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Murder of Zvi Kogan (talk|edit|history|logs|links|archive|watch) (RM) (Discussion with closer)

Since there are suspects in custody, I don't think the close correctly assessed the interplay of WP:COMMONNAME and WP:DEATHS with WP:BLPCRIME as required by WP:RMCIDC. The closer said that they did not consider the five IP supporters per WP:PIA (Israel says the suspects worked for Iran). Even so, many supporters gave little to no explanation. Some of the arguments that did address BLPCRIME conflated murders where there are live suspects and ones where there are not while others rely too much on the official, non-judicial pronouncements. Given that most non-Israeli sources only use "murder" in the context of the charges or quotations from officials, it seems like we should be erring on the side of caution given the BLP concerns. This should either be overturned to move the page to Killing of Zvi Kogan per WP:DEATHS or relisted/restarted.  -- Patar knight - /_{contributions} 01:00, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

• Relist or Overturn as No Consensus Overturn to Killing of Zvi Kogan or relist - I was not involved with the initial RM, but feel like this was hastily NAC by a new closer after they hastily closed another contentious RM. There is significant contention here with decent arguments on both sides. The closer did not addressed multiple suggestions for "Killing of...", add to that potential WP:PIA sensitivities/bias here -- as such, this is probably something they should have avoided with a ten foot pole. And while we don't exactly count !votes this way, it is interesting that all of the oppose come from 10+ year veteran editors, while most support for comes from much newer accounts or non-EC accounts (but not all). It is a bit concerning that all of their closures prior to this one were also brought to their attention as contentious on their talk page, which they have responded in curt, and borderline uncivil behavior. I would admonish @Feeglgeef to stick to SNOW closures for the time being. TiggerJay (talk) 01:55, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

• I'm going to take a break before I fully reply to this, but, to start, half of the things you say here are not true. Feeglgeef (talk) 02:09, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

  @Feeglgeef -- I will agree that one thing I misrepresented was all prior closures, this was based on your move log, showing you only closed and moved 3 RMs, one was a large multi-page move, and two of the three had editors bring concerns to your talk page. Your actual NAC activity has a lot of closures that is not as easy to search because you actually perform very few few actual moves yourself. It seems you are closing discussions without the ability to actually perform them, and then handing them off to other editors to do the heavy listing, such as this 16 multi-page move, almost a full day ago, which you responded with "I don't have the permission necessary to do that" in reference to performing the move, and not even filing a report at RM/TR. But I do welcome you to comment on the other "half of the things" untrue things. TiggerJay (talk) 04:44, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

• Changing to Overturn to Killing of Zvi Kogan as per Adumbrativus. TiggerJay (talk) 04:27, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

• Relist or Overturn to no consensus This is a rare instance where I'd overturn just based on the closer's response to a clarification of their close on their talk page, which shows they were not necessarily acting as a neutral arbiter but instead interjected their own interpretation into the close. Granted this is a difficult move review to close - consensus was that COMMONNAME was murder, but those opposing clearly show that in this instance, we generally only call something a "murder" if there has been a conviction, which was correctly cited by those opposing. Weighing the arguments would lead me to a no consensus in spite of a larger numerical majority for the COMMONNAME, but as long as the result here is to vacate the close, I'm happy. SportingFlyer T·C 06:05, 12 December 2024 (UTC)
• Overturn to Killing of Zvi Kogan. Participants' central dispute was about the circumstances when unqualified, Wiki-voice "murder" can be used, absent a conviction. While some circumstances exist, the baseline is that it's a judgmental and non-neutral term with significant NPOV implications. Misplaced Pages:Article titles#Neutrality in article titles. Participants brought forth sources which, taken together, were divided on the use of "murder" and other words. Without showing a significant majority of sources or general acceptance of the description "murder", many votes did not justify receiving full weight. I would conclude there was not a consensus to move to "Murder of". (Lastly, of course, no editors argued to keep "Death of", so there is no need for an overturn to revert all the way back.) Adumbrativus (talk) 06:13, 12 December 2024 (UTC)
• Relist - I concur with SportinFlyer that the closer's response to the appellant's question is not a defense of their close so much as a statement of the position of those who supported the move, indicating that the closer is not assessing consensus but stating a position. I am also troubled by two actions by the closer that do not reflect on the close so much as on their readiness to close discussions:
  • • When Tiggerjay said that questions about their closures were met with curt and borderline uncivil responses, they replied that half of TJ's statement is not true, but that they will reply later. That reply is curt and borders on incivility.
    • They deleted the closed discussion of the close, so that editors interested in the history have to root through the page history rather than viewing either the talk page or an archive of the talk page. The talk page guidelines permit deletion of old talk page messages, while also stating that archival is the best practice. Retention and archival should be either required or very strongly encouraged for editors who will be closing any sort of discussions. A discussion is not completed if it can be challenged at Move Review, Deletion Review, or some other forum.
  • I share the concern that the closer may not be ready for contentious closes.
  • It seems better to relist this Requested Move than to close it as No Consensus. A admin should close it after the relist. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:17, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
• Comment - Five days have elapsed since the closer said that they would take a break before replying fully to this Move Review. Since a Move Review is open for seven days, they are ignoring administrator accountability, which also applies to non-admins performing administrative functions such as closing discussions. Is a warning in order? Is the closer now ready to provide a better-late-than-never statement?Robert McClenon (talk) 03:57, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

Overturn to Killing of Zvi Kogan - closer made reference to BLPCRIME but failed to acknowledge what consensus to ignore WP:NCDEATHS, an NPOV matter, existed. I personally don't see how a consensus to ignore it did, and hence why I support overturning. I'd also be satisfied with a relist, but this was just a bad close all around. estar8806 (talk) ★ 02:08, 18 December 2024 (UTC)