Misplaced Pages

Talk:Relations between Nazi Germany and the Arab world: Difference between revisions

Article snapshot taken from Wikipedia with creative commons attribution-sharealike license. Give it a read and then ask your questions in the chat. We can research this topic together.
Browse history interactively← Previous editContent deleted Content addedVisualWikitext
Revision as of 19:27, 22 December 2024 editNableezy (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Page movers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers56,155 edits →Hitler will: ReplyTags: Mobile edit Mobile web edit Advanced mobile edit Reply← Previous edit Latest revision as of 21:50, 26 December 2024 edit undoOfer.molad (talk | contribs)13 edits →Claimed to be?: ReplyTag: Reply 
(24 intermediate revisions by 7 users not shown)
Line 41: Line 41:
Hi im not really into this, but im just gonna say that naziislamism is a stupid word invented by the danish conservative party to use as an islamofobic thing. Hope you gonna look into this. Best regards Frederik. Hi im not really into this, but im just gonna say that naziislamism is a stupid word invented by the danish conservative party to use as an islamofobic thing. Hope you gonna look into this. Best regards Frederik.


== Zionists vs Jews == == Hitler will ==


I changed the text, but it was reverted. Why?the ] (]) 15:11, 7 August 2024 (UTC) Can somebody explain how including that is not ]? ''']''' - 06:05, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
: It's a primary source. Completely inappropriate for anything in the lede. It's about public opinion in some countries and could be summarized thusly: "Hitler wrote that Italy's colony in Libya and atrocities there - as well as German support for France's colonies in North Africa - hurt the cause of The Axis in the region."] (]) 14:37, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
⚫ ::But what’s that even have to do with the subject of this article? ''']''' - 18:56, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
::: Not a damn thing. I'm all for removing it.] (]) 22:19, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
⚫ ::::I think Hitler being worried about Italian colonialism and atrocities impacting Germany's ability to penetrate the Arab world is fairly relevant to this article, no? In any case, I'm pretty sure I've seen this brought up in an RS; will try to dig it up so we don't have to rely on a primary source. ] (]) 23:30, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
:There needs to be some reliable sources connecting Hitlers will to the topic of this article or it will be removed again. And per ] consensus is needed to restore disputed content. ''']''' - 19:27, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
::David Motadel (author of ''Islam and Nazi Germany'' amond other works'')'' quotes it:
::https://academic.oup.com/ahr/article/124/3/843/5487058
::Beginning at "In the last days of the war, Hitler, under siege in his bunker in Berlin," ..
::he also quotes it in the conclusion of ''Islam and Nazi Germany''
::In the last months of the war, in the Berlin bunker, Hitler lamented that the Third Reich’s efforts to mobilize the Muslim world had not been strong enough.1 “All Islam vibrated at the news of our victories,” and Muslims had been “ready to rise in revolt,” he told Bormann.2 “Just think what we could have done to help them, even to incite them, as would have been both our duty and our interest!”
::page 313
::https://www.google.com/books/edition/Islam_and_Nazi_Germany_s_War/0D1rBQAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=%20in%20the%20last%20months%20of%20the%20war,%20in%20the%20Berlin%20 ] (]) 19:30, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
:::And where does that source connect that to the topic of this article? ''']''' - 20:51, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
::::" In stark contrast to his earlier statements on Europe’s empires, Hitler’s final remarks exemplify the wartime shift in German policies toward the colonial world. In the end, for Hitler, his regime’s anticolonial policies had not gone far enough."
⚫ ::::Motadel makes a good point in connecting this document to Hitler's failure to create an actual anti colonial policy ] (]) 21:11, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::Again, what specifically in that source relates this to Nazi Germany's relations with the Arab world? ''']''' - 22:02, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::What part of the world do you think Motadel is referring to when he says "the colonial world" in the context of brining up this document?
⚫ ::::::Brazil? ] (]) 22:19, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::::It doesn’t really matter what I think but that still, even if one were to say he meant the Arab world, make any connection between relations of Nazi Germany and the Arab world and that quote. ''']''' - 23:51, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::::I'll post the full quote from the end of the American Historical Review article that @] mentioned:
