Misplaced Pages

Talk:Ahvaz: Difference between revisions

Article snapshot taken from Wikipedia with creative commons attribution-sharealike license. Give it a read and then ask your questions in the chat. We can research this topic together.
Browse history interactively← Previous editContent deleted Content addedVisualWikitext
Revision as of 10:31, 3 May 2005 editSouthernComfort (talk | contribs)6,757 edits →User who is trying to promote conflict← Previous edit Latest revision as of 23:11, 30 November 2024 edit undoHistoryofIran (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers97,262 edits adjustment 
(307 intermediate revisions by 81 users not shown)
Line 1: Line 1:
{{Talk header}}
If there's any debate about the nature of the British Ahwazi group, perhaps we should create a page for the organization and lay out the arguments for both sides, instead of trying to delete links or add editorial comments.
{{ITN talk|23 September|2018|oldid=860862799}}
{{WikiProject banner shell|class=C|vital=yes|1=
{{WikiProject Iran}}
{{WikiProject Cities}}
{{WikiProject Arab world|importance=Low}}
}}
{{archives}}


==Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment==
:I Agree.--] 23:21, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
] This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available ]. Student editor(s): ].


{{small|Above undated message substituted from ] by ] (]) 13:40, 16 January 2022 (UTC)}}
<hr>


== Ahvaz ==
'''Zora''',


Please stop adding that. ''"Al-Ahwaz"'' is a wrong name. Alefbe is right. --] (]) 05:22, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
We agreed to have a separate page for the Ahwazi separatist debate. We will then paste all your favorite pro-Ahwazi links there.


No, you are wrong. sources: , , , , , , . and it Pronounced as أحواز and also أهواز. ] (]) 20:31, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
I dont know why you insist on pasting those links here. You dont have any clue to our history, just as I dont know anything (or care) about the ] Hindi and Bengali separatist groups of ].
:www.alahwaz.org is run by a militant ultra-nationalist group which uses the term '''al-ahwaz''' to refer to Khuzestan. Here, we talk about the city, not about the Khuzestan province. ] (]) 20:43, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
:: أهواز is the official local name of the city in Arabic, I have reverted Mussav's edit. --] (]) 22:25, 25 May 2009 (UTC)


::: This is just one of the sites, what about the others? Al-Ahwaz tv? Al-Ahwaz radio? Al-Ahwaz studies?..etc there are diffrent orginazitions from Al-Ahwaz and all of them call it أحواز and الأهواز. ] (]) 03:08, 26 May 2009 (UTC) ] (]) 02:53, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
If you feel you sympathize so much with the cause of "Al-Ahwazi" separatists, please go ahead and contribute to the page ] like we agreed to, instead of reporting me to your buddy administrators.--] 21:13, 1 May 2005 (UTC)
::::All those websites are related to Ultra-nationalist groups which use the name '''Al-Ahwaz''' to refer to Khuzestan. This discussion is about the city, not the Khuzestan province. ] (]) 03:15, 26 May 2009 (UTC)


: So you are saying they call their province by the Arabic name أحواز and call their capital city by the Persian one? you don't make any sense. ] (]) 19:48, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
: I care when people are being oppressed, no matter who they are. I don't agree with separatists of any kind -- or nationalists of any kind. IMHO, nationalism is a nasty primate attitude that we should learn to transcend. Thus I'm unlikely to "sympathize" with people trying get their way through violence. However, I think we ought to tell it like it is, rather than pretend that unpleasant things don't exist. ] 22:52, 1 May 2005 (UTC)


I'm from Ahwaz and live in Ahwaz. It's Ahwaz(Ahvaz) اهواز city and Khuzestan خوزستان province. I don't know Arabic but I have never heard Al-Ahwaz here. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 14:18, 8 February 2011 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
#We can "tell it as it is", by making a special page for it, instead of dragging the debate to the Ahvaz page itself. Im OK with the ] link you posted.
I am from Ahwaz: Why in the wrticle it's all written Ahvaz? Ahwaz is the pleural form of Al-huz and is pronounced and should be written "Ahwaz" not "Ahvaz". There are many examples of such pleural forms like: Walad: Awlad (ولد: أولاد ) Wazn: Awzan (وزن : أوزان); Waraq: Awraq ( ورق : أوراق ); Watan: Awtan (وطن: أوطان ). This is how the original Arab Ahwazis are writing and pronouncing it. ] (]) 11:11, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
#Im not OK with the section on the "origin of the name Ahvaz" that you have almost blanked out to 3 to 4 sentences. That information is very pertinent.
#Arabs arent the only people in Iran who are having it rough. Iran's prisons of political dissidents are almost entirely filled up with Persians. Scenes like are quite ubiquitous in the heartland of Persia. Some people are however trying to fish out of muddy waters, and that's not cool.--] 00:31, 2 May 2005 (UTC)


==Siavash Ghomeyshi==
----
I've written an ] page.


Why is ] listed under a notable Ahvazi? His wikipedia page clearly indicates that he comes from ], not Ahvaz. I am going to remove him from the list.
As for the etymological analyses -- the writing in the section was extremely confusing, randomly jumping round the centuries. Citations from medieval etymologists are suspect, given that etymology (East, West, anywhere) used to be a matter of "Well, they sound similar to ME, I see a link". You can get from anywhere to anywhere by that method. Modern etymologists are much stricter in their methods. In fact, I'm thinking that the section should be cut down even further, eliminating the Elamite etymology, which is unsourced, and many of the alleged city names. I found citations only for Tarieana, Hormuzd-Ardashir, Suq-al-Ahwazi, Nazeiri, and Ahvaz (which I presume is the Persianized form of Ahwaz). Attempts to argue that Ahwaz/Ahvaz is actually a Persian name strike me as nationalist fantasies. The origin of the name, if it is Arab, doesn't alter the fact that the city seems to have been founded by people who were arguably "Persian" and that the city has been part of Persia for much -- but not all -- of its history.
] (]) 19:01, 1 April 2010 (UTC)


