 2 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::Then the articles should mention that (that ''de facto'' they're still considered urban-type), of course. ] (]) <sup>['']'']</sup> 20:19, 2 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::I tried to insert similar things in the past, I encountered a pushback from a bunch of users telling me that what Russia thinks about the territories it controls is irrelevant. Some of these users eventually got blocked indef / banned, but others are still around. ] (]) 20:41, 2 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::] is non-negotiable. Their argument is basically worthless. We should try to implement that again. I would recommend a footnote in the infobox and an extra sentence in the body. What do you think? ] (]) <sup>['']'']</sup> 00:07, 3 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Please correct me if I'm wrong about this, but AFAIK the exact designation does not actually matter that much in the law of either country. Therefore the way I would recommend writing these articles would be to not mention the settlement types prominently in the first place. Then somewhere in the article body, we can mention briefly that the designation of the settlement is disputed. Example: "Ukraine, which is internationally recognized as having sovereignty over , designates it a rural-type settlement. However, Russia, which illegally occupies , ''de facto'' administrates it as an urban-type settlement". This is similar to what I've already done in a lot of articles about occupied places where the raion is disputed, because the raions were never really important either. | |||
| :::::By the way, does anyone actually have the relevant law about urban-type settlements in Russia? I've taken a look at the relevant section at ] but was not able to really parse it in a useful way. I don't doubt the overall premise that Russia doesn't recognize the changes, but I think it might be useful to double-check what exactly the Russian classifications are. ] (]) 14:00, 3 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::{{tq|not mention the settlement types prominently in the first place}} How should we write the first sentence of the articles though? Because they're mostly: " is a in , Ukraine." Should we just say the generic ''settlement'' in the first place and then go deeper somewhere else? | |||
| ::::::Furthermore, I would be more careful with overgeneralizations and negative connotations in the ''explainer'' paragraph. For example, "which is internationally recognized..." implies all countries recognize the Ukrainian control. Pretty sure not all countries were fond of the way Ukraine handled the separatism in those regions. Further ahead, "illegally" unnecessarily give a heavy negative value judgment on Russia. "Occupies" already implies that, and we don't need to go into a short analysis of legality, who's right or wrong, evil or not, in every settlement article. Especially since Ukraine did illegal things too. Just gotta keep the text dry and with neutral wording. | |||
| ::::::{{tq|but I think it might be useful to double-check what exactly the Russian classifications are.}} Do you mean in Russia or Donbas? I think that if we simply say they don't recognize the new law, then we can get away with simply implying that whatever was the old type still stands, unless they themselves have changed it since. ] (]) <sup>['']'']</sup> 17:16, 3 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::{{tquote|Should we just say the generic settlement in the first place and then go deeper somewhere else?}} | |||
| :::::::Yeah, that's what I was thinking. As for your criticisms of the connotations and generalizations, the exact wording doesn't really matter, it was just the general gist I was trying to get across, which I think we agree on. | |||
| :::::::{{tquote|Do you mean in Russia or Donbas?}} I was under the impression Russia mostly adopted the laws of the LPR and DPR when it annexed those regions. You're probably right that the specifics aren't that important here. ] (]) 16:04, 5 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::Agreed. Regarding internal wiki categories, ] doesn't apply right? ] (]) <sup>['']'']</sup> 16:45, 5 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::{{ping|Ymblanter}} What do you think? ] (]) <sup>['']'']</sup> 20:52, 8 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::We mention the type of settlement for every other country, I do not see why we should not do it for Ukraine. ] (]) 20:56, 8 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::The Russian classifier, OKATO, would indicate that urban-type settlements remain urban-type settlements. One could argue that that document is outdated, but at least we have a basis to assert that the latest Russian understanding is that they are urban-type. In fact, it seems that all Ukrainian changes are ignored, for example Bakhmut is still referred to as Artemovsk in the document. | |||
| ::::::With this in mind, I argue that for the sake of ] the classifications of both parties should be equally displayed (no footnotes for the Russian POV) in infoboxes and text, but with the Ukrainian classification appearing first for the sake of notability, larger recognition and because order can be more arbitrary. "de facto" and "de jure" should not always (maybe the 2024 captures are still not "de jure" for Russia, idk) be used because the occupied towns are also both "de facto" and "de jure" following the Russian classification in the Russian and local POV. Therefore, the different classifications should be distinguished by "per Russia/Ukraine" or "according to Russia/Ukraine". | |||
| ::::::It should not be solely stated that those settlements "<u>were</u>" considered urban-type as that is only for the Ukrainian POV. So the explanations should also be amended. I also propose to revive the old category as it is still helpful for historic purposes and to respect ]. ] (]) 20:59, 24 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Or god forbid, time could be spent on something more productive. ] (]) 23:11, 25 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::I'm mostly trying to build a consensus at this stage, in case isolated editors complain in the future. | |||
| ::::::::Btw, it's easy to say "why bother" when the current state is already favorable to the person. ] (]) 05:16, 26 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
| == Nomination of ] for deletion == | |||
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| <div class="floatleft" style="margin-bottom:0">]</div>A discussion is taking place as to whether the article ] is suitable for inclusion in Misplaced Pages according to ] or whether it should be ]. | |||
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| Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article until the discussion has finished.<!-- Template:Afd notice --></div> ] (]) 20:13, 30 April 2024 (UTC) | |||
| == Requested move at ] == | |||
| ] There is a requested move discussion at ] that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. ] (]) 20:45, 8 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
| == ] == | |||
| Hello everyone - I have just created the above article and would appreciate any help members of this WikiProject could give. Thanks {{(-:}} ] (]) 10:47, 11 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
| == Infoboxes for settlements in Crimea == | |||
| The infoboxes of Crimean settlements are a mess. The "country" field is sometimes indicated as Ukraine and Russia, Ukraine (occupied by Russia), disputed, or left empty. Generally only the ''de facto'' administrative divisions are included that were ''de jure'' by Ukraine in 2023. I've recently been fixing the infoboxes of various Ukrainian cities for consistency, so when it came to Crimea I tried to follow the structure akin to the one in ] and ], indicating both Ukrainian and Russian administrative divisions. But when @] (whom I'm pinging as this discussion might be of interest) reverted my changes in ] and ] I realized that there's no concensus on this, so now I'm bringing up this topic here. ] (]) 11:33, 11 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :I think there was consensus from 2014 to include de facto/de jure and most if not all settlements followed this but since 2022 there have been arbitrary changes made to this in certain articles as well as the template (which is now deleted). For example there was one POV editor who changed it to just Ukraine in some but not all articles (and they are now indeffed). There is no consensus to change this for occupied settlements in the mainland since 2022 but for Crimea, there has not really been any discussion for this as far as I am aware (and probably not enough interest). ] (]) 04:40, 14 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :I don't see much difference between the two versions of Alupka and Alushta. Cf. ] which is in a similar situation, only for a longer period, I think it's closer to the stable version. ]<sub>]</sub> 20:24, 14 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
| == Stress marks in East Slavic words == | |||
| Please join the work on the content of ]. - ] ] 12:59, 11 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ], I came across this draft a few days ago in a rather incomplete state and have made some edits. However, as a non-Ukrainian speaker, it is challenging for me to fully assess the accuracy, especially regarding the title: is it Yury Yuriyovich Shikula or Yuriy Yuriyovych Shykula. Also, I removed some content from the awards section, as it appeared to pertain to a different individual with the same name. Could someone please review this draft for accuracy? I am particularly curious about this draft as it seems potentially notable. ] (]) 14:44, 26 November 2024 (UTC) | |||
| == Are there common abbreviations for oblast names? == | |||
| :I am not an Ukrainian speaker, but I think he is Yuriy Yuriovych Shykula. We just use ]. ] (]) 17:00, 26 November 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ] (]) <sup>['']'']</sup> 18:02, 11 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
| == Ukraine-related maps by User:Роман Днепр == | |||
| :I don't think so. I've never encountered any, and searching "абревіації областей" on Google returns nothing useful. To my knowledge the only first-level administrative division that has a common abbreviation is Autonomous Republic of Crimea (ARC in English / АРК in Ukrainian). ] (]) 07:48, 12 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::Thanks. Though it's kinda sad as they would be so useful... ] (]) <sup>['']'']</sup> 07:56, 12 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ] (not active for over a year and a half when it comes to his global account) has created at least some maps with his personal ex libris in the lower right corner, and they are strewn across various pages, including important ones; some examples: , , , , , . I think that below is a list of all of his uploads, but I haven't been seriously involved in Misplaced Pages for a long time, so I might be missing something: . Maybe someone here could find some extra time to try and go through it and correct the images affected. | |||
| == ] == | |||
| Do you think any disciplinary measures could be taken against the user? | |||
| Starting this July, we will see a new contest on the scene - the Developing Countries WikiContest (])! Think of it as a ] but only for articles and media on developing countries. | |||
| Posting it here for lack of a better place, and WikiProject:Ukraine seems to be more active in the English version than in the Ukrainian version. ] (]) 02:52, 3 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| Competitors may submit ]s, ]s, ]s, ]s, ]s, ]s, and ] and ] entries from/on developing countries to gain points and climb the leaderboard. Points are also awarded to those who review GAs, FAs and FLs. | |||
| :I don't thing adding ex libris violates any rules. These images are hosted on WikiCommons so you may want to request assistance ] as well. Or you can just do it yourself :) ]<sub>]</sub> 13:15, 7 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| Ukraine is listed as a developing country for the purposes of this contest and articles related to it are eligible to be submitted for points, so I encourage everyone here to sign up and compete with editors from around the world to create high-quality content! | |||
| == ] == | |||
| Append your name to the ] today! | |||
| Is anyone able to rescue this? ] (]) 00:01, 7 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| Best wishes, ] (<small><sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub></small>) 07:08, 19 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
| == Requested move at ] == | |||
| == Guidelines on including Russian spelling for location names? == | |||
| ] There is a requested move discussion at ] that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. ] (]) 17:34, 9 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| == ] == | |||
| Are there any specific guidelines, policies, or precedents on whether or not I should include the Russian spelling of location names? If I'm creating a new article on a village, for example, should I include "'''Something''' ({{lang-uk|щось}}; {{lang-ru|Что-нибудь}}) is a village..."? Thanks! <span style="white-space: nowrap;">– <small>''']''' (])</small></span> 18:03, 27 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
| They completed training and have been sent back to Ukraine, and I'm seeing various Russian, Ukrainian, and French reports on the brigade, but can't make sense of what's going on. The article should use the highest quality sources, such as AP and Reuters, and they have given profiles on the brigade in the past, but haven't given an update since. . . So should we wait until the highest quality sources comment on this? ] (]) 04:45, 18 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :The relevant guideline is ], according to it {{tquote|Relevant foreign language names (one used by at least 10% of sources in the English language or that is used by a group of people which used to inhabit this geographical place) are permitted}}. Of course "relevance" is somewhat subjective. I would add the Russian name either if it has been commonly used in English (like Odessa) or if the locality has been occupied and annexed by Russia in which case the Russian name is clearly used by the inhabitants. ]<sub>]</sub> 19:38, 27 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::Hi, Alaexis. Thanks for your response. So the assumption is that occupied territories will inevitably be inhabited by Russian speakers? <span style="white-space: nowrap;">– <small>''']''' (])</small></span> 21:57, 27 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::Not quite, the assumption is that this is the de facto official language there, so the documents issued there and local news would use the Russian name. The reason we include alternative names is to help the reader find more information about the topic should they want to do it. | |||
| :::Russian speakers live also outside of the occupied territories, actually before the Euromaidan it had the status of a regional language in most of Eastern and Southern Ukraine (see ] for more details). ]<sub>]</sub> 07:24, 28 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Ah, I see. I was assuming it was determined by the local authorities, but I was confused about this case, because Russia's local authority is not recognized by many nations and certainly not by Ukraine or even necessarily the inhabitants. Thank you for the clarity and resources! <span style="white-space: nowrap;">– <small>''']''' (])</small></span> 19:39, 28 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
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Draft:Yury Yuriyovich Shikula
Ymblanter, I came across this draft a few days ago in a rather incomplete state and have made some edits. However, as a non-Ukrainian speaker, it is challenging for me to fully assess the accuracy, especially regarding the title: is it Yury Yuriyovich Shikula or Yuriy Yuriyovych Shykula. Also, I removed some content from the awards section, as it appeared to pertain to a different individual with the same name. Could someone please review this draft for accuracy? I am particularly curious about this draft as it seems potentially notable. TheBirdsShedTears (talk) 14:44, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
- I am not an Ukrainian speaker, but I think he is Yuriy Yuriovych Shykula. We just use MOS:UKR. Ymblanter (talk) 17:00, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
Ukraine-related maps by User:Роман Днепр
User:Роман Днепр (not active for over a year and a half when it comes to his global account) has created at least some maps with his personal ex libris in the lower right corner, and they are strewn across various pages, including important ones; some examples: , , , , , . I think that below is a list of all of his uploads, but I haven't been seriously involved in Misplaced Pages for a long time, so I might be missing something: . Maybe someone here could find some extra time to try and go through it and correct the images affected.
Do you think any disciplinary measures could be taken against the user?
Posting it here for lack of a better place, and WikiProject:Ukraine seems to be more active in the English version than in the Ukrainian version. KarolloraK555 (talk) 02:52, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
- I don't thing adding ex libris violates any rules. These images are hosted on WikiCommons so you may want to request assistance there as well. Or you can just do it yourself :) Alaexis¿question? 13:15, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
Kateryna Bilokon
Is anyone able to rescue this? Bearian (talk) 00:01, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
Requested move at Talk:Leonid Kadeniuk#Page move due to misspelled name
There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Leonid Kadeniuk#Page move due to misspelled name that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Feeglgeef (talk) 17:34, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
155th Mechanized Brigade (Ukraine)
They completed training and have been sent back to Ukraine, and I'm seeing various Russian, Ukrainian, and French reports on the brigade, but can't make sense of what's going on. The article should use the highest quality sources, such as AP and Reuters, and they have given profiles on the brigade in the past, but haven't given an update since. French source. Ukraine source. So should we wait until the highest quality sources comment on this? Harizotoh9 (talk) 04:45, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
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