::::::::{{blockquote|In the last days of the war, Hitler, under siege in his bunker in Berlin, lamented the failure of his regime to cooperate more successfully with anticolonial movements, telling his secretary, Martin Bormann, that their concessions to Vichy France and their loyalty to Fascist Italy in the colonial world had been disastrous: "Never, at any price, should we have put our money on France and against the peoples subjected to her yoke. On the contrary, we should have helped them to achieve their liberty and, if necessary, should have goaded them into doing so." Similarly, he bemoaned the Italian alliance, which had prevented a stronger anticolonial policy in the Italian Empire, the French Empire, and beyond: "Had we been on our own, we could have emancipated the Moslem countries dominated by France; and that would have had enormous repercussions in the Near East, dominated by Britain, and in Egypt. But with our fortunes linked to those of the Italians, the pursuit of such a policy was not possible." In stark contrast to his earlier statements on Europe's empires, Hitler's final remarks exemplify the wartime shift in German policies toward the colonial world. In the end, for Hitler, his regime's anticolonial policies had not gone far enough.<ref>{{cite journal | last=Motadel | first=David | title=The Global Authoritarian Moment and the Revolt against Empire | journal=The American Historical Review | volume=124 | issue=3 | date=2019 | issn=0002-8762 | doi=10.1093/ahr/rhy571 | doi-access=free | pages=843–877 | url=http://eprints.lse.ac.uk/100197/3/Motadel_2_.pdf | access-date=2024-12-22}}</ref>}}
::::::::It's pretty clear this passage is relevant for us—a post-facto regret on Hitler's part on the inability for Nazi Germany to stir up revolt in the Middle East against the British and French, his capabilities hobbled by the requirements of Italy and Vichy France. ] (]) 01:10, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::Except Hitlers laments don’t say anything about Germanys relations with the Arab states. This isn’t a compendium of the things Hitler had wished were true, this is an article on the relations Nazi Germany had with the Arab states. ''']''' - 03:03, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::::::Please correct me if I am misunderstanding, but is your contention that this detail should not be included because it didn't come to pass?
::::::::::I think that a notable failure such as this actually tells us quite a lot about Germany's relations with the Arab World—Hitler's attitude, his goals, and the constraints imposed on Germany's relations by their pre-existing alliances.
::::::::::There are plenty of notable null results, and this—backed up by a reliable source as it is—seems very much like one of them. ] (]) 14:28, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::::No, it should not be included because no source connects this to relations of Nazi Germany with the Arab world. Please provide a quote from a reliable source that explicitly connects those topics. ''']''' - 14:47, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::::::::Please see above: {{blockquote|In stark contrast to his earlier statements on Europe's empires, Hitler's final remarks exemplify the wartime shift in German policies toward the colonial world. In the end, for Hitler, his regime's anticolonial policies had not gone far enough.}}
::::::::::::Explicitly connects Hitler's remarks to Nazi German colonial policy as requested. ] (]) 15:02, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::::::But does not connect them to Nazi Germanys relations with the Arab states. That was the request. ''']''' - 15:30, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::::::::::The Arab world clearly falls under the category of "colonial policy" and the "colonial world" of the French and Italian empires: Algeria, Libya, Egypt, and so on. This is the academic consensus. See, for example, the discussion of Italy's colonial aims in the Arab world in <ref>{{cite book | last=Arielli | first=N. | title=Fascist Italy and the Middle East, 1933–40 | publisher=Palgrave Macmillan | date=2010 | isbn=978-0-230-23160-3 | pages=167–175}}</ref> and their Libyan colonial policy in <ref>{{cite book | last=Segrè | first=Claudio G. | title=Fourth Shore: The Italian Colonization of Libya | publisher=Univ. of Chicago Press | publication-place=Chicago, Ill. | date=1974 | isbn=978-0-226-74474-2}}</ref>. ] (]) 15:50, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::Again, without telling me what you think is clear, what in that source directly links this quote with Nazi Germanys relations with the Arab states? ''']''' - 16:17, 23 December 2024 (UTC)


