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Latest revision as of 05:55, 17 January 2025

This article was nominated for deletion on 11 November 2024. The result of the discussion was keep.

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This article has previously been nominated to be moved. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination. Discussions: No consensus, from 2023–2024 Gaza Strip preterm births (section) to multiple, see discussion, see discussion.

The following references may be useful when improving this article in the future: "Israel's Measures Intended to Prevent Births within Gaza Strip - occupied Palestinian territory | ReliefWeb". reliefweb.int ReliefWeb. 30 March 2024. Irfan, Bilal; Abu Shammala, Abdallah; Saleh, Khaled (November 2024). "Will there be a future for newborns in Gaza?". The Lancet. 404 (10464): 1725–1726. doi:10.1016/S0140-6736(24)02249-9. The ongoing Israeli military assault on Gaza has led to an alarming humanitarian catastrophe, whereby the onset of famine is coupled with a deterioration of maternal health services, severely impacting the wellbeing of pregnant women and of children. "Women and newborns bearing the brunt of the conflict in Gaza, UN agencies warn". www.who.int World Health Organization. 3 November 2023. "There are 180 babies born in Gaza every day but doctors say a safe labour is nearly 'impossible': Pregnant mothers in Gaza reportedly facing cesareans without anaesthetic, emergency hysterectomies and death". www.abc.net.au ABC News (Australia). 28 December 2023. "France and the UN join hands to strengthen maternal and neonatal health services in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank". www.unicef.org UNICEF. 16 April 2024. "Israel's Measures Intended to Prevent Births within Gaza Strip" (PDF). PCHR.

Rescope to include pregnancy?

I came to this article while wondering if we had an article covering the challenges of pregnancy and childbirth in Gaza. This article seems very related, but the current title "2023–2024 Gaza Strip preterm births" is not in scope. For example, complications in at-term births (i.e. not preterm births) would not be in this article's scope. One option is to retitle this to "Pregnancy and childbirth in 2023 Israeli attack on Gaza". Alternatively, we can have separate articles like "2023–2024 Gaza Strip preterm births", "2023–2024 Gaza Strip miscarriages" etc. VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 19:42, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

WP:NEWSBLOG, WP:NOTNEWS, WP:USERGENERATED

This article uses some sources that are live updates from a liveblog. Per WP:NEWSBLOG, "Some newspapers, magazines, and other news organizations host online pages, columns or rolling text they call blogs. These may be acceptable sources if the writers are professionals, but use them with caution because blogs may not be subject to the news organization's normal fact-checking process."

Also per WP:NOTNEWS, “Misplaced Pages should not offer first-hand news reports on breaking stories." So I will trim some of this breaking news type of content. I also deleted a couple WP:USERGENERATED sources that were tweets. Wafflefrites (talk) 04:40, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Embryos

There isn't a reason to include this section in this article. The fact that a topic is broadly associated with another topic doesn't warrant it to have its own section in an article, this isn't an article on children or births it's on pre-term births specifically. Originalcola (talk) 11:34, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

@Smallangryplanet Originalcola (talk) 11:35, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

@Originalcola Are you seriously suggesting that embryos are unrelated to pre-term births? Smallangryplanet (talk) 11:58, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

No, I am not. This just isn't an article on embryos or the individual incident mentioned; it's clearly far beyond the scope of this article. Originalcola (talk) 12:09, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

@Originalcola The article is about preterm births and the embryos destroyed were destined for IVF implantation, it's absolutely relevant in an article discussing the dangers faced by expectant or soon-to-be-expectant mothers in the Strip. I've restored the content (I didn't see your message on the 6th) for the time being. WP:RELNOT suggests that we consider the relationship of seemingly unrelated content to the article in question when making this kind of decision. In this case, we know through abundant RS that the status of viable embryos is relevant to preterm births (we cover it in our article about preterm births in general) and so there is a relationship between the destruction of said embryos and the topic of the article. Smallangryplanet (talk) 09:03, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

@Smallangryplanet It doesn't matter what the embryos were destined for, this isn't an article on IVF implantation or the dangers faced by expectant or soon-to-be-expectant mothers; this is an article on pre-term births specifically. WP:RELNOT is an essay that doesn't state that we consider unrelated content, it describes ignoring editing rules to keep relevant content. It directly states that "Content must be directly about the subject of the article. Claiming relevance because of an indirect relationship to the subject of the article suggests the item is more about something else than it is about the subject of the article". This is the exact opposite of "consider the relationship of seemingly unrelated content to the article in question".

None of the news articles cited mention pre-term births or the potential effect of this on pre-term births, there's nothing in any of the news articles cited linking the raids to pre-term births. The section you've linked to on pre-term births has one sentence mentioning reducing risk of pre-term births with IVF. There are 3 sentences total on IVF on that page. The destruction of embryos precludes IVF and any kind of birth, making it further removed from the topic of this article. Originalcola (talk) 19:35, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Looking at the third opinion, would it be objectionable to remove the content about embryos for now and propose to rename the article to re-scope it? Alternatively, you could try and include the content in a different and potentially new article if it’s independently significant. I can see in this talk page that it’s been discussed before. Originalcola (talk) 20:21, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

I believe the section regarding embryos should remain in that it adds important information and context. I would suggest renaming this article to "Pregnancy and childbirth in the 2023–2024 Gaza War" to broaden its scope and accommodate for more information. DocZach (talk) 06:34, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

@Originalcola @DocZach I agree, I think a rename would make a lot of sense here. Do we think this can be BOLD'ly changed, or shall I spin up a move discussion? Smallangryplanet (talk) 08:28, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

The deletion discussion I started seems looks like it's going to result in a keep, but I'd still wait a few hours to a day so that we don't start a discussion on a page which could be merged/deleted. Originalcola (talk) 11:09, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Ok, I'll circle back around to this in a day or so. Smallangryplanet (talk) 11:14, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

@Smallangryplanet: There is now a discussion about this below. Industrial Metal Brain (talk) 17:15, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

I voted here ;) but thanks for the heads up! I see there have been some updated options, I'll circle back and add a comment later I think. Smallangryplanet (talk) 18:16, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

Response to third opinion request:

I agree with Originalcola that the embryos fall outside the scope of this article. Perhaps the article topic could be broadened to include the information about embryos? A case could be made that this article is too narrow in focus and could be expanded to include the information in dispute. Nemov (talk) 14:13, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Lead

@Genabab - My partial revert in the lead was because neither the CBC or ABC news article claims that the destruction of embryos added to concerns about preterm births in Gaza. Such a claim is simply either original research or an attempted synthesis of the 2 sources implying something not directly stated in the sources. I'm not going to remove the section on destruction of embryos again until there is a consensus in the talk page, but regardless of whether the embryo section remains or not that should be struck from the lead. Originalcola (talk) 04:58, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 12 December 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus The discussion below failed to achieve consensus for a title. No prejudice against a new discussion after two months. Thanks to all the editors for keeping the discussion civil. —usernamekiran (talk) 16:45, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

2023–2024 Gaza Strip preterm births → Effects of the Israel-Hamas war on pregnancy and childbirth in the Gaza Strip – Broadens the scope of the article to be able to logically continue including material that is already present in the article (such as that of embryos, miscarriages, etc). Also, is consistent with other articles such as the one about "Effect of the Israel-Hamas war on children in the Gaza Strip." DocZach (talk) 00:00, 12 December 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 01:43, 19 December 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. ~/Bunnypranav:<ping> 06:19, 27 December 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. Reading Beans, Duke of Rivia 05:50, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Alternatively, other options for renaming could be:

1. Effects of the Israel-Hamas war on pregnancy and childbirth in the Gaza Strip
2. Effects of the Israel-Hamas war on pregnancy in the Gaza Strip (childbirth could fall under pregnancy)
3. Effects of the Israel-Hamas war on pregnancy and childbirth in Gaza
4. Effects of the Israel-Hamas war on pregnancy in Gaza
5. Reproductive and neonatal health care during the Israel-Hamas war
6. Effects of the Israel-Hamas war on reproductive and neonatal health care
7. Effects of the Israel-Hamas war on reproductive and neonatal health care in the Gaza Strip
8. Effects of the Israel-Hamas war on reproductive and neonatal health care in Palestine

DocZach (talk) 00:43, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Support redirect to Effect_of_the_Israel–Hamas_war_on_children_in_the_Gaza_Strip#Premature_babies It doesn't make sense for this to exist since there is a central article. 190.219.101.225 (talk) 02:49, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

The deletion discussion already failed. This article has enough source material to remain, as was determined here: Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/2023–2024 Gaza Strip preterm births.

This is about whether to rename the article or not to expand its scope. DocZach (talk) 05:34, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

• Support option 4. Overall support the move per nom, but more specifically number 4 as the best concise option given for the target. TiggerJay (talk) 06:42, 12 December 2024 (UTC)
• Option 2 - Support move per nom, choosing 2 due to conciseness of title and because more generally it seems like a naming trend on Misplaced Pages to state Gaza Strip over Gaza. Originalcola (talk) 02:43, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
• Option 3 - Support move in general per nom, 3 is concise while in line with the current contents of the article, making it less likely we'll continue to have circular arguments about if XYZ topic is involved in pregnancy, or just childbirth (and vice versa). Also fine with Option 1, or Option 4 if closer makes it clear that "pregnancy" here is broadly scoped to include e.g. embryos and childbirth. Smallangryplanet (talk) 16:00, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
• Support options 5, 6, 8 - Support move in general per nom. But "pregnancy and childbirth" doesn't cover most of the current page. That timeframe includes the shortest section "Rise in preterm births", but the last section (embryos) is before pregnancy, and most of the page is about babies who have already been born. Industrial Metal Brain (talk) 17:15, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

Added the numbers of the variations we discussed below. Industrial Metal Brain (talk) 04:22, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Comment: In 5 and 6 we could shorten "health care" to "health", but that includes too many things that belong in Women in the Israel–Hamas war or Effect of the Israel–Hamas war on children in the Gaza Strip, so "health care" is a more manageable scope. We don't need to add "Gaza" or "Gaza Strip" because "Israel-Hamas war" will already be mostly Gaza, and any notable stories from the West Bank should also be included. There are a few stories from Israel, but they have only been covered in Israeli media and medical journals, probably not notable enough to warrant more than two or three paragraphs. Industrial Metal Brain (talk) 17:15, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

Comment: I'm also okay with 6, though I would disagree a little with @Industrial Metal Brain and prefer "Effects of the Israel-Hamas war on reproductive and neonatal health care in the Gaza Strip" because that's the only content in the article so far, and I think we can broaden the scope without changing the topic, if that makes sense? Changing to just "healthcare" is substantially too broad, but I think we can find a happy medium, even if it makes for a long article title - it will still meet the goals of WP:CONCISE. Smallangryplanet (talk) 19:01, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

@Smallangryplanet. What are you trying to exclude? Would "…health in Palestine" achieve the goal you intend? "effects of the war" vs "effects of the war in Gaza" doesn't seem like it would make much difference? The health impacts in the West Bank are very much the same topic, only much less severe. The issues in Israel are quite different, but changing from "health care" to "health" would exclude most of them (despite sounding broader), e.g. "health care" could include sperm banking from dead IDF soldiers but "health" doesn't? Industrial Metal Brain (talk) 15:09, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

• Option 6, as outlined by Industrial Metal Brain and Smallangryplanet, with the addition of the phrase 'in Gaza,' is my preferred choice. This will help prevent any unnecessary future disputes regarding the inclusion of materials clearly relevant to childbirth and pregnancy.Lf8u2 (talk) 20:14, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

Relisting comment: It would make my job a lot easier if you all could try to coalesce around one or two options. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 01:43, 19 December 2024 (UTC)n

Comment: @Lf8u2, Originalcola, Tiggerjay, and Smallangryplanet: I added the variations we discussed as numbered list options. If we add the numbers to our original responses it will be easier for a closing editor to see a consensus. If we each pick more than one, there will hopefully be at least one option that (nearly) everyone supports. Industrial Metal Brain (talk) 04:22, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

@Extraordinary Writ, hopefully this helps. Industrial Metal Brain (talk) 04:22, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Relisting comment: No consensus yet; final relist. Best, Reading Beans, Duke of Rivia 05:50, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Post RM Closure Discussion

While I agree there seemed to be little consensus on what to change the name to, it does seem clear that there is support for some sort of name change. Before we throw up another RM, it sounds like a discussion should be had regarding the merrits of the various name changes. TiggerJay (talk) 05:55, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

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