Talk:Azerbaijan (Iran): Difference between revisions

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			{{Talk header\|noarchives=yes\|search=no}}
	{{Talkheader}}
	{{WikiProject ~~Iran}}~~		{{WikiProject banner shell\|class=C\|1=
			{{WikiProject Iran\|importance=Top}}
	{{WikiProject_Azerbaijan}}
			{{WikiProject Azerbaijan\|importance=}}
			{{WikiProject Caucasia\|importance=high}}
			{{WikiProject Armenia\|importance=mid}}
			{{WikiProject Geography\|importance=mid}}
			}}
	{{reqmapin\|Iran}}		{{reqmapin\|Iran}}
			{{archives \|age=365 \|bot=lowercase sigmabot III}}
	{\| class="infobox" width="270px"
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			== add Demographic statistics ==

			=== Demographic statistics ===
			{\|class="wikitable sortable"
	\|-		\|-
			! Name !! ]
	!align="center"\|]<br/>]
			! ] (km{{sup\|2}}) !! ] <br> (2011 census)
	----
	\|-		\|-
			\| ] \|\| ]
	\|
			\| 45,650 \|\| 3,724,620
	* ]
			\|-
	* ]
			\| ] \|\| ]
	*
			\| 37,437 \|\| 3,080,576
	*
			\|-
	\|}<!--Template:Archivebox-->
			\| ] \|\| ]
			\| 17,800 \|\| 1,248,488
			\|-
			\| ] \|\| ]
			\| 21,773 \|\| 1,015,734
			\|- style="background:#9acdff;"
			\| Total \|\| ]
			\| 122٬276 \|\| 9٬069٬418
			\|}
			*122٬276 of 1,648,195 = 7.41 percent of ] Area
			*9٬069٬418 of 75,149,669 (2011 census) = 12.06 percent of ] Population <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 15:36, 21 February 2017 (UTC)</small>

			== The name of the province(s) is Azarbaijan, not Azerbaijan. ==

			The correct term as it is used in every official Iranian document is Azarbaijan, NOT Azerbaijan. Hence, I am wondering who changed the spelling and why? The Republic that was founded in 1918 uses the Turkic spelling "Azerbaijan", but Iran uses the correct, etymological spelling with "a". I suggest reverting the name to the officially used name of the province(s). <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 20:54, 3 April 2022 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
	== last edit - POV pushing ==

			:It is Azarbaijan in '''Persian''' language, but this is '''English language''' article. The common way to spell the name is not always the same in multiple languages, like ''Russia'' and ''Russiye''. ] (]) 17:28, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
	Last edit is clearly POV pushing, and at least contradict references which in this sentence. A lot of discussion held here. Any new edit should be discussed thoroughly before edit made.--] 19:30, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
	Now it reflects both points of view, I hope with reference # 1,2 for one sdie and reference # 3,4 for another.--] 19:32, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

	== ~~history~~ ==		== I have a question ==

			Why is it so that here in demographics it writes that "the azerbaijani people are largely iranic and minority caucasian in origin" while in the page about azerbaijanis turkic is also (rightfully) mentioned? ] (]) 20:21, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
	I updated some info on recent history--] 16:56, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
	:it was not updating, it was blatant pushing by a handpicked of obscure sources, I revert until you at least show consensus for it. --] 17:03, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
	::It is reliable sources and well-known facts. what you are doing is blatant vandalism.--] 17:09, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

			:Because Misplaced Pages is dominated by Arianists, iranists and they do all the tricks to undermine Azerbaijan. It’s all politically motivated ] (]) 18:55, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
	:::Dacy, stop spamming articles, this issue has been addressed already in its proper article.] 17:09, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

			== Latinisation of the Azerbaijani name ==
	:There have been three references removed from the article. Can you please, provide:
	::1. detailed reason for reverting
	::2. detailed reason for claiming "obscure sources"
	::3. reference to the "proper article" in Misplaced Pages, where "this issue has been addressed already".
	:Thanks. ] 17:18, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

			The page currently includes the Iranian Azerbaijani name آذربایجان, while also including the transliteration Āzerbāyjān.
	:::* please see the ( ---> POV section) about the cartoon . --] 17:22, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
	:::Claim on that page was that information is irrelevant to foreign relations. here it is about domestic policy. It perfectly suits. That's it. Indeed, sources which I used on this page was used on that page - Iran-Azerbaijan relations and stiill on that page. So, you just in tandem try to remove sourced information. Multiple sources which introduced here will be approved by any third party mediator.--] 19:28, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

			It is difficult to find what standard this transliteration is based on, as the only latin-based form of the Azerbaijani alphabet known to me is the form officially used in the Republic of Azerbaijan, which renders the name as Azərbaycan. <ins>(There is an for Azerbaijani, but it does not differ from the Persian in this case, and is thus unnecessary.)</ins>
	I am adding Amnesty International source - Its reliability is not under question.--] 19:33, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

			If one is using the same scheme as used for the Persian transliteration, there is no reason to write it Āzerbāyjān rather than Āzarbāyjān, as that is neither consistent with writing nor pronunciation.
	Pejman, you are blindly reverting wothout any reasonable discussion--] 20:07, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
	:you said you are going to only insert the amnesty international sources and mentioned it in your edit summery, but then you just reinserted your obscure sources. I ask you to think about your edits. --] 20:18, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
	:you said that it is obscure sources. I added Amnesty International to support it. You blindly deleted it. Now I am opening request for comments case. Next - I will have to draw attention of admins to your actions if you were persistent in deleleting multiple sourced information.--] 20:27, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

			Āzerbāyjān's equivalent in the Arabic script Azerbaijani, in terms of pronunciation, would be آذئربایجان.
	==Request for Comments==

			<del>Unless there is a latinisation scheme for Azerbaijani in the Arabic script that I am unaware of,</del> it would make most sense to simply use Azərbaycan or none at all. ] (]) 03:48, 11 April 2023 (UTC)<ins>; edited 05:04, 23 July 2023 (UTC)</ins>
	The dispute regarding update on the recent history of ] - events of May 2006 and others involving riots supressed by police caused by cartoons published in an Iranian newspaper insulting Azerbaijani identity. Edit was supported by multiple and reputable sources, including Amnesty International. Editors ] and --] without reasanoble arguments blindly delete edits.--] 20:22, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
	:With regard to comments below ''"A - The first two sources and Cristian Science Monitor are not international sources"'' (???) What it means? Pls. see Misplaced Pages guidance on sources. We need NPOV sources and non-obscure one which is the case with CSM and other references. As far Amnesty International - I introduced it because Pejman47 questioned sources on its notability. Amnesty International confirms which other sources reports.--] 02:09, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

			:{{ping\|Samiollah1357}} Thank you for your response. Please read ]. Just because we don't have a proper Iranian Latinization of the name, doesn't mean we should resort to adding things that are not officially recognized. Adding the Latin transliteration of the Republic of Azerbaijan would tantamount to irredentist POV pushing, no different than adding the Perso-Arabic transliteration for articles related to the Republic of Azerbaijan, or Arabic script transliterations for articles related to Kurdish in Turkey. In the absence of a proper Latinization that is recognized for Iranian use, said transliterations should be removed. - ] (]) 11:21, 11 April 2023 (UTC)
	===Comments of Editors Involved===
			::@], I agree that the transliteration is unnecessary and should be removed, especially as it is written identical to the Persian name in Arabic script Azerbaijani. I only added it back in reversion of a that (without any basis) originally changed it to Āzerbāyjān. I already explained earlier how Āzerbāyjān is a not a proper latinisation<del>, as there exist no transliteration schemes for Arabic script Azerbaijan, asides from the official alphabet of the Republic of Azerbaijan.</del> The only difference between the name in Azerbaijani and Persian is in pronunciation. Considering this, it may be possible to write the name in the same way ] does for Pashto and Persian.
	: A - The first two source of information , and ] are not international sources.
			::I propose merging the Azerbaijani and Persian name sections (as they are identical in Arabic script) and only using the Persian transliteration (as there exists no transliteration scheme for Iranian-Azerbaijani), while maintaining separate pronunciation guides (due to slightly differing pronunciation). ] (]) 17:40, 11 April 2023 (UTC)<ins>; edited 05:05, 23 July 2023 (UTC)</ins>
	: B- The ] 's Annual Report , is not related to "History" section of Iranian Azerbaijan as we don't see such a report on history section of ] or any other country in Misplaced Pages: , and etc--] 22:20, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
			::{{tq\|Adding the Latin transliteration of the Republic of Azerbaijan would tantamount to irredentist POV pushing}} who says so? I disagree. Does Tabriz become Azerbaijan by adding a latinization? I am sure that 99% of readers of this page can not read Arabic, so what's the purpose of adding it without a proper transliteration? ] (]) 18:21, 11 April 2023 (UTC)
			:::The latin script is not used in Iran thus we don't use it when it comes to Iranian cities/territories.<b><span style="color:orange">---Wikaviani </span></b><sup><small><b>] ]</b></small></sup> 03:14, 23 July 2023 (UTC)
			::::You sure about that? Maybe look at various Kurdish populated areas, most of them have a latin transliteration. Like ] and ], etc. This is hypocrisy. You don't create a false transliteration. Also comparing this to placing Perso-Arabic for Republic of Azerbaijan related articles isn't valid since this is English wikipedia, a latin alphabet based wikipedia. That's why we need a latin transliteration for every non-latin text. How are reader supposed to read them? Not everyone knows IPA either. ] (]) 06:40, 23 July 2023 (UTC)
			:::::Hello @],
			:::::Unlike Kurdish, which is a fully phonetic alphabet, loanwords in Arabic-script Azerbaijani are usually written in their original form. This includes Azerbaijan, a word that originated from Persian. Thus, the transliterations are also the same for both languages.
			:::::Additionally, Kurdish transliteration schemes differ from the Kurmanji Kurdish Latin alphabet. For example, the BGN/PCGN transliteration of {{langx\|ckb\|سپای ڕزگاری\|label=none}} is Sipa-î Ṟizgarî. The letter R̄ is used for the ڕ letter, which does not have an equivalent in the Latin alphabets used for Kurdish, and a hyphen is added for the -î ], which is not separated in Latin Kurdish writing.
			:::::In the same manner, transliterations of Arabic-script Azerbaijani differ from the Latin alphabet used for Caucasian Azerbaijani writing. This is because the Latin alphabet used for it was not based on what was written, but how it was pronounced. For example, as per the ALA-LC scheme, {{langx\|az\|اعلامیّه\|script=Arab\|label=none\|italic=no}} is transliterated E‘lāmiyya, while in the Latin alphabet of Azerbaijani it is written Elamiyyə. The ] is completely ignored, and it is thus not a proper transliteration of the Arabic script.
			:::::In the case of the word {{langx\|az\|آذربایجان\|script=Arab\|label=none\|italic=no}}, Azerbaijan, the main topic of discussion here, it is transliterated identically in every transliteration scheme that exists for both Persian and Azerbaijani. There is thus no reason to separate the transliterations. As their pronunciations slightly differ, the IPA pronunciation guide is included to help with that. ] (]) 19:48, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

			== Semi-protected edit request on 27 September 2023 ==
	===Comments of Third Party===
	Dacy69 is trying to spam several articles with the same information. This information is already mentioned in the proper articles. It has nothing to do with the Iranian region of Azerbaijan or its history. This isnt the proper place for the information Dacy69 wants to insert. Again, this information has already been inserted in the proper articles already and has absolutely nothing to do with Iranian Azerbaijan or the history of Iranian Azerbaijan.] 22:23, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
	:You should have some decency. You are involved in many dispute on similar topic and still commenting as third party. You are making comments on editor rather than on subject matter. I'll take note. Ok. Now about the subject. Then you have not explained where this information is covered and why the description of important recent historical event should not be in the article.--] 01:29, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

			{{edit semi-protected\|Azerbaijan (Iran)\|answered=yes}}
	:: I don't understand why Amnesty International info was removed. Please provide a good reason for deletion of sourced info. ] 06:55, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
			Change the description of the map from "Three provinces of Iranian Azerbaijan region" to "Three or four provinces of Iranian Azerbaijan region, depending on the political acceptation of Zanjan province as part of Azerbaijan" ] (]) 09:31, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

			:{{Not done}} You need to provide cites for such a change.<b><span style="color:orange">---Wikaviani </span></b><sup><small><b>] ]</b></small></sup> 10:24, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
	: I agree with Alborz, this is an article about a geographical region, don't insert irrelevant and poorly sourced "Human Rights reports" into the article. Otherwise, there would be no end to it, and next we would have a section with "Human Rights reports" about the conditions of Talysh, Tatars and Kurds on ] article. Misplaced Pages is not a forum or a soapbox. ] 08:38, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
	:: And the same information on human rights of Azeris in Iran is already available on ], ] and ]. Misplaced Pages is not a soapbox, you can not spam Misplaced Pages articles with the same information on four different articles. The article ] is a geographical article, not an ethnic one. ] 11:02, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
	:::Text inserted is not about human rights per se. It is about recent historical events. Secondly, it is based on multiple sources, Amnesty Inetrnational is one of them. But editors, like pejman and Alborz, remove all of them.--] 13:28, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

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add Demographic statistics

Demographic statistics

Name	Capital	Area (km)	Population (2011 census)
East Azerbaijan Province	Tabriz	45,650	3,724,620
West Azerbaijan Province	Urmia	37,437	3,080,576
Ardabil Province	Ardabil	17,800	1,248,488
Zanjan Province	Zanjan	21,773	1,015,734
Total	Azerbaijan (Iran)	122٬276	9٬069٬418

122٬276 of 1,648,195 = 7.41 percent of Iran Area
9٬069٬418 of 75,149,669 (2011 census) = 12.06 percent of Iran Population — Preceding unsigned comment added by Callofworld (talk • contribs) 15:36, 21 February 2017 (UTC)

The name of the province(s) is Azarbaijan, not Azerbaijan.

The correct term as it is used in every official Iranian document is Azarbaijan, NOT Azerbaijan. Hence, I am wondering who changed the spelling and why? The Republic that was founded in 1918 uses the Turkic spelling "Azerbaijan", but Iran uses the correct, etymological spelling with "a". I suggest reverting the name to the officially used name of the province(s). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:1715:4E33:4130:3093:F0A:859E:188A (talk) 20:54, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

It is Azarbaijan in Persian language, but this is English language article. The common way to spell the name is not always the same in multiple languages, like Russia and Russiye. PAper GOL (talk) 17:28, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

I have a question

Why is it so that here in demographics it writes that "the azerbaijani people are largely iranic and minority caucasian in origin" while in the page about azerbaijanis turkic is also (rightfully) mentioned? SeljukK2 (talk) 20:21, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

Because Misplaced Pages is dominated by Arianists, iranists and they do all the tricks to undermine Azerbaijan. It’s all politically motivated 62.65.194.67 (talk) 18:55, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

Latinisation of the Azerbaijani name

The page currently includes the Iranian Azerbaijani name آذربایجان, while also including the transliteration Āzerbāyjān.

It is difficult to find what standard this transliteration is based on, as the only latin-based form of the Azerbaijani alphabet known to me is the form officially used in the Republic of Azerbaijan, which renders the name as Azərbaycan. (There is an ALA-LC transliteration table for Azerbaijani, but it does not differ from the Persian in this case, and is thus unnecessary.)

If one is using the same scheme as used for the Persian transliteration, there is no reason to write it Āzerbāyjān rather than Āzarbāyjān, as that is neither consistent with writing nor pronunciation.

Āzerbāyjān's equivalent in the Arabic script Azerbaijani, in terms of pronunciation, would be آذئربایجان.

~~Unless there is a latinisation scheme for Azerbaijani in the Arabic script that I am unaware of,~~ it would make most sense to simply use Azərbaycan or none at all. Samiollah1357 (talk) 03:48, 11 April 2023 (UTC); edited 05:04, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

@Samiollah1357: Thank you for your response. Please read WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. Just because we don't have a proper Iranian Latinization of the name, doesn't mean we should resort to adding things that are not officially recognized. Adding the Latin transliteration of the Republic of Azerbaijan would tantamount to irredentist POV pushing, no different than adding the Perso-Arabic transliteration for articles related to the Republic of Azerbaijan, or Arabic script transliterations for articles related to Kurdish in Turkey. In the absence of a proper Latinization that is recognized for Iranian use, said transliterations should be removed. - LouisAragon (talk) 11:21, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

@LouisAragon, I agree that the transliteration is unnecessary and should be removed, especially as it is written identical to the Persian name in Arabic script Azerbaijani. I only added it back in reversion of a 28 August 2019 edit that (without any basis) originally changed it to Āzerbāyjān. I already explained earlier how Āzerbāyjān is a not a proper latinisation~~, as there exist no transliteration schemes for Arabic script Azerbaijan, asides from the official alphabet of the Republic of Azerbaijan.~~ The only difference between the name in Azerbaijani and Persian is in pronunciation. Considering this, it may be possible to write the name in the same way Zabul Province's page does for Pashto and Persian.

I propose merging the Azerbaijani and Persian name sections (as they are identical in Arabic script) and only using the Persian transliteration (as there exists no transliteration scheme for Iranian-Azerbaijani), while maintaining separate pronunciation guides (due to slightly differing pronunciation). Samiollah1357 (talk) 17:40, 11 April 2023 (UTC); edited 05:05, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Adding the Latin transliteration of the Republic of Azerbaijan would tantamount to irredentist POV pushing who says so? I disagree. Does Tabriz become Azerbaijan by adding a latinization? I am sure that 99% of readers of this page can not read Arabic, so what's the purpose of adding it without a proper transliteration? Beshogur (talk) 18:21, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

The latin script is not used in Iran thus we don't use it when it comes to Iranian cities/territories.---Wikaviani 03:14, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

You sure about that? Maybe look at various Kurdish populated areas, most of them have a latin transliteration. Like West Azerbaijan province and Mahabad, etc. This is hypocrisy. You don't create a false transliteration. Also comparing this to placing Perso-Arabic for Republic of Azerbaijan related articles isn't valid since this is English wikipedia, a latin alphabet based wikipedia. That's why we need a latin transliteration for every non-latin text. How are reader supposed to read them? Not everyone knows IPA either. Beshogur (talk) 06:40, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Hello @Beshogur,

Unlike Kurdish, which is a fully phonetic alphabet, loanwords in Arabic-script Azerbaijani are usually written in their original form. This includes Azerbaijan, a word that originated from Persian. Thus, the transliterations are also the same for both languages.

Additionally, Kurdish transliteration schemes differ from the Kurmanji Kurdish Latin alphabet. For example, the BGN/PCGN transliteration of سپای ڕزگاری is Sipa-î Ṟizgarî. The letter R̄ is used for the ڕ letter, which does not have an equivalent in the Latin alphabets used for Kurdish, and a hyphen is added for the -î Ezāfe, which is not separated in Latin Kurdish writing.

In the same manner, transliterations of Arabic-script Azerbaijani differ from the Latin alphabet used for Caucasian Azerbaijani writing. This is because the Latin alphabet used for it was not based on what was written, but how it was pronounced. For example, as per the ALA-LC scheme, Error: {{Langx}}: invalid parameter: |script= (help) is transliterated E‘lāmiyya, while in the Latin alphabet of Azerbaijani it is written Elamiyyə. The ʿayn is completely ignored, and it is thus not a proper transliteration of the Arabic script.

In the case of the word Error: {{Langx}}: invalid parameter: |script= (help), Azerbaijan, the main topic of discussion here, it is transliterated identically in every transliteration scheme that exists for both Persian and Azerbaijani. There is thus no reason to separate the transliterations. As their pronunciations slightly differ, the IPA pronunciation guide is included to help with that. Samiollah1357 (talk) 19:48, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 27 September 2023

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Change the description of the map from "Three provinces of Iranian Azerbaijan region" to "Three or four provinces of Iranian Azerbaijan region, depending on the political acceptation of Zanjan province as part of Azerbaijan" AkaneoMT (talk) 09:31, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

Not done You need to provide cites for such a change.---Wikaviani 10:24, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

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