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Latest revision as of 13:31, 22 December 2024

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Greece article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

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This article is written in British English with Oxford spelling (colour, realize, organization, analyse; note that -ize is used instead of -ise) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.

Greece was nominated as a Geography and places good article, but it did not meet the good article criteria at the time (October 3, 2017). There are suggestions on the review page for improving the article. If you can improve it, please do; it may then be renominated.

A fact from this article was featured on Misplaced Pages's Main Page in the On this day section on 12 dates. March 25, 2005, March 25, 2006, March 25, 2007, March 25, 2008, March 25, 2009, March 25, 2010, March 25, 2011, March 25, 2012, March 25, 2013, March 25, 2015, March 25, 2016, and March 25, 2017

This  level-4 vital article is rated B-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Greece: Byzantine Top‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Greece, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Greek history on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.GreeceWikipedia:WikiProject GreeceTemplate:WikiProject GreeceGreek Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale. This article is supported by the Byzantine world task force. Countries This article is within the scope of WikiProject Countries, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of countries on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.CountriesWikipedia:WikiProject CountriesTemplate:WikiProject Countriescountry WikiProject Countries to-do list: edit history watch purge Here are some tasks awaiting attention: Article requests : Check out the article alerts; see if anything catches your fancy. Cleanup : clean-up listing for Countries Stubs : de-stub articles in Category:Stubs by region. Other : add {{WPCountries}} to talk pages of related articles, and assess.

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Section sizes Section size for Greece (58 sections) Section name Byte count Section total (Top) 15,537 15,537 Name 1,726 1,726 History 42 74,876 Prehistory and Aegean civilisations 5,569 5,569 Ancient Greece 10,344 10,344 Roman province (146 BC – 4th century AD) 6,918 6,918 Medieval period (4th–15th century) 10,681 10,681 Venetian possessions and Ottoman rule (15th century – 1821) 4,895 4,895 Modern nation-state 61 36,427 Greek War of Independence (1821–1832) 5,147 5,147 Kingdom of Greece 10,105 10,105 Expansion, disaster, and reconstruction 7,564 7,564 Dictatorship, World War II, and reconstruction 6,469 6,469 Third Hellenic Republic 7,081 7,081 Geography 9,707 20,116 Islands 1,533 1,533 Climate 3,722 3,722 Biodiversity 5,154 5,154 Politics 4,922 28,453 Political parties 5,596 5,596 Foreign relations 8,084 8,084 Military 3,055 3,055 Law and justice 883 883 Administrative divisions 5,913 5,913 Economy 13,021 57,818 Debt crisis (2010–2018) 16,353 16,353 Agriculture 2,216 2,216 Energy 2,651 2,651 Maritime 4,581 4,581 Tourism 5,742 5,742 Transport 4,946 4,946 Telecommunications 2,961 2,961 Science and technology 5,347 5,347 Demographics 3,293 37,386 Cities 1,746 1,746 Religion 11,577 11,577 Languages 6,193 6,193 Migration 5,746 5,746 Education 4,742 4,742 Healthcare system 4,089 4,089 Culture 2,874 45,096 Visual arts 3,702 3,702 Architecture 4,063 4,063 Theatre 3,026 3,026 Literature 3,833 3,833 Philosophy 3,182 3,182 Music and dances 7,645 7,645 Cuisine 2,864 2,864 Cinema 5,816 5,816 Sports 5,653 5,653 Public holidays and festivals 2,438 2,438 See also 155 155 Notes 50 50 References 17 10,480 Citations 36 36 Bibliography 9,868 9,868 Further reading 559 559 External links 1,129 1,129 Total 292,822 292,822

Religion

The part in the infobox talking about religion is largely outdated with more recen studies depicting a different attitude towards religion.

https://www.kathimerini.gr/society/562979893/dimoskopisi-dianeosis-statheri-axia-i-thriskeia-kai-nea-agonia-gia-to-klima/

This study says that 18.9% of the population doesnt believe in religion.