== Claimed to be? ==
:It is quite clear that Nazi Germany hated Jews, not Zionists.
:So, if stated that NG and the Arabs had a common enemy, it certainly weren't the zionists. ] (]) 15:13, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
::How about just removing that part all together? And just have the sentence say:
::''The cooperative political and military relationships were based on shared hostilities towards common enemies, such as the ] and ], who held colonies in the Arab world.'' ] (]) 21:14, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
:::It seems quite important to keep in - maybe make it first. It is so absurd to have Zionist in this article - why is this even on the talk page? The source quoted says:
:::> Germany and the Arab world also shared the same enemies: the Jews, Great Britain, and the Soviet Union ] (]) 05:40, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
::::That's not what the source says:
::::From https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/hajj-amin-al-husayni-wartime-propagandist
::::Al-Husayni stressed in his speeches and writings the common interests of Germany and Italy with those of Arabs and Muslims. Nazi Germany was the natural ally of the Arab and Muslim world. Not only had Germany never imposed colonial rule on an Arab state, Germany and the Arab world also shared the same enemies: the Jews, Great Britain, and the Soviet Union. Al-Husayni pointed out that Germany alone recognized the global threat of the "Jewish problem" and took steps to "solve" it globally.
⚫ ::::The article is quoting Al-Husayni, it's not making that statement directly. Obviously, the USHMM would never argue that Jews are the enemy of Arab people. ] (]) 14:57, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
:::::”l-Husayni pointed out that Germany alone recognized the global threat of the "Jewish problem" and took steps to "solve" it globally.”
:::::Your own comment.
:::::Is there no limits you will not cross in order to seek to justify your Jew-hatred? ] (]) 22:02, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
:::Removing means omitting the fact, thus we should avoid it. I've been trying to fact check that Nazi were fighting against Zionist movement, but the only information I could find was thesis that Zionists actually partnered with Hitler to effectively exile Jews from Europe to Palestine. While I personally don't think that this thesis has something to deal with the reality. I remember that Russian antisemitists are very often referring to themselves as Zionists and state that they want all Jews to live in Israel (but themselves they are not Jewish, so this effectively translates into motto "Jews Go Home") and are doing they're best to "motivate" anyone who looks Jewish in Russia to leave the country. But yeah, bottom line, "Jews" instead of "Zionists" seem to be more precise definition. ] (]) 15:06, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
⚫ ::::please see my edit request below, i believe it solves the issue. ] (]) 15:10, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
:::::Oh. You are actually correct. Thank you. ] (]) 15:24, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
::::"Zionists actually partnered with Hitler to effectively exile Jews from Europe to Palestine."
::::No, that's not an accurate description at all. It sounds like you picked up that this is counter-factual propaganda. Think of the Haavara Agreement like a hostage negotiation. Every Jew in Europe had a 75% chance of dying by the end of the war. The Zionists view that for every 100 Jews who left Europe for Mandate Palestine, 75 Jewish lives were saved. Thus, in the Zionist view, the Haavara Agreement saved 45,000 Jewish lives. The Haavara Agreement was supported by the German treasury department under the relative moderate, ], and was ended by the state department for contradicting the Reich's Jewish policies.
::::This line of criticism of the Haavara Agreement originated in Soviet propaganda, which was plagiarized by Mahmoud Abbas at the University of Moscow, becoming a mainstream Antizionist talking point ever since.
::::As for Zionist activities against the Nazis, most of the Jewish resistance were Zionists. The ] headed by ] was Zionist. ] was a Zionist, as was ]. One of my goals in editing Misplaced Pages is that information like this should be more readily researchable, where now it is too difficult to find.
::::--] (]) ] (]) 18:06, 19 September 2024 (UTC)
::::: Judging the Haavara Agreement with hindsight is an error. Nobody at the time (not even most Nazis) knew that the Holocaust was coming. ]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 00:37, 20 September 2024 (UTC)
::::::Herzl himself knew that something very much like the Holocaust was coming. From 1881 onwards there was a relentless, unremitting and increasingly total brutal violence unleashed upon the Jewish population of Russia and Europe. This isn’t debatable, it’s not subjective or disputed. This is the entire reason, which he explains explicitly and in detail across many books and speeches, why he calls for the establishment of a self-governing Jewish state, not in order to oppress but in order to escape the coming disaster. ] (]) 22:05, 24 September 2024 (UTC)


