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The lead should reflect this nuanced understanding, which is consistent with the evidence presented in the body of the article. To ignore such discussions may inadvertently contribute to the very ] that Shaw critiqued. --] (]) 02:19, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
The lead should reflect this nuanced understanding, which is consistent with the evidence presented in the body of the article. To ignore such discussions may inadvertently contribute to the very ] that Shaw critiqued. --] (]) 02:19, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
:At the very least we should mention bardolatry somewhere. For example, {{tq|The modern reception of Shakespeare reflects both admiration and critique, with ] coining the term ] to challenge excessive reverence.}} --] (]) 02:44, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
:At the very least we should mention bardolatry somewhere. For example, {{tq|The modern reception of Shakespeare reflects both admiration and critique, with ] coining the term ] to challenge excessive reverence.}} --] (]) 02:44, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
:The lead is meant to be a brief summary of key facts. Very often, it very much should not contain nuances as such.Pokingaholeinsomething well-cited with one scholarlyopinionofyourownisananti-patternforthelead.Thosediscussionsaretobereserved for the articlebody. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff"> ‥ </span>]</span> 06:01, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
:The lead is meant to be a brief summary of key facts about a subject, proportional to their representation in the article body. Very often, it absolutely should not describe nuances of this kind as there is simply no time to do so without throwing the reader's initial assessment totally out of whack. Juxtaposing a well-cited claim with one that is contrary or dissenting but clearly less well represented is an antipattern. Such nuances belong in the body . <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff"> ‥ </span>]</span> 06:01, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
::Nobody is ignoring anything. The "bardolatory" criticism of Shaw '''is''' already mentioned in the ''Critical reputation'' section, which points to two, fuller, sub-articles where it is covered in greater detail. To lob an uncontextualised mention of Ibsen into the lead would be of no help to the reader. ] (]) 07:20, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Shakespeare is a name associated with William, arguably the best to ever do it in multiple realms. Several writers of the same era, and previous ones, with a less known body of work, only have 1 name on their articles. The redirect is already his, no (disambiguation). I understand both reasons against and in support, just want to test the waters to see where we stand on this. It seems a reasonable move:
Support move to Shakespeare, the article subject is consistently refered to as such-and was during his time.
Oppose - Assuming I’ve correctly understood the proposal as; rename the “William Shakespeare” article as “Shakespeare”. His name was William Shakespeare, and if you’re thinking about ease for readers, “Shakespeare” already redirects here, as you say. You suggest there are other authors whose pages follow the proposed approach. Could you give a couple of examples? That might help me better understand your thinking. KJP1 (talk) 16:23, 3 August 2024 (UTC)
Yes, some Ancient Greeks came to mind. But the proposer suggests there are writers broadly contemporary to Shakespeare where this approach is followed. KJP1 (talk) 17:19, 3 August 2024 (UTC)
Oppose. Per WP:MONONYM: "Using the last name as the page title for a person, when the first name is also known and used, is discouraged, even if that name would be unambiguous, and even if it consists of more than one word. Unambiguous last names are usually redirects: for example, Ludwig van Beethoven is the title of an article, while Van Beethoven and Beethoven redirect to that article."Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:02, 3 August 2024 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Outdated line to change
Under "Legacy": "Shakespeare remains the world's best-selling playwright, with sales of his plays and poetry believed to have achieved in excess of four billion copies in the almost 400 years since his death." We are considerably beyond the 400 year mark. 47.221.100.154 (talk) 23:04, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
The line is a quote from Guinness World Records (2014 edition), and is correct in that sense. You'll need to get a more recent edition of Guinness, quoting the appropriate entry to correct this. Mediatech492 (talk) 00:12, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
If sales of Shakespeare's plays and poetry were in excess of four billion copies ten years ago, they are still in excess of four billion copies. The number of sales cannot fall. The 2014 Guiness World Records source would still support the updated sentence. It's just a technicality. 47.221.100.154 (talk) 21:33, 23 October 2024 (UTC)
The "four billion copies" is not the fact at issue here. The fact at issue is the "almost 400 years"., which is correct if you are quoting the 2014 issue of Guinness (which it is). As I stated above, a more recent issue of Guinness (2016 or later) will have the updated factoid (more than 400 years). Yes, it is a technicality, but an encyclopedia is all about the technicalities. Mediatech492 (talk) 22:45, 23 October 2024 (UTC)
One of...
I see there's been an unsourced edit to the lead to make Shakespeare "one of" the most influential writers in English. Such edits have been controversial in the past. I'm just mentioning it and don't intend to revert. AndyJones (talk) 13:44, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
I have reverted it. It is surely unarguable to state that WS was “arguably” the most influential writer in English ever. KJP1 (talk) 15:20, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
p.s. It might benefit the editor wanting the change to take a look at earlier discussions on the same point, . KJP1 (talk) 06:31, 25 December 2024 (UTC)
The modern reception of Shakespeare
Remsense, it would be beneficial if you had actually read the body of the article before editing the lead and removing other editors' contributions. The material regarding the modern reception of Shakespeare is thoroughly covered in the section "Critical reputation" and serves as a fair and balanced overview of how Shakespeare has been perceived, particularly in the age of modern drama since the 19th century.
The mention of bardolatry, a term coined by George Bernard Shaw—a Nobel Prize laureate in literature—is far from undue. On the contrary, it highlights a critical aspect of Shakespeare's legacy: the tension between reverence and critique. The modern reception of Shakespeare should include this nuanced perspective, especially given the transformative influence of Ibsen on drama and the contrasting views of T. S. Eliot, who found Shakespeare's "primitiveness" a hallmark of his enduring modernity. These contrasting views are crucial for understanding how Shakespeare's relevance has been debated in modern theatrical contexts.
To excise this material risks creating an overly hagiographic portrayal of Shakespeare. Misplaced Pages's objective is to present a balanced narrative, not one that veers into idolization by suppressing critical perspectives. Including this context acknowledges both Shakespeare's towering achievements and the evolving discourse about his place in literature.
The lead should reflect this nuanced understanding, which is consistent with the evidence presented in the body of the article. To ignore such discussions may inadvertently contribute to the very bardolatry that Shaw critiqued. --Msbmt (talk) 02:19, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
At the very least we should mention bardolatry somewhere. For example, The modern reception of Shakespeare reflects both admiration and critique, with George Bernard Shaw coining the term bardolatry to challenge excessive reverence. --Msbmt (talk) 02:44, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
The lead is meant to be a brief summary of key facts about a subject, proportional to their representation in the article body. Very often, it absolutely should not describe nuances of this kind as there is simply no time to do so without throwing the reader's initial assessment totally out of whack. Juxtaposing a well-cited claim with one that is contrary or dissenting but clearly less well represented is an antipattern. Such nuances belong in the body . Remsense ‥ 论06:01, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
Nobody is ignoring anything. The "bardolatory" criticism of Shaw is already mentioned in the Critical reputation section, which points to two, fuller, sub-articles where it is covered in greater detail. To lob an uncontextualised mention of Ibsen into the lead would be of no help to the reader. KJP1 (talk) 07:20, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
level-3 vital article is rated FA-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