== Ahwaz / Ahvaz ==
I'd defer, of course, to any properly sourced citations from modern etymologists. Lacking those, cutting out the debatable material seems like the only honest course. ] 01:27, 2 May 2005 (UTC)


On September 30th, seeing that the majority of Ahvaz's inhabitants are Arabic speakers and that they had their own name (الأحواز)(romanized as al-ʾAḥwāz) for the city, I supplemented the article ] with the Arabic version as well as its Romanization. Note that this was a supplement, and not a substitution.
==Reply to Zora. Ahvaz ''IS'' Iranian.==
A few hours later an editor (Kathovo) undid my addition and referred to my contribution as "vandalism".
<br />
Many Israeli cities are found in Misplaced Pages which list both the Hebrew as well as the Arabic names of those cities (e.g. ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], etc), presumably on the basis that the Arabic names are used by the Arabic speaking population of those officially Hebrew speaking cities. <br />
I doubt that the addition of those Arabic versions of the names is the work of "vandals".


The situation with Ahwaz is the same. Although Ahwaz is undoubtedly controlled by Iran and currently falls within its borders, nevertheless its population is mainly Arabic speaking and there is an Arabic name for the city.
I will now debate you, not as a westerner, but as an Iranian who speaks the southern dialects prevalent in territories claimed by al-Ahwaz, where I was born, and as a native tongue.


In light of this, how can Kathovo justify calling my contribution, which consisted only of adding further accurate information to the article, "vandalism"?
*You said: ''Citations from medieval etymologists are suspect, given that etymology (East, West, anywhere) used to be a matter of "Well, they sound similar to ME, I see a link". You can get from anywhere to anywhere by that method. Modern etymologists are much stricter in their methods.''
<br />
<br />
P.S. Even distinguished Persian writer ], writing as recently as 2008 in his refers to the city by the romanization of its Arabic name. <br />
<br />
Why is supplementary information which is permissible in articles about Israeli cities being excluded in an article about an Iranian city? <br />
Thank you for your feedback and your consideration. --] (]) 17:48, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
:: Kathovo has given to re-add the Arabic name of al-Ahwaz to the article.--] (]) 20:36, 4 October 2013 (UTC)


S ] (]) 18:02, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
#Modern etymologists being more strict doesnt make the medieval ones wrong.
#Modern etymologists in fact base their conclusions on the collection of medieval accounts and studies. Without them, there is nothing to study.


Mehdi5441 ] (]) 18:02, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
*You said: ''In fact, I'm thinking that the section should be cut down even further, eliminating the Elamite etymology, which is unsourced''.


== Population ==
It is far from that in fact. I can give you as many sources as you like. That you dont find them acceptable is simply your POV.


Would someone please confirm the population of this city? How can it have 3 million people when its population in the list is nowhere NEAR that? I think this is wrong. I estimate the population based on size of its area and my knowledge to look like more like 1.1-1.3 million. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 05:50, 21 October 2013 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
If you studied Old Persian, you would realise that the cuneiform used was not an alphabet, but a cross between an abjad and a syllabary. U-W-J, also U-W-J-I-Y, U-J, U-J-I-Y is read /H&#363;jiya/; R. Kent (1953) writes that it appears incessantly in the cuneiform inscriptions, which explicitly equals "(h)altamti, (h)alamti". he also notes that the early middle persian form of the same word as /xuu&#378;/, which appears in the arab traveler's writings when describing xuuzii - the language or dialect of xuuz. with the usual ethnonymic addition of the ezade and -staan, c.f. siistaan 'saka-land' etc., we get modern persian Khouzestan /xuz-e stan/. The index of Kent lists UVJ as '''Elam''', but also lists in the *dictionary* section H&#363;(w)jiya "'Elamite, Susian'; derivation of preceding"; the preceding being H&#363;(w)ja "'Elam, Susiana', a province of the persian empire; also as ethnic, 'Elamite, Susian': Elam. hal-tam-tu, Akk. e-lam-mat, cf. MPers. Hu&#378;".


== mm ==
*You said: ''Ahvaz (which I presume is the Persianized form of Ahwaz).''


33 ] (]) 18:04, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
Your presumption is simply and firmly incorrect. It's the other way around. Would you like me to give you another analysis for that?


== Bakhtiari Lurish language ==
*You said: ''Attempts to argue that Ahwaz/Ahvaz is actually a Persian name strike me as nationalist fantasies.''


Based on ] and some other important references, Bakhtiari and Lurish people are third most popular ethnicity of Ahvaz . when you add Khozestani arabic you must add other popular native langs . unless you only suffice it to add only Official language of the country (Persian) and most popular native of the city. ] ] 13:00, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
The facts remain however, in spite of your opinion. The text you deleted is in fact derived from the publication of The Khuzestan Office of The Governor, held by Arabs by the way. I can give you Arabic citations for that.
:: {{Ping|‎AFlorence}} hello, come here lets talk and stop edit warring. please before reverting lets talk about it. ] is a major ethnicity in Ahwaz . if you want i can bring a referable references(es) for my claim ? (pls ping me if you want to discuss thanks) ] ] 14:41, 10 August 2016 (UTC)


== Climate chart ==
*You said: ''the city seems to have been founded by people who were arguably "Persian"''.


{{ping|Weneedwikipedia}} You have been explained this before: You cannot change the time range of the table in order to include a value from outside the range. There is no way to know which other values would have to be changed if the time range was different. --] (]) 06:24, 30 June 2017 (UTC)
Not "arguably". But ''Factually''. There are more archeological ruins in Khuzestan proving this than you can muster. The entire region was in fact Persian until the conquests. And the Persians never moved out. The Arabs came in.


== Etymology of "suq" ==
*You said: ''and that the city has been part of Persia for much -- but not all -- of its history.


Whenever you're finally finished with this lame semi-protected status, would you mind terribly correcting the etymology of "suq"? Cite ] or , or just get rid of the reference to its etymology since it's not only irrelevant but very silly. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 12:07, 5 October 2018 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
I'm curious, can you give me relaible sources for this claim? This is one example of a day-light fallacy.
: You should create an account for yourself and makes a few good edits with it. Then you won't be subject to semi-protection! ] (]) 22:07, 5 October 2018 (UTC)
: Misplaced Pages's community is some distance beyond repair, and I have better things to do in life than fight over every comma with idiots. So, no. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 08:08, 9 October 2018 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->


== Arabic names for Ahvaz ==
*You said: ''I'd defer, of course, to any properly sourced citations from modern etymologists. Lacking those, cutting out the debatable material seems like the only honest course.''


Why do anonymous users keep removing Arabic names for Ahvaz including الأهواز‎ and الأحواز from this article? ] (]) 14:34, 8 January 2020 (UTC)
Granted.
:On their ], they geolocate to Iran. There are various ethnic activists who come to Misplaced Pages to "set the record straight" according to their ideological principles. You can ignore them or report them to ] for edit warring if they repeat their behavior.--] (]) 03:15, 9 January 2020 (UTC)


== RfC on Ahvaz ==
Resources I have (grabbing randomly from the top of the pile): Kha&#269;ikjan Margaret (1998): Elamite Language. Deshpande & Hook eds. (1979): Aryan & Non-Aryan in India (article: McAlpin, "Linguistic Prehistory: The Dravidian Situation"). Webber & Belcher (eds.) (2003): Indus Ethnobiology: New Perspectives from the Field. Hole Frank (1987): The Archaeology of Western Iran: Settlement & Society from Prehistory to the Islamic Conquest (Smithsonian Series in Archaeological Inquiry).


why Ahvaz is refered to as "Ahwaz" ? why title is Ahvaz but still there are various references to "Ahwaz" ? ] (]) 03:46, 19 September 2021 (UTC)
I hope those will allay any concern you have over my resources.


why this article is within the scope of WikiProject Arab world ? Ahvaz is in Iran and Persians are majority in Ahvaz
Also,
] (]) 04:05, 19 September 2021 (UTC)


*'''Comment''': This is a bit of a malformed query - it needs to be expressed in a way that editors can respond with a supporting or opposing response. Asking a question is not the normal way to propose a RFC. Please see ]. ] (]) 06:25, 19 September 2021 (UTC)
Whereas your arguments simply have no academic merit, I'm putting back the section. --] 02:09, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
*This is not an RfC matter, it is clear that ] has not been observed. Taking each question in order: we choose the spelling according to the spelling used by reliable sources about the subject. Different sources will have used have different conventions for transliterating the Farsi script to the Latin script, and a "v"/"w" inconsistency is often found, because in some European languages, the letter "w" is pronounced as if it were the English "v". ] have the right to decide what is within their scope and what isn't; and this page does have the banner for ], also ]. Having an article fall within the scope of more than one WikiProject is quite commonplace. --] &#x1f339; (]) 06:54, 19 September 2021 (UTC)
**Thanks for your responses. ] (]) 07:39, 19 September 2021 (UTC)


== Discuss your edits ==
----


@] Your edits seem to be disruptive as you are deleting cited information about the mayor, removing elevation data, and adding an unsourced paragraph. ] &#124; ] &#124; 13:55, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
Your insistence on seeing "Persianness" millenia into the past is the usual nationalistic distortion of history. I imagine that if you were sent in a time machine back to ancient Elam that you'd find it completely alien. What are the salient features of "Persianness"? What makes the Elamites Persian? That's why I said that they were "arguably" Persian -- it's a debatable point.


:@] Let's start with Reza Amini, why are you removing his name from the Infobox, this is sourced information, what is your objection? ] &#124; ] &#124; 15:20, 1 November 2024 (UTC)
As to the region ALWAYS being Persian -- well, centuries of Arab rule rather counts against that, unless you've managed to convince yourself that the Ummayads and Abbasids sere Persians.


@]
Several of the books you've cited have nothing to do with Hormuzd-Ardashir/Ahvaz. India? Dravidians? The fact that you have a book about the Elamite language doesn't prove that the derivation of Ahvaz from Ooksin is plausible, unless you cite something to that effect from the book. Ditto the archaeology book. Does it discuss the etymology of Ahvaz? I'll give way happily to the experts.
Please STOP to tell me what's correct about my homeland and what is not correct! @]


== Huzi or Khuzi? ==
The quotes you give above re UWJ - xuuzi - Khuzi seem like a plausible etymology for Khuzestan. (Not that I could really tell without knowing the historical sound shift patterns.) But I fail to see any connection between Ahvaz/Ahwaz and Khuzi. It's Ahvaz that's in question, not Khuzi.


@] :
As to accepting medieval etymologies -- one has to distinguish between a dated citation showing that a city name was in use at a particular time, and a pre-scientific etymology, which is always a guess to be proven by more scientific methods. Linguists will always accept citations, and may choose to investigate pre-scientific etymological theories. But they may not. I have a number of older sources re Polynesia. One hundred years ago, authors who knew very little about the subject felt quite free to speculate about the derivation of Polynesian words and place names. No one even BOTHERS with Fornander and Reiter's etymologies any longer; they're just too bogus. You haven't shown that your medieval writers are any more trustworthy.


1: The original name of the native folk in the Susiana province was '''Huzi''' which was changed to '''Khuzi''' during the time. So, it's smart to use the correct form of the original name for the ancient time period, which was '''Huzi'''.
You've restored the section in all its garbled English glory. I'll let it sit for a day or two while I figure out what to do. Right now, I'll just point out that you seem to have misused the word "anagram". Perhaps you meant "acronym"? Do you have any evidence that the ancients used anagrams or acronyms to name their cities? I'm wondering if you may be thinking of modern terms like SF and LA, and extrapolating into the past. But without some citation of intermediate forms, it's just speculation.


On the other hand the plural form of Huzi in arabic language will be '''Ahvaz''', and this is the name that Arab immigrants gave to ''Hūjistān-wājār''.
The earliest use of an acronym that I know (just off the top of my head) was the Christian uses of the fish (ichthys in Greek) as a Christian symbol, because it stood for something like (Iesu Christo ... I forget the rest). But that was in the context of persecution, and picking a 'secret sign'. ] 03:04, 2 May 2005 (UTC)


Therefore, there were no Ahvaz or Avaz at all before Arabs! So the following part which has no source link, has no logical relation to the Ahvaz:
==Reply to Zora, Trying to change history==


''Ahvaz is the analog of "Avaz" and "Avaja" which appear in the Achaemenid emperor Darius's epigraph. This word also appears in the Naqsh-Rostam inscription as "Khaja" or "Khooja".''
*You said: ''Your insistence on seeing "Persianness" millenia into the past is the usual nationalistic distortion of history. I imagine that if you were sent in a time machine back to ancient Elam that you'd find it completely alien. What are the salient features of "Persianness"? What makes the Elamites Persian? That's why I said that they were "arguably" Persian -- it's a debatable point.''


'''It's not debatable''', no matter what you throw at me. In fact, '''you''' are supporting Pan-Arabist nationalism. To quote yet another text,


2: the Text about the population or something like that, which are variable, don't need to be entered in the main Description, so in the side table would be enough.--] (]) 17:33, 18 November 2024 (UTC)
::''The Elamites, fierce rivals of the Babylonians, were precursors of the Royal Persians''. Persians, Masters of Empire, John L. Papanek. ISBN 0-8094-9104-4


* You said: ''As to the region ALWAYS being Persian -- well, centuries of Arab rule rather counts against that, unless you've managed to convince yourself that the Ummayads and Abbasids sere Persians.''


#And who was there before them? Where do you think ] was?
#When the Arabs arrived, almost every city in Iraq was either Persian or is derived from a Persian name (Examples: read about ], ])
#The Abbaside + Umayid rule lasted only for 2 centruies over Iran. The Samanids brought back the Sassanid heritage with full vigor.
#The Abbaside dynasty was heavily Persianized itself. In the words of ]:


:Hi PayamAvarwand. I've removed the etymology as it was largely unsourced/poorly sourced. Feel free to re-create it with reliable, academic sources (]). Iranica (which is open access for everyone) probably has some info on it . Also, please see ] articles and ] on how ledes are written. ] (]) 00:00, 18 November 2024 (UTC)
::''It is clear however, that Iranians not only dominated the bureacracy, but all branches of The Abbasid government.'' Golden Age of Persia, p151.


The same is also stated by: D. Sourdel, Le Vizirat Abbaside. p699-723.


* You said: ''Several of the books you've cited have nothing to do with Hormuzd-Ardashir/Ahvaz. India? Dravidians? The fact that you have a book about the Elamite language doesn't prove that the derivation of Ahvaz from Ooksin is plausible, unless you cite something to that effect from the book.


Hi @], I have changed the Sources, although the entire content need correct sources or corrections, but some of false sources are from old versions, which I have not added/removed them!
#Wrong. Read them before giving me an answer. The books in fact talk about the non-semitic, hence non-Arabic language of the Elamites.
#The Khuzi language was in fact used in the courts of the Persian Empire, as is reported in the Al-fihrist, quoted by Ibn Moghaffa', Richard Frye, and many others. Where do you think ] was?


I have removed the following part, because I think they are not a big matter to a huge power like Iran, and by publishing about them, I am just giving them more free attention:
:: Look, if you can't come up with cites from the books you have confirming your derivation, then you don't get away with just telling me to read the books, it's in there. That leads me to suspect that you can't find any cites because it's NOT there, and you're just trying to muddy the waters -- like a squid squirting ink to cover its escape. You have the burden of proof, not me.


''After a separatist group attempted to alter and divide southwestern Iran during the years 2005 to 2020, starting with changing the name of the city of "Ahwaz/Ahvaz" to something else with the "W"-version, the spelling of the city's name was officially changed to "Ahvaz".
:: The derivation of the town name is of antiquarian interest only; not knowing where the town's name came from doesn't detract from the article in the slightest, from the general information point of view. You want the derivation to prove that Ahvaz was Persian first, Persian forever, Persian in name always, rah rah rah. That's just silly. There are many towns in England, frex, with names that were Roman or Danish in origin. Does pointing that out mean that I want Italy or Denmark to conquer Britain? I don't think so. I don't know Arabic, so I don't know what Ahwazi might mean in Arabic. For all I know, it's a nasty ethnic slur that the Arab tribes used for the traders whom they believed were fleecing them. Maybe it means "penny-pinching rascal". Maybe they called the city "Suq al-Ahwaz" BEFORE the conquest, and once they were in charge, kept on using the name, the conquered being in no condition to object. If that's the case, so what? Does it mean that the city rightfully belongs to Iraq? I don't think so.
''
:Sorry, but you're not listening. You need to cite ], not random websites, which you largely did. And that's still not how you write ledes. Please don't ], and please add a signature when you're adding your comment. --] (]) 00:39, 18 November 2024 (UTC)


:: Given that you can't cite anything concrete re the derivation of the name, why not just leave out the whole discussion? You haven't cited anyone but yourself in supporting the derivations, so the question doesn't seem to be of great and universal interest. It imbalances the article. It's extraneous.


I can not listen the texts, I can read them!
:: As for arguing that the Abbasids were "Persian" -- well, all the scholars agree that Islamic civilization was heavily influenced by the Persians -- and also by the Arabs, and the conquered Greeks. The influences went in all directions. That's part of what made it a "Golden Age". My Persian literature text says that Modern Persian (post-Islamic-conquest) was heavily influenced by Arabic, and contains not only imported vocabulary, but imported syntax. So it seems rather beside the point to point to the influences going from Persia to the caliphate, and ignore the influences coming into Persia from the caliphate.
I can trust the following websites, and I used them as sources and I advise to trust them too, I will work on my text more exact and will add them:


https://www.ahvaz.ir/
* ''But I fail to see any connection between Ahvaz/Ahwaz and Khuzi. It's Ahvaz that's in question, not Khuzi.''


https://www.iranicaonline.org/
Really? If Khuzestan is Iranian (and is connected to pre-Arab Iran), how can its member parts (like Ahvaz) not be Iranian?


] 03:18, 18 November 2024 (CET)
: The derivation of a city's name has NOTHING to do with whether or not it ''should'' be counted part of one country or another. Nothing. I don't see why you're so determined on this. ]
:First citation is not ]. --] (]) 02:44, 18 November 2024 (UTC)


*You said: ''You haven't shown that your medieval writers are any more trustworthy.''


That's funny! There are outdated false information on the Page of Ahvaz, and WP:RS allowes you guys to remove my neutral information, which has a high probability of being correct, and we know there are source for them. It's only the matter of time to search and add.--] (]) 17:32, 18 November 2024 (UTC)
Your opinion. Plain and simple.


:Sigh... please just read ], ] and ]. No one is plotting against you or Ahvaz. I'm trying to help here. This article is in a messy state indeed, but that doesn't mean it should become even more messy. ] (]) 21:28, 18 November 2024 (UTC)
#I dont have to prove anything to you. I can name dozens of sources that are widely accepted. Only, you seem to be oblivious about them, and reluctant to accept anything written before the 20th century as reliable.
::@] needs evaluation. ] &#124; ] &#124; 17:45, 24 November 2024 (UTC)
#The burden of proof is actually on you to prove that Ahvaz was not part of Persia, and is Arab in origin.
:::Unfortunately not an improvement, same type of edit as earlier. Last try, {{ping|PayamAvarwand}} did you read ] and ]? ] (]) 21:29, 24 November 2024 (UTC)
:@] The source iranoilgas.com, cited for the list of factories, does not even mention Ahvaz. Additionally, the reliability of this source is questionable. Please stop reverting and establish consensus on this matter. ] &#124; ] &#124; 21:33, 18 November 2024 (UTC)


*You said: ''You've restored the section in all its garbled English glory. I'll let it sit for a day or two while I figure out what to do.''


You wont. First, go learn our language, then give your expert opinion about our culture. You dont even seem to know the difference between the Arabic w and Persian v appearing in the texts.


== Problem with add information! ==
Look. I really dont have time for this nonsense. Youre trying to change something way out of your league. And it takes me 2 hours to write you a reply that you never accept anyway.


what is wrong? @] ] (]) 22:20, 24 November 2024 (UTC)
You simply cant revise history, no matter how hard you try. And even if I'm not here, someone else will keep revisionists like you from tailoring history to their opininated whims.--] 04:30, 2 May 2005 (UTC)


:Did you read ] and ]? ] (]) 22:22, 24 November 2024 (UTC)
== Historical debate ==
:You are removing well-sourced information and adding content that is not backed by reliable sources. ] &#124; ] &#124; 22:43, 24 November 2024 (UTC)


------
I am of the same opinion as Zora. However, this is meant to be an encyclopaedia and all sides have to be represented. The historical debate is an important one and has to be reported without bias. I therefore think that we should work together to bring both sides of the argument - as there evidently is a dispute over Ahwaz - instead of acting divisively and unilaterally, deleting text and links without discussion or adequate reasoning. Perhaps we can have a short section for either side of the argument, accompanied by links to relevant sites.]
@]:
Did you verify exactly which fucking Texts I have removed? Have you checked if it was a duplicated or an outdated information?


]:
== Dear Zora ==
I read that days ago! What was the violation this time?
--] (]) 23:31, 24 November 2024 (UTC)


:Let's start with ] then, can you explain it? ] (]) 23:40, 24 November 2024 (UTC)
I've read the debate several times but I couldnt figure out what do you want to say.Well I've been to Ahvaz and lived there for like a month. I had alot of interaction with people there as I have many both Khuzestani persian and minority arab friends.
( I've studied its history in depth from Elamite Empire to now for one of my projects about historic city of ] )
So I would want to ask some questions about its ethnic arab population :


1.Do you know where and when did they come to Khuzestan ?


Please do not answer my question with question!
2.where did they historically settle ?


I hope you're not meaning the issue is the persian source for an english page are not acceptable! As far as I know, it must be ok!
3.What have been their main profession ?
--] (]) 00:30, 25 November 2024 (UTC)


:Your edits do not demonstrate that you read it. Neither does your reply to me, my issue is not that the source is Persian. Can you explain ] to start with? ] (]) 01:25, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
4.When and why did they settle in Ahvaz ?--]


]:
: You seem to assuming that Arabic-speakers are necessarily of Arab descent and thus recent arrivals, settlers, in a historically Persian area. Not necessarily so. People adopt the language of their conquerors. Most of the population of the Middle East isn't of pure Arabian descent. Over time, many of the dhimmis converted to Islam and as was the custom of the time, were taken into one of the Arab tribes as a client. So it is very likely that many of the Arabs that you clearly see as "them" are in fact descended from the same stock that lived there during Achaemenid and Sassanid times.
And WHAT is your fucking task? To boasting that you read the ], ] and ] ?
If you read that rules, you can PLEASE correct my contents, not to remove them? This is obvious that you are a narcissistic sick person, who is hidden behind the name of IRAN.--] (]) 23:01, 30 November 2024 (UTC)


:So you did not read any of them, despite initially claiming so. No one is going to clean up after you because you don't want to read/understand the policies of this website. If you can't make a constructive edit, then please don't edit. And you've been told to refrain from personal attacks, yet you did it here again, and thus the last bit of ] has run out. ] (]) 23:09, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
: Given that the borders of the area now known as Khuzestan have been shifting back and forth for centuries, it is not at all surprising that the population of the area should form a continuuum with the rest of the population of the lower Mesopotamian valley, rather than there being a sharp discontinuity at the current border. That can be so without the Arabs being "interlopers" and recent immigrants to the current province.

: As for the rest of your questions -- based only on my current reading, the Arabs in Ahvaz immigrated from the villages to work in the oil and steel industries, and they are concentrated in the lesser-skilled, manual labor jobs. Given that Ahvaz had become a mere village before it grew again to its present size, just about everyone in Ahvaz is an immigrant. ] 17:28, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

I see more bold erroneous statements made here and on the main page. I'll have to come in and fix them again. For the time being, I have too much going on this week. Can only drop by intermittently. Gotta keep the advisor happy.--] 07:38, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

==The origin of the name ''Ahvaz''==
''I have restored Zereshk's original text as it is the most NPOV and factually correct and placed this disputed version by Zora, with Zereshk's comments'' ] 10:29, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

Is Ahvaz derived from the Arabic Ahwaz, or is Ahwaz the Arabic pronunciation of the Persian word Ahvaz? ''''

This apparently minor question '''' has provoked some online controversy, with Persian nationalists '''' insisting that "Ahvaz" was the original Persian name, and that Ahwaz is just an Arabic version. They say that a 12th century Arab named Abu-Mansoor Javalighi wrote:

:''Ahvaz is the name of an Iranian city which its Persian name has been Arabicized and the Arabs have accepted the Persian dictation of the word.''

The translation is clumsy '''', no verifiable source is given '''', and the name of the source seems to have been transcribed by a non-Arabic speaker ''''. Why a historian writing five hundred years after the adoption of the name should be a trusted source is unclear. ''''

Arab Ahwazi separatists '''' have argued that Ahwaz is a version of the Arabic Ahawaz.''''

: '' ... the word of Alahwaz is ploral of the word of the HOZ and in arabic the root of the HOZ is HAZ that means "To own and to pessess in the same time," as it's used in Alahwaz during the people's conversations (dialogues) as they say "This is the hoz of such as a person and the other is the hoz of some one else, that mean the land with the known border belonges to that person".'' http://www.alahwaz.org/618.htm]

''''

However, an etymology triumphantly put forward in a political argument, without historical citations or any support from a trained linguist, is also suspect. ''''

Apparently, there are no citations of any use of the terms Ahwaz or Ahvaz before the Arab conquest in 630 C.E. Before that, the city was known as Hormuzd-Ardashir, or shortened versions thereof. Arab histories describe the newly conquered town as the Suq-al-Ahwaz, the Bazaar of Ahwaz (referring to the destruction of part of the city, and the survival of the commercial section). Lacking any citations or contemporary inscriptions, it seems to yet other observers that there is not enough evidence, one way or another, to decide whether Ahwaz/Ahvaz was originally an Arabic or a Middle Persian word '']''... nor is it clear why the name's etymology is so important that nationalists and separatists should quarrel about it.''''

== User who is trying to promote conflict ==

Zereshk's original version of the above section was NPOV and factually accurate as it was. Anyone who doubts the veracity of his additions is welcome to reference any major encyclopedia or academic text concerning the history of Iran. Zora, for whatever reason, has decided to promote a fringe view that is not accepted by any academic or scholarly source, and this is most certainly not in accordance with the spirit of Misplaced Pages. It must also be said that it is painfully obvious from some of Zora's edits on this page and others related to Khuzestan that her knowledge of this province and it's history, as well as the history of Iran, is limited and one speculates as to what agenda she has in mind when irrationally attacking legitimate and accepted facts. ] 10:31, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 23:11, 30 November 2024

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Ahvaz article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.
Article policies
Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL
Archives: 1
In the newsA news item involving Ahvaz was featured on Misplaced Pages's Main Page in the In the news section on 23 September 2018.
Misplaced Pages
Misplaced Pages
This  level-4 vital article is rated C-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:
WikiProject iconIran
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Iran, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to articles related to Iran on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please join the project where you can contribute to the discussions and help with our open tasks.IranWikipedia:WikiProject IranTemplate:WikiProject IranIran
???This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.
WikiProject iconCities
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Cities, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of cities, towns and various other settlements on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.CitiesWikipedia:WikiProject CitiesTemplate:WikiProject CitiesWikiProject Cities
WikiProject iconArab world Low‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Arab world, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the Arab world on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Arab worldWikipedia:WikiProject Arab worldTemplate:WikiProject Arab worldArab world
LowThis article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Archives
Archive 1

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Abbasyarali.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 13:40, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Ahvaz

Please stop adding that. "Al-Ahwaz" is a wrong name. Alefbe is right. --Wayiran (talk) 05:22, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

No, you are wrong. sources: , , , , , , . and it Pronounced as أحواز and also أهواز. Mussav (talk) 20:31, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

www.alahwaz.org is run by a militant ultra-nationalist group which uses the term al-ahwaz to refer to Khuzestan. Here, we talk about the city, not about the Khuzestan province. Alefbe (talk) 20:43, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
أهواز is the official local name of the city in Arabic, I have reverted Mussav's edit. --Kurdo777 (talk) 22:25, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
This is just one of the sites, what about the others? Al-Ahwaz tv? Al-Ahwaz radio? Al-Ahwaz studies?..etc there are diffrent orginazitions from Al-Ahwaz and all of them call it أحواز and الأهواز. Mussav (talk) 03:08, 26 May 2009 (UTC) Mussav (talk) 02:53, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
All those websites are related to Ultra-nationalist groups which use the name Al-Ahwaz to refer to Khuzestan. This discussion is about the city, not the Khuzestan province. Alefbe (talk) 03:15, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
So you are saying they call their province by the Arabic name أحواز and call their capital city by the Persian one? you don't make any sense. Mussav (talk) 19:48, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm from Ahwaz and live in Ahwaz. It's Ahwaz(Ahvaz) اهواز city and Khuzestan خوزستان province. I don't know Arabic but I have never heard Al-Ahwaz here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.144.142.89 (talk) 14:18, 8 February 2011 (UTC) I am from Ahwaz: Why in the wrticle it's all written Ahvaz? Ahwaz is the pleural form of Al-huz and is pronounced and should be written "Ahwaz" not "Ahvaz". There are many examples of such pleural forms like: Walad: Awlad (ولد: أولاد ) Wazn: Awzan (وزن : أوزان); Waraq: Awraq ( ورق : أوراق ); Watan: Awtan (وطن: أوطان ). This is how the original Arab Ahwazis are writing and pronouncing it. Faraghati (talk) 11:11, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

Siavash Ghomeyshi

Why is Siavash Ghomeyshi listed under a notable Ahvazi? His wikipedia page clearly indicates that he comes from Dezful, not Ahvaz. I am going to remove him from the list. Bozium (talk) 19:01, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Ahwaz / Ahvaz

On September 30th, seeing that the majority of Ahvaz's inhabitants are Arabic speakers and that they had their own name (الأحواز)(romanized as al-ʾAḥwāz) for the city, I supplemented the article Ahvaz with the Arabic version as well as its Romanization. Note that this was a supplement, and not a substitution. A few hours later an editor (Kathovo) undid my addition and referred to my contribution as "vandalism".
Many Israeli cities are found in Misplaced Pages which list both the Hebrew as well as the Arabic names of those cities (e.g. Nazareth, Acre, Haifa, Jaffa, Tel Aviv, Ashdod, Beersheba, Ashkelon, etc), presumably on the basis that the Arabic names are used by the Arabic speaking population of those officially Hebrew speaking cities.
I doubt that the addition of those Arabic versions of the names is the work of "vandals".

The situation with Ahwaz is the same. Although Ahwaz is undoubtedly controlled by Iran and currently falls within its borders, nevertheless its population is mainly Arabic speaking and there is an Arabic name for the city.

In light of this, how can Kathovo justify calling my contribution, which consisted only of adding further accurate information to the article, "vandalism"?

P.S. Even distinguished Persian writer Abbas Mīlānī, writing as recently as 2008 in his Eminent Persians : the men and women who made modern Iran, 1941 - 1979 Vol. 1 refers to the city by the romanization of its Arabic name.

Why is supplementary information which is permissible in articles about Israeli cities being excluded in an article about an Iranian city?
Thank you for your feedback and your consideration. --أخوها (talk) 17:48, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

Kathovo has given permission to re-add the Arabic name of al-Ahwaz to the article.--أخوها (talk) 20:36, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

S Mehdi5441 (talk) 18:02, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

Mehdi5441 Mehdi5441 (talk) 18:02, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

Population

Would someone please confirm the population of this city? How can it have 3 million people when its population in the list is nowhere NEAR that? I think this is wrong. I estimate the population based on size of its area and my knowledge to look like more like 1.1-1.3 million. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.91.170.94 (talk) 05:50, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

mm

33 Mehdi5441 (talk) 18:04, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

Bakhtiari Lurish language

Based on Iranica and some other important references, Bakhtiari and Lurish people are third most popular ethnicity of Ahvaz . when you add Khozestani arabic you must add other popular native langs . unless you only suffice it to add only Official language of the country (Persian) and most popular native of the city. Amir Muhammad 13:00, 1 August 2016 (UTC)

@AFlorence: hello, come here lets talk and stop edit warring. please before reverting lets talk about it. Bakhtiari Lurish is a major ethnicity in Ahwaz . if you want i can bring a referable references(es) for my claim ? (pls ping me if you want to discuss thanks) The Stray Dog by Sadeq Hedayat 14:41, 10 August 2016 (UTC)

Climate chart

@Weneedwikipedia: You have been explained this before: You cannot change the time range of the table in order to include a value from outside the range. There is no way to know which other values would have to be changed if the time range was different. --T*U (talk) 06:24, 30 June 2017 (UTC)

Etymology of "suq"

Whenever you're finally finished with this lame semi-protected status, would you mind terribly correcting the etymology of "suq"? Cite wikt:سوق or , or just get rid of the reference to its etymology since it's not only irrelevant but very silly. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.122.48.173 (talk) 12:07, 5 October 2018 (UTC)

You should create an account for yourself and makes a few good edits with it. Then you won't be subject to semi-protection! Plandu (talk) 22:07, 5 October 2018 (UTC)
Misplaced Pages's community is some distance beyond repair, and I have better things to do in life than fight over every comma with idiots. So, no. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.122.48.173 (talk) 08:08, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

Arabic names for Ahvaz

Why do anonymous users keep removing Arabic names for Ahvaz including الأهواز‎ and الأحواز from this article? 197.60.81.2 (talk) 14:34, 8 January 2020 (UTC)

On their , they geolocate to Iran. There are various ethnic activists who come to Misplaced Pages to "set the record straight" according to their ideological principles. You can ignore them or report them to WP:AIV for edit warring if they repeat their behavior.--Quisqualis (talk) 03:15, 9 January 2020 (UTC)

RfC on Ahvaz

why Ahvaz is refered to as "Ahwaz" ? why title is Ahvaz but still there are various references to "Ahwaz" ? 5.115.182.81 (talk) 03:46, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

why this article is within the scope of WikiProject Arab world ? Ahvaz is in Iran and Persians are majority in Ahvaz 5.115.182.81 (talk) 04:05, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

  • Comment: This is a bit of a malformed query - it needs to be expressed in a way that editors can respond with a supporting or opposing response. Asking a question is not the normal way to propose a RFC. Please see WP:RFC. Deathlibrarian (talk) 06:25, 19 September 2021 (UTC)
  • This is not an RfC matter, it is clear that WP:RFCBEFORE has not been observed. Taking each question in order: we choose the spelling according to the spelling used by reliable sources about the subject. Different sources will have used have different conventions for transliterating the Farsi script to the Latin script, and a "v"/"w" inconsistency is often found, because in some European languages, the letter "w" is pronounced as if it were the English "v". WP:WikiProject Arab world have the right to decide what is within their scope and what isn't; and this page does have the banner for WP:WikiProject Iran, also WP:WikiProject Cities. Having an article fall within the scope of more than one WikiProject is quite commonplace. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 06:54, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

Discuss your edits

@PayamAvarwand Your edits seem to be disruptive as you are deleting cited information about the mayor, removing elevation data, and adding an unsourced paragraph. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 13:55, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

@PayamAvarwand Let's start with Reza Amini, why are you removing his name from the Infobox, this is sourced information, what is your objection? Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 15:20, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

@Sheriff Please STOP to tell me what's correct about my homeland and what is not correct! @PayamAvarwand

Huzi or Khuzi?

@Sheriff :

1: The original name of the native folk in the Susiana province was Huzi which was changed to Khuzi during the time. So, it's smart to use the correct form of the original name for the ancient time period, which was Huzi.

On the other hand the plural form of Huzi in arabic language will be Ahvaz, and this is the name that Arab immigrants gave to Hūjistān-wājār.

Therefore, there were no Ahvaz or Avaz at all before Arabs! So the following part which has no source link, has no logical relation to the Ahvaz:

Ahvaz is the analog of "Avaz" and "Avaja" which appear in the Achaemenid emperor Darius's epigraph. This word also appears in the Naqsh-Rostam inscription as "Khaja" or "Khooja".


2: the Text about the population or something like that, which are variable, don't need to be entered in the main Description, so in the side table would be enough.--PayamAvarwand (talk) 17:33, 18 November 2024 (UTC)


Hi PayamAvarwand. I've removed the etymology as it was largely unsourced/poorly sourced. Feel free to re-create it with reliable, academic sources (WP:RS). Iranica (which is open access for everyone) probably has some info on it . Also, please see WP:GA articles and WP:LEDE on how ledes are written. HistoryofIran (talk) 00:00, 18 November 2024 (UTC)


Hi @HistoryofIran, I have changed the Sources, although the entire content need correct sources or corrections, but some of false sources are from old versions, which I have not added/removed them!

I have removed the following part, because I think they are not a big matter to a huge power like Iran, and by publishing about them, I am just giving them more free attention:

After a separatist group attempted to alter and divide southwestern Iran during the years 2005 to 2020, starting with changing the name of the city of "Ahwaz/Ahvaz" to something else with the "W"-version, the spelling of the city's name was officially changed to "Ahvaz".

Sorry, but you're not listening. You need to cite WP:RS, not random websites, which you largely did. And that's still not how you write ledes. Please don't WP:EDITWAR, and please add a signature when you're adding your comment. --HistoryofIran (talk) 00:39, 18 November 2024 (UTC)


I can not listen the texts, I can read them! I can trust the following websites, and I used them as sources and I advise to trust them too, I will work on my text more exact and will add them:

https://www.ahvaz.ir/

https://www.iranicaonline.org/

Payam A. 03:18, 18 November 2024 (CET)

First citation is not WP:RS. --HistoryofIran (talk) 02:44, 18 November 2024 (UTC)


That's funny! There are outdated false information on the Page of Ahvaz, and WP:RS allowes you guys to remove my neutral information, which has a high probability of being correct, and we know there are source for them. It's only the matter of time to search and add.--PayamAvarwand (talk) 17:32, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

Sigh... please just read WP:RS, WP:LEDE and WP:EDITWARRING. No one is plotting against you or Ahvaz. I'm trying to help here. This article is in a messy state indeed, but that doesn't mean it should become even more messy. HistoryofIran (talk) 21:28, 18 November 2024 (UTC)
@HistoryofIran This edit needs evaluation. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 17:45, 24 November 2024 (UTC)
Unfortunately not an improvement, same type of edit as earlier. Last try, @PayamAvarwand: did you read WP:RS and WP:LEDE? HistoryofIran (talk) 21:29, 24 November 2024 (UTC)
@PayamAvarwand The source iranoilgas.com, cited for the list of factories, does not even mention Ahvaz. Additionally, the reliability of this source is questionable. Please stop reverting and establish consensus on this matter. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 21:33, 18 November 2024 (UTC)


Problem with add information!

what is wrong? @Sheriff PayamAvarwand (talk) 22:20, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

Did you read WP:RS and WP:LEDE? HistoryofIran (talk) 22:22, 24 November 2024 (UTC)
You are removing well-sourced information and adding content that is not backed by reliable sources. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 22:43, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

@Sheriff: Did you verify exactly which fucking Texts I have removed? Have you checked if it was a duplicated or an outdated information?

HistoryofIran: I read that days ago! What was the violation this time? --PayamAvarwand (talk) 23:31, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

Let's start with WP:LEDE then, can you explain it? HistoryofIran (talk) 23:40, 24 November 2024 (UTC)


Please do not answer my question with question!

I hope you're not meaning the issue is the persian source for an english page are not acceptable! As far as I know, it must be ok! --PayamAvarwand (talk) 00:30, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

Your edits do not demonstrate that you read it. Neither does your reply to me, my issue is not that the source is Persian. Can you explain WP:LEDE to start with? HistoryofIran (talk) 01:25, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

HistoryofIran: And WHAT is your fucking task? To boasting that you read the WP:RS, WP:LEDE and WP:EDITWARRING ? If you read that rules, you can PLEASE correct my contents, not to remove them? This is obvious that you are a narcissistic sick person, who is hidden behind the name of IRAN.--PayamAvarwand (talk) 23:01, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

So you did not read any of them, despite initially claiming so. No one is going to clean up after you because you don't want to read/understand the policies of this website. If you can't make a constructive edit, then please don't edit. And you've been told to refrain from personal attacks, yet you did it here again, and thus the last bit of WP:ROPE has run out. HistoryofIran (talk) 23:09, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
Categories: