| Revision as of 11:19, 15 November 2024 editEzra Ben Yosef (talk | contribs)201 edits →Judeo-Ge'ez: ReplyTag: Reply← Previous edit | Latest revision as of 17:09, 21 November 2024 edit undoTamzin (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Administrators68,765 edits →Judeo-Ge'ez: Closed as delete (XFDcloser) | ||
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| :''The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. <span style="color:var(--color-error, red);">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's ] or in a ]). No further edits should be made to this page.'' | |||
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| The result was '''delete'''__EXPECTED_UNCONNECTED_PAGE__. <span style="font-family:courier"> -- ]</span><sup class="nowrap">[]]</sup> <small>(])</small> 17:09, 21 November 2024 (UTC) | |||
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| <noinclude>{{AFD help}}</noinclude> | <noinclude>{{AFD help}}</noinclude> | ||
| :{{la|1=Judeo-Ge'ez}} – (<includeonly>]</includeonly><noinclude>]</noinclude> | ]) | :{{la|1=Judeo-Ge'ez}} – (<includeonly>]</includeonly><noinclude>]</noinclude> | ]) | ||
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| *:# https://er.ceres.rub.de/index.php/ER/article/view/865 | *:# https://er.ceres.rub.de/index.php/ER/article/view/865 | ||
| *:] (]) 11:16, 15 November 2024 (UTC) | *:] (]) 11:16, 15 November 2024 (UTC) | ||
| :::Yes, we read those. They don’t support what you are saying. Kaplan for example uses the term Agaw dialect on page 103 (and states outright that scholarship almost unanimously has concluded the Beta Israel never spoke or possessed a knowledge of Hebrew); basically saying exactly the opposite of what you are claiming here. None of them use the term “Judeo-Ge'ez“. FYI, the whole point of Kaplan’s paper is that the ] people never had access to the Hebrew literature but rather derived their literature from Christian documents that were brought into the region. (Read the conclusion) It’s funny that you are putting Kaplan forward as supporting an uninterrupted Hebraic tradition when fundamentally his paper is about dismissing that entirely as false.] (]) 11:20, 15 November 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *'''delete''' no sources. The references are fake. --] ] | *'''delete''' no sources. The references are fake. --] ] | ||
| *'''Delete''' as ]. I wouldn't call it "fake" so much as an original framing. ] is a real people group and they did speak ] with their own dialect. The first source is pretty clear to call it the "Agaw dialect" and doesn't use the term "Judeo-Ge'ez". |
*'''Delete''' as ]. I wouldn't call it "fake" so much as an original framing. ] is a real people group and they did speak ] with their own dialect. The first source is pretty clear to call it the "Agaw dialect" and doesn't use the term "Judeo-Ge'ez". It’s looks like this article is re-naming the Agaw dialect "Judeo-Ge'ez" without any supporting sources for that re-naming. But, it isn't all that odd of a re-naming considering the ] were Ethiopian Jews who had their own dialect of Ethiopian speech.] (]) 21:56, 14 November 2024 (UTC) | ||
| *: I didnt say sources are fake. I say ''refs'' are fake, because sources cited do not support article text. --] ] 22:11, 14 November 2024 (UTC) | *: I didnt say sources are fake. I say ''refs'' are fake, because sources cited do not support article text. --] ] 22:11, 14 November 2024 (UTC) | ||
| *:Agaw: not exactly so: our ] article says that ''"have practiced what some described as a “Hebraic religion”, though some also practiced Ethiopian Orthodoxy, and many were Beta Israel Jews"'', i.e., they should not be conflated. --] ] 22:09, 14 November 2024 (UTC) | *:Agaw: not exactly so: our ] article says that ''"have practiced what some described as a “Hebraic religion”, though some also practiced Ethiopian Orthodoxy, and many were Beta Israel Jews"'', i.e., they should not be conflated. --] ] 22:09, 14 November 2024 (UTC) | ||
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| :::::::Um… that is exactly what I said, but in different words.] (]) 10:36, 15 November 2024 (UTC) | :::::::Um… that is exactly what I said, but in different words.] (]) 10:36, 15 November 2024 (UTC) | ||
| :::::::You are a ] ] (]) 11:19, 15 November 2024 (UTC) | :::::::You are a ] ] (]) 11:19, 15 November 2024 (UTC) | ||
| ::::::::And you are a liar peddling a ] at worse or non-published ] theory at best. Misrepresenting sources and using citations that don’t support the content is unethical.] (]) 11:26, 15 November 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :'''Delete''' - ], plain and simple. ] (]) 16:36, 15 November 2024 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Comment'''. If there are no sources that support the name, then it can't be used. That's pretty elementary wikicraft. ]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 05:15, 16 November 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Delete''' doesn't seem to be the correct name or information and misquotes sources; could be a hoax of sorts. ''']'''<span style="border:2px solid #073642;background:rgb(255,156,0);background:linear-gradient(90deg, rgba(255,156,0,1) 0%, rgba(147,0,255,1) 45%, rgba(4,123,134,1) 87%);">]</span> 18:56, 20 November 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Delete:''' per WP:NFT and WP:OR, never mind Ezra Ben Yosef's other conduct, all of which just earned him a two week block. As mentioned in the ANI complaint cited above, people are going to have to go through his editing history to see what other sources he misrepresented and facts he just made up. ] 14:03, 21 November 2024 (UTC) | |||