Dear forum.
== Semi-protected edit request on 8 August 2024 ==


On 2024-11-19, the following change was applied (added words are in bold):
{{Edit semi-protected|Relations between Nazi Germany and the Arab world|answered=yes}}
====== motivation ====
There is a duplication between 2 paragraphs about the "hostility towards uk france and the jews.
I simply rearranged the sentences a bit, so one paragraph discusses antisemism and the other discusses uk/france.
I find the new format much clearer.
As a bonus:
- there is no 'hinted' association with the entire Arab World, as the sentence clearly states "some arab leaders". (Dan)
- the colonial subject is not "interrupted" by antisemitsm subject, but immediately flows to the anglo-iraqi war; this makes it easier to read.
- the complete nonsense about zionism and Nazi Germany is removed
======= edit =======
Replace the text staring with:
"The cooperative political and miltary"
Up to: "antisemitism in Islam"
With the text below.
===================


''One foundation of such collaborations was the antisemitism of the Nazis, which was '''claimed to be ''' shared by some Arab and Muslim leaders''', although themselves semites''', most notably the exiled ] leader, ]''.
One foundation of such collaborations was the ] of the Nazis, which was shared by some Arab and Muslim leaders, most notably the exiled ] leader, ], ] (see subsection in ]).<ref name="Holocaust-Encyclopedia22">{{•}} {{cite encyclopedia |year=2020 |title=Hajj Amin al-Husayni: Wartime Propagandist |encyclopedia=] |publisher=] |location=] |url=https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/hajj-amin-al-husayni-wartime-propagandist |access-date=13 October 2020 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20180614075738/https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/hajj-amin-al-husayni-wartime-propagandist |archive-date=14 June 2018 |url-status=live}} {{•}} {{cite encyclopedia |year=2020 |title=Hajj Amin al-Husayni: Arab Nationalist and Muslim Leader |encyclopedia=] |publisher=] |location=] |url=https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/hajj-amin-al-husayni-arab-nationalist-and-muslim-leader |access-date=13 October 2020 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20180614004538/https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/hajj-amin-al-husayni-arab-nationalist-and-muslim-leader |archive-date=14 June 2018 |url-status=live}}</ref>
Another foundation was the Nazi hostility towards the ] and ] which held colonies in the Arab World. This hostility translated to an anti colonial interest that Nazi Germany shared with some Arab leaders. However this interest conflicted with interests of Nazi Germany's allies who held colonies in the Arab world, namely ], ] and ]. ] (]) 13:46, 8 August 2024 (UTC)


The segment ''', although themselves semites''' was later removed. However the segment '''claimed to be ''' remained. The description of the change is: '''added a couple of sentences and sources to back them'''
:I think your proposed change is good. I'd prefer something like
There is no reason to add '''claimed to be ''' and it changes the original meaning. Unless a good explanation is provided, I am going to revert the sentence "claimed to be".
:This hostility was used in Nazi propaganda to allege an anti colonial common interest that Nazi Germany held. However this interest conflicted with interests of Nazi Germany's allies who held colonies in the Arab world, namely ], ] and ], and this had to manage competing interests in the region.
⚫ :I just want to make it clear Nazi Germany did not actually intend to free the Arab world. ] (]) 15:17, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
⚫ ::Thank you. You make a good point. Perhaps modify "Nazi propganda" to "Nazi propaganda to the Arab world", this is slightly more accurate.. ] (]) 15:34, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
::I want to make it clear that large parts of the Arab world agreed with Hitler’s goal of exterminating the Jewish people. ] (]) 22:06, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
:] '''Already done'''<!-- Template:ESp --> this thread can finally be closed. no edits needed here. ] (]) 04:20, 12 August 2024 (UTC)


