| Revision as of 18:15, 23 June 2007 editElonka (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Administrators70,958 edits →Proposing Merge: - recommending followup merge← Previous edit |
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==Archives== |
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== Christopher Vogler? == |
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*] |
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*] - undated comments, and comments through Mar. 2006 |
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Why is Christopher Vogler featured so prominently? It seems like a weird choice. |
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== Merge == |
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Its pretty easy to see why the two pages should be merged; I just don't know how to, so I wanted to draw attention to it.--] 06:36, 18 April 2006 (UTC) |
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] (]) 21:51, 19 November 2023 (UTC) |
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* I also support the merge and I also don't know how to do it. But it's gotta be done. ] 00:24, 21 May 2006 (UTC) |
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:Why on earth was this archived a month or so after I wrote it? ] (]) 16:09, 23 December 2023 (UTC) |
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*This should DEFINATELY be merged, for starters the grammar on the Heroes journey article title is atrocious. Plus they're both exactly the same thing. ] 16:35, 22 May 2006 (UTC) |
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''' |
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*!!!!!The reason we always learn about them together is because they both help us to understand the same thing, please merge them!!! {{unsigned|61.68.102.105}} |
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== Still no explanation for what a "gift of the godess" is == |
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*No, I disagree. The monomyth is based closely on Campbell's work studying existing mythologys. However, the heroe's journey has taken on a life somewhat of its own through books such as "The Writer's Journey" by Christopher Vogler. The monomyth centres on classic mythology whilst the heroe's journey, although clearly based on Campbell's monomyth, centres equally around how these conventions have been adopted in screenplay. Fundamentally, the monomyth has more '''steps''' than the heroe's journey. Evidently the articles are intereferential, but they should exist seperately. |
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Nowhere online. ] (]) 19:20, 9 November 2024 (UTC) |
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* They have more steps so they SHOULD BE MERGED.. daaa! {{unsigned|61.68.102.105}} |
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* While The Lord of the Rings and The Never Ending Story are not influenced by Campbell's works, The Matrix, and many of the other refrences are either influenced by his works or by other works based on Campbell's works. I think that monomyth, The Hero with a Thousand Faces, and The Hero's Journey are all elucidations on a central theme and therefore can and should be combined. I do thin, however, that there should be a distinction between the works wich Campbell based his works on, works based on Campbell's works, and the works that can be classified as a monomyth that were never mentioned by campbell or that were known to be based on his work. I think I can combine these articles well by using only references that Campbell himself used to describe the monomyth, and then adding another section for works which are attributed to Campbell's. ] 9-16-2006''' |
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*Strongly support a merge. The two concepts of "monomyth" and "hero's journey" appear to be identical, and they're both obviously referring to Campbell's work, which is another link. --]]] 17:31, 7 June 2007 (UTC) |
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== Manganiello == |
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Err,... who is Manganiello? The only references that I can find to the "Manganiello Monomyth" are all to mirrors of this article, which is ''never'' a good sign. --] 01:30, 11 September 2006 (UTC) |
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Thes topics cover so many of the same concepts that they should be one article. |
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== Mythological, religious and classic examples == |
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I'm reading both Campbell's ''Hero'' and Vogler's ''Writer's Journey'' presently, and am attempting to add relevant myth-based, religious or classic examples to this page. Hopefully this will return some of its credibility, and dismiss the poorly-thought argument that the idea of the monomyth is simply a Hollywood fabrication designed to churn out cookie-cutter plots; indeed, what both of these authors are intending is quite the opposite... allowing artists to be creative in a "psychologically true" structure based on the workings of Jung's supposed collective unconscious. |
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Just visiting the page (and very new to commenting, etc) and I have a small question regarding mythological references (not related to the above comment): What is the connection between Daphne and the hero's refusal of the call to adventure? Why would submitting to a man (or god) who is basically trying to rape you be equivalent to embarking on an adventure? I think it is in there by mistake and perhaps should be removed; in fact, it's kinda offensive to equate answering a call to adventure, and allowing yourself to be raped. I'm basing my understanding of Daphne's story on mythology I've read; I've certainly always cheered for Daphne to escape when I've read that story. I haven't read the original work by Campbell - I hope it's not in there? Thnx. ] 04:07, 15 March 2007 (UTC) |
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== Removing Original Research and unreferenced material == |
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Reading through much of the text of the modern applications of the monomyths leaves me with the impression that much of that text is ] and/or unreferenced material. While obviously added in good faith by earnest posters, much of the text does not meet Misplaced Pages standards for inclusion. Would anyone else like to take a hand at removal of OR and unreferenced material? I will add information within the text to discourage further OR and unreferenced material.] 17:36, 28 November 2006 (UTC) |
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:I think you need only one reminder at the top, not one for every section. If I think I have a source for something you take out I'll put it back in sourced, so don't be afraid to remove original research. ] <span title="Pronunciation in IPA" class="IPA"></sub>]]</span> 20:14, 28 November 2006 (UTC) |
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Well, I agree that putting it in at the beginning of each section is probably a bit of overkill, but people do click on the <nowiki></nowiki> option at the beginning of sections, so I felt it was safest to put it in each section as well. Also, this article has so much OR that a little overkill couldn't hurt. After the article is under control, we can probably dial the reminder down to once at the top. |
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Also, thanks for the OK on removing material. I hope that other people who do have sourced text will feel the same way!] 20:23, 28 November 2006 (UTC) |
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== Moving material between ''Monomyth'' and ''Hero'' articles == |
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If the purpose of maintaining two separate, but very similar articles is (1) The ''Hero'' article is supposed to focus more on Campbell's ideas, and (2) the ''Monomyth'' article is supposed to focus more on the application of the monomyth concept, especially in modern story-creation, then a substantial amount of material has to be re-organized between the two articles. I have started that process by duplicating material in the two articles. The next step will be to eliminate much of the duplicative material in one of the articles. |
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Of course, all this can be solved by merging the two articles - since the distinction listed above is pretty subtle, and is not likely to be understood by most readers (or for that matter, editors!).] 02:45, 29 November 2006 (UTC) |
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:Excuse me? What are you talking about? |
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:The ] article deals the topic and concept of Hero. It is certainly not limited to the "monomyth" analysis, let alone Campbell's treatment of it. ] 02:55, 29 November 2006 (UTC) |
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::I believe ''monomyth'' was not Campbell's term (originally anyway) which would make one justification for having separate articles. ] <span title="Pronunciation in IPA" class="IPA"></sub>]]</span> 07:02, 29 November 2006 (UTC) |
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First, I see my use of a shorthand title caused unintended confusion. When I wrote ''Hero'' (above), I was referring to the ] article, not the separate ] article. My apologies for the unintended confusion. |
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My intent is to begin clean-up of the following four over-lapping ]-related articles: |
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* ]: An article which I understand to be a discussion of Campbell's seminal 1949 book, which applied the term ''monomyth'' to the underlying structure of the ''Hero's journey''. |
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* ]: An article which appears to be focused on the application of the ''monomyth'' structure in modern movies and other writing. |
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* ]: An article which is very similar to the ] article - that is, a discussion of the ''Hero's journey'' concept outlined by Campbell. |
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* ] (note different capitalization and spacing): An article limited to a discussion of a separate book and documentary with that title about the life of Joseph Campbell. |
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The first step was to try to clean-up and re-focus the ] article and the ] article (only). There was ''modern application'' material in the ] article that looked like it belonged in the ] article, and explanatory material in the ] article that looked like it belonged in the ] article. Hence, the first step was to duplicate the material into what looked like the "proper" article. |
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The intended next step will be to then clean-up both articles - by deleting and summarizing material to better focus those two articles on their two subjects (book vs. modern application). |
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The following step after that will be to start a discussion about merging the ] article and the ] articles. Those two terms are usually used synonymously; I'm not sure that the confusion caused by two articles with almost identical topics is worth whatever benefit might be derived (but that's two steps down the road here). |
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So, to summarize - this has nothing to do with the separate ] article - my apologies for the unintended confusion. This is only about cleaning-up the four Campbell-related articles, with the first step being cleaning up ] article and the ] article. (I'm going to post parts of this in all four articles). ] 13:40, 29 November 2006 (UTC) |
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:I'm not sure I agree with the premise here. The title of this article isn't "Applications of the Monomyth." The HWaTF article should summmarize the book, the Monomyth article should discuss the topic of monomyth as a standable concept (assuming ''anyone'' else has dealt with the topic besides Campbell). If HWaTF is the only place the monomyth concept is talked about and the article on HWaTF talks about the book's ideas rather than the book itself, than I'd say the idea of having the two articles exist seperately is redundant. IMO, anyway. ] 03:04, 10 December 2006 (UTC) |
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:Actually this is between ] and ]. Not with the article on the book. ] <span title="Pronunciation in IPA" class="IPA"></sub>]]</span> 03:17, 10 December 2006 (UTC) |
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The thought that I was working with as a structure was the following: |
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*The ''HWaTF'' article would focus on the discussion of that book, and on Campbell's seminal description of the monomyth. |
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*The ''Monomyth'' article would start with Campbell's conception, but then discuss other people's use of the monomyth concept; for example, Chris Vogler, George Lucas, Robert Bly, etc. |
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So the ''HWaTF'' article would focus on Campbell's original description, and the ''Monomyth'' article would then follow the expansion and further discussion of the monomyth concept by other writers and scholars. An important part of the continuing life of the monomyth is its use by screenwriters. ] 06:37, 10 December 2006 (UTC) |
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:As distracting as the "use in modern movies/books" examples are, I'm wondering if they need their own section/article. They don't seem to fit well into this article—they seem like they're being cited as evidence when clearly they aren't, given when they were written. It doesn't seem very encyclopediac, in any case. ] 07:22, 10 December 2006 (UTC) |
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It sounds like it was as surprising to you as it was to me, but the single most frequent use of Campbell's idea today seems to be as a guide for movie screenwriters. There's a body of (quasi-)scholarly work on (a) how to use Campbell's ideas in telling stories, and (b) examining use of Campbell's ideas in telling stories. See, e.g., |
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* MacKey-Kallis, Susan. The hero and the perennial journey home in American film. University of Pennsylvania Press (2001). ISBN 0812217683 |
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*]. ]. Studio City, CA: Michael Wiese Productions, 1998. |
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* Voytilla, Stuart and Vogler, Christopher. Myth & the Movies: Discovering the myth structure of 50 unforgettable films. Studio City, CA: Michael Wiese Productions, 1999. ISBN 0941188663 |
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There are two modern examples listed here: the ''Stars Wars'' movies, and the ''Matrix''. Lucas has explicitly stated that his movies are based on Campbell's structure, and the Matrix writer(s) were heavily influenced by Vogler's work about Campbell's structure. |
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Also, you should have seen this page a couple of weeks ago, it was filled with people's analyses of many modern movies' use of the monomyth structure (see, e.g., ). My view is that it is a legitimate encyclopedic exercise to see how a thinker's ideas grow (and apparently thrive). WPedia doesn't shrink from covering quite ephemeral pop culture, and here, timeless ideas receiving their latest incarnation on the silver screen seems to be to be an OK topic. ] 13:55, 10 December 2006 (UTC) |
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== removing tags == |
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Because this article has now been substantially re-written and re-organized, I am removing the ''disputed'' and ''OR'' tags. If anyone wishes to replace those tags, please place an explanation on this Discussion page. ] 16:43, 30 November 2006 (UTC) |
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==Horribly incorrect summaries== |
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Some of these italicized summaries are pretty off and seem to have been written by someone who didn't bother to read ''Hero...'' or even reference it: The Woman as Temptress stage clearly states that woman represents life and that the stage is not a trial in itself but a realization that mortal life is a deviation from the path/truth/whatever you wanna call it. The chapter on the return threshold says ''nothing'' about a return threshold guardian. The rebirth happens way back in the belly of the whale stage and... anyway, you get the point. I'm putting citecheck on this mother until someone (possibly me but don't let that stop you) fixes it. ] <span title="Pronunciation in IPA" class="IPA"></sub>]]</span> 06:04, 9 December 2006 (UTC) |
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:I've made an edit to an identical set of the summaries ]. I'll give a day or so for people to ruminate and tweak it before I adjust this page. ] <span title="Pronunciation in IPA" class="IPA"></sub>]]</span> 10:19, 9 December 2006 (UTC) |
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::Excellent work, Ƶ§œš¹ - much appreciated. You are a step ahead of what I'd planned, but I've gotten tied up elsewhere for a few weeks. Thank you! ] 15:50, 9 December 2006 (UTC) |
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== Variety == |
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All of the "modern applications" of the monomyth reference either ''Star Wars'' or ''The Matrix''. Surely we can come up with some more varied examples? (''Harry Potter'' for one follows many parts of the monomyth thus far)--] 02:39, 29 December 2006 (UTC) |
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:If I recall correctly, the article had a number of examples like the Lion King and Silence of the Lambs. The problem, though, is that they were unsourced/original research. ] <span title="Pronunciation in IPA" class="IPA"></sub>]]</span> 03:54, 29 December 2006 (UTC) |
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::Is the idea only to reference examples that are acknowledged by their authors as having been influenced by Joseph Campbell, or is the idea to give examples of how both classical and contemporary works reflect the structure Campbell described? The Lord of the Rings books provide excellent examples of the stages described here, better than some of the examples given (particularly the classical examples). (Edit: after checking the previous version cited above, I see that there used to be LotR examples in this article.) ] 00:59, 1 March 2007 (UTC) |
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After reviewing the Misplaced Pages guidelines around "original research" and "attribution," I did a little bit of digging around to see what's out there for possible references to the works of Tolkien as monomyth. Here are some examples: |
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http://paws.wcu.edu/bgastle/SYLLABI/PEN_SWORD.HTML |
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Syllabus analyzing heroic in Tolkien, using Campbell |
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http://www.mythicjourneys.org/guests_ringel.php |
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Faye Ringel, Ph.D. is Professor of Humanities at the United States Coast Guard Academy, New London, CT. Her dissertation in Comparative Literature, Patterns of the Hero and the Quest (Brown University, 1979), was one of the first to analyze Tolkien in the light of Campbell's monomyth, placing Tolkien in the context of Medieval epic and romance. |
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http://www.angelfire.com/wizard/swpotts/ucsd122pa.html |
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Another example of a college syllabus with a sample assignment topic "Bilbo Baggins and Campbell's Monomyth" |
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http://greenbooks.theonering.net/guest/files/120101_02.html |
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"The Lord of the Rings" — An Archetypal Hero’s Journey - Jody G. Bower |
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Article in referenced form |
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http://faculty-staff.ou.edu/C/Janet.B.Croft-1/curriculumvita.html |
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"Jackson's Aragorn and the American Superhero Monomyth." Popular Culture Association annual conference, San Diego, March 2005. |
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Assistant professor/librarian, MLS |
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I think there's plenty of evidence that Tolkien's works are commonly analyzed within the monomyth framework. I don't have time at the moment to rewrite the Tolkien examples with proper references, but maybe this will serve as a starting point for someone else. ] 02:55, 1 March 2007 (UTC) |
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== Criticism & Star Wars Prequels == |
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Is it right to use the Star Wars prequels as an example of disappointing box office and critical indifference? They were hugely successful financially and all score "Fresh" on Rotten Tomatoes. Wouldn't a better example be the Matrix trilogy, where the original, action-oriented movie gets 88% on RT, but more myth-like sequels are rated a slightly lower 75% and a disastrous 37%? ] 02:11, 27 February 2007 (UTC) |
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Dont forget ], which rather clumsily follows the monomyth template in the same way that a paint-by-numbers kit tries to ape Rembrandt. ] 19:43, 28 March 2007 (UTC) |
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== Proposing Merge == |
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I'm proposing to merge ] into this article. As it stands now, there's a huge amount of overlap between the two articles. While there are a few differences between the concepts, this could easily be clarified in a single article.] 13:40, 17 May 2007 (UTC) |
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* Completely agree, please proceed. --]]] 17:32, 7 June 2007 (UTC) |
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(followup merge} I also recommend merging ] into ]. Currently the article is about a book and film on the subject, but has no references proving that they are independently notable. Unless such sources can be provided, the information should probably be merged here and the name set up as a redirect. Disclaimer: I work for the company that produces ''another'' Hero's Journey title, ]. I do think the merge of ] is a good idea, but I'll freely admit that my opinion should not be given as much weight, since I have a potential ]. --]]] 18:15, 23 June 2007 (UTC) |
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== Criticism == |
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Someone actually thinks "Cinderella Man"'s problem was the structure more than the title? Anyway, Star Wars Sequels used the same idea of the hreos journey as the prequels, there might be another reason?? ] 13:53, 24 May 2007 (UTC) |
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Why is Christopher Vogler featured so prominently? It seems like a weird choice.
level-5 vital article is rated B-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
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