Talk:Gender-critical feminism: Difference between revisions

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			1={{cite journal \|last1=Duffy \|first1=Sandra \|title=Postcolonial Dynamics in Pro- and Anti-Trans Activism in the United Kingdom and Ireland \|journal=Feminists@law \|date=2023 \|volume=12 \|issue=2 \|doi=10.22024/UniKent/03/fal.1086 \|doi-access=free \|issn=2046-9551}}
⚫	1={{Cite web \|date=2022-04-01 \|title=How the far-right is turning feminists into fascists {{!}} Xtra Magazine \|url=https://xtramagazine.com/power/far-right-feminist-fascist-220810 \|language=en-CA}}
			* {{cite journal \|last1=Morgan \|first1=Rebecca Jane \|title=Evangelicals, Feminists, and the 'Unlikely' Discursive Alliance at the Heart of British Transphobia \|journal=DiGeSt - Journal of Diversity and Gender Studies \|date=2023 \|volume=10 \|issue=2 \|pages=48–64 \|doi=10.21825/digest.85310 \|doi-access=free \|issn=2593-0281}}
			* {{cite book \|last1=Phipps \|first1=Alison \|author-link=Alison Phipps (sociologist) \|title=Me, Not You: The Trouble with Mainstream Feminism \|date=2020 \|publisher=Manchester University Press \|isbn=978-1-5261-4718-9 \|pages=133–159 \|jstor=j.ctvzgb6n6.10 \|edition=1st \|chapter=Feminists and the Far Right}}
		⚫	* {{Cite web \|date=2022-04-01 \|title=How the far-right is turning feminists into fascists {{!}} Xtra Magazine \|url=https://xtramagazine.com/power/far-right-feminist-fascist-220810 \|language=en-CA}}
	* {{Cite web \|last=Lorber \|first=Ben \|last2=Greenesmith \|first2=Heron \|date=2021-04-28 \|title=Antisemitism Meets Transphobia \|url=https://progressive.org/api/content/db4aec86-a82b-11eb-a9f4-1244d5f7c7c6/ \|website=Progressive.org \|language=en-us}}		* {{Cite web \|last=Lorber \|first=Ben \|last2=Greenesmith \|first2=Heron \|date=2021-04-28 \|title=Antisemitism Meets Transphobia \|url=https://progressive.org/api/content/db4aec86-a82b-11eb-a9f4-1244d5f7c7c6/ \|website=Progressive.org \|language=en-us}}
	* {{Cite thesis \|last=Braedyn Simon \|date=2021 \|title="IT ISN'T HATE TO SPEAK THE TRUTH": ANTI-TRANS (GENDER) POLITICS IN THE UK AND THE DEVELOPMENT OF THE GENDER CRITICAL FEMINIST MOVEMENT: a critical look into the colonial remnants of gender discourse \|url=http://rgdoi.net/10.13140/RG.2.2.35269.78565 \|language=en \|doi=10.13140/RG.2.2.35269.78565}} (see ])		* {{Cite thesis \|last=Braedyn Simon \|date=2021 \|title="IT ISN'T HATE TO SPEAK THE TRUTH": ANTI-TRANS (GENDER) POLITICS IN THE UK AND THE DEVELOPMENT OF THE GENDER CRITICAL FEMINIST MOVEMENT: a critical look into the colonial remnants of gender discourse \|url=http://rgdoi.net/10.13140/RG.2.2.35269.78565 \|language=en \|doi=10.13140/RG.2.2.35269.78565}} (see ])
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	* {{Cite journal \|last=Lee \|first=Hyun-Jae \|date=December 2020 \|title=A Critical Study of Identity Politics Based on the Category ‘Biological Woman’ in the Digital Era: How Young Korean Women Became Transgender Exclusive Radical Feminists \|journal=Journal of Asian Sociology \|volume=49 \|issue=4 \|pages=425–448 \|doi=10.21588/dns.2020.49.4.003}}		* {{Cite journal \|last=Lee \|first=Hyun-Jae \|date=December 2020 \|title=A Critical Study of Identity Politics Based on the Category ‘Biological Woman’ in the Digital Era: How Young Korean Women Became Transgender Exclusive Radical Feminists \|journal=Journal of Asian Sociology \|volume=49 \|issue=4 \|pages=425–448 \|doi=10.21588/dns.2020.49.4.003}}
	* {{Cite thesis \|last=Kim \|first=Gaeun \|date=2023 \|title=Epistemic violence: the counterhistory of the experiences and prevalence of anti-trans violence in South Korea \|url=https://rucore.libraries.rutgers.edu/rutgers-lib/71505 \|doi=10.7282/T3-183Q-F776}}		* {{Cite thesis \|last=Kim \|first=Gaeun \|date=2023 \|title=Epistemic violence: the counterhistory of the experiences and prevalence of anti-trans violence in South Korea \|url=https://rucore.libraries.rutgers.edu/rutgers-lib/71505 \|doi=10.7282/T3-183Q-F776}}
			* {{Cite journal \|last=Kim \|first=Jieun \|date=2024-07-02 \|title=A critical analysis of TERF politics in South Korea: The contradictory constructions of “Western feminism” and its legitimizing effects \|url=https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/12259276.2024.2379053 \|journal=Asian Journal of Women's Studies \|language=en \|volume=30 \|issue=3 \|pages=196–226 \|doi=10.1080/12259276.2024.2379053 \|issn=1225-9276}}
	* {{Cite journal \|issn=00101958 \|eissn=19452268 \|url=https://www.jstor.org/stable/27211377 \|last=McNamarah \|first=Chan Tov \|journal=Columbia Law Review \|number=3 \|pages=845-928 \|publisher=Columbia Law Review Association, Inc. \|title=Cis-Woman-Protective Arguments \|volume=123 \|year=2023}}		* {{Cite journal \|issn=00101958 \|eissn=19452268 \|url=https://www.jstor.org/stable/27211377 \|last=McNamarah \|first=Chan Tov \|journal=Columbia Law Review \|number=3 \|pages=845-928 \|publisher=Columbia Law Review Association, Inc. \|title=Cis-Woman-Protective Arguments \|volume=123 \|year=2023}}
	* {{Cite journal \|last=Yamada \|first=Hidenobu \|date=2022-08-01 \|title=GID as an Acceptable Minority; or, The Alliance between Moral Conservatives and “Gender Critical” Feminists in Japan \|url=https://doi.org/10.1215/23289252-9836162 \|journal=TSQ: Transgender Studies Quarterly \|volume=9 \|issue=3 \|pages=501–506 \|doi=10.1215/23289252-9836162 \|issn=2328-9252}}		* {{Cite journal \|last=Yamada \|first=Hidenobu \|date=2022-08-01 \|title=GID as an Acceptable Minority; or, The Alliance between Moral Conservatives and “Gender Critical” Feminists in Japan \|url=https://doi.org/10.1215/23289252-9836162 \|journal=TSQ: Transgender Studies Quarterly \|volume=9 \|issue=3 \|pages=501–506 \|doi=10.1215/23289252-9836162 \|issn=2328-9252}}
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	* {{Cite journal \|last=Kirey-Sitnikova \|first=Yana \|date=2024-07-10 \|title=“You should care by prohibiting all this obscenity”: a public policy analysis of the Russian law banning medical and legal transition for transgender people \|url=https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/1060586X.2024.2377933 \|journal=Post-Soviet Affairs \|language=en \|pages=1–20 \|doi=10.1080/1060586X.2024.2377933 \|doi-access=free \|issn=1060-586X}}		* {{Cite journal \|last=Kirey-Sitnikova \|first=Yana \|date=2024-07-10 \|title=“You should care by prohibiting all this obscenity”: a public policy analysis of the Russian law banning medical and legal transition for transgender people \|url=https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/1060586X.2024.2377933 \|journal=Post-Soviet Affairs \|language=en \|pages=1–20 \|doi=10.1080/1060586X.2024.2377933 \|doi-access=free \|issn=1060-586X}}
	* {{Cite journal \|last=Hotine \|first=Emily \|date=2021-08-12 \|year=2021 \|title=Biology, Society and Sex: Deconstructing anti-trans rhetoric and trans-exclusionary radical feminism \|url=https://journal.nds.ox.ac.uk/index.php/JNDS/article/download/176/79/1051 \|format=PDF \|department=Equality, Diversity, Inclusion \|journal=Journal of the Nuffield Department of Surgical Sciences \|volume=2 \|issue=3 \|doi=10.37707/jnds.v2i3}}		* {{Cite journal \|last=Hotine \|first=Emily \|date=2021-08-12 \|year=2021 \|title=Biology, Society and Sex: Deconstructing anti-trans rhetoric and trans-exclusionary radical feminism \|url=https://journal.nds.ox.ac.uk/index.php/JNDS/article/download/176/79/1051 \|format=PDF \|department=Equality, Diversity, Inclusion \|journal=Journal of the Nuffield Department of Surgical Sciences \|volume=2 \|issue=3 \|doi=10.37707/jnds.v2i3}}
			* {{Cite journal \|last=Ploch \|first=N. \|date=2024-11-19 \|title=A systematic review of TERF behaviour online in relation to sociopsychological group dynamics \|url=https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/09589236.2024.2431569 \|journal=Journal of Gender Studies \|language=en \|pages=1–14 \|doi=10.1080/09589236.2024.2431569 \|issn=0958-9236}}
	}}		}}
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			== Vaginism ==
	== An article with a similar scope? ==

