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== NPOV (anarcho-capitalism) == |
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== Good Article Nomination == |
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For major contributors of this article, do you think this article is fit for nomination for GA, if so reply to me and I will add it or add it yourself. ] (]) 12:41, 19 November 2023 (UTC) |
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The given header seems to be in violation of the following guidelines: |
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== "]" listed at ] == |
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The redirect <span class="plainlinks"></span> has been listed at ] to determine whether its use and function meets the ]. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at '''{{slink|Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 March 12#LGBT liberalism}}''' until a consensus is reached. <!-- Template:RFDNote --> <span style="background-color: #FFCFBF; font-variant: small-caps">] <sub>(''']''' / ''']''')</sub></span> 06:43, 12 March 2024 (UTC) |
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== Bias? == |
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* '''Avoid stating ] as ].''' Usually, articles will contain information about the significant ] that have been expressed about their subjects. However, these opinions should not be stated in Misplaced Pages's voice. Rather, they should be ], or where justified, described as widespread views, etc. For example, an article should not state that "] is an evil action" but may state that "genocide has been described by John So-and-so as the epitome of human evil." |
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* '''Avoid stating seriously contested assertions as facts.''' If different reliable sources make conflicting assertions about a matter, treat these assertions as opinions rather than facts, and do not present them as direct statements. |
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The term "welfare state" in the opening is a rather biased term. I'm not suggesting it be removed but that some additional commentary be added to it, e.g.,"In Europe and North America, the establishment of social liberalism . . . became a key component in Rawls' theory of liberalism that argues the need for economic safety nets for the poor which some people refer to as the "welfare state." ] (]) 18:19, 3 October 2024 (UTC) |
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:You're assuming there's some partisan connotation to the term not actually borne out in its use: it is a very well-established term with a fairly descriptive meaning. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff"> ‥ </span>]</span> 00:54, 4 October 2024 (UTC) |
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It is incorrect to label Herbert Spencer, Paul Émile de Puydt, and Auberon Herbert as anarcho-capitalists. Spencer believed in the necessity of the state to safeguard property rights and is not considered an anarcho-capitalist by most historians . Puydt proposed a unique system called "panarchy" that differs from ] . A. Herbert referred to his system as voluntarism and explicitly rejected the idea of anarchism during a debate with Benj. R. Tucker. He advocated for a voluntarily funded state with a legal system imposed by coercion, leading to criticism from Hobson and Yarros for promoting plutocracy . |
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== British Imperialism == |
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'''References:''' |
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Wording in this section is vague, "liberals increasingly understood that people left out of the voting|democratic decision-making process were liable to the 'tyranny of the majority'." |
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I think the statement is meant to express that the minority tyat had no voting power were likely to be tyrannized by the majority that do have voting power, but the sentence could be made more clear. ] (]) 23:42, 3 October 2024 (UTC) |
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== Misreading of Rawls == |
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Under British Imperialism, "American philosopher John Rawls emphasised the need to ensure equality under the law and the equal distribution of material resources that individuals required to develop their aspirations in life." This is a misreading of Rawls. Rawls did not advocate redistribution in any simple sense. |
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Another problem is the idea of "statelessness" according to anarcho-capitalist authors, which seems to conflict with . The ] proposed for example by ] and ] are ] and '']'' ] if we consider Thomas D. Musgrave's definition of state. In fact, a real-world ] or a real-world private charter city is subordinate to state power – private cities in anarcho-capitalism seem to be more akin to ]. These issues have already been raised by various authors (see the critical section on the ]) however, primary source positions have been favored over analysis and criticism. |
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See p. 72, ''Theory of Justice'', "Social and economic inequalities are to be arranged so that they are both (a) to the greatest expected benefit of the least advantaged and (b) attached to offices and positions open to all under conditions of fair equality of opportunity." |
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The history of anarcho-capitalism present in this article, on the other hand, seems to be a historical forgery; from brief search, I saw that anarcho-capitalist ideas seem to have originated in the 1960s, popularized by Jarret B. Wollstein, ] and Murray N. Rothbard (see https://c4ss.org/content/39997). |
