Talk:Black people: Difference between revisions

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	== Black, White Or Both ==

	This may sound stupid but I have crossed countless people who have called themselves black althought they physically look white. So that made me ask:
	Can a person who looks white but has black people in their bloodline be labeled “black?” ] (]) 11:16, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

	:As our article makes entirely clear, 'Blackness' is ultimately a social construct. What constitutes 'looking black' (or 'looking white') varies from place to place, and time to time. It is routinely contested. Attempts to divide humanity with its complex patterns of diversity into simplistic binary categories are rooted in the realms of politics, not science. And to be more specific with regards to your question, there have been contexts where having any 'black people in your bloodline' made you 'black' in the eyes of (white) social norms, regardless of appearance, and regardless of any own personal identification: see the so-called ] in the United States. 'Appearance' is but a small part of what society constructs its arbitrary racial categories from. ] (]) 13:05, 9 September 2023 (UTC)
	:What's the difference of black people and African people ] (]) 23:58, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
	::The difference is like that between being white and being European. Not all white people are European, and not all Europeans are white, although whiteness is generally thought to apply to Europeans and people of European descent.
	::More specifically, Africans may or may not be Black (e.g., white South Africans). And even if we might consider them Black, they may not consider themselves to be Black. Blackness is a relative term that was invited by Europeans, so it doesn't apply universally. I have known Africans who said they only "became" Black when they moved to the UK, because they didn't see themselves as part of a wider Black race before that (they saw themselves as Nigerian, or Igbo, etc).
	::While Nigerians and Kenyans may see themselves as distinct in Africa, if they moved to Germany or the USA, they may later find/gain/develop a shared Black identity, because their skin colour and the prejudice they face because of it may make them feel greater solidarity with each other. National and regional differences become less important than the shared experiences they have in white majority societies.
	::Similarly, some Black people in the diaspora don't see themselves as African, even though they have African descent. E.g., Black Caribbeans may see themselves as uniquely Caribbean, even if they have African heritage.
	::A very simplistic way to look at it is (assuming people of sub-Saharan African descent):
	::*In Africa, such people tend to see themselves as African and they may or may not see themselves as Black
	::*In the diaspora, such people tend to see themselves as Black and they may or may not see themselves as African
	::*Others may not see you the same way you see yourself
	::*Moving to the diaspora may change how you see yourself
	::*In either case, "Blackness" is relative to another population so it's not a universal experience ] (]) 06:23, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

	== Black as a Social class in South Africa ==		== Black as a Social class in South Africa ==
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	::::I understand and accpt hat language changes. MY real question was, when did this particular change in acceptability happen? ] (]) 07:18, 1 November 2024 (UTC)		::::I understand and accpt hat language changes. MY real question was, when did this particular change in acceptability happen? ] (]) 07:18, 1 November 2024 (UTC)
	:::::I dunno, when was the last time you heard "blacks" used commonly in everyday life? To be honest, I can understand why a black person might not want to be just called a "black". I'd be more than a bit annoyed if someone called me a "white" instead of making even a half-hearted attempt to refer to me by any other defining characteristic. ] (]) 07:23, 1 November 2024 (UTC)		:::::I dunno, when was the last time you heard "blacks" used commonly in everyday life? To be honest, I can understand why a black person might not want to be just called a "black". I'd be more than a bit annoyed if someone called me a "white" instead of making even a half-hearted attempt to refer to me by any other defining characteristic. ] (]) 07:23, 1 November 2024 (UTC)
			:::::{{midsize\|I've no real personal insight here, but these things aren't binary switches. What is observed as a sea-change is instead like reaching critical mass, maybe as the direct result of many people becoming aware or changing their mind in a short amount of time, but likely just as much if not more some mere signal of preexisting perspectives catching on in the media. A thinkpiece, a sitcom quip, whatever—unfortunately those are the events people notice as regards these things. What I'm saying is there's potentially no answer for you—different folks have different feelings and different explanations. From what I intuit from reading memoirs, it was always possible for this choice of language to confer this particular meaning. }} <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff"> ‥ </span>]</span> 07:26, 1 November 2024 (UTC)
	:::It doesn't seem particularly contingent or peculiar to me that a ]-as-demonym can become offensive. I really wouldn't read much more than that into it, it's not particularly complicated or particularly American. I'll steal these citations from ]:		:::It doesn't seem particularly contingent or peculiar to me that a ]-as-demonym can become offensive. I really wouldn't read much more than that into it, it's not particularly complicated or particularly American. I'll steal these citations from ]:
	:::* ''Merriam-Webster Online'': {{xt\|Use of the noun Black in the singular to refer to a person is considered offensive. The plural form Blacks is still commonly used by Black people and others to refer to Black people as a group or community, but the plural form too is increasingly considered offensive, and most style guides advise writers to use Black people rather than Blacks when practical.}}		:::* ''Merriam-Webster Online'': {{xt\|Use of the noun Black in the singular to refer to a person is considered offensive. The plural form Blacks is still commonly used by Black people and others to refer to Black people as a group or community, but the plural form too is increasingly considered offensive, and most style guides advise writers to use Black people rather than Blacks when practical.}}
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	:::* ''AP Stylebook'': {{xt\|Do not use as a singular noun.}}		:::* ''AP Stylebook'': {{xt\|Do not use as a singular noun.}}
	:::<span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff"> ‥ </span>]</span> 06:19, 1 November 2024 (UTC)		:::<span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff"> ‥ </span>]</span> 06:19, 1 November 2024 (UTC)
			::::] <span style="font-weight:bold;color:darkblue">]</span>🍁 15:31, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

			== Why don't we have a picture of some black people in the info box? ==

			for example how the page for "<nowiki>'''human'''", or "'''woman'''" or "'''child'''</nowiki>" has a picture of what they look like ] (]) 02:58, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

			:Which ones? ] (]) 03:00, 27 November 2024 (UTC)
			:::Pls review ].
			::<span style="font-weight:bold;color:darkblue">]</span>🍁 04:03, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 02:34, 20 December 2024

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To-do list for Black people: edit · history · watch · refresh · Updated 2020-09-23

Find and add citations to reliable sources.
Remove unverifiable material and original research.
Show a multi dimensional view of Black people across the world, not merely an American perspective.
Remove "undue weight" per WP:CSB and WP:NPOV.
Give more information on the diversity of peoples within African, e.g. Khoisan, Bantu, Pygmy, etc.
Remove the comment about underestimation of strength of Black men - out of context and contributes to racist stereotypes

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Black as a Social class in South Africa

In 1950, the Apartheid government of South Africa introduced the Population Registration Act No.30 which effectively forced the Xhosa people and other nations organic to the land to be registered under the National Socialist system into either one of four categories, Black, White, Colored and Asian.

This Act effectively alienated the Xhosa people from their collective identity as a nation unto themselves and forced the label "Black African" on them as a social and legal status.

This Act not only alienated the Xhosa from their collective identity but also from their resources and property as well with the implementation of the Black Codes from the 1913 Black's land Act and Groups Areas Act.

This has been the cause of cultural erosion in this community and has prevented the redressing of many injustices that were committed against the Xhosa people. Benjamin knox (talk) 23:34, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Is this text you wish to add to the article? If so, do you have sources for the above? I can add it if you do, and if it still needs doing. Lewisguile (talk) 19:53, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

"Blacks"

Want to recommend that someone with more access than me double-check this article to ensure that the preferred term "Black people" (or another noun as appropriate in place of "people") is always used over "blacks," except in context like quotes, titles, or the South Africa section where Blacks had a formal legal status. The US National Archives defines "blacks" as an offensive term that should always be capitalized and replaced with "Black people." TheMiddleWest (talk) 18:28, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

Really? This older Australian (who doesn't want to offend anyone) truly finds it hard to keep up what's OK and what's not in America. When did "blacks" become offensive? HiLo48 (talk) 06:00, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

I guess that calling black people "blacks" has the same kind of vibe as calling the Aboriginal people in Australia "Aborigines". While we might not see any real issue with it, the people it's used to refer to might have their own reservations about being called such. I will admit that America's increasingly common and almost impulsive "knight in shining armour" response to anything considered offensive nowadays is more than a bit excessive, but here, I see no real problem here with @TheMiddleWest's request from the perspective I just presented. Sirocco745 (talk) 06:09, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

I understand and accpt hat language changes. MY real question was, when did this particular change in acceptability happen? HiLo48 (talk) 07:18, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

I dunno, when was the last time you heard "blacks" used commonly in everyday life? To be honest, I can understand why a black person might not want to be just called a "black". I'd be more than a bit annoyed if someone called me a "white" instead of making even a half-hearted attempt to refer to me by any other defining characteristic. Sirocco745 (talk) 07:23, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

I've no real personal insight here, but these things aren't binary switches. What is observed as a sea-change is instead like reaching critical mass, maybe as the direct result of many people becoming aware or changing their mind in a short amount of time, but likely just as much if not more some mere signal of preexisting perspectives catching on in the media. A thinkpiece, a sitcom quip, whatever—unfortunately those are the events people notice as regards these things. What I'm saying is there's potentially no answer for you—different folks have different feelings and different explanations. From what I intuit from reading memoirs, it was always possible for this choice of language to confer this particular meaning. Remsense ‥ 论 07:26, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

It doesn't seem particularly contingent or peculiar to me that a mass noun-as-demonym can become offensive. I really wouldn't read much more than that into it, it's not particularly complicated or particularly American. I'll steal these citations from wikt:black#Noun:

Merriam-Webster Online: Use of the noun Black in the singular to refer to a person is considered offensive. The plural form Blacks is still commonly used by Black people and others to refer to Black people as a group or community, but the plural form too is increasingly considered offensive, and most style guides advise writers to use Black people rather than Blacks when practical.
Oxford Learner's Dictionaries: Using the noun black to refer to people with dark skin can be offensive, so it is better to use the adjective: black people • a black man/woman. It is especially offensive to use the noun with the definite article ('the blacks')
Dictionary.com: As a noun, however, it does often offend. The use of the plural noun without an article is somewhat more accepted (home ownership among Blacks); however, the plural noun with an article is more likely to offend (political issues affecting the Blacks), and the singular noun is especially likely to offend (The small business proprietor is a Black). Use the adjective instead: Black homeowners, Black voters, a Black business proprietor.
AP Stylebook: Do not use as a singular noun.

Remsense ‥ 论 06:19, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style/Canada-related articles#Capitalization Moxy🍁 15:31, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Why don't we have a picture of some black people in the info box?

for example how the page for "'''human'''", or "'''woman'''" or "'''child'''" has a picture of what they look like Finnigami (talk) 02:58, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Which ones? HiLo48 (talk) 03:00, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Pls review MOS:PEOPLEGALLERY.

Moxy🍁 04:03, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

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