| {{clear}} | |||
| :''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's ] or in a ]). No further edits should be made to this page.''<!--Template:Afd bottom--></div> | |||
Latest revision as of 17:09, 21 November 2024
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. -- Tamzin (they|xe) 17:09, 21 November 2024 (UTC)
Judeo-Ge'ez
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Term does simply not exist.--Hellenyck (talk) 16:55, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Language-related deletion discussions. Spiderone 18:02, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
- Don't delete There's clear proof that this language is different to Ge'ez and can be classified as a dialect, in a lot of aspect for example as they have different words compared to guess just for example as "Nisan", "Ab", "Lul" and "T'heshvan" and other words such as Hell, idol, Easter, purification, and alms, are of Hebrew origin . which clearly derives from a Herbraic source and isn't present for other Ge'ez speakers but just for the beta Israel, now in recent years the influence of Judeo Ge'ez hasn't been the same as it once was due to conflicts, etc. Also for the argument that this should be rented in "Agaw" languages also doesn't make sense as there as the language derives from a South Semitic language, and not a Cushitic language. The Hebrew in the Ge'ez of the Beta Israel is clear and the deletation of this page only furthers Wikipedias Eurocentric and Race biased perogrative. Sources supporting this point.
- A. H. M. Jones and Elizabeth Monroe, A History of Ethiopia (Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1935), p. 40.
- Kaplan, Steven (2009). ""The Literature of the Beta Israel (Falasha): A Survey of a Biblical-Hebraic Tradition"".
- Gottheil, Richard (2022). "ELDAD BEN MAHLI HA-DANI".
- https://er.ceres.rub.de/index.php/ER/article/view/865
- Ezra Ben Yosef (talk) 11:16, 15 November 2024 (UTC)
- Don't delete There's clear proof that this language is different to Ge'ez and can be classified as a dialect, in a lot of aspect for example as they have different words compared to guess just for example as "Nisan", "Ab", "Lul" and "T'heshvan" and other words such as Hell, idol, Easter, purification, and alms, are of Hebrew origin . which clearly derives from a Herbraic source and isn't present for other Ge'ez speakers but just for the beta Israel, now in recent years the influence of Judeo Ge'ez hasn't been the same as it once was due to conflicts, etc. Also for the argument that this should be rented in "Agaw" languages also doesn't make sense as there as the language derives from a South Semitic language, and not a Cushitic language. The Hebrew in the Ge'ez of the Beta Israel is clear and the deletation of this page only furthers Wikipedias Eurocentric and Race biased perogrative. Sources supporting this point.
- Yes, we read those. They don’t support what you are saying. Kaplan for example uses the term Agaw dialect on page 103 (and states outright that scholarship almost unanimously has concluded the Beta Israel never spoke or possessed a knowledge of Hebrew); basically saying exactly the opposite of what you are claiming here. None of them use the term “Judeo-Ge'ez“. FYI, the whole point of Kaplan’s paper is that the Beta Israel people never had access to the Hebrew literature but rather derived their literature from Christian documents that were brought into the region. (Read the conclusion) It’s funny that you are putting Kaplan forward as supporting an uninterrupted Hebraic tradition when fundamentally his paper is about dismissing that entirely as false.4meter4 (talk) 11:20, 15 November 2024 (UTC)
- Delete as WP:Original research. I wouldn't call it "fake" so much as an original framing. Beta Israel is a real people group and they did speak Ge'ez with their own dialect. The first source is pretty clear to call it the "Agaw dialect" and doesn't use the term "Judeo-Ge'ez". It’s looks like this article is re-naming the Agaw dialect "Judeo-Ge'ez" without any supporting sources for that re-naming. But, it isn't all that odd of a re-naming considering the Agaw people were Ethiopian Jews who had their own dialect of Ethiopian speech.4meter4 (talk) 21:56, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
- I didnt say sources are fake. I say refs are fake, because sources cited do not support article text. --Altenmann >talk 22:11, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
- Agaw: not exactly so: our Agaw people article says that "have practiced what some described as a “Hebraic religion”, though some also practiced Ethiopian Orthodoxy, and many were Beta Israel Jews", i.e., they should not be conflated. --Altenmann >talk 22:09, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
- @Altenmann That could be, I'm not a subject matter expert in this area. I'm just pointing out that the source in question was describing the Beta Israel people as speaking the "Agaw dialect" which impacted the Ge'ez language writings extant to that culture. The article in question seems to be re-naming this dialect Judeo-Ge'ez rather than calling it the Agaw dialect as in the cited source. Hence why I am calling it WP:OR. The ins and outs of language within the Ethiopian Jewish culture may be more complex than what that single source presented, and I'm sure the Agaw people may have been more religiously diverse and that is fine. FYI refs = sources. You meant citations. Hence my confusion. 4meter4 (talk) 22:32, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
- Please see Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Ezra_Ben_Yosef for expert's opinion (as much as wikipedians are experts :-)) on the issue. --Altenmann >talk 01:14, 15 November 2024 (UTC)
You meant citations
- Well, Misplaced Pages thinks refs = citations :-) and technically speaking sources are referents, i.e., things you are referring to. --Altenmann >talk 02:15, 15 November 2024 (UTC)- True. We tend to use terms somewhat interchangeably on wikipedia. :-) Technically references are works listed at the end of an article outside of a footnote format (see https://www.cwauthors.com/article/key-differences-between-a-citation-and-a-reference ). Misplaced Pages's somewhat unusual referencing style makes it possible to blend the two by putting the entire reference inside an embedded footnote. This is different than the standard referencing format in academic publishing, which is why I prefer Template:Sfn citations as they mirror academic publication styles more closely. In my mind I think of "references" as the "complete source information" (such as a bibliography or works cited list) and the citation as stating where certain content came from within that source. When I hear "false reference" it makes me think the entire source is made up, where as if I hear "false citation" I would think someone is not being truthful about where the content came from by misrepresenting the cited source. But that's just me. Best.4meter4 (talk) 02:37, 15 November 2024 (UTC)
- Your explanation makes sense, thanks. --Altenmann >talk 02:43, 15 November 2024 (UTC)
- You are overlooking the essential point: Judaeo-Ge'ez (a language that the user believes to be descended from Hebrew) does not exist and has never existed. The term was simply invented by the user (WP:NOR).--Hellenyck (talk) 07:09, 15 November 2024 (UTC)
- Um… that is exactly what I said, but in different words.4meter4 (talk) 10:36, 15 November 2024 (UTC)
- You are a Eurocentric Ezra Ben Yosef (talk) 11:19, 15 November 2024 (UTC)
- And you are a liar peddling a WP:HOAX at worse or non-published WP:FRINGE theory at best. Misrepresenting sources and using citations that don’t support the content is unethical.4meter4 (talk) 11:26, 15 November 2024 (UTC)
- True. We tend to use terms somewhat interchangeably on wikipedia. :-) Technically references are works listed at the end of an article outside of a footnote format (see https://www.cwauthors.com/article/key-differences-between-a-citation-and-a-reference ). Misplaced Pages's somewhat unusual referencing style makes it possible to blend the two by putting the entire reference inside an embedded footnote. This is different than the standard referencing format in academic publishing, which is why I prefer Template:Sfn citations as they mirror academic publication styles more closely. In my mind I think of "references" as the "complete source information" (such as a bibliography or works cited list) and the citation as stating where certain content came from within that source. When I hear "false reference" it makes me think the entire source is made up, where as if I hear "false citation" I would think someone is not being truthful about where the content came from by misrepresenting the cited source. But that's just me. Best.4meter4 (talk) 02:37, 15 November 2024 (UTC)
- @Altenmann That could be, I'm not a subject matter expert in this area. I'm just pointing out that the source in question was describing the Beta Israel people as speaking the "Agaw dialect" which impacted the Ge'ez language writings extant to that culture. The article in question seems to be re-naming this dialect Judeo-Ge'ez rather than calling it the Agaw dialect as in the cited source. Hence why I am calling it WP:OR. The ins and outs of language within the Ethiopian Jewish culture may be more complex than what that single source presented, and I'm sure the Agaw people may have been more religiously diverse and that is fine. FYI refs = sources. You meant citations. Hence my confusion. 4meter4 (talk) 22:32, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
- Delete - WP:OR, plain and simple. Sinclairian (talk) 16:36, 15 November 2024 (UTC)
- Comment. If there are no sources that support the name, then it can't be used. That's pretty elementary wikicraft. Zero 05:15, 16 November 2024 (UTC)
- Delete doesn't seem to be the correct name or information and misquotes sources; could be a hoax of sorts. Andre🚐 18:56, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
- Delete: per WP:NFT and WP:OR, never mind Ezra Ben Yosef's other conduct, all of which just earned him a two week block. As mentioned in the ANI complaint cited above, people are going to have to go through his editing history to see what other sources he misrepresented and facts he just made up. Ravenswing 14:03, 21 November 2024 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.