	] ~~appears~~ to be ~~attempting~~ to ~~cover~~ ~~the~~ ~~same~~ ~~ground~~ as this ~~article,~~ ~~presenting~~ ~~gender-critical~~ ~~feminism~~ as ~~an anti-trans movement.~~ ] (]) 00:44, 31 ~~October~~ 2024 (UTC)		One of the ways gender-critical feminism is described as is '''vaginism''', due to its undue obsession of vaginas. Can this fact be included in the article? ] (]) 17:34, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

			:Do you have sources to support the use of this word? — ''']''' <sup>''(])''</sup> 17:50, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
	:No, this article here is about TERFism in general, worldwide. Whereas that new article is about the rise of the anti-trans movement in the UK and is more similar to the article of ] which documents the rise of the anti-LGBTQ movement in the US.
	:Of ~~course~~ ~~there~~ is ~~some~~ ~~overlap, but also a clear distinction in the focus. Pinging @] as the author of the new article.~~ ] (]) 01:00, 31 ~~October~~ 2024 (UTC)		:Where have you seen this used? ] (]) 17:52, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
		⚫	:This looks like just another term of abuse for feminists. ] (]) 17:53, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
	:Hi! My goal isn’y to cover gender critical feminism specifically, it’s to cover anti-trans sentiments in the UK - GCF is just the most common strain of anti-trans beliefs in the UK. Likewise, unlike this article, the new one focuses specifically on the United Kingdom and not worldwide. As Raladic mentioned, my goal was to make a UK counterpart to the very well written ] article ] (]) 01:05, 31 October 2024 (UTC)
			:I've never heard of this weird phrase. If there is a contingency of notable GCs who are organising under that term then maybe it could be mentioned but if it is just one or two non-notable people, or its only been going for a few days, or if it is just somebody trolling, then let's not waste our time on it. GC terminology changes on a pretty regular basis anyway and we don't need to keep track of track the more transient/peripheral details, just the main claims and slogans. ] (]) 19:54, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
	:I have to agree with @] and @]. This article is about GC feminism in general, that article is about the anti-trans movement in the UK, of which GC feminism is a large part but not the only part. I fail to see any reason why this should be concerning or presented as "rivalry" — <span class="vcard"><span class="fn">]</span> <small>(he/him; ])</small></span> 11:48, 3 November 2024 (UTC)
	:Looks like a straightforward attack page or POV fork based on a lot of OR to me. ] (]) 12:05, 3 November 2024 (UTC)
	::It seems well referenced to me. If you have ''specific'' concerns about POV or OR, perhaps you should enumerate them on the Talk: page once the article is more stable. — <span class="vcard"><span class="fn">]</span> <small>(he/him; ])</small></span> 21:00, 3 November 2024 (UTC)
	::Without anything to support those claims, that just sounds like a rather rude ].
	::Your first 2 remarks may be subjective, but the accusation of OR seems completely unfounded. ] (]) 01:27, 4 November 2024 (UTC)
	:I think it differs in two significant ways
	:1. It's in specific
	:2. It describes the entirety of the anti-trans movement and not simply the subset that consider themselves gender critical.
	:I think it's a useful article and see no reason to merge them. ] (]) 21:26, 4 November 2024 (UTC)
⚫	~~::Specific~~ to ~~the~~ UK* ] (]) 21:26, 4 ~~November~~ 2024 (UTC)

	== ~~Euphemism?~~ ==		== NPOV ==
			{{old heading\|NPOV is a super important rule, and I don't think it is operating too well here}}
	{{cot \|title=Collapsing per ] }}
	This sounds more like a euphemism than a real thing. In the U.S. we just call them TERFs and of course really people we might call TERFs are usually only feminist as much as necessary to justify the transphobia. But the real reason it sounds like a euphemism is that the phrase is incoherent. Who came up with the idea of gender being non-grammatical and distinct from sex? Feminists, mostly. So the phrase is sort of illogical. I've yet to hear a feminist criticism of the idea of gender. It's just trans people these kinds of people don't like. If this phrase is a real thing, someone needs to explain where these people got the idea that they are arguing a feminist criticism of the idea of gender because that's not in any way clear... ] (]) 06:41, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

			Even if TERFs are assholes -- sure sounds like it -- that should have absolutely zero influence when we write. We want readers to walk away from any article with no clue about what Misplaced Pages itself thinks about the subject. I did not walk away with that impression. There's too much material on criticism. It's quite clear to me, reading the article, that the Misplaced Pages doesn't much like these people. It ''should not'' be at all clear.
	:"Gender critical feminists" is the term used by some people, especially here in the UK, and is reliably sourced as such from several references, as can be seen in the article.
	:Discussing whether or not the term is a euphemism is not useful here on the Talk: page (per ]). If you have specific references to point to including such a discussion in the article, then feel free to start that conversation, ''with those references''. — <span class="vcard"><span class="fn">]</span> <small>(he/him; ])</small></span> 10:30, 4 November 2024 (UTC)
	{{cob}}

			People coming to any article want to know about the entity. People coming to an article about entity X want to know "What is entity X? Is it a political/cultural movement, or just people writing books and articles? What's it history? When did it start? Is it defunct? Were there precursors? Who are some of the main thinkers and leaders in it? Do they have a political party, and if so do they run candidates, and if so how do they fare? How many adherents? Is it a fringe thing?" Lots of other things like that. ''Of course'' criticism should be included, but it should be a distinctly secondary subject.
	== Not a euphemism ==

			I get that a lot of editors don't like TERFs, and with good reason I guess, but editors who feel strongly about a fraught subject and can't or don't want to be ice-cold even-handed about it should work on other subjects, not to be harsh but it is what it is. If you ''can'' be ice-cold even-handed, that's different. (For instance, I detest ], but I took out a bunch of over-emphasis of attacks on him, because ''of course'' how I feel about any entity has nothing to do with my work here. Be like me.)
⚫	~~{{yo\|DanielRigal}}~~ ~~How~~ is ~~‘gender-critical’~~ ~~a euphemism? {{u\|Vorpalm}}’s~~ ~~changes~~ ~~look~~ ~~reasonable~~ to me. ] (]) 18:44, 24 ~~November~~ 2024 (UTC)

			We don't want to see, let's say, an Israeli chauvinists writing about the Gaza war unless they can put aside any bias. Right? Look at ], which is hated by many millions of people. There's plenty to criticize, and it helps put the entity in perspective, and it's important to include, but it's under 10% of the article. "Under 10%" seems like a good goal for any article, granted that might not apply here.
	:It's literally in the ] section how the "Gender-critical feminim" as a rebranded dog-whistle of its original of "trans-exclusionary radical feminist", so it fits the definition of ]. ] (]) 18:54, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

			Generally, criticism is not intertwined a ''whole'' lot into our exposition on the subject, but rather put in a separate section towards the end called "Criticism" or something. That's not happening here.
	== Radical feminism ==

		⚫	There's work to be done. ] (]) 10:27, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
	Even the derogatory term for g-c feminism says that this is a radical form of feminism. Therefore the sidebar for radical feminism is appropriate and I am reinstating it. 18:45, 24 November 2024 (UTC) ] (]) 18:45, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

			:Do you have specific proposals for alterations to the article? ] (]) 15:09, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
	:No, we don't need to re-hash this. This is a pretense often used by people to try to justify the ] nature, but is contentious as reported by reliable sources.
			:I haven't looked at the article too closely, but just because someone thinks there's {{tqq\|too much material on criticism}} does not mean the article itself is biased. ] means reflecting as fairly as possible the predominant views of published, reliable sources. If coverage in reliable sources happens to be unfavorable to the subject, then the article reflects that. Without pointing to specific sources and how they are used, this complaint seems to be nothing more than ]. —] (]) 16:53, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
	:The two sidebars that are there are enough. ] (]) 18:52, 24 November 2024 (UTC)
	::Indeed. Nobody disputes that there are links to Radical Feminism but the GC movement has a, shall we say, fluid relationship to feminism, never mind Radical Feminism. If we look at the sidebar it includes some individuals and groups associated with the GC movement, who came to it via Radical Feminism, but not other individuals or groups who came to it via other paths. It doesn't include GC itself, under any name, which perhaps provides the strongest case for removing it. ] (]) 19:07, 24 November 2024 (UTC)
	::With a topic that is so connected to radical feminism, it would make sense to have the sidebar for radical feminism. ] (]) 19:07, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 18:56, 25 December 2024

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The topic of this article is the ideology or movement known variously in reliable sources as gender-critical feminism (including abbreviated forms such as "GC", "GC feminism") or trans-exclusionary radical feminism (including abbreviated forms such as "TERF ideology", "TERFism" and similar expressions). The two main titles are equivalent. The article was split off from the article Feminist views on transgender topics where the corresponding section is titled "Gender-critical feminism and trans-exclusionary radical feminism."

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On 31 January 2024, it was proposed that this article be moved to trans-exclusionary radical feminism. The result of the discussion was no consensus.

Reference ideas for Gender-critical feminismThe following references may be useful when improving this article in the future:

Duffy, Sandra (2023). "Postcolonial Dynamics in Pro- and Anti-Trans Activism in the United Kingdom and Ireland". Feminists@law. 12 (2). doi:10.22024/UniKent/03/fal.1086. ISSN 2046-9551.
Morgan, Rebecca Jane (2023). "Evangelicals, Feminists, and the 'Unlikely' Discursive Alliance at the Heart of British Transphobia". DiGeSt - Journal of Diversity and Gender Studies. 10 (2): 48–64. doi:10.21825/digest.85310. ISSN 2593-0281.
Phipps, Alison (2020). "Feminists and the Far Right". Me, Not You: The Trouble with Mainstream Feminism (1st ed.). Manchester University Press. pp. 133–159. ISBN 978-1-5261-4718-9. JSTOR j.ctvzgb6n6.10.
"How the far-right is turning feminists into fascists | Xtra Magazine". 2022-04-01.
Lorber, Ben; Greenesmith, Heron (2021-04-28). "Antisemitism Meets Transphobia". Progressive.org.
Braedyn Simon (2021). "IT ISN'T HATE TO SPEAK THE TRUTH": ANTI-TRANS (GENDER) POLITICS IN THE UK AND THE DEVELOPMENT OF THE GENDER CRITICAL FEMINIST MOVEMENT: a critical look into the colonial remnants of gender discourse (Thesis). doi:10.13140/RG.2.2.35269.78565. (see /Archive 1#Potential sources)
Valcore, Jace; Fradella, Henry F.; Guadalupe-Diaz, Xavier; Ball, Matthew J.; Dwyer, Angela; DeJong, Christina; Walker, Allyn; Wodda, Aimee; Worthen, Meredith G. F. (2021-12-01). "Building an Intersectional and Trans-Inclusive Criminology: Responding to the Emergence of "Gender Critical" Perspectives in Feminist Criminology". Critical Criminology. 29 (4): 687–706. doi:10.1007/s10612-021-09590-0. ISSN 1572-9877. (see /Archive 1#Aspects not addressed in this article)
Zanghellini, Aleardo (April–June 2020). "Philosophical Problems With the Gender-Critical Feminist Argument Against Trans Inclusion". SAGE Open. 10 (2): 1–14. doi:10.1177/2158244020927029. S2CID 219733494.
Sharpe, Alex (May 2020). "Will Gender Self‐Declaration Undermine Women's Rights and Lead to an Increase in Harms?". The Modern Law Review. 83 (3): 539–557. doi:10.1111/1468-2230.12507. S2CID 214079382.
Nicholas, Lucy (2021). "Remembering Simone de Beauvoir's 'ethics of ambiguity' to challenge contemporary divides: Feminism beyond both sex and gender". Feminist Theory. 22 (2): 226–247. doi:10.1177/1464700120988641. S2CID 233194503.
Popowich, Sam (2021-04-28). "Canadian Librarianship and the Politics of Recognition". Partnership: The Canadian Journal of Library and Information Practice and Research. 16 (1): 1–23. doi:10.21083/partnership.v16i1.6126. ISSN 1911-9593.
Carrera-Fernández, María Victoria; Depalma, Renée (2020). "Feminism will be trans-inclusive or it will not be: Why do two cis-hetero woman educators support transfeminism?". The Sociological Review. 68 (4): 745–762. doi:10.1177/0038026120934686. S2CID 221097541.
Burns, Katelyn (2019-09-05). "The rise of anti-trans "radical" feminists, explained". Vox.
Ewens, Hannah; Attzs, Ashton (2020-06-16). "Inside the Great British TERF War". Vice.
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Section sizes

Section size for Gender-critical feminism (34 sections)
Section name	Byte count	Section total
(Top)	8,331	8,331
Terminology	19	6,539
Trans-exclusionary radical feminism	5,205	5,205
Gender-critical feminism	1,315	1,315
Views	62	36,300
Sex and gender	7,498	7,498
"Sex-based rights"	2,449	2,449
Socialisation and gender nonconformity	5,901	5,901
Gender transition	3,046	3,046
Intersex conditions	4,475	4,475
Sexual orientation	4,993	4,993
Conversion therapy	7,876	7,876
History	15	9,240
Early history (before 2000)	9,225	9,225
By country	126	34,509
Russia	1,067	1,067
South Korea	3,769	3,769
United Kingdom	15,240	29,174
Sex-based rights	4,678	4,678
Legal cases	9,256	9,256
United States	373	373
Analysis	16	21,827
Scholarly analysis	7,535	7,535
Relationship with the anti-gender movement	3,660	3,660
Political alliances with conservatives and the far right	9,899	9,899
Misinformation and disinformation	717	717
Controversies	21	12,628
Academic freedom	6,011	6,011
Conflicts with other feminist and pro-equality groups	5,840	5,840
Social media	756	756
See also	887	887
References	30	30
Further reading	777	777
External links	521	521
Total	131,589	131,589

Vaginism

One of the ways gender-critical feminism is described as is vaginism, due to its undue obsession of vaginas. Can this fact be included in the article? Antivaginist (talk) 17:34, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

Do you have sources to support the use of this word? — Czello 17:50, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

Where have you seen this used? Zeno27 (talk) 17:52, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

This looks like just another term of abuse for feminists. Sweet6970 (talk) 17:53, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

I've never heard of this weird phrase. If there is a contingency of notable GCs who are organising under that term then maybe it could be mentioned but if it is just one or two non-notable people, or its only been going for a few days, or if it is just somebody trolling, then let's not waste our time on it. GC terminology changes on a pretty regular basis anyway and we don't need to keep track of track the more transient/peripheral details, just the main claims and slogans. DanielRigal (talk) 19:54, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

NPOV

Thread retitled from "NPOV is a super important rule, and I don't think it is operating too well here".

Even if TERFs are assholes -- sure sounds like it -- that should have absolutely zero influence when we write. We want readers to walk away from any article with no clue about what Misplaced Pages itself thinks about the subject. I did not walk away with that impression. There's too much material on criticism. It's quite clear to me, reading the article, that the Misplaced Pages doesn't much like these people. It should not be at all clear.

People coming to any article want to know about the entity. People coming to an article about entity X want to know "What is entity X? Is it a political/cultural movement, or just people writing books and articles? What's it history? When did it start? Is it defunct? Were there precursors? Who are some of the main thinkers and leaders in it? Do they have a political party, and if so do they run candidates, and if so how do they fare? How many adherents? Is it a fringe thing?" Lots of other things like that. Of course criticism should be included, but it should be a distinctly secondary subject.

I get that a lot of editors don't like TERFs, and with good reason I guess, but editors who feel strongly about a fraught subject and can't or don't want to be ice-cold even-handed about it should work on other subjects, not to be harsh but it is what it is. If you can be ice-cold even-handed, that's different. (For instance, I detest Jim Jordan, but I took out a bunch of over-emphasis of attacks on him, because of course how I feel about any entity has nothing to do with my work here. Be like me.)

We don't want to see, let's say, an Israeli chauvinists writing about the Gaza war unless they can put aside any bias. Right? Look at Bolshevism, which is hated by many millions of people. There's plenty to criticize, and it helps put the entity in perspective, and it's important to include, but it's under 10% of the article. "Under 10%" seems like a good goal for any article, granted that might not apply here.

Generally, criticism is not intertwined a whole lot into our exposition on the subject, but rather put in a separate section towards the end called "Criticism" or something. That's not happening here.

There's work to be done. Herostratus (talk) 10:27, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Do you have specific proposals for alterations to the article? Sweet6970 (talk) 15:09, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

I haven't looked at the article too closely, but just because someone thinks there's too much material on criticism does not mean the article itself is biased. Neutrality on Misplaced Pages means reflecting as fairly as possible the predominant views of published, reliable sources. If coverage in reliable sources happens to be unfavorable to the subject, then the article reflects that. Without pointing to specific sources and how they are used, this complaint seems to be nothing more than personal dislike. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 16:53, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

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