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In other words, it may behoove society to pay a talented engineer more money than the unskilled worker if by doing so, that talented engineer can construct improvements that would benefit everyone as a whole. |
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The topic, after a reading of the ideas, seems to be more akin to the ] or the ]. Authors such as Rothbard and Hoppe are explicitly pro-segregation for example, as well as overt references to the ] (see Rothbard's views on Abraham Lincoln). |
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Rawls, John, ''Theory of Justice'', President and Fellows of Harvard College, Revised Edition, 1999. ] (]) 00:16, 4 October 2024 (UTC) |
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There are so many controversies, I'm not going to mention them all, but there is just such a blustering affiliation between racism and anarcho-capitalism. For example, anarcho-capitalist ] wrote for ] publications . |
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== No sources for liberal feminism == |
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I think it is necessary to investigate whether anarcho-capitalism is suitable to be presented in the article on liberalism and, if so, whether it should be presented in such an overtly apologetic manner with serious omissions highlighted. |
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Being liberal is a political position on the political scale that is center toward the middle. The stance in the article is far left "Liberal feminism, the dominant tradition in feminist history, is an individualistic form of feminist theory that focuses on women's ability to maintain their equality through their actions and choices. Liberal feminists hope to eradicate all barriers to gender equality, claiming that the continued existence of such barriers eviscerates the individual rights and freedoms ostensibly guaranteed by a liberal social order." |
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n.b. When I mean "pro-segregation" I am referring to support for ], ], etc. ] (]) 13:25, 12 May 2023 (UTC) |
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Please refer to the political spectrum before you radicalize the paper. thank you |
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https://www.britannica.com/topic/political-spectrum ] (]) 01:30, 16 November 2024 (UTC) |
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:Ancaps are a good example of people thinking that when they've changed the names of things then they have changed the nature of those things. Their view on the state also conflicts with the Marxian view of the state as an instrument of class rule. Another definition I've seen is that of an armed body of men exercising a monopoly of violence in an area. That said, because ancaps defend private property, that still makes them liberals. |
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:I do agree the section is very lacking in the NPOV department. ] (]) 18:29, 15 May 2023 (UTC) |
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:You sure? . ] (]) 08:52, 16 November 2024 (UTC) |
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::@] I don't think the source - ] - is reliable. In addition, the article is contradictory: the premises are anti-absolutist but anarcho-capitalism is ] (i.e., there are individuals who control portions of territory without constitutional limits - historians trace the birth of liberalism specifically to limit ]). From what I have read (see the Italian Misplaced Pages article and related sources), this socio-economic system is akin to the concepts of plutocracy (or timocracy) and in some cases absolute monarchy. |
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::I would also like to mention that ], ], and other ancaps have explicitly written against liberalism (both classical liberalism and social liberalism). |
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::Regarding segregationist positions the Italian wikipedia article summarizes these ideas: ] |
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::These are ideas of the U.S. alt-right and radical right presented in a politically correct way. To me this looks like whitewashing. I invite other users to join the discussion. ] (]) 08:19, 17 May 2023 (UTC) |
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::::There seems to be a general agreement that the section on anarcho-capitalism needs work. I will also point out that it links to a very long article, ] which needs a great deal of work. I hope someone is willing to undertake the thankless task of fixing the section and the long article. Both need to be much shorter, and have points of view attributed to their authors, not stated as facts. ] (]) 12:26, 17 May 2023 (UTC) |
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:::::@] @] @] @] @] @] @] @] @] @] @] I think anarcho-capitalism conflicts with certain guidelines such as ] and ]. |
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:::::WP:FRINGE is mainly because the idea of those present (proto)anarcho-capitalist authors is only supported by a right-libertarian author. |
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:::::For example, no serious source describes Herbert Spencer as "anarcho-capitalist" or "anti-state liberal"; by the way, Herbert himself supports the very state in defense of property rights. |
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:::::As already mentioned those authors are generally regarded as ], ] (see ]; which as mentioned above rejects anarchy after a debate with ].), ], ], etc. ] (]) 12:26, 19 June 2023 (UTC) |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 23 June 2023 == |
