Misplaced Pages

Latest revision as of 12:57, 26 December 2024

Muslim migrations to Ottoman Palestine

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Muslim migrations to Ottoman Palestine (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)

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Article started by Icewhiz sock. Article is taken straight from Zionist propaganda: Palestinians are "recent" immigrants to Israel/Palestine, when Jewish immigration was far larger Huldra (talk) 23:53, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

• Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Israel and Palestine. Huldra (talk) 23:53, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

• Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: History and Islam. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 00:01, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

• Keep if there is a POV bias in this page, that should be resolved by editing. If the topic is notable, which it appears to be, that wouldn't be a valid deletion rationale. Has sources, and ineligible for G5 since other contributions were made after the sock. Andre🚐 00:03, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

  Both the Arab migrations to the Levant page and this page are pretty long, so I'm not sure if a merge is the best route. I could see there being a page about each of the major periods of migration. It doesn't seem like this topic is currently covered in the former page though. I'm going to remain at Keep for now and not Merge even though I can understand the argument to Merge. Andre🚐 23:22, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Speedy keep. "Article is Zionist propaganda" is not a valid deletion argument. Specifically, according to WP:SKCRIT, this is a nomination that is clearly an attempt to end an editing dispute through deletion, where dispute resolution is a more appropriate course. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 00:43, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

While I agree their wording is unnecessarily combative, WP:G5 is still a valid reason to bring this here & I'm unsure how it could be considered an "attempt to end an editing dispute." Who is the editing dispute between? Butterscotch Beluga (talk) 01:26, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

@Butterscotch Beluga: As Andre said, the page has substantial edits from one other person and doesn't qualify for G5. The editing dispute is that Huldra is unhappy with the article's content. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 01:47, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

• Delete or Merge to Demographic history of Palestine (region). I don't think the wording of this proposal was necessary, but regardless, outside of being mostly written by a blocked sock, this article feels like undetailed retreading of already existing articles. It relies too much on the writings of 1 author, David Grossman, with 5/16 sources written by him + as far as I can tell online, he also had a hand in Zvi Ilan's 'Turkmens, Circassians, and Bosnians in Northern Sharon", though I could be misreading that. It also contains content unrelated to the topic such as Druze communities & settlement to areas that weren't a part of Ottoman Palestine like Damascus, Ajloun, and the Hauran. - Butterscotch Beluga (talk) 01:08, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

  @Butterscotch Beluga: What about merging with Arab migrations to the Levant? Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 01:50, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

  That'd actually be better. I had originally proposed Demographic history of Palestine (region) because I thought it was also being merged with Arab migrations to the Levant, but I now see that proposal isn't gaining traction. Butterscotch Beluga (talk) 01:54, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

• Merge to Arab migrations to the Levant. There was nothing special about Palestine in the Ottoman period as far as Muslim population movements were concerned. The I-P conflict is the only reason for the focus on Palestine, and that focus creates the misleading impression that Palestine was special when it wasn't. This article also fails to give a balanced account as there is no attempt to place migrations in context or weigh their significance relative to the existing population. Zero 08:32, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
  Delete. I changed my mind after checking DaWalda's source investigation. The mention of Volney was only correct because I had fixed it recently, but DaWalda is right that the next page is also crucial. Unfortunately, nothing that Icewhiz ever wrote can be trusted. As far as merging is concerned, the main claims are already in Demographic history of Palestine (region) where they also need to be carefully assessed against the sources. Zero 02:08, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
• Merge The content could be suitably added to Arab migrations to the Levant or Demographic history of Palestine (region). Richard Nevell (talk) 17:14, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
• Delete. I have thoroughly reviewed only the sections on the 16th century, the 17th–18th centuries, and the 1830s because these are the periods I am most familiar with. However, they are so flawed that even a merge would not be worthwhile:
  16th century: This section does not address immigration at all.
  17th-18th century:
  The first paragraph cites Krämer. The referenced pages 134f. only state: The total number of nomads appears to have been small, at least until the immigration of Bedouin clans from the Hijaz, Syria, and Transjordan in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries. The cities, too, were surprisingly small. Pp. 50f. do not specifically concern Palestine and more likely focus on East Jordanian areas. The passage begins: ... Bedouins could also become partners with the Ottoman government and its local representatives, acting among other things as guardians and protectors of individual stretches of road, especially along the pilgrimage route from Damascus to Mecca. Up into the mid-nineteenth century, the Ottoman authorities pursued a policy favorable to the Bedouins .
  The same Krämer references are repeated four times in the 1830s section, and in none of these cases do they support the claims made in the Misplaced Pages text.
  The second paragraph is sourced to Ehrlich 2022, p. 82, but this discusses only the Golan, the former Decapolis region, Banias, and Jabal al-Druze—all locations in Syria or Jordan, albeit near the border. Again, nothing about immigration to Palestine.
  The third paragraph is acceptable, but if Volney is cited, the subsequent page must also be included, where it states that most of these mentioned Egyptian migrants eventually perished.
  1830s:
  In the first paragraph, sentences 1 and 2 are accurate. Sentence 3, as mentioned, is a misquotation. Sentence 4 is misleading; Sabri does not discuss the deserters mentioned by Grossman in sentence 2 but rather a different migration movement of 6,000 peasants (cf. Aharoni/Kressel 2018, p. 9; Grossman, p. 47 ).
  In the second paragraph, Jaffa is correct (Grossman estimates 2,000 Egyptians there: p. 52). However, regarding the Gaza area, Grossman explicitly states: In most cases the Egyptian army dropouts and the other Egyptian settlers preferred to settle in existing localities, rather than to establish new villages. ... The southern coastal plain (Philistia) ... owever, ... was densely settled and, therefore, its land reserves were low. Accordingly, all locations with Egyptian populations shown on the map on p. 53 are north of Gaza.
  The next sentence is again misquoted but could instead be supported with Grossman, pp. 55–57.
  Regarding the final sentence about residents of the southern coastal plain moving to Wadi Ara, Icewhiz appears to have generalized the story of one Egyptian immigrant interviewed by Grossman (p. 55) to all Egyptians who migrated to the southern coastal plain/Wadi Ara. The only verifiable claim here is that some Egyptian immigrants also settled in Wadi Ara.
  => In summary, these three chapters provide roughly four usable sentences for a merge. However, identifying which sentences are salvageable would require access to and command of the original sources. Given both, one could better supplement the Demographic history of Palestine (region) article directly with these sources, without relying on this flawed article. DaWalda (talk) 00:27, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
• Delete per DaWalda, who did the work and has uncovered troubling misrepresentation of source material.Dan Murphy (talk) 01:55, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

I gotta ask. Does anyone think this misleading article on a non-topic written by a liar should persist? There are almost no contributions to it except from the liar and people trying to clean up the liar's mess. What are we even doing here?Dan Murphy (talk) 03:54, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

• Keep Why is this even a discussion? MaskedSinger (talk) 12:57, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

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