| Revision as of 18:33, 8 November 2024 editContiNuziali (talk | contribs)11 edits →Some irrelevant information in main section.: new sectionTags: Mobile edit Mobile web edit New topic← Previous edit |
Latest revision as of 17:14, 18 November 2024 edit undoLowercase sigmabot III (talk | contribs)Bots, Template editors2,293,067 editsm Archiving 1 discussion(s) to Talk:Antisemitic trope/Archive 3) (bot |
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== Article as catalogue == |
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This article was originally an overview of prominent antisemitic canards with attention to their origin, most prominent usage, and refutations/explanations of why the particilar trope is a canard (ie why the claim is false). However it is becoming an exhaustive catalogue of each and every occasion in which the trope has been used. This makes the article excessively long and unwieldy. I think a lot of the incidents listed can be moved to ] or to the main article on the individual trope. ] (]) 15:27, 5 October 2024 (UTC) |
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:+1 ] (]) 04:49, 7 October 2024 (UTC) |
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:Most of the example incidents did not happen in contemporary United States but Europe in the past. ] (]) 22:36, 7 October 2024 (UTC) |
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::The point remains the same, *this* article should not be a list or depository of every instance of every trope. It makes the article unwieldy and detracts from the actual purpose which is to explain what each canard is. ] (]) 23:41, 7 October 2024 (UTC) |
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:::Here to reiterate the sentiment of Wellington Bay. While we can use prominent examples to aid the reader understanding some of the tropes, these should be kept to as few as necessary, which have high quality secondary sources detailing them as specific examples of the trope in question. -- ] (]) 19:34, 8 October 2024 (UTC) |
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== Citations MUST support the text they are used to reference == |
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{{ping|User:Steven1991}} this is a recurring issue across edits on multiple articles. As an example in this article you added Becker (2020), Hersh & Royden (2022), Goldberg (2023), and Steinacher (2023) to the article stating that they supported the sentence {{tqq|The ZOG lie is peddled by Neo-Nazis, White nationalists}}. These references were taken from my addition of them to the article ], where they were used to correctly support the statement that from the early 2010s there has been a rise in antisemitism in the US. NONE of these articles discuss Neo-nazis and their associated ilk pushing the myth of ZOG. This is not the only case of you making this mistake in this article. Please, in future check the references you're adding to make sure they actually support the text. -- ] (]) 19:21, 8 October 2024 (UTC) |
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:I am sorry for that. Thank you for your reminder. ] (]) 19:39, 8 October 2024 (UTC) |
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::@] Less than you add a bunch of sources that DO NOT say anything about the sentence you use them for. -- ] (]) 07:51, 9 October 2024 (UTC) |
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:::@] Thank you for adding the white genocide section, but again, most of the sources you included do not support the text you used them for. -- ] (]) 18:25, 12 October 2024 (UTC) |
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::::Thank you for your notice. Would you mind helping me remove the faulty ones? I will try my best looking for more directly relevant references after dinner. ] (]) 18:29, 12 October 2024 (UTC) |
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== This article's treatment of the BHI == |
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It's odd to me that this article creates an entirely different impression of the the BHI movement, and that I was in less than minute without explanation when trying to do a minor course correction, which, as you can see, was properly sourced and provided a more accurate description of that the SPLC has actually concluded regarding the BHI. Whatever we may think of their ideas, this article seems to paint them as a single monolithic organization that hates Jews and advocates violence against them, when the actual sources do not say this. ] ] 20:30, 8 October 2024 (UTC) |
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:Our article on ] quotes the ADL saying "Some, but not all, are outspoken anti-Semites and racists."<ref name="ADL">{{cite web |url=https://www.adl.org/resources/backgrounders/black-hebrew-israelites |title=Black Hebrew Israelites |publisher=ADL |access-date=December 15, 2019}}</ref> and also that "the SPLC has...clarified that they now use the term 'Radical Hebrew Israelite' to distinguish between extremist and non-extremist sects and to acknowledge that some Hebrew Israelites are non-Black".<ref>{{cite web|url=https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/group/radical-hebrew-israelites |title=Radical Hebrew Israelites |publisher=SPLC |accessdate=2023-03-04}}</ref> While there certainly are BHI groups that are antisemitic, there are also BHI groups that are not and the SPLC now says that "most Hebrew Israelites are neither explicitly racist nor ] and do not advocate violence"<ref name=Ready>{{cite web |url=https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/intelligence-report/2008/racist-black-hebrew-israelites-becoming-more-militant |title=Racist Black Hebrew Israelites Becoming More Militant |access-date=November 5, 2016 |date=Fall 2008 |work=Intelligence Report |publisher=Southern Poverty Law Center}}</ref> and the ones that are antisemitic and violent are an "extremist fringe". The Antisemitic trope article should not suggest or imply that BHI is ipso facto antisemitic or even that most BHI are such but make the same distinction that the Southern Poverty Law Center now makes. ] (]) 21:17, 8 October 2024 (UTC) |
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::Per ], SPLC should be attributed as ], and not stated in wikivoice. ''']'''<span style="border:2px solid #073642;background:rgb(255,156,0);background:linear-gradient(90deg, rgba(255,156,0,1) 0%, rgba(147,0,255,1) 45%, rgba(4,123,134,1) 87%);">]</span> 21:23, 8 October 2024 (UTC) |
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:::While that is true, I don't think Wellington was saying otherwise ''(correct me if I'm wrong)''. More that this article should present a more nuanced position on the subject, ''similar'' to how SPLC does, though obviously not fully reliant on it. ] (]) 21:36, 8 October 2024 (UTC) |
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::::Sorry, wasn't trying to imply Wellington Bay said not to attribute SPLC, but in Steven1991's revert of JSS original edit, it appears to change attributing the SPLC to not attributing them. I think we should rely on the many reliable sources that aren't advocacy groups like ADL or SPLC. Such as ''']'''<span style="border:2px solid #073642;background:rgb(255,156,0);background:linear-gradient(90deg, rgba(255,156,0,1) 0%, rgba(147,0,255,1) 45%, rgba(4,123,134,1) 87%);">]</span> 21:41, 8 October 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::Ah ok, just wanted to clarify. <del>However, it appears that in JSS' original edit that they were the one adding attribution & the following revert removed it. ''(If that was what you were saying & I simply misunderstood, ignore this further attempt at clarification)''</del> |
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:::::Regardless, that seems like a good source fit for purpose. ] (]) 21:52, 8 October 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::Yes, you are right. It appears JSS was adding attribution and Steven1991 removing it - I got that backwards initially. That is my mistake. I think it's reasonable to say that BHI are closely associated with antisemitic ideas, such as calling Jews the synagogue of Satan, blacks are the true Jews and modern Jews are the white European evil, or control the media, government, and other antisemitic tropes. That is substantiated in the above book and in other sources. So while per RSP I agree with the attribution of SPLC, we should also do some proper source research of RS, and portray the antisemitic tropes inasmuch as they exist in BHI - that's not painting BHI as a monolith or claiming all groups are malevolent. We need to summon our nuance. ''']'''<span style="border:2px solid #073642;background:rgb(255,156,0);background:linear-gradient(90deg, rgba(255,156,0,1) 0%, rgba(147,0,255,1) 45%, rgba(4,123,134,1) 87%);">]</span> 22:05, 8 October 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::::The wording has been changed. I realised that it happened because I was editing the section at the same time as JSS. ] (]) 01:11, 10 October 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::::To be clear, I'm certainly not defending the BHI, my interest is solely in ]. To that end I have made a few light changes in the wording of the section and also removed reference to the ] as a supposed example of BHI terrorism. The person who committed that attack was clearly deeply antisemitic and interested in BHI teachings,but he was also found incompetent to stand trial due to mental illness, not once but three times, and I'm not seeing any suggestion that any BHI group or sect was directly involved in planning or encouraging the attack. ] ] 18:22, 10 October 2024 (UTC) |
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{{reflist-talk}} |
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== Tropes among American far right == |
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I notice that the “White genocide conspiracy theory” hasn’t been included, despite it being frequently promoted by American far-right figures on Twitter/podcasts. Even Elon Musk was once accused of endorsing such a theory. Should it be included as well? ] (]) 15:49, 9 October 2024 (UTC) |
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:] is certainly a deeply antisemitic theory with no basis in reality, so it does seem like it should be included, or at least linked to. ] ] 18:28, 10 October 2024 (UTC) |
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::Agreed ''']'''<span style="border:2px solid #073642;background:rgb(255,156,0);background:linear-gradient(90deg, rgba(255,156,0,1) 0%, rgba(147,0,255,1) 45%, rgba(4,123,134,1) 87%);">]</span> 18:36, 10 October 2024 (UTC) |
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:There are plenty of sources that cover the antisemitic aspects of the ridiculous conspiracy, so should be easy to add to the article. -- ] (]) 16:12, 11 October 2024 (UTC) |
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:: It looks like it has already been included and for what it is worth, I agree. ] (]) 18:26, 15 October 2024 (UTC) |
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:::You are welcome! ] (]) 04:33, 18 October 2024 (UTC) |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 18 October 2024 == |
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{{edit semi-protected|Antisemitic trope|answered=yes}} |
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Add oxford comma. ] (]) 05:16, 18 October 2024 (UTC) |
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:] '''Not done''': it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a ] and provide a ] if appropriate.<!-- Template:ESp --> Where? also, see ] ] (]) 05:50, 18 October 2024 (UTC) |
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:I do not understand what edits you would like to make. Could you elaborate? ] (]) 22:16, 18 October 2024 (UTC) |
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::See ANI for a present explanation of this editor's serial stubbornness and habits like these. I wouldn't bother. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff"> ‥ </span>]</span> 23:21, 18 October 2024 (UTC) |
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== Various "BOLD" changes. == |
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== Various "BOLD" changes. == |
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Also, the cited source isn't of a good enough quality. Better sources should be found. ] (]) 18:33, 8 November 2024 (UTC) |
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Also, the cited source isn't of a good enough quality. Better sources should be found. ] (]) 18:33, 8 November 2024 (UTC) |
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== Antisemitism did not cause WWII == |
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It's a bit disconcerting to read in the main section that "These tropes fatefully formed Adolf Hitler's worldview, caused WWII". Of course antisemitism was the base for the Holocaust but and instrumental for the rise of the Nazi party but nobody has ever argued that it ''caused'' WWII. ] (]) 00:13, 9 November 2024 (UTC) |
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:Doctrines of Lebensraum and Slavic Untermenschen, and a desire to get revenge on the French were most important in determining Hitler's aggressive policies which led to war. Once the war started, antisemitism had a big influence on how conquered territories were governed. ] (]) 13:35, 9 November 2024 (UTC) |
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::What you said isn't expressed by the passage at all though and still, I don't think any historian ever claimed that "these tropes causes WWII". I'd say it's even hard to argue that they caused ''in part'' WWII. ] (]) 17:33, 9 November 2024 (UTC) |
Why isn’t this entry under Trope, Libel, Canard, or even Anti-semitism? Surely it is not the sole example of any of the above. GianniBGood (talk) 19:11, 3 November 2024 (UTC)
The last lines of the main section read: "The most recent example is the denial or trivialization of the October 7 massacres, with the victims overwhelmingly Jewish, including several Holocaust survivors."
I would change this to: "The most recent example is the denial or trivialization of the October 7 massacres, with the victims overwhelmingly Jewish."
Indeed, the fact that many victims were Holocaust survivors is irrelevant to the denial or trivialisation of October 7th atrocities.
It's a bit disconcerting to read in the main section that "These tropes fatefully formed Adolf Hitler's worldview, caused WWII". Of course antisemitism was the base for the Holocaust but and instrumental for the rise of the Nazi party but nobody has ever argued that it caused WWII. ContiNuziali (talk) 00:13, 9 November 2024 (UTC)