Thank you, and Happy holidays!
{{reflist-talk}}


Link to exact change:
== Hitler will ==
https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Relations_between_Nazi_Germany_and_the_Arab_world&diff=prev&oldid=1258474935 ] (]) 18:18, 26 December 2024 (UTC)


:@] your changes included more modifications than the "claimed to be" part - which (the claimed to be) section accurately reflects the information in question and should not be put in ]. ] (]) 19:24, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
⚫ Can somebody explain how including that is not ]? ''']''' - 06:05, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
: It's a primary source. Completely inappropriate for anything in the lede. It's about public opinion in some countries and could be summarized thusly: "Hitler wrote that Italy's colony in Libya and atrocities there - as well as German support for France's colonies in North Africa - hurt the cause of The Axis in the region."] (]) 14:37, 21 December 2024 (UTC) :: The ofer.molad account is not extended confirmed and not eligible to contribute to this article.] (]) 19:46, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
::But what’s that even have to do with the subject of this article? ''']''' - 18:56, 21 December 2024 (UTC) :::@] thank you for this information. I encourage you to discuss the content of my message. Then, an eligible editor can perform the actual article edit. ] (]) 21:29, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
::: Not a damn thing. I'm all for removing it.] (]) 22:19, 21 December 2024 (UTC) :::@] I noticed something interesting.
:::I see '''''some''''' pages are protected by by an "extended protected" lock icon. For example: ]However, this page does not have this icon, and I was able to edit it as recently as yesterday.
⚫ ::::I think Hitler being worried about Italian colonialism and atrocities impacting Germany's ability to penetrate the Arab world is fairly relevant to this article, no? In any case, I'm pretty sure I've seen this brought up in an RS; will try to dig it up so we don't have to rely on a primary source. ] (]) 23:30, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
:There needs to be some reliable sources connective Hitlers will to the topic of this article or it will be removed again. And per ] consensus is needed to restore disputed content. ''']''' - 19:27, 22 December 2024 (UTC) :::So, if what you say is true, why isn't this article protected with said lock icon? ] (]) 21:50, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
⚫ ::Thank you. But this is irrelevant to the suggestion to remove the segment "to be claimed" ] (]) 21:06, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
::@] how does adding "claimed to be" improves the neutrality of this article? As far i see it, it degrades the neutrality by trying to undermine a simple fact. This simple fact is mentioned. See the article linked at the bottom of the page.
::* ]
::Further more, in its entirety, the addition breaks the meaning of the paragraph. If the antisemitism is "claimed" how is it the foundation for collaboration with Nazi Germany.
⚫ ::I vote to remove the addition. ] (]) 21:23, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 21:50, 26 December 2024

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Relations between Nazi Germany and the Arab world article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.
Article policies
Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL
Archives: 1, 2, 3Auto-archiving period: 3 months 
Warning: active arbitration remedies

The contentious topics procedure applies to this article. Parts of this article relate to the Arab–Israeli conflict, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing the parts of the page related to the contentious topic:

  • You must be logged-in to an extended confirmed account (granted automatically to accounts with 500 edits and an age of 30 days)
  • You may not make more than 1 revert within 24 hours on this article (except in limited circumstances)

Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page.

If it is unclear which parts of the page are related to this contentious topic, the content in question should be marked within the wiki text by an invisible comment. If no comment is present, please ask an administrator for assistance. If in doubt it is better to assume that the content is covered.

This article is rated C-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:
WikiProject iconGermany Mid‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Germany, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Germany on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.GermanyWikipedia:WikiProject GermanyTemplate:WikiProject GermanyGermany
MidThis article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
WikiProject iconArab world Mid‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Arab world, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the Arab world on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Arab worldWikipedia:WikiProject Arab worldTemplate:WikiProject Arab worldArab world
MidThis article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
WikiProject iconInternational relations Low‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject International relations, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of International relations on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.International relationsWikipedia:WikiProject International relationsTemplate:WikiProject International relationsInternational relations
LowThis article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
WikiProject iconHistory Mid‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject History, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the subject of History on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.HistoryWikipedia:WikiProject HistoryTemplate:WikiProject Historyhistory
MidThis article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
WikiProject iconEuropean history Mid‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject European history, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the history of Europe on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.European historyWikipedia:WikiProject European historyTemplate:WikiProject European historyEuropean history
MidThis article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
WikiProject iconMilitary history: European / German / World War II
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history
B checklist
This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-class status:
  1. Referencing and citation: criterion not met
  2. Coverage and accuracy: criterion met
  3. Structure: criterion met
  4. Grammar and style: criterion met
  5. Supporting materials: criterion met
Associated task forces:
/ 
Taskforce icon
European military history task force
Taskforce icon
German military history task force
Taskforce icon
World War II task force
WikiProject iconFormer countries
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Former countries, a collaborative effort to improve Misplaced Pages's coverage of defunct states and territories (and their subdivisions). If you would like to participate, please join the project.Former countriesWikipedia:WikiProject Former countriesTemplate:WikiProject Former countriesformer country
WikiProject iconPalestine Mid‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Palestine, a team effort dedicated to building and maintaining comprehensive, informative and balanced articles related to the geographic Palestine region, the Palestinian people and the State of Palestine on Misplaced Pages. Join us by visiting the project page, where you can add your name to the list of members where you can contribute to the discussions.PalestineWikipedia:WikiProject PalestineTemplate:WikiProject PalestinePalestine-related
MidThis article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
WikiProject iconPolitics Mid‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Politics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of politics on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PoliticsWikipedia:WikiProject PoliticsTemplate:WikiProject Politicspolitics
MidThis article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
WikiProject iconAustria Mid‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Austria, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to articles about Austria on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please join the project.AustriaWikipedia:WikiProject AustriaTemplate:WikiProject AustriaAustria
MidThis article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
Media mentionThis article has been mentioned by a media organization:

half-apes or half maniacs?

Hitler called the people of the Far East and Arabia "Halbaffen". The great majority of English translations use the literal "half-apes", but at least one uses "half maniacs", namely this (p259). The English phrase "half maniac" seems to be pretty obsolete; once it referred to a person with wild unpredictable behavior or something like that (I can't find a formal dictionary definition, can anyone?). It would be reasonable to mention both possibilities, but not to replace the common translation with a phrase few people now understand. Zero 01:42, 10 March 2015 (UTC

Hi im not really into this, but im just gonna say that naziislamism is a stupid word invented by the danish conservative party to use as an islamofobic thing. Hope you gonna look into this. Best regards Frederik.

Hitler will

Can somebody explain how including that is not WP:OR? nableezy - 06:05, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