While in this study "The U.S. government estimates the total population at 10.5 million (midyear 2022). According to research polls, 81 to 90 percent of the population identifies as Greek Orthodox, 4 to 15 percent as atheist, and 2 percent as Muslim."

https://www.state.gov/reports/2022-report-on-international-religious-freedom/greece/ Takis S1 (talk) 14:48, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Establishment

Why doesn't Greece on Misplaced Pages have establishment dates before 1830? In other countries you have establishment dates much earlier than the modern establishment of the state, such as Turkey, Egypt, Bulgaria, etc. There are many examples of the establishment of a Greek state in the past such as the Union of Corinth, the Union of Deilos, the Macedonian empire, and the later Byzantine empire. There is even a Misplaced Pages page that refers to it under the title "Greek Empire"

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/Greek_Empire Ypoferomai (talk) 20:53, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

That's been repeatedly debated before, most recently at Talk:Greece/Archive_17#Why arent ancient/medieval Greek Kingdoms like the Macedonian Empire, Byzantine Empire, Myceneans, Minoans, Cycladics, Greek City States and so on included in the „Establishment“ part of the info box? and earlier at Talk:Greece/Archive_16#Inclusion of the League of Corinth in the infobox. The short answer is: there was never any state in history before 1830 that was called Greece, had any kind of historical continuity with the present-day state, or was even just roughly coextensive geographically with it. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:19, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

I agree that obviously these ancient states or entities couldn't really be added here as early stages of the modern Hellenic Republic, since, despite the fact they had a perception of "Greece", they did not exactly form one unified Greek state that developed into modern Greece. Same thing for Italy, where the establisment section doesn't include Rome. On the other hand, I used to think that this section was based primarily on continuity; while countries like France, the UK, Turkey etc. have a direct and unborken continuity with their previous empires, that's not the case with some other countries. One example is Egypt, where the section starts from the 4th millenium BC; can we actually claim that the modern Arab Republic of Egypt is a continuation of the ancient Egyptian kingdoms, at least in any meaningful way? I guess what counts here as "continuity" is the very name "Egypt" (?). But again, ancient Egypt ceased to exist as a state when it fell to the Romans in 31 BC (which is not mentioned there), well before the territory got conquered by the Arabs. Generally, these infoboxes can be very tricky. Piccco (talk) 10:27, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

Albania, for example, fell into the hands of the Ottomans. Nevertheless, the kingdom of Arbanon is mentioned. The same is happening with Bulgaria. I think the same should be happening with Greece since there were many cases of Greek empires and alliances in the Greek peninsula such as the Corinthian league and the Macedonian empire. :) Ypoferomai (talk) 10:55, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

The Albania article is a pretty bad example to follow, to my mind (Please don't fall into the trap of assuming that just because some other article does something a certain way, we should do it the same way in another – there are doubtless a lot of articles where things have gone wrong.) For Bulgaria (as for Egypt, Poland and a couple others), I've gone on record on an earlier occasion saying that I can at least marginally see a case for including them, given that they were clearly historical states that shared at least the name and the approximate territory, if not temporal continuity, with the present ones. Albania doesn't have that: there were historical states in what is now Albania, and inhabited/ruled by Albanians, but there was never a historical state of "Albania". Greece doesn't have it either. Just because there were certain states that were run by Greeks, or situated in what is now Greece, doesn't make these states "Greece". (Incidentally, the Greek Empire page you linked to is an utter mess and shouldn't exist.) Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:08, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

I see your point regarding the other Balkan countries. I would like to kindly mention, however, that I still don't think it would be appropriate for anciet states or entities (like alliances etc.) to be used in the establishment section of the infobox of the modern Hellenic republic for the reasons that were given above. Piccco (talk) 11:09, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

The Corinthian League was also called the Hellenic league. It was founded by Philip of Macedonia and was the predecessor of the Macedonian empire. Macedoniam empire also is considered as an example of Greek unification. Also the Byzantine empire was occasionally referred to by others as the Greeks.

