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== Various "BOLD" changes. ==
<span class="wikied-assignment" style="font-size:85%;">— Assignment last updated by ] (]) 18:45, 25 April 2023 (UTC)</span>


@] Re. changes, I made changes to improve the encyclopaedic tone of the page. The issues with the "Jewish deicide" section in particular are:
==Extinct pagan antisemitic tropes?==
# There is no reason to link to the definitions of ordinary English words like "tumult" or "multitude" or "ye".
I wonder if it would be a good idea to include anti-Jewish tropes that were used in pre-Christian times. The reason they're not in the article now is because most of them fell dramatically out of favor after Christianity caught on.
# Jewish deicide was not "legitimised" by Chrysostom, whatever that means, but as the sources quoted say, he was heavily antisemitic and popularised the claim, allegedly first using the term "deicide".
# It is not encyclopaedic to term opponents as "radical traditionalists" as this is editorialising. The SPLC is not an unbiased source so directly adopting "radical" is inappropriate.<ref>https://jewishjournal.com/news/united-states/372532/wikipedia-editors-label-adl-only-reliable-for-antisemitism-when-israel-and-zionism-are-not-concerned/</ref> "Rad trads" is also inappropriate.
# Claims of the Temple Menorah being hidden in the Vatican are irrelevant to claims of deicide.
# Claiming subreddits are filled with "rad trads" is not encyclopaedic and is probably original research.
# "Peddling" is editorialising. Furthermore, the things "peddled" (also citing SPLC) are mostly irrelevant to the claims of Jewish deicide. E.g. Adolf Hitler being the end-result of a Freemason plot?
# Downplaying the effects of the Inquisition or denying its scale by the Vatican and Catholics is irrelevant to claims of Jewish deicide.
# Exaggerating the role of Catholics in saving Jews during WWII is irrelevant to claims of Jewish deicide.
# There is a failure to address any non-Roman Catholic perspectives.


Please identify which edits I made you have concerns with. ''']''' ('']'') 07:39, 2 November 2024 (UTC)
E.g., at one point it was extremely common to attack Jews as disloyal for not engaging in ] like most other civilizations did. Since Christianity also rejects emperor worship, this line of attack mostly died out when paganism did. Similarly, circumcision was frequently invoked by Greeks and Romans to portray Jewish men as sexually abnormal; this trope lost most of its appeal with the rise of Christianity (which worships a circumcised savior) and even more so Islam (which actually adopted the practice for itself). Pagans also ridiculed the Jews for looking to messiah figures for salvation, which is ironic since Christians would later do the _exact_ opposite by attacking the Jews for rejecting Jesus as messiah.


== Why not under Trope? ==
Since these archaic forms of antisemitism mostly went extinct, it might seem less relevant to include them in the article now. The only time they appear nowadays is in the rhetoric of some fringe-y neopagan types, particularly those with a Nietzschean bent like ].


Why isn’t this entry under Trope, Libel, Canard, or even Anti-semitism? Surely it is not the sole example of any of the above. ] (]) 19:11, 3 November 2024 (UTC)
However, including these early antisemitic tropes would certainly help illustrate just how very _different_ classical (pagan) society and its mores were from ours. In a lot of ways, secular modernity has more in common with Christendom than either of them do with your typical ancient pagan society. (This, incidentally, is one of the things that really irks guys like BAP). ] (]) 06:03, 1 July 2023 (UTC)


:What does that mean? This article could not be usefully merged with any other. It's for narratives which keep on being revived again and again time after time, no matter how effectively they've been refuted, or how little basis in fact they have. (This was clearer under the article's previous name.) ] (]) 19:01, 4 November 2024 (UTC)
:It seems within scope and reasonable to include material on this. Yes, prejudice and therefore tropes did not begin only with Christendom. ] (]) 09:08, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
:This page is about improving the article ]. Just as AnonMoos, I do not know what you mean by "this entry" being "under Trope", but maybe you want to improve the articles ], ], ], or ] instead by linking to this article? It would be helpful if you learn the terms used by Misplaced Pages, such as "article", so people understand what you mean. --] (]) 07:55, 5 November 2024 (UTC)


== Some irrelevant information in main section. ==
:By the way, Romans attacked Christians just as much as Jews for not worshipping the emperor -- sometimes even more so, since such practices by Jews were sometimes tolerated if they were following their ancestral religion, while Christians would not receive the same benefit of the doubt if they were perceived as practicing a new or innovated religion (in Roman eyes, a new religion was much more suspect than an ancestral one). ] (]) 03:25, 25 February 2024 (UTC)


The last lines of the main section read: "The most recent example is the denial or trivialization of the October 7 massacres, with the victims overwhelmingly Jewish, including several Holocaust survivors."
::P.S. Both Jews and Christians were sometimes called "atheists" by ancient Greco-Romans, in the sense of refusing to recognize the deities involved in various social and political rituals... ] (]) 14:10, 1 March 2024 (UTC)


I would change this to: "The most recent example is the denial or trivialization of the October 7 massacres, with the victims overwhelmingly Jewish."
== "Well poisoning hoax" ==


Indeed, the fact that many victims were Holocaust survivors is irrelevant to the denial or trivialisation of October 7th atrocities.
someone should add a section here about Israeli poisoning of Palestinian wells and causing widespread sickness and death


Also, the cited source isn't of a good enough quality. Better sources should be found. ] (]) 18:33, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
page for reference = https://en.wikipedia.org/Well_poisoning#:~:text=Israel%20poisoned%20the%20wells%20and,that%20was%20foiled%20by%20the


== Antisemitism did not cause WWII ==
Thank you ] (]) 19:05, 24 February 2024 (UTC)


It's a bit disconcerting to read in the main section that "These tropes fatefully formed Adolf Hitler's worldview, caused WWII". Of course antisemitism was the base for the Holocaust but and instrumental for the rise of the Nazi party but nobody has ever argued that it ''caused'' WWII. ] (]) 00:13, 9 November 2024 (UTC)
:Having seen your message, it is clear that article has exactly served its purpose. ] (]) 23:48, 24 September 2024 (UTC)


:Doctrines of Lebensraum and Slavic Untermenschen, and a desire to get revenge on the French were most important in determining Hitler's aggressive policies which led to war. Once the war started, antisemitism had a big influence on how conquered territories were governed. ] (]) 13:35, 9 November 2024 (UTC)
== Changing source on well poisoning hoax ==
::What you said isn't expressed by the passage at all though and still, I don't think any historian ever claimed that "these tropes causes WWII". I'd say it's even hard to argue that they caused ''in part'' WWII. ] (]) 17:33, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Is it possible to choose a different source for the summary on the well poisoning hoax (the 14th citation)? I believe the citation leads to a pro-Zionist website; another article published from them covering a university student rally used the word genocide in quotations (to deny its occurance). ] (]) 20:06, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
:{{u|Throwaway200}}, reliable sources are allowed to have their own point of view, and favoring Zionism does not lead to the conclusion that the source is unreliable, any more than a published source opposing Zionism means that source is unreliable. Nor does calling into question the point of view that Israel is guilty of genocide in Gaza render a source unreliable. ] (]) 03:38, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
:What do you mean by "pro-Zionist"? ] (]) 01:30, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

== Minor clarifications regarding Demonization in other religions or movements ==

The word "insecurity" is in quotes, but I'm having problems finding where in the 3 given sources it's specifically used.

Secondly, can I remove the links in ] & ]? They read as clear ''].'' ] (]) 17:39, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

== His Jewish community or the Jewish community? ==

The article currently reads: ''"The UC rejected AJC's criticisms as "distortion" and "obscurations", especially by Mose Durst, a convert from Judaism who became the president of the Unification Church of the United States, who accused his Jewish community of "insecurity" and being "hateful".''

I changed the possessive pronoun to "the" so the last sentence would read "who accused the Jewish community". Steven changed it back commenting "Mose Durst was Jewish: https://www.dialogueireland.ie/dicontent/resources/dciarchive/zinterviewdurst.html. A Jew is both a racial and religious identity". Well I would say it's both an ethnic and religious identity (and also cultural) rather than "racial" - but in any case it's irrelevant since regardless of whether or not they are part of the community one would more commonly use the article "the" rather than a possessive pronoun. ] (]) 17:51, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

:I think I'm having problems parsing the sentence as a whole. Is it saying the UC rejected criticisms made '''''by''''' Mose Durst or criticisms '''''of''''' Mose Durst? I assume the latter due to his membership, but I've read this sentence ~20 times & am still confused.
:To now comment directly on your question though, was the accusation specifically directed towards his local community or the Jewish community as a whole? ] (]) 18:05, 3 October 2024 (UTC)
::Yes, I was about to add that the passage is very poorly written and confusing. I'm trying to figure out which source actually mentions Durst. ] (]) 18:21, 3 October 2024 (UTC)
:::They're name dropped & wrote . Sources 326 & 327 respectively. ] (]) 18:29, 3 October 2024 (UTC)
:::::Okay, I think the passage means ''by Durst'' as per this article by him - the problem is the quoted words "insecurity" and "hateful" appear nowhere in this source, nor does this source mention Rabbi Rudin at all so it's not clear it is a response to him. Nor does the Time Magazine article that mentions Durst use these words so it appears we have quotations that are not properly sourced or that are not in the source that they are attributed to. I'm going to remove the passage about Durst - if someone can find an actual quote by him in response to the AJC's criticisms they can put him and the ''correct'' quotes back in. ] (]) 18:35, 3 October 2024 (UTC)
::For the poor phrasing, it is regretful and I apologise for it. ] (]) 20:11, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

The passage also says "Despite the UC's claims, Sun Myung Moon held an interfaith march with Louis Farrakhan, the most influential antisemite in America, in Washington D.C." - The claim that Farrakhan is the "most influential antisemite in America" needs to be attributed, otherwise it's an assertion by wikipedia itself. This appears to be an editorial comment by whichever Misplaced Pages editor added it as none of the cited sources make this claim. The closest I can find is Abraham Foxman calling him an "unrepentant bigot" in the Washington Post article and the NY Times article stating "Mr. Farrakhan, whom critics denounce as a race-baiter and anti-Semite" but neither article says he is the "most influential antisemite" in the US. I think it may be necessary to go through this article carefully and check it against the sources since it appears editors have been inserting their own editorial comments. ] (]) 18:57, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

:{{ping|Steven1991}} It looks like you added the claim that Farrakhan is the "most influential antisemite in America" Was this an editorial comments or is it in one of the sources that's cited at the end of the sentence? I couldn't find it in any of the sources which leads me to remind you ''not'' to insert your personal views or editorial comments into Misplaced Pages articles. If someone did say this about Farrakhan than it needs to be attributed and you can't write as if this is a fact asserted by Misplaced Pages, you should say something like "Farrakhan, whom X describes as the 'most influential antisemite in America'". Please read the ] policy as well as ]. ] (]) 19:08, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

== Scare quotes ==

{{ping|Steven1991}} Can you please stop using scare quotes ie Messianic "Jews". Your edit note says "but “Messianic Judaism” is not considered as Judaism but an Evangelical Christian movement – this is discussed in its relevant Misplaced Pages article." If you read the article ] you will see that the article isn't titled ''Messianic "Judiaism"'' and doesn't put Jews or Judaism in scare quotes at all. Scare quotes are a way of editorialising and expressing scorn and should be avoided as POV. Some ultraorthodox reject the state of Israel as contrary to the belief that there cannot be a state before the Messiah returns. Does this mean we should be writing "Israel" in scare quotes? Most Christians believe the Mormons are a heretical un-Christian sect. Does that mean we should write Church of "Jesus Christ" and Latter-Day Saints? Please try to write neutrally. ] (]) 20:32, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

:In the context of their own articles, ''scare quotes'' are not appropriate. However, when they are placed in other articles not directly related, quotes are sometimes needed to avoid causing confusion or granting the objects legitimacy we are not supposed to. I believe that not a few folks would say that it is wrong to put ''National Socialism'' in quotation when it shows up in articles not directly related to Nazism. Whether quote use is not neutral, it depends on context, and sometimes individual perceptions. ] (]) 20:38, 3 October 2024 (UTC)
:I understand your concern, but simply state my points. If such quote use is not desirable, then – yes – due attention can be paid in future edits, but it doesn’t mean that such quote use is inherently a form of editorialisation. Journalists regularly use quotation marks for different subjects/objects they are reporting. Does it mean they are biased? Yes, many of them are. However, it is also important to note that the impact of such quote use ought not to be exaggerated. ] (]) 20:43, 3 October 2024 (UTC)
::Does it mean they may be* ] (]) 20:46, 3 October 2024 (UTC)
:::"Journalists regularly use quotation marks for different subjects/objects they are reporting." - that's quoting - as I've just done. ]s are "quotation marks used around a word or phrase when they are not required, thereby eliciting attention or doubts", according to the online OED. Our own article on scare quotes says "Scare quotes (also called shudder quotes, and sneer quotes,) are quotation marks that writers place around a word or phrase to signal that they are using it in an ironic, referential, or otherwise non-standard sense. Scare quotes may indicate that the author is using someone else's term, similar to preceding a phrase with the expression "so-called"; they may imply skepticism or disagreement, belief that the words are misused, or that the writer intends a meaning opposite to the words enclosed in quotes. Whether quotation marks are considered scare quotes depends on context because scare quotes are not visually different from actual quotations. The use of scare quotes is sometimes discouraged in formal or academic writing." ] (]) 20:55, 3 October 2024 (UTC)
::::As I said, I acknowledge your POV and have agreed to pay attention to the quote use. I understand that you don’t see it that way, but am simply asserting my points. I know that you will not agree given the fundamental differences on this issue or more, so I don’t see the meaning of repeating the same points. I have said everything I need to regarding this specific matter. ] (]) 21:28, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

== Number & quality of sources ==

There are way too many citations being used to support the same sentences throughout this article. We shouldn't even have citations in the opening, yet the first paragraph alone has 8, 7 of which are for the the same sentence. Mind you, some parts then triple that, with this sentence

"] (7 dead and 3 injured) and ] (1 dead and 4 injured)."

clocking in at 26 inline citations.

Furthermore, the quality of sourcing is severely lacking with sources ranging from a lack of attribution (ADL, Newsweek, Washington Examiner, MEMRITV, National Review, The Daily Beast), unreliability (Free Beacon, Jewish Virtual Library, New York Post, The Federalist, Rolling Stone, Fox News), or never should've been cited at all (Heritage Foundation).

This is by no means an exhaustive look through, but I think these problems are more then enough to warrant concern, especially for an article like this. ] (]) 22:13, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

:I would say whether a piece of news is reliable it should depend on content rather than source. Dismissing an entire report based on a source is not neutral or objective itself. ] (]) 23:04, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 17:14, 18 November 2024

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Various "BOLD" changes.

@Kapitankapow Re. changes, I made changes to improve the encyclopaedic tone of the page. The issues with the "Jewish deicide" section in particular are:

  1. There is no reason to link to the definitions of ordinary English words like "tumult" or "multitude" or "ye".
  2. Jewish deicide was not "legitimised" by Chrysostom, whatever that means, but as the sources quoted say, he was heavily antisemitic and popularised the claim, allegedly first using the term "deicide".
  3. It is not encyclopaedic to term opponents as "radical traditionalists" as this is editorialising. The SPLC is not an unbiased source so directly adopting "radical" is inappropriate. "Rad trads" is also inappropriate.
  4. Claims of the Temple Menorah being hidden in the Vatican are irrelevant to claims of deicide.
  5. Claiming subreddits are filled with "rad trads" is not encyclopaedic and is probably original research.
  6. "Peddling" is editorialising. Furthermore, the things "peddled" (also citing SPLC) are mostly irrelevant to the claims of Jewish deicide. E.g. Adolf Hitler being the end-result of a Freemason plot?
  7. Downplaying the effects of the Inquisition or denying its scale by the Vatican and Catholics is irrelevant to claims of Jewish deicide.
  8. Exaggerating the role of Catholics in saving Jews during WWII is irrelevant to claims of Jewish deicide.
  9. There is a failure to address any non-Roman Catholic perspectives.

Please identify which edits I made you have concerns with. Steepleman (t) 07:39, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Why not under Trope?

Why isn’t this entry under Trope, Libel, Canard, or even Anti-semitism? Surely it is not the sole example of any of the above. GianniBGood (talk) 19:11, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

What does that mean? This article could not be usefully merged with any other. It's for narratives which keep on being revived again and again time after time, no matter how effectively they've been refuted, or how little basis in fact they have. (This was clearer under the article's previous name.) AnonMoos (talk) 19:01, 4 November 2024 (UTC)
This page is about improving the article Antisemitic trope. Just as AnonMoos, I do not know what you mean by "this entry" being "under Trope", but maybe you want to improve the articles Trope, Libel, Canard, or Anti-semitism instead by linking to this article? It would be helpful if you learn the terms used by Misplaced Pages, such as "article", so people understand what you mean. --Hob Gadling (talk) 07:55, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Some irrelevant information in main section.

The last lines of the main section read: "The most recent example is the denial or trivialization of the October 7 massacres, with the victims overwhelmingly Jewish, including several Holocaust survivors."

I would change this to: "The most recent example is the denial or trivialization of the October 7 massacres, with the victims overwhelmingly Jewish."

Indeed, the fact that many victims were Holocaust survivors is irrelevant to the denial or trivialisation of October 7th atrocities.

Also, the cited source isn't of a good enough quality. Better sources should be found. ContiNuziali (talk) 18:33, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Antisemitism did not cause WWII

It's a bit disconcerting to read in the main section that "These tropes fatefully formed Adolf Hitler's worldview, caused WWII". Of course antisemitism was the base for the Holocaust but and instrumental for the rise of the Nazi party but nobody has ever argued that it caused WWII. ContiNuziali (talk) 00:13, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Doctrines of Lebensraum and Slavic Untermenschen, and a desire to get revenge on the French were most important in determining Hitler's aggressive policies which led to war. Once the war started, antisemitism had a big influence on how conquered territories were governed. AnonMoos (talk) 13:35, 9 November 2024 (UTC)
What you said isn't expressed by the passage at all though and still, I don't think any historian ever claimed that "these tropes causes WWII". I'd say it's even hard to argue that they caused in part WWII. 151.29.93.237 (talk) 17:33, 9 November 2024 (UTC)
  1. https://jewishjournal.com/news/united-states/372532/wikipedia-editors-label-adl-only-reliable-for-antisemitism-when-israel-and-zionism-are-not-concerned/
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