Misplaced Pages

Latest revision as of 11:46, 7 March 2023

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Consensus to keep clear, closing early. 20:33, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Estonian Age of Awakening

Estonian Age of Awakening (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

I decided to withdraw the nomination, as at least one reference has been provided during the AfD process. --Ghirla 11:18, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

You crossed out your withdrawal. What does it mean -- are you now withdrawing the withdrawal and re-endorsing the nomination? Digwuren 14:14, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Based on the the suspicion that the "abandon the trollfest in disgust" remark below might mean Ghirlandajo is not coming back to this nomination page, I also presented this question to his talk page. He proceeded to promptly delete my question without any further comment.

This appears to leave the nomination in limbo. Should we ask the administrators to determine its fate? Seeing the consensus, the most appropriate outcome would appear to be a speedy close of the AfD. Digwuren 16:15, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

I have requested administrator assistance in this matter. Digwuren 20:27, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

After I nominated this stub for deletion, I found myself the victim to a campaign of persecution and harrassment organized by a group of well-known extremist editors whose activities are coordinated from Estonian Misplaced Pages. After User:Petri Krohn stepped in to improve the article and demonstrated that the concept was recently introduced as a "historical construct" in some obscure Estonian publications, I withdrew my nomination. Nevertheless, people with a certain ideological background kept harrassing me in droves, throwing accusations of "bad faith" on my talk page, and three more persons added their votes to the inactive nomination by this point. My attempts to close the nomination were reverted. This prompts me to abandon the trollfest in disgust. --Ghirla 12:02, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

I would like to see rule that prohibits people adding their opinion before official closing by admin. Also I find personal attacks like well-known extremist editors highly inappropriate.--Staberinde 12:10, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

I am glad you saw the light but need to point out that the difference presented is not mere addition of a source but replacement of an Estonica link with its English translation. Digwuren 11:26, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

I went through the history of this nomination, and I must point out that there have been no "attempts to close the nomination" by Ghirlandajo, at least as of now. Thus, the accusations of "reverting" those attempts, directed towards unnamed persons, are baseless. I'm having concerns this kind of knowing 'communication of falsehoods' might be inconsistent with commonly accepted standards of civil behaviour. Digwuren 16:10, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

• Archetypal original research. The term has no currency in English-language historical literature. Seems to have been coined by the author of this article. Misplaced Pages is not a proper place for introducing neologisms. --Ghirla 20:31, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

• Delete. --Ghirla 20:32, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

BTW, note the tiny difference in search term and difference in results. --Alexia Death 22:53, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Search for disparate terms does not prove anything. This is beyond discussion. --Ghirla 22:57, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Look at the first book it points to. It talks about this very period.--Alexia Death 23:00, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Also gives to references to "Age of awakening" in the context of Estonians. I hpe this makes you see that I have not made this term up.--Alexia Death 23:04, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

• Strong Keep The term is a direct translation from Estonian "Ärkamisaeg". It is used pessistently in estonian literature and history books. google search shows it a lot. I do not understand the desire to remove this stub. IT needs expanding but has nothing that warrants deletion.--Alexia Death 22:49, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

If anything is wrong with the title and the current one is not considered to be proper English term then a move is in order, not an AFD. The period on question is in now way "coined by the author of this article". I learned about it from my history books in school.--Alexia Death 23:00, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

• Keep this search produces some results so the stub has chances to develop into something useful Alex Bakharev 01:29, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Language-related deletions. -- John Vandenberg 02:16, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
• Keep It's clearly a term that's used in Estonian literature and so the nominator's rationale for deletion - that it was a neologism invented by the article's creator - is false. Nick mallory 04:18, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
• Keep - needs huge improvement, but if this is indeed a translation of Ärkamisaeg, then the subject itself is notable, valid, backed up by references, etc. Biruitorul 06:06, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

• I speak both Estonian and English, and I can vouch for 'Age of Awakening' being the translation of 'Ärkamisaeg'. 'Estonian' is a qualifier to distinguish this phenomenon from other Ages of Awakening. The main translation field is (Age|Era|Time|Period) of Awakening|. (Standard BNF rules apply.) Digwuren 09:03, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

• Keep as a term with what appears to be considerable currency in Estonian-language sources regarding a verifiable time period. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 06:26, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

This is an English language encyclopaedia. If a wikipedian likes to introduce a new term into English historiography, this constitutes a breach of WP:NOR. No evidence has been presented that the term is notable in English-language publications. --Ghirla 08:11, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

I understand it's the English-language Misplaced Pages, however the point I'm making refers to the fact that the subject matter itself is notable. The exact article title can be hashed out elsewhere (do we want it in Estonian, in the same way as events which are of significance to other nationalities are frequently titled in their languages? Do we want it in English under this title, assuming it to be the best translation from the Estonian original? Do we want it in English and under another title, as a contributor below is arguing, on the grounds that a better translation exists?), but that's not important here. If something is notable, it's notable. It's always better to have English-language sources to prove that in an English-language encyclopedia, but in lieu thereof, sources in a different language which do the same are A-OK. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 09:37, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Translation doesn't constitute original research, or we should delete half of Misplaced Pages's articles. As to No evidence has been presented that the term is notable in English-language publications -- I have never seen such a requirement in WP rules. Colchicum 12:00, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

• Keep. Clearly bad-faith AfD nomination. DLX 07:40, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

  User warned. --Ghirla 08:05, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

• The warning is clearly frivolous. Digwuren 16:17, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

• Keep Oy, forget exactly what it's called - that's why we have redirects. By now it's clear that this period exists as a historical construct, and it's possible to write intelligent prose about it. But this is most definitely NOT a bad-faith nom; given those web search results, I would have listed it myself. :) YechielMan 08:16, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

• You're speaking from a position of contextlessness. If it was true that Ghirlandajo was in a similar position, WP:AGF would be in order. However, he is not; he has shown consistent interest in Estonia-related topics and thus, can be reasonably expected to know about one of the major periods of history of Estonia. (For a brief overview, see History of Estonia#Part of Imperial Russia.) Thus, he has knowingly made a false nomination for deletion. Digwuren 09:03, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

• Keep, as per DLX. Ghirlandajo's bad faith is, for example, displayed in wanton quotation marks in the Google query provided. Digwuren 09:03, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
• Keep per BigHaz. Incidentally, I don't think this is a bad-faith nom either. Ford MF 09:27, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
• Keep, I have moved the article to Estonian national awakening and provided some references. I can fully understand Ghirla's suspicion, many of the editors now promoting this article, have so far contributed very little usefull or NPOV material to Misplaced Pages. I still think their edits should be followed closely. -- Petri Krohn 09:32, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

I seriously think that you should actualy ask opinions of other editors before making such hasty moves of actively discussed articles.--Staberinde 11:32, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

• Keep, subject clearly deserves article, title may need some discussion.--Staberinde 11:27, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
• Keep, the subject is notable enough, per Misplaced Pages:Notability, but the title is problematic. --SunStar Net 11:30, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
• Keep per above. See also National awakening of Romania, Latvian National Awakening, Armenian national awakening in the Ottoman Empire, National awakening of the ethnic Macedonians, National awakening of Bulgaria, National awakening and the birth of Albania etc. It would be very suspicious if Estonian national awakening didn't exist, so I have to agree with DLX. As to the titles, both are perfectly ok, as "the Estonian Age of Awakening" is the most natural translation of the Estonian term, while "Estonian national awakening" is modelled after all these. Colchicum 11:53, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

  "It would be very suspicious if Estonian national awakening didn't exist"? Words fail me. The whole concept of "national awakening" is an outgrowth from the tenets of Romantic Nationalism. Once Scotland gains independence from the Great Britain, you will learn that there has been the "Great Age of Scottish Awakening" between 1990 and 2010. A decade later, you will learn about the "Age of Texan Awakening" between 2010 and 2020, if Texas is lucky enough to break away from the US. That's how such "historical constructs" are made. The process is similar to an assembly line. In retrospect, every nation considers it proper to have a "national awakening" at some of its history, although the nation's independence may have been a matter of sheer luck or, as in the present case, Lenin's complaints about the "prison of nations" coupled with the Germans' desire to set up a puppet statelet immediately to the west from the Russian capital. --Ghirla 12:26, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Your inability to understand the way small nations have awakened to their national identity is understandable, as you belong to a great nation that awakened so far back that it is hard to have any sources on it. The independence is the goal for a nation obtained in awakening. It is not always achieved. Scots have been awake and felt like a nation for ages. They have fought for their independence. Please try to see now that the world is not all big ages old nations.--Alexia Death 13:05, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

BTW: Your ethnic slurs are noted.--Alexia Death 13:12, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.