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Revision as of 14:16, 9 December 2024 edit2001:8003:9100:2c01:f0f5:3d10:42b7:f29d (talk) →Armenia again: ReplyTag: Reply← Previous edit Latest revision as of 19:37, 24 December 2024 edit undoRemsense (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Page movers, New page reviewers, Template editors59,599 editsm Reverted 1 edit by 103.13.193.25 (talk) to last revision by 2001:8003:9100:2C01:A156:B517:3C45:823ATags: Twinkle Undo 
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* <nowiki>]</nowiki> The anchor (#Modern history) has been ] before. <!-- {"title":"Modern history","appear":{"revid":297852548,"parentid":297846608,"timestamp":"2009-06-22T04:31:18Z","removed_section_titles":,"added_section_titles":},"disappear":{"revid":1114443262,"parentid":1114442803,"timestamp":"2022-10-06T14:24:26Z","removed_section_titles":,"added_section_titles":}} --> * <nowiki>]</nowiki> The anchor (#Modern history) has been ] before. <!-- {"title":"Modern history","appear":{"revid":297852548,"parentid":297846608,"timestamp":"2009-06-22T04:31:18Z","removed_section_titles":,"added_section_titles":},"disappear":{"revid":1114443262,"parentid":1114442803,"timestamp":"2022-10-06T14:24:26Z","removed_section_titles":,"added_section_titles":}} -->
}} }}

== Semi-protected edit request on 7 April 2024 ==
{{edit semi-protected|Europe|answered=yes}}
There is error Cyprus is not included in the map but its included in the list of countries so either add Cyprus to the map or remove Cyprus from the list of countries ] (]) 22:00, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

:I stopped counting maps at 14, would you mind posting the filename of the one you're referring to? - <span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS">] <small>(])</small></span> 22:39, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
::They are the 2 maps on top the file names are https://commons.wikimedia.org/File:Europe_orthographic_Caucasus_Urals_boundary_(with_borders).svg and https://commons.wikimedia.org/File:Europe_orthographic_Caucasus_Urals_boundary.svg ] (]) 22:42, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
:] '''Note:'''<!-- Template:ESp --> The list also contains countries such as Turkey and Kazakhstan. Both of which have some territory in Europe but are largely considered Asian. <code><nowiki>''']'''<nowiki>]]'''</nowiki></code> (]<nowiki>|</nowiki>]) 23:53, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
::The article explains the different conceptions of "Europe", obviously these conceptions don't align perfectly. ] (]) 04:16, 8 April 2024 (UTC)


== Citation to add for Early history == == Citation to add for Early history ==
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:Armenia is only "culturally" European (i.e. they think they are European). The country is located entirely south of the Greater Caucasus Mountains, it is geographically a part of Asia. ] (]) 05:36, 7 December 2024 (UTC) :Armenia is only "culturally" European (i.e. they think they are European). The country is located entirely south of the Greater Caucasus Mountains, it is geographically a part of Asia. ] (]) 05:36, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
::Please read the FAQ above. While Armenia is indeed ''geographically'' in West Asia, there are numerous political and geopolitical definitions which place Armenia (and also Cyprus) within a "wider Europe". There are also a few geographical definitions which place the ] region either entirely or partially within Europe. It depends on which definition is used, but generally speaking, Misplaced Pages uses the most expansive definitions in inclusion criteria's for Asia and Europe. That is why Armenia, Azerbaijan, Georgia, Cyprus, Russia, Turkey, and to a lesser extent, Kazakhstan are mentioned in both Asia and Europe related articles and lists, with notes accompanying them to clarify their physical geography, versus their geopolitical and cultural adherence to either/both continents. This impartial stance has been the norm here for about a decade. Regards, ] (]) 18:21, 7 December 2024 (UTC) ::Please read the FAQ above. While Armenia is indeed ''geographically'' in West Asia, there are numerous political and geopolitical definitions which place Armenia (and also Cyprus) within a "wider Europe". There are also a few geographical definitions which place the ] region either entirely or partially within Europe. It depends on which definition is used, but generally speaking, Misplaced Pages uses the most expansive definitions in inclusion criteria's for Asia and Europe. That is why Armenia, Azerbaijan, Georgia, Cyprus, Russia, Turkey, and to a lesser extent, Kazakhstan are mentioned in both Asia and Europe related articles and lists, with notes accompanying them to clarify their physical geography, versus their geopolitical and cultural adherence to either/both continents. This impartial stance has been the norm here for about a decade. Regards, ] (]) 18:21, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
:::Basically, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Georgia, Cyprus, Russia, Turkey, and to a lesser extent, Kazakhstan are a bunch of Asian countries wanna be seen as European countries. If we the ]'s definition of Europe, even the ] is a part of Asia. Hence, according to the British sources, the area of Europe is only approx. 10 million square kilometres. :::Basically, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Georgia, Cyprus, Russia, Turkey, and to a lesser extent, Kazakhstan are a bunch of Asian countries wanna be seen as European countries. If we use the ]'s definition of Europe, even the ] is a part of Asia. Hence, according to the British sources, the area of Europe is only approx. 10 million square kilometres.
:::End of this debate. ] (]) 14:07, 9 December 2024 (UTC) :::End of this debate. ] (]) 14:07, 9 December 2024 (UTC)


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== Armenia again == == Armenia again ==

I see that I should have noted that the consensus ''is'' firmly established to include Armenia in the article for reasons given in a note. But therein lies the problem. The note reads "Armenia can be considered part of Eastern Europe or West Asia; it has strong historical and sociopolitical connections with Europe. The population and area figures include the entire state, respectively." This is just as much a justification for including Australia and Canada in the article, not making it clear at all why they're different. Since they aren't, this makes the justification look specious and ''ad hoc'' as though it's really being given only for the purpose of placating some group of people. This isn't a great impression for a Misplaced Pages article to give. At the moment, I'm not arguing one way or the about Armenia's inclusion but that the way it's been included looks almost like an acknowledgement that it doesn't really belong. ] (]) 18:46, 7 December 2024 (UTC) I see that I should have noted that the consensus ''is'' firmly established to include Armenia in the article for reasons given in a note. But therein lies the problem. The note reads "Armenia can be considered part of Eastern Europe or West Asia; it has strong historical and sociopolitical connections with Europe. The population and area figures include the entire state, respectively." This is just as much a justification for including Australia and Canada in the article, not making it clear at all why they're different. Since they aren't, this makes the justification look specious and ''ad hoc'' as though it's really being given only for the purpose of placating some group of people. This isn't a great impression for a Misplaced Pages article to give. At the moment, I'm not arguing one way or the about Armenia's inclusion but that the way it's been included looks almost like an acknowledgement that it doesn't really belong. ] (]) 18:46, 7 December 2024 (UTC)


:As a standalone it might give that impression, but it comes after the much earlier Definition section which should provide a reader a reasonably clear understanding of the issue of Europe's 'borders'. Would an internal link, eg. "]", help? ] (]) 06:53, 8 December 2024 (UTC) :As a standalone it might give that impression, but it comes after the much earlier Definition section which should provide a reader a reasonably clear understanding of the issue of Europe's 'borders'. Would an internal link, eg. "]", help? ] (]) 06:53, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

:Well, most countries outside Europe classify the countries of the ] region as Asian countries instead of European countries. The only one which classify these countries as European countries are themselves. :Well, most countries outside Europe classify the countries of the ] region as Asian countries instead of European countries. The only one which classify these countries as European countries are themselves.
:The same can be said of Cypus and Turkey, and to a lesser extent, Kazakhstan. ] (]) 14:16, 9 December 2024 (UTC) :The same can be said of Cypus and Turkey, and to a lesser extent, Kazakhstan. ] (]) 14:16, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

== Is the Turkish peninsula west of Istanbul considered Europe? ==

Europe orthographic Caucasus Urals boundary (with borders):
https://en.wikipedia.org/Europe#/media/File:Europe_orthographic_Caucasus_Urals_boundary_(with_borders).svg

Just asking, thanks. ] (]) 19:10, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
:Yes it is considered Europe (as is also clear from the opening lines of the ] article.) ] (]) 20:33, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
:Yes, ] is a part of Europe, but it is a geographical region, not a ]. ] (]) 07:13, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 19:37, 24 December 2024

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? view · edit Frequently asked questions Q1: Are Armenia, Azerbaijan, Georgia and Cyprus really in Europe? A: As definitions of Europe vary, this article attempts to follow Misplaced Pages's Neutral point of view policy. That means covering the view that they are in Europe, as well as the view that they are not. The issue has been raised repeatedly here, extensively in 2002, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2009, and briefly mentioned in many other discussions.
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  • Article requests : Fix the area of Turkey in List of states and territories. Should be 783,356 and not 23,764 (from the Turkey article).
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Citation to add for Early history

For "The first recorded usage of Eurṓpē as a geographic term is in the Homeric Hymn to Delian Apollo:"

https://en.wikipedia.org/Homeric_Hymns has the date of publication as 522 BCE, "Burkert 1979, p. 61; Graziosi 2002, p. 206; Nagy 2011, pp. 286–287."

Burkert, Walter (1979). "Kynaithos, Polycrates, and the Homeric Hymn to Apollo". In Bowersock, Glen W.; Burkert, Walter; Putnam, Michael C. J. (eds.). Arktouros: Hellenic Studies Presented to Bernard M. W. Knox on the Occasion of his 65th Birthday. Berlin: de Gruyter. pp. 53–62. ISBN 9783110077988.

Graziosi, Barbara (2002). Inventing Homer: The Early Reception of Epic. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. ISBN 9780521809665.

Nagy, Gregory (2011). "Reception of the Homeric Hymns". In Faulkner, Andrew (ed.). The Homeric Hymns: Interpretative Essays. Oxford: Oxford University Press. pp. 280–333. ISBN 9780199589036. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Winspiff (talk • contribs) 23:53, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Europe page

Wiki, if you're mentioning the Caucasian countries Georgia and Azerbaijan, why not mentioned the 3 rd republic "Armenia". Sarocard (talk) 02:50, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Armenia is mentioned at a couple of points in the article. CMD (talk) 04:27, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
Armenia is only "culturally" European (i.e. they think they are European). The country is located entirely south of the Greater Caucasus Mountains, it is geographically a part of Asia. 120.16.170.140 (talk) 05:36, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
Please read the FAQ above. While Armenia is indeed geographically in West Asia, there are numerous political and geopolitical definitions which place Armenia (and also Cyprus) within a "wider Europe". There are also a few geographical definitions which place the South Caucasus region either entirely or partially within Europe. It depends on which definition is used, but generally speaking, Misplaced Pages uses the most expansive definitions in inclusion criteria's for Asia and Europe. That is why Armenia, Azerbaijan, Georgia, Cyprus, Russia, Turkey, and to a lesser extent, Kazakhstan are mentioned in both Asia and Europe related articles and lists, with notes accompanying them to clarify their physical geography, versus their geopolitical and cultural adherence to either/both continents. This impartial stance has been the norm here for about a decade. Regards, Archives908 (talk) 18:21, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
Basically, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Georgia, Cyprus, Russia, Turkey, and to a lesser extent, Kazakhstan are a bunch of Asian countries wanna be seen as European countries. If we use the Encyclopædia Britannica's definition of Europe, even the North Caucasus is a part of Asia. Hence, according to the British sources, the area of Europe is only approx. 10 million square kilometres.
End of this debate. 2001:8003:9100:2C01:F0F5:3D10:42B7:F29D (talk) 14:07, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Area of Europe

What is the exact area of Europe? According to this article, it is 10,186,000 sq. km, but according to the Collins World Atlas in my local library, it is 9,908,599 sq. km (they counted to the single digits!). Why are there a big difference between these sources? 120.16.170.140 (talk) 05:50, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Area will differ based on different definitions of Europe. CMD (talk) 08:08, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
Because the Collins World Atlas is published by the British. They have included the North Caucasus as a part of Asia. 2001:8003:9100:2C01:F0F5:3D10:42B7:F29D (talk) 14:09, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Armenia again

I see that I should have noted that the consensus is firmly established to include Armenia in the article for reasons given in a note. But therein lies the problem. The note reads "Armenia can be considered part of Eastern Europe or West Asia; it has strong historical and sociopolitical connections with Europe. The population and area figures include the entire state, respectively." This is just as much a justification for including Australia and Canada in the article, not making it clear at all why they're different. Since they aren't, this makes the justification look specious and ad hoc as though it's really being given only for the purpose of placating some group of people. This isn't a great impression for a Misplaced Pages article to give. At the moment, I'm not arguing one way or the about Armenia's inclusion but that the way it's been included looks almost like an acknowledgement that it doesn't really belong. Largoplazo (talk) 18:46, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

As a standalone it might give that impression, but it comes after the much earlier Definition section which should provide a reader a reasonably clear understanding of the issue of Europe's 'borders'. Would an internal link, eg. "can be considered", help? CMD (talk) 06:53, 8 December 2024 (UTC)
Well, most countries outside Europe classify the countries of the South Caucasus region as Asian countries instead of European countries. The only one which classify these countries as European countries are themselves.
The same can be said of Cypus and Turkey, and to a lesser extent, Kazakhstan. 2001:8003:9100:2C01:F0F5:3D10:42B7:F29D (talk) 14:16, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Is the Turkish peninsula west of Istanbul considered Europe?

Europe orthographic Caucasus Urals boundary (with borders): https://en.wikipedia.org/Europe#/media/File:Europe_orthographic_Caucasus_Urals_boundary_(with_borders).svg

Just asking, thanks. Teastain (talk) 19:10, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Yes it is considered Europe (as is also clear from the opening lines of the Turkey article.) Arnoutf (talk) 20:33, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
Yes, East Thrace is a part of Europe, but it is a geographical region, not a peninsula. 203.46.37.2 (talk) 07:13, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
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