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Proposed addition to WP:SUSPECT

I propose the following text be added to WP:SUSPECT:

Given the legal presumption of innocence, criminal proceedings including those against prominent public persons, should not be mentioned on the main page of the encyclopdia until the cases are resolved either by conviction or acquittal. Any appellate proceedings shall have no bearing on whether or not to post the initial findings of a duly constituted court of law."

I have decided to post this as an RfC as this would involve a non-trivial amendment to WP:POLICY and the issue has become a contentious point of debate involving several nominations at WP:ITNC. -Ad Orientem (talk) 17:55, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

Clarification: This proposal only applies to the main page of the encyclopedia, not to any specific articles. -Ad Orientem (talk) 18:28, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

• Support Misplaced Pages is not a news blotter and we have no need to be first to cover a story. Anything we can do to protect the presumption of innocence for BLPs is a good thing. Furthermore a clear and unambiguous policy regarding how to handle suspects of crime would avoid tedious debates about who constitutes a public person. Simonm223 (talk) 17:58, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

  One small question though: by the main page do you mean a BLP's article-space or do you mean the en dot wikipedia dot com landing page? Simonm223 (talk) 18:09, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

  I am referring to the front page of the English Misplaced Pages. -Ad Orientem (talk) 18:12, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

  I see. I'd still support it but somewhat less enthusiastically. I would like us to stop reporting on in-process criminal proceedings altogether as inappropriate to the scope of an encyclopedia. Don't suppose you'd be willing to expand the proposed policy revision accordingly? Simonm223 (talk) 18:14, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

  I think that if somebody is actually convicted and it's major news, posting it at ITN is fine. I supported posting Donald Trump's conviction in the New York case. My objection is to putting unresolved allegations on the main page. There is a huge difference between mentioning widely reported criminal charges in somebody's BLP article and putting them on the front page of one of the world's most heavily trafficked websites. But if you have a specific change in mind feel free to suggest it. -Ad Orientem (talk) 18:23, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

  Here's my pitch: replace the current text of WP:SUSPECT with, A living person accused of a crime is presumed innocent until convicted by a court of law. Accusations, investigations, arrests and charges do not amount to a conviction. Given the legal presumption of innocence, criminal proceedings including those against prominent public persons, should not be mentioned until the cases are resolved either by conviction or acquittal.

  Any appellate proceedings shall have no bearing on whether or not to post the initial findings of a duly constituted court of law. If different judicial proceedings result in seemingly contradictory outcomes that do not overrule each other, include sufficient explanatory information. Simonm223 (talk) 18:27, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

  I'm not sure I'd go quite that far. But you can always add it as separate proposal for discussion underneath this one. -Ad Orientem (talk) 18:32, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

  Rather than having dueling RFCs could we suggest your text as an option 1 and mine as an option 2? That way, in cases like mine where I would support either but have a preference it's all in one place. Simonm223 (talk) Simonm223 (talk) 18:34, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

  We already have several comments so I would be reluctant to materially alter the RfC. But I will add your suggestion below this. for discussion in its own right. -Ad Orientem (talk) 18:36, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

  The notion of appellate proceedings not having any bearing on the proceedings below is on its face contradictory. Also there are a variety of types of appellate proceedings, levels of appeal, and legal systems in which all these things play out, some of which of course don't even presume innocence or otherwise derogate from the general presumption.

  You'd also, if you went forward with your green texted pitch, need an additional comma: after "criminal proceedings". Djpmccann (talk) 22:26, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose Such allegations are going to be included in the BLP article in any such case where the conditions are in line with BLPCRIME. It makes no sense to then say that we should hide that from the main page if they are in the news, as long as the blurb is clear that they are only allegations or charges and not convictions. It does make sense to avoid including news items around such allegations when they are less news and more a due to the spectical around it (eg some of the jadedness editors have around Trump rings true here), but that's something that current ITN guidelines should handle, not a special exemption on BLP. — Masem (t) 18:11, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose - we can presume innocence while mirroring the reliable sources that choose to cover a story (or do not choose). Editors of main page processes currently have appropriate leeway to decide whether a legal case is prominent enough to be mentioned. Ed  18:15, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose. The ongoing legal proceedings against Trump make clear that there are circumstances in which unresolved legal allegations are clearly WP:DUE. —David Eppstein (talk) 18:15, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose Criminal allegations and proceedings are normally major points in an individual's life and they should be covered, whether on the MP or not. As long as the wording is appropriate (ie provides context and makes clear it's an allegation or part of a proceeding), and not giving any indication of guilt or innocence, there is no reason not to have information on the MP. - SchroCat (talk) 18:27, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose, though this is without prejudice to the policy in WP:NPF that we should tread very carefully when publishing negative information about non-public figures. Major public figures, however, should not have that protection: where newsworthy allegations have been made against them, they should be reported objectively and as accusations, following WP:V. UndercoverClassicist 18:50, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
• Support (invited by the bot) Since everything "in the news" violates wp:not news, there's no strong argument for inclusion of anything and IMO so no argument agains setting a bit higher bar. Criminal charges vary from meaningless to meaningful depending on the particulars (such as who is making the charge, the nature of the charge) and there's nothing wrong with setting a bit higher bar for the front page of Misplaced Pages. North8000 (talk) 19:01, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
• Very, very weak oppose, though I support the spirit of this proposal. There are absolutely circumstances in which unresolved proceedings are quite notable, though. @Ad Orientem, I don't too much follow ITNC, might I ask which specific instances of BPPCRIME on the main page have conflagrated? Changed to support, and thanks to whomever signed my post (the reply tool has spoiled me). — Preceding unsigned comment added by JayCubby (talk • contribs) 19:36, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

  There have been a number over the years. The most recent would be Jair Bolsonaro's indictment in Brazil. That discussion is still open and currently looks pretty deadlocked. In the past each of Donald Trump's indictments were nominated. At least two and possibly three of them were separately posted. I am pretty sure the last one was turned down. We posted his actual conviction in New York, which I supported. It's also worth noting that all of the Federal charges have since been withdrawn, albeit for purely legal reasons. In theory he could be reindicted when he leaves office. A proposal to post the withdrawal of those charges was going nowhere the last I looked. -Ad Orientem (talk) 19:57, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

  As for those, I'd argue they have little impact on the world stage. A conviction might be. Changing my vote to support JayCubby Talk 21:42, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

  @JayCubby You should strike your oppose comment to avoid confusion. -Ad Orientem (talk) 22:19, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

• Support Political trials, show trials and lawfare are common in many jurisdictions and often used against opposition politicians. We should therefore have a high bar for promotion of such, per WP:NOTADVOCACY and WP:NOTSCANDAL. Andrew🐉(talk) 23:29, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