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{{edit semi-protected|Liberalism|answered=yes}} |
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Please, include more recent scholarship on liberalism: |
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In the book Minoritarian Liberalism (Chicago 2022), anthropologist Moises Lino e Silva argues that liberalism as we know it has a colonial and Eurocentric heritage. The author proposes an alternative theory on minoritarian modes of liberalism: "always relational — it is not simply an alternative, but something that emerges 'within, against, and beyond' the domination and limited (often bleak) possibilities that normative liberalism brings to the life of 'subaltern' populations." (p.12) ] (]) 13:19, 23 June 2023 (UTC) |
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:] '''Not done for now:'''<!-- Template:ESp --> Not clear why this is necessary, and since your username is an initialism of that author's name, the impression of a ] is created. ] (]) 13:33, 23 June 2023 (UTC) |
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::Wendy Brown (University of California, Berkeley) explains why: "Lino e Silva's remarkable book fulfills its ambition to decolonize the freedom at liberalism's heart. Equal parts erudite political theory and delicate anthropology, it roams a favela in Rio for stories and imaginaries across Blackness, queerness, gender, and class, where it discovers everywhere the bubbling of minoritarian desires and practices of freedom. This beautifully written work does nothing less than bring liberalism--as theory and practice--into the twenty-first century." https://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/M/bo135981232.html ] (]) 13:38, 23 June 2023 (UTC) |
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:::I cannot find any discussion of minoritarian liberalism other than the book and articles about it. We shall have to wait an see what influence it has. ] (]) 15:08, 23 June 2023 (UTC) |
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:] '''Not done for now:''' please establish a ] for this alteration ''']''' using the {{Tlx|Edit semi-protected}} template.<!-- Template:ESp --> ] 17:23, 23 June 2023 (UTC) |
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::Before reading this discussion, I had separately had thoughts I think align well with "Option C". |
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::I propose that we revise the section on liberalism and political equality to reflect the historical and philosophical origins of this concept. Liberalism emerged in the Age of Enlightenment as a reaction against the traditional forms of authority, such as hereditary privilege, state religion, absolute monarchy, and divine right of kings. Liberalism advocated for representative democracy, rule of law, and **equality under the law** as the basis of a free and just society. |
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::Political equality, however, is not synonymous with equality under the law. Political equality refers to the equal participation and influence of citizens in a democratic system, regardless of their social or economic status. Equality under the law, on the other hand, means that all people are subject to the same laws and have the same rights and obligations before the courts. Equality under the law is a necessary but not sufficient condition for political equality. Confusing these concepts is an adulteration of English. |
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::Liberalism has historically been more concerned with equality under the law than with political equality. Classical liberalism, for example, emphasizes individual rights, economic freedom, and limited government as the core principles of liberalism. Classical liberals oppose any interference by the state in the market or in the private sphere of individuals, even if such interference aims to promote social justice or political equality. |
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::Therefore, I suggest that we clarify that liberalism is not based on political equality, but on equality under the law. We should also provide some citations from the Enlightenment thinkers who influenced the development of liberalism, such as John Locke, Montesquieu, Adam Smith, and John Stuart Mill. |
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::: <nowiki>https://en.wikipedia.org/Liberalism</nowiki> |
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::: <nowiki>http://libjournals.unca.edu/ncur/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/1284-Stanton-FINAL.pdf</nowiki> |
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::: <nowiki>https://en.wikipedia.org/Equality_before_the_law</nowiki> |
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::: <nowiki>https://en.wikipedia.org/Classical_liberalism</nowiki> ] (]) 21:34, 7 July 2023 (UTC) |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 8 July 2023 == |
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{{Edit semi-protected|Liberalism|answered=yes}} |
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Create a section on ] or radically anti-tax forms of liberalism. Integrate the content, if reliable, of the "anarcho-capitalism" section into the new section. ] (]) 11:48, 8 July 2023 (UTC) |
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:] '''Not done:''' it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a ] and provide a ] if appropriate.<!-- Template:ESp --> ] (]) 12:30, 8 July 2023 (UTC) |
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::Change "anarcho-capitalist theory" to "neo-classical liberal theory" per ]. It is unclear why a section of which a large proportion of the thinkers mentioned are not anarcho-capitalists should be called "anarcho-capitalist theory." |
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::Ref. |
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::''From Politics Past to Politics Future An Integrated Analysis of Current and Emergent Paradigms'' by Alan Maine pp. 124–125 |
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::''SAGE Publications' 21st Century Political Science A Reference Handbook'' pp. 596–603 ] (]) 13:09, 8 July 2023 (UTC) |
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:::p.s. Among other things, the current section contains original research, such as "Unlike the liberalism of Locke, which saw the state as evolving from society, the anti-state liberals saw a fundamental conflict between the voluntary interactions of people, i.e. society, and the institutions of force, i.e. the state. This society versus state idea was expressed in various ways: natural society vs artificial society, liberty vs authority, society of contract vs society of authority and industrial society vs militant society, to name a few." ] (]) 13:23, 8 July 2023 (UTC) |
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== Good Article Nomination == |
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For major contributors of this article, do you think this article is fit for nomination for GA, if so reply to me and I will add it or add it yourself. ] (]) 12:41, 19 November 2023 (UTC) |
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== "]" listed at ] == |
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] |
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The redirect <span class="plainlinks"></span> has been listed at ] to determine whether its use and function meets the ]. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at '''{{slink|Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 March 12#LGBT liberalism}}''' until a consensus is reached. <!-- Template:RFDNote --> <span style="background-color: #FFCFBF; font-variant: small-caps">] <sub>(''']''' / ''']''')</sub></span> 06:43, 12 March 2024 (UTC) |
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== Bias? == |
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The term "welfare state" in the opening is a rather biased term. I'm not suggesting it be removed but that some additional commentary be added to it, e.g.,"In Europe and North America, the establishment of social liberalism . . . became a key component in Rawls' theory of liberalism that argues the need for economic safety nets for the poor which some people refer to as the "welfare state." ] (]) 18:19, 3 October 2024 (UTC) |
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For major contributors of this article, do you think this article is fit for nomination for GA, if so reply to me and I will add it or add it yourself. Sangsangaplaz (talk) 12:41, 19 November 2023 (UTC)
The term "welfare state" in the opening is a rather biased term. I'm not suggesting it be removed but that some additional commentary be added to it, e.g.,"In Europe and North America, the establishment of social liberalism . . . became a key component in Rawls' theory of liberalism that argues the need for economic safety nets for the poor which some people refer to as the "welfare state." 2601:645:A00:D50:B4BF:E483:8397:24D0 (talk) 18:19, 3 October 2024 (UTC)
Wording in this section is vague, "liberals increasingly understood that people left out of the voting|democratic decision-making process were liable to the 'tyranny of the majority'."
I think the statement is meant to express that the minority tyat had no voting power were likely to be tyrannized by the majority that do have voting power, but the sentence could be made more clear. Geraldpriddle (talk) 23:42, 3 October 2024 (UTC)
Under British Imperialism, "American philosopher John Rawls emphasised the need to ensure equality under the law and the equal distribution of material resources that individuals required to develop their aspirations in life." This is a misreading of Rawls. Rawls did not advocate redistribution in any simple sense.
See p. 72, Theory of Justice, "Social and economic inequalities are to be arranged so that they are both (a) to the greatest expected benefit of the least advantaged and (b) attached to offices and positions open to all under conditions of fair equality of opportunity."
In other words, it may behoove society to pay a talented engineer more money than the unskilled worker if by doing so, that talented engineer can construct improvements that would benefit everyone as a whole.
Being liberal is a political position on the political scale that is center toward the middle. The stance in the article is far left "Liberal feminism, the dominant tradition in feminist history, is an individualistic form of feminist theory that focuses on women's ability to maintain their equality through their actions and choices. Liberal feminists hope to eradicate all barriers to gender equality, claiming that the continued existence of such barriers eviscerates the individual rights and freedoms ostensibly guaranteed by a liberal social order."
Please refer to the political spectrum before you radicalize the paper. thank you
https://www.britannica.com/topic/political-spectrum 2603:7000:B901:8500:A50C:5B0D:F547:78DB (talk) 01:30, 16 November 2024 (UTC)
level-3 vital article is rated B-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
The redirect LGBT liberalism has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 March 12 § LGBT liberalism until a consensus is reached. Utopes (talk / cont) 06:43, 12 March 2024 (UTC)