It's a primary source. Completely inappropriate for anything in the lede. It's about public opinion in some countries and could be summarized thusly: "Hitler wrote that Italy's colony in Libya and atrocities there - as well as German support for France's colonies in North Africa - hurt the cause of The Axis in the region."Dan Murphy (talk) 14:37, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
But what’s that even have to do with the subject of this article? nableezy - 18:56, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
Not a damn thing. I'm all for removing it.Dan Murphy (talk) 22:19, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
I think Hitler being worried about Italian colonialism and atrocities impacting Germany's ability to penetrate the Arab world is fairly relevant to this article, no? In any case, I'm pretty sure I've seen this brought up in an RS; will try to dig it up so we don't have to rely on a primary source. Meluiel (talk) 23:30, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
There needs to be some reliable sources connecting Hitlers will to the topic of this article or it will be removed again. And per WP:ONUS consensus is needed to restore disputed content. nableezy - 19:27, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
David Motadel (author of Islam and Nazi Germany amond other works) quotes it:
https://academic.oup.com/ahr/article/124/3/843/5487058
Beginning at "In the last days of the war, Hitler, under siege in his bunker in Berlin," ..
he also quotes it in the conclusion of Islam and Nazi Germany
In the last months of the war, in the Berlin bunker, Hitler lamented that the Third Reich’s efforts to mobilize the Muslim world had not been strong enough.1 “All Islam vibrated at the news of our victories,” and Muslims had been “ready to rise in revolt,” he told Bormann.2 “Just think what we could have done to help them, even to incite them, as would have been both our duty and our interest!”
page 313
https://www.google.com/books/edition/Islam_and_Nazi_Germany_s_War/0D1rBQAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=%20in%20the%20last%20months%20of%20the%20war,%20in%20the%20Berlin%20 Drsmartypants(Smarty M.D) (talk) 19:30, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
And where does that source connect that to the topic of this article? nableezy - 20:51, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
" In stark contrast to his earlier statements on Europe’s empires, Hitler’s final remarks exemplify the wartime shift in German policies toward the colonial world. In the end, for Hitler, his regime’s anticolonial policies had not gone far enough."
Motadel makes a good point in connecting this document to Hitler's failure to create an actual anti colonial policy Drsmartypants(Smarty M.D) (talk) 21:11, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
Again, what specifically in that source relates this to Nazi Germany's relations with the Arab world? nableezy - 22:02, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
What part of the world do you think Motadel is referring to when he says "the colonial world" in the context of brining up this document?
Brazil? Drsmartypants(Smarty M.D) (talk) 22:19, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
It doesn’t really matter what I think but that still, even if one were to say he meant the Arab world, make any connection between relations of Nazi Germany and the Arab world and that quote. nableezy - 23:51, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
I'll post the full quote from the end of the American Historical Review article that @Drsmartypants(Smarty M.D) mentioned:

In the last days of the war, Hitler, under siege in his bunker in Berlin, lamented the failure of his regime to cooperate more successfully with anticolonial movements, telling his secretary, Martin Bormann, that their concessions to Vichy France and their loyalty to Fascist Italy in the colonial world had been disastrous: "Never, at any price, should we have put our money on France and against the peoples subjected to her yoke. On the contrary, we should have helped them to achieve their liberty and, if necessary, should have goaded them into doing so." Similarly, he bemoaned the Italian alliance, which had prevented a stronger anticolonial policy in the Italian Empire, the French Empire, and beyond: "Had we been on our own, we could have emancipated the Moslem countries dominated by France; and that would have had enormous repercussions in the Near East, dominated by Britain, and in Egypt. But with our fortunes linked to those of the Italians, the pursuit of such a policy was not possible." In stark contrast to his earlier statements on Europe's empires, Hitler's final remarks exemplify the wartime shift in German policies toward the colonial world. In the end, for Hitler, his regime's anticolonial policies had not gone far enough.

It's pretty clear this passage is relevant for us—a post-facto regret on Hitler's part on the inability for Nazi Germany to stir up revolt in the Middle East against the British and French, his capabilities hobbled by the requirements of Italy and Vichy France. Meluiel (talk) 01:10, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
Except Hitlers laments don’t say anything about Germanys relations with the Arab states. This isn’t a compendium of the things Hitler had wished were true, this is an article on the relations Nazi Germany had with the Arab states. nableezy - 03:03, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
Please correct me if I am misunderstanding, but is your contention that this detail should not be included because it didn't come to pass?
I think that a notable failure such as this actually tells us quite a lot about Germany's relations with the Arab World—Hitler's attitude, his goals, and the constraints imposed on Germany's relations by their pre-existing alliances.
There are plenty of notable null results, and this—backed up by a reliable source as it is—seems very much like one of them. Meluiel (talk) 14:28, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
No, it should not be included because no source connects this to relations of Nazi Germany with the Arab world. Please provide a quote from a reliable source that explicitly connects those topics. nableezy - 14:47, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
Please see above:

In stark contrast to his earlier statements on Europe's empires, Hitler's final remarks exemplify the wartime shift in German policies toward the colonial world. In the end, for Hitler, his regime's anticolonial policies had not gone far enough.