  This is an argument against the change. Convictions can easily be obtained in such cases. Similarly, cronies of the leader in many jurisdictions may be protected from convictions for crimes they very clearly have committed. The result is really that legal decisions should not as a rule trump wikipedia's own processes for handling verification. We should be exceedingly careful, but convictions/acquittal should not be a bright shining line. Fangz (talk) 11:10, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

  Doesn't the brightness of the line here completely depend on the system in which the charging and/or conviction has been made? It's for sure a bright shining light to most rational people in the real world in well functioning democracies. Djpmccann (talk) 22:38, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose the blanket prohibition, as there still may be limited circumstances where an arrest made or formal charges against a very prominent person cannot be ignored (I am thinking OJ-level celebrities, or current or former heads of state), that grab the international consciousness that ITN is designed to capture. --Enos733 (talk) 01:51, 27 November 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose. If someone has been accused of a crime and we properly state such has occurred, I fail to see the issue. It is factually correct. I'd like to believe our readers are smart enough to believe and trust us to "report" (or what you wish to call it) on these things properly. DarkSide830 (talk) 05:43, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

  A (1) charging addressed to a court, in a decently thoughtful legal system, by a properly-acting prosecutor (think: Jack Smith) is more significant and important to readers than (2) a mere accusation by eg a private individual (think jilted ex-lover). Reporting (1) as such (not as guilt, but as a charging), is quite proper, indeed the open, non-arbitrary nature of justice proceedings (a value in many rule of law systems) relies upon the public nature of that information broadly. Reporting (2) is usually just third hand defamatory distraction. Djpmccann (talk) 22:34, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose This proposal would create a prohibition that goes far beyond breaking news. Criminal proceedings can take years and sometimes even over a decade. – notwally (talk) 18:39, 27 November 2024 (UTC)
• Comment It's not clear what the "contentious point" is that the proposal is seeking to resolve. Saying that someone is indicted ≠ guilty.—Bagumba (talk) 05:36, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
• Strongly oppose - The proposal is misguided and arbitrary. It would prohibit mentioning the cases of Julian Assange, Edward Snowden, Slobodan Milošević, Roman Polanski, Bill Cosby, the Guantanamo Bay detainees, and any criminal charges that do not result in either a conviction or acquittal. The proposal wrongly supposes that the publication of criminal charges would be harmful to the accused and the legal presumption of innocence. Public scrutiny ensures that the rights of the accused are protected against abuses of judicial and prosecutorial power. Suppressing that can shield those in power from accountability and create an environment where malicious prosecutions are more likely to occur. The proposal would suppress well-written and reliably-sourced articles that are deemed to be of wide interest to readers and editors. There is a high bar for publishing on the main page. Events published on WP:ITN are reviewed case-by-case. This proposal aims to preempt that review. It leaves no room for context and nuance. Buffalkill (talk) 21:34, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

  • • I think the proposal as worded is only for the “proceedings”, which would not prohibit mentioning the publication of criminal charges. That wording only speaks to court cases while they are in progress. It would seem to me that excludes only intermediate events within the courts which would be the WP:CRYSTALBALL guessing or gossiping about a specific days sensationalist testimony and those seem worth excluding. Personally, I think the restraint specified is little and limited but that some restraint is necessary. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 09:31, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

      If the goal is to avoid gossip and minutiae on the main page that should be addressed through policies against that. There's no need for a special policy on criminal cases. We don't want to be in a perverse situation where it's easier to have a ITN about someone being accused of having an affair than being accused of murder. Fangz (talk) 12:05, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

Not an issue -- again, as worded it would allow mention of the start of trial for either murder or an affair, it only says to exclude the "proceedings" of day-by-day trial (or divorce) coverage. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 05:41, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

• Question @Ad Orientem: Are there any examples of items that (1) were published on the main page that should not have been, and (2) would have been prevented by the proposed amendment? Buffalkill (talk) 23:52, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

  Well, we individually posted at least two, and possibly three (memory fails) of Donald Trump's indictments. The fourth one I do recall we decided not to post. Trump's sole conviction was posted, quite properly. The Federal charges have now been dismissed. In theory they could be revived, though for obvious reasons (he will be in control of the DoJ for the next four years, and he could attempt to pardon himself) this is exceedingly unlikely. So we repeatedly posted unproven charges against a very prominent and controversial person, followed by a single conviction. As for the the Federal indictments, the community pointedly declined to address their dismissal in the same way we posted them when issued. It goes w/o saying that this sort of thing gives ammunition to those who claim that Misplaced Pages has a leftwing bias where the subject touches on politics and/or culture. But it goes beyond that. We are also posting unproven charges against non-Trump figures, on the main page of one of the world's most heavily trafficked websites. And yeah, I think that is deeply problematic, and I say that as someone who detests Trump. -Ad Orientem (talk) 01:36, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

  There is a bright line between unfounded accusations, as can happen in the case of sexual misconduct accusations, and charges that have been made by an official law enforcement agency after a lengthy investigation. The former, that is the type of stuff we should even be careful of posting in the BLP's own article, public figure or not, and only really include that info should there be significant coverage in high-quality, non-tabloid sources. The latter, particularly with those that are or were sitting world leaders, those charges are not being thrown around without the agencies understanding the weight of said charges, and would know there would be heck to pay if they were filing those without any chance of prosecution. Add in the weight that we get from long-term enduring coverage of such charges (not just for Trump, but now Putin and Netanyahu and Bolsanano), and these are far beyond the line where we'd normally take caution with those accusations. Masem (t) 02:26, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

  If charges are filed without any chance of prosecution, I think Buffalkill's point about potential prosecutorial misconduct is a good reason for why this type of blanket prohibition could actually benefit those who bring those types of charges. – notwally (talk)

• Support with edits The guidance for restraint is generally a good idea, but the issue here should not be limited by ‘Given the legal presumption of innocence’, as that is not the only reason or desirable limit on the guidance about star coverage. Yes, Misplaced Pages is not a news blotter and we have no need to be first to cover a story - and that is to be reputable and avoid WP:GOSSIP, WP:SENSATION or WP:TABLOID rather than only the legal concerns for libel or affecting a case during prosecution. For ITN, the restraint would be to avoid posting something that is simply accusations as it seems simply rumors about sports or entertainment figures is ubiquitous and not actually deserving a headline mention unless it escalates beyond that. Similarly, it is not just the ‘presumption of innocence’ or just the initial accusation — ITN should avoid covering every single daily step of a trial for a star even if the daily press covered it - it would just seem obviously gossiping over trivia at some point. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 11:05, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
• Question since the proposal would prohibit even mentioning allegations absent a criminal conviction or acquittal, would it prohibit mentioning the September 11 attacks, since the charges against Khalid Sheikh Mohammed haven't been adjudicated? How would the proposal have applied to cases like Richard Nixon, who was not criminally charged but was given an unconditional pardon? How would it apply to Hunter Biden, who also was given an unconditional pardon for any federal crimes he might have committed during the past decade? Buffalkill (talk) 20:50, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose. This would mean that even the warrants against Netanyahu c.s. couldn't be posted on ITN. As long as we have ITN, such worldwide news about clearly notable people should be postable. Fram (talk) 11:28, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

Strongly oppose Presumption of innocence is a judicial standard, not a journalistic or academic one. Harm mitigation and legal responsibilities to avoid slander are appropriate considerations but writing someone probably did a bad thing is simply not the same as sending them to jail for it. Thus presumption of innocence simply does not apply from a philosophical viewpoint. Fangz (talk) 11:52, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

Furthermore this is unworkable and unethical considering the diversity of legal systems and criminal codes. For example this grants a high level of protection to powerful individuals in corrupt jurisdictions who can control their legal system, and no protection at all to persecuted individuals. Precisely the opposite of what we want. Fangz (talk) 11:55, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose, per Fangz, Masem, and Buffalkill. For example, if WP had been around during the Nuremberg trials, it would have prevented mention of those truly significant trials. FactOrOpinion (talk) 17:14, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose -

blanket prohibition unwise;

the presumption of innocence is not applicable in all countries or all systems or all cases;

chargings are often important for Misplaced Pages readers to know about;

good high standards journalists and publications routinely report on chargings, but they do it as such;

complete prohibition on mentioning will delay or prevent relevant information getting to wikipedia readers, and articles will thus be misleading by incompleteness;

confidence in legal and political systems is founded on transparency, and transparency and information is a value of wikipedia;

open justice requires some knowledge of what the actual system is doing, people knowing that certain people are being brought, and certain litigants/defendants need that openness to win their legal/broader case. Djpmccann (talk) 22:44, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose, absolutely not. Trials can go on for years, sometimes decades, and can often be central to the subject; by this standard we wouldn't have been able to, for instance, mention the OJ Simpson trial anywhere on his article while it was in progress. We are not a news channel but we have an obligation to write an up-to-date encyclopedia. And this isn't even practical - how would we cover long-running cases against politicians, when they become massively relevant politically? Netanyahu's legal troubles are central to writing about Israel politics; major events going back years would make no sense at all if we tried to write around them. What happens if an accusation is central to someone's bio for a long time, with extensive WP:SUSTAINED academic coverage, and we write the article around it, only for it later to go to court - would we suddenly remove it? But on a more basic level this is saying that we could ignore coverage and write an article that ignores sourcing (no matter how strong and overwhelming) based on the gut feelings of a few editors that ongoing trials are never encyclopedic. That is not how we write articles - we reflect sourcing and coverage. If you want to try and demand higher sourcing for recent events, sure, that's something we can argue; but an absolute ban like this goes against core policy (which is not subject to consensus) and is therefore not something that can be considered. --Aquillion (talk) 15:38, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose per Buffalkill, Aquillion, and others. BLP is already sufficient to guide editors in whether or not something should be featured on the front page. Gamaliel (talk) 21:31, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose, we have to balance privacy vs censorship and this seems too far into the area of censorship. Our current way of doing things already greatly favors privacy when it comes to living people, I see no pressing need for the proposed addition. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 23:15, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Alternative proposal

From Simonm223. See discussion above.

A living person accused of a crime is presumed innocent until convicted by a court of law. Accusations, investigations, arrests and charges do not amount to a conviction. Given the legal presumption of innocence, criminal proceedings including those against prominent public persons, should not be mentioned until the cases are resolved either by conviction or acquittal.

Any appellate proceedings shall have no bearing on whether or not to post the initial findings of a duly constituted court of law. If different judicial proceedings result in seemingly contradictory outcomes that do not overrule each other, include sufficient explanatory information.

• Support as proposer. I think this would not only eliminate the question of crime reporting on marginally public people but would also, generally, be a great service toward supporting WP:NOTNEWS. Our website isn't for breaking news and we should consider the balance of public good between extreme inclusionism and respect for presumption of innocence. Yes, that should be applied by Misplaced Pages even for distasteful politicians. Simonm223 (talk) 18:46, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
• Withdrawing proposal I no longer stand by this as an appropriate response to the problems I want to solve. Simonm223 (talk) 15:59, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose as long as the person is a public figure and the documentation of any allegations are from reputable reliable sources, there is zero reason to not include them. For example, taking this to heart, it would mean that we'd have to scrub out all of the convictions Trump faced for J6, which is in a lot of articles, including the SCOTUS case (he wasn't convicted or acquitted). We just need editors to keep their writing impartial and neutral, and work in writing summaries of legal proceedings rather than write to the level of detail the news gives (Wikinews can be used for that) — Masem (t) 18:51, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

  A key part of my contention here is that Misplaced Pages has really strayed from the spirit of WP:NOTNEWS in that a vast array of the articles on the website are just news aggregation. I'm honestly not of the opinion that we need to be talking about the indiscretions of contemporary American politicians unless they turn out to be historically significant. Simonm223 (talk) 18:56, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

  I am 110% behind you on the NOTNEWS issue, but it affects more than just accusations and trials of BLP. It is a far larger problem that needs to be addressed at a much large venue, one that I have been brewing how to start in the back of my mind. The over details coverage of news absolutely impacts BLP negatively, but changing just BLP isn't the way to resolve it. — Masem (t) 18:59, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

  This is touched upon at the guideline WP:LASTING: It may take weeks or months to determine whether or not an event has a lasting effect. This does not, however, mean recent events with unproven lasting effect are automatically non-notable. —Bagumba (talk) 02:31, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

  Unfortunately, if you ever try to get some BLP errata revolving around a crime on the basis that it has not been demonstrated to have a lasting impact the response will be that it definitely will and should not be removed because it is so very important. Simonm223 (talk) 12:27, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

  Yes, it's easier to trim (or even AfD) once the topic has died down. I've yet to see a realistic solution on how to manage the excitement before then. —Bagumba (talk) 00:38, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

  I feel like "strayed" implies we were ever doing anything else. If it was written one way it was clearly never obeyed, and trawling through old talk page archives I find we have actually gotten far more strict about NOTNEWS than we used to be (which is probably for the best, but I take issue with "strayed") PARAKANYAA (talk) 02:40, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

  Wikinews is dead and dysfunctional and should have never been started. Quite frankly the wiki format does not gel with news. Propose what you want to deal with the NOTNEWS issue but any proposal that says "go to wikinews" is a no. PARAKANYAA (talk) 02:39, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

• Comment Support in spirit but this is too complicated and US-centric on the details. North8000 (talk) 19:16, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose - absolutely not. As I said for the other proposal above, we can presume innocence while mirroring the reliable sources that choose to cover a story (or do not choose). This is not a solution to the larger problem alleged by the proposer. Ed  19:47, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose for the same reasons as above. Criminal proceedings against public figures are often WP:DUE and should be covered. Additionally, the presumption that all proceedings end in conviction or acquittal seems misguided; cases are often settled without advancing to those stages but may nevertheless be DUE. —David Eppstein (talk) 21:07, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose as explained by David Eppstein. If there are problems with "In the News" blurbs, perhaps this issue should be discussed there (perhaps with a discouragement to accept blurbs that are about an early part of a criminal proceeding, recognizing that this could not be a hard and fast rule). --Enos733 (talk) 21:17, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
• Comment If the subject of a bio was removed from a public role over an allegation before criminal proceedings completed, or perhaps even started, the proposed change would prohibit any substantive NPOV explanation from being given in the bio.—Bagumba (talk) 02:11, 27 November 2024 (UTC)
• Lawsuits What about a (civil) lawsuit (e.g. sexual assault), which has a lower burden of proof than a criminal case?—Bagumba (talk) 02:19, 27 November 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose This proposal would create a prohibition that goes far beyond breaking news. Criminal proceedings can take years and sometimes even over a decade. – notwally (talk) 18:39, 27 November 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose, no matter how hysterically funny I think it would be to have to retroactively remove all the Trump trial stuff from this site. Also doesn't make any logical sense - "or acquittal"? Given the principle this proposal operates on, innocent until proven guilty, for consistency if someone gets acquitted we should simply never mention it. Which obviously doesn't square with a lot of notable topics - plenty of politicians can be highly notable for being involved in alleged things which they were never found guilty of, see Matt Gaetz. Newsy events have an awkward tension with encyclopedic-ism, but unless we want to restrict article content and creation to a point twenty years in the past (the only real way to solve the NOTNEWS issue) there is no way to put this into policy without severely, severely hampering our coverage of encyclopedic topics. We're always going to be dealing with news sources and new things happening, unless we ban current events entirely - which I don't think would serve us or the readers. If we're talking about ITN/the front page, I'm less bothered by that proposal because it does make some sense to be stricter for the front page, but that also won't work too well in practice. PARAKANYAA (talk) 02:49, 29 November 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose, imagine how confused readers would feel with a Jeffrey Epstein article only covering him as an investor who was friends with many famous people. He died before his most notable cases could be "resolved either by conviction or acquittal". Rjj (talk) 03:55, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
• Clarification @Simonm223: The difference between the original proposal, and the alternative proposal, is (a) the addition of: "A living person accused of a crime is presumed innocent until convicted by a court of law. Accusations, investigations, arrests and charges do not amount to a conviction", and (b) the removal of: "on the main page of the encyclopdia". The former is simply an affirmation of the legal doctrine of the presumption of innocence, and the latter affirms the proposed prohibition on mentioning unadjudicated criminal charges on the main page, and extends it to all of Misplaced Pages. Is that correct? Thanks. Buffalkill (talk) 00:43, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

  No, my proposal would suggest we should not discuss unproven allegations of crimes made against living people without conditions. Simonm223 (talk) 00:54, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

  So, is it correct that your proposal would forbid us from saying on Jamal Khashoggi that he "was assassinated at the Saudi consulate in Istanbul on 2 October 2018 by agents of the Saudi government at the behest of Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman" (currently in the lead) because bin Salman is alive and has never been taken to justice? Given that the assassination happened in Turkey, despite being at a Saudi embassy, I assume this would be considered a crime under Turkish law. —David Eppstein (talk) 01:30, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

  Not to mention cases where individuals are being tortured, held incommunicado or driven into exile for alleged "crimes" like "insulting the president" or "promoting homosexuality" or whatever. Fangz (talk) 15:16, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose as less clear than the earlier proposal whether it is for ITN or all WP. I also have view that there is a sharp separation between what is accusations and what has become official charges. Accusations and investigations often turn out frivolous or fleeting with no impact, but legal cases are a notable point where it becomes official with enduring and significant impacts. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 11:27, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

  Sometimes accusations and investigations are a notable point with enduring and significant impacts, and sometimes legal cases are not. There is too much variation in individual circumstances for either of these blanket prohibitations to be useful. – notwally (talk) 18:57, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

  Accusations *often* turn out frivolous or fleeting, and only if it turns into something enduring - such as the sharp distinction of when it becomes actual official charges which are *not* frivolous - would it be mentioned. An accusation that creates enduring impact has an enduring impact worth mention, but it is the enduring impact that deserves a mention - the accusation alone never would be. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 06:45, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose per Rjjiii. We (sadly) have a whole bunch of people like Epstein and Jimmy Savile who escaped trial for their crimes by dying before they could be tried in court. There are also perpetrators of suicide attacks, and school killers who kill themselves rather than face trial. This is well-intentioned, but it would cause far more trouble than it would solve. John (talk) 19:05, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

  Neither Epstein nor Savile are BLPs even when considering the "recently deceased" note. As such statements about living people would not affect them. Simonm223 (talk) 19:11, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

  Epstein was a BLP when the accusations came out and Saville was recently deceased. Everyone will eventually become a non-BLP. Turning the issue into "how long should we wait after they die" doesn't seem helpful. – notwally (talk) 19:16, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose. Worse than the first proposal. It would make a mockery of e.g. the Mohammed Deif article, if all crimes he was accused of but not convicted for would have to be removed completely. Fram (talk) 11:28, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose. That doesn't mean that half an article about a person has to be taken up by a minor DUI charge, but imagine the Sean Combs article without any mention of his current legal trouble. In that case, it is well-sourced and it is clearly significant to writing a biographical article about him, even though the charges have not yet reached disposition. We just need to be very clear in the article that the individual has been accused, indicted, whatever have you, but not convicted. Seraphimblade 14:48, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
• Strongly oppose As this is much broader, it's even worse than the original proposal. There are significant criminal cases where there is neither conviction nor acquittal, including those where the person dies while awaiting trial and it suddenly becomes possible to discuss the case only after death (as notwally notes), those where the person is pardoned (as with the legally significant case against Michael Flynn, where it would prevent discussing the reason for the pardon, since he is still alive), and those where crimes are alleged but never charged because the person is too powerful (as David Eppstein notes). It's also unclear about the implications for civil suits (like the huge opioid case involving the Sackler family), since those result in liability rather than conviction/acquittal. FactOrOpinion (talk) 17:47, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose This is a well-intended proposal, but it has not been fully thought through. There are (at least) two problems. First, it follows that if material were excluded from any part of wikipedia on the basis that a person has not yet been convicted of an offence, then it could never be included if the person were in due course found not guilty. Yet it would plainly be unacceptable to censor all mention of charges followed by not-guilty verdicts since sometimes these events will have significant consequences and be notable of themselves. Imagine a politician is charged with a specific financial offence and resigns as a finance minister, then markets collapse and social cataclysms follow. There could be no mention of the alleged specific offence for the years it might take to come to court? Then, following a not-guilty verdict, there could never be mention of the specific detail which led to the social cataclysm. "In 2025, something happened in Xanadu which resulted in the temporary collapse of the financial system there, causing riots, mass deprivation and large scale refugee movement"? Second, it would be unwise for Misplaced Pages to validate verdicts in places like Iran and North Korea, whether guilty or innocent. Such a validation would be the consequence of treating verdicts differently for the purposes of inclusion at Misplaced Pages, even if only limited to the landing page. I appreciate the sentiment behind the proposal, and that's a decent one, but the response to bad actors putting in bad content is to apply present policies, frustrating as that might sound to the proposer. Emmentalist (talk) 16:40, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose in strongest possible terms. This solves none of the problems with the mess of a suggestion above. Sometimes accusations are central to a biography, or even to related articles; sometimes the legal process can go on for years or even decades without a resolution. Our obligation, per WP:NPOV and WP:V, is to follow the sources, and to cover things that are treated as significant in them; we are not permitted to ignore some of them based on poorly-considered gut instincts. I have some sympathy for suggestions that we shouldn't rely on breaking news sources (though I disagree with them); but this suggestion, I have zero sympathy for at all - it is deeply foolish and short-sighted, and I hope the proposer will take the sharply negative reaction to heart and WP:DROPTHESTICK on anything resembling it, here or elsewhere. As mentioned above, by completely ignoring sourcing and making no exception for coverage of any degree or quality, this proposal would contravene core policy and is therefore not implementable by consensus. --Aquillion (talk) 15:38, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

  Yeah I'm happy to withdraw the proposal. I will say that I remain frustrated with the breaking news mentality we see on BLPs but I will agree that this approach was half-baked and wouldn't solve the problems that really concern me. Simonm223 (talk) 15:58, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Alternative proposal 2

This is actually going the complete opposite direction of the proposal.

Reword to

A living person accused of a crime is legally presumed innocent until convicted by a court of law. Misplaced Pages is not a court or a legal system, so an article about a person accused of a crime does not have to be written as if they are innocent, absent a conviction, if the consensus of reliable sources is overwhelmingly otherwise. However, with the aim of minimising harm or slander, especially to individuals who are not public figures—that is, individuals not covered by § Public figures—editors must seriously consider not including material—in any article—that suggests such persons have committed or is accused of having committed a crime, unless a conviction has been secured for that crime. Accusations, investigations, arrests and charges do not amount to a conviction.

While Misplaced Pages must comply with United States law, as a project the content on Misplaced Pages is independent of any local national government and does not represent an official or judicial mouthpiece.(WP:NOTCENSORED) While the decisions of local courts should have a strong weight in writing an article, depending on the circumstances other reliable sources should also be included even if they contradict the official verdict, as per WP:DUE.

• Support as proposer. This I think is an important clarification. Presumption of innocence is a thing in legal systems. It's not a thing in encyclopedias, academic works, and so on. It's reasonable that we should be more careful, but it should not 100% trump wikipedia's usual processes. If a guy shoots up a school and there's 100% incontrovertible video of him doing it and every reasonable source says he did it, but the guy escaped from prison before his trial, it would be perverse to write in the consideration that he is innocent of both the shooting and the prison escape until a conviction is obtained. It's okay to say "avoid using words the express an excessive certainty that they did it", so "alleged suspect" is often better. (Though in the case of the prison escape, would we really expect any editor to write "he allegedly escaped prison"?) But referring simply to the legal principle creates a false expectation. The standard of proof on wikipedia, even in BLP, is quite different from that in a court of law. Fangz (talk) 11:02, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

A corollary is that we should also not encourage editors to write as if an individual is guilty simply because a conviction was obtained. You can write that factually, the guy was convicted, but e.g. human rights groups say it's total rubbish etc. Fangz (talk) 11:37, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

• Vehemently Oppose WP:NOTNEWS WP:NOTINDISCRIMINATE both apply here. While Misplaced Pages may not be censored, such a policy would open flood gates for attack pages and coatracks as well as adding further ripped-from-the-headlines recentism to the project. Simonm223 (talk) 13:25, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

  This does not overrule those other policies. Rather the opposite: the point is that those policies apply and should not be overruled by "the X government says this guy is guilty/innocent". The current text gives the appearance that criminal charges (criminal where? According to whom) are an overly special case. Attack pages should be prevented by rules against attack pages. If you think individuals should get attack pages dependent on whether their local government (which, lest you forget, includes anywhere from North Korea to ISIS) handed them a guilty verdict or not, that's a ridiculous state of affairs. By what metric or logic should we handle differently writing about someone's bigamy allegations vs them having an extramarital affair? Fangz (talk) 13:44, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

  Put it this way, in a legal context the reasoning for a presumption of innocence is easy to understand. The State must refrain from applying harm (punishment) undeservingly. In a Misplaced Pages content, the harm is reputational damage, but the thing is, reputational damage is essentially unrelated to the criminal nature of accusations. When a "crime" could depending on jurisdiction be anything between a major crime against humanity to smoking some weed or being a homosexual, while non-criminal allegations could include child rape and again major crimes against humanity... if you just want to avoid recentism and attack pages etc, it's a meaningless distinction to make. Fangz (talk) 14:17, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

  Yep. Emmentalist (talk) 19:18, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

• Comment - I think revision of that section is worth discussing, and I agree with the overall sentiment, but am not sure how I feel about the proposed wording. It's clear that WP articles do not always treat criminal allegations as if the person is innocent absent conviction. For example, the article on Jamal Khashoggi says that he "was assassinated at the Saudi consulate in Istanbul on 2 October 2018 by agents of the Saudi government at the behest of Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman," even though the agents haven't been convicted (and won't be, as Saudi Arabia refused to extradite them to face the charges), and bin Salman will never be charged. For that matter, WP can discuss the possibility of wrongful conviction even if a conviction hasn't (yet) been overturned, as in appeals brought by the Innocence Project. I'm not convinced that the section needs to be modified, and if it is modified, I also wonder whether it should be revised to apply to significant civil suits as well as criminal ones. And US law is not the only legal system that is relevant. FactOrOpinion (talk) 18:38, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

• Support For the reasons I give at the end of the first alternative proposal (NB: I accidentally put that comment here until alerted by FactOrOpinion

• Emmentalist, did you mean your response to be placed at the end of Alternative proposal rather than at the end of Alternative proposal 2? (It seems so, based on the content.) FactOrOpinion (talk) 20:33, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

  You are correct! :-) Oops. Moving now. Thanks. Emmentalist (talk) 16:38, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

• Support. This is the way. We must follow the sources wherever they lead; we can urge caution, we can set criteria for what good sources are, which are well spelled-out in policy and referenced here, but ultimately it is not up to editors to second-guess the sources or to create their own byzantine rules about when we can report what the best sources say. If an accusation is central to a biography, and there is clear and unequivocal agreement among the sources, then as an encyclopedia, the encyclopedic thing to do is to reflect that; likewise, if there is clear and unequivocal agreement among the sources as to guilt, we have to reflect that in our article regardless of legal processes (though of course the legal processes would, I'd expect, be covered in the sources and therefore mentioned.) The legal process is important but is not the be-all-and-end-all or the final word when it comes to writing an encyclopedia; we must summarize all coverage, with weight according to its significance - giving legal processes (which are, in many countries, highly politicized) final say is inappropriate. If the legal process is worth so much deference, then the highest-quality sources will defer to it; in cases where they do not, we should not, either. Beyond that this proposal would put a well-deserved stake in the heart of the awful suggestions above and would block people from trying to present them on talk, which is badly-needed given how damaging they would be to Misplaced Pages's mission if not totally shut down. --Aquillion (talk) 15:45, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

• Strong Oppose - this is factually wrong and morally improper. If a person has not been convicted, it is simply wrong to use of legal language that means someone who is convicted, a distortion of facts. You can mention video evidence and such, or say they died before there was a trial, or whatever the actual events are -- but the simple fact is if they were not convicted, they are not convicted and so it is incorrect to use language as if they were or to include such incorrect statements from third parties based on "reliable sources should also be included even if they contradict the official verdict, as per WP:DUE."

It's also morally wrong to invite a libelous judgement based on casual volunteers and limited information. This is not going to be about incontrovertible evidence and some well-defined metric of "consensus" in RS -- it is going to wind up in situations of partial knowledge from media coverage and limited volunteer looking time and arguing over whether this is "enough" or whether I have 10 sources versus you have 9 contrary ones so that's a "consensus". I don't even see it as wise editorial policy to go something that would lead to more disputes. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 06:19, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Markbassett, what is your opinion about the lead in the article on Jamal Khashoggi? The first paragraph says that he "was assassinated at the Saudi consulate in Istanbul on 2 October 2018 by agents of the Saudi government at the behest of Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman," even though the agents haven't been convicted (and won't be, as Saudi Arabia refused to extradite them to face the charges), and bin Salman will never be charged. It doesn't mention conviction, but it's implying that they're guilty (though not using that word). I think that's what's meant by an article about a person accused of a crime does not have to be written as if they are innocent, absent a conviction, if the consensus of reliable sources is overwhelmingly otherwise. FactOrOpinion (talk) 22:16, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Public figure

Is WP:PUBLICFIGURE really needed? All living persons with Misplaced Pages articles are public figures, and it’s really vague how does one determine who’s a public figure.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 18:00, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

"All living persons with Misplaced Pages articles are public figures" is not true at all. – notwally (talk) 18:40, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Unless we stop talking about crimes then, yes, WP:PUBLICFIGURE is absolutely critical. Furthermore please remember that, to be a public figure, a person needs to be independently notable for something other than an unproven accusation of a crime. Simonm223 (talk) 18:46, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

It's not true if we have a clear definition on what a public figure really is. WP:PUBLICFIGURE links to public figure, which is in terrible shape and lists only the legal definition in the United States. What about the legal definitions in other countries? If there's no universal legal definition about a public figure, the easiest way to go is with the general meaning of the term, that is, a person known in public. Therefore, one has to be a public figure so that biographical information is available in reliable sources, and that's what is required for a stand-alone Misplaced Pages article.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 20:40, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

No, I don't believe your argument is accurate at all. "Biographical information is available in reliable sources" is not the standard for a public figure in any legal code, nor in any discussion I have seen on Misplaced Pages. Further, WP:PUBLICFIGURE links to the explanatory essay WP:Who is a low-profile individual, which provides additional guidance. Clearer guidance would be helpful and making that guidance part of actual policies or guidelines would probably also be helpful. However, I'm not aware of any discussion that has ever concluded that notability for Misplaced Pages purposes is the same as being a public figure, and in some cases, that would be obviously not true. – notwally (talk) 22:18, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

You're talking about legal codes, but public figure only lists the legal case in the United States. Could you please expand the article with the legal codes of all countries or find a universal legal definition? A policy linking to an orange-tagged article in terrible shape cannot be a good policy. Furthermore, WP:LOWPROFILE isn't a reliable source or a legal code, but just an essay which is chiefly advisory. Low-profile (or non-public) figures are unlikely to suffice stand-alone articles, so it really gets to the point that all living persons who merit articles are public figures. Persons notable for single events don't have stand-alone articles, and the articles on the events typically contain their biographical information (e.g. Killing of Gabby Petito, Arrest of Randal Worcester etc.).--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 07:34, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

I agree that our definitions of public figures and low profile individuals is quite vague and imprecise. I do also agree that this distinction is important. - Enos733 (talk) 19:14, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Yes, it advises editors that being neutral does not necessarily mean the exclusion of negative material for public figures. —Bagumba (talk) 04:11, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

That's not the point. All material in reliable sources is eligible for inclusion, unless specifically restricted by other policies. We don't need policies to encourage editors not exclude negative material from reliable sources. Moreover, this policy isn't written in an efficient way as there's not a systematic list of legal definitions about "public figure" in all countries in the world. The only thing we have is a link to public figure, an orange-tagged article with information on the legal situation in the United States. How does this policy help editors from other countries in the world discern who's a public figure? --Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 07:34, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

There's almost 1,000 links to WP:PUBLICFIGURE, so some editors apparently find it useful to reference. Are there specific instances where there was a conflict over public figure that we can reference to consider opprtunities for improvement? —Bagumba (talk) 08:00, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

If we acknowledge that "public figure" is a real thing on Misplaced Pages that needs to be singled out, then we need to make sure that anyone gets the right meaning. Otherwise, we involuntarily put our editors at risk in case there's a litigation involving the Wikimedia Foundation. This policy explicitly calls for adding biographical information that may be deemed defamatory, but it doesn't legally protect our editors from any unwanted scenario. In general, all relevant information in reliable sources should be included, but there are countries in which editors have to weigh their contributions against their personal safety. Misplaced Pages is neither a lawyer nor a platform for human rights activism. It should promote, but not mandate, full transparency. I find this policy redundant.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 09:28, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

If you're referring to Asian News International vs. Wikimedia Foundation, I'll leave it to WMF lawyers. As for individual editors, if they want to be more strict and not add the information themselves, no policy obligates editors to add anything they are not comfortable with. —Bagumba (talk) 09:42, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

PUBLICFIGURE is really more used in the negative sense, in that people that are clearly not public figures (by any definition) should have added BLP concerns related to privacy and other information. A person can have an article but not be a public figure if they are not regularly in the spotlight, as I would consider most academics and professors, many authors, and some business people, all whom might have a good deal of coverage to be able to be notable, but to the extent that we would not include a random accusation within their BLP if only a single source covers it. Masem (t) 21:43, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

• Yes, WP:PUBLICFIGURE is needed, both as editorial guidance to what is proper and as legal cover so WP is not guilty of fostering libel. No, all people with articles are not public figures, as said in WP:NOTPUBLICFIGURE at “regardless of whether they are notable enough for their own article”. Functionally WP article cannot be the criteria as that would circularly open PUBLICFIGURE to be a hack of just create an article on the person to get around the policy. I think it is clear enough that a public figure is a high government official, a listed royal, or a person who sought public prominence. I think there is even a division between those whose actions directly seek prominence via speeches and personal press conferences, and those who are simply famous by dint of notable performance in sports or entertainment. I would tend to try and respect the individuals life choices for personal privacy where reasonable and supported. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 07:13, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
• I do not think every holder of a named chair in a univeristy, or several other criteria that we have make people public figures. Someone who won a medal at the olympics 30 or more years ago, or even less, may or may not have been a public figure then, and notability always holds once it is reached, but I think people should have the right to privacy if they chose it, especially those who were thrust into the public spotlight as children or young adults in many ways not by themselves, many gymnastics medalists are minors, so I think it does not make sense to assume all holders of articles are actually public figures.John Pack Lambert (talk) 13:18, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Djair Parfitt-Williams Official Name Change Update

http://www.islandstats.com/sport.asp?sport=2&assoc=1&newsid=63984

i am Djair Terraii Parfitt , i have been advised to raise discussion here . I have legally changed my name to “Djair Terraii Parfitt” … i no longer go by Williams . Can you please update the Misplaced Pages Page

Regards 2A04:4A43:892F:F797:F1AC:BB2C:9658:8426 (talk) 00:45, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Djair Parfitt-Williams

this page ^ 2A04:4A43:892F:F797:F1AC:BB2C:9658:8426 (talk) 00:48, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Where do I direct queries from BLP subjects?

Is there a forehead-slappingly obvious central place where a subject of a BLP may go for help? If I were Sylvester Stallone, and I had an issue with my recent coverage, where would I send such queries? On the talkpage of the article certainly. Not to the BLP noticeboard. Public AND Private, as a sysop what are the best places to direct such inquiries or concerns? BusterD (talk) 12:48, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:FAQ/Article_subjects, Misplaced Pages:Biographies of living persons/Help? BusterD (talk) 13:34, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

A discussion of interest?

Folks, see Misplaced Pages:Village_pump_(miscellaneous)#Suggestion_to_rename_many_criticism/controversies_articles_to_include_both_concepts_in_name. Primarily concerns organizations/companies and biographies. BLP is an issue in some cases, obviously, given the very topic... _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 09:44, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

Reconsidering the third point of BLP1E

Currently, the 3rd point of BLP1E states: The event is not significant or the individual's role was either not substantial or not well documented. John Hinckley Jr., for example, has a separate article because the single event he was associated with, the Reagan assassination attempt, was significant, and his role was both substantial and well documented. I know what this is getting at, but I think that we need to make this a bit stronger in its wording based on how many keep !votes there were at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Luigi Mangione.
Part of the issue is the fact we have a huge amount of trouble getting editors to recognize the bounds of WP:NOTNEWS, that every tiny news detail is not necessarily appropriate for a summary article. As such editors conflate a massive amout of news coverage with being notable or significant. That's itself a wholly separate issue that needs a broader venue to tackle, its not just a BLP problem, but it is affecting how BLP1E is read.
In terms of BLP, whether Mangione's roll in the killing is going to have the same type of long-term analysis and investigation as there was for Hinckley or someone like Lee Harvey Oswald, we simply don't know yet. There's tons of news coverage, but right now nearly all the coverage related to Mangione is also covered in the killing article; what little there is unique to him is superficial biography stuff like DOB, schooling, and career (none which would be notable). Because of this, the article for Mangione is nearly duplicate of the kiliing article, or mixing up the details such as the trial which should be part of the killing article (that event clearly notable). The article for Brian Thomspon (the victim here) also had some of the same problems too, and that's more rip for eventually merging due to this.
I don't know how to change the BLP1E wording here, but it should emphasize that we should be looking at the long-term significance and coverage of the person's role in the event, and not flash-in-the-pan type coverage. Simply having massive cover in the short-term news should not be considered sufficient to meet BLP1E. — Masem (t) 15:11, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

Given that AfD, I'd suggest that any attempt to change BLP would be an action against consensus. The real issue here is recentism in general, rather than BLP, and anyone trying to get anything deleted within a month of the sentinel event faces a steep uphill battle, likely fraught with charges of political bias or other suspect motivation. Better to let editors continue editing that article as long as and until it proves that no sufficiently detailed analysis exists or is going to exist. But I think that may border on a fool's errand as well, since we still have Thomas Matthew Crooks, who appears to have the smallest amount of information known about him of anyone on planet earth (hyperbole...) and yet we still have an article just because with the Internet, there is now nothing to stop or throttle ongoing coverage of topics that pique the public's interest, as assassins and assassinations seem to. Jclemens (talk) 18:24, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

• I mean, it was a SNOW keep. I don't think you're going to successfully find consensus for any change that would have allowed that article to be deleted. I wouldn't be totally opposed to "lacks long-term significance" instead of just "not significant", but it's important to understand that the overwhelming majority of Keep !voters there are just going to tell you that they think that yes, it's sufficiently significant in the long term. (But if your argument is that actual long-term coverage should be required, ie. you're trying to make it impossible to cover anything until enough time has passed for that coverage to exist, then that's a nonstarter because there clearly are things, including articles about individuals only famous for one event, that are required immediately for encyclopedic completeness - if someone eg. successfully assassinates a major world leader, there is no question that we'd need an article about them immediately, even if that's the only thing they will ever be known for.) --Aquillion (talk) 19:30, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
  • There is a massive problem across WP that editors rush to create and expand articles on breaking news, without following what NOTNEWS, GNG, and NEVENT all stress. That's not the purpose of an encyclopedia. As I said, there's a need to re-establish NOTNEWS and stop editors from jumping in to creating articles on breaking news topics just because there's a large mass of news coverage. I am not saying that there could never be an article on Mangione, in this case, but we should strive to avoid that much expansion and detail until it is warranted by longer-term sources rather than news coverage; the details about Mangione being wholly appropriate in the existing event article; we should be striving for comprehensiveness and appropriate summarization in one single article than massive detailing across multiple different articles. Otherwise we get tons and tons of articles that duplicate the same information from other articles, creating possible POVFORKS (a key problem for BLP), and other problems. Adjusting BLP1E's 3rd point to make it clear that its not just short term news coverage but long-term sourcing is a desparetely needed step. Note that likely won't stop article creation, but it is a necessary tool as to reassess articles after the rush of coverage has died down and then to determine AFD or merging or other processes. — Masem (t) 19:41, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

    Masem I respect your contributions here and your take 99.5% of the time... but this is wrong. For example, routine news coverage of announcements, events, sports, or celebrities, while sometimes useful, is not by itself a sufficient basis for inclusion of the subject of that coverage is the core of NOTNEWS, and has been (with some wording updates) for more than a decade. I recommend seriously contemplating what NOTNEWS actually says and not just what people who throw it around as a bare policy reference think it should mean. Jclemens (talk) 19:52, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

    But, NOTNEWS as well as NOT itself stresses that we are an encyclopedia, not a newspaper. Keeping topics up to date is reasonable, but we shouldn't be going as overboard as we are doing now in covering immediately current events. We write in far too much detail for what summary style that we should be aiming for, and editors frequently claim important and long term significance without any clear sourcing towards this which is both against NOTCRYTSTAL and NOR. And this leads to problems that can arise with BLP, such as excessively personal details that would not be included if one were creating an article about that same person but a few years later after a major event. Eg with Brian Thompsin, editors were scrapping any detail about his life to support that article, leading to several BLP violations. This type of editing also leads to common duplication and poor separation of content. We have the Killing article which seems the obvious place to discuss all facets including a arrestt and this trial, and it's clear that event article isn't going anywhere. But the Mangoine is heavily duplicating the Killing article, which is not helpful for future editors and to readers, from an encyclopedic view. We need to reign this in and get editors to write for a encyclopedia, because we are not Wikinews, which is far better suited for the type of constantly updated news style articles. Masem (t) 17:59, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

    I 100000000% endorse this. Simonm223 (talk) 14:31, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

    • Again, the RFC was a snow keep with overwhelming attendance; trying to immediately rehash it is mostly a waste of time. If you want to argue that such articles should be written in a specific way, there might be something to discuss, but sometimes we have to just look at an event and, based on the tone and content of an existing flood of coverage, go "yeah, there's clearly going to be books, biopics, academic papers, etc. about this person in the long term." And people can disagree about that! But I think it might be more useful to think about what it would take to convince you that a particular event was significant in the long term, or at which arguments were decisive in that discussion, and calibrate any suggestion for that, with the acknowledgement that the community clearly believes Mangione is on the "definitely needs an encyclopedia article" side of the line and that you're not going to succeed at drawing a line that would exclude it. To me, stuff like eg. long-term projects focusing on someone being announced is a major factor, since it means that your argument goes from "you're just speculating that it will be important" to, essentially, you yourself speculating that the announced projects won't be completed or won't be significant. See eg. - to me that's the sort of source that we'd look for to see if someone passes the BLP1E line. If you don't find that convincing, why not, and if so, how would long-term significance be demonstrated to your satisfaction? --Aquillion (talk) 19:56, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
    • I can see the value in adding something to emphasize the importance of long-term sourcing to WP:BLP1E. After requirement #3, the next paragraph starts with, "The significance of an event or the individual's role is indicated by how persistent the coverage is in reliable sources." Maybe that line should be incorporated into the first sentence of #3, such as "The event is not significant or the individual's role was either not substantial or not well documented, which is indicated by how persistent the coverage is in reliable sources over time."? WP:NOTNEWS seems to be worded more strongly, and is certainly worded far stronger than it is implemented in practice, especially when it comes to news reports about living people. – notwally (talk) 01:49, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
      • I've never seen wikipedia publish a news report about a living person... Perhaps you're simply misinterpreting NOTNEWS? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:28, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
        • There are so many examples that I assume this is just a bad faith argument by you because we disagreed in another thread. Please leave me alone in discussions unless you have something substantive to add. – notwally (talk) 18:27, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
          • I've never seen wikipedia publish a news report at all, about a living person or otherwise... Even The Signpost is technically published by an external entity and thats the closest we seem to come. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 01:19, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
• There is no way to write a rule that covers events like Luigi Mangione (yes, I said event, not person). I can't define art but I know it when I see it and there will be an article on this person. Johnuniq (talk) 02:46, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
• "Simply having massive cover in the short-term news should not be considered sufficient to meet BLP1E." and it wasn't in this case, next please. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:26, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

  All the coverage related to him right now is short term. We are still in a burst of news coverage, not where enduring coverage would start. Masem (t) 17:47, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

  BLP1E isn't required, its a "generally should" not a "must" which means that being kept doesn't mean that it meets BLP1E. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 01:17, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

I'm just not seeing the problem. In this specific instance, the event is significant and individual's role substantial, and what is known is well documented. Remember, it's an or in the current BLP1E text, so either the event they're involved in is "significant" or their role is "either substantial or well documented". I think the current guidance is working as intended, and the community recognized that with the result we achieved. I don't see that a change here is necessary as we'd only be preventing articles about subjects our readers are looking for from being produced. —Locke Cole • t • c 02:14, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

As someone who edits in this kind of field but avoids breaking news, our inconsistency on BLP1E/BIO1E drives me mad, even though I tend to be more lenient towards splitting articles like these. There is no rhyme or reason to who does or doesn't. It's not the policy's fault - I think the section is well written, this is just inherently a very finnicky topic area. Given this specific case I would find stronger cause for not keeping it, as he has not been convicted and he is not otherwise notable. But people have... strong feelings, and that results in bad decisions in this topic area.

Avoiding the breaking events thing, I really just think it's generally more of a NOPAGE question. After the dust is settled, will it benefit the reader to have more than one page? For a fully comprehensive telling of events would it be most logically covered with a separate article? If cases are widely known, historically significant and have very in depth coverage the answer tends to be yes. Or are you making an article for the sake of having an article? I think these are better questions to ask. PARAKANYAA (talk) 05:20, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

I think one of the challenges our community faces is that BLP sets a high bar for creating a page about a living person, but there is a tendency for editors to want to create pages about individuals (especially individuals connected with a high-profile crime) and there is a tendency to quickly try to delete BLP articles while the event is in the news (so passions are high). - Enos733 (talk) 15:46, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

I agree with this, those two challenges are why we're instructed to not rush to creation *and* to not rush to deletion however contradictory that may seem at first glance. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 21:05, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

It's just there are no gaurdlines on creation, and once a page gets loaded with references (even if they are principle primary sources, from short term news coverage, and which fail to demonstrate notability beyond a single event, it becomes near impossible to merge or delete such articles because editors that vote to keep frequently equate massive news coverage with notability, which is not always true. I don't want to see us suppress article creation, but we need to have better ability in policy to handle cases once it has been shown no long term coverage exists and merging into a more comprehensive article makes more sense.

I'll also add that both BLP CRIME and Victim suggest a stronger form that what the current third point of BLP1E offers, in the cautionary aspects about creating articles separate from a notable event article for previously non notable victims or suspects/convicted individuals. Masem (t) 21:21, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

I don't know about that... I would be interested to see some hard statistics on deletions but it seems much more doable than "near impossible" Horse Eye's Back (talk) 21:24, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

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