Georgia (the country) has a reference to the ancient kingdoms of Iberia and Colchis even though it was not a unified state.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/League_of_Corinth Ypoferomai (talk) 11:41, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

You are right for pointing this out; that is yet another example of bad usage of the establishment section in a country infobox. Piccco (talk) 13:04, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

I would also like to point out that the various polities that you mentioned above are actually not ignored in the article, but are instead mentioned in the history section, which is the right place for all of them to be properly discussed. Among the other reasons given above, the sheer complexity of the various types of ancient Greek polities and other entities is impossible to be accurately represented in the overly simplistic infobox. Piccco (talk) 14:23, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

Ypoferomai (talk) 15:11, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Greece#c-Ypoferomai-20240909151100-Piccco-20240909142300 Ypoferomai (talk) 15:12, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

Sorry something happened with wikipedia and I can't send a message.

I would also to say.

The Corinthian league was also called the Greek league and was a federation, not just an alliance. It had a way of organization just like the Mongolian Xiongnu confederation.

If you look at the wikipedia page for Mongolia it mentions this state as an earlier form of establishment of Mongolia.

Also, the Macedonian empire is an example of the unification of the Greeks as it is actually stated on the page of history. Ypoferomai (talk) 15:18, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

I don't exactly disagree, but this is a bit too simplistic and not fitting for this infobox. I understand that you are an inexperienced user, so this might make sense to you, especially after seeing all these terribly wrong infoboxes in other countries. I'm not sure, but I believe Mongolia might be another example of bad infobox; it can't really be used for comparison. Piccco (talk) 10:44, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Are you an experienced user? Then what has Misplaced Pages really come to? The official name of Greece is not "Greece" it is the Hellenic Republic or Hellas. For the sake of combating misinformation it can be mentioned that all previous polities of Greece including the Corinthian league ,Athens, Sparta, the Macedonian Empire callled themselves Hellenes. 2A02:678:481:2100:5C8:4881:44EE:6BF (talk) 21:30, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

Cities

The list of Greek cities shows Piraeus, which, however, as mentioned in the relevant article, belongs to the urban area of Athens. So I think that either Piraeus should be removed from the list of cities in the article, or that the other cities - municipalities that belong to Athens should be added. Νίκος Αστέρης (talk) 13:16, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

Changes in the text

Yesterday i made a change there that it was saying that Greece is considered the birthplace of western civilization. I wrote that Greece is the birthplace of western civilization. Also at the western civilization you have a wrong link that doesnt lead to the page of western civilization but leads to the western culture instead so i put the correct link. You changed again these things that i wrote. Why you dont let other members to edit the pages?Everyone can edit in wikipedia. And the changes that i made are both correct. Put again the changes that i made. Also in the paragraph in the economy page that you write the numbers of the gdp and gdp per capita are still the old ones while at the box in the first page are the new ones. You have to change them in the paragraph. Alikakii (talk) 03:59, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages content is determined by reliable sources and consensus, which you don't seem to understand. If others disagree with changes you've made, you need to make a case for your changes on the article talk pages and get a consensus; see WP:BRD. OhNoitsJamie 14:31, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

I told you that the western civilization has a wrong link on it! It leads to a wrong page you can just see it when you click it! Its not difficult! Also if you go to the economy page in the first paragraph you havent changed the numbers of gdp with the new ones like you did on the box in the introduction page! Why you just cant check them to see it?? You answer me without even check them! Alikakii (talk) 15:27, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

So to be clear you think Western civilization or Western culture don't explain things properly or you think the link should simply link History of Western civilization over the parent article that explains what the term means? You are aware that there is no section discussing Greece in the history article.Moxy🍁 00:57, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

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