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== Eugene Lipov == | ||
(Note: I received significant assistance in writing the material below from a M.D, who chooses to remain anonymous rather than publicly attacking another doctor. Any errors in the following are mine.) | |||
Editors are requested to take a look at ] and ensure compliance with NPOV. I do not see any violations of the policy but as the primary author of the article, I might be biased. Thanks, ] (]) 11:17, 1 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
Our ] article uncritically presents stellate ganglion block therapy as if it was a well established medical treatment for ]. It appears to be an experimental treatment with very little support from the medical community, yet Dr. Lipov is selling these treatments for PTSD ( https://stellacenter.com/treatments/sgb-dual-sympathetic-reset ) and ] ( https://stellacenter.com/treatments/long-covid ) at 22 locations in the US. | |||
:it seems fair and balanced. ] (]) 13:42, 1 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:"Knowing yourself is the beginning of all wisdom." – Aristotle ] (]) 20:01, 1 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:This is a well rounded article. Nice work! ] (]) 09:54, 16 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
The American Psychological Association strongly recommends four interventions for treating post traumatic stress disorder, and conditionally recommends another four. See Stellate ganglion block therapy not on the list. | |||
== ] and pages on Kennedy family as well as JFK descendants == | |||
] and neutrality issues currently being discussed at ] regarding due weight of including trivial mentions and magazine commentaries. Additional input would be appreciated, there, or here. Similar issues with various pages about Kennedy related families and descendants of Kennedy. ] (]) 18:15, 3 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
The list of publications cited by Dr. Lipov to support the use of Stellate Ganglion blocks for the treatment of PTSD ( https://dreugenelipov.com/publications-2024/ ) is rather unimpressive. Dr. Lipov has been using this technique since 2008 and has given thousands of injections but there are no references to any long term outcomes data for his own patient population on his list of citations. There are ZERO references which specifically review patients treated with the "Dual Sympathetic Reset" technique. | |||
:It seems like things have improved. If this is an ongoing issue on other Kennedy articles, you might point out that if the info is already listed in the info-box it creates a redundancy and ] to have it all in the same spot twice. ] (]) 16:18, 9 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::Shortly after this discussion was started, it was found that a second account was being used by the article creator to bypass consensus building, then a ]. ] (]) 17:31, 12 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
Despite the claim that, "Stella aims to heal the injury, instead of just managing the symptoms", one of the papers listed as a citation on the Stella Center web page concludes that "stellate ganglion blocks are NOT a "cure" for PTSD... but have the potential to significantly reduce symptoms as part of the treatment plan for combat related PTSD". | |||
== Repressed Memory == | |||
{{atop | |||
| result = OP has stated on their Talk page that they "will not continue with my attempts to update the article at this time," so this can be closed. ] (]) 12:25, 15 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
}} | |||
I have been trying to bring the ] article up to date as it violates the neutral point of view policy and contains misleading, factually incorrect and unsupported assertions. | |||
Although one of the cofounders of the Stella center is a PhD psychologist and the website has the tagline, "Highly effective evidence based mental health care", there are no studies from the psychiatric literature referenced on the website. | |||
Extensive discussions on the ] page have been unsuccessful and I have been accused of edit warring, dishonesty, trolling and insulting other editors, despite trying to respond to the criticisms in good faith. I am finding that editorial processes are being used to shut down the argument and take it away from an evidence based discussion about the content. Attempts to resolve this through DR were unsuccessful as the opposing editors chose not to engage. | |||
Insurance companies won’t pay for Stellate ganglion block injections because published studies documenting their effectiveness are lacking, and because long term effects are completely unknown. A well controlled randomized and double blind study published in 2016 concluded that: | |||
This is a serious issue, associated with trauma and PTSD, and the medical misinformation that is currently embedded in the article has the potential to cause harm. Some input would therefore be appreciated as this is not the first time an editor has attempted to bring in a NPOV, to no avail. ] (]) 06:36, 9 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:Therapists who believe in repressed memories have already caused harm and are not doing serious science. See ], ], ] and ], which are all based on the same set of dubious techniques that supposedly make people regain memories but actually makes them fantasize the specific things the therapist believes in (aliens, Satanist cults, reincarnation, whatever). As with other pseudosciences, there is a lot of attempts to introduce ] in all those articles. --] (]) 06:59, 9 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::I'm interested in your opinion on the lead sentence, since it refers to the subject as "controversial". I'm dealing with a similar issue in terms of navigating ] and ]. Under the umbrella of pseudoscience, I think this may be justified, but is this the only type of exception to the rule? ] (]) 07:26, 9 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::The subject of repressed memory is considered by some to be controversial, but it is not scientifically discredited as the lead suggests. Some psychologists still believe that repression is the mechanism by which memories are unavailable for a period of time, but dissociative amnesia is the current scientific explanation for the phenomena of recovered memories. I'm not sure it directly relates to your query DN as this isn't pseudoscience but hopefully this helps. ] (]) 07:54, 9 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::Use of the term "some" in that context is something we should try to avoid. See ]. Cheers. ] (]) 07:59, 9 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::"Bogus" is probably a better word: controversial implies there are legitimate voice on both sides. ] (]) 08:00, 9 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::Exactly. "Controversial" is false balance. --] (]) 11:38, 9 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::Hob Gadling, as we have discussed on the talk page, presenting information from respected books and journals in the field of psychiatry and psychology is not pseudoscience and it is not presenting ]. I understand that this is your belief and you clearly have a strong opinion about this, but I respectfully ask that you bring evidence and not just your opinion as much of what you are saying is conjecture. ] (]) 08:03, 9 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::The correct criterion for books and journals as sources is not that the user NpsychC respects them. Neither is "strong opinion" defined as what the user NpsychC disagrees with. --] (]) 11:38, 9 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:Do we not have at least two articles on this? ] (]) 10:34, 9 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::I think we have dissociative amnesia and repressed memory. Is that what you mean Slatersteven? ] (]) 11:34, 9 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:{{Grey|(not my topic area; don't know how I got here)}} Unless I'm misunderstanding, we seem to have ] about a legit psychological phenomenon, and ] about a discredited theory.{{pb}}{{u|NpsychC}}, I see you've been trying to add Staniloiu and Markowitsch 2014 at {{DOI|10.1016/S2215-0366(14)70279-2}} and McElvaney 2015 at {{DOI|10.1002/car.2280}} to the article under discussion here, while these sources are not cited at ]. Should they be? Is that a better or less better place to cite them?{{pb}}Would it help resolve this to include further prose disambiguation between the idea of repressed memory and the phenomenon of dissociative amnesia as currently understood? There seem to be several locations in the article ] where it is (confusingly? accurately?) identified with dissociative amnesia – in prose, in source titles, in direct quotes – and only one wikilink to the ] article anywhere on the page.{{pb}}As a non-expert, it seems pretty unclear to me, based on <del>reading</del> {{ins|skimming}} this article, the major differences between these ideas. That could probably be handled better. (I could also actually read both articles before commenting 💁🏽♀️) ] (]) 10:53, 9 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::Thank you for your thoughts Folly Mox. Part of the reason I sought to clean up the article is because repressed memory is a lay term that is often used interchangeably with recovered memory in both professional and non-professional settings (hence the confusion). The article as it reads, implies that the process of a memory being out of awareness for a period of time (recovered memory) is scientifically discredited, without any clear references to support this position and without showing it to be an issue for which there is contention in the literature. The article also does not state that dissociative amnesia is the current scientific explanation for the phenomena. I think the articles by Stanilou, Markowitsch and McElvaney could absolutely be added to the dissociative amnesia page, but my main aim was to clear up the misinformation on this page. Repression is one explanation for recovered memory which has fallen out of favour, while dissociative amnesia is another, more current explanation based on a large body of evidence and as stated by the American Psychiatric Association (DSM-5) which has a rigorous scientific review process behind it. The whole article is a bit messy, but the lead was my first priority as it is what most people read and held the most bias. ] (]) 11:32, 9 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::The problem with your editing remains that it is ] - the sources you cite do not specifically make the points you are attempting to use them to support. I've explained that at ], but you have not meaningfully engaged with that issue so far. ] (]) 11:35, 9 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::This is blatantly untrue. I have explained this twice link at ] and provided references to back this up, including one that is already in the article. You had an opportunity to go over this in dispute resolution but refused. Not understanding the scientific literature in an area is not a reason to continue to ignore a whole body of evidence that you don't like and is an abuse of editorial processes. ] (]) 11:51, 9 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::You have explained the chain of reasoning that has lead you to your beliefs about Repressed memory - but it is not to be found in the sources you cite. And you cannot dismiss other editors or their arguments by asserting that they do not understand the literature. ] (]) 12:03, 9 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::Critics of dissociative amnesia (for example ) would tell you that there is no difference, and the term is an attempt to rebrand the same discredited ideas. A bit like 'Alternative medicine' vs 'Complementary medicine'. ] (]) 11:32, 9 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::Or more like an 'old theory' vs 'new theory'. ] (]) 11:39, 9 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::''Critics of dissociative amnesia (for example </nowiki>]) would tell you that there is no difference, and the term is an attempt to rebrand the same discredited ideas. A bit like 'Alternative medicine' vs 'Complementary medicine'.'' | |||
:::And in writing this, you yourself just proved the link that you are criticising and calling WP:OR ] (]) 11:53, 9 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::To be clear, my understanding of the WP:OR criticism is that I had not demonstrated a link between repressed memory and dissociative amnesia. The literature is littered with these links, including the ones put forward in the discussion, and so this feels like a using an editorial process to shut down the discussion and ignore whole raft of evidence that would establish a neutral point of view. ] (]) 12:01, 9 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::You have completely misunderstood the ], then. It is not about demonstrating a link or not. If you feel you have to demonstrate a link to use the citations in question means that the citations in question do not stand alone and you are performing ]. ] (]) 12:06, 9 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::You keep reverting to process MrOllie and once again, respectfully, you had an opportunity on the talk page and in DR to work with me to bring the article to a place where it does not violate the neutral point of view. You continually revert back to editorial processes (which is a clear strength of yours) and refuse to properly engage in the content. ] (]) 12:19, 9 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::::I have directly asked for a quote supporting the edit, but none has been provided. ] (]) 12:21, 9 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::Yes, you stopped responding there, so here we are. ] (]) 12:22, 9 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
HOw about letting others have a say? ] (]) 11:54, 9 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
"Although previous case series have suggested that Stellate Ganglion Block offers an effective intervention for PTSD, this study did not demonstrate any appreciable difference between Stellate ganglion blocks and sham treatment on psychological or pain outcomes." . | |||
Having said that, lets have a quote form one of the sources supporting the edit? ] (]) 11:54, 9 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
Approximately 125,000 veterans are currently diagnosed with PTSD, and both the Veterans Administration and the department of defense are highly motivated to find and implement reliable treatments for the devastating condition. However, the official 2024 VA position statement on Stellate ganglion blocks was: | |||
:Localized dissociative amnesia applies to memory loss for a “circumscribed period of time” and may be broader than amnesia for a single traumatic event, for example, “months or years associated with child abuse” (p. 298). Because localized dissociative amnesia most resembles what was formerly called repressed memory, it is noteworthy that the DSM–5 calls this type “the most common form of dissociative amnesia.” ] (]) 12:22, 9 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::doi: ] This is a direct quote from the article. ] (]) 12:24, 9 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::And what did the edit say, what is this being used to cite? ] (]) 12:29, 9 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::Apologies, I am trying to do more than one thing at once. | |||
::::"Localized dissociative amnesia applies to memory loss for a “circumscribed period of time” and may be broader than amnesia for a single traumatic event, for example, “months or years associated with child abuse” (p. 298). Because localized dissociative amnesia most resembles what was formerly called repressed memory, it is noteworthy that the DSM–5 calls this type “the most common form of dissociative amnesia.” | |||
::::The page reference is referring to the DSM-5 and describes how dissociative amnesia is now used to describe repressed memory. This article supports the position that there is <u>contention</u> in the literature about whether repressed memory/dissociative amnesia is a valid phenomena. The article currently reads as though repressed memory is scientifically discredited. This is what my edits are based on. ] (]) 12:37, 9 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::The article reads that way because the best sources read that way. Here's another quote from the same source you just quoted here: {{Tq|A relevant question is how flawed ideas regarding the functioning of memory could be corrected. That unconscious repressed memory is still accepted with little qualification and remains popular among many mental-health professionals can be explained in part by the now well-replicated finding that it is typically difficult to correct erroneous beliefs.}} ] (]) 12:40, 9 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::Thank you MrOllie for engaging in the content of this. This article does indeed provide an argument that unconscious repressed memory is flawed and is one position in the literature. ] (]) 12:45, 9 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::THis seems to be about rebranding repressed memory as dissociative amnesia instead, not that it is valid. This looks a lot like ]. ] (]) 12:44, 9 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::It is not cherry picking. I am doing this quickly, and will have to go soon for a while but please consider the following from Stanilou and Markowitsch (2024) in the Topics in Cognitive Science Journal: | |||
::::::"There is an ongoing debate on the old idea that memories can be repressed or suppressed (Dodier, Gilet, & Colombel, 2022; Erdelyi, 2006; Freud, 1898, 1899; Hartmann, 1930; Jung,1905; Kunzendorf & Moran, 1993/94; Loftus, 1993, 1994; Markowitsch, 2000; Otgaar et al., 2019; Suarez & Pittluck, 1975). We will argue for the existence of repressed memories on the basis of the dissociative condition named “dissociative amnesia” (DA) (Markowitsch & Staniloiu, 2016; Markowitsch, Staniloiu, Kordon, & Sarlon, 2018; Staniloiu & Markow- itsch, 2014; Staniloiu & Markowitsch, 2022; Staniloiu, Markowitsch, & Kordon, 2018). By doing so, we will center on Tulving’s (2002, 2005) and Semon’s (1904) concept of the state dependency of memories, on the relation between stress and memory (Staniloiu, Kordon, & Markowitsch, 2020b), mechanisms by which DA is likely to occur (“Two-hit hypothesis”) and differential diagnostic criteria for the occurrence of DA. | |||
::::::We are of the opinion that our arguments favor the existence of repressed memories in the context of DA and that there are cognitive and biological bases demonstrating that repressed memories are a valid entity in the context of DA." | |||
::::::Their research showed physiological changes in the brain using functional imaging techniques for those with dissociative amnesia. I am not asking that the article removes the argument that recovered memories are not valid, it is an important position in the literature and there should continue to be debate about this. I am just asking that the article be updated so it doesn't violate the neutral point of view policy. ] (]) 12:55, 9 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::::Then you need to give the text you want to add, not just tell us you want to add it. ] (]) 12:59, 9 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::I have outlined the changed I am proposing in ]. Are you asking me to post the edits and research backing the changes here again? ] (]) 20:43, 9 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::Staniloiu and Markowitsch argued in their 2014 article titled 'Dissociative Amnesia' in Lancet Psychiatry that "Dissociative amnesia is characterised by functional impairment. Additionally, preliminary data suggest that affected people have an increased and possibly underestimated suicide risk." This highlights the importance of the misinformation in the wikipedia article being corrected. I hope those who are critical of the update can now see the validity of the changes and will cease trying to prevent the updates. ] (]) 21:17, 9 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::This essentially amounts to "if you do not change the article the way I want it, people will kill themselves". The way you frame it: {{tq|This highlights the importance of the misinformation in the wikipedia article being corrected}}, when you have not demonstrated that there is any "misinformation" in the article, does not bode well for your article editing. --] (]) 06:47, 10 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::Hob Gadling, this isn't a personal attack. I am merely using evidence to show that this is a serious issue, and that misinformation for a vulnerable population could have real world consequences. I have provided evidence to answer all content related criticisms, but there appears serious gatekeeping going on with this page. This is a direct violation of NPOV and has the potential to cause harm. I think it is best if we don't interact further on here and give other editors a chance to provide input about NPOV. ] (]) 07:31, 10 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::No, just the text you want to add, so we do not have to wade through a talk page to find it. ] (]) 09:49, 10 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::::1) Removal of the links at the top of the article to ''Freud's Seduction Hypothesis'' and ''Recovered Memory Therapy'', and replaced with ''Dissociative Amnesia''. Dissociative Amnesia is a better link than seduction hypothesis or recovered memory therapy as these are not current issues associated with the discourse around traumatic memory. | |||
::::::::::::2) The 2nd paragraph needs considerable rewording. The first sentence is categorically untrue as can be seen from the evidence already submitted here but is also articulated by the American Psychiatric Association (DSM-5-TR, 2022) through the diagnosis of dissociative amnesia . The idea that memories were ''repressed'' reflects the discourse and understanding at the time when the majority of the research in this article was published. The idea of repression as a psychological process is no longer held by all psychological modalities and dissociative processes have been discussed in the literature from at least 1996 The article should be clear therefore that these types of memories are now called dissociative amnesia. It is misleading to state that repressed memories are largely scientifically discredited as it implies that memories that have a delayed recall are never valid. The words 'and largely scientifically discredited' should therefore be removed from the first sentence. I also propose that the term dissociative amnesia be introduced early into the text so that the distinction between a repressed memory, and the idea that a memory may be unavailable for a period of time, is clear (ie. the difference between the lay term repressed memory and the psychological mechanism of repression). | |||
::::::::::::3) In the 3rd paragraph it states that mainstream clinical psychologists have stopped using the concept of repressed or recovered memories. This is not true and is backed up by evidence in the text. Also, it once again reads like delayed memory retrieval/dissociative amnesia is no longer valid. The resource for this paragraph is a letter written by a clinical psychologist to the courts twenty years ago, not a peer reviewed article. This whole paragraph is also inflammatory and conflates recovered memory therapy with repressed memories without bringing in dissociative amnesia or current research. ] (]) 10:44, 10 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::::Why could you now have just said what text you want to say? What do you want us to say the actual text using the words you want to use, not the justification, to the explanation just the actual text. ] (]) 10:48, 10 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::::::''See also: Repression, Dissociative Amnesia'' | |||
::::::::::::::'''Repressed memory''' is a psychiatric phenomenon that has evoked much controversy, and which involves an inability to recall autobiographical information, usually of a traumatic or stressful nature. The concept originated in psychoanalytic theory where repression is understood as a defense mechanism that excludes painful experiences and unacceptable impulses from consciousness. The return of these memories to consciousness is also referred to as recovered memories, while the process by which they are out of awareness was considered repression. More recently this phenomenon is considered to be explained by the diagnosis of Dissociative Amnesia, where the inability to recall personal information is due to dissociative processes and is inconsistent with ordinary forgetting. | |||
::::::::::::::While the concept of repressed memories was highly contested through much of the 1980s and 1990's, there is now a significant body of evidence that supports the idea that memories for traumatic events can be out of conscious awareness for a period of time. Historically, some overzealous therapists are thought to have provided therapy based on the belief that alleged repressed memories could be recovered, but that in seeking these memories this led to the creation of entirely false memories. This has had implications in forensic settings, where the validity of these memories has been the subject of much controversy and debate. ] (]) 11:07, 10 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::::::The references are all above, but I will add those in when I have more time and before making the edits. ] (]) 11:08, 10 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::::::::It will need to be added that recovered memories for trauma is still contested in the literature, but I think it can be done in a better way that the article currently reads. It would need this to establish a NPOV, but I will have to come back to flesh it out further. ] (]) 11:17, 10 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::::::::Well as some (all?), of the sources you are using just seem to be saying that its a rebranding, no I am not sure this does pass ]. They would support "Repressed memory has been rebranded Dissociative Amnesia". ] (]) 11:21, 10 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::::::::::Are you saying that the article as it currently reads does not violate NPOV based on the research I have brought in here? ] (]) 11:23, 10 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::::::::::Repression and dissociative are different psychological processes, so rebranding isn't quite right... ] (]) 11:24, 10 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::::::::::::"We propose that during and after the 1990s, when the term repressed memory was widely criticized, proponents began to favor the term dissociative amnesia instead.", if you can't even be arsed to read the sources you use, then I am out of here with a no to this suggestion, It fails ]] as it is ]. ] (]) 11:28, 10 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::::::::::::That is one argument, that there has been a rebranding. WP:UNDUE would dictate that "''all'' significant viewpoints that have been published by ]," should be included for neutrality. There is a whole body of research, including the DSM-5 and functional imaging results that support the idea of dissociation and associated amnesia. That is not rebranding, it is the evolving science of psychology. Please don't accuse me of not being "arsed" to read the sources. It is totally missing the point of my position. Once again, I would like to ask, given the research outlined above from reputable sources, is your position that the repressed memory article, as it currently reads, does not violate a NPOV? ] (]) 11:43, 10 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
{{abot}} | |||
"Stellate ganglion blocks may have short term benefits for some individuals with PTSD, but it is not an established treatment at this time because the evidence is not conclusive. Stellate ganglion blocks have not been fully researched in Veterans with PTSD and the long term effects of stellate ganglion blocks are currently unknown"... "Currently, individuals with PTSD should be strongly encouraged to try established, and recommended treatments such as trauma-focused psychotherapy and medications. For Veterans that don't benefit from these traditional treatments, alternative interventions such as SGB might be considered". Source: | |||
== Grooming gang moral panic in the United Kingdom == | |||
{{atopy | |||
| result = This discussion doesn't belong here. '']''<sup>]</sup> 01:53, 12 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
}} | |||
In my opinion, the ] article should present SGB as an unproven experimental procedure, and we should consider creating a ] stub article with ] redirecting to it. --] (]) 19:10, 27 November 2024 (UTC) | |||
According to the latest census, 81% of the UK population identify as white. One would expect that the majority of crimes would be carried out by this demographic. However, mainly Muslim men, many of Pakistani origin, who represent less than 3.5% of the UK population, were disproportionally represented in sexual assaults against tens of thousands of white girls as young as 11 years old over many decades. To suggest that this systematic abuse resulted in a moral panic is not only factually incorrect but is also an insult to all those children that were abused by these pedophiles and let down by social services who were scared to act for fear of being called racist. ] (]) 11:56, 9 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:] "Defendants were predominantly male (99%) and aged over 18 (97%), as in previous years. Five in six (83%) were White British...". ] (]) 12:00, 9 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::{{u|Slatersteven}}, I think adding that very clear context (81% and 83%) in the lede would help quell the complaints about the title of the article. At present, the critics of the article seem to believe there is a disproportion sexual offending rate by non-whites. ] (]) 22:53, 10 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::Or we just say what RS say, that it's a conspiracy theory, we do not need to pander to them. ] (]) 09:38, 11 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:The majority of child sex offences (80%+) and the majority of grooming offences (80%+) are commited by white offenders. Asian / Muslim / Pakistani (or whichever term the media is using) are slightly over represented in grooming cases, but that still only accounts for roughly 10% of such cases. | |||
:That so many believe otherwise is because the recent high profile cases are all that the media has reported on, while ignoring the majority of crimes. Hyper focusing on those cases hides rather than highlights the extent of the issue. That is why there is an article about it. | |||
:If you want to know about such crimes there are articles about all the cases involved, and about sexual abuse in the UK in general. If you want to know about how the media over and under reports such crimes, then you can read the article that certain parts of the media are so upset about. -- <small>LCU</small> ''']''' <small>''«]» °]°''</small> 16:59, 9 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:@ip, do you have any data supporting your claim that "mainly Muslim men, many of Pakistani origin, who represent less than 3.5% of the UK population, were disproportionally represented in sexual assaults against tens of thousands of white girls as young as 11 years old over many decades"? | |||
:@], I don't the the breakdown of grooming offenses by race in the document linked by u:Slatersteven, where do your numbers come from ("still only accounts for roughly 10% of such cases")? ]<sub>]</sub> 20:20, 9 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::See ], this is spill over from a discussion on the articles talk page. The exact figure (from very poor data) is that Asian's account for 14% or grooming cases, but it's easier to talk in rounded figures. There also more information in ]. -- <small>LCU</small> ''']''' <small>''«]» °]°''</small> 22:01, 9 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
FWIW, the RM has really upset online nazis, and we can't really divorce any discussion about the article at the moment from that. ''']''' (]) 22:16, 9 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
: |
:Are there any meta-analyses of experimental data for this one? ] (]) 19:16, 27 November 2024 (UTC) | ||
{{abot}} | |||
::I haven't been able to find one. Certainly not for Long COVID; nobody but Eugene Lipov seems to believe that sticking a needle in your ] is a reasonable way of treating Long COVID. For PTSD, the best that I could find was https://www.hsrd.research.va.gov/publications/esp/ganglionblock.pdf which concluded | |||
== ] == | |||
::"SGB for PTSD is currently supported only by evidence from uncontrolled, unblinded case series which was neither confirmed nor refuted by a single RCT with imprecise findings, moderate methodological limitations, and which did not directly focus on clinically relevant outcomes. In currently used evidence grading systems,62 such evidence is considered “insufficient” for estimating an effect." | |||
Inviting editors to a discussion at ] as a couple of editors have continued to push <nowiki>{{POV}}</nowiki> templates on the article in order to push a content dispute which is ] '']''<sup>]</sup> 14:25, 9 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::but that was published in 2017. It could be that the answer has changed in the last seven years. --] (]) 03:33, 28 November 2024 (UTC) | |||
:I see the RfC started on <s>Oct</s> Sept 19th, and the tags were just put up today, is that correct? I would think adding tags in the middle of an RfC is generally frowned upon, TAGTEAMING seems to cross the line no matter when, but especially during an RfC. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but consensus being required for POV tags only seems to make sense if discussion is already under way, or am I missing something? ] (]) 15:18, 9 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::19 September rather than 19 October. The tags appear to have been applied in part due to perceived issues with the lede, which are the subject of the RfC, but also the general "negative" tone of the article. As I've tried to explain more than once, including at ], this "negative" tone is a reflection of what reliable, secondary sources have to say about the topic. If editors arguing that the article is unduly negative present evidence of views from secondary sources that portray the ICOC in a more positive light being absent from the article, then those could be used, but I've not seen many such sources presented in the various discussions. ] (]) 18:44, 9 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::I've notified the two editors who've been adding these tags of this discussion as a courtesy. ] (]) 18:48, 9 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::I suggest creating a link on the talk page so that all are notified, transparency is important for any/all involved. See ]. Cheers. ] (]) 22:02, 9 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::@] done. '']''<sup>]</sup> 04:27, 10 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::To clarify: since my comment above referred to the actions of two specific users who tried to add these tags, I felt I needed to notify them of this discussion to comply with the requirement specified at the top of this board to notify any editor who is the subject of a discussion. No canvassing involved! ] (]) 07:14, 10 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::Hi @], yes discussion is underway in the RFC which addresses the lead. The lead has been the focal point of a lot of discussion with a few editors pushing that there is a NPOV problem and two of them drive by tagging a ridiculous number of POV related TAGs on the article. '']''<sup>]</sup> 04:31, 10 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::@] If this is in reference to me, I do not appreciate it. I did not create the tags, and I'm not even saying I agree with all of them. I just saw that you reverted them without having consensus to do so. I do not find your accusation of me "drive by tagging" to be appropriate. ] (]) 07:18, 10 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::@] at ] you added four tags to the article at the same time. Call it reverting or whatever you want, the effect of adding four tags to the article at the same time, while there is active discussion on the topic in an RFC, is exactly the same. It's extremely unproductive to say the least. '']''<sup>]</sup> 07:30, 10 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::I'm not sure that all the tags were related to the RfC. I also did not add any tags, I only undid your reversion. However unproductive adding the tags may have been, it was not right for you to remove them, hence why I undid your reversion. You cannot just remove tags because you don't like them there. They should be discussed on the talk page and a consensus should be reached. ] (]) 07:39, 10 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::Undoing a reversion which removes tags, is exactly the same as adding tags. The effect of your edit was to add tags. It was not right that anyone engages in ] to push a content dispute. It's disruptive and many would consider it to be ]. '']''<sup>]</sup> 07:58, 10 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::Can you further explain how this is ]? I have read that policy a number of times now and cannot seem to find how it was violated. ] (]) 08:05, 10 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::::Adding four tags at the exact same time which are all minor variations of each other, particularly when you've advised that you don't agree with all of them? Can you please advise how this is anything other than ]? '']''<sup>]</sup> 08:09, 10 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::Drive by Tagging is explained here: | |||
:::::::::* | |||
:::::::::See also: ] | |||
:::::::::<nowiki>Adding tags for non-obvious or perceived problems—without identifying the problem well enough for it to be easily fixed—is frequently referred to as "drive-by tagging", particularly when done by editors who are not involved in the article's development. When it comes to confusing or subjective tags, such as {{</nowiki>]<nowiki>}}, it is important to explain yourself on the article's talk page or in an edit summary. It can be helpful to refer to applicable content policies, such as </nowiki>], ], ], ], or ], though ] is discouraged. | |||
:::::::::By contrast, adding tags for obvious, major flaws can be helpful. However, if an article has insufficient references or other issues, then pointing this out with a tag may not result in the problem being fixed. It may be better to ]. | |||
:::::::::There is no requirement in Misplaced Pages policies that editors must "pay their dues" by working on an article before they can add a tag, so long as they explain the rationale for the tag on the talk page. | |||
:::::::::- The problem was clearly identified on the Talk Page with a heading of #NPOV and concerns raised about #UNDUE weight given to one perspective. Also, there is lots of disagreement over how the LEAD should be formatted, as shown by the current RfC. Hence the Tag on the page that reflects that reality. I have referred to policies and am hoping for more experienced editors to weigh in on the disputed perspectives. | |||
:::::::::- I have been, and remain involved in this project as an active editor of the article. No-one is driving by here. I have "paid my dues", even though it is not required. ] (]) 12:49, 10 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::Dumping 4 tags which are all slight variations of each other on an article in one instance is clearly ]. Please cease your wikilawyering. '']''<sup>]</sup> 13:11, 11 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::I understand that the effect of the edit added the tags. However, I am not interested in adding the specific tags. I was only preventing what I thought to be an inappropriate reversion on your part. If you find @]'s tag adding to be tendentious, then feel free to open a discussion on the talk page about it before having an unneeded back and forth of adding and reverting. ] (]) 08:09, 10 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::::You added the tags also, whatever way you want to spin it. That you advise that you don't agree with them all just makes your edit more problematic. '']''<sup>]</sup> 08:12, 10 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::@] you keep shifting the conversation to the tags, which is only making me believe that you really don't like them there. My issue is '''not''' with the tags, but your reversion. I am not defending or advocating for those tags. I will attempt to keep making this clear as it seems you are mischaracterizing my statements. ] (]) 08:16, 10 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::Well, if nothing else, this discussion appears to have established that there's no consensus for the tags to be added. XZealous, who reverted their removal, doesn't appear to agree with their addition, leaving only one editor who seems to support them. ] (]) 08:38, 10 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::Is consensus needed for a tag to be added? I have not seen that in the policy. I have only seen that concensus is required for its removal. | |||
:::::::::::I will clarify again, I did not state that I "don't agree with their addition." Please refrain from summarizing my comments in that way. If I decide to make a stance of my view of the tags I will do so at the ICOC talk page ] (]) 08:51, 10 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::::To answer your question, XZealous, it doesn't require a whole discussion that establishes consensus before a tag can be added, but if an editor adds a tag and then it's reverted, that indicates that the tagging is contentious and should really be discussed further. It's analogous to ]. | |||
::::::::::::On the not agreeing with the tags' addition, I was going by your comment that "I'm not even saying I agree with all of them", but apologies if I mis-summarised your position. ] (]) 11:10, 10 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::::I hear what you are saying here. However, I have went to remove tags that I have found contentious before and I was told to take it to the talk page to achieve consensus before my removal, and the tag was then replaced. I'm confused as to why the process on this one seems to be different. ] (]) 11:24, 10 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::::::That would also be analogous to ]. If you make a bold edit such as adding or removing a tag and you're reverted, it's on you to seek consensus for the addition/removal through talk page discussion. ] (]) 11:57, 10 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::::::I agree that people need talk page consensus for the removal of a tag. That process was not followed for @]'s tags. They were removed without consensus. That is why I think they should stay up. If an editor disagrees, they can open up a talk page discussion and see where it goes from there. ] (]) 13:46, 12 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::::::::Whatever the case may be, my removal of an earlier tag was treated differently than this one. I wouldn't want it to be acceptable to have double standards. ] (]) 13:47, 12 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::::::::There wasn't consensus for their addition in the first place. I strongly advise you to drop this stick, as it's verging on tendentious now. ] (]) 20:32, 12 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::::::::It crossed the line of ] a while ago. '']''<sup>]</sup> 23:52, 12 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::::::::Refer to ], which states: | |||
::::::::::::::::{{tq|This template is not meant to be a permanent resident on any article. You may remove this template whenever any one of the following is true:}} | |||
::::::::::::::::#{{tq|There is consensus on the talkpage or the ] that the issue has been resolved.}} | |||
::::::::::::::::There is clearly consensus here (at the NPOV Noticeboard) that the tag does not belong on the article. | |||
::::::::::::::::Please cease continuing on with your ] and ]. '']''<sup>]</sup> 23:51, 12 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::I agree that this has established there is consensus against the tags being there. '']''<sup>]</sup> 09:58, 10 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::::Reading up the policies on tags we find this: | |||
::::::::::::Disputes over tags | |||
::::::::::::Whether a tag should be placed on an article is sometimes the subject of disputes. Occasionally, editors place tags to ], to ], or to be ]. Similarly, editors occasionally remove tags without solving real problems because they are embarrassed by the tag, do not want additional attention from other editors, or do not like tags. | |||
::::::::::::Rather than reverting or ] over the placement of a tag, use ] procedures. Start by engaging in a calm discussion on the article's talk page. | |||
::::::::::::<nowiki>Some tags, such as {{</nowiki>]<nowiki>}}, often merely indicate the existence of one editor's concern, without taking a stand whether the article complies with Misplaced Pages policies. It is important to remember that the POV dispute tag does </nowiki>''not'' mean that an article actually violates NPOV. It simply means that there is a current discussion about whether the article complies with the ] policy. In any NPOV dispute, there will usually be some people who think the article complies with NPOV, and some who disagree. In general, you should not remove the POV dispute tag merely because you personally feel the article complies with NPOV. Rather, the tag should be removed only when there is a consensus among the editors that the NPOV disputes have indeed been resolved or—according to the rules for this specific template—when ]. ] (]) 10:39, 10 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::::Per ]: | |||
:::::::::::::{{tq|This template is not meant to be a permanent resident on any article. You may remove this template whenever any one of the following is true:}} | |||
:::::::::::::#{{tq|There is consensus on the talkpage or the NPOV Noticeboard that the issue has been resolved.}} | |||
:::::::::::::It is clear that there is consensus here in this discussion at the NPOV Noticeboard to remove. '']''<sup>]</sup> 10:43, 10 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::::::Im unsure on how you think there is consensus on this? Also, there was no consensus when you removed them in the first place. I see you talking about tag teaming, drive by tagging, and tendentious editing. I would rather have engage in honest conversation with other editors rather than having an edit war with other labels being thrown out. ] (]) 11:22, 10 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::::::There's four editors in this discussion and not one of them, yourself included, is for adding all four of those tags. There's not even been a argument proffered which is correct policy-wise for the maintenance of the tags. That's consensus for removal. '']''<sup>]</sup> 11:38, 10 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::::::::I disagree with your assessment here. As you yourself have noted to me, consensus is not about a vote count. I see in no way how this discussion can lead you to the conclusion that consensus was reached to take the tags down. If you do, could you explain how you see it that way. ] (]) 16:05, 11 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::::::::Consensus is not a vote count, but you have proffered zero valid policy reason for the maintenance of those tags which would overcome the numerical superiority of those who have indicated that they are against the tags. '']''<sup>]</sup> 23:51, 11 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::::::Tags shouldn't be a "Permanent resident" on an article. You wouldn't allow them to be up for even 12 hours! | |||
::::::::::::::Also, happy to remove the "Buzzword" tag if that seems to bother you. (Even though that exact debate is going back and forth in the current RfC) the Tag simply reflects that reality. ] (]) 12:53, 10 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::::::This discussion demonstrates that there is consensus against any of the tags so no don't add anything. '']''<sup>]</sup> 13:12, 11 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::::::::Agreed. ] (]) 00:16, 12 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::::::::<nowiki>I found this Noticeboard discussion through a reference in the ICOC article’s Talk Page. Having just posted on the Talk Page’s NPOV discussion, I want to add my voice here that the NPOV Tags in the ICOC article are justified. ~~~~ </nowiki> ] (]) 20:55, 14 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::::::::I'm yet to see any credible policy based arguments that the article has a NPOV problem and that weighs towards there being consensus that the NPOV tags stay removed. '']''<sup>]</sup> 05:25, 15 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::::::::::The policies regarding these tags are clear: | |||
::::::::::::::::::<nowiki>"Some tags, such as {{</nowiki>]<nowiki>}}, often merely indicate the existence of one editor's concern, without taking a stand whether the article complies with Misplaced Pages policies. It is important to remember that the POV dispute tag does </nowiki>''not'' mean that an article actually violates NPOV. It simply means that there is a current discussion about whether the article complies with the ] policy. In any NPOV dispute, there will usually be some people who think the article complies with NPOV, and some who disagree. In general, you should not remove the POV dispute tag merely because you personally feel the article complies with NPOV. Rather, the tag should be removed only when there is a consensus among the editors that the NPOV disputes have indeed been resolved or—according to the rules for this specific template—when ]." | |||
::::::::::::::::::- Many editors have mentioned concerns over the article. From the LEDE, even stating it "needs to be completely re-written" ], to new editors need to be called in because of the disputes ] to wholesale misrepresentation of what sources are saying ] . There is certainly NO CONSENSUS that NPOV has been applied. | |||
::::::::::::::::::- Secondly, since we are concerned with following policy, POV tags do not need consensus to be added, they need consensus to be REMOVED. (as is clearly stated in the policy above) You removed them 3 times in a 24 hour period, coming awfully close to edit warring. (which is again going directly against Misplaced Pages policies). ] (]) 07:02, 15 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::::::::::You're incorrect. Please don't repeat yourself over and over. '']''<sup>]</sup> 07:19, 15 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::::::::::::Your continual dismissal of @] is getting concerning. I would encourage you to listen to other editors rather than brushing them off. ] (]) 08:39, 15 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::::::::::::I've listened and then I've told them why they are incorrect. Other editors have done the same. I don't plan on doing it ad infinitum. '']''<sup>]</sup> 09:32, 15 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::::::::::::I disagree with the view that Tarnished is being dismissive, much less "brushing off" other editors here. I recommend we try to stay on topic, but only if there's anything NEW to add. Repetition is inappropriate and might be interpreted as ]. Cheers. ] (]) 09:33, 15 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::::::::::Discussion is already underway via RfC, and the term is properly attributed with an inline citation. IMO the tags really aren't that necessary. ] (]) 09:48, 15 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::(...Sound of Crickets...) --] (]) 01:12, 4 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
== Can we describe someone, in wikivoice, as a cult leader (in principle) == | |||
::::I've taken a crack at rolling back the ] / ] violations in . ] (]) 03:20, 4 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
== Journal of Indo-European Studies == | |||
Today I have decided to swing the bat at the hornet's nest and bring up something that has always bothered me: can we describe people as a cult leader in wikivoice? Per ], we cannot, but people often do, and this stays in very high profile articles that have passed our review processes. This will disproportionately apply to very high profile cases, but as these are the examples to follow, I feel they are influential. | |||
In order to avoid an edit war I am starting a topic here for this. The article for the Journal for Indo-European studies has throughout the years been given undue weight consistently to make it look like its a journal of poor standing when its not. The content places far too much focus on Roger Pearson, its founding publisher,and not enough on the journal's actual content in order to make it look 'racist' when it is not since it is clearly a linguistic journal. The article currently reads more like a mini bio on Pearson rather than anything to do with the actual content of the journal itself. More over, edits go unchecked on that article for over a month that remove info that makes the journal look reputable yet edits that take out all the mostly irrelevant bio info on Pearson and alleged negative aspects of the journal get scrutinized quickly and reverted. There is clear POV pushing and an anti-NPOV campaign going on here. Other editors have flagged it as being largely unbalanced and given undue weight. I am asking here for help in order to better remedy the situation as right now there is a stalemate and the way the article looks and reads right now is a mess. ] (]) 21:54, 2 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
As such, here is a survey of the highest profile ones I thought of off the top of my head: | |||
:Can you list plainly the sources you have that you feel paint a balanced picture of the journal? <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff"> ‥ </span>]</span> 22:27, 2 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
* ] (which is a GA) calls him a cult leader as first descriptor and in short description | |||
::The only source that has anything remotely balanced to say about the journal in that article is this: | |||
* ] calls him a cult leader as first descriptor and in short description | |||
* ] not an article yet, but a high profile recent case, and the mainspace redirect and draft is "cult leader" | |||
* ] says cult leader as first descriptor and in short description. I'm more sympathetic to this because NXIVM isn't a religion and I don't know what else to call it | |||
* ], has it as second descriptor | |||
* ] says says cult leader as first descriptor and in short description | |||
* ] (FA), does not say cult leader, says religious leader | |||
* ], says "was the founder and leader of the Japanese doomsday cult", which is kind of iffy but doomsday cult is, unlike cult, an actual definable term | |||
::Tucker, William H. (2002). Jazayery (ed.). The Funding of Scientific Racism: Wickliffe Draper and the Pioneer Fund. | |||
Probably dozens of other pages from search. These are the people I thought of off the top of my head. Cult is inherently a value descriptor, hence per ] you should only ever have it attributed; this rule is flouted constantly. What brought this up is @] (tagging because I feel you may have some thoughts on this) challenging the descriptor on two other articles. I actually agree with this decision generally, the only reason I added it was for consistency with the Koresh & Jones articles (and the fact that I was hesitant to apply religious leader given the questionable status as a religion). But given the MOS, should we ever even describe someone, in wikivoice, as a cult leader? I do not care which way we go, I just want consistency with MOS. Can we, in wikivoice, call someone a cult leader? I feel like we shouldn't but the ur-cult leader Jim Jones has it there so I feel like if that article, a GA, says it other people are going to emulate it in writing their articles. Thoughts ] (]) 23:24, 9 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:Well looking at the first one Jim Jones there are citations calling it a cult and him the leader - but for BLP reasons we probably should attach one of them to the sentence calling him a cult leader. Normally citations aren't required in a lead but yes I agree this is a case where attribution in the lead is called for. ] (]) 23:42, 9 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::@] I'm not sure if attribution fixes the issue here because unlike other contentious labels cult doesn't really have any definition besides "group that is bad", and any attempts to apply it as such are fiendishly controversial. The word itself is opinionated, vs even terrorist, which applies to doing a specific thing, "cult leader" as a label has problems it doesn't. ] (]) 23:46, 9 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::If it is a label regularly used of them and here's no serious disagreement then the label is fine. However it needs attribution. ] (]) 23:51, 9 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::@] There is much serious disagreement with the label cult itself. The relevant academic field largely stopped using it. ] (]) 23:52, 9 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::I could be wrong, but I think it depends the quantity and quality of sources. ''"Avoid '']'' in its informal sense, and establish the scholarly context for any formal use of the term."'' | |||
::::Maybe ] can help with clarification. Otherwise, I concur that unless the mainstream consensus agrees, it's safer to use attributions. ] (]) 23:55, 9 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::*{{tq|However, it would need attribution}} - no, this is untrue. ] is clear that we cannot attribute uncontested facts in ways that would imply that they are mere opinions; and as core policy, it overrules the MOS on this. Terms listed on ] can (and in fact ''must'') be used unattributed in situations where they are {{tq|uncontested and uncontroversial factual assertions made by reliable sources}}, since to do otherwise would be to treat them as opinions in violation of NPOV. --] (]) 17:13, 11 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::*:Just to clarify, are you saying that something must be factually established as a cult before an article can use the term? ] (]) 17:24, 11 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::Sort-of. In order to call something a cult ''in the article voice'', it must be clear that the highest-quality sources, as a whole, treat the fact that it is a cult as straightforward, uncontested fact. ("Uncontested" means there's no serious dispute among the highest-quality sources; they can still be called a cult, in that case, even if their adherents disagree, or even if there's dispute in lower-quality pop-cultural sources and stuff, as long as there's eg. a very clear academic consensus.) The term can be used in situations that don't reach that bar, but in that case we'd usually have to use attribution. Also note that the bar to call a specific person a ''cult leader'' is higher than referring to a large group as a cult, on account of ]; with groups there is a little bit more leeway (but you'd still need, generally, an agreement among the sources that it's a fact, yeah.) Keep in mind that this can be as simple as a bunch of high-quality sources describing them as a cult in ''their'' article voice, with nothing of comparable quality that disagrees and not ''too many'' sources that tiptoe around it. --] (]) 21:32, 13 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::How can it be established as a fact in the highest quality sources if the term is avoided by those sources? It seems that the hypothetical of it being established as fact is impossible. So the MOS should be followed. ] (]) 13:45, 28 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:: I've made similar mistakes many times: BLP doesn't apply to Jim Jones, who died a long time ago. ] (] / ]) 01:47, 10 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:{{tq|may express contentious opinion and are best avoided unless widely used by reliable sources to describe the subject}} means if it's widely used by reliable sources to describe the subject then it may no longer be best avoided. ] (] • ]) 00:01, 10 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::In which case it should be attributed, which in the case of everyone listed above, it is not. ] (]) 00:04, 10 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::I meant cited not attributed in the lead if the label is due. ] (]) 00:08, 10 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::"Value-laden labels – such as calling an organization a cult, an individual a racist, sexist, terrorist, or freedom fighter, or a sexual practice a perversion – may express contentious opinion and are best avoided unless widely used by reliable sources to describe the subject, '''in which case use in-text attribution'''." This is why I asked. I see no issue with saying someone is "commonly described as a cult leader", but saying they are directly seems to flout the manual of style even if cited. ] (]) 00:10, 10 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::So how does one of these academics you refer to describe someone who gets a following and then gets them all to commit mass-suicide? ] (]) 00:17, 10 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::They just don't use the word, or if they do use it they attribute it. Journalists tend to use it, of course. Further "someone who gets a following and then gets them all to commit mass-suicide"; that's like eight or so people so they could probably just list them by name at that point. ] (]) 00:26, 10 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::Thanks for the clarification NV. ] (]) 00:31, 10 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::No. If it's only used by a couple sources, then it should be attributed. But if virtually every time the person is discussed in reliable sources they are labelled a cult leader by those sources, then there is no attribution needed. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | ] | ] 00:38, 10 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::So, the MOS is wrong, and we can call someone a cult leader in wikivoice? I want it to be established one way or the other. ] (]) 00:58, 10 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::The MOS is a style guide. It is expected and accepted there are sometimes exceptions to guidance issued on style. ] (] • ]) 01:28, 10 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::There being "sometimes" an exception doesn't quite apply when it seemingly applies to every example that involves the cult terminology. What makes this an exception instead of the rule? What differentiates the people we call cult leaders in wikivoice from the people we should attribute it with? Because as demonstrated above even in the highest profile cases there is inconsistency. We call Jones and Koresh cult leaders, but not Asahara or Applewhite. All four are the most popular conception of cult leaders to the modern public. ] (]) 01:37, 10 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::The MOS is not wrong. You are wrong in trying to take portions of it without the rest of it. I'll quote it and add emphasis for your understanding: {{tq|'''may express''' contentious opinion and are best avoided unless widely used by reliable sources to describe the subject, '''in which case use in-text attribution'''}}. It isn't a contentious opinion if it's widely reported in reliable sources. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | ] | ] 02:30, 10 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::That still feels like it's reading "you should always use in-text attribution for these labels", which has always driven me mad even outside this case because clearly is not how it works in practice! But perhaps I am interpreting it overly literally. ] (]) 02:34, 10 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::*No, that part of the MOS is incorrect. ], the actual policy, is very clear: {{tq|Avoid stating facts as opinions. Uncontested and uncontroversial factual assertions made by reliable sources should normally be directly stated in Misplaced Pages's voice...}} If something is an uncontested and uncontroversial factual assertion, it ''cannot'' be attributed; it must be stated, unattributed, in the article voice as fact. This is true even for specific terms listed on ]. The issue is that when the guideline for LABEL was written, people mistakenly believed that those terms would always be treated as opinions by RSes - but in situations where they are not, as core policy, NPOV takes priority and the MOS recommendation to attribute them must be disregarded. --] (]) 17:17, 11 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
: I've said this before, but ] frequently gets people in a position where they're actively opposing NPOV while attempting to defend it. We should state the plain and relevant facts as facts, and not add misleading attribution. Jim Jones was a cult leader. It's his primary notable role. The article would be worse if we started with a less informative, less supported role and then said "These books and these journal articles and these news sources have called Jones a cult leader." ] (] / ]) 01:46, 10 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::What annoys me about that is if "cult leader" is the defining aspect, I feel it would naturally follow the group be labeled the same way, we don't label the group the same way as we do the person; the lead of ] says "religious movement", only noting at the end that it is popularly considered a destructive cult. What makes someone a cult leader is leading a cult, there is no other definition, but then we don't label what makes him a cult leader a cult. And is Jim Jones the only cult leader then? I'm using him as the highest profile and clearest cut example because he's everyone's idea of a cult leader, but how many newspapers calling someone a cult leader do we have to add before we can call someone that in wikivoice? This can't only apply to Jones. So what is the line? ] (]) 01:53, 10 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::On your first point, I urge you for the sake of your own sanity to abandon your hopes of consistency between articles! I'm not saying Jones is the only cult leader. If the question is "Can we describe someone, in wikivoice, as a cult leader (in principle)?" then the existence of one cult leader appropriately described as a cult leader in wikivoice means the answer must be yes. When you get to "how many", there's never a satisfying answer. There's no line, but there is a test: NPOV's "seriously contested". Interpretation is up to local discussion or dispute resolution, but I personally favor analysis of the best sources available. Among those top few books and journal articles, is Jones's status as a cult leader seriously contested? ] (] / ]) 01:59, 10 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::Little hope of inconsistency not bothering me given my OCD, but I will try not to bother anyone with it haha. But yes, sorry if I came across as pushy. I just wanted to get more thoughts that weren't my own because I am not sure where exactly the consensus is. | |||
::::It's not contested in books by journalists, but is contested by most "new religious movements" academics, who overwhelmingly reject the word cult entirely except for a handful of people, but the field as a whole has been criticized for being too nice to groups accused of being cults, but generally the word is not used in religious studies academia. But very much is by journalists, hence the tension. NRMs/Cults are a nightmare topic area. ] (]) 02:03, 10 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::Nearly everything else entered in that article is meant to make the journal basically look like neo-nazis literature which it is not. It is simply a linguistic journal that focuses on linguistic matters concerning the Indo-European language family. Hardly any of the content of the journal itself is presented or discussed in the article. Surely that is problematic in and of itself. The journal isn't about Roger Pearson yet the way the article is written would have you believe its all about Pearson and that the journal is racist which it can't possibly be since its a linguistic journal. ] (]) 22:52, 2 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
: The actual policy (]) is less strong than the MOS... It says "Do not label people with contentious labels, loaded language, or terms that lack precision, unless a person is commonly described that way in reliable sources." so it doesn't have the blanket direction to use in-text attribution which we find in the MOS. The actual policy does not prohibit describing people as a cult leader in wikivoice... Perhaps the MOS needs to clarified, Policy trumps MOS after all. ] (]) 01:57, 10 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::No, I'm asking you about what you have. If you could collate the bibliography from scratch, what would it cite? <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff"> ‥ </span>]</span> 22:54, 2 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
::@] Well, BLP isn't an issue for most of the people here, as most have been dead or executed. So I'm not sure how applicable that is. ] (]) 01:59, 10 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::The only other texts I can think of that would maybe counter balance things are actual articles from the journal itself which shows its not racist: | |||
:::It's certainly interesting. We expect extra caution with neutrality in BLPs, so it's odd to see a weaker rule there than in the MOS. ] (] / ]) 02:01, 10 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::https://www.jies.org/DOCS/jies_index/mainindex.html | |||
::::Yeah that's surprising to me. ] (]) 02:06, 10 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::: |
::::I think the problem though is the content in the wiki article itself does not focus on what the journal actually has in it. Its all literature being used to paint it as racist. ] (]) 00:11, 3 December 2024 (UTC) | ||
:::::I mean, this is pretty quickly revealing itself as the unavoidable core issue though, right? We don't write encyclopedia articles based predominantly on primary sources—and in this case, what the journal itself contains is a primary source for claims about the journal itself—but on secondary sources, and so we're going to be first and foremost balancing what independent, published, reliable sources have to say about it. This is a pretty basic restatement of our core policy on ] and our guideline on ]. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff"> ‥ </span>]</span> 00:35, 3 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::The problem with "cult" specifically is that 95% of the academics who discuss cults do not use the word cult. But journalists do, overwhelmingly. We could probably have an article on the fight over using the word cult. So calling someone a cult leader or something a cult will always be contested to some degree. ] (]) 02:05, 10 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::Right, I understand the issue here between primary and secondary sources. But I really don't think the secondary sources are necessarily reliable, Arvidson for instance has a political ideology that lends an inherent biased against what the journal is about. I suspect the same applies for probably other sources there as well. But it all seems at the end of the day unbalanced and against NPOV. ] (]) 00:49, 3 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::That wasn't what I asked... I asked whether you would agree that in general what is "widely used by reliable sources" is exactly the sort of thing which doesn't get in-text attribution. ] (]) 02:08, 10 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::I'm sorry but we don't exclude a work from an academic just because they're Marxist. ] (]) 16:23, 3 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::Hm. Not sure if I can give one answer there. I'd say it depends on the exact label and how negative it is, how widely used it is (is it every source or just most) and how clear the definition of the label is, or if different ''kinds''/opinions of sources always give the label or it varies between things. For example, if something is the popular word used to describe something in the news, that doesn't mean it's always ''accurate''. But for example, terrorist is clearer, because you can be convicted of a terrorist act. You can't really be convicted of being a cult leader, and unlike terrorism cult doesn't have a clear definition. So in the case of terrorist, yes, but I'm not sure about the specific label "cult". ] (]) 02:11, 10 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::::The context in which Arvidson's ideas presented here within the article (too many one sided views) coupled with how the ideology creates a biasing effect against the topic per the author's book is problematic. There are quite a few claims in the Arvidson book that shows he really just doesn't care for the study of Indo-European linguistics and mythology per his political stance which is bias. Question: are opinions derived from books written by authors with a strong right leaning political ideology allowed here on wikipedia and considered 'reliable sources'. ] (]) 16:46, 3 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::I think we're talking past each other... I'm asking an extremely broad question, not about labels but about all content in mainspace. Across all of mainspace we do not use in text attribution for that which is "widely used by reliable sources". ] (]) 17:35, 11 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::Generally yes, unless the strong right-leaning political ideology gets into ] beliefs such as pro-eugenicism or other racist / supremacist opinions and assuming they're operating within an area of specialty and would not, otherwise, be considered unreliable regardless of their personal politics. | |||
:::FWIW ] is also relevant and more generally applicable to dead people. ] (] • ]) 05:21, 10 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::I'll be honest, when dealing with academic sources, I don't generally look up the ideological position of the author unless it's somehow actually relevant. And I don't believe it's at all relevant here. ] (]) 18:20, 3 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
::It's been attempted. I'd contribute a !vote if it came up again. People tend to forget about all the policy backups and see changing LABEL in isolation, and worry it'll enable POV-pushing, when the goal is really the opposite. ] (] / ]) 02:00, 10 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::I think that is rather naive and not very reasonable that an author's background or ideology wouldn't be relevant and that due diligence shouldn't be given to an author's background when choosing sources that would write fairly or reasonably on a subject. I don't think a book Sean Hannity would write on socialism would be received well in a wiki article pertaining to said subject and would raise editorial ire fairly quickly. We are dealing with much the same situation here. ] (]) 18:54, 3 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::I think ''something'' here probably needs to be clarified but I am not exactly sure how. ] (]) 02:06, 10 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::Sean Hannity is not an academic and does not write academic books. As such he's rather irrelevant to this discussion and the context of my response ''which was specific to the review of academic books and journals.'' ] (]) 18:56, 3 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
:It'a sad how many people in this discussion are saying ], a part of manual of style, should just be ignored. Like "terrorist" vs "militant", I don't think there is ever going to be complete consistently on Misplaced Pages on which term is used, but I always think that "cult" is a pejorative and should be avoided being objectively stated in wikivoice, particularly with regards to the religons themselves. That doesn't mean that the term has to be omitted completely, just that it should be attributed, with stuff like "widely described as a cult (leader)". I think Jim Jones may be an exception in that he didn't appear to actually believe many of the things he taught. I'm iffy about "doomsday cult", what is usually meant by that term is that the movement is ], but if sources specifically describe it as a "doomsday cult" I see no reason not to mention it. ] (]) 06:54, 10 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::::Academics do not represent completely neutral views. Certainly not Arvidsson. Just like Sean Hannity doesn't. Separating the two is not as useful as you think. Both entities are capable of publishing highly skewed views on any position. You're essentially discouraging due diligence here. I don't find that very academic and suspect in its own right. ] (]) 19:02, 3 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
::Could always take the ] approach and say a "commune, gang, and cult". There{{snd}}all bases covered! ] (]) 07:06, 10 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::::] does not mean that a source must be neutral. ] (]) ] (]) 19:11, 3 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
:If "cult" is used to describe a high control group or if it is an expression of distaste towards a group, then I do not find it appropriate to use. The term is highly subjective, but also highly critical. Because of this, I would be very careful in using it. ] (]) 07:14, 10 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::::::Bringing up the highly biased and skewed Arvidsson text as not within the many guidelines within Misplaced Pages's NPOV is fair game. You are trying to set your own perimiters here. ] (]) 19:31, 3 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
:Looking at the Jim Jones article, I don’t think removing the word cult from the lead would change the meaning of the article. Is describes him as the leader of a group and says what that group did. Most people would come to a conclusion that he is a cult leader from that description. Even if they didn’t, they would have an idea of who Jones was, and what he did. It is kinda like saying that someone is a politician and Prime Minister. The description is less subjective, and makes the term redundant. So, while it appears that one could use "Cult Leader", often one doesn’t need to. ] (]) 15:46, 28 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:I agree that this is a problem that needs to be resolved. Anyone familiar with Indo-European studies is aware that the Journal of Indo-European Studies is a major, respected, and influential peer-reviewed publication in the field. ] (]) 00:39, 3 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
If multiple reliable sources characterise the article subject as a cult leader the article should reflect that. The claim that "{{tq|the relevant academic field}}" stopped using the term "cult" is inaccurate and loaded. The only academic field in which a majority have largely stopped using the term is religious studies. Therefore, implicit in that opinion is the notion that the only "relevant academic field" is religious studies. This is clearly only the case if we accept the circular argument that all cults are actually religions and therefore the relevant field of study is religion. The word I would use to describe that argument is bullshit. | |||
::Exactly. There really isn't anything wrong with the Journal itself, especially if you read it, but the sources presented have a peculiar bias against the journal. ] (]) 00:46, 3 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::Well, you're free to think there's nothing wrong with it, but I'm genuinely not sure what we're meant to do while writing an encyclopedia article about it? Are we supposed to adopt a totally novel process than when writing about anything else? (To the best of my ability, these aren't rhetorical questions.) <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff"> ‥ </span>]</span> 00:49, 3 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::In short, we just need to build out the article more regarding its reception, especially with discussion from individuals who actually have a background and standing in historical linguistics. For example, a quick look at the editor-in-chief since 2020 reveals quotes that actually reflect how the journal is perceived in for example philology and historical linguistics (eg. ). ] (]) 00:53, 3 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::There are opinions about the journal expressed in secondary sources that have questionable merit. Especially when you compare these opinions to what's actually in the journal. This is indeed very problematic and presents a rather unique problem here. I don't know the best way to remedy this either other than through continued dialogue. Perhaps maybe we can strike a harmonious balance. At the moment, something is very wrong here. ] (]) 00:53, 3 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
Scholars in the fields of clinical psychology, law, skepticism, philosophy, psychiatry and others continue to use the term cult. These have equal or greater claim to be the relevant academic field to study these groups than religious studies. <span style="white-space:nowrap;text-shadow:#4682B4 0.1em 0.1em 1.5em,#4682B4 -0.1em -0.1em 1.5em;color:#000000">]— ]</span> 02:29, 10 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::Ultimately the article (as with all Misplaced Pages articles) needs to be based on what reliable secondary sources say about the journal. What editors think of the journal is of no import, and what editors of the journal say about it is of limited use. The solution is to find additional secondary sources that discuss the journal. -- <small>LCU</small> ''']''' <small>''«]» °]°''</small> 17:19, 10 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
I see some edits made over at the JIES article but to me it seems making a whole subsection about Pearson does more to draw away what the journal is about. The journal is not Pearson. Contributors and editors like Mallory, Polome, Adams, and Kristiansen made the journal by and large what it is today. Not Pearson. We still have some ways to go here. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 16:11, 3 December 2024 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
:Fair point, actually, I did not think of it that way. But the issue is, they all have different definitions for them, no? And this still lends the issue of which ones we are and aren't describing as cults. ] (]) 02:32, 10 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:I think the solution is to simply build out the rest of the article and then return to it. ] (]) 17:56, 3 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
* ] is unambiguous on this point: {{tq|Avoid stating facts as opinions. Uncontested and uncontroversial factual assertions made by reliable sources should normally be directly stated in Misplaced Pages's voice...}} As core policy, NPOV overrides the MOS on this (and, in particular, overrules LABEL) which means that in situations where it is ''unambiguous'' that the sources treat something as an uncontested and uncontroversial fact, it must be stated in the article voice and ''cannot'' be attributed in a way that would make it seem like an opinion. The MOS can set a high bar for this, of course, but it cannot set a hard-and-fast rule that {{tq|cult leader}} can ''never'' be stated in the article voice regardless of the state of sourcing; that would contradict NPOV, which means that arguments from that position can and must be disregarded as being against policy. Now, nothing stops someone from setting a very, ''very'' high bar for such language - but as soon as someone says something along the lines of "you can ''never'' describe someone as a cult leader in the article voice", you can safely start disregarding them, because NPOV is clear that there's a point of sufficient sourcing where we would not only be allowed to do so but required to so; we cannot overrule the sources just because editors personally disagree with using a particular word or term in that fashion. --] (]) 17:11, 11 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::The secondary sources in the article clearly indicate your opinion - that the presence of a known white-supremacist as a founder of the journal is irrelevant to the reputation of the journal - is not universal among academics. I concur with bloodofox. If you're concerned about how the journal is depicted then you find sources that support it being described as ''not'' an armature of ]. ] (]) 18:29, 3 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
*:Bit like terrorist, preponderance of sources say so, we say so. ] (]) 17:23, 11 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::The limited secondary sources that are highly biased in the wiki as it stands does in no way represent a universal opinion among academics in and of themselves. The journal is simply not being represented fairly based on the texts available. Pearson's involvement is vastly over stated and the idea that its an extension of himself somehow is completely unfounded. ] (]) 18:59, 3 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::I think that, when dealing with ]s in particular, it's reasonable to require a higher bar than just a preponderance - there needs to be a genuine consensus among the highest-quality sources available that it's indisputably true. My point is just that there ''is'' such a threshold where we'd have to describe it as objective fact (ie. ] prevents ] from establishing a list of verboten words that we can ''never ever'' describe as objective fact in the article voice, the way some people have sometimes tried to interpret it.) The threshold can still be extremely high, especially for BLP subjects or exceptional claims; 51% of sources saying someone is a terrorist and 49% of equally high-quality sources saying "lol no" obviously wouldn't be enough. To override the MOS, the sourcing has to reach the point where the state-facts-as-facts part of NPOV unambiguously kicks in and says "no, sorry, this is just an undisputed fact among the highest-quality sourcing." --] (]) 02:49, 13 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::Ok this is getting repetitive. I'm sorry you haven't got the response here you hoped for. But the advice to improve the article by finding additional academic sources is good advice and would serve you better than suggesting we should never treat the criticism of a journal with a white supremacist founder as due because said criticism came from a Marxist. ] (]) 19:01, 3 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::Again you're discouraging due diligence and whether or not a source can be viewed as reliable or not. If you would just read the journal yourself you would see its not at all what Arvidsson is trying to paint it as. ] (]) 19:04, 3 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::I'm sorry but ] isn't appropriate in this case. Arvidsson is reliable because he's an academic writing about the topic that is at the literal core of his academic domain. He is, flatly put, a ] for criticism of Indo-European studies. As such it would be a violation of ] ''to exclude him''. However that does not mean that Misplaced Pages should treat his position as privileged in some way. If other ] disagree with him then they would be due inclusion too. This is why you've been told to find other sources. ] (]) 19:09, 3 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::Ardvisson as a 'best choice' in this is simply your opinion. You're a socialist after all, so apparently he seems reasonable to you. Many others would not feel the same way you do. Sorry if you do no understand that. But feel free to continue the 'repetive' conversation here. At the end of the day all I see is due diligence being discouraged and a lack of NPOV. ] (]) 19:28, 3 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::::And now we have reached the point in the conversation when I ask you to read ]. ] (]) 19:30, 3 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::There was no personal attack. My tone was the same as yours. For all intended purposes that would mean you should read that yourself. If you would like to end this conversation cordially, now would be fine. We simply don't agree. ] (]) 19:32, 3 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::{{tq|You're a socialist after all...}} is, in context, a personal attack as you're suggesting my own, openly stated, politics makes me incapable of recognizing whether an academic is operating within his specialty - which he did his doctoral thesis on - and are trying to dismiss my advice accordingly. I would kindly ask you to strike that comment. ] (]) 20:01, 3 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::I said politely that we should end this conversation as its turning out to be very, very unproductive. We don't agree on anything apparently and I don't take very well to people discouraging due diligence and setting their own standards on how wiki guidelines should be viewed. Please, stop. ] (]) 20:09, 3 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
* I mean, if that's what sources say about it, then that's what sources say about it. The sources we're citing there are largely academics with at least some degree of expertise in Indo-European studies, race science or far-right movements. Also, we're really only devoting a few sentences to the matter, which are roughly balanced in terms of focus - two for scholars who criticize it; one noting the existence of the boycott, and two from Tucker and Mallory ''defending'' the journal (and the defenses are given slightly more text!) Having them exactly balance out like that isn't ''necessary'' of course, but it makes it harder to argue that they're being given undue weight - aside from the fact that the page says almost nothing else about the journal at all, which is solved by finding other sources covering other aspects. (I will say that I did a quick search right now and found only a few passing mentions, ''all'' of which were about the race science connection to one degree or another. That really does seem to be the only aspect of the journal that has received meaningful external coverage. See eg. : {{tq|Although Duranton-Crabol (1988: 148), fifteen years ago, pointed with alarm to his involvement, Lincoln appears to be the first US-based Indo-European specialist to openly comment on the worrisome background of Roger Pearson, the publisher of the prestigious Journal of Indo-European Studies since its founding in 1973.}} Notable mostly because it's a secondary source describing such concerns, which lends additional weight to at least mentioning them.) ...also, they point out that Bruce Lincoln, who we cite in the article, ''is'' actually an Indo-European specialist; we might want to look at what we're citing him for and see if there are more details there. --] (]) 22:00, 3 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
*{{ping|Geog1}} You must notify other editors involved in a discussion (i.e. me) when you post it to this noticeboard. There is a big red notice instructing you to this at the top of the page. – ] <small>(])</small> 07:13, 4 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
*I don't really get what we can do here. "Neutral" specifically is a technical term meaning in proportion to what the independent, reliable secondary sources have said on the topic, and the limits of editorial discretion do not extend to excluding the what seems to be the views expressed by the majority of those sources, as indicated by the participants here. If the sources say that the earth is flat, then we can only report that that is what the sources say. Misplaced Pages does not have the resources to conduct original research, and it would be disallowed by policy even if we were able to. ] (] • ]) 09:28, 4 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
Just one other thing I have to bring up here. I noticed the Tucker quote had the text about Pearson's involvement regarding published material in JIES flagged as dubious for a while. I don't know by who. Eventually it was removed because someone (not sure who) did research noting Pearson had published 3 articles in the journal. That would seem to be original research. When we look at the Berlet and Lyons quote being used in the article, they claim the Journal is 'racialist' and 'ayranist' but it is a linguistic journal not 'racialist' or whatever. This can be seen by just reading a few entries from the journal which can easily be found online just like the Berlet and Lyons quote was easily pulled for online yet we see that characterization of the journal persist. This appears to present some inconsistency on how editing policy is being used. | |||
== Gun show loophole endless discussion over NPOV == | |||
I see the comment by ] mentions how if 'reliable' sources report the earth is flat, then according to wikipedia policy, its fair game to put into an article and discuss. While I understand this is a policy, I'm not entirely sure if its serving us well here. This could open the door of Pandora's box for all sorts of misinformation to be presented in wiki articles. | |||
See ] | |||
Finally, I took a look at the Journal of the Royal Statistical Society article. I see an entire section with no sources entitled 'discussion papers' which essentially relates to the journal's content. No one for some reason seems bothered that its not sourced but I have doubts that a similar section in the JIES article would go without scrutiny if we were to say flesh out what the content of the journal is actually like. Again, it would appear inconsistencies are presented here regarding wikipedia policy being applied to two different journals. | |||
Please note this is a ] article which has held GA status for years despite the validity of said status being called into question during the current discussion . | |||
I don't know what can be done here, but like I said before in the JIES talk page, I'd welcome more information that could help balance out the article a little more. However, I also feel this is a situation where wikipedia policy is failing a particular article and I doubt this is the only one. In the future, it may be useful to revisit wikipedia policy and see if changes could be made to help prevent or better remedy situations like this. | |||
The originally requested change was to include the term "controversial" in the lead sentence. | |||
Best, | |||
From this... | |||
*"Gun show loophole, also called the private sale exemption, is a '''political term''' in the United States referring to the sale of firearms by private sellers..." | |||
To this... | |||
*"Gun show loophole, also called the private sale exemption, is a '''controversial term''' in the United States referring to the sale of firearms by private sellers..." | |||
] (]) 17:02, 5 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
I began the discussion by asking for some neutral ] around Oct. 3rd, per ], and added an NPOV tag . | |||
:@]Thank you for bringing up these important points. It's clear that there's a need for careful scrutiny and consistent application of Misplaced Pages's policies to ensure accuracy and neutrality in our articles. | |||
I was given various sources of different quality that use terms such as "so-called", "notorious" and ones that said that only gun control advocates use that term or invented it, which seems a dubious assertion to me, given the NRA and the GOA rant on and on about how "The Gun Show Loophole" doesn't exist. | |||
:Regarding the Tucker quote and Pearson's involvement, it's essential to rely on verifiable sources and avoid original research. If a reliable source supports the claim that Pearson published in JIES, then it can be included. However, if the source is questionable, it should be approached with caution. | |||
* | |||
:The characterization of the JIES as "racialist" and "Aryanist" is a serious allegation. It's crucial to base such claims on solid evidence from reliable sources. Simply reading a few articles may not be sufficient to make such a sweeping judgment. If there are specific examples of racist or discriminatory content in the journal, they should be cited and discussed in a neutral manner. | |||
* | |||
:The Aquillion comment about the "flat Earth" scenario highlights a potential limitation of Misplaced Pages's policies. While it's important to be open to diverse viewpoints, it's equally important to maintain a high standard of quality and accuracy. In cases where there is a clear consensus among reliable sources, it's important to prioritize that consensus over fringe theories. | |||
* | |||
:The issue of unsourced content in the Journal of the Royal Statistical Society is a valid concern. However, it's important to consider the context and purpose of such sections. If these sections are intended to stimulate discussion and debate, rather than present definitive facts, then they may not require strict adherence to sourcing guidelines. ] (]) 06:14, 7 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
* | |||
::Everything being discussed is appropriately sourced to ]. ] (]) 12:07, 7 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
* | |||
:::Also please have the respect for other people not to reply with a textwall of obvious chatbot glurge. ] (]) 12:09, 7 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
* | |||
=== notability concerns === | |||
I only found 1 recent RS that uses the term "controversial" in this context, but the article doesn't seem to explain why it's controversial. . IMO we have more neutral high quality sources that do not use such terms. | |||
* Gonna skip all the conversation above and ask an honest question... can we just delete it? states it has an h-index of 10, and states an impact factor of 0.2. It doesn't seem like it would survive ]. ] (]) 20:47, 3 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
*:Did AfD: ] ] (]) 20:59, 3 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
*::The result was '''speedy keep'''.] (]) 17:25, 20 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
== ] & ] == | |||
In my view the editor(s) haven't acknowledged that they may be inserting ] and ] in ] into the lead sentence. One of their edit summaries seemed to accuse me of WP:OWN , while others seem to claim that past attempts, which I subsequently reverted, represent a legitimate ''current'' consensus despite these past editors not being presently active on the talk page at this point and failing to gain consensus, provide citations, and appearing POVish etc... | |||
Some IPv6 has opinions about ] & ]. Can someone who knows about such things please take a look? Thanks, ] (]) 07:27, 5 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
Considering the numerous past discussions on NPOV that also considered the usefulness of adding the term "controversy" , including at ANI , I decided to chalk it up to a simple misunderstanding per ]. | |||
== Confusing language from a Mark Biondich source related to Balkans == | |||
I made an attempt to achieve consensus by including some of the requested wording into the last paragraph , but it was quickly rejected. | |||
"In the period between 1878 and 1912, as many as two million Muslims emigrated voluntarily or involuntarily from the Balkans. When one adds those who were killed or expelled between 1912 and 1923, the number of Muslim casualties from the Balkan far exceeds three million. By 1923 fewer than one million remained in the Balkans.": https://books.google.com/books?id=gt8SDAAAQBAJ&q=Muslims+casualties+millions+Balkans&pg=PA93 | |||
I'm all for trying to improve this article, but it's past time for some consensus and or explanation on whether reverting the lead back to the version it was ten years ago on the ] article (current version BTW), is somehow better. Maybe I am the only one that sees a nearly 10 year old ]. | |||
Why would Mark Biondich add those "killed or expelled" to those Muslims who emigrated to mean deaths as is stated in the ] article. As I see it from a neutral viewpoint, he refers to the reduction of Balkan Muslims as "casualties from the Balkans". | |||
Cheers to all the impartial editors willing to comment here or at the article talk page. ] (]) 03:14, 10 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
I would like to get other viewpoints and advice related to these. ] (]) 12:24, 6 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
:I would simply state that this was, and is, an ongoing conversation with consensus building on the article talk page itself around simply describing the term as reliable sources currently do (which is to say that there is a multitude of heated opinions about the very validity of the term, a.k.a. "controversial", but I think "disputed", "contested", or any number of various synonums would suffice. "So called" is how the majority of reliable sources seem to describe the term, and while normally that would be a weasel word to avoid, if the RSes use the language directly, then we are generally obligated to follow in using the language of the RSes, but felt that "controversial" might actually be a bit of a best-of-all-worlds compromise of sorts indeed given the ] nature of this specific article. @] said repeatedly he or she would bring this before the NPOVN, while myself and other editors currently working on building consensus on the talk page of the article (in a direction that clearly was against the liking of DN) have asked for patience and cited the essay ]. | |||
:Happy to continue to work on consensus building at the article's talk page and welcome any other input that others might be able to offer. ] (]) 16:42, 10 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::It's been a week, and you haven't provided a single NEUTRAL source explaining what the controversy is. ] (]) 21:52, 10 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::Nearly all of the sources provided, excluding possibly the Nat Interest as you already pointed out, were reliable secondary sources and which use language describing the term in a highly charged and controversial manner. I already provided direct quotes from the body of each of them on the article's talk page as well. ] (]) 22:00, 10 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::That is a dubious assertion. Please quote them here. What do the neutral sources say about why it's controversial? ] (]) 22:07, 10 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::It's pretty clear cut. Without doubt it's controversial. Are people not able to view the sources be presented? <span style="font-weight:bold;color:darkblue">]</span>🍁 22:09, 10 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::They are all on the talk page here if you or anyone else wants to participate. We were building consensus there and still are. ] ] (]) 22:10, 10 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::I will repost here, but I believe it would have been best to keep the conversation in one location, there are far more sources on this too, but these were just some that I found: | |||
:::::::1. From Forbes, "The Justice Department announced new rules that would force unlicensed gun sellers who primarily sell firearms at gun shows and online marketplaces to register with the federal government—a significant change that could close the notorious “gun show loophole” https://www.forbes.com/sites/zacharyfolk/2024/04/11/biden-closes-gun-show-loophole-heres-what-to-know-and-when-rule-comes-into-effect/ | |||
:::::::2. From CNN, "In a preliminary injunction issued Tuesday, US District Judge Matthew Kacsmaryk said the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives cannot enforce the rule intended to close the so-called gun show loophole in Texas, Louisiana, Mississippi and Utah." https://www.cnn.com/2024/06/12/politics/gun-show-loophole-injunction-texas-kacsmaryk/index.html#:~:text=The%20new%20ATF%20rule,%20which%20took%20effect%20May%2020,%20seeks | |||
:::::::3. From NBC, "The Biden administration announced Thursday that it is proposing a rule to eliminate the so-called gun show loophole — one of the biggest attempts to regulate the sale of firearms in years." https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/biden-administration-proposes-eliminating-gun-show-loophole-regulation-rcna102800 | |||
:::::::4. From National Interest (only potentially non-RS, but I do not see it on the RSP list, so it is not unreliable either), "In reality, there is no “gun show loophole.” If an individual wants to purchase a firearm from a licensed firearms retailer, which typically makes up the majority of vendors at gun shows, the individual must fill out the requisite federal firearms paperwork and undergo a National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) background check."https://nationalinterest.org/feature/10-myths-about-guns-america-14850 ] (]) 22:12, 10 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::::The Forbes article is easily misread. Where it says "a significant change that could close the notorious “gun show loophole”....The significant change is referring to the ]. Bipartisan, meaning "supported by members of two parties, especially two major political parties". ] (]) 23:03, 10 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::Yet the "gun show loophole" is labeled there as "notorious", which one might say would be a decent way of describing something that is "controversial" don't you think? ] (]) 23:08, 10 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::Otherwise, it could just as easily have said, "a significant change that could close the gun show loophole", the "significant change" still would then be referring to the BSCA of course, but the nature of ''how'' the gun show loophole is being described by reliable sources is what we are discussing. In that regard, the language chosen by the reliable sources is, at minimum, describing a term that is highly charged and controversial to its very core. ] (]) 23:13, 10 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::How many neutral high quality sources describe it as notorious? Enough to justify putting it in the lead sentence? | |||
:::::::::::If the loophole is notorious, as in, notable in a bad sense, does that mean it does exist and gun rights advocates are wrong? ] (]) 23:24, 10 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::{{tqb|which one might say would be a decent way of describing something that is "controversial" don't you think?}} | |||
::::::::::That's called original research. I don't get paid enough to make inferences sources don't explicitly state on Misplaced Pages. ] (] • ]) 02:50, 11 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::Controversial according to the NRA, definitely. ] (]) 22:18, 10 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::Controversial to both left and right sources. Not just "the NRA"... You have I think helpfully introduced an important follow up question DN, which is ''Why is it controversial?'' But that is a ancillary point to what we are discussing here. Which is just: Should the term "Gun show loophole" be called "controversial" in the lead? Or, alternatively some other variant such as "disputed", "contested", or some other term. That is the only aspect of what is being discussed, and you have made your argument that you feel no such label of any kind is needed. I do genuinely feel your "why" question matters, but it is a secondary question to the discussion at hand. ] (]) 22:24, 10 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::::Explaining "the why" is actually the purpose of an encyclopedia. What do you think it does? ] (]) 22:33, 10 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::The ''why'' is just ''one'' part (which can be part of the lead as well, in addition to being explained more thoroughly in the body... ancillary to the core of this discussion though)... the ''what'' is another, and the words that we use should accurately reflect the way that reliable, most often secondary sources, write about each and every subject which is notable enough to have its own Misplaced Pages article as part of this encyclopedia. ] (]) 22:39, 10 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::Pretty easy to find it seems to be all related to unregistered sellers and buyers...... Even Layman sources explain this.. This is covered in the article..... That by the way is very interesting read... As someone from a non-gun loving country it's just interesting to see how people get around these things. <span style="font-weight:bold;color:darkblue">]</span>🍁 22:45, 10 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::Which part explains it? ] (]) 22:51, 10 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::It's in the article all over or are you referring to the sources being presented? (Do you need access to the sources) The opinion section is great in explaining even to someone new to the topic like myself. <span style="font-weight:bold;color:darkblue">]</span>🍁 23:28, 10 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::::I realize it's in the article and yes I have access. What words does the article use to explain why GSL is controversial? ] (]) 23:31, 10 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::::Its pretty clear to anyone who reads the article and the sources there that call it contentious and/or controversial. For example ". Even adolescence publications use the term ... Thus indicating how widespread the terminology is used. It's very odd debate over one word that is clearly sourced all over. Let's see what others have to say. <span style="font-weight:bold;color:darkblue">]</span>🍁 23:42, 10 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::::::You keep saying it's clear without showing us where the explanation is. I have already presented the NBC article which also doesn't explain it. | |||
::::::::::::::The Teen Vogue article is just commentary ie OPINION by Prince Shakur. The article says..."In recent decades, however, gun culture has become increasingly controversial in the United States." | |||
::::::::::::::However, it does NOT seem to say that GSL is "controversial" ] (]) 00:32, 11 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::::::Anyone has the ability to search these terms and should before commenting (I get hundreds of hits). The term has been used for over three decades from what I can see.... I'm not seeing a debate that controversial is even a debate its just there in the context of the loophole. Is there some controversy over partisan usage? <span style="font-weight:bold;color:darkblue">]</span>🍁 00:47, 11 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::::::::In terms of NEUTRALITY, yes. ] (]) 00:52, 11 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::::::::I can agree it was considered controversial in 1999, per your source, but in 2024, much less so. ] (]) 00:55, 11 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::::::::Then why is it used in a source dealing with the current president? Or by NBC in . To be honest the whole topic sounds controversial let alone the term used. Seems like in the States this is a decades long debated. Even the centrist publication politico use the term . <span style="font-weight:bold;color:darkblue">]</span>🍁 01:11, 11 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::::::::::Because it has no value in the lead sentence. Misplaced Pages is not a newspaper and we are supposed to remain neutral. Other sources say "so-called" which again ignores ] and ] respectively. | |||
::::::::::::::::::See ]. We are supposed to DESCRIBE the controversy, not ]. | |||
::::::::::::::::::Cheers. ] (]) 01:20, 11 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::::::::::We should explained to our readers it is a controversial term and subject as the sources do and lead our readers to more exhaustive information ]. Why leave our readers in the dark to guess or click source after source to get this information? Topics of this nature should be edited by people who don't have a vested interest in them. <span style="font-weight:bold;color:darkblue">]</span>🍁 01:29, 11 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::::::::::::I'm getting Deja Vu here. Where do these articles EXPLAIN the controversy? | |||
::::::::::::::::::::Speaking of vested interest, the majority of sources that call this controversial are not academic or high quality. These days, many of the ones <s>saying</s> EXPLAINING how it is controversial seem to be OPINION based. ] (]) 01:35, 11 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::::::::::::Again many types of sources cover this topic and why from juvenile publications to academic publications such as.... | |||
:::::::::::::::::::::{{cite book | last=Chambliss | first=W.J. |authorlink=William Chambliss | title=Crime and Criminal Behavior | publisher=SAGE Publications | series=Key Issues in Crime and Punishment | year=2011 | isbn=978-1-4129-7855-2 | url=https://books.google.ca/books?id=-vFVSXraoA8C&pg=PA122 | access-date=2024-10-11 | page=122|quote=One controversial route to gun acquisition comes from what gun control proponents refer to as the gun show loophole}} | |||
:::::::::::::::::::::Even encyclopedias cover this.. | |||
:::::::::::::::::::::{{cite book | last=Schildkraut | first=J. | last2=Carter | first2=G.L. | title=Guns in American Society: An Encyclopedia of History, Politics, Culture, and the Law | publisher=Bloomsbury Publishing | year=2022 | isbn=978-1-4408-6774-3 | url=https://books.google.ca/books?id=I8HSEAAAQBAJ&pg=PA290 | access-date=2024-10-11 | page=290|quote="gun show loophole” remains a contentious goal of the gun control movement.}} <span style="font-weight:bold;color:darkblue">]</span>🍁 02:32, 11 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::::::::::::::"Controversial '''route'''" and "'''contentious''' goal"... see ]. ] (]) 02:46, 11 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::::::Reading the sources, it's not clear to me whether they think it's the {{em|term}} that's "controversial" or the loophole itself that's {{tq|well known for some bad quality}} (i.e. notorious). ] (] • ]) 02:54, 11 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
{{od}} | |||
I have made a final BOLD attempt in the last paragraph of the lead to try to find consensus on the talk page. | |||
*Since the mid-1990s, gun control advocates have campaigned for universal background checks and an end to the gun show loophole. Advocates for gun rights find the subject controversial and dispute the existence of a loophole since current laws provide rules for commercial gun sellers regardless of the place of sale, and do not regulate non-commercial, intrastate transfers of legal firearms between private citizens.<ref>{{cite web|last1=Kopel|first1=David|title=The Facts About Gun Shows|url=http://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/facts-about-gun-shows|website=Cato Institute|access-date=12 July 2016}}</ref> | |||
Cheers. ] (]) 03:09, 11 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
{{reftalk}} | |||
:{{u|Theofunny}}, the way I understand your interpretation, when Biondich says "the number of Muslim casualties from the Balkan far exceeds three million", you think this includes those expelled, right? So you think the word "casualties" do not mean only deaths. Is this correct? ] (]) 13:24, 6 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
:Responding to the top post, just expressing support for {{u|DeCausa}}'s edit . No need for the "term" business in the first sentence. That said, IMO it could be simpler: "The gun show loophole is a legal exception in the United States that allows the private sale of firearms without requiring a background check for the buyer." — <samp>] <sup style="font-size:80%;">]</sup></samp> \\ 17:01, 11 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:: |
::Yes exactly. Like even in a war, the term casualties is quite flexible and is a source for confusion as it could mean all who are dead or all are dead as well as injured. ] (]) 13:28, 6 December 2024 (UTC) | ||
::: |
:::Later in the page he uses the term "victims" for "dead, wounded, and refugees". I don't think the term is as flexible as you think. ] (]) 13:42, 6 December 2024 (UTC) | ||
::::Generally "casualties" includes dead and wounded. Including refugees is a bit novel but I don't think it's unduly confusing provided it's described with care. ] (]) 13:48, 6 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
:The key to this discussion is that there is absolutely not a consensus over whether the term itself is even a validly neutral term simply describing a phenomenon of policy, law, or otherwise, or if the term itself is a tool of propaganda. By calling the situation a "loophole", which many say is no such loophole at all, the mere usage of the term does advance one side of the argument, even without further definition. Therefore, if we were to follow the reliable sources which report on this term, they often say "so-called Gun show loophole", "controversial Gun show loophole" or some other such descriptor. I am sure there is also controversy surrounding both the term as well as the related policy, but at the moment the only discussion is really based around whether or not the term itself is neutrally used without any further commentary (and that is simply not how the reliable sources use the term, they always seem to couch it with additional descriptive language). If we were to quote from the source Rhododendrites just cited for example, many claim "there is no loophole" at all, which is why something to the effect of "the term is controversial" in the lead of the article is both warranted and heavily supported by numerous reliable sources. | |||
:::::The question is, is my rewording in the article ] correct? {{tq|The historian Mark Biondich estimates that, in the 19th and early 20th centuries, more than three million Muslims from the Balkan area died, and around two million Muslims were displaced.}} ] (]) 13:51, 6 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
:" 'Close the gun show loophole,' demands Handgun Control, Inc. The major obstacle to Congress’s complying with HCI’s wishes appears to be the desire of many Democrats to preserve gun shows as a campaign issue in the 2000 election. But if the voters learn the facts about gun shows, {{tq|they will discover that there is no gun show loophole}}, no gun show crime problem and no reason to adopt federal legislation whose main effect would be to infringe on First and Second Amendment rights." ] (]) 17:18, 11 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::Those numbers don't seem to line up with what the OP posted as a quote from the source. Can you please elaborate? ] (]) 14:00, 6 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
::There should be an article on the phenomenon, whose existence is not seriously in doubt, of private firearms purchases that do not require background checks. If there's a better article title available, we should start a requested move discussion. The article about that phenomenon should not start by discussing the controversial nature of the term, but with a plain description of the phenomenon itself. If this means waiting a while before the bold restatement of the title, that'd be fine. ] (] / ]) 19:26, 11 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::I had interpreted the quote from the source as how Biondich calculated the number of deaths (casualties). ] (]) 14:04, 6 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::There has been much discussion over the title, and we discussed naming the article Gun show loophole controversy at one point if you want to check the archive, but we seemed to stick with ]. | |||
::::::::{{tq|"In the period between 1878 and 1912, as many as two million Muslims emigrated voluntarily or involuntarily from the Balkans. When one adds those who were killed or expelled between 1912 and 1923, the number of Muslim casualties from the Balkan far exceeds three million. By 1923 fewer than one million remained in the Balkans."}} He says 2 million left between 1878 and 1912. He says more than another million ("When one '''adds'''...") left or died between 1912 and 1923. (The number who died or left 1912-1923 is added to the number who left 1878-1912 to equal "far exceeds three million".) The source does not support any number that died because he groups those who left in the same estimate. ] ] 14:12, 6 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::Sources do not always describe the term as controversial. | |||
:::::::::Yeah my concern is that the two figures seem to be divided chronologically but not by type. So we can't determine what percentage of the three million were killed rather than expelled or wounded. ] (]) 14:17, 6 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::These days, sources say closing the gun show loophole through universal background checks appears to enjoy high levels of public support on both sides of the aisle. See ]. | |||
:@]+1 ] (]) 08:15, 7 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::The concern here is that the term is ] via ], and really doesn't provide any informational value other than to to give unconfirmable assertions the appearance of fact. See ] | |||
:::*Avoid stating opinions as facts. | |||
:::*Avoid stating seriously contested assertions as facts. | |||
:::*Avoid stating facts as opinions. | |||
:::*Prefer nonjudgmental language. | |||
:::*Indicate the relative prominence of opposing views. | |||
:::I can agree that certain prominent opinions say that it is a controversial term but they are opinions that tend to be attributed to gun rights advocates. ] (]) 19:38, 11 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::I am open to a renaming of the term, but feel that reliable sources do use it often enough, though they do very often speak of it with that exact language mentioned in ]. We are advised according to the MOS in those instances to use the language often used by the reliable sources, "Value-laden labels...may express contentious opinion and are best avoided {{tq|unless widely used by reliable sources to describe the subject}}, in which case use ] attribution." We should absolutely include all of the aforementioned sources in the lead when we add "controversial" to the lead of this article, which is not always required in the lead (body normally being sufficient), but in this case, due to the contentious nature of the subject it is warranted. ] (]) 19:55, 11 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::The current iteration already takes it a step further and devotes the entire last paragraph to explaining the opinions of both sides. ] (]) 19:57, 11 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::That is more of the "why" you were focused on, the "what" still revolves around the term itself being contested, controversial, disputed, or simply not agreed upon in terms of use and meaning, therefore we need to include that per ] which says, "The lead should stand on its own as a concise overview of the article's topic. It should identify the topic, establish context, explain why the topic is notable, and summarize the most important points, {{tq|including any prominent controversies.}}" The "controversy" in this case being the term itself according to the reliable sources. ] (]) 20:02, 11 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::We need to remain neutral and give each side their DUE WEIGHT, by not leaving out sources that do not call this term controversial, such as this https://publichealth.jhu.edu/center-for-gun-violence-solutions/2024/what-does-closing-the-gun-show-loophole-do. It was an arduous task getting this article to GA status, and we did it by not putting one opinion over the other in VOICE. ] (]) 20:14, 11 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::::Right, but the majority of sources claim some form of controversial nature attached to the term itself, including "so-called" as discussed previously ad nauseum, or call it as such outright. It is also placing ] weight to ''not include'' the descriptor most accurately describing the term according to reliable sources. That is in fact an editorial decision that runs directly counter to the language used by the reliable sources when reporting on and referring to the term "Gun show loophole." ] (]) 20:20, 11 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::I feel like we are going in circles because we aren't acknowledging why that conflicts with ], ] and ]. It seems like you are claiming that sources that don't describe the term as controversial are somehow ]. You have yet to provide neutral high quality sources that EXPLAIN why the TERM itself is controversial, as opposed to the debate over it. ] (]) 20:25, 11 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::Do the sources you refer to say the TERM is controversial or the debate? ] (]) 20:29, 11 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::The sources you provided aren't exactly clear on whether they are referring to the TERM or the debate/perception/opinion. See ]. ] (]) 21:12, 11 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
{{od}} | {{od}} | ||
Thanks everyone! Looks like I was incorrect in this one due to my misinterpretation of the word "casualty". | |||
Here's a more academic source that explains the term WITHOUT using the term "controversial", like most ] organizations might. | |||
I was also confused because McCarthy and Kaser give much higher number of deaths, around 5 million, in ]. So 3 million made more sense. | |||
*The term "Gun Show Loophole" came about as a result of the passage of the Firearm Owners Protection Act of 1986 and the Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act of 1993.<ref>{{Cite journal |last=Goddard |first=Andrew |date=2009 |title=A View Through the Gun Show Loophole |url=https://scholarship.richmond.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1170&context=jolpi |journal=Richmond Journal of Law and the public interest |volume=12 |issue=4 |pages=1}}</ref><ref>{{Cite journal |last=Goddard |first=Andrew |date=2009-01-01 |title=A View through the Gun Show Loophole |url=https://scholarship.richmond.edu/jolpi/vol12/iss4/10/ |journal=Richmond Journal of Law and the Public Interest |volume=12 |issue=4 |pages=357–361}}</ref> | |||
{{reftalk}} | |||
Cheers. ] (]) 21:55, 11 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
Now I see that it has to do with dates. It should have been clear from the quote actually, but looks like I missed it. | |||
The simplest solution is ], as we have tried to do with the last paragraph in the lead. Why put "controversial" in ] and ignore high quality sources like the one above? ] (]) 00:02, 12 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
The Balkans: Revolution, War, and Political Violence since 1878 is available through Misplaced Pages Library. | |||
Besides the fact is that it isn't entirely clear whether news sources are referring to the term or the actual loophole, we must also consider that GSL is referred to by many names. It is also called the private sale loophole, the private sale exemption, the private seller loophole, the Brady bill loophole, Brady law loophole etc...etc...etc... While the "Gun show loophole" is likely the first prominent term for it{{cn}}, the fact remains that is not the only nomenclature for GSL. See ] ] (]) 09:42, 12 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
Page 94: | |||
{{tq2|When one adds those who were killed or expelled between 1912 and 1923, the number of Muslim casualties from the Balkan far exceeds three million. By 1923 fewer than one million remained in the Balkans.157}} | |||
Source 157: | |||
{{tq2|157. Mazower, The Balkans, pp. xxxvii–xxxviii; and McCarthy, Ottoman Peoples, 149–62}} | |||
Biondich gives same numbers and sources in chapter , page 1: | |||
:I can see why DN would want to change the opening sentence from "political" to "controversial" as the term clearly is controversial. It's also political as it's used to try to influence/sway public opinion to push for a policy change. Why not just say both? Is there an issue with this version of the lead, restored by DN, last January? , "''Gun show loophole is a political term in the United States referring to the sale of firearms by private sellers, including those done at gun shows, that do not require the seller to conduct a federal background check of the buyer. This is also called the private sale exemption.''" I think it's clear the term is controversial and the last paragraph of the lead says as much. I don't think the current lead is as good since the political/controversial nature of the term should be made clear. ] (]) 12:00, 12 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
{{tq2|The road from Berlin to Lausanne was littered with millions of casualties. Between 1878 and 1912, millions of Balkan Muslims emigrated or were forced from the region. When one adds up those who were killed or expelled between the Balkan Wars (1912–13) and Greco-Turkish War (1919–22), the number of Balkan-Muslim casualties may have exceeded three million. By 1923, fewer than one million Muslims remained in the Balkans.1<br/>...<br/>1 Mark Mazower, The Balkans: A Short History (New York: Random House, 2002), xxxvii–xxxviii;<br/>Justin McCarthy, The Ottoman Peoples and the End of Empire (London: Arnold, 2001), 149–62.}} | |||
::No need for either. We don't need to make the subject of the article a term to talk about how the naming is controversial. "The gun show loophole is the exception to background check laws for private sales" is simple. Then, after describing the subject, explain that there's disagreement over whether to call it a "loophole". I'm unlikely to edit that article anytime soon, but for the record I oppose any "term" framing. — <samp>] <sup style="font-size:80%;">]</sup></samp> \\ 15:15, 12 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::Exactly my thoughts as well. I barely have an opinion on whether to use "political" or "controversial" or some other descriptor when discussing the term, but the article needs to start with discussion of the topic, not the term. ] (] / ]) 17:44, 12 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::Well, since I made that's been fixed - although it could definitely been improved with {{u|Rhododendrites}} more succinct version. My edit hasn't been challenged so I'm unclear whether there's any point to this thread anymore. Is the issue about the article name instead? ] (]) 18:00, 12 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::Although the subject of the article is the topic (i.e. that U.S. federal law does not require background checks for private sales) and not the term -- and thanks for fixing that -- part of the article can still discuss the term itself. And some people -- especially but not exclusively gun rights supporters -- object to the term, and say that it's misleading or confusing. But there's not agreement about how to explain that in the article. That's the main point of this thread, I believe. "P.S." Re topic vs. term, the article hatnote should still be adjusted too. <span style="font-family: cursive;">— ]<small><sup> (])</sup></small></span> 18:35, 12 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::Is the term really agreed upon though? Can an article just start talking about a term when the term itself is deeply controversial in terms of how its meaning and definition is even understood? I saw the DeCausa point, but cheese is not controversial, we all agree on what cheese is. The only thing agreed here too on a "sky-is-blue" type level is that the term itself is indeed controversial, but then the policy around what it means is a separate debate and whether or not that policy is beneficial or not is all also ancillary and additional information beyond the initial point as reliable sources discuss. ] (]) 18:42, 12 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::We'll see if there are anymore objections when someone removes the NPOV TAG, or we could take a poll. ] (]) 08:52, 14 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::I agree with DeCausa, Rhododendrites and Firefangledfeathers, as they are the most impartial editors yet to comment here. ] (]) 23:01, 12 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::Are you suggesting other editors aren't impartial? What do you consider your level of impartiality? ] (]) 02:01, 14 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::Obviously I brought this issue here because I'm involved and impartiality is not only relevant, it's essential, as is assuming good faith. ] (]) 08:36, 14 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::It's probably better to say involved vs impartial. I'm also uninvolved I've never edited the article or it's talk page. ] (]) 10:18, 14 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::I agree with @] except for one addition based on the entirety of this discussion was adding the following based on how the reliable sources use language on this term, "''Gun show loophole is a controversial political term in the United States referring to the sale of firearms by private sellers, including those done at gun shows, that do not require the seller to conduct a federal background check of the buyer. This is also called the private sale exemption''." | |||
::That keeps both political and controversial in the lead, which accurately describes how the reliable sources for the most part deal with the term itself and then also gets right into the concept as well without confusing the reader. ] (]) 18:44, 12 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::Would it work for all involved if the "political"/"controversial" label was placed in a second sentence rather than the first? I think the political nature of the term should be in the opening few sentences but I can see, when if I don't agree with, the arguments for not having it in the opening sentence. ] (]) 19:24, 12 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::I think it would be at least helpful to see what it might look like as part of a ] attempt to resolve the discussion, I support making the edit and we can discuss whether or not it is genuinely an improvement then or not. ] (]) 19:28, 12 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::Where are the sources that say this is a "controversial TERM", or even a "political TERM", for that matter? ] (]) 22:56, 12 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::Hang on. ]. Maybe the article can deal with the controversy around the term. But that can't be anything to do with the first sentence or, I would say, the first paragraph. That should summarise the substance of what the article is about. If there are any issues about the name then that should be dealt with through ] or an etymology section, and certainly not in the first paragraph. That should be only about what '''substantively''' is covered by the article. I speak as Brit who knows nothing about the substance of the article, never heard about the issue until 2 days ago and is just basing my view on WP first principles. ] (]) 23:13, 12 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::I agree. What I've tried to do is ] in the last paragraph. ] (]) 23:25, 12 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::I think 4 paragraphs in is way to far. Part of the issue with the term, the reason why it is referenced with things like "so called" is because, like many political labels, it is misleading. Consider this paper which which states, "''Federal law makes no distinction between sales occurring at gun shows and other sales; there is no such thing as a gun show loophole. ''". Politifact also weighs in on some of the issues (see section 3). Here is another PF article (run by another source) which makes a similar point about the issues with the term itself. I don't think it is reasonable to put the controversial nature of the term any further down than somewhere within the opening paragraph. If the scope of the article is really going to be private party sales then the article should be renamed to the inherently less political title and the discussion of the "gun show loophole" can be treated as a sub topic. ] (]) 03:08, 13 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::::It's not clear from the sources whether the loophole is controversial because it allows otherwise prohibited people from buying guns or because it isn't actually a loophole. IOW is the term controversial or the policy? ] (]) 10:06, 13 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::I think the term is controversial because it is misleading. I mean when we have a noted researcher saying there is no such thing as the gun show loophole, that certainly suggests the name is not accurate to what is typically being described. ] (]) 01:51, 14 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::::The idea was to spend the first 3 paragraphs focusing on facts explaining why and what it is to give context to the ] in the last paragraph. If there is a consensus by impartial editors for such a change I am open to it, but it doesn't seem prudent. POV in the lead should be minimal as possible AFAIK, but I'm no expert. | |||
::::::::Back to the topic at hand. The first source you cited does not seem to claim the gun show loophole is a controversial or political term, but please correct me if I missed it. It is about a 2008 "Fatally Flawed Study Yields Misleading Results" by the NBER. ], one of the author's of this source, is already quoted in the GSL article (Notable Opinions) stating "The fundamental flaw in the gun show loophole proposal is its failure to address the great majority of private-party sales, which occur at other locations and increasingly over the Internet at sites where any non-prohibited person can list firearms for sale and buyers can search for private-party sellers."<ref>{{Cite book |last=Webster |first=Daniel W. |url=https://www.google.com/books/edition/Reducing_Gun_Violence_in_America/sQxNVhV-W7oC?hl=en&gbpv=1&pg=PA95&printsec=frontcover |title=Reducing Gun Violence in America: Informing Policy with Evidence and Analysis |last2=Vernick |first2=Jon S. |date=2013-01-25 |publisher=JHU Press |isbn=978-1-4214-1110-1 |language=en}}</ref> | |||
::::::::Section 3. from PF also does not appear to call it a controversial or political term, but again, correct me if I'm wrong here. I would also note that the NRA often cites 's work. | |||
::::::::The PF repost in the Austin American Statesman seems like they used a collection of sources to write a ''commentary'', also does not seem to use "political" or "controversial" to describe the term either from what I could parse, but again, maybe I might have missed it. | |||
::::::::We also have other academic sources that do not call the term political or controversial, including a Richmond VA Law Journal piece written specifically about GSL. It's quite succinct and to the point.<ref>{{Cite journal |last=Goddard |first=Andrew |date=2009-01-01 |title=A View through the Gun Show Loophole |url=https://scholarship.richmond.edu/jolpi/vol12/iss4/10/ |journal=Richmond Journal of Law and the Public Interest |volume=12 |issue=4 |pages=357–361}}</ref> | |||
{{reftalk}} | |||
::::::::Cheers. ] (]) | |||
:::::::::The source you provided, despite being an editorial, seems to support the idea that the term is controversial by noting the opposing views of those who are familiar with the law. It notes that gun rights advocates note that this isn't a loophole in the law, rather that what how the laws were designed. At the same time the author clearly is concerned that the law has ambiguity over who doesn't require a permit to sell and that private party sellers can attend a gun show thus connecting with buyers. So again, the issues with the term are illustrated even by a source that isn't sympathetic to the gun rights side of things. ] (]) 02:00, 14 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::{{tq|"The source you provided, despite being an editorial, seems to support the idea that the term is controversial by noting the opposing views of those who are familiar with the law"}} | |||
:::::::::It's from a ], and we don't try to draw conclusions from sources per ]. Let's look at the text... | |||
:::::::::*The term "Gun Show Loophole" came about as a result of the passage of the Firearm Owners Protection Act of 1986 and the Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act of 1993. | |||
:::::::::*These laws effectively created a dual standard for gun sales based on the federal license status of the seller. The Brady Act mandated that licensed gun dealers must conduct criminal background checks on potential buyers regardless of whether the sale takes place at the dealer's store or at a gun show, whereas the Firearm Owners Protection Act expressly exempted "persons making occasional sales or selling all or part of a personal collection" from the need to obtain a federal license to sell firearms. | |||
:::::::::*Thus, a private individual who is not considered to be "engaged in the business" of buying and selling guns, or who sells occasionally, is not required, or even allowed, to conduct a background check on a prospective buyer. | |||
:::::::::*The reason for the exception to the background check requirement for private sellers was to allow for the unregulated sale or transfer of guns between friends and relatives or the "occasional" sale of guns by individuals from their personal collection. | |||
:::::::::*The gun lobby argues that since this exception was included in the original intent of the laws it is not technically a loophole. | |||
:::::::::*The counter argument is that many private sellers at gun shows exploit the vague definition of "engaged in the business" and the equally undefined concept of "occasional" sales. | |||
:::::::::*While some private sellers at gun shows do indeed only sell one or two weapons and attend just one show as a seller, many gun show sellers who are not federally licensed buy and sell large numbers of guns and attend many shows each year. | |||
:::::::::*Therefore, a private seller using the exception written into the law in a way that was not originally intended creates what is in fact a loophole. | |||
:::::::::No mention of "controversial" or "political" so far. If you still feel this is inaccurate, please quote where the source mentions either of those things. ] (]) 05:06, 14 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::Many sources have said "so called..." Perhaps we could use that instead? The problem is trying to find a way to summarize the way the term is not treated as literal by many sources across the spectrum. ] (]) 10:22, 14 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::As per the sources provided by myself and various other contributors, it is evident that there is a significant controversy surrounding this term. According to ], it is crucial for the lead's definition of the term to acknowledge this controversy by labelling it as a "controversial term" or using similar terminology. It is inevitable that such terms will arise in an encyclopedia though infrequent. Alternatively, @Springee's's suggestion of referring to it as "so-called," as supported by numerous sources, appears to be an acceptable approach for the same reasons. While I understand @Darknipples's perspective, it is important to consider more than just the optics of the lead and prioritise accuracy. The disputed status quo of the article warrants a revision. ] (]) 16:11, 14 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::::{{tq|"controversy surrounding this term."}} | |||
::::::::::::We have tried to address these concerns by using ] to mention "controversial" in the last paragraph of the lead, and ] to determine that the lead sentence was improperly formed. ] (]) 18:02, 14 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::Again, it's not clear if these sources are referring to the term or the loophole/exemption itself. See ]. ] (]) 19:25, 14 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::I am open to the idea of ] to "Private sale exemption" if there is consensus that it will help resolve this NPOV "controversy" objection once and for all. The lead sentence could then read... | |||
::::::*'''Private sale exemption''', formerly called the gun show loophole, is the lack of mandatory background checks in the United States for private sales of firearms, including those done at gun shows. | |||
::::::What do we think? ] (]) 19:31, 15 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::Is that nearly as common though? It could be considered if it's close but we wouldn't normally override RS if there is a significant gap. ] (] • ]) 09:09, 16 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::::We should find out. They mean the same exact thing according to sources, so technical work should be nil. All the sources that use GSL should still have the same weight, but the title will be less "controversial" for those with POV concerns. I'm open to it as long as it puts this issue to bed with a consensus once and for all. ] (]) 11:24, 16 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::::Framing or assigning POV to either GSL or PSE in order to focus on CONTROVERSY is basically a ]. The idea here is to try to find a way to resolve the perceived inherent "controversy" that might be more attached to one term as opposed to the other. ] (]) 12:01, 16 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::I would like to propose changing the name of the article to "private sale exemption". Although I find your suggestion better than the current lead, I wonder what everyone thinks of renaming the page to "private sale exemption" and referring to "gun show loophole" as a colloquialism used by gun control advocates. As indicated in the lead presently, "gun show loophole" does not solely refer to the lack of background checks ONLY at gun shows. Please feel free to weigh in @Moxy @Darknipples @Springee @Mudwater @Iljhgtn. ] (]) 09:35, 16 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::::The Gun show loophole is the same thing as the Private sale exemption. GSL doesn't ONLY refer to private sales at gun shows. ] (]) 11:29, 16 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::::See ] ] (]) 12:02, 16 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::::I've been busy IRL so only a limited reply. PSE would be a more neutral title and I would support the move. GSL is an inherently inaccurate and political term. Private sale exemption is still somewhat POV since it labels this as an exemption vs the reverse which is when restrictions were applied they only applied to commercial sales. It would be like calling tax free sales at a yard sale a sales tax exemption. Still, I think it would nicely avoid the issues above. The GSL term could be a sub topic of the article and wouldn't need to be in the lead. ] (]) 12:13, 16 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::A version of the same subject framed solely in criticism or inaccuracy, already exists at ], in which the first sentence reads: | |||
:::::::::*"The so-called "Gun show loophole" is a controversial political term in the United States coined by gun control supporters{{cn}} that refers to sales of firearms by private sellers, including those done at gun shows." | |||
:::::::::I don't know whether or not PSE is a more common term than GSL at this point, but your "NPOV" version already exists over there. ] (]) 14:12, 16 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::Where would Gun Show Loophole redirect? The content needs to live at the redirect. ] (]) 14:49, 16 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::I'm suggesting a title change if it is warranted, not a redirect. | |||
:::::::::::RS says that PSE is simply another name for GSL. There is no difference between the two terms. We should not "move content to a new article page" because it is already treated in the current article. See ]... | |||
:::::::::::*"A POV fork is an attempt to evade the neutrality policy by creating a new article about a subject that is already treated in an article, often to avoid or highlight negative or positive viewpoints or facts. POV forks are not permitted on Misplaced Pages." | |||
:::::::::::Creating a separate article on the same topic, framed solely to highlight negative viewpoints, creates a ]. | |||
:::::::::::The only available reconciliation being proffered here is to see if PSE is a suitable title change. To attempt to create a POV fork is explicitly against policy AFAIK. ] (]) 20:31, 16 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::::I think we are misunderstanding each other. I think changing the name to the more accurate, less POV PSE is better than leaving it at GSL. I was asking about the redirect because people may search for "GSL" so we want it to go somewhere and you mentioned the GSL section of the Gunshow article. I assumed you meant all the discussion of the controversy around the name would be there. If you meant GSL -> PSE then I think we are both good. I just want to make sure you don't mean GSL -> GS#GSL_Name . If we are actually in agreement that the current article content wouldn't change (other than the name controversy could be moved out of the lead) then I think we are on the same page. | |||
::::::::::::What I would suggest is rename the current article then point GSL at the current article. We could change the intro to something like "PSE", also known as the GSL, is... I think most articles that talk about "GSL" also call it a PSE (or similar). At the same time, we don't have a lot of sources calling it the "so called SPE" or even scholars saying "the PSE doesn't exist". To avoid a POV fork it might make sense to have the GSL part of the GS article point to the part of PSE that talks about the controversy associated with the name. ] (]) 22:36, 16 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::::Thank you for adding clarification. ] (]) 00:02, 17 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
{{od}} | |||
Lets try to clarify this to concise points of contention in order to expedite a resolution. | |||
I don't have Justin McCarthy, The Ottoman Peoples and the End of Empire. But the book seems to cover 1912-1922 period of Ottoman Empire . So this aligns with the quote from Biondich. | |||
{{U|Mudwater}}, {{U|Fenharrow}}, {{U|Iljhgtn}}, {{U|Springee}}... | |||
This is what Mark Mazower, The Balkans: A Short History says, pages xxxvii–xxxviii | |||
'''1.''' Does the still violate NPOV in your opinion, despite "controversial" being mentioned in the last paragraph with attributed POV to gun rights advocates? Yes or No. | |||
{{tq2|Christian Europe’s blindness to Muslim victims overlooked the huge movements of populations triggered off by Ottoman decline. “People often talk in the West about transporting all the Turks, in other words Muslims, to Asia in order to turn Turkey in Europe into a uniquely Christian empire,” Ami Boué had written in 1854. “This would be a decree as inhumane as the expulsion of the Jews from Spain, or of Protestants from France, and indeed scarcely feasible since the Europeans always forget that in Turkey in Europe the Muslims are mostly Slavs or Albanians, whose right to the land is as ancient as that of their Christian compatriots.” Yet, according to one estimate, nearly 5 million Muslims were driven from former Ottoman lands in the Balkans and the Black Sea region in the century after 1821; from the Balkans themselves between 1.7 and 2 million Muslims immigrated voluntarily or involuntarily between 1878 and 1913 to what would later become the republic of Turkey. The Turkish language declined as a regional lingua franca, urban settlements were taken over by Christian incomers and Ottoman buildings were deliberately demolished or left to rot. The dynamiting of mosques and other architectural masterpieces in Bosnia-Hercegovina in the early 1990s was thus the continuation in an extreme form of a process of de-Islamicization that had begun decades earlier.19}} | |||
'''2.''' Is the same "controversy" that is claimed to be attached to the term GSL also innately attached to the term Private sale exemption? Yes or No. | |||
{{tq|Gun show loophole, also called the private sale exemption, is the lack of mandatory background checks in the United States for private sales of firearms, including those done at gun shows. Under U.S. federal gun law, any person may sell a firearm to a federally unlicensed resident of the state where they reside, as long as they do not know or have cause to believe that the person is prohibited from possessing firearms, and as long as the seller is not "engaged in the business" of selling firearms.}} | |||
{{tq|Federal law requires Federal Firearms Licensed (FFL) stores, such as gun stores, pawn shops, outdoors stores and other licensees, to perform a background check of the buyer and record the sale, regardless of whether the sale takes place at the seller's regular place of business or at a gun show. Firearm sales between private individuals who reside in the same state – that is, sales in the "secondary market” and with an unlicensed dealer – are exempt from these federal requirements; however, in some states, it is the same. According to a statement by the United States Department of Justice in 2024, unlicensed dealers are a significant source of firearms that are illegally trafficked into communities.}} | |||
{{tq|Twenty-two U.S. states and the District of Columbia have laws that require background checks for some or all private sales, including sales at gun shows. In some of these states, such non-commercial sales also must be facilitated through a federally licensed dealer, who performs the background check and records the sale. In other states, gun buyers must first obtain a license or permit from the state, which performs a background check before issuing the license (thus typically not requiring a duplicative background check from a gun dealer).}} | |||
{{tq|Since the mid-1990s, gun control advocates have campaigned for universal background checks and an end to the gun show loophole. Advocates for gun rights find the subject controversial and dispute the existence of a loophole since current laws provide rules for commercial gun sellers regardless of the place of sale, and do not regulate non-commercial, intrastate transfers of legal firearms between private citizens.}} | |||
Cheers. ] (]) 18:44, 14 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:Apologies {{U|Moxy}}, I forgot to ping you as well with regard to the 2 questions listed directly above. Cheers. ] (]) 20:12, 14 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:1. Yes. The current lead is still inaccurate and relating to NPOV in need of major corrections. | |||
:2. Not to the same extent. @] did raise a brilliantly worded point though worth quoting from, "{{tq|Private sale exemption is still somewhat POV since it labels this as an exemption vs the reverse which is when restrictions were applied they only applied to commercial sales. It would be like calling tax free sales at a yard sale a sales tax exemption.}}" Though, like Springee, I agree that PSE is less problematic than GSL which is extremely problematic and needs serious revisions as it currently is live in the lead, or a total page move to revise this as @] says "once and for all" (though WP is a living encyclopedia so nothing is truly ever "once and for all" though I get what DN is aiming for. | |||
:I think the page move needs to be done at this point, but then the next question will be in wording the new lead most accurately to reflect the reliable sources. ] (]) 17:19, 16 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::Point taken, and while a title change might make sense, we cannot create or redirect to a separate article simply to focus on criticism. See ]... ] (]) 20:42, 16 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
=== Tools for determining title === | |||
The Google Books Ngram viewer (https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content) was recommended to me as a tool to help determine which title receives more results. From what I can tell GSL is currently the more dominant than PSE, but I could be mistaken. ] (]) 02:00, 18 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
=== Break === | |||
I have invited 2 more editors from the article talk page here to discuss the issue. It appears there is still talk of changing the lead sentence to defining the term despite ], regardless of the fact that it is already in the lead and attributed to . Since I still feel this may frame the subject in an UNDUE manner, I made another BOLD in order to try to resolve the issue. Cheers. ] (]) 01:08, 20 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
Something else that has not been addressed, is whether the prominence, or number, of neutral RS that use the terms "so-called" or "controversial" outweigh the number that don't, per ]. At this point we seem to have no idea the number of articles mentioning GSL or PSE or any of the articles referencing this subject by one of it's many names, are in the majority. On it's face, without evidence that the majority of neutral sources use these terms, the claim that it is DUE (in the lead sentence as opposed to the last paragraph where it currently is) appears illegitimate. ] (]) 22:23, 20 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:@]@]@]@]@] @]. Apologies in advance if I missed anybody. | |||
:'''1.Why GSL as an article title is inaccurate?''' | |||
:The lead of this ] says "Gun show loophole, also called the private sale exemption, is the lack of mandatory background checks in the United States for private sales of firearms, including those done at gun shows. " when that is clearly not the case as shown by multiple sources. | |||
:For example, source says that the term "gun show loophole" is "flawed" and fails to convey ALL the exemptions present to gun sales with background checks and some other sources merely say that the loophole refers to sales done via gun shows and online markets. | |||
:Clearly, this is not reflected in the lead as it says ALL private sales fall under the "loophole". | |||
:'''2. Proposal to rename this page "private sale of firearms" or "private sale of guns"''' | |||
:There are numerous sources that refer to the sale of guns by individuals without a background check as "private sales" and that is just calling it what it is, and suggests no "controversy" and/or is not even a "political term" like the great "gun show loophole". | |||
: in its article call the selling of firearms by individuals "private gun sales" or "private sale of firearms" | |||
:ATF and its various call it "private sales" | |||
: | |||
:Note that these US government sources, even though they intend to "close the loophole", are not calling it something preposterous like the "Gun show loophole sales", "Sales of guns facilitated through the gun show loophole" or something absurd like that for the simple reason that this term does not cover the ambit of what they seek to abrogate the same way "private sales of firearms" does. | |||
:On a personal level, I do think that this page will fare better if it were titled “private firearm transactions" as it can also include transactions like gifting a firearm that is not just "sales" which also, according to some exceptions, does not need a background check every time a firearm is gifted, and this article can have a separate section about that if necessary. Overall, the title 'gun show loophole' does not do justice to what the entire article is about. ] (]) 16:21, 23 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::About ]'s comment "impartial editors yet to comment here," I want to clarify that I am from India and have a completely Indian origin. I have never visited the States before, so I suppose I could probably be the most impartial editor here, haha! Everything that I have said here is based on what I find online, aka references, news and sources. I do not stand to personally benefit from any of this; I'm just here for the spirit of the encyclopedia. Cheers! ] (]) 16:33, 23 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::I meant to say uninvolved, as Springee pointed out. ] (]) 21:58, 23 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::See ]. "The first sentence should introduce the topic, and tell the nonspecialist reader what or who the subject is, and often when or where. It should be in plain English." | |||
::We explain those details regarding perceived "flaw in the terminology" in the body, the way MOS seems to instruct us to do. ] (]) 00:20, 24 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
It's a term designed to vilify rights related to private sales, gifts and inheritances. It's also misleading because the vast majority of what it refers to is unrelated to gun shows. Of course it's controversial, a sky is blue statement. Also the topic is so vague and with such variable uses that the target of the term is not a distinct topic. IMO for those multiple reasons, if there is to be a separate article with that name, it should be just about the ''term'' and is not the place to cover what the term seems to vilify. A good example is ] which is an article about the ''term'' and is not the place where Misplaced Pages covers the LGBT initiatives which the term seeks to vilify, and covering them in an article with that name would be a POV reinforcement of that attempted vilification. One way to do this would be by renaming and then covering the ''term'' in a section. Sincerely, <b style="color: #0000cc;">''North8000''</b> (]) 20:11, 23 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
There is an EXTENSIVE FAQ on the article title located on the article talk page and should be considered. If we are going to do a RM on the title, what '''evidence''' is there that PSE, or whatever is being considered, is more prevalent in sources than GSL? I have tried to point to Google books Ngram, but no one seemed to acknowledge that, much like the policies and guidelines, or the fact that this article achieved GA status. | |||
If the RM reveals no consensus, or consensus against changing the name, is the plan to then do an RfC on the lead sentence? That would seems like a lot of effort and use of the communities time to determine whether or not it is ''editorializing'' or a POV issue which I had hoped would be resolved here, by uninvolved editors. BTW, for sake of argument, I found some sources about GSL (not necessarily the term per ]) that do not use the terms "controversial" or "so-called". | |||
I would also note, interestingly enough, some articles use "so-called" in one part of their article but not in others. | |||
Cheers.] (]) 22:03, 23 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:IMO the issues are a lot deeper and need a lot more fundamental fix than just picking an adjective. Starting with the fact that it is a term and otherwise not a distinct topic. <b style="color: #0000cc;">''North8000''</b> (]) 01:47, 24 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::I'm willing to address this via RM for the title or RfC on the lead sentence, but I'm concerned with saying we need to do both. If the current title is determined to be appropriate, as it seemed to be the last (several) time(s), would an RfC on the lead sentence still be necessary? It's not my intention to quid pro quo, I'm simply trying to find a way to resolve this without it being a drain on the community. If I'm the only one with that concern, then so be it. ] (]) 03:55, 24 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::What other title is more prominent in your opinion? ] (]) 03:59, 24 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:I have reviewed some of these sources that you have presented here@], they are making the same point I made above. For example, , says {{tq|"He cited two pitfalls to avoid: adopting a limited, “gun show loophole” approach and creating an exemption for holders of unexpired concealed weapon permits. “These more limited approaches are unnecessary and would still allow prohibited persons to purchase firearms from private parties,” he said."}}. GSL is not the all-comprehensive term that it is incorrectly understood to be. This source that you mentioned says "Concerns about private-party gun sales and the importance of gun shows as a source of guns used in crimes have led to repeated calls for closing the “gun show loophole” — by which advocates usually mean requiring that private-party sales {{tq|''at gun shows''}} be routed through a licensed retailer who will do a background check and keep a record of the purchase." ] (]) 04:30, 24 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::"In fact, there is no gun-show loophole as such. Federal law is silent on the issue of gun shows and permits {{tq|private-party gun sales}} to occur anywhere. As a result, such a limited measure might well have no detectable effect on the rates of firearm-related violent crime. Gun shows account for a small percentage of all gun sales in the United States — between 4 and 9%, according to the best estimates available. Similarly, they account for just 3 to 8% of all private-party gun sales" excerpts from | |||
::"GSL" is distinct from private sales of firearms. The sooner we reach an agreement on this, the sooner we can start to help the article. ] (]) 04:36, 24 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::Feel free to cherry-pick and form all the ] conclusions you like. Frankly, it's a waste of time. ] (]) 04:36, 24 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::Any other less hostile comments are also welcome. ] (]) 04:56, 24 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::How about some substantive comments? That would be refreshing. ] (]) 04:58, 24 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::Do either of those sources use the terms "controversial" or "so-called"? No? Ok. ] (]) 04:54, 24 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::At this point, THOSE were not the changes I was talking about and I do not appreciate the tone you are using, DN. I feel unnecessarily scolded. If you want "substantive comments" please read every preceding reply of mine. Good day to you. ] (]) 05:02, 24 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::I apologize for hurting your feelings. Cheers. ] (]) 05:05, 24 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::They are criticizing incorrect behavior. And redefining their motive as "hurt your feelings" is also not right. <b style="color: #0000cc;">''North8000''</b> (]) 15:15, 24 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::You can interpret it however you like, but commenting on it is irrelevant and unnecessary since my apology was genuine and you are not a mind reader. So let's agree that we do not have permission to speak for one another. Deal? ] (]) 21:29, 24 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::::I was reading what you wrote, nothing about reading your mind. <b style="color: #0000cc;">''North8000''</b> (]) 16:31, 26 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::Trying to find a source that says that the term is controversial is like trying to find a source that says rain is wet. Sources don't repeat glaringly obvious stuff. <b style="color: #0000cc;">''North8000''</b> (]) 15:18, 24 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::I've been asking for reliable ''neutral'' sources since this dispute started 3 weeks ago. So far we have found one that doesn't even clarify if it refers to the term or the subject, let alone actually explains what the "controversy" is. By all means, share them. ] (]) 00:02, 25 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::Since giving WEIGHT to things that are not properly sourced tends to fall under the umbrella of ], what is it you are suggesting? ] (]) 00:11, 25 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
Unless NPOVN is able to mediate this problem more effectively, we should discuss whether an RM for title or an RfC on lead sentence is more prudent. Perhaps a poll? Cheers. ] (]) 05:34, 24 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
{{od}} | |||
:I think Fenharrow has really hit the nail on the head. They made very strong points. For a long time it appears the article correctly said GSL was (is) a political term and then went on to discuss both what they term generally was meant to cover and why the term was inaccurate in a literal sentence. If we are going to downplay the issue with the term I think a RM makes sense. There is plenty of evidence that the term is not accurate. ] (]) 10:37, 24 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::I have some concerns that there is not a distinct topic (other than cover it only as a term, which would call for deletion of the majority of the article.) But I think that renaming it is the best practical solution. It could cover the legal status of private transfers (sales, gifts, inheritances) in the USA. <b style="color: #0000cc;">''North8000''</b> (]) 15:15, 24 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
So the general confusion we had in ] has to do with dates and geographic areas (Balkans only or including other areas). Whether from 1820 to 1920, or 1878 to 1912, or 1912 to 1923. Mark Mazower only talks about displaced, but the 5 million displaced after 1821 is also in other sources. | |||
=== RM started === | |||
I'll fix the wording in affected articles in Misplaced Pages. ] (]) 15:07, 6 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
I have just created a RM on the article talk page to change the title of "Gun show loophole" to "Private sale of firearms in the United States". @] @] @] @] @] @] please feel free to comment over at ] ] (]) 15:44, 24 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
: |
:You should add the displaced figures by Mark Mazower in the article and and a '''displaced section''' in the infobox too with the other sources and Mark M. ] (]) 15:25, 6 December 2024 (UTC) | ||
::I can't do everything today, but I'll make some of the changes later. I already changed the wording in the article ] (]) 15:33, 6 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
::{{U|Firefangledfeathers}}, sorry to be a pest, I just want to make sure there isn't any concern as to the choice of editors which received notifications above, versus the ones that did not. Cheers. ] (]) 23:10, 27 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
== ] == | |||
== The Antioch Review article looks suspect == | |||
It is a dispute in about https://en.wikipedia.org/BRICS#cite_note-:2-173 | |||
Not an editor, just wanted to bring this to people's attention. ] article looks suspect, in terms of neutrality. It gives off "person who is affiliated with thing being a major contributor to the article for that thing" vibes. I'm mostly talking about the fifth paragraph of the "History" section, although I'm uncertain about the article as a whole too. Hope this is the right place to post about this kind of thing, I'd appreciate for someone to take a look at it. ] (]) 01:08, 12 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:Are you referring to this paragraph?... | |||
:*Free speech is taken seriously at The Antioch Review. The Winter 2016 issue published an article considered offensive to many transgender individuals and supporters, but was nevertheless defended against a wave of criticism on the grounds of free expression of ideas and opinions, even when they run counter to one's own.<ref>{{Cite web |last=Jaschik |first=Scott |title=Free Speech, 'The Antioch Review' and an Antitransgender Article |url=https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2016/05/06/article-critical-transgender-movement-sets-debate-about-antioch-review |access-date=2024-10-12 |website=Inside Higher Ed |language=en}}</ref> | |||
{{reftalk}} | |||
:If so, I can see how the first sentence may be ] in ], but might be attributed to the author, if they are considered significant or prominent as a ]. | |||
:Cheers. ] (]) 01:21, 12 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:I'm gonna take a poke at the article and see what I can clean up. ] (]) 01:26, 12 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::Okay, here's what I've found in relation to NPOV. | |||
::<br> | |||
::The first paragraph of the History section was added by now-inactive user ] using a reference from "review.antiochcollege.org". Since the website is unfortunately dead and I can't retrieve a copy of the page due to the ] recently being hacked, we can't yet confirm whether this was just a copypaste. However, it's definitely not got a neutral tone about it. If the part that states they "sought to establish a forum for the voice of liberalism in a world facing the forces of fascism and communism" were in quotation marks, so as to indicate to readers that this does not reflect Misplaced Pages's view on the subject but it is rather the subject's own self-assessment, then that's bare minimum. | |||
::<br> | |||
::Next is the paragraph mentioned above by DN. This would be more relevant to include if there was sourced evidence of "free speech (being) taken seriously at The Antioch Review" that showed this commitment to free speech demonstrated over the course of the Review's history. | |||
::<br> | |||
::And last thing I'll mention before I get to work on the article is that the whole History section reads like a newspaper article and is quite non-specific with its claims. "While its pages have been populated by innumerous academics" does not tell us anything about said academics, for starters. | |||
::<br> | |||
::So that's all I've got for now. I'll get started on making some changes and tagging the page with ] and/or ], along with the one on style (I forgot what it was called!). Unrelated side note, but screw those hackers. The Internet Archive is an invaluable resource given the constantly changing nature of the internet and access to material, and it being down is more than a minor annoyance. ] (]) 01:56, 12 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::Thanks for taking a look at the article, I appreciate it. | |||
:::Another unrelated sidenote, I find it absolutely lovely that you guys use the terms ] and ] to describe those things. This is a good website. ] (]) 03:16, 12 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
Nobody seem willing to verify my citation therefore I lost this edit war. | |||
== Mullenweg's philanthropy section == | |||
https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:BRICS ] (]) 17:14, 10 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
:Can you give more details and a link to the discussion at the talk page? Right now it's not clear what the dispute was about. Also, you might want to review ] and assume good faith. ]<sub>]</sub> 20:49, 10 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
Not sure what to do with {{slink|Matt Mullenweg|Philanthropy}}. I'm not familiar enough with the relevant policies to decide if we should just axe the content or merge it into the unrelated personal history or do something else about it. ] (]) 15:35, 13 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::Dear @] , yeah I can https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:BRICS#Much_more_efficient_than_SWIFT . | |||
:It does read like puffery. But you do need to raise this on the article's talk page. ] (]) 15:38, 13 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:: |
::I didn't get notified of your reply, please use the @] it would make it easier to keep up with the conversation. ] (]) 21:39, 12 December 2024 (UTC) | ||
( @] you are welcome to join ;) <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 21:20, 16 December 2024 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
== RfC on lede of ] == | |||
== Contradictory Claims on HTS Governance and Human Rights Violations == | |||
Here: ]. Is the lede too POV, or OK? (Involves the Middle East so hang on to your hat lol.) ] (]) 05:45, 14 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
The article on ] (HTS), a Syrian paramilitary organisation that has been designated a terrorist organisation by a variety of countries, contains contradictory information about the governance of HTS in occupied territories. | |||
== ] == | |||
The ] section claims HTS has generally not interfered in womens' lives, has been tolerant towards religious minorities, and has been lenient towards civilians. These statements are based primarily on a chapter written by Dareen Khalifa in the book ''The Rule is for None but Allah'', published by Oxford University Press. Khalifa’s work relies heavily on interviews with HTS leaders. For many claims about HTS' tolerance, the source she gives is "author interview, Jolani ", "author interview, HTS commander" or similar. | |||
I'm bringing this here because the whole thing is stating catholic beliefs in wikivoice. Starting with the lead: "of the seven prayers, reportedly (...)" on the origin of the prayers, is very much POV. The prayers were published by a nun starting in 1937, from what I can gather. | |||
TBH, I'm not even sure this meets notability standards, as the whole thing is based exclusively on primary or not-independent sources. | |||
Should WP be a resource for people to learn their prayers? ]•] 14:28, 14 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
However, as an anonymous user pointed out, the section ] (which for transparency I authored) contradicts this, citing multiple lengthy reports by the UN, EU, US, and human rights organisations, which document enforced dress codes, repression of women, executions for "crimes" such as blasphemy, forced disappearances of political opponents and activists, persecution of minorities, torture, among others. The governance section makes no mention of these reports, or that much of the current information in this sections relies on interviews with HTS leadership. | |||
== Trying to address NPOV on Trap-Neuter-Return and reached an impasse == | |||
The primary dispute appears to be that the users @] and @] consider Khalifa's chapter a reliable (or authoritative, given that her claims about HTS tolerance are stated as fact) source, because even though many of her claims are based on interviews with HTS leadership, the chapter is in a book published by Oxford University Press. The user @] is also of the opinion that the reports by the US government are "propaganda", although the user has not addressed the reports by other institutions that come to similar conclusions as the US reports. | |||
The Trap Neuter Return page has NPOV concerns going back at least 5 years. I proposed edits, starting with the lead paragraph, but the active editor on the page @] is not accepting any edits. I've withdrawn edit requests to the lead sentence and would like to proceed with edits to the rest of the paragraph that are not NPOV concerns; they are clarifications to increase accuracy. I'm here to ask for guidance on how to reach consensus. ] (]) 16:21, 15 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
I am the other party to this dispute, and am of the opinion that the variety of reports by multiple - in my view credible - international organisations and human rights groups (and yes, the US too) should at least bear enough significance to warrant a re-writing of the Governance section, making it clear that much of the information regarding HTS' tolerance is based on HTS' self-portrayal in interviews and that there exist multiple credible reports that document a rather draconian and repressive governance policy employed by HTS. For example the ] concludes that HTS has interfered "in every aspect of civilian life" and notes that women have been whipped or even executed for violating religious dress codes (). | |||
== Discussion notice == | |||
The discussion on the talk page can be found ]. Neither @], @] or I have engaged in edit warring, but the way this discussion is going appears to be an endless back-and-forth, so it would be nice to get outside opinions. | |||
Copied from ]: | |||
{{tqb | |||
|text= | |||
] (]) 00:14, 12 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
'''] has an ]''' | |||
== Have I successfully removed the promotional content from this article? == | |||
<div class="floatleft" style="margin-bottom:0">]</div>''']''' has an RfC for possible consensus. A discussion is taking place. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments on the ''']'''.<!-- Template:Rfc notice--> Thank you. (Note: from continuation of ongoing discussion at Village Pump (policy).) ] (]) 00:34, 18 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
}} ] (]) 02:05, 18 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
The owner of ] made ] and ] edits at his own article yesterday. I tried to remove the "fluff" and restore the ]. Has the ] been restored, or is it still too promotional? ] (]) 01:41, 12 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
:More specifically, this is a very serious formal proposal to merge Fringe theories/noticeboard into this one. ] (]) 02:28, 18 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:yes, looks better now ] (]) 21:20, 12 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
== ] and its associated deletion discussion == | |||
== Edits to “Game Science” == | |||
Talk page is a mess around which incident to include, what incident should be considered antisemitic or not, and which incident is a BLP violation or not. | |||
Discussion regarding ] has grown into an intense deadlock where the other editor insists that I have not read their arguments. As the first subsection deals with a POV edit and the disputed edits create a POV more favorable to Game Science, I would appreciate your comment at ]. ] (]) 19:25, 13 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
I initially suggested massive scope check, and possible deletion. I think someone took me up on the ]. I haven't kept up, but the talk page, deletion page, and the associated arguments could all use more eyes. ] (]) 22:18, 18 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:This isn't actually a neutrality problem. You've been arguing against things like attribution of quotes and secondary sources. Heck you tried to argue with me that attribution automatically casts doubt on the attributed statement. ] (]) 20:15, 13 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
== ] == | |||
::As I’ve said, the first subsection is about a neutrality issue. I am contesting that change because it violates NPOV, which explicitly mentions and forbids casting doubt through attribution. ] (]) 20:20, 13 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::Attribution is not automatically casting doubt - it's good practice dealing with quotes or opinions to attribute them. ] (]) 20:22, 13 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::Not according to NPOV for RSes that state factual information, as I’ve quoted the policy to show in the discussion on the article’s talk page. I encourage you (and anyone else) to reply there for the added context of the quote. ] (]) 20:39, 13 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::It's a newspaper. It doesn't hurt the article to says "according to SCMP" and your resistance to that is perplexing. ] (]) 20:41, 13 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::Look, I and a policy supported by community consensus agree that adding in-text attribution when we already have inline citations unnecessarily casts doubt. If you disagree with the policy, try and get consensus to change it. ] (]) 20:50, 13 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::I think your policy interpretation is weak. And, generally, a person who says, "I have consensus" doesn't. ] (]) 20:52, 13 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::::Specifically your policy citation is to ] and this is not a "the sky is blue" situation here but is, rather, a newspaper reporting on an acquisition where the acquiring stakeholder refused to comment. ] (]) 20:55, 13 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::I don't see how "the acquiring stakeholder refused to comment" makes the fact that an acquisition happened doubtable and require in-text attribution. (Also, I'm fairly sure you didn't mean to cite an essay on inline citation, which is about the {{fake ref}}, not "according to...". My reply here assumes you were contesting whether the claim {{tq|Hero Games acquired a 19% stake in Game Science through its wholly-owned subsidiary Tianjin Hero Financial Holding Technology in 2017, but sold the stake in 2022}} falls under {{tq|Uncontested and uncontroversial factual assertions made by reliable sources}}.){{tqb|generally, a person who says, "I have consensus" doesn't.}}You may as well tell that to everyone who cites a policy to remove text it explicitly forbids. Anyways, I'll be moving this to the article talk page soon. ] (]) 22:46, 13 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::@] You do not have permission to refactor my comments please restore this discussion to its prior state. ] (]) 23:09, 13 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::Ugh, if you say so. I'll transclude it there then. It's much better to centralize discussion in one place. ] (]) 23:24, 13 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::It is clear that South Morning Post reported on the relation between Hero Games and Game Science. It is also clear that Hero Games stated that they couldn't comment on the relation when asked directly about it. Using wikivoice is inappropiate, and an attribution is needed. Secondly, don't act like you have a consensus by proxy for your unilateral stance though a (misrepresentation of a) policy. --] (]) 14:49, 14 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::I am replying on the article's talk page to centralize discussion. ] (]) 17:50, 14 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::You brought the discussion to the noticeboard. This is borderline disruptive. ] (]) 17:56, 14 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::::It is very common to notify and invite noticeboards to comment <em>elsewhere</em>. I invited participants of these noticeboards to comment on ]. ] (]) 19:17, 14 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
== ] == | |||
* {{pagelinks|S. A. Ajayi}} | |||
A new user is repeatedly inserting a hagiography into this late politician's already non-neutral article. Unreadable lines like ''"Chief S.A. Ajayi was a highly skilled polyglot, fluent in multiple Nigerian languages, Chief S.A Ajayi's linguistic abilities and multi-cultural understanding played a significant role in his advocacy for majority and minority coexistence"'' are being added to an article that already contains such gems as ''"Chief Ajayi pursued this vision with equally passionate illustrious sons of Ijumu until the Local Government was created"''. Sources for these statements include a letter to a newspaper (the hagiographic paragraph is a poorly paraphrased version of this letter) and other non-neutral newspaper articles. There's an important article about an important person in Nigerian history buried in this morass, but it's buried very deep at the moment. ] (]) 12:47, 19 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
{{ping|C_at_Access}} | |||
== SEGM and conversion therapy == | |||
Circulating on relevant noticeboards... essentially if contentious oligarch label should be mentioned in intro ] (]) 20:41, 16 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
== NextEra Energy == | |||
There is currently an ongoing dispute at ] concerning the source linking SEGM and promotion of conversion therapy. The quote from the relevant source is as follows: | |||
{{tqbm|Dr. Malone and fellow SEGM member Dr. Colin Wright have asserted, “Counseling can help gender dysphoric adolescents resolve any trauma or thought processes that have caused them to desire an opposite sexed body.” In my opinion, these statements are transphobic and reductive and favor a model of care in which children are encouraged to live as their sex assigned at birth. }} | |||
Hi editors, I'm Matt and I work for NextEra Energy. I currently have two edit requests (first one linked ] that I think are directly applicable to this noticeboard. Content added some time ago by a now-banned user (]), which was largely copied from the Florida Power & Light article, creates some neutrality issues, particularly as relates to ]. The above linked request is to move content in a section titled "Environmental issues" about a power plant that was never built – and therefore can't be an issue – to the History section, in line with ]. | |||
It is asserted that the entire source, post {{tq|In my opinion}}, should be excluded as ], and that it is ] to consider the quote from Malone and Wright as verifying {{tq|favor a model of care in which children are encouraged to live as their sex assigned at birth}} as a factual statement. Editors are invited to join the discussion on the article talk page. I have also posted this at ] since both noticeboards seem relevant. ] (] • ]) 00:22, 20 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
The second request is a bit meatier and involves removing some content that is pulled directly from a source without attribution and/or uses poor sourcing for negative information that doesn't meet the requirements of ], and moving what remains to the History section, again to improve ]<nowiki> in line with NOCRIT. I would appreciate any feedback or help you can offer. Because of my COI I have avoided making these changes myself and I'd like to have this page be reflective of our overall desire to have the page be neutral and factual. ~~~~</nowiki> ] (]) 23:07, 17 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
:I will note here as well that the quote as presented in this source removes the opening proviso "But in most cases", which changes the tone somewhat. | |||
:In any case, as an editor I genuinely appreciate these requests being made in a responsible and transparent manner. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff"> ‥ </span>]</span> 05:04, 18 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
:Also, I think you are not accurately describing my objection to the subsequent MEDORG statements. It is not an arbitrary claim that "everything after the opinion is opinion". The issue is that what ''relates'' the subsequent statements to the quote is a statement of opinion. The form is (paraphrasing): | |||
== Unwarranted promotional and COI tags on film articles == | |||
:* Here's a quote | |||
:* ''In my opinion'' it is conversion therapy | |||
:* Here's information about conversion therapy | |||
Hi, I need help with some tags that have been added to two articles please: | |||
:The MEDORG information is all totally factual - but the basis for presenting the two alongside each other as if they are related is opinion. That added, I welcome some outside input. | |||
* ] | |||
* Draft:The Misguided | |||
I'm getting pretty tired of the constant unfounded allegations. First it was paid editing (which got removed after review), then COI tags without evidence, and now suddenly it's "promotional content" - but nobody's actually pointed out what's promotional or what constitutes a conflict of interest. Here's the situation: | |||
:] (]) 07:44, 20 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
1. Everything in these articles comes from proper independent sources like The Hollywood Reporter, LA Times, and Film Threat | |||
Beside the above mentioned discussion I would like to draw the attention to the unacceptable condition of the entire article about SEGM. Multiple users have already raised at the article's talk the issue of the total lack of balance and neutrality in the article, when only negative and critical opinions are mentioned, many of which come from fringe or biased sources, advocacy groups, etc. It would be good to have more outside involvement to make the article more compliant with WP:NPOV and other Misplaced Pages guidelines.--] (]) 12:33, 20 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
2. Yes, some reviews are positive, but that's what the reliable sources reported | |||
3. My only contact with the filmmaker was to check facts like dates and get source materials | |||
4. I have no other connection to these films or anyone involved | |||
5. The latest tags were just slapped on without any discussion, continuing this pattern of baseless accusations | |||
The articles stick to Misplaced Pages's neutral point of view rules. If something sounds promotional, tell me what it is and I'll fix it. I'm happy to add any negative reviews too if someone can find them in reliable sources. | |||
== ] == | |||
You can see the whole frustrating history here: | |||
Can someone take a look at this article including the talk page? I feel the article has had issues with POV editing that have resulted in the article not accurately reflecting the sources and BLP violations. I believe uninterested editors who have not heard of the incident will be best here. ] (]) 09:18, 20 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
* ] | |||
* ] | |||
* ] | |||
Can we get a fair review based on what's actually in the articles, not just assumptions and accusations? I am requesting that these unwarranted promotional content and COI tags be removed from the articles. Much appreciated! | |||
== Twitch == | |||
] (]) 22:39, 19 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
seems to describe what happens as a "unacceptable miss" in wikivoice. | |||
:Update: I've just discovered that the entire Reception section, which contained properly sourced reviews from Rotten Tomatoes and multiple independent critics, has been removed without discussion. This further demonstrates the issue with these arbitrary content removals. The deleted section was entirely based on reliable sources and followed Misplaced Pages guidelines. I have preserved the content and sources and request review of both the tags and this content removal. ] (]) 23:01, 19 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
{{ping|LuffyDe}} {{ping|Masem}} ] (]) 16:38, 21 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
: |
::This discussion is ] here. You should know, you posted in the section. ] (]) 23:07, 19 December 2024 (UTC) | ||
:::{{u|MrOllie}}, yes, I'm aware of that discussion. The wholesale removal of a properly sourced Reception section warrants broader review. This isn't just about a tag anymore - it's about the removal of verified content from reliable sources without justification. ] (]) 23:11, 19 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
::I recognize now it was an issue for one year. However, when the bulk of published complaints on the matter are from social media users and not experts or journalists, it is very much Undue to being that weight to the antisemitic claims. We cannot assume that Twitch purposely kept the block on longer than needed (eg using the word "embargo" is OR and POV) I have kept the key parts of the material and briefly mention the antisemitic claim as the reason Twitch acted now.<span id="Masem:1729533272134:WikipediaFTTCLNNeutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard" class="FTTCmt"> — ] (]) 17:54, 21 October 2024 (UTC)</span> | |||
::::It wasn't "removed without discussion" as you just stated, then, was it? You've had an account since 2017, and in that time 100% of your editing has been about the films of Shannon Alexander, and often quite promotional in nature. If you don't want people to think you have a COI, I suggest you tone down the rhetoric, and strongly consider finding a way to improve the encyclopedia that is entirely unrelated to Alexander. ] (]) 23:15, 19 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::{{u|MrOllie}}, | |||
:::::1. The Reception section was actually just removed without proper discussion. A few quick comments declaring content "promotional" without specific examples doesn't constitute real consensus. | |||
:::::2. Your statement about my editing history is wrong. My account was created to edit Katherine Langford's article, completely unrelated to Shannon Alexander. My recent focus on documenting these films stems from noticing a gap in coverage of internationally-recognized work - I've said countless times. | |||
:::::3. There's nothing "promotional" about including properly sourced reviews from reliable publications. If positive reviews exist in reliable sources, documenting them isn't promotion - it's proper encyclopedic coverage. | |||
:::::The focus should be on specific content concerns, not repeated unfounded attacks and assumptions about editor's motivations. ] (]) 23:21, 19 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::Katherine Langford's article, where you wanted to correct information about a project she'd recently been in. Who made that film, I wonder? . Dishonesty is not going to help - every time you post something like this these 'attacks and assumptions' you mention appear to become better supported. ] (]) 23:27, 19 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::This is just blatant forum shopping of a grievance previously discussed at the Helpdesk and now at COIN . | |||
:::::::Also, why does the user continue to lie that their edits to ] were {{tq|completely unrelated to Shannon Alexander}}? | |||
:::::::Here is one of the edits : {{tq|Langford will appear in her first feature film, ''The Misguided'', an independent comedic drama by Shannon Alexander}}. In actual fact, all of the user's edits to that article relate to Langford being in a film by Shannon Alexander. | |||
:::::::Pants on fire, my friend, pants on fire... ] (]) 23:39, 19 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::::And Stan... | |||
::::::::The reason the tags are in place and the reasons that the removals of material have occurred is that pretty much everyone who has commented in the various threads you've started ''disagrees'' fundamentally with what appears to be your transparent promotional agenda. | |||
::::::::For reference, normal editors do not (a) create promotional articles, (b) open multiple threads trying to hurry the articles through AfC, (c) talk about when the articles will start to appear on Google searches, and (d) open multiple threads trying to strongarm other users into removing COI/PAID tags. | |||
::::::::That pattern of behaviour is how conflict of interest users operate, usually ones who have been paid to produce articles to order. ] (]) 23:59, 19 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::{{u|MrOllie}}, your implication about my editing history misses the point. Like many editors, I followed connected topics that revealed gaps in coverage. Following a subject area and documenting it with reliable sources isn't wrong - it's how Misplaced Pages grows. | |||
:::::::::More concerning is the removal of an entire Reception section containing properly sourced reviews from established publications. The content was based on reliable sources including Rotten Tomatoes and Film Threat. If specific statements appeared promotional, they should have been identified and discussed, not wholesale removed. | |||
:::::::::This pattern of removing sourced content while making assumptions about contributors' motivations vioaltes Misplaced Pages's principles. ] (]) 04:48, 20 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::It was discussed in the relevant place and the consensus was for removal. Another user has since added back the Rotten Tomatoes part of the Reception section, by which we can reasonably assume that they agree with the rest of the removal. | |||
::::::::::As I have stated to you before, the ] is on the editor wishing to include material, not on those wishing to remove it. There is clearly no consensus in favour of inclusion, so arguing for inclusion in 3 completely separate threads (this thread, this one and this one ) is pointless. | |||
::::::::::In any event, it is obviously contrary to Misplaced Pages policy for an article about anything to be composed almost entirely of reviews, whether they are good or bad, so your line of argument is a very bad one in any case. Removal was thus entirely non-controversial. ] (]) 05:43, 20 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::{{u|Axad12}}, your interpretation of both consensus and policy continues to be problematic: | |||
:::::::::::1. The "consensus" you reference was a single editor agreeing with you, while ignoring multiple objections. The fact that another editor has since restored part of the Reception section actually demonstrates that there isn't consensus for wholesale removal. | |||
:::::::::::2. Your interpretation of WP:ONUS is incorrect in this context. The content was already established with proper reliable sources. The burden shifts to those seeking removal to demonstrate why properly sourced content should be deleted. | |||
:::::::::::3. Your claim "it is obviously contrary to Misplaced Pages policy for an article about anything to be composed almost entirely of reviews" is simply false. Film articles regularly contain substantial reception sections when supported by reliable sources - see ] and ]. The removed content was based entirely on independent, reliable sources providing critical analysis. | |||
:::::::::::4. Regarding multiple discussion venues - each serves a distinct purpose and was used appropriately. Characterizing proper use of Misplaced Pages's established channels as "pointless" misrepresents how Misplaced Pages works. | |||
:::::::::::The core issue remains: properly sourced content was removed without valid policy-based justification or genuine consensus. ] (]) 16:22, 20 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::::You are completely wrong. ] (]) 16:27, 20 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::::The core content issues remain: | |||
:::::::::::::The removed material was based on reliable sources and followed standard article formatting. No concrete policy violations were identified. | |||
:::::::::::::Removals occurred without consensus, and often without any substantive talk page discussion. | |||
:::::::::::::Vague claims of "promotional" tone have been asserted without pointing to specific passages or policies. | |||
:::::::::::::AI detection results are being misused to discredit good faith, policy-compliant contributions. | |||
:::::::::::::If there are proper neutrality or sourcing concerns with the removed content, please identify the exact issues so they can be addressed collaboratively. But so far, the removals appear to be based more on unfounded personal suspicions than objective policy issues. | |||
:::::::::::::Wiki articles rightly include reception sections with mainstream press reviews. That's not inherently 'promotional' it's documenting verifiable real-world coverage. Removing properly cited review content is detrimental to readers and sets a terrible precedent. | |||
:::::::::::::I remain committed to working with anyone who has constructive, policy-based feedback on improving these articles further. But edit-warring removals and personal attacks need to stop in favor of substantive, collaborative discussion. We deserves better. | |||
:::::::::::::Let's get back to focusing on content and policies, not personal battles. I'm happy to discuss any neutrality problems if you identify concrete examples. But so far I've yet to see a compelling rationale for these removals of policy-compliant material. ] (]) 16:39, 20 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::::::The only important issue here is that, despite you starting multiple different threads in various different arenas, ''no one else agrees with you''. | |||
::::::::::::::Therefore the tags remain and the removals remain. | |||
::::::::::::::You just have to accept that you are in the minority and move on. Continuing to argue is simply disruptive. ] (]) 16:46, 20 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::::::{{u|Axad12}}, your characterization of "no one else agrees" is both incorrect and misses the point. Several editors, including DMacks, have confirmed proper licensing and sourcing, and @Aafi has confirmed the images are restored after permissions verification. The issue isn't about counting votes - it's about following policy. | |||
:::::::::::::::The systematic removal of: | |||
:::::::::::::::1. Properly licensed images (with verified VRT permissions) | |||
:::::::::::::::2. Well-sourced content from reliable publications | |||
:::::::::::::::3. Standard film article sections matching Misplaced Pages's format | |||
:::::::::::::::...cannot be justified by simply claiming "you're in the minority." Misplaced Pages is not a vote-counting exercise - it's about following established policies for content inclusion. The continued removal of policy-compliant content while dismissing legitimate concerns is what's being noted and actually disruptive here. ] (]) 18:26, 20 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::::::::I have no interest in the image issue. I am talking about the tags and the removal of the Reception section. | |||
::::::::::::::::The consensus is again you ''and'' you are consistently arguing contrary to policy, so the distinction you draw above is rather pointless. You have also been demonstrated to be a liar. ] (]) 18:33, 20 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::::::::{{u|Axad12}}, | |||
:::::::::::::::::I strongly object to your repeated accusations of dishonesty. If you believe I have misrepresented anything, I ask that you provide clear evidence rather than resorting to personal attacks. Misplaced Pages is built on good faith and such language is both unproductive and contrary this platform. | |||
:::::::::::::::::Regarding the tags and the Reception section, I have consistently argued my case based on policy, including WP:NPOV and WP:V. I have sought to include well-sourced and neutrally presented content. | |||
:::::::::::::::::Consensus is not determined by the number of voices in a discussion but by the strength of the arguments grounded in Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines. I remain focused to working within those frameworks. ] (]) 19:04, 20 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::::::::::I provided evidence of your dishonesty upthread here . The evidence is so clear that I will happily once again call you a liar. ] (]) 19:35, 20 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::::::::::Also, you consistently seem to believe that consensus is whatever you believe is correct, disregarding the opinions of every other user you encounter. ] (]) 19:43, 20 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::::::::::::1. Regarding transparency and process: | |||
:::::::::::::::::::: - Paid editing tags were initially added but subsequently removed through proper channels after review | |||
:::::::::::::::::::: - Wiki images were challenged but verified and reinstated through official processes | |||
:::::::::::::::::::: - All content is based on reliable, independent sources | |||
:::::::::::::::::::: - I served as an authorized representative specifically for image licensing/copyright verification, which was done transparently through proper Misplaced Pages channels | |||
::::::::::::::::::::2. Regarding consensus, let's look at the actual outcomes: | |||
:::::::::::::::::::: - Multiple administrators have reviewed and approved image reinstatements | |||
:::::::::::::::::::: - Paid editing tags were removed after proper review | |||
:::::::::::::::::::: - Content has been verified through reliable sources | |||
:::::::::::::::::::: - I've made requested changes when specific issues were identified | |||
::::::::::::::::::::3. This pattern shows I'm following Misplaced Pages's processes correctly. While I'm eager to expand my contributions to other topics and articles, I'm consistently forced to defend properly sourced and verified content instead of moving forward with new contributions. | |||
::::::::::::::::::::I’ve repeatedly suggested we focus on addressing specific content concerns through collaboration, but this has been met with nothing but resistance, preventing any meaningful progress. ] (]) 20:36, 20 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::::::::::::UPDATE: Stan1900 has now been indef blocked following a thread at ANI . ] (]) 23:29, 21 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
== RFC on Taylor Lorenz controversial statement regarding healthcare ceo shooting == | |||
Posting to relevant noticeboards: ] ] (]) 20:27, 21 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
== ] & ] == | |||
== Bizarre weight on disordered eating in ] == | |||
] is a BLP that has been edited by people with strong opinions and some vandals. ] (]) 17:59, 22 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
] is already a very specific article that might be worth merging into something more general, but ] so I guess there is no reason to ''not'' have an article on grazing. Still: | |||
Update: ] is a related article. ] (]) 09:10, 23 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
* Almost all the sources cite Conceição's work on disordered eating, and grazing's role in it. | |||
== ] == | |||
* The article does not really describe grazing except for it being a risk factor in disordered eating, according to this one person. | |||
* The article ''does'' contain information like the languages that Conceição's grazing questionnaire has been translated into. | |||
I think if you exclude undue weight and Conceição-promotion then there are about 2 sentences worth of notable info which can be merged into another article. ] 21:47, 22 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
move discussion after consensus to merge ] and ]. posting this on here. ] (]) 03:04, 24 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
== ] and connected pages == | |||
== Aaj Tak == | |||
In the light of the recent fall of the Assad regime in Syria, I have been trying to update a bit the articles about the ]. There, I noticed that a lot of importance was given to Mrs Randa Kassis, which made me suspect that this could be a case of ]. Please note that presented her as the "leader" of the Syrian opposition, as a "leading figure of the Syrian opposition" and a "Leading secular female figure", all in the biographical infobox. A lot of content in the Randa Kassis page seems to rely on primary sources. After a simple research I could find that Mrs Kassis is controversial among the opposition due to her alleged ties to Russia. , , . Other people within the opposition have presented her and her groups as Russian-backed operatives. This may or may not be true, but it has to be mentioned in the article. | |||
*{{articlelinks|Aaj Tak}} | |||
This article about an Indian news outlet is strongly negative in tone and accuses the publication of promotion of "disinformation", a serious accusation which I am not sure is backed up by the sourcing, though I admit that I am not that familiar with Indian news media. I would appreciate input from someone familiar with Indian media. Thanks. ] (]) 15:24, 24 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
Also, several pages have been created about the groups created or chaired by Mrs Kassis, namely the ], the ] and the ] (the latter of which should be rewritten). | |||
:Here's some Indian newsmedia: ] (]) 19:27, 24 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::This is indeed how I found the article. The article does seem to have a bit of a pro-BJP tone, like a lot of Indian news media (India's press freedom is relatively low), so I took what it said with a grain of salt. ] (]) 20:57, 24 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::@] Newslaundry, The Wire, The Hindu, The Indian Express, The Caravan and there are many other independent outlets. But If you want something specific then do tell me maybe I can help. | |||
:::# https://www.newslaundry.com/2024/02/29/nbdsa-cracks-whip-asks-aaj-tak-to-remove-fictional-video-targeting-rahul-congress | |||
:::# https://www.newslaundry.com/2023/04/10/psychological-repercussions-court-restrains-aaj-tak-reportage-on-shraddha-murder-case | |||
:::# https://www.newslaundry.com/topic/aaj-tak | |||
:::# https://www.newslaundry.com/2018/01/02/fake-news-2017-aaj-tak-toi-zee-india-today-republic | |||
:::Newslaundry is an Indian media watchdog of sorts they pay really close attention to what goes on these News Channel. You can also just google Aaj Tak disinformation to see what pops out. | |||
:::Take a look at this also https://www.khuranaandkhurana.com/2022/07/08/aaj-tak-vs-newslaundry-restriction-or-criticism/ ] (]) 13:04, 26 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::If you look for Godi media aka Modi aligned media then you're going to find it. Of the top of my head I can give you the name of at least 10 Independent Indian media outlets. Some of them are mentioned in WP:RS and some aren't. ] (]) 12:50, 26 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::I'm not denying that Aaj Tak has reported misinformation, I'm just not sure how much weight should be put on it. For example The New York Times infamously put out ] which turned out to a a hoax. Should we then say that The New York Times "has promoted disinformation".? ] (]) 19:02, 26 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::Actually, nevermind. Reading the newslaundry article where they uncritically promogulated the claim that a fatwa allowed Saudi Arabian men to eat their wives is such an egregious error that I have to consider the current article completely justified. ] (]) 00:57, 27 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
While the Astana Platform is notable enough to warrant a page, I have my doubts about the first two, so I proposed to first merge the Movement of the Pluralistic Society page into the Randa Kassis article. | |||
== Misplaced Pages and antisemitism == | |||
As a result, an IP accused me ] of being "obsessed by Randa Kassis", and commented that what I did was "revolting" and amounted to "an harassment or sectarian political activism aimed at erasing or muzzling anyone who does not have his opinions". There were also ] of malicious libel, presumably also against me. | |||
*{{articlelinks|Misplaced Pages and antisemitism}} was just created. I'm really unconvinced that Misplaced Pages is able to write neutral critical articles about itself generally, but this article in particular just seems like a bad idea. I think it would be better covered as a section of ]. | |||
] (]) 03:03, 26 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
Several references mentioning Kassis' suspected role as a pro-Russian operative were removed. The merger request was also unilaterally removed (I just put it back). Please note (I guess that "the admin" is supposed to be me, even though I am no admin). , and also appear to be about me. | |||
:Seems highly likely to act as a ] in practice, even if not intended as one. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff"> ‥ </span>]</span> 03:05, 26 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::Yeah, the sourcing also seems thin. Obviously, I suppose you could include the recent right-wing media coverage that Misplaced Pages is antisemitic because of its coverage of the Israel Palestine conflict, but that would have clear POV issues. ] (]) 03:10, 26 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::Made a merge request at ] ] (]) 03:23, 26 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
Apart from the personal attacks against me, I think that the pages about Randa Kassis and her initiatives need to be monitored and rewritten in order to ensure their neutrality and avoid ] as well as ] and ]. | |||
== Discussion at Asian News International == | |||
I have also as it seems normal to mention the controversies within the opposition. | |||
] may be of interest to members of this noticeboard. ] (]) 16:57, 28 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:The whole legal case aside, there are several issues of contention: | |||
*1. The article is mostly based on 2 investigative articles by '']'' and '']'' (both as I understand respected Indian magazines), and it there is disagreement as to whether their allegations that ANI has served as a mouthpiece/propaganda vehicle for the Indian government (which is pretty much sourced only to these two magazine articles) should be attributed to them or not in the lead section. | |||
*2. There is dispute over whether the fact that ANI has had several articles from factcheckers showing that they have at times reported false claims be included in the lead section as supporting the claim that they have "consistently reported misinformation" | |||
*3. whether or not allegations of poor treatment of employees made in the ''The Caravan'' and ''The Ken'' are due for inclusion in the lead. ] (]) 17:23, 28 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
*:As I show in the t/p (and Hemiauchenia probably agrees), there are other highly reliable sources that bring the same allegations against ANI. ] (]) 20:40, 28 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
*::Yeah, the additional sourcing has assuaged a lot of my concerns. If anyone wants to request that the page be unprotected that's fine with me ] (]) 13:44, 29 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
However, I will now abstain from editing the page about Randa Kassis as long as it has not been reviewed by third parties. Thank you. ] (]) 08:47, 23 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
== 'Accusations of being a cult' section at Landmark Worldwide == | |||
:I’m from Egypt, and Randa Kassis is well known to many of us for her courage. Since 2007, she has spoken openly about social, political, and religious taboos and has appeared on numerous Arab media outlets. She was one of the first to champion secularism. | |||
There has bee recent edit warring to restore this version of the Cult Accusations section of the ] article, from this recently amended version. Which one more accurately reflects the cited sources, and more fully complies with the NPOV policy? ] (]) 11:45, 1 November 2024 (UTC) | |||
:You can observe that the secular coalition she created and presided over, alongside other opponents in 2011, preceded the formation of the Syrian National Council (SNC). After her expulsion from both the SNC and the secular coalition due to her warnings about Islamists, she ceased presiding over the secular coalition, and its fate remains unknown. | |||
:She was the only member of the opposition to adopt a pragmatic approach, going on to establish the Astana Platform in 2015 and the Constitutional Committee in 2017. Both initiatives were later recognised by the UN, Russia, Turkey, and Iran. ] (]) 11:57, 23 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
::I don't mind mentioning this, as long as it is duly sourced and does not make the page look like a promotional piece. What we must also mention, however, is that Randa Kassis' ties to Russia have been controversial and widely reported by the media. ] (]) 12:54, 23 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::I have added a NPOV tag to the Randa Kassis page as it still looks heavily promotional. ] (]) 19:35, 23 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
== Hello, regarding the edits on Carolina Amesty == | |||
:The strikes me as more neutral. The amended version relies on cherrypicked quotes to present a simplified view. The current version has more detail and context, and seems to present a clearer picture of both the allegations of cult status as well as how they were resolved. ] (]) 12:55, 1 November 2024 (UTC) | |||
I disagree with the edits made to the ] article. I have noticed that a user is adding information with a negative bias against Carolina Amesty instead of maintaining an objective and neutral approach. For my part, I added and removed information based on the official report. However, the Orlando Sentinel, a source that has maintained a critical stance towards Amesty and published a series of negative articles, has been used as a reference. | |||
:DaveApter <small>(thanks for pinging me)</small> forgot to mention that they've spent over 19 years on Misplaced Pages trying to remove all negative information about Landmark and related topics. The restored version is clearly better and more compliant with the NPOV policy, the {{tq|recently amended}} version removed much of the relevant information. It is not NPOV to exclude everyone except those who ultimately concluded that its not a cult. ] (]) 14:31, 1 November 2024 (UTC) | |||
To avoid conflicts, I will not undo any further edits, as I believe this is the appropriate space to resolve disputes between users. I prefer to wait for an impartial third party to review and determine the best version of the article. It is important to be cautious with sensationalist sources. If the information were accurate, it would be appropriate to include it, but this is not the case. I recommend reading the official report to ensure a more objective approach. ] (]) 15:32, 23 December 2024 (UTC) |
Latest revision as of 19:35, 23 December 2024
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Misplaced Pages's centralized discussion, request, and help venues. For a listing of ongoing discussions and current requests, see the dashboard. For a related set of forums which do not function as noticeboards see formal review processes. | |
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Eugene Lipov
(Note: I received significant assistance in writing the material below from a M.D, who chooses to remain anonymous rather than publicly attacking another doctor. Any errors in the following are mine.)
Our Eugene Lipov article uncritically presents stellate ganglion block therapy as if it was a well established medical treatment for post-traumatic stress disorder. It appears to be an experimental treatment with very little support from the medical community, yet Dr. Lipov is selling these treatments for PTSD ( https://stellacenter.com/treatments/sgb-dual-sympathetic-reset ) and Long COVID ( https://stellacenter.com/treatments/long-covid ) at 22 locations in the US.
The American Psychological Association strongly recommends four interventions for treating post traumatic stress disorder, and conditionally recommends another four. See Stellate ganglion block therapy not on the list.
The list of publications cited by Dr. Lipov to support the use of Stellate Ganglion blocks for the treatment of PTSD ( https://dreugenelipov.com/publications-2024/ ) is rather unimpressive. Dr. Lipov has been using this technique since 2008 and has given thousands of injections but there are no references to any long term outcomes data for his own patient population on his list of citations. There are ZERO references which specifically review patients treated with the "Dual Sympathetic Reset" technique.
Despite the claim that, "Stella aims to heal the injury, instead of just managing the symptoms", one of the papers listed as a citation on the Stella Center web page concludes that "stellate ganglion blocks are NOT a "cure" for PTSD... but have the potential to significantly reduce symptoms as part of the treatment plan for combat related PTSD".
Although one of the cofounders of the Stella center is a PhD psychologist and the website has the tagline, "Highly effective evidence based mental health care", there are no studies from the psychiatric literature referenced on the website.
Insurance companies won’t pay for Stellate ganglion block injections because published studies documenting their effectiveness are lacking, and because long term effects are completely unknown. A well controlled randomized and double blind study published in 2016 concluded that:
"Although previous case series have suggested that Stellate Ganglion Block offers an effective intervention for PTSD, this study did not demonstrate any appreciable difference between Stellate ganglion blocks and sham treatment on psychological or pain outcomes." .
Approximately 125,000 veterans are currently diagnosed with PTSD, and both the Veterans Administration and the department of defense are highly motivated to find and implement reliable treatments for the devastating condition. However, the official 2024 VA position statement on Stellate ganglion blocks was:
"Stellate ganglion blocks may have short term benefits for some individuals with PTSD, but it is not an established treatment at this time because the evidence is not conclusive. Stellate ganglion blocks have not been fully researched in Veterans with PTSD and the long term effects of stellate ganglion blocks are currently unknown"... "Currently, individuals with PTSD should be strongly encouraged to try established, and recommended treatments such as trauma-focused psychotherapy and medications. For Veterans that don't benefit from these traditional treatments, alternative interventions such as SGB might be considered". Source:
In my opinion, the Eugene Lipov article should present SGB as an unproven experimental procedure, and we should consider creating a Stellate Ganglion Block Therapy stub article with Dual Sympathetic Reset redirecting to it. --Guy Macon Alternate Account (talk) 19:10, 27 November 2024 (UTC)
- Are there any meta-analyses of experimental data for this one? Simonm223 (talk) 19:16, 27 November 2024 (UTC)
- I haven't been able to find one. Certainly not for Long COVID; nobody but Eugene Lipov seems to believe that sticking a needle in your Stellate ganglion is a reasonable way of treating Long COVID. For PTSD, the best that I could find was https://www.hsrd.research.va.gov/publications/esp/ganglionblock.pdf which concluded
- "SGB for PTSD is currently supported only by evidence from uncontrolled, unblinded case series which was neither confirmed nor refuted by a single RCT with imprecise findings, moderate methodological limitations, and which did not directly focus on clinically relevant outcomes. In currently used evidence grading systems,62 such evidence is considered “insufficient” for estimating an effect."
- but that was published in 2017. It could be that the answer has changed in the last seven years. --Guy Macon Alternate Account (talk) 03:33, 28 November 2024 (UTC)
- (...Sound of Crickets...) --Guy Macon Alternate Account (talk) 01:12, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
- I've taken a crack at rolling back the WP:MEDRS / WP:PEACOCK violations in this edit. Generalrelative (talk) 03:20, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
- (...Sound of Crickets...) --Guy Macon Alternate Account (talk) 01:12, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
Journal of Indo-European Studies
In order to avoid an edit war I am starting a topic here for this. The article for the Journal for Indo-European studies has throughout the years been given undue weight consistently to make it look like its a journal of poor standing when its not. The content places far too much focus on Roger Pearson, its founding publisher,and not enough on the journal's actual content in order to make it look 'racist' when it is not since it is clearly a linguistic journal. The article currently reads more like a mini bio on Pearson rather than anything to do with the actual content of the journal itself. More over, edits go unchecked on that article for over a month that remove info that makes the journal look reputable yet edits that take out all the mostly irrelevant bio info on Pearson and alleged negative aspects of the journal get scrutinized quickly and reverted. There is clear POV pushing and an anti-NPOV campaign going on here. Other editors have flagged it as being largely unbalanced and given undue weight. I am asking here for help in order to better remedy the situation as right now there is a stalemate and the way the article looks and reads right now is a mess. Geog1 (talk) 21:54, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
- Can you list plainly the sources you have that you feel paint a balanced picture of the journal? Remsense ‥ 论 22:27, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
- The only source that has anything remotely balanced to say about the journal in that article is this:
- Tucker, William H. (2002). Jazayery (ed.). The Funding of Scientific Racism: Wickliffe Draper and the Pioneer Fund.
- Nearly everything else entered in that article is meant to make the journal basically look like neo-nazis literature which it is not. It is simply a linguistic journal that focuses on linguistic matters concerning the Indo-European language family. Hardly any of the content of the journal itself is presented or discussed in the article. Surely that is problematic in and of itself. The journal isn't about Roger Pearson yet the way the article is written would have you believe its all about Pearson and that the journal is racist which it can't possibly be since its a linguistic journal. Geog1 (talk) 22:52, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
- No, I'm asking you about what you have. If you could collate the bibliography from scratch, what would it cite? Remsense ‥ 论 22:54, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
- The only other texts I can think of that would maybe counter balance things are actual articles from the journal itself which shows its not racist:
- https://www.jies.org/DOCS/jies_index/mainindex.html
- I think the problem though is the content in the wiki article itself does not focus on what the journal actually has in it. Its all literature being used to paint it as racist. Geog1 (talk) 00:11, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
- I mean, this is pretty quickly revealing itself as the unavoidable core issue though, right? We don't write encyclopedia articles based predominantly on primary sources—and in this case, what the journal itself contains is a primary source for claims about the journal itself—but on secondary sources, and so we're going to be first and foremost balancing what independent, published, reliable sources have to say about it. This is a pretty basic restatement of our core policy on neutral point of view and our guideline on reliable sources. Remsense ‥ 论 00:35, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
- Right, I understand the issue here between primary and secondary sources. But I really don't think the secondary sources are necessarily reliable, Arvidson for instance has a political ideology that lends an inherent biased against what the journal is about. I suspect the same applies for probably other sources there as well. But it all seems at the end of the day unbalanced and against NPOV. Geog1 (talk) 00:49, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
- I'm sorry but we don't exclude a work from an academic just because they're Marxist. Simonm223 (talk) 16:23, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
- The context in which Arvidson's ideas presented here within the article (too many one sided views) coupled with how the ideology creates a biasing effect against the topic per the author's book is problematic. There are quite a few claims in the Arvidson book that shows he really just doesn't care for the study of Indo-European linguistics and mythology per his political stance which is bias. Question: are opinions derived from books written by authors with a strong right leaning political ideology allowed here on wikipedia and considered 'reliable sources'. Geog1 (talk) 16:46, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
- Generally yes, unless the strong right-leaning political ideology gets into WP:FRINGE beliefs such as pro-eugenicism or other racist / supremacist opinions and assuming they're operating within an area of specialty and would not, otherwise, be considered unreliable regardless of their personal politics.
- I'll be honest, when dealing with academic sources, I don't generally look up the ideological position of the author unless it's somehow actually relevant. And I don't believe it's at all relevant here. Simonm223 (talk) 18:20, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
- I think that is rather naive and not very reasonable that an author's background or ideology wouldn't be relevant and that due diligence shouldn't be given to an author's background when choosing sources that would write fairly or reasonably on a subject. I don't think a book Sean Hannity would write on socialism would be received well in a wiki article pertaining to said subject and would raise editorial ire fairly quickly. We are dealing with much the same situation here. Geog1 (talk) 18:54, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
- Sean Hannity is not an academic and does not write academic books. As such he's rather irrelevant to this discussion and the context of my response which was specific to the review of academic books and journals. Simonm223 (talk) 18:56, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
- Academics do not represent completely neutral views. Certainly not Arvidsson. Just like Sean Hannity doesn't. Separating the two is not as useful as you think. Both entities are capable of publishing highly skewed views on any position. You're essentially discouraging due diligence here. I don't find that very academic and suspect in its own right. Geog1 (talk) 19:02, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
- WP:NPOV does not mean that a source must be neutral. Simonm223 (talk) Simonm223 (talk) 19:11, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
- Bringing up the highly biased and skewed Arvidsson text as not within the many guidelines within Misplaced Pages's NPOV is fair game. You are trying to set your own perimiters here. Geog1 (talk) 19:31, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
- WP:NPOV does not mean that a source must be neutral. Simonm223 (talk) Simonm223 (talk) 19:11, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
- Academics do not represent completely neutral views. Certainly not Arvidsson. Just like Sean Hannity doesn't. Separating the two is not as useful as you think. Both entities are capable of publishing highly skewed views on any position. You're essentially discouraging due diligence here. I don't find that very academic and suspect in its own right. Geog1 (talk) 19:02, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
- Sean Hannity is not an academic and does not write academic books. As such he's rather irrelevant to this discussion and the context of my response which was specific to the review of academic books and journals. Simonm223 (talk) 18:56, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
- I think that is rather naive and not very reasonable that an author's background or ideology wouldn't be relevant and that due diligence shouldn't be given to an author's background when choosing sources that would write fairly or reasonably on a subject. I don't think a book Sean Hannity would write on socialism would be received well in a wiki article pertaining to said subject and would raise editorial ire fairly quickly. We are dealing with much the same situation here. Geog1 (talk) 18:54, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
- The context in which Arvidson's ideas presented here within the article (too many one sided views) coupled with how the ideology creates a biasing effect against the topic per the author's book is problematic. There are quite a few claims in the Arvidson book that shows he really just doesn't care for the study of Indo-European linguistics and mythology per his political stance which is bias. Question: are opinions derived from books written by authors with a strong right leaning political ideology allowed here on wikipedia and considered 'reliable sources'. Geog1 (talk) 16:46, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
- I'm sorry but we don't exclude a work from an academic just because they're Marxist. Simonm223 (talk) 16:23, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
- Right, I understand the issue here between primary and secondary sources. But I really don't think the secondary sources are necessarily reliable, Arvidson for instance has a political ideology that lends an inherent biased against what the journal is about. I suspect the same applies for probably other sources there as well. But it all seems at the end of the day unbalanced and against NPOV. Geog1 (talk) 00:49, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
- I mean, this is pretty quickly revealing itself as the unavoidable core issue though, right? We don't write encyclopedia articles based predominantly on primary sources—and in this case, what the journal itself contains is a primary source for claims about the journal itself—but on secondary sources, and so we're going to be first and foremost balancing what independent, published, reliable sources have to say about it. This is a pretty basic restatement of our core policy on neutral point of view and our guideline on reliable sources. Remsense ‥ 论 00:35, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
- No, I'm asking you about what you have. If you could collate the bibliography from scratch, what would it cite? Remsense ‥ 论 22:54, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
- Nearly everything else entered in that article is meant to make the journal basically look like neo-nazis literature which it is not. It is simply a linguistic journal that focuses on linguistic matters concerning the Indo-European language family. Hardly any of the content of the journal itself is presented or discussed in the article. Surely that is problematic in and of itself. The journal isn't about Roger Pearson yet the way the article is written would have you believe its all about Pearson and that the journal is racist which it can't possibly be since its a linguistic journal. Geog1 (talk) 22:52, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
- I agree that this is a problem that needs to be resolved. Anyone familiar with Indo-European studies is aware that the Journal of Indo-European Studies is a major, respected, and influential peer-reviewed publication in the field. :bloodofox: (talk) 00:39, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
- Exactly. There really isn't anything wrong with the Journal itself, especially if you read it, but the sources presented have a peculiar bias against the journal. Geog1 (talk) 00:46, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
- Well, you're free to think there's nothing wrong with it, but I'm genuinely not sure what we're meant to do while writing an encyclopedia article about it? Are we supposed to adopt a totally novel process than when writing about anything else? (To the best of my ability, these aren't rhetorical questions.) Remsense ‥ 论 00:49, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
- In short, we just need to build out the article more regarding its reception, especially with discussion from individuals who actually have a background and standing in historical linguistics. For example, a quick look at the editor-in-chief since 2020 reveals quotes that actually reflect how the journal is perceived in for example philology and historical linguistics (eg. "a long-standing journal with a stellar reputation and a global reach"). :bloodofox: (talk) 00:53, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
- Well, you're free to think there's nothing wrong with it, but I'm genuinely not sure what we're meant to do while writing an encyclopedia article about it? Are we supposed to adopt a totally novel process than when writing about anything else? (To the best of my ability, these aren't rhetorical questions.) Remsense ‥ 论 00:49, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
- Exactly. There really isn't anything wrong with the Journal itself, especially if you read it, but the sources presented have a peculiar bias against the journal. Geog1 (talk) 00:46, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
- There are opinions about the journal expressed in secondary sources that have questionable merit. Especially when you compare these opinions to what's actually in the journal. This is indeed very problematic and presents a rather unique problem here. I don't know the best way to remedy this either other than through continued dialogue. Perhaps maybe we can strike a harmonious balance. At the moment, something is very wrong here. Geog1 (talk) 00:53, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
- Ultimately the article (as with all Misplaced Pages articles) needs to be based on what reliable secondary sources say about the journal. What editors think of the journal is of no import, and what editors of the journal say about it is of limited use. The solution is to find additional secondary sources that discuss the journal. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 17:19, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
- There are opinions about the journal expressed in secondary sources that have questionable merit. Especially when you compare these opinions to what's actually in the journal. This is indeed very problematic and presents a rather unique problem here. I don't know the best way to remedy this either other than through continued dialogue. Perhaps maybe we can strike a harmonious balance. At the moment, something is very wrong here. Geog1 (talk) 00:53, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
I see some edits made over at the JIES article but to me it seems making a whole subsection about Pearson does more to draw away what the journal is about. The journal is not Pearson. Contributors and editors like Mallory, Polome, Adams, and Kristiansen made the journal by and large what it is today. Not Pearson. We still have some ways to go here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Geog1 (talk • contribs) 16:11, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
- I think the solution is to simply build out the rest of the article and then return to it. :bloodofox: (talk) 17:56, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
- The secondary sources in the article clearly indicate your opinion - that the presence of a known white-supremacist as a founder of the journal is irrelevant to the reputation of the journal - is not universal among academics. I concur with bloodofox. If you're concerned about how the journal is depicted then you find sources that support it being described as not an armature of Mankind Quarterly. Simonm223 (talk) 18:29, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
- The limited secondary sources that are highly biased in the wiki as it stands does in no way represent a universal opinion among academics in and of themselves. The journal is simply not being represented fairly based on the texts available. Pearson's involvement is vastly over stated and the idea that its an extension of himself somehow is completely unfounded. Geog1 (talk) 18:59, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
- Ok this is getting repetitive. I'm sorry you haven't got the response here you hoped for. But the advice to improve the article by finding additional academic sources is good advice and would serve you better than suggesting we should never treat the criticism of a journal with a white supremacist founder as due because said criticism came from a Marxist. Simonm223 (talk) 19:01, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
- Again you're discouraging due diligence and whether or not a source can be viewed as reliable or not. If you would just read the journal yourself you would see its not at all what Arvidsson is trying to paint it as. Geog1 (talk) 19:04, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
- I'm sorry but do your own research isn't appropriate in this case. Arvidsson is reliable because he's an academic writing about the topic that is at the literal core of his academic domain. He is, flatly put, a WP:BESTSOURCE for criticism of Indo-European studies. As such it would be a violation of WP:NPOV to exclude him. However that does not mean that Misplaced Pages should treat his position as privileged in some way. If other WP:BESTSOURCES disagree with him then they would be due inclusion too. This is why you've been told to find other sources. Simonm223 (talk) 19:09, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
- Ardvisson as a 'best choice' in this is simply your opinion. You're a socialist after all, so apparently he seems reasonable to you. Many others would not feel the same way you do. Sorry if you do no understand that. But feel free to continue the 'repetive' conversation here. At the end of the day all I see is due diligence being discouraged and a lack of NPOV. Geog1 (talk) 19:28, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
- And now we have reached the point in the conversation when I ask you to read WP:NPA. Simonm223 (talk) 19:30, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
- There was no personal attack. My tone was the same as yours. For all intended purposes that would mean you should read that yourself. If you would like to end this conversation cordially, now would be fine. We simply don't agree. Geog1 (talk) 19:32, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
You're a socialist after all...
is, in context, a personal attack as you're suggesting my own, openly stated, politics makes me incapable of recognizing whether an academic is operating within his specialty - which he did his doctoral thesis on - and are trying to dismiss my advice accordingly. I would kindly ask you to strike that comment. Simonm223 (talk) 20:01, 3 December 2024 (UTC)- I said politely that we should end this conversation as its turning out to be very, very unproductive. We don't agree on anything apparently and I don't take very well to people discouraging due diligence and setting their own standards on how wiki guidelines should be viewed. Please, stop. Geog1 (talk) 20:09, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
- There was no personal attack. My tone was the same as yours. For all intended purposes that would mean you should read that yourself. If you would like to end this conversation cordially, now would be fine. We simply don't agree. Geog1 (talk) 19:32, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
- And now we have reached the point in the conversation when I ask you to read WP:NPA. Simonm223 (talk) 19:30, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
- Ardvisson as a 'best choice' in this is simply your opinion. You're a socialist after all, so apparently he seems reasonable to you. Many others would not feel the same way you do. Sorry if you do no understand that. But feel free to continue the 'repetive' conversation here. At the end of the day all I see is due diligence being discouraged and a lack of NPOV. Geog1 (talk) 19:28, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
- I'm sorry but do your own research isn't appropriate in this case. Arvidsson is reliable because he's an academic writing about the topic that is at the literal core of his academic domain. He is, flatly put, a WP:BESTSOURCE for criticism of Indo-European studies. As such it would be a violation of WP:NPOV to exclude him. However that does not mean that Misplaced Pages should treat his position as privileged in some way. If other WP:BESTSOURCES disagree with him then they would be due inclusion too. This is why you've been told to find other sources. Simonm223 (talk) 19:09, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
- Again you're discouraging due diligence and whether or not a source can be viewed as reliable or not. If you would just read the journal yourself you would see its not at all what Arvidsson is trying to paint it as. Geog1 (talk) 19:04, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
- Ok this is getting repetitive. I'm sorry you haven't got the response here you hoped for. But the advice to improve the article by finding additional academic sources is good advice and would serve you better than suggesting we should never treat the criticism of a journal with a white supremacist founder as due because said criticism came from a Marxist. Simonm223 (talk) 19:01, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
- The limited secondary sources that are highly biased in the wiki as it stands does in no way represent a universal opinion among academics in and of themselves. The journal is simply not being represented fairly based on the texts available. Pearson's involvement is vastly over stated and the idea that its an extension of himself somehow is completely unfounded. Geog1 (talk) 18:59, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
- The secondary sources in the article clearly indicate your opinion - that the presence of a known white-supremacist as a founder of the journal is irrelevant to the reputation of the journal - is not universal among academics. I concur with bloodofox. If you're concerned about how the journal is depicted then you find sources that support it being described as not an armature of Mankind Quarterly. Simonm223 (talk) 18:29, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
- I mean, if that's what sources say about it, then that's what sources say about it. The sources we're citing there are largely academics with at least some degree of expertise in Indo-European studies, race science or far-right movements. Also, we're really only devoting a few sentences to the matter, which are roughly balanced in terms of focus - two for scholars who criticize it; one noting the existence of the boycott, and two from Tucker and Mallory defending the journal (and the defenses are given slightly more text!) Having them exactly balance out like that isn't necessary of course, but it makes it harder to argue that they're being given undue weight - aside from the fact that the page says almost nothing else about the journal at all, which is solved by finding other sources covering other aspects. (I will say that I did a quick search right now and found only a few passing mentions, all of which were about the race science connection to one degree or another. That really does seem to be the only aspect of the journal that has received meaningful external coverage. See eg. :
Although Duranton-Crabol (1988: 148), fifteen years ago, pointed with alarm to his involvement, Lincoln appears to be the first US-based Indo-European specialist to openly comment on the worrisome background of Roger Pearson, the publisher of the prestigious Journal of Indo-European Studies since its founding in 1973.
Notable mostly because it's a secondary source describing such concerns, which lends additional weight to at least mentioning them.) ...also, they point out that Bruce Lincoln, who we cite in the article, is actually an Indo-European specialist; we might want to look at what we're citing him for and see if there are more details there. --Aquillion (talk) 22:00, 3 December 2024 (UTC) - @Geog1: You must notify other editors involved in a discussion (i.e. me) when you post it to this noticeboard. There is a big red notice instructing you to this at the top of the page. – Joe (talk) 07:13, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
- I don't really get what we can do here. "Neutral" specifically is a technical term meaning in proportion to what the independent, reliable secondary sources have said on the topic, and the limits of editorial discretion do not extend to excluding the what seems to be the views expressed by the majority of those sources, as indicated by the participants here. If the sources say that the earth is flat, then we can only report that that is what the sources say. Misplaced Pages does not have the resources to conduct original research, and it would be disallowed by policy even if we were able to. Alpha3031 (t • c) 09:28, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
Just one other thing I have to bring up here. I noticed the Tucker quote had the text about Pearson's involvement regarding published material in JIES flagged as dubious for a while. I don't know by who. Eventually it was removed because someone (not sure who) did research noting Pearson had published 3 articles in the journal. That would seem to be original research. When we look at the Berlet and Lyons quote being used in the article, they claim the Journal is 'racialist' and 'ayranist' but it is a linguistic journal not 'racialist' or whatever. This can be seen by just reading a few entries from the journal which can easily be found online just like the Berlet and Lyons quote was easily pulled for online yet we see that characterization of the journal persist. This appears to present some inconsistency on how editing policy is being used.
I see the comment by Aquillion mentions how if 'reliable' sources report the earth is flat, then according to wikipedia policy, its fair game to put into an article and discuss. While I understand this is a policy, I'm not entirely sure if its serving us well here. This could open the door of Pandora's box for all sorts of misinformation to be presented in wiki articles.
Finally, I took a look at the Journal of the Royal Statistical Society article. I see an entire section with no sources entitled 'discussion papers' which essentially relates to the journal's content. No one for some reason seems bothered that its not sourced but I have doubts that a similar section in the JIES article would go without scrutiny if we were to say flesh out what the content of the journal is actually like. Again, it would appear inconsistencies are presented here regarding wikipedia policy being applied to two different journals.
I don't know what can be done here, but like I said before in the JIES talk page, I'd welcome more information that could help balance out the article a little more. However, I also feel this is a situation where wikipedia policy is failing a particular article and I doubt this is the only one. In the future, it may be useful to revisit wikipedia policy and see if changes could be made to help prevent or better remedy situations like this.
Best,
Geog1 (talk) 17:02, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Geog1Thank you for bringing up these important points. It's clear that there's a need for careful scrutiny and consistent application of Misplaced Pages's policies to ensure accuracy and neutrality in our articles.
- Regarding the Tucker quote and Pearson's involvement, it's essential to rely on verifiable sources and avoid original research. If a reliable source supports the claim that Pearson published in JIES, then it can be included. However, if the source is questionable, it should be approached with caution.
- The characterization of the JIES as "racialist" and "Aryanist" is a serious allegation. It's crucial to base such claims on solid evidence from reliable sources. Simply reading a few articles may not be sufficient to make such a sweeping judgment. If there are specific examples of racist or discriminatory content in the journal, they should be cited and discussed in a neutral manner.
- The Aquillion comment about the "flat Earth" scenario highlights a potential limitation of Misplaced Pages's policies. While it's important to be open to diverse viewpoints, it's equally important to maintain a high standard of quality and accuracy. In cases where there is a clear consensus among reliable sources, it's important to prioritize that consensus over fringe theories.
- The issue of unsourced content in the Journal of the Royal Statistical Society is a valid concern. However, it's important to consider the context and purpose of such sections. If these sections are intended to stimulate discussion and debate, rather than present definitive facts, then they may not require strict adherence to sourcing guidelines. Tattipedia (talk) 06:14, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
- Everything being discussed is appropriately sourced to highly reliable sources. Simonm223 (talk) 12:07, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
- Also please have the respect for other people not to reply with a textwall of obvious chatbot glurge. Simonm223 (talk) 12:09, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
- Everything being discussed is appropriately sourced to highly reliable sources. Simonm223 (talk) 12:07, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
notability concerns
- Gonna skip all the conversation above and ask an honest question... can we just delete it? states it has an h-index of 10, and states an impact factor of 0.2. It doesn't seem like it would survive WP:NJOURNAL. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 20:47, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
- Did AfD: Misplaced Pages:Articles_for_deletion/Journal_of_Indo-European_Studies Bluethricecreamman (talk) 20:59, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
- The result was speedy keep.XavierItzm (talk) 17:25, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
- Did AfD: Misplaced Pages:Articles_for_deletion/Journal_of_Indo-European_Studies Bluethricecreamman (talk) 20:59, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
Open Orthodoxy & David Bar-Hayim
Some IPv6 has opinions about Open Orthodoxy & David Bar-Hayim. Can someone who knows about such things please take a look? Thanks, Polygnotus (talk) 07:27, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
Confusing language from a Mark Biondich source related to Balkans
"In the period between 1878 and 1912, as many as two million Muslims emigrated voluntarily or involuntarily from the Balkans. When one adds those who were killed or expelled between 1912 and 1923, the number of Muslim casualties from the Balkan far exceeds three million. By 1923 fewer than one million remained in the Balkans.": https://books.google.com/books?id=gt8SDAAAQBAJ&q=Muslims+casualties+millions+Balkans&pg=PA93
Why would Mark Biondich add those "killed or expelled" to those Muslims who emigrated to mean deaths as is stated in the Persecution of Muslims during Ottoman contraction article. As I see it from a neutral viewpoint, he refers to the reduction of Balkan Muslims as "casualties from the Balkans".
I would like to get other viewpoints and advice related to these. Theofunny (talk) 12:24, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
- Theofunny, the way I understand your interpretation, when Biondich says "the number of Muslim casualties from the Balkan far exceeds three million", you think this includes those expelled, right? So you think the word "casualties" do not mean only deaths. Is this correct? Bogazicili (talk) 13:24, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
- Yes exactly. Like even in a war, the term casualties is quite flexible and is a source for confusion as it could mean all who are dead or all are dead as well as injured. Theofunny (talk) 13:28, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
- Later in the page he uses the term "victims" for "dead, wounded, and refugees". I don't think the term is as flexible as you think. Bogazicili (talk) 13:42, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
- Generally "casualties" includes dead and wounded. Including refugees is a bit novel but I don't think it's unduly confusing provided it's described with care. Simonm223 (talk) 13:48, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
- The question is, is my rewording in the article Persecution of Muslims during the Ottoman contraction correct?
The historian Mark Biondich estimates that, in the 19th and early 20th centuries, more than three million Muslims from the Balkan area died, and around two million Muslims were displaced.
Bogazicili (talk) 13:51, 6 December 2024 (UTC)- Those numbers don't seem to line up with what the OP posted as a quote from the source. Can you please elaborate? Simonm223 (talk) 14:00, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
- I had interpreted the quote from the source as how Biondich calculated the number of deaths (casualties). Bogazicili (talk) 14:04, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
"In the period between 1878 and 1912, as many as two million Muslims emigrated voluntarily or involuntarily from the Balkans. When one adds those who were killed or expelled between 1912 and 1923, the number of Muslim casualties from the Balkan far exceeds three million. By 1923 fewer than one million remained in the Balkans."
He says 2 million left between 1878 and 1912. He says more than another million ("When one adds...") left or died between 1912 and 1923. (The number who died or left 1912-1923 is added to the number who left 1878-1912 to equal "far exceeds three million".) The source does not support any number that died because he groups those who left in the same estimate. Schazjmd (talk) 14:12, 6 December 2024 (UTC)- Yeah my concern is that the two figures seem to be divided chronologically but not by type. So we can't determine what percentage of the three million were killed rather than expelled or wounded. Simonm223 (talk) 14:17, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
- I had interpreted the quote from the source as how Biondich calculated the number of deaths (casualties). Bogazicili (talk) 14:04, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
- Those numbers don't seem to line up with what the OP posted as a quote from the source. Can you please elaborate? Simonm223 (talk) 14:00, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
- The question is, is my rewording in the article Persecution of Muslims during the Ottoman contraction correct?
- Generally "casualties" includes dead and wounded. Including refugees is a bit novel but I don't think it's unduly confusing provided it's described with care. Simonm223 (talk) 13:48, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
- Later in the page he uses the term "victims" for "dead, wounded, and refugees". I don't think the term is as flexible as you think. Bogazicili (talk) 13:42, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
- Yes exactly. Like even in a war, the term casualties is quite flexible and is a source for confusion as it could mean all who are dead or all are dead as well as injured. Theofunny (talk) 13:28, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Theofunny+1 Tattipedia (talk) 08:15, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
Thanks everyone! Looks like I was incorrect in this one due to my misinterpretation of the word "casualty".
I was also confused because McCarthy and Kaser give much higher number of deaths, around 5 million, in Persecution of Muslims during the Ottoman contraction. So 3 million made more sense.
Now I see that it has to do with dates. It should have been clear from the quote actually, but looks like I missed it.
The Balkans: Revolution, War, and Political Violence since 1878 is available through Misplaced Pages Library. Page 94:
When one adds those who were killed or expelled between 1912 and 1923, the number of Muslim casualties from the Balkan far exceeds three million. By 1923 fewer than one million remained in the Balkans.157
Source 157:
157. Mazower, The Balkans, pp. xxxvii–xxxviii; and McCarthy, Ottoman Peoples, 149–62
Biondich gives same numbers and sources in The Routledge History Handbook of Central and Eastern Europe in the Twentieth Century Volume 4: Violence chapter The Balkan Wars, page 1:
The road from Berlin to Lausanne was littered with millions of casualties. Between 1878 and 1912, millions of Balkan Muslims emigrated or were forced from the region. When one adds up those who were killed or expelled between the Balkan Wars (1912–13) and Greco-Turkish War (1919–22), the number of Balkan-Muslim casualties may have exceeded three million. By 1923, fewer than one million Muslims remained in the Balkans.1
...
1 Mark Mazower, The Balkans: A Short History (New York: Random House, 2002), xxxvii–xxxviii;
Justin McCarthy, The Ottoman Peoples and the End of Empire (London: Arnold, 2001), 149–62.
I don't have Justin McCarthy, The Ottoman Peoples and the End of Empire. But the book seems to cover 1912-1922 period of Ottoman Empire . So this aligns with the quote from Biondich.
This is what Mark Mazower, The Balkans: A Short History says, pages xxxvii–xxxviii
Christian Europe’s blindness to Muslim victims overlooked the huge movements of populations triggered off by Ottoman decline. “People often talk in the West about transporting all the Turks, in other words Muslims, to Asia in order to turn Turkey in Europe into a uniquely Christian empire,” Ami Boué had written in 1854. “This would be a decree as inhumane as the expulsion of the Jews from Spain, or of Protestants from France, and indeed scarcely feasible since the Europeans always forget that in Turkey in Europe the Muslims are mostly Slavs or Albanians, whose right to the land is as ancient as that of their Christian compatriots.” Yet, according to one estimate, nearly 5 million Muslims were driven from former Ottoman lands in the Balkans and the Black Sea region in the century after 1821; from the Balkans themselves between 1.7 and 2 million Muslims immigrated voluntarily or involuntarily between 1878 and 1913 to what would later become the republic of Turkey. The Turkish language declined as a regional lingua franca, urban settlements were taken over by Christian incomers and Ottoman buildings were deliberately demolished or left to rot. The dynamiting of mosques and other architectural masterpieces in Bosnia-Hercegovina in the early 1990s was thus the continuation in an extreme form of a process of de-Islamicization that had begun decades earlier.19
So the general confusion we had in Talk:Persecution_of_Muslims_during_the_Ottoman_contraction#Death_toll_and_casualty_figures: has to do with dates and geographic areas (Balkans only or including other areas). Whether from 1820 to 1920, or 1878 to 1912, or 1912 to 1923. Mark Mazower only talks about displaced, but the 5 million displaced after 1821 is also in other sources.
I'll fix the wording in affected articles in Misplaced Pages. Bogazicili (talk) 15:07, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
- You should add the displaced figures by Mark Mazower in the article and and a displaced section in the infobox too with the other sources and Mark M. Theofunny (talk) 15:25, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
- I can't do everything today, but I'll make some of the changes later. I already changed the wording in the article Bogazicili (talk) 15:33, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
Talk:BRICS
It is a dispute in about https://en.wikipedia.org/BRICS#cite_note-:2-173
Nobody seem willing to verify my citation therefore I lost this edit war. https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:BRICS Dark Flow (talk) 17:14, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
- Can you give more details and a link to the discussion at the talk page? Right now it's not clear what the dispute was about. Also, you might want to review WP:BATTLEGROUND and assume good faith. Alaexis¿question? 20:49, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
- Dear @Alaexis , yeah I can https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:BRICS#Much_more_efficient_than_SWIFT .
- I didn't get notified of your reply, please use the @user citation it would make it easier to keep up with the conversation. Dark Flow (talk) 21:39, 12 December 2024 (UTC)
( @Walter you are welcome to join ;) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dark Flow (talk • contribs) 21:20, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
Contradictory Claims on HTS Governance and Human Rights Violations
The article on Hayʼat Tahrir al-Sham (HTS), a Syrian paramilitary organisation that has been designated a terrorist organisation by a variety of countries, contains contradictory information about the governance of HTS in occupied territories.
The Governance section claims HTS has generally not interfered in womens' lives, has been tolerant towards religious minorities, and has been lenient towards civilians. These statements are based primarily on a chapter written by Dareen Khalifa in the book The Rule is for None but Allah, published by Oxford University Press. Khalifa’s work relies heavily on interviews with HTS leaders. For many claims about HTS' tolerance, the source she gives is "author interview, Jolani ", "author interview, HTS commander" or similar.
However, as an anonymous user pointed out, the section Human rights violations and war crimes (which for transparency I authored) contradicts this, citing multiple lengthy reports by the UN, EU, US, and human rights organisations, which document enforced dress codes, repression of women, executions for "crimes" such as blasphemy, forced disappearances of political opponents and activists, persecution of minorities, torture, among others. The governance section makes no mention of these reports, or that much of the current information in this sections relies on interviews with HTS leadership.
The primary dispute appears to be that the users @Whoopsawa and @Shadowwarrior8 consider Khalifa's chapter a reliable (or authoritative, given that her claims about HTS tolerance are stated as fact) source, because even though many of her claims are based on interviews with HTS leadership, the chapter is in a book published by Oxford University Press. The user @Shadowwarrior8 is also of the opinion that the reports by the US government are "propaganda", although the user has not addressed the reports by other institutions that come to similar conclusions as the US reports.
I am the other party to this dispute, and am of the opinion that the variety of reports by multiple - in my view credible - international organisations and human rights groups (and yes, the US too) should at least bear enough significance to warrant a re-writing of the Governance section, making it clear that much of the information regarding HTS' tolerance is based on HTS' self-portrayal in interviews and that there exist multiple credible reports that document a rather draconian and repressive governance policy employed by HTS. For example the European Union Agency for Asylum concludes that HTS has interfered "in every aspect of civilian life" and notes that women have been whipped or even executed for violating religious dress codes (p. 88).
The discussion on the talk page can be found here. Neither @Whoopsawa, @Shadowwarrior8 or I have engaged in edit warring, but the way this discussion is going appears to be an endless back-and-forth, so it would be nice to get outside opinions.
Sarrotrkux (talk) 00:14, 12 December 2024 (UTC)
Have I successfully removed the promotional content from this article?
The owner of emailSanta.com made WP:COI and WP:YESPROMO edits at his own article yesterday. I tried to remove the "fluff" and restore the WP:NPOV. Has the WP:NPOV been restored, or is it still too promotional? Félix An (talk) 01:41, 12 December 2024 (UTC)
- yes, looks better now Bluethricecreamman (talk) 21:20, 12 December 2024 (UTC)
Edits to “Game Science”
Discussion regarding Game Science has grown into an intense deadlock where the other editor insists that I have not read their arguments. As the first subsection deals with a POV edit and the disputed edits create a POV more favorable to Game Science, I would appreciate your comment at Talk:Game Science#Interview-based edits. Aaron Liu (talk) 19:25, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
- This isn't actually a neutrality problem. You've been arguing against things like attribution of quotes and secondary sources. Heck you tried to argue with me that attribution automatically casts doubt on the attributed statement. Simonm223 (talk) 20:15, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
- As I’ve said, the first subsection is about a neutrality issue. I am contesting that change because it violates NPOV, which explicitly mentions and forbids casting doubt through attribution. Aaron Liu (talk) 20:20, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
- Attribution is not automatically casting doubt - it's good practice dealing with quotes or opinions to attribute them. Simonm223 (talk) 20:22, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
- Not according to NPOV for RSes that state factual information, as I’ve quoted the policy to show in the discussion on the article’s talk page. I encourage you (and anyone else) to reply there for the added context of the quote. Aaron Liu (talk) 20:39, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
- It's a newspaper. It doesn't hurt the article to says "according to SCMP" and your resistance to that is perplexing. Simonm223 (talk) 20:41, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
- Look, I and a policy supported by community consensus agree that adding in-text attribution when we already have inline citations unnecessarily casts doubt. If you disagree with the policy, try and get consensus to change it. Aaron Liu (talk) 20:50, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
- I think your policy interpretation is weak. And, generally, a person who says, "I have consensus" doesn't. Simonm223 (talk) 20:52, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
- Specifically your policy citation is to WP:SKYBLUE and this is not a "the sky is blue" situation here but is, rather, a newspaper reporting on an acquisition where the acquiring stakeholder refused to comment. Simonm223 (talk) 20:55, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
- I don't see how "the acquiring stakeholder refused to comment" makes the fact that an acquisition happened doubtable and require in-text attribution. (Also, I'm fairly sure you didn't mean to cite an essay on inline citation, which is about the , not "according to...". My reply here assumes you were contesting whether the claim
Hero Games acquired a 19% stake in Game Science through its wholly-owned subsidiary Tianjin Hero Financial Holding Technology in 2017, but sold the stake in 2022
falls underUncontested and uncontroversial factual assertions made by reliable sources
.)
You may as well tell that to everyone who cites a policy to remove text it explicitly forbids. Anyways, I'll be moving this to the article talk page soon. Aaron Liu (talk) 22:46, 13 December 2024 (UTC)generally, a person who says, "I have consensus" doesn't.
- I don't see how "the acquiring stakeholder refused to comment" makes the fact that an acquisition happened doubtable and require in-text attribution. (Also, I'm fairly sure you didn't mean to cite an essay on inline citation, which is about the , not "according to...". My reply here assumes you were contesting whether the claim
- Specifically your policy citation is to WP:SKYBLUE and this is not a "the sky is blue" situation here but is, rather, a newspaper reporting on an acquisition where the acquiring stakeholder refused to comment. Simonm223 (talk) 20:55, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
- I think your policy interpretation is weak. And, generally, a person who says, "I have consensus" doesn't. Simonm223 (talk) 20:52, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
- Look, I and a policy supported by community consensus agree that adding in-text attribution when we already have inline citations unnecessarily casts doubt. If you disagree with the policy, try and get consensus to change it. Aaron Liu (talk) 20:50, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
- It's a newspaper. It doesn't hurt the article to says "according to SCMP" and your resistance to that is perplexing. Simonm223 (talk) 20:41, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
- Not according to NPOV for RSes that state factual information, as I’ve quoted the policy to show in the discussion on the article’s talk page. I encourage you (and anyone else) to reply there for the added context of the quote. Aaron Liu (talk) 20:39, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Aaron Liu You do not have permission to refactor my comments please restore this discussion to its prior state. Simonm223 (talk) 23:09, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
- Ugh, if you say so. I'll transclude it there then. It's much better to centralize discussion in one place. Aaron Liu (talk) 23:24, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
- It is clear that South Morning Post reported on the relation between Hero Games and Game Science. It is also clear that Hero Games stated that they couldn't comment on the relation when asked directly about it. Using wikivoice is inappropiate, and an attribution is needed. Secondly, don't act like you have a consensus by proxy for your unilateral stance though a (misrepresentation of a) policy. --Cold Season (talk) 14:49, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
- I am replying on the article's talk page to centralize discussion. Aaron Liu (talk) 17:50, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
- You brought the discussion to the noticeboard. This is borderline disruptive. Simonm223 (talk) 17:56, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
- It is very common to notify and invite noticeboards to comment elsewhere. I invited participants of these noticeboards to comment on Talk:Game Science. Aaron Liu (talk) 19:17, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
- You brought the discussion to the noticeboard. This is borderline disruptive. Simonm223 (talk) 17:56, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
- I am replying on the article's talk page to centralize discussion. Aaron Liu (talk) 17:50, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
- It is clear that South Morning Post reported on the relation between Hero Games and Game Science. It is also clear that Hero Games stated that they couldn't comment on the relation when asked directly about it. Using wikivoice is inappropiate, and an attribution is needed. Secondly, don't act like you have a consensus by proxy for your unilateral stance though a (misrepresentation of a) policy. --Cold Season (talk) 14:49, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
- Ugh, if you say so. I'll transclude it there then. It's much better to centralize discussion in one place. Aaron Liu (talk) 23:24, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
- Attribution is not automatically casting doubt - it's good practice dealing with quotes or opinions to attribute them. Simonm223 (talk) 20:22, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
- As I’ve said, the first subsection is about a neutrality issue. I am contesting that change because it violates NPOV, which explicitly mentions and forbids casting doubt through attribution. Aaron Liu (talk) 20:20, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
Talk:Len_Blavatnik#RfC:_NPOV_in_the_lead
@C at Access: Circulating on relevant noticeboards... essentially if contentious oligarch label should be mentioned in intro Bluethricecreamman (talk) 20:41, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
NextEra Energy
Hi editors, I'm Matt and I work for NextEra Energy. I currently have two edit requests (first one linked here that I think are directly applicable to this noticeboard. Content added some time ago by a now-banned user (Surge of Reason), which was largely copied from the Florida Power & Light article, creates some neutrality issues, particularly as relates to WP:STRUCTURE. The above linked request is to move content in a section titled "Environmental issues" about a power plant that was never built – and therefore can't be an issue – to the History section, in line with WP:NOCRIT.
The second request is a bit meatier and involves removing some content that is pulled directly from a source without attribution and/or uses poor sourcing for negative information that doesn't meet the requirements of WP:RS, and moving what remains to the History section, again to improve WP:STRUCTURE in line with NOCRIT. I would appreciate any feedback or help you can offer. Because of my COI I have avoided making these changes myself and I'd like to have this page be reflective of our overall desire to have the page be neutral and factual. ~~~~ NextEraMatt (talk) 23:07, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
- In any case, as an editor I genuinely appreciate these requests being made in a responsible and transparent manner. Remsense ‥ 论 05:04, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
Unwarranted promotional and COI tags on film articles
Hi, I need help with some tags that have been added to two articles please:
- It's Coming (film)
- Draft:The Misguided
I'm getting pretty tired of the constant unfounded allegations. First it was paid editing (which got removed after review), then COI tags without evidence, and now suddenly it's "promotional content" - but nobody's actually pointed out what's promotional or what constitutes a conflict of interest. Here's the situation:
1. Everything in these articles comes from proper independent sources like The Hollywood Reporter, LA Times, and Film Threat 2. Yes, some reviews are positive, but that's what the reliable sources reported 3. My only contact with the filmmaker was to check facts like dates and get source materials 4. I have no other connection to these films or anyone involved 5. The latest tags were just slapped on without any discussion, continuing this pattern of baseless accusations
The articles stick to Misplaced Pages's neutral point of view rules. If something sounds promotional, tell me what it is and I'll fix it. I'm happy to add any negative reviews too if someone can find them in reliable sources.
You can see the whole frustrating history here:
- Misplaced Pages:Help desk#Help with New Page Patrol Review and Paid Editing Tag Removal for "It's Coming"
- Misplaced Pages:Help desk#Dispute over Paid Editing Tag on "It's Coming" and Review of "The Misguided" Draft
- Misplaced Pages:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard#COI tags on "It's Coming (film)" and "The Misguided"
Can we get a fair review based on what's actually in the articles, not just assumptions and accusations? I am requesting that these unwarranted promotional content and COI tags be removed from the articles. Much appreciated!
Stan1900 (talk) 22:39, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
- Update: I've just discovered that the entire Reception section, which contained properly sourced reviews from Rotten Tomatoes and multiple independent critics, has been removed without discussion. This further demonstrates the issue with these arbitrary content removals. The deleted section was entirely based on reliable sources and followed Misplaced Pages guidelines. I have preserved the content and sources and request review of both the tags and this content removal. Stan1900 (talk) 23:01, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
- This discussion is Talk:It's_Coming_(film)#Promotional_tag here. You should know, you posted in the section. MrOllie (talk) 23:07, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
- MrOllie, yes, I'm aware of that discussion. The wholesale removal of a properly sourced Reception section warrants broader review. This isn't just about a tag anymore - it's about the removal of verified content from reliable sources without justification. Stan1900 (talk) 23:11, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
- It wasn't "removed without discussion" as you just stated, then, was it? You've had an account since 2017, and in that time 100% of your editing has been about the films of Shannon Alexander, and often quite promotional in nature. If you don't want people to think you have a COI, I suggest you tone down the rhetoric, and strongly consider finding a way to improve the encyclopedia that is entirely unrelated to Alexander. MrOllie (talk) 23:15, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
- MrOllie,
- 1. The Reception section was actually just removed without proper discussion. A few quick comments declaring content "promotional" without specific examples doesn't constitute real consensus.
- 2. Your statement about my editing history is wrong. My account was created to edit Katherine Langford's article, completely unrelated to Shannon Alexander. My recent focus on documenting these films stems from noticing a gap in coverage of internationally-recognized work - I've said countless times.
- 3. There's nothing "promotional" about including properly sourced reviews from reliable publications. If positive reviews exist in reliable sources, documenting them isn't promotion - it's proper encyclopedic coverage.
- The focus should be on specific content concerns, not repeated unfounded attacks and assumptions about editor's motivations. Stan1900 (talk) 23:21, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
- Katherine Langford's article, where you wanted to correct information about a project she'd recently been in. Who made that film, I wonder? diff. Dishonesty is not going to help - every time you post something like this these 'attacks and assumptions' you mention appear to become better supported. MrOllie (talk) 23:27, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
- This is just blatant forum shopping of a grievance previously discussed at the Helpdesk and now at COIN .
- Also, why does the user continue to lie that their edits to Katherine Langford were
completely unrelated to Shannon Alexander
? - Here is one of the edits :
Langford will appear in her first feature film, The Misguided, an independent comedic drama by Shannon Alexander
. In actual fact, all of the user's edits to that article relate to Langford being in a film by Shannon Alexander. - Pants on fire, my friend, pants on fire... Axad12 (talk) 23:39, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
- And Stan...
- The reason the tags are in place and the reasons that the removals of material have occurred is that pretty much everyone who has commented in the various threads you've started disagrees fundamentally with what appears to be your transparent promotional agenda.
- For reference, normal editors do not (a) create promotional articles, (b) open multiple threads trying to hurry the articles through AfC, (c) talk about when the articles will start to appear on Google searches, and (d) open multiple threads trying to strongarm other users into removing COI/PAID tags.
- That pattern of behaviour is how conflict of interest users operate, usually ones who have been paid to produce articles to order. Axad12 (talk) 23:59, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
- MrOllie, your implication about my editing history misses the point. Like many editors, I followed connected topics that revealed gaps in coverage. Following a subject area and documenting it with reliable sources isn't wrong - it's how Misplaced Pages grows.
- More concerning is the removal of an entire Reception section containing properly sourced reviews from established publications. The content was based on reliable sources including Rotten Tomatoes and Film Threat. If specific statements appeared promotional, they should have been identified and discussed, not wholesale removed.
- This pattern of removing sourced content while making assumptions about contributors' motivations vioaltes Misplaced Pages's principles. Stan1900 (talk) 04:48, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
- It was discussed in the relevant place and the consensus was for removal. Another user has since added back the Rotten Tomatoes part of the Reception section, by which we can reasonably assume that they agree with the rest of the removal.
- As I have stated to you before, the WP:ONUS is on the editor wishing to include material, not on those wishing to remove it. There is clearly no consensus in favour of inclusion, so arguing for inclusion in 3 completely separate threads (this thread, this one and this one ) is pointless.
- In any event, it is obviously contrary to Misplaced Pages policy for an article about anything to be composed almost entirely of reviews, whether they are good or bad, so your line of argument is a very bad one in any case. Removal was thus entirely non-controversial. Axad12 (talk) 05:43, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
- Axad12, your interpretation of both consensus and policy continues to be problematic:
- 1. The "consensus" you reference was a single editor agreeing with you, while ignoring multiple objections. The fact that another editor has since restored part of the Reception section actually demonstrates that there isn't consensus for wholesale removal.
- 2. Your interpretation of WP:ONUS is incorrect in this context. The content was already established with proper reliable sources. The burden shifts to those seeking removal to demonstrate why properly sourced content should be deleted.
- 3. Your claim "it is obviously contrary to Misplaced Pages policy for an article about anything to be composed almost entirely of reviews" is simply false. Film articles regularly contain substantial reception sections when supported by reliable sources - see WP:FILMPLOT and WP:FILMSOURCE. The removed content was based entirely on independent, reliable sources providing critical analysis.
- 4. Regarding multiple discussion venues - each serves a distinct purpose and was used appropriately. Characterizing proper use of Misplaced Pages's established channels as "pointless" misrepresents how Misplaced Pages works.
- The core issue remains: properly sourced content was removed without valid policy-based justification or genuine consensus. Stan1900 (talk) 16:22, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
- You are completely wrong. Axad12 (talk) 16:27, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
- The core content issues remain:
- The removed material was based on reliable sources and followed standard article formatting. No concrete policy violations were identified.
- Removals occurred without consensus, and often without any substantive talk page discussion.
- Vague claims of "promotional" tone have been asserted without pointing to specific passages or policies.
- AI detection results are being misused to discredit good faith, policy-compliant contributions.
- If there are proper neutrality or sourcing concerns with the removed content, please identify the exact issues so they can be addressed collaboratively. But so far, the removals appear to be based more on unfounded personal suspicions than objective policy issues.
- Wiki articles rightly include reception sections with mainstream press reviews. That's not inherently 'promotional' it's documenting verifiable real-world coverage. Removing properly cited review content is detrimental to readers and sets a terrible precedent.
- I remain committed to working with anyone who has constructive, policy-based feedback on improving these articles further. But edit-warring removals and personal attacks need to stop in favor of substantive, collaborative discussion. We deserves better.
- Let's get back to focusing on content and policies, not personal battles. I'm happy to discuss any neutrality problems if you identify concrete examples. But so far I've yet to see a compelling rationale for these removals of policy-compliant material. Stan1900 (talk) 16:39, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
- The only important issue here is that, despite you starting multiple different threads in various different arenas, no one else agrees with you.
- Therefore the tags remain and the removals remain.
- You just have to accept that you are in the minority and move on. Continuing to argue is simply disruptive. Axad12 (talk) 16:46, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
- Axad12, your characterization of "no one else agrees" is both incorrect and misses the point. Several editors, including DMacks, have confirmed proper licensing and sourcing, and @Aafi has confirmed the images are restored after permissions verification. The issue isn't about counting votes - it's about following policy.
- The systematic removal of:
- 1. Properly licensed images (with verified VRT permissions)
- 2. Well-sourced content from reliable publications
- 3. Standard film article sections matching Misplaced Pages's format
- ...cannot be justified by simply claiming "you're in the minority." Misplaced Pages is not a vote-counting exercise - it's about following established policies for content inclusion. The continued removal of policy-compliant content while dismissing legitimate concerns is what's being noted and actually disruptive here. Stan1900 (talk) 18:26, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
- I have no interest in the image issue. I am talking about the tags and the removal of the Reception section.
- The consensus is again you and you are consistently arguing contrary to policy, so the distinction you draw above is rather pointless. You have also been demonstrated to be a liar. Axad12 (talk) 18:33, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
- Axad12,
- I strongly object to your repeated accusations of dishonesty. If you believe I have misrepresented anything, I ask that you provide clear evidence rather than resorting to personal attacks. Misplaced Pages is built on good faith and such language is both unproductive and contrary this platform.
- Regarding the tags and the Reception section, I have consistently argued my case based on policy, including WP:NPOV and WP:V. I have sought to include well-sourced and neutrally presented content.
- Consensus is not determined by the number of voices in a discussion but by the strength of the arguments grounded in Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines. I remain focused to working within those frameworks. Stan1900 (talk) 19:04, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
- I provided evidence of your dishonesty upthread here . The evidence is so clear that I will happily once again call you a liar. Axad12 (talk) 19:35, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
- Also, you consistently seem to believe that consensus is whatever you believe is correct, disregarding the opinions of every other user you encounter. Axad12 (talk) 19:43, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
- 1. Regarding transparency and process:
- - Paid editing tags were initially added but subsequently removed through proper channels after review
- - Wiki images were challenged but verified and reinstated through official processes
- - All content is based on reliable, independent sources
- - I served as an authorized representative specifically for image licensing/copyright verification, which was done transparently through proper Misplaced Pages channels
- 2. Regarding consensus, let's look at the actual outcomes:
- - Multiple administrators have reviewed and approved image reinstatements
- - Paid editing tags were removed after proper review
- - Content has been verified through reliable sources
- - I've made requested changes when specific issues were identified
- 3. This pattern shows I'm following Misplaced Pages's processes correctly. While I'm eager to expand my contributions to other topics and articles, I'm consistently forced to defend properly sourced and verified content instead of moving forward with new contributions.
- I’ve repeatedly suggested we focus on addressing specific content concerns through collaboration, but this has been met with nothing but resistance, preventing any meaningful progress. Stan1900 (talk) 20:36, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
- UPDATE: Stan1900 has now been indef blocked following a thread at ANI . Axad12 (talk) 23:29, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
- Also, you consistently seem to believe that consensus is whatever you believe is correct, disregarding the opinions of every other user you encounter. Axad12 (talk) 19:43, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
- I provided evidence of your dishonesty upthread here . The evidence is so clear that I will happily once again call you a liar. Axad12 (talk) 19:35, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
- You are completely wrong. Axad12 (talk) 16:27, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
- Katherine Langford's article, where you wanted to correct information about a project she'd recently been in. Who made that film, I wonder? diff. Dishonesty is not going to help - every time you post something like this these 'attacks and assumptions' you mention appear to become better supported. MrOllie (talk) 23:27, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
- It wasn't "removed without discussion" as you just stated, then, was it? You've had an account since 2017, and in that time 100% of your editing has been about the films of Shannon Alexander, and often quite promotional in nature. If you don't want people to think you have a COI, I suggest you tone down the rhetoric, and strongly consider finding a way to improve the encyclopedia that is entirely unrelated to Alexander. MrOllie (talk) 23:15, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
- MrOllie, yes, I'm aware of that discussion. The wholesale removal of a properly sourced Reception section warrants broader review. This isn't just about a tag anymore - it's about the removal of verified content from reliable sources without justification. Stan1900 (talk) 23:11, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
- This discussion is Talk:It's_Coming_(film)#Promotional_tag here. You should know, you posted in the section. MrOllie (talk) 23:07, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
RFC on Taylor Lorenz controversial statement regarding healthcare ceo shooting
Posting to relevant noticeboards: Talk:Taylor_Lorenz#RfC_on_Taylor_Lorenz's_comments_on_Brian_Thompson's_murder Bluethricecreamman (talk) 20:27, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
Bizarre weight on disordered eating in Grazing (human eating pattern)
Grazing (human eating pattern) is already a very specific article that might be worth merging into something more general, but Misplaced Pages is not paper so I guess there is no reason to not have an article on grazing. Still:
- Almost all the sources cite Conceição's work on disordered eating, and grazing's role in it.
- The article does not really describe grazing except for it being a risk factor in disordered eating, according to this one person.
- The article does contain information like the languages that Conceição's grazing questionnaire has been translated into.
I think if you exclude undue weight and Conceição-promotion then there are about 2 sentences worth of notable info which can be merged into another article. YAQUBROLI 21:47, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
Randa Kassis and connected pages
In the light of the recent fall of the Assad regime in Syria, I have been trying to update a bit the articles about the Syrian opposition. There, I noticed that a lot of importance was given to Mrs Randa Kassis, which made me suspect that this could be a case of WP:UNDUE. Please note that this version presented her as the "leader" of the Syrian opposition, as a "leading figure of the Syrian opposition" and a "Leading secular female figure", all in the biographical infobox. A lot of content in the Randa Kassis page seems to rely on primary sources. After a simple research I could find that Mrs Kassis is controversial among the opposition due to her alleged ties to Russia. 1, 2, 3. Other people within the opposition have presented her and her groups as Russian-backed operatives. This may or may not be true, but it has to be mentioned in the article.
Also, several pages have been created about the groups created or chaired by Mrs Kassis, namely the Movement of the Pluralistic Society, the Coalition of Secular and Democratic Syrians and the Astana Platform (the latter of which should be rewritten).
While the Astana Platform is notable enough to warrant a page, I have my doubts about the first two, so I proposed to first merge the Movement of the Pluralistic Society page into the Randa Kassis article.
As a result, an IP accused me here of being "obsessed by Randa Kassis", and commented that what I did was "revolting" and amounted to "an harassment or sectarian political activism aimed at erasing or muzzling anyone who does not have his opinions". There were also accusations of malicious libel, presumably also against me.
Several references mentioning Kassis' suspected role as a pro-Russian operative were removed. The merger request was also unilaterally removed (I just put it back). Please note this comment (I guess that "the admin" is supposed to be me, even though I am no admin). This comment, this one and this one also appear to be about me.
Apart from the personal attacks against me, I think that the pages about Randa Kassis and her initiatives need to be monitored and rewritten in order to ensure their neutrality and avoid WP:UNDUE as well as WP:PROMO and WP:Advocacy.
I have also added back these parts, which had been removed as it seems normal to mention the controversies within the opposition.
However, I will now abstain from editing the page about Randa Kassis as long as it has not been reviewed by third parties. Thank you. Psychloppos (talk) 08:47, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
- I’m from Egypt, and Randa Kassis is well known to many of us for her courage. Since 2007, she has spoken openly about social, political, and religious taboos and has appeared on numerous Arab media outlets. She was one of the first to champion secularism.
- You can observe that the secular coalition she created and presided over, alongside other opponents in 2011, preceded the formation of the Syrian National Council (SNC). After her expulsion from both the SNC and the secular coalition due to her warnings about Islamists, she ceased presiding over the secular coalition, and its fate remains unknown.
- She was the only member of the opposition to adopt a pragmatic approach, going on to establish the Astana Platform in 2015 and the Constitutional Committee in 2017. Both initiatives were later recognised by the UN, Russia, Turkey, and Iran. 102.188.124.44 (talk) 11:57, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
- I don't mind mentioning this, as long as it is duly sourced and does not make the page look like a promotional piece. What we must also mention, however, is that Randa Kassis' ties to Russia have been controversial and widely reported by the media. Psychloppos (talk) 12:54, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
- I have added a NPOV tag to the Randa Kassis page as it still looks heavily promotional. Psychloppos (talk) 19:35, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
- I don't mind mentioning this, as long as it is duly sourced and does not make the page look like a promotional piece. What we must also mention, however, is that Randa Kassis' ties to Russia have been controversial and widely reported by the media. Psychloppos (talk) 12:54, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
Hello, regarding the edits on Carolina Amesty
I disagree with the edits made to the Carolina Amesty article. I have noticed that a user is adding information with a negative bias against Carolina Amesty instead of maintaining an objective and neutral approach. For my part, I added and removed information based on the official report. However, the Orlando Sentinel, a source that has maintained a critical stance towards Amesty and published a series of negative articles, has been used as a reference. To avoid conflicts, I will not undo any further edits, as I believe this is the appropriate space to resolve disputes between users. I prefer to wait for an impartial third party to review and determine the best version of the article. It is important to be cautious with sensationalist sources. If the information were accurate, it would be appropriate to include it, but this is not the case. I recommend reading the official report to ensure a more objective approach. Bilonio (talk) 15:32, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
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