Explicitly connects Hitler's remarks to Nazi German colonial policy as requested. Meluiel (talk) 15:02, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
But does not connect them to Nazi Germanys relations with the Arab states. That was the request. nableezy - 15:30, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
The Arab world clearly falls under the category of "colonial policy" and the "colonial world" of the French and Italian empires: Algeria, Libya, Egypt, and so on. This is the academic consensus. See, for example, the discussion of Italy's colonial aims in the Arab world in and their Libyan colonial policy in . Meluiel (talk) 15:50, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
Again, without telling me what you think is clear, what in that source directly links this quote with Nazi Germanys relations with the Arab states? nableezy - 16:17, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Claimed to be?

Dear forum.

On 2024-11-19, the following change was applied (added words are in bold):

One foundation of such collaborations was the antisemitism of the Nazis, which was claimed to be shared by some Arab and Muslim leaders, although themselves semites, most notably the exiled Palestinian leader, Grand Mufti of Jerusalem.

The segment , although themselves semites was later removed. However the segment claimed to be remained. The description of the change is: added a couple of sentences and sources to back them There is no reason to add claimed to be and it changes the original meaning. Unless a good explanation is provided, I am going to revert the sentence "claimed to be".

Thank you, and Happy holidays!

Link to exact change: https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Relations_between_Nazi_Germany_and_the_Arab_world&diff=prev&oldid=1258474935 Ofer.molad (talk) 18:18, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

@Ofer.molad your changes included more modifications than the "claimed to be" part - which (the claimed to be) section accurately reflects the information in question and should not be put in WP:WIKIVOICE. Smallangryplanet (talk) 19:24, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
The ofer.molad account is not extended confirmed and not eligible to contribute to this article.Dan Murphy (talk) 19:46, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
@Dan Murphy thank you for this information. I encourage you to discuss the content of my message. Then, an eligible editor can perform the actual article edit. Ofer.molad (talk) 21:29, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
@Dan Murphy I noticed something interesting.
I see some pages are protected by by an "extended protected" lock icon. For example: Russian invasion of UkraineHowever, this page does not have this icon, and I was able to edit it as recently as yesterday.
So, if what you say is true, why isn't this article protected with said lock icon? Ofer.molad (talk) 21:50, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
Thank you. But this is irrelevant to the suggestion to remove the segment "to be claimed" Ofer.molad (talk) 21:06, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
@Smallangryplanet how does adding "claimed to be" improves the neutrality of this article? As far i see it, it degrades the neutrality by trying to undermine a simple fact. This simple fact is mentioned. See the article linked at the bottom of the page.
Further more, in its entirety, the addition breaks the meaning of the paragraph. If the antisemitism is "claimed" how is it the foundation for collaboration with Nazi Germany.
I vote to remove the addition. Ofer.molad (talk) 21:23, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
  1. Motadel, David (2019). "The Global Authoritarian Moment and the Revolt against Empire" (PDF). The American Historical Review. 124 (3): 843–877. doi:10.1093/ahr/rhy571. ISSN 0002-8762. Retrieved 2024-12-22.
  2. Arielli, N. (2010). Fascist Italy and the Middle East, 1933–40. Palgrave Macmillan. pp. 167–175. ISBN 978-0-230-23160-3.
  3. Segrè, Claudio G. (1974). Fourth Shore: The Italian Colonization of Libya. Chicago, Ill.: Univ. of Chicago Press. ISBN 978-0-226-74474-2.
Categories: