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{{WikiProject Jewish history|importance=High}} |
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== Image == |
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{{ping|Iskandar323}} I think we need to find a better/more modern map; this one gives off mythical vibes to it. ] (]) 10:27, 4 July 2024 (UTC) |
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:I'm a sucker for a ye olde map, but perhaps there's a less mythical one somewhere. I don't think we want anything too modern either though. This is about historic Palestine. ] (]) 17:37, 4 July 2024 (UTC) |
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::The map added as lead image a couple of days ago is the worst possible type of map for this article, as it is a Biblical / imaginary map. See ] for an explanation of the difference between those maps and the contemporary depictions that the cartography article focuses on. |
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::The boundaries of the region of Palestine changed over time, and in all periods had undefined borders on the south and east. The cartography article shows this well. Mandate Palestine was the first version of Palestine with known and clearly delineated eastern and southern borders. The Mandate Palestine borderline is also what defines today’s Palestinians. |
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::] (]) 18:47, 4 July 2024 (UTC) |
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:::I see I kicked the hornet's nest. That's all well and good. I was always interested in a discussion. That's what ] was for, but it received little response. The prior image was unclear, had a broken key, and was an obvious issue for the colour blind. That was three strikes. As for the image I replaced it with, I did think there might be a tad too much myth, though the history of Palestine surely reaches back into myth. I do not, by contrast, think that the should be undue emphasis on mandatory Palestine. That may define Palestinians, but it does not define historic Palestine. For much of its history, Palestine was taken to include northwestern Jordan, for instance. Mandatory Palestine is a mere 30-year snapshot out of thousands of years of history, and this is not the page on mandatory Palestine. ] (]) 19:28, 4 July 2024 (UTC) |
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::::I made ] back in 2012. Then I built the ] article in 2019-20. Agree it’s time for a fresh discussion. ] (]) 20:50, 4 July 2024 (UTC) |
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:::Thanks for taking me to ]. The map is gorgeous. I actually think something like this, slightly abstract, better reflects how the region of historic Palestine has been somewhat fluid in nature. ] (]) 19:34, 4 July 2024 (UTC) |
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::::Personally I am not a fan of the Ziegler map because, while a milestone in the cartographic history, it doesn’t depict a contemporary period – rather it is a mishmash of various older sources. ] (]) 20:52, 4 July 2024 (UTC) |
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:::The is also a rather joyous blend of German and Arabic, and also fairly accurate spatially. ] (]) 19:39, 4 July 2024 (UTC) |
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::::I'm also liking its co-location of names like Esdud and Azotus – it aggregates names across several eras. ] (]) 20:56, 4 July 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::Agreed. |
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:::::If we want the purest “classical” definition, the Ptolemy map is the place to go. It is also the only one with a boundary. It therefore bring huge educational value. The downside is that it is in Greek. |
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:::::In terms of modern maps, Jacotin was the big milestone. ] (]) 21:01, 4 July 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::Bachiene's map is good without the folds, but personally I found the previous map in WP template to be better, namely because it is spatially accurate and serves an exclusively informational purpose in showing just the region; while I find historical maps also have a (distracting) artistic side to it and also gives off a ] vibe to the topic. ] (]) 10:27, 5 July 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::::I'd say it's more Tolkien than Narnia, although I think that's a little of a discredit to the map maker, who I'm sure was trying their best with the information available. Incidentally, one issue with the previous map that I didn't mention is that I believe it got the Syria Palaestina boundaries (or those of its successors), slightly wrong. It also ignored the Islamic, including Ottoman Palestine, period, which, while somewhat ill-defined, is obviously a notable period. ] (]) 19:49, 5 July 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::::I also struggled to properly comprehend the old map. Also, no offense at all to the map maker, it is not about the map as much as it is about the map choice for a WP article, if you know what I mean. ] (]) 11:34, 6 July 2024 (UTC) |
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], where dashed green line shows the boundary between Byzantine ] (later ]) and ] (later ]), as well as ] (later Jebel et-Tih and the Jifar)}} |
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{{legend|border=darkred solid|white|Borders of ]}} |
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{{legend|border=blue dotted 2px|white|Borders between ] and the ] (] and ]) which are claimed by the ] as its borders}}]] |
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{{ping|Iskandar323}} do you think your concerns with the svg map could be addressed with specific improvements? |
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We could produce a list of proposed changes and then request help from the experts at ]. |
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] (]) 22:06, 6 July 2024 (UTC) |
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:Potentially. But where are we getting the information from? The sourcing notes on the current image file only appear to yield sources for the mandate period onwards. ] (]) 22:11, 6 July 2024 (UTC) |
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::I think we start from scratch on the sourcing. Misplaced Pages editors' knowledge of this topic has increased very significantly since the map was first created in 2012. ] (]) 23:18, 6 July 2024 (UTC) |
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:::Three questions come in mind and are all related to the pre-modern period since the Mandatory period and current borders will necessarily have to stay: |
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:::1) Were the three Palaestina Roman provinces ever considered one geographic territory; if not, is it possible for us to combine them and just simply say the three Roman provinces of.., instead of showing each? |
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:::2) Do we need an exact political boundary or can we use a geographic one similar to the ones used in Ottoman, or more preferably, older Greek maps, instead of the Roman provinces? |
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:::3) Were there any province in history that had the name Palestine in it over the past 2,000 years, other than Jund Filastin and the Roman provinces (the older the better)? ] (]) 08:38, 7 July 2024 (UTC) |
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::::{{ping|Makeandtoss}} historians have pieced together the classical provinces using the available fragments, without total clarity on the ever-changing borders - this is as true for Palestine as it is for all classical regions. For Palestine, we list the primary sources at ] - some give reasonably clear boundaries, such as Herodotus, Pliny, Plutarch, Pausanias, Ptolemy, Pomponius Mela. ] (]) 20:07, 7 July 2024 (UTC) |
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::::: has a very unusual boundary for Syria Palaestina. It's rather curious. Not sure how credible. ] (]) 20:14, 7 July 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::: is the 1865 book that the map accompanies. See "XXVI. Phoenice, Coelesyria, Decapolis, Iudaea Herodiadarum tempore". It doesn't explain the borders shown, but it is clear throughout that it is building on earlier 19th century scholarship. Those works were chronologically listed by Edward Robinson in 1841, Titus Tobler in 1867 and Reinhold Röhricht in 1890 (see the intro to ]). ] (]) 22:26, 7 July 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::::Yes, the carving out of Scythopolis is presumably based on something tangible – especially as it is consistent between the Roman Judaea (as a part of Decapolis) and Syria Palaestina (as a part of Arabia Petraea)-era maps. ] (]) 04:11, 8 July 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::Okay, interesting. Actually, maybe I overcomplicated this. Maybe there’s an abstract of a general Palestine region borders over the millennia in RS that we can use for the map? Or is it better to have something political and specific like a province? ] (]) 20:23, 7 July 2024 (UTC) |
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: I've stated my problem with the svg map before. Namely, I don't think that the information provided is enough to decode the green lines. That is, one cannot unambiguously label the regions based on that description. For example, is "Syria Palestina" the part inside the solid green lines or the whole region enclosed by any type of green line? On the other hand, I don't think we should start with a biblical myth map that extends even further north than Beirut. ]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 09:35, 7 July 2024 (UTC) |
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::@] @] @]: This has somewhat stalled hasn't it? Anyone have any suggestions on how best to progress? Do we want just a better, possibly less biblical old map, or do we want something bespoke from the graphics people? ] (]) 19:43, 22 July 2024 (UTC) |
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:::It has; I am more in favor of something with the WP template; but as we were discussing, the issue remains on the borders of Palestine prior to the British mandate; the older the reference the better. ] (]) 09:41, 23 July 2024 (UTC) |
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::::I liked the previous map that Oncenawhile made in 2012 showing the approximate borders of the region from the 1st to the 11th century AD. Its main problem, besides the colors, was that it included ] whose territorial extension goes beyond what the map shows. By excluding Salutris from the map and changing the line colors, this map could be used alongside the map from the Ottoman period in the infobox. I don't think we should use a map from the period before Christ since Palestine as an administrative unit did not yet exist. ] (]) 22:34, 23 July 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::I would be fine with this proposal. ] (]) 10:00, 31 July 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::Which map is being referred to here? ] (]) 07:51, 2 August 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::::{{reply|Makeandtoss}} This ]. ] (]) 14:48, 3 August 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::::{{ping|Onceinawhile}} {{ping|Mawer10}} So basically the removal of the below green dashed line but not the above? I would be inclined to remove both green dashed lines, which would make Palaestina I and II a single unit, and make the map much easier to comprehend. ] (]) 08:56, 4 August 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::::::I think the big question is what exactly we are trying to speak to with the image. The region of Palestine is a classically broad concept. The modern state of Palestine boundaries are specially something that is not being spoken to here. The mandatory ones are well defined but relatively fleeting in the overall historical arc. The Roman ones bounce around a little but have the pedigree of age and relative longevity on the historical record. In the mix, we are missing the Palestine that the Greek historians such as Herodotus spoke to, as well as what conceptions of Palestine existed in the Islamic period. All of this complexity, and the risk of editorial over-selectively or omission, is one reason why it could be safer to stick with a sourced image. ] (]) 10:11, 4 August 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::::::The image should portray three things: modern Palestine (1967), historic Palestine (1948), and ancient Palestine (whatever period whose borders can be defined, the earlier the better). |
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::::::::::As previously mentioned it seems that the only definable ancient Palestine is the Roman administrative provinces, in contrast to Herodotus' Palestine for example (unless the rough region is portrayed by some RS). |
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::::::::::While I agree it is safer to stick with a sourced image, which we have not found so far, I think the proposal to omit Palaestina III is the lesser evil, and we can avoid it being misleading by specifying in the caption that the portrayed region are of Palaestina I and II, and does not include Palaestine III. ] (]) 11:30, 4 August 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::::::::Why should it portray the post-1948 or post-1967 Palestinian territories? That isn't actually the subject here is it. ] (]) 11:59, 4 August 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::::::::I was referring to pre-1948 and post-1067. Because these are the two most prominent definitions of the Palestine region. Clearly, post-1967 is less relevant but wouldn't hurt to have it. ] (]) 12:09, 4 August 2024 (UTC) |
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:I would like to keep the line separating ] and ] on the map because they later became ] and ] respectively during Islamic rule until the 11th century. But for the sake of clarity of the map, I do not object to deleting the lines. An interesting fact is that the borders of Palestine proposed by the 1916 ] is almost identical to the borders of Roman Palestine, which shows its importance. ] (]) 15:28, 4 August 2024 (UTC) |
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::Very interesting, never noticed; although 1916 curiously cut II by half and avoided east of the Jordan river. I am also fine with either option, but now I am much more comfortable supporting deleting the lines between I and II given this piece of information. ] (]) 09:06, 5 August 2024 (UTC) |
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:::I am fine with this. On the question of the early sources that defined historical Palestine - much of it (everything I have found over the years) is quoted on ]. |
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:::The earliest surviving map in existence is a 700-year-old copy of Ptolemy's map, and no maps or their copies have come down to us from any earlier authors. Before Ptolemy we are reliant on quotes from narrative works, none of which are detailed enough to construct a detailed picture of the borders. Ptolemy, therefore, holds primacy in this question. ] (]) 20:07, 6 August 2024 (UTC) |
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::::Main problem with Ptolemy's map is that it is rough and does not show clearly defined borders, in contrast to the Roman provinces map. What are you suggesting? ] (]) 08:38, 7 August 2024 (UTC) |
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== Historic Palestine == |
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Historic Palestine is an alt name for the collective history of pre-1948 Palestine in all is vicissitudes and variations that is obviously used for natural disambiguation purposes vis-a-vis the modern Palestinian state (as exemplified in ). Is this then perhaps a better name than the current parenthetically disambiguated title? (Also bearing in mind that ] favours natural disambiguation.) Just throwing this out there informally at this point for input. Thoughts? ] (]) 19:18, 4 July 2024 (UTC) |
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:Tricky, this and (historical) are a bit troublesome, I mean I get it, but use is likely to lead to argument imo, especially if the pre 48 part (and I guess back to Herodotus) is not spelled out. We have SoP, Mandate and Roman links, maybe should be an Ottoman and such as well? ] (]) 19:36, 4 July 2024 (UTC) |
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::Yes, Ottoman Palestine is a bit of a gap, but for sure on the to-do list. ] (]) 19:52, 4 July 2024 (UTC) |
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:::Agreed. ] (]) 20:45, 4 July 2024 (UTC) |
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:While indeed often used in RS, it is less used than the more common name of just "Palestine". Also, this name would become to be used as it is, i.e. changes will be made to all articles linking to this one from to '''''', which would be redundant. But I understand the reasoning behind this proposed move, so maybe we can add Historic Palestine in the opening paragraph or other lede paragraphs instead? ] (]) 10:33, 5 July 2024 (UTC) |
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::I've already added it as an alt name. Perhaps that's enough for now. Not convinced on the merits of the move myself either. Might cause search trouble, and get confused with the history page. ] (]) 19:44, 5 July 2024 (UTC) |
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== Old map == |
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Please use a more recent map instead of one from 1750 ] (]) 09:02, 11 August 2024 (UTC) |
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:Maybe you are looking for ] rather than this article about the region. ] (]) 17:01, 11 August 2024 (UTC) |
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::yea I am ] (]) 12:04, 12 August 2024 (UTC) |
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== spelling errors == |
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Hi, I've noticed a few spelling errors in this article. I'm unable to correct them myself due to this page's protection policy so perhaps someone else can help with this: |
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<br>Note ii: change "tern" to "term" |
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<br>Note xx: change "Stale" to "State" |
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<br>Note xx: remove the full stop/period before "and reserving the right to..." |
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<br>Note xx: would the wording "and reserves the right to..." work better here? |
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<br>Thanks everyone! ] (]) 12:26, 23 August 2024 (UTC) |
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== "]" listed at ] == |
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== "]" listed at ] == |
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:::{{ping|Makeandtoss|Zero0000}} How about this? ] (]) 15:55, 4 October 2024 (UTC) |
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:::{{ping|Makeandtoss|Zero0000}} How about this? ] (]) 15:55, 4 October 2024 (UTC) |
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:Perfect, an improvement despite the small risk of OR for the green line. ] (]) 16:12, 4 October 2024 (UTC) |
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:It's good. The fine blue line could be made more prominent but it isn't necessary. ]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 01:19, 5 October 2024 (UTC) |
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::I just realized I have been confusing two things together; the Roman province of Syria Palestina and the Byzantine provinces of Palestina I and II. I thought they were the same thing. Since they are different, wouldn't it make sense just to have Roman province of Syria Palestina, as this would eliminate the OR risk when combing the Byzantine provinces I and II? Also how sure are we of the eastern borders of Syria Palestina, ] (]) 08:10, 5 October 2024 (UTC) |
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:::This is a good question and the heart of the challenge. Looking at the detail within ], you can see that Misplaced Pages's suggestion that the Roman province was formally called "Syria Palestina" - as opposed to just "Palestina" - has no primary evidence, as both names were in use at the time. I suspect the SP name in scholarly works came originally from ]. |
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:::Equally, the borders moved around over time, and there are no fixed lines. The best we can do is identify the best scholarly sources with these borders in them across all the available periods. ] (]) 14:10, 5 October 2024 (UTC) |
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::::We can go with the used at the ]'s article, i.e. the Jordan River. Updating the green borders to these ones should be the last improvement possible and the best outcome of this lengthy discussion. ] (]) 20:39, 5 October 2024 (UTC) |
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== Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 18 October 2024 == |
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{{Edit extended-protected|Palestine (region)|answered=yes}} |
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Could you please just modify “The holy land of israel” and you make it seem like israel is a country but not Palestine.🇵🇸 ] (]) 01:59, 18 October 2024 (UTC) |
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:] '''Not done''': it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a ] and provide a ] if appropriate.<!-- Template:EEp --> ] • ] • ] 03:22, 18 October 2024 (UTC) |
From the current version of the page:
"In the Hellenistic period, these names were carried over into Greek, appearing in the Histories of Herodotus in 5th century BCE as Palaistine. The Roman Empire conquered the region and in 6 CE established the province known as Judaea"
It would seem, reading this, that Judaea is a name made up by some Roman conqueror, while it's more likely the Romans conquered the region from locals who already refered to their homeland as Judea. Unless we are strictly European centered, in which case only what made it in European maps and history is what counts? Gezellig~hewiki (talk) 10:36, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
This map should replace the satellite image in the modern boundaries section. It is taken from a different page and has explanatory information not in the other maps: it shows the names used elsewhere in context along with the terrain and political regions.
The ones showing the evolutions of the border lack labels, and would be worse for them as they show the change over time. The one showing the population as a dot map is great but needs this map to show how the reality of where people live corresponds to the political debate.
I tried to replace the satellite image from the modern boundaries section but could not get the formatting to work. I would appreciate someone finding a good spot on the page or advising how to get the text flow to work. Mrflip (talk) 14:55, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
Mergers that factually end up being deletions, against the explicit decision at AfD, because nothing ever ends up being merged at all (the merge target is never even changed in response to the decision), are a loathsome pattern in Misplaced Pages. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 11:22, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
The 1750 map did not gain consensus per the various comments above, so I have added back the original svg map.
I understand that the svg map is preferred as it illustrates various periods, but could be simplified in certain areas and the color differential made clearer. Perhaps others could comment here, and once we have a clear set of changes agreed, we can improve the map further. Onceinawhile (talk) 09:38, 4 October 2024 (UTC)
Could you please just modify “The holy land of israel” and you make it seem like israel is a country but not Palestine.🇵🇸 Sam9472 (talk) 01:59, 18 October 2024 (UTC)
level-5 vital article is rated GA-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
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The redirect Israel and Palestine has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 September 3 § Israel and Palestine until a consensus is reached. — GodsyCONT) 07:02, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
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Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Kline • talk • contribs 03:22, 18 October 2024 (UTC)