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This talk page is to discuss the text, photographs, format, grammar, etc of the ''article itself'' and '''not''' the inherent worth of Intelligent Design. See ]. If you wish to discuss or debate the ''validity'' of intelligent design or promote intelligent design please do so at or other fora. This "Discussion" page is only for discussion on how to improve the Misplaced Pages article. Any attempts at trolling, using this page as a soapbox, or making personal attacks may be deleted at any time.
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== Ref for first sentence ==

I spotted this while getting the above Behe quote:

"Its principal argument is that certain features of the universe are best explained by an intelligent cause rather than undirected causes such as Darwin's theory of natural selection." - Pamphlet used by the Dover Area School District, .

This might be worth adding, but it's a bit of an odd source, so I didn't want to just go ahead and do so. As an aside, I like "undirected causes" better than "undirected processes", but assembling our favourite parts of all the variants would become more awkward than just paraphrasing in the end, and "Darwin's theory of" is just awful. ] <sup>]</sup> 18:46, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

:Since it's completely consistent with the existing def as used by the 3 leading organizations, of which Behe is a Fellow of 2, I don't see to need to add it as a source or alter the def. ] 03:38, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
::Eh, evrything seems to need over-referenced of late. ] <sup>]</sup> 07:48, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
::<p>] does not require, and never required, a direct citation for every statement in an article. Summaries and other descriptions of one or more aspects of a topic quite frequently involve a consensus process about how something will be expressed in "original language", which is quite different from "original research". The additional footnotes, as FeloniousMonk has previously observed and with which I agree at this stage of discussion, help to make clear, to persons whose wont is to make hasty conclusions or assert pre-conceived conclusions about some aspect of the content, that the article reflects a great deal of attention to sourcing. Occasionally, there is legiimate question about whether a particular footnote properly reflects the article-statement(s) to which it is appended, or vice-versa. In my personal opinion that's more than fair enough (assuming it's a ''rational'' question), and I believe there may still be some more work to be done on those 170-or-so footnotes. ... ] 13:01, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
::::Ayemm true, but so many of the questions of late are completely irrational. ] <sup>]</sup> 13:43, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

:::::But as you saw in the trolling questions in the recently archived discussion, no one reads the references. Well, we do. Speaking of references, is this article stable enough to begin cleaning up and formatting the inline cites?] 14:20, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
::::::As far as I can tell, yes. It's not really undergoing major changes - the dispute I was part of blew over in the end, hopefully to everyone's reasonable satisfaction, and wthere's only stamndard editing of late. ] <sup>]</sup> 14:25, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
::::::<p>I was referring above to the specific content of citations, for instance several of the footnotes in the "Defining intelligent design as science" section and perhaps a few others too. Please do not combine citations. Not only is it important to make clear that there are separate sources involved in supporting many of the statements in the article, a fair number of the citations in this article are derived from the same sources (especially but not limited to the Kitzmiller v. Dover decision), but they actually refer specifically to different places in those sources. Please keep'm separate. If one or more turns out to be erroneous or misplaced, it should be able to be dealt with by referring to a specific number (e.g. "currently footnote x" or "presently footnote y"). No objection to standardizing the format (though I personally dislike those forms that've been used by many on WP of late). The present method of presentation appears to be that quotations are put first in the footnote with the source placed after the quote, a method I'm willing to support-- any thoughts about this? ... ] 21:24, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
:::::::I like the "quotations-first" approach, particularly in cases where multiple parts of the same document may be referred to. It makes it much easier to see which part of the cited work is being used to justify the statement being made. ] 21:39, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
::::::::Ditto. I like when the cite says "blah blah blah blah blah" in: Smith, M (2006), ''Intelligent design is controlled by Mickey Mouse.'' Journal of Uncovering BS 22 (1):100-105. And combining references suck. ] 06:45, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
:(ri). I agree with all three of Kenosis' points: combining footnotes creates problems in verification and tends to obscure the actual facts; the form used in many WP articles is abominable; and quoting first and adding a link to the source is fine. Above all, though, ''is'' your first point: do not combine. ] 21:41, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
::I think combining is a good idea in non-cotroversial articles, but accept there's enough idiots tha t we can't do it for ID. ] <sup>]</sup> 09:10, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

:::Oh my Adam. Are you implying there are idiots out and about? ] 01:43, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
::::Now, do you mean IDiots? ]&nbsp;(]&nbsp;<small>•</small>&nbsp;]) 01:45, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
:::::As opposed to ev'''i'''lutionists. -] 13:53, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
::::::Yeah, who made those up, anyway? ]&nbsp;(]&nbsp;<small>•</small>&nbsp;]) 13:56, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
:::::::I saw once
::::::::OMG, that is almost as good as ]&nbsp;(]&nbsp;<small>•</small>&nbsp;]) 18:37, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

== Recent vs Modern ==

In the first paragraph the adjective "modern" implies some positive judgment on this form of the argument, while "recent" would be a more neutral one.--] 23:34, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

:I just changed it to recent. Feel free to do it yourself though: ]. Cheers, ] 10:08, 28 May 2007 (UTC).
::I suppose I can imagine how "recent" might be considered more "neutral" than "modern" to persons who regard "modern form" as somehow inherently preferable to "traditional ... argument...", or that "modern" is somehow either inherently preferable or inherently negative. Frankly, I don't see how "recent form of the traditional teleological argument..." is preferable or more neutral than "modern form of the traditional teleological argument...". ("Hey, what have you been doing recently?" "Well, for the past 20 years now I've been substituting the words "intelligent design" for the word "creationism". What have you been up to?") Any thoughts about this issue of "recent" as opposed to "modern" among those who are more familiar with the article? ... ] 14:59, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
:::"Modern" seems more accurate, in my opinion, and, in the context it's being used, seems to be judgement-neutral. "Recent" is a very inexact, questionable substitution. ] <sup>]</sup> 15:42, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

:"Recent" implies that there was no predecessor to ID, and if you bother to read the sources given in the article see that we have sources indicating there was indeed a predecessor: "''ID is not a new scientific argument, but is rather an old religious argument for the existence of God. He traced this argument back to at least Thomas Aquinas in the 13th century.''" Clearly the use of "recent" is inaccurate here, and I have at least half a dozen other notable reliable sources that all support that ID is simply a restatement of a much older teleological argument, meaning "recent" is never going to fly. I will add them to the article if necessary. ] 15:55, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
::The sentence is:

:::''It is a modern form of the traditional teleological argument for the existence of God, modified to avoid specifying the nature or identity of the designer.''

::So straight after modern/recent it goes and explains that it is an old candy bar in a new wrapper. I still think 'modern' is a loaded word and would prefer something more neutral such as recent, or maybe even a year if it doesn't take up too much space. But if you guys think 'modern' will suffice, then it will. Cheers, ] 23:54, 28 May 2007 (UTC).

:::If one reads the article further, it turns out to be a fairly complex mix of ideological socio-political educational advocacy, a form of philosophy/religion/theology cast as science for the purpose of teaching creation-based views in the public school biology classes in the US. Yes, I'm sorry to say it turns out to be an old candy bar, with a modern sugar-coating, in a new wrapper. And yes, a lot of these points are debatable. .... ] 01:11, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

:::Modern and recent are not synonyous, no matter what Mr Roget has to say. ] 18:22, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

== Origins ==
The article currently states that the first written record of the idea of a designer came from Greek philosophers, but nearly every culture in the world has some type of creation story. I really only know about western traditions, but the old testament surely pre-dates the greek. Is it because these creation stories are considered religious writing and the Greeks are considered philosophical writings the reason the Greek are used here?{{unsigned2|20:30, 29 May 2007|64.122.70.121}}

:Hello!

:First, if you "sign" your posts with four tilde symbols (<nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>) it will put your IP address or username after your post, so we know who we're talking to. Secondly, to try to answer your question, I think that there's a distinction to be made - between a creator and a designer - which is important but subtle (and one which many groups fail to make). Perhaps we should emphasise that contrast more in the article? Let's see what other editors have to say. ] 20:46, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

::]. A solitary designer, however, is part-and-parcel to the philosophies of ] which, though not entirely Western, are almost always viewed by scholars as originating with the Greeks and subsequently co-opted by the ] developing in the Roman world. A contrary case may be possible, but it isn't the place for Misplaced Pages to attack the view that individualism/monotheism originated with the West: that would be ]. --] 21:39, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

:::More to the point in this article, the Ancient Greeks were the first to record the ] – ooh, that natural object looks complicated, it must have been designed, there, that proves God exists. See also the ]. That's generally considered to be the concept or argument underlying ID, though perhaps the main concept is "if we call creation science ID, we can sell schoolbooks and get it taught in U.S. public schools". Anyway, if you find an example of the teleological argument in the Old Testament, please cite it chapter and verse....... ], ] 21:49, 29 May 2007 (UTC) correkted 21:59, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
::::Job 38-39, off the top of my head. ] 06:47, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
:::::Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me: where's the teleological argument in that? Lot of boasting from someone claiming to run a flat earth cosmology, complete with corners to the earth and gates to stop water from popping up from underneath. Nowt about design, afaik. Do explain, and for the purposes of this article provide confirmation of the the dating of Job to see if it preceded Plato, as well as a source making this argument in relation to ID so it's not original research. Unless, of course, it's just off topic. ... ], ] 08:51, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
::::::According to ], the book of Job dates from the 4th century BC, and so is more-or-less contemporary with Plato. I doubt if either author was familiar with the other's work, though. :) On the issue in question, I'm not aware of any arguments for the ''existence'' of God to be found in the Bible itself; to answer the original enquiry, there's a difference between ''professing'' a belief in God (or any other controversial subject), and providing an ''argument'' for this belief. The idea of a formal argument does originate with the Greek philosophers, specifically ], and the text reads: "The first recorded ''arguments'' for a designer..." (emphasis added). Hope this clarifies things a little. ] 14:34, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
:::::::IMO, there's no need for the second sentence of that section. ("The first recorded ''arguments'' for a designer come from Greek philosophy.") It could just as easily and accurately read:
:::::::* Philosophers have long debated whether the complexity of nature indicates the existence of a purposeful natural or supernatural designer/creator. In the 4th century BC, ] posited a "]" of supreme wisdom and intelligence as the creator of the cosmos in his '']''. ] also developed the idea of a creator-designer of the cosmos, often called the "]," in his work '']''. In ''De Natura Deorum'', or "''On the Nature of the Gods''" (45 BC), ] stated that "the divine power is to be found in a principle of reason which pervades the whole of nature."
:::::::... ] 15:10, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
:<unindent>I think that would be OK, provided we change the section title to something like "History of the concept" (rather than "Origin"). If we're staying with "Origin", we need to make a definite statement about the ''first'' use of the concept (presumably by Plato). ] 15:59, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
::Ahh, good point Tevildo. I've no objection to the removal of that unnecessary (and somewhat speculative) sentence and the retitling of the section as "History of the concept". I think it's fairly straightforward and ought be uncontroversial, though if I'm wrong about that I'm sure I'll be corrected quickly enough. Any objections? ... ] 16:20, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

== Over all I think the article gives too much credence to : ==

the 'concept' of Intelligent design. The first sentence should state that it is a marketing ploy. ] 17:27, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

:Tried that. Lead balloon :-( ] 17:35, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
::Wouldn't fit ] and is hard to reference. Readers should see for themselves that the evidence overwhelmingly points to the DI's mindset. Besides, I'm pretty sure that a lot of those less influenced by information truly believe that c#*p, so it'd be notable as a concept anyway. ] 19:49, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

==objections==

* 1. spontenious order - see snow flakes
* 2. artificial intelligence - though man made, shows that natural processes can be made to do just about any thing observable in the natural world.
* 3. comprehension seems the only unexplained characteristic of human cognition linked perhaps to sentient awareness, but not linked to actual functioning of the material world and thus not demonstratable as a necessity.
* 4. without specific goals or purpose the natural world cannot be demonstrated to be consciously directed or designed.
* 5. the universe in total seems very barren of life and just what one would expect from random forces and spontenious order rather than intelligent design.
* 6. If Intelligence is seen as a function of evolved systems, then an intelligent designer is no answer just a prior evolved system and only puts the mystery back one step rather than answering any questions.
* 7. the only apparent avoidance of infinite regression is to postulate that elementry particles moving according to their own nature evolving into complex systems can explain anything at all.
] 17:17, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
:: I do not get what you are saying here. ] 19:43, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
:::Such opinions have to be ] to a ] which specifically relates the synthesis of facts to ID so that it doesn't breach ], and have to be dealt with proportionately in what is already a long and complex article, while adhering scrupulously to ] as is set out at the top of this talk page. This page is about suggesting improvements to the article – got any proposals which are fully backed up in accordance with these policies? .. ], ] 19:47, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

ID is not internally consistent. It begins with the assertion that complex things can only exist if designed. So there must be a designer. But the designer was not designed by a designer. So, if the designer exists the original assertion is untrue. This takes us back into babel fish territory. <small>—The preceding ] comment was added by ] (] • ]){{#if:21:26, 14 June 2007 (UTC)|&#32;21:26, 14 June 2007 (UTC)|}}.</small><!-- Template:Unsigned -->

::: You are misunderstanding ID theory. No where does it say that everything that is complex is designed. And now where does it say the designer was designed. It is not that simplistic. ] 16:52, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

::::But if some structures are too complex to emerge without being designed, wouldn't a being, complex enough to create those structures also be too complex to emerge without design? If not why? Is the designer simpler than an eye, and if so how did it design one? ] 01:06, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

== ] AfD ==

Heads up on ] - ] is some sort of comparison of Evolutionary and Creationist views of the Out of Africa theory... ] <sup>]</sup> 08:34, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

:Any descent from ] must be considered highly improbable ;) . . ], ] 10:26, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

== Suggestion That Will Almost Certainly Be Shot Down ==

Hi! I think you guys are doing an excellent job keeping such a high quality on this controversial topic, but about the footnotes... Sadly, on many articles, these footnotes aren't so much helpful to rational readers, but are perhaps used to prove the point to POV-pushers. This is a pity. Here is the suggestion. Why not create a separate evidence page as a sub-page of this talk page, and keep all the refs there, normal readers would need one or two refs for many of these claims. Additionally, I'm sure there is some policy that forbids this, but ] in replacing a bunch of footnotes with a single footnote saying "Evidence for this claim is available ]" or something like that? Many apologies if this has already been discussed, but I really felt like I wanted to say this. I'm not going to push this issue any further so thanks for considering it, ] 12:26, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
: Sorry, there is a technical reason, why this was a bad idea. Misplaced Pages mirrors don't carry talk pages and their sub-pages... I knew there had to be some problems, or something like this would probably already be in use. Ah well... --] 12:36, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
::Also, it's perfectly possible to combine multiple footnotes into one. It's done on ], for instance. But this page, sadly enough, is even more controversial than Evolution (!!), and, frankly, there's a lot of stupidity in the objectors: They kept talking about how only one reference said something, while clearly having never looked down to see that "one reference" was, in fact, 10 different articles.
::Yeah, I know, it's stupid. But what can we do? ] <sup>]</sup> 13:03, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
:::Is there any way to ''differentiate'' (e.g. by bold vs non-bold, colour, whatever) between purely 'defensive' references and references that may provide valuable further reading? This would mean that we could have ''both'', while ensuring that those non-nitpickers only interested in the latter would not have to plough through the former to find them. ] 13:19, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
::::Further reading sections should be handled separately, in fact there is one in this article but it only consists of one book. If you count the external links as further reading (which I would), there already are enough reading suggestions in this article. ] 13:48, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

::: Replying to Adam. I wish there was some neat solution to this though, because grouping refs has problems of its own, especially when one of the group is used elsewhere, and it doesn't really address the main concern, namely that we are catering to POV-pushers at the expense of reasonable readers. I feel it is an insult to my intellect to have about the same claim. The argument for keeping them is that when one of them is removed, then a POV-pusher is going to insist we use prose attribution, such as "According to the court ruling, its primary proponents are ..." Well, it is a sad fact that just because POV-pushers cause more trouble, contributors to these articles care more about their feelings than mine. Note, this melodramatic tone was just to make my point, I'm not actually sad, and fully understand that perhaps we just have to live with this. --] 14:07, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
::::Adam's assessment is correct. Repeatedly there have been objections to facts and issues that are stated in the article based on ]. Virtually every conceivable rational objection and countless irrational objections have been raised, despite clearcut evidence from a wide variety of reliable sources including legal and scientific sources. In numerous instances the person objecting quite plainly has not even looked at the relevant footnotes. Providing separate footnotes makes clear that there are multiple reliable sources for statements in the article which have been objected to in the past. Most of the participants in this process agree that it would be preferable if this were not the case, but given that it is the case, separate footnotes have been agreed to be presented. The only conspicuous exception to this practice is in what is presently footnote 20 in the second lead paragraph, which remains combined as before, but is supported by multiple footnotes later in the paragraph. ... ] 14:27, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

== overview edit ==

I added this to the overview section: "The Harris poll also showed that a majority of U.S. adults (54%) do not think human beings developed from earlier species." I thought to bring up a poll and only show one narrow aspect of it was slightly bias, what does everyone else think? (] 18:28, 5 June 2007 (UTC))

:This is a great argument for getting rid of all those poor quality polls. One problem with the above inclusion is that it shows 54% of US adults not believing in evolution. That's all very well, but this article is all about Intelligent design, so it's not really relevant. Or was your point that we could also quote, say, opinion polls showing how many US adults believe Elvis is alive? I might be down with that. It would certainly put things in context. ] 18:46, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

:That is a good point, I added "64% of respondents in the Harris poll believed human beings were created by God" as part of the Harris poll instead. I believe that is directly relevent to ID. Harris is a more reputable polling company than the one contracted by the Discovery Group, as was stated in the article. I think to show one question of the poll is misleading and bias, my addition will add to the neutrality of the article. (] 18:59, 5 June 2007 (UTC))

::The quality of the polls is already the matter being covered in that section, so the actual numbers are of secondary concern and need not be expanded on. Coverage of the polls is necessary because the DI often touts its Zogby poll results as evidence of support for what it seeks to do. ] 19:11, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

:::Yes the quality of the Zogby polls is being covered in that section but not the Harris poll. Not that I question the quality of the Harris poll, it just seems that one question of the poll was cherry picked, leaving the reader without an overall feel for the poll results. (] 19:34, 5 June 2007 (UTC))

::::It is true that there is a wide difference between popular beliefs and scientific consensus. In the United States, roughly half reject evolution in favor of some form of the statement "created by God" when given the choice, and at least two-thirds believe God was involved in the process in some way. Then there's that roughly 10% who, given a mutually exclusive set of options such as was characteristic of the 2005 Harris Interactive poll, picked the option that humans are so complex that they required an intelligence of some kind to have been created. The scientific community, on the other hand, the particular community that is most involved when the issue is what is taught in science classes, asserts that intelligent design is not science (or worse), and should not be taught as biology. The scientific community overwhelmingly asserts this no matter what their faiths or personal beliefs are, consistent with that they're dealing in science, not personal beliefs.
::::<p>Thus, although I see the relevance of the Zogby poll of the Los Alamos community, I do not see the relevance of the Harris Poll or any other. As for other polls of popular belief in the US, here are a couple more examples:
::::*A 2007 Newsweek poll found that 48% of respondents reject the theory of evolution .
::::*A 2007 CBS/New York Times poll found that "...51 percent of Americans say God created humans in their present form, and another three in 10 say that while humans evolved, God guided the process. Just 15 percent say humans evolved, and that God was not involved. These views are similar to what they were in November 2004" The 2004 CBS/New York Times poll summary said "Americans do not believe that humans evolved, and the vast majority says that even if they evolved, God guided the process. Just 13 percent say that God was not involved. But most would not substitute the teaching of creationism for the teaching of evolution in public schools."
:::: ... ] 21:00, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

== Origins of the Term==
Propose the following link to an extensive list of references on the origins and use of the term "Intelligent Design":

maintains the summarizing origins and use of the term "Intelligent Design". ] 19:29, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Kenosis
Please show the policy denying reference to any wiki. Misplaced Pages itself provides for numerous internal links which are by definition to a wiki. Misplaced Pages provides anti-ID links. If you deny any references to wikis, then you must also delete
*] 19:38, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

::This timeline, even if it is accurate, is more about the origins of the concept, not the term. I have to personally say, who cares? I mean really...--] 19:58, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

:::There's two problems here with using researchintelligentdesign.org, one, it's partisan, two, its a wiki, and so fails to meet WP:RS. It's also terribly incomplete. At first glance it's clearly lacking any mention of the context Thaxton and Pandas, such as Edwards v. Aguillard, most likely a function of its partisanship. ] 20:13, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

::::Wikis fail ] (not peer reviewed and lots of other stuff). Generally, encyclopedias are usually not allowed to be used as references. Also, since you yourself could edit the other article, using WP-articles as a reference violates ]. ] 20:15, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

:::::Well, well. He has edited the other article: Some may view this as an attempt to sneak pov in through the backdoor. ] 20:20, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

::::::In fact, that you are #2 on ResearchID's contributor Top 5 means there almost certainly is an OR conflict here. ] 20:37, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

:<p>That's a nice timeline, relatively very thorough even if it has some noticeable gaps.
:<p>(1) It is not conventional practice in WP to refer folks in the fashion proposed above, even internally within WP to such subpages, unless its an article about the timeline.
:<p>(2) In the case of intelligent design, we have two timelines involved, one of which is the history of the ], and the other of which is the history of the use of the words "intelligent design". The words "intelligent design" didn't become a term intended to describe a field of study until ''Of Pandas and People'', when they were used to replace the word "creation-" in response to the decision in ].
:<p>I notice, though, that Walter R. Thurston uses the words "intelligent design" and "intelligently designed" in a paper titled "Realism and Reverence" presented in 1985 at a conference on "Christian Faith and Science in Society", which was later published in June 1987, the same month of the ] decision, in . He uses the words in exactly the same way as James E. Horigan does in the 1979 philosophy book ''Chance or Design?''. I think this usage should be mentioned in the WP article section on "Origins of the term". ... ] 20:27, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
:::What about ]? It's heavily-referenced, non-partisian, and, frankly, could probably make ] easily. I'm sure Dave would release it to article space if we asked. ] <sup>]</sup> 04:27, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
::::As a separate article, perhaps. ] 20:32, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
<unindent> Methinks Adam's idea would be as a separate article: it could be stripped down to a more minimal timeline, or made into a brief historical outline. At present it's become more of a resource, with a lot of quotes etc. which could be paraphrased. On a point Kenosis makes, this is a third timeline, perhaps more about the ID movement though of course it and ID are inextricably connected. It currently seems to me that ID appeared fully formed between 1987 and 1989 with ''Pandas'' defining what it is and starting political lobbying, while in parallel Johnson's wedge ideas developed and didn't adopt the term until 1991 at the earliest. It would be helpful to know if '']'' uses the term "intelligent design" – all I've got at present is an unreliable source indicating a few mentions in the 1993 edition, but none of the reviews or Johnson's writings that I've seen mention ID. Certainly Behe contributed to ''Pandas'' rev. 2 in 1993, and by May 1995 Johnson is promoting the term. The DI takeover really seems to come with the CRSC in 1996. Perhaps this something y'all know about, but it's still a bit puzzling to me. Anyway, the ResearchID timeline is a useful guide to resources, though not a RS itself, but is largely focussed on giving a respectable pedigree to ID rather than finding out what's going on. In my opinion. ... ], ] 21:10, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
:So... that going to move into article space? If it does, we should link it in this article. ] <sup>]</sup> 12:22, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
::Thanks for making the move, ] is rather large and could do with more dates/events added, and a lot of the quotes removed or severely trimmed. Have made a start, Note the standard heading format would be '''Timeline of intelligent design''' – worth moving? .. ], ] 20:04, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
:::I added it to see also -- if you change the title, make sure you change the link and its ciolumn placement in this article. Either title is OK by me, although the latter might be more encyclopedic. ] 21:08, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
::::Hard to say. In a paper encyclopaedia, they sometimes game the titles to group 'em, soght be used to put it next to Intelligent design. ] <sup>]</sup> 21:22, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
:::The commonest format in ] is "Timeline of ...", and the same applies to ] where it seemed to belong.. ], ] 21:46, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
::::OK, so move it? Maybe? (You should see me trying to pick an entree from a menu ;) ] 15:23, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

== Need some assistance at ] ==

This looks like a bit of controversy.--] 16:21, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

== Intro: ID as Creationism ==
Could Morphh & Pasado please stop edit-warring and discuss there differences '''here'''! Specifically, could Morphh please explain why they think calling ID creationism is POV in spite of noted historian of creationism Ronald Numbers including a whole chapter on ID in his latest edition of ''The Creationists'' and in spite of Judge Jones declaring "...and moreover that ID cannot uncouple itself from its creationist, and thus religious, antecedents." Would he also consider these to be "POV" sources? ] 14:04, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

: The lead sentence of an article should briefly describe what the article is about and define the lead term. Please have a look at ], ], ], ], ], which are although not completely random, but still assorted examples from various wikipedia aticles. What also could be added to the lead sentence is a description or definition by the proponents or inventors of the term. In this case, the standpoint of the Discovery Institute could be included. Especially since the DI claims that ID is different from Creationism. Criticism, including interpretations by others of the term should follow later. ] 14:27, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
::A "brief description" of ID that does not provide the important information that ID is a variant of Creationism is arguably an inaccurate description. There is no necessity to include "a description or definition by the proponents or inventors of the term" -- an action that would often violate ]. Given that, far from being a reliable source, it is not too unreasonable to describe the DI as "a bunch of professional liars," I consider their claims to be immaterial. ] 15:39, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

:The lead of this article has a very long and greatly debated history (the most I've seen of any article on Misplaced Pages). So please go back and take a look if you wish to torture yourself. Any such change to the lead should not be introduced without serious discussion here first. I'll state, as I have in the summary, that I disagree this addition without debate and some consensus, of which I currently oppose the addition. Our Misplaced Pages definition of Creationism states the "belief that humanity, life, the Earth, and the universe were created in their entirety by a supernatural deity or deities (typically God), whose existence is presupposed." Obviously ID says nothing about these things being created in their entirety, in fact it says the opposite stating only that some complex features of life and the universe were created by an intelligent cause. ID doesn't specify deity or deities (presupposed or not), doesn't specify all life, the earth?... If you add on top of this that Creationism has come to be most strongly associated with the branch of Christian fundamentalism, the statement gives the reader a very inaccurate and misleading idea of ID. The statements of creationist, thus religious, is a POV presented in the trial by the Judge and the author that you specified. Such can be included in the article with the presented source for the opinion, but it is POV to state this as fact in the lead when there is nothing in ID itself that states or defines such an argument and a differing POV exists. ] <sup>]</sup> <small><i>14:31, 19 June 2007 (UTC)</i></small>

::Yes, changes to the lead need to be discussed here. Yes, ID ''is'' creationism (in a cheap tuxedo). No, I don't care about the Misplaced Pages definition of creationism, as Wikis do not meet ]. Is pointing out in the first sentence that ID is creationism POV? quite probably.
::Also, are you saying you oppose consensus? And what precisely does this mean, "The statements of creationist, thus religious, is a POV presented in the trial by the Judge"? ] 15:19, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

::# I rather doubt if anywhere in the "very long and greatly debated history" you will find a consensus that ID is not, or even may not be, Creationism.
::# The ] article includes a section on ID among the "types of creationism"
::# ID is a close relative of ]
::# "Indeed, intelligent design is just the Logos theology of John’s Gospel restated in the idiom of information theory." -- William Dembski, leading ID advocate, explicitly admitting ID's Biblical roots and close relationship with Christianity.
::# Throwing POV accusations at anybody and everybody who, on the basis of trial evidence and/or scholarly research, comes to the conclusion that ID is Creationism merely serves to to undermine ''your'' credibility, and to negate ]
::] 15:39, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

:::Jim, I oppose the addition not consensus. I was saying that the court ruling and the Judge's comment were a point of view that is debated. As such, I find it improper to label it as fact without attributing it. Hrafn42, I'm no throwing accusation - it is a point of view (opinion) ruled by the court with others differing on that opinion. It is also just confusing for most readers and I don't think it adds anything. ] <sup>]</sup> <small><i>15:52, 19 June 2007 (UTC)</i></small>
::::Morphh: You are ''grossly misrepresenting'' Judge Jones. It was not a ''personal'' opinion (i.e. a POV) it was a ''legal opinion'' based upon '''the law and the evidence'''. The only people claiming otherwise are the IDists themselves, who (1) have ''enormous'' credibility problems (due to their long track records of misrepresentations and outright lies) and (2) have a very strong ulterior motive in denying that ID is Creationism (as otherwise they wouldn't be able to have it taught in public school science classes). Read up ] ] 16:28, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

:There is already adequate reference in the article to intelligent design being creationist, or more specifically ]. This classification needn't, however, occur in the lead sentence, or for that matter anywhere in the lead. Morphh, who I presume will correct me if I'm wrong, appears to have asserted in the edit summary that it the proposed change is POV because (1) Judge Jones referred to "creationist, and thus religious ''antecedents''" (emphasis mine); (2) The Kitzmiller judge was stating that it is inherently religious, but not necessarily classifying it as creationist ''per se'' ; (3) ID has the characteristic of intentionally avoiding mention of God per the legal strategy of attempting to get it taught alongside evolution in US biology classes. So it's not necessarily very accurate or useful to the reader to be terming ID "creationist". Either way, this intro involved an immense amount of discussion to achieve some level of recent stability, and is not fair game for unilateral changes at this stage in time. Any significant changes would need to be discussed and achieve a new consensus. ... ] 17:31, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

::Reread the entire Dover ruling, the judge said specifically ID is creationism. ] 18:30, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
:::Creationism isn't mentioned in the lead in the current version. That should be fixed. ] 18:37, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
::::The last sentence in the lead discusses the Dover ruling and the Judge's statement - "cannot uncouple itself from its creationist, and thus religious, antecedents". ] <sup>]</sup> <small><i>2:36, 20 June 2007 (UTC)</i></small>

:: Kenosis, I am not sure that there is much difference between having "creationist...antecedents" (Judge Jones' words) and being "a variant of traditional creationism" (the proposed wording of the intro). Both indicate an outgrowth from an earlier form of creationism. Given that ID, like all earlier forms of Creationism, is at heart religiously-motivated anti-evolutionism, it would seem both accurate and useful to describe it as Creationism up-front, and leave discussing how it attempts to ''obfuscate'' its nature to later. An insect that is camouflaged to look like a leaf should be initially described as "an insect" not as "something that looks like a leaf." ] 18:42, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
:: Additionally, Jones stated: "The overwhelming evidence at trial established that ID is a religious view, a mere re-labeling of creationism, and not a scientific theory." He also pointed out: "Moreover and as previously stated, there is hardly better evidence of ID’s relationship with creationism than an explicit statement by defense expert Fuller that ID is a form of creationism." ] 18:55, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
:::Odd Nature, Raul, and Hrafn42 are correct that the Kitzmiller decision went farther than calling creationism an antecedent of ID, but indeed concluded that it was a form of creationism. There are also a few confusing statements in the decision and order, such as the quote from the NAS included in the decision ("Creationism, intelligent design, and other claims of supernatural intervention in the origin of life..."), and in a couple other places. In general it is clear that the court concluded it ''is'' a form of creationism. I'm going to collect relevant passages from Kitzmiller and post them here in Talk so it can be more knowledgeably discussed. ... ] 20:29, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
<unindent> Ooh, fun! Lots to hand at ], Page 31 of 139 has "A “hypothetical reasonable observer,” adult or child, who is “aware of the history and context of the community and forum” is also presumed to know that ID is a form of creationism.,, The evidence at trial demonstrates that ID is nothing less than the progeny of creationism. What is likely the strongest evidence supporting the finding of ID’s creationist nature is the history and historical pedigree of the book to which students in Dover’s ninth grade biology class are referred, Pandas.", Page 35 of 139 has " there is hardly better evidence of ID’s relationship with creationism than an explicit statement by defense expert Fuller that ID is a form of creationism." .. best read in context, .. ], ] 20:52, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

:The court ruling is not in dispute. The court also stated that ID is an argument for God but we sufficiently debated it enough that we removed the explicit statement of fact from the lead sentence. Same thing here but even more so - not only is it God but creation. Proponent have denied that it is creationism and ID itself makes no direct relation to such. In such a case, the statement has to be attributed to turn the opinion into fact. Personally, I don't see the point of having it in the lead sentence as it adds little to the definition and really just confuses it due to the popular meaning of creationism (not some abstract concept). Creationism, like God, is not a definition of ID but a conclusion based on the motives of DI and whatever the reader draws from the ID claim. It is also duplication and already stated in the lead's last sentence. I think this is the appropriate place where it discusses Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District and the ruling of Judge Jones. Perhaps we could wikilink creationist in this statement to make it more apparent. ] <sup>]</sup> <small><i>2:32, 20 June 2007 (UTC)</i></small>

::Morphh: The proponents' denial is entirely self-serving, as ID is ''stealth'' creationism (i.e. admitting it is creationism would negate the whole stealth thing). ID is '''closely related to''' ]. We have the expert opinion of two historians of science (one not generally considered to be a partisan) and the legal opinion of one Federal Court judge. Opposing this we have merely the "bare assertion" (to use Judge Jones' words) that ID is not Creationism of a bunch of people whose entire movement goes down the toilet when ID is admitted to be Creationism. Both ID and Creationism generally are, at core, nothing more than '''religiously-motivated anti-evolutionism'''. They are ''substantively'' identical even if, for legal reasons, they differ somewhat in form. Having this core identity front and centre is not "confusing" but rather is ''crucial'' to understanding ID. ] 03:38, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
:::Hrafn42, it's a bit unfair to say that they're "nothing more than religiously-motivated anti-evolutionism" – creationism as we now know it has also involved political motivations ever since it was started by ], and it's as much a battle between competing theologies in the ] as it is (as is often claimed) a struggle between religion and science. ... ], ] 08:43, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
::::Dave: what evidence have you that William Jennings Bryan's opposition to evolution was ''political'' rather than ''religious''? My impression was that his main anti-evolution campaigning occurred after his political career was over (or at least in the final stages of winding down), and that it was primarily religiously motivated. And it is often difficult to differentiate between the Fundamentalists' opposition to the Modernists and their opposition to the scientific (and other modern) ideas that Modernism embraces. Whilst Creationism may be part of a pervasive Fundamentalist worldview that opposes far more of the modern world than simply evolution, Creationism (including its latest reincarnation, ID) is that aspect of that worldview that is opposed to evolution. ] 10:26, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
:::You may be right about Bryan, but my understanding is that his campaigning against evolution began with opposition to German militarism and alleged WW1 atrocities – the political and religious aspects are intertwined, not so much one rather than the other. In Darwin's early years (1810-1840s) evolution was explicitly a political issue, supported by republicans and opposed by those wanting to uphold the aristocratic / feudal status quo in England. In the ], "Modernism" means ] and not the modern world – it's an argument between biblical literalism and ] interpreting the bible as a religious text related to the context of the times when it was written. That argument about interpretation continues, as can be seen from the response of various churches to ID. .. ], ] 11:27, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

:::Hrafn42, I understand the points you make and that DI is self-serving. I also don't disagree with the aspect that it is a conceptual form of creationism; however, I don't agree that it is appropriate to state it as fact in the lead sentence. The ] requires that, "where there are or have been conflicting views, these should be presented fairly. None of the views should be given undue weight or '''asserted as being the truth''', and all significant published points of view are to be presented, not just the most popular one. '''It should also not be asserted that the most popular view or some sort of intermediate view among the different views is the correct one.''' Readers are left to form their own opinions." (bolding added) I think the aspect of ID being deemed not science, religous, and a creationist argument is front and center taking up the majority of the lead. There is no need to inject this POV into the base definition. ] <sup>]</sup> <small><i>13:11, 20 June 2007 (UTC)</i></small>

::::But ] does not require us to give equal validity to pseudoscientific claims: ]. We also are explicitly directed not to give undue weight to ID's claims (since these are rejected by the ''vast'' majority of life scientists, and every neutral assessment of ID): ]. I don't mean to suggest that you are unaware of these facets of the NPOV policy, but I find your post a bit misleading. We are not required to be "fair and balanced" here just because a bunch of vocal wingnuts are screaming that ID is scientific and is ''not'' creationism. That said, I agree with you in calling ID a ''claim'' up front rather than a ''variant of creationism''. ] 13:50, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

:::::I'm not ignoring equal validity or undue weight. There is no weight or validity given to the view that it is not creationism. I'm not suggesting that we do. I'm only saying that we don't give total weight and total validity to one side as a matter of fact in the lead sentence, which is what is being suggested by Hrafn42 and Pasado. You're actually confirming my point by bringing up these other aspects of the policy. ] <sup>]</sup> <small><i>14:13, 20 June 2007 (UTC)</i></small>

Morphh:
*Why, given that you have admitted that ID is a form of Creationism, are you against stating it in the introductory sentence? This would seem to be like having an article about lions that didn't mention that they are a type of big cat in the introductory sentence. In my opinion, the three crucial points about ID are:
:# It is a form of Creationism
:# It argues that life is too complex to have evolved naturally.
:# It is promoted primarily (and almost exclusively) by the DI.
:Without knowing this information, you cannot hope to have even a superficial grasp of ID. Thus it is ''essential'' that these points be included in the introductory sentence.
*I would take your continual carping about the "ID is not Creationism" viewpoint, if you could even find ''one'' advocate of that viewpoint that was:
:# not entirely self-serving;
:# did not have a reputation for misrepresentation; and
:# had some level of scholarly standing to make the claim.
] 15:27, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

:How about the possibility of inserting this statement into the second sentence of the lead, such that it might read as follows: ''It is a form of ],<sup></sup>a modern form of the traditional ] for the existence of God, modified to avoid specifying the nature or identity of the designer.<sup></sup>'' <br>Footnote 4 might then cite to several appropriate passages from Kitzmiller v. Dover, and footnote 5 might cite to other sources independent of Kitzmiller? ... ] 15:45, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

::Does ID actually discuss any aspects of creation or is it just that ID is being used to argue creation? I could go for the second sentence. Perhaps something on the end to also state that it avoids identifying creation. ] <sup>]</sup> <small><i>16:00, 20 June 2007 (UTC)</i></small>
:::I would think this is adequately covered by the existing last phrase of the sentence and by other passages in the article. But it's just a thought at this point. ... ] 16:27, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
::::As far as I can see, the article currently doesn't explicitly state that ID is a form of Creationism until the 'Movement' section. The Judge Jones quote in the introduction says it implicitly, but is not as clear a statement of this as some of the other statements in his Decision, e.g: "The overwhelming evidence at trial established that ID is a religious view, a mere re-labeling of creationism, and not a scientific theory."

:::As it is ''stealth'' Creationism, ID makes no ''explicit'' mention of, or argument for, creation. Instead it ''implicitly'' frames the issue in such a way that it is clear that the intended answer is a '''supernatural omnipotent''' Designer, that is indistinguishable from a "Creator." ] 16:32, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
::::Yes, correct. The ways in which this issue is confounded by the inherent element of deceipt makes it a bit tough to state correctly and concisely. This is why, if ID is to be classified as a form of "creationism" in the lead, I suggest the editors dicuss it thoroughly and hopefully get it right on the first try. The lead has been far too labor intensive to be messing with it without careful consideration of what might need to be said, where to insert it, and how to state it, along with how to cite it properly. ... ] 17:08, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

::::The stealth aspect makes this something we have to write carefully to remain neutral. We had the same issue with specifying ID as an argument for the existence of God. We were able to write it as above to remain neutral by stating that it avoids specifying the nature and identiy of the designer. We need to do the same for creation. Here is my try at the sentence - ''It is a form of ],<sup></sup>a modern form of the traditional ] for the existence of God, modified to avoid specifying the nature of creation or identity of the designer.<sup></sup>'' ] <sup>]</sup> <small><i>17:10, 20 June 2007 (UTC)</i></small>
:::::Hmmm. I think you may be onto something. How about: ''It is a form of ],<sup></sup>a modern form of the traditional ] for the existence of God, modified to avoid specifying the identity of the designer or specifying the word "creation" .<sup></sup>'' ... ] 17:44, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
::::::Just as a copyediting exercise, reducing the "form of"s could result in: ''It is a form of ],<sup></sup>a modification of the traditional ] for the existence of God which avoids specifying the identity of the designer or using the word "creation" .<sup></sup>'' . .. ], ] 18:36, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
:::::::Does it go beyond not just using the word? It doesn't really address creation. From my understanding, it more so tries to disprove aspects of evolution and concludes that it must be intelligently designed. It doesn't go into how, why, where, when, who. So is it enough to say that it just doesn't say the word? It would seem more accurate to say ID is an argument for creationism rather then ID is a form of creationism. ] <sup>]</sup> <small><i>19:50, 20 June 2007 (UTC)</i></small>

Would it be less controversial to describe ID as ]:
{{quotation|Neo-creationism is a movement whose goal is to restate creationism in terms more likely to be well received by the public, policy makers, educators, and the scientific community. It aims to re-frame the debate over the origins of life in non-religious terms and without appeals to scripture. This comes in response to the 1987 ruling by the United States Supreme Court in Edwards v. Aguillard that creationism is an inherently religious concept and that advocating it as correct or accurate in public school curricula violates the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment.}}
This description seems to fit ID quite well (unsurprising, as ID is to date the only widely-promoted form on Neo-creationism). ] 18:16, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

:Neo-creationism may be a better choice though the second sentence is still a better place for it. I would not subsitute it in the first sentence. ] <sup>]</sup> <small><i>19:50, 20 June 2007 (UTC)</i></small>

:To change it to neocreationism you'd need a source that is more notable than the Dover trial ruling, since ID is already identified as creationism there, and I don't such a souce exists. Since neocreation is already subset of creationism, it's better to not muddle things and use the more familiar and better supported term in my opinion. ] 20:56, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

::Odd nature is right - while neocreationism is an appropriate descriptor, the Dover ruling called it creationist. Neocreationism is a subset of creationism - since ID has been described as both "creationist" and "neocreationist" it makes more sense to use the broader and more common term in the lead. ] 22:07, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
:::The last proposal as modified by Dave Souza was:
:::<p>*''It is a form of ],<sup></sup>a modification of the traditional ] for the existence of God which avoids specifying the identity of the designer or using the word "creation" .<sup></sup>'' .
:::<p>Is this the appropriate language? Thoughts? As well, we still need to discuss citations of course. ... ] 22:18, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
::::I made a comment above to the sentence that hasn't really been discussed. I doesn't seem to me that stating that it doesn't use the word "creation" is enough. The idea seems incomplete to me. ] <sup>]</sup> <small><i>2:15, 21 June 2007 (UTC)</i></small>
:::::I had a feeling this issue might be opening a proverbial can of worms. Perhaps this would best be comprised of a paragraph a bit later in the article summarizing Kitzmiller and the many commentators who've described ID in ways that amount to calling it "stealth creationism"? Such as in the "Overview" section? ... ] 02:32, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
<unindent>I don't think that the Dave/Morphh proposal works very well, purely as a matter of language. As it stands, it seems (to me, at least) to say that ''creationism'' is "a modification of the ... teleological argument", which isn't the case. There are two seperate propositions that this sentence asserts: (a) ID is a form of creationism, (b) ID is a version of the teleological argument; I don't see how these can be combined in one sentence, and I don't think that "It is a form of creationism ''and'' a modification of the teleological argument" would be acceptable. As I see it, this comes back to our perennial problem with the definition of ID. The statement "ID is a version of the teleological argument" depends on our defining ID as a claim/assertion/proposition, or whatever word we choose to be least contentious. If, however, we're moving towards a definition of ID as a form of creationism, then this isn't appropriate. Creationism isn't an argument (or a claim, or an assertion) - it's an ideology, or a viewpoint, or a ''Weltanschauung'', or something of the sort. Creationists (and ID proponents) may (and do) _use_ the teleological argument, but, if ID is defined as creationism, it becomes impossible to describe it _as_ the teleological argument. If we're going to define ID as creationism (which, naturally, I support), then we should say this up-front, and make it clear that "teleological argument" is a characterization of the DI statment. I would support something along the lines of:

Intelligent design is a form of creationism, based on the claim that "certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection." This claim is a modern form of the teleological argument for the existence of God, modified to avoid specifying the nature or identity of the designer.

But this goes even further than Pasado's proposed version, and is unlikely to be acceptable to everyone... ] 22:01, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

:There are plenty of reliable source that classify it as intelligent design creationism and the like, though I don't have the time to collect any right now. Adequately collected so they're ready to use, I wouldn't object to this statement. ... ] 22:27, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

:When you realize that Intelligent design is a variant of creationism the fog lifts and you can see that the "teleological argument" trappings are there to help hide this fact. And since creationism is not an argument for the existence of God I propose dropping the sentence about "teleological arguments". It is DI smoke and mirrors to make ID seem like something new.
:I also think "variant of creationism" is more accurate than "form of creationism". "Form" is used in the sidebar for the various forms of creationism, like "old earth", "new earth", etc.] 03:29, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

::Pasado, I have to disagree. I think linking ID to the teleological argument shows that it isn't anything new, and that at its heart, it's an attempt to rehash tired old arguments for the existence of god, dressing them up as science. I would support ] 04:17, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

:::ConfuciusOrnis, you are right. Creationism could be used as an argument for the existence of God. And since ID is a variant of creationism it too could be used an argument for the existence of God. But I think this is secondary to the root fact that ID is a variant of creationism. I would support expressing these thoughts along the lines of:

:::Intelligent design is creationism with the additional claim that "certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection." This claim is the traditional teleological argument for the existence of God, modified to avoid specifying the nature or identity of the designer.

:::Although we need to find a better word that "claim". It doesn't quite sound right. Any thoughts?] 04:05, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

::::As the cites from Kitzmiller v. Dover in the section immediately below indicate, IMO, any reference to "creationism" in the WP article lead needs to be closely accompanied by a more specific explanation than is afforded by a mere assertion that ID '''''is''''' a "form", "variant", "descendant", "type", or whatever single word might be chosen, of "creationism". The real issue is already explained in the "overview" section, that the words "creation", "creationist" and "creationism" were replaced with "design", "designed", and "intelligent design" in ''Of Pandas and People'', which happened to be the textbook that Dover high school students were intended by the Board of Education to be guided to investigate as an alternative to evolution as it was about to be taught to them in their standard biology class. IMO, there's little or no value added to this article by merely mentioning the word "creationist" or "creationism" in the lead, at least as has been proposed thus far. And part of the reason for this is the "stealth creationism" aspect of ID. Assisting the reader in identifying where exactly the "stealth" lies is something the article already does, a stragegy perhaps more accurately identified as ] than it would be called simply a form of ]. So I really see this debate as being about whether the word "creationism" should be mentioned as a class to which ID belongs right in the article lead, how it should be fit into an already crowded lead, and how to properly state this obvious fact in such a way that it is useful to the reader. As we've seen, well, it sort of does belong to the class of ideas called "creationism", and it sort of doesn't, so the "devil" here is in the details. Thus, I'd want to see more evidence of awareness of the need for attention to detail as to this issue among the participants as versus a mere agreement among participants that the word "creationism" should automatically be attached to ID in the lead without a clearer and more detailed explanation than has been proposed thus far in the discussion. ... ] 04:47, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

:::::The beginning paragraph should state the simple truth about this subject. The 20 KITZMILLER quotes you generously researched all point to the simple truth that ID is creationism with new clothes. As you say, the details of the intrigue and drama surrounding how this came to be are adequately covered in the article and cites. But the simple fact that ID is a variant of creationism needs to be covered up front. Not to do so is to do a disservice the reader. I propose the lead paragraph start with the following wording:

:::::Intelligent design is creationism with the additional claim that "certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection." This claim is the traditional teleological argument for the existence of God, modified to avoid specifying the nature or identity of the designer.

:::::P.S. I searched for the term "neo-creationism" in the Forrest paper and in the KITZMILLER ruling and found no hits.] 06:25, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

::::::I oppose this suggested lead. It defines ID as a prominent conclusion (discussed in Kitzmiller) as a matter of fact and relegates the technical definition to an "additional claim". ID doesn't go into how, why, where, when, or who as far as I know. As you state, it is "stealth". Therefore, it is only defined as creationism as a matter of opinion (yes a neutral court ruled opinion). However, I don't think we should state this as fact just because we believe the source to be neutral or "truth". Proponents disagree that it is creationism (self serving or not) and ID doesn't define common normal elements of creation. IMO there is validity in the thought that ID itself is not a form of creation but a means to argue it. Therefor, I can not support a lead that states creationism as fact without stating that either Kitzmiller states it and / or ID does not contain such common elements. However, I'm also with Kenosis in that I'm not convinced that it need be covered in more detail in the lead. Kitzmiller and the Judge Jones quote is present (which states this) and the article goes on to discuss the matter in detail. The statement is proper in this context and the lead summarizes it nicely. ] <sup>]</sup> <small><i>12:12, 24 June 2007 (UTC)</i></small>

:::::::"ID doesn't go into how, why, where, when, or who as far as I know." This is in fact the point. By refusing to be tied down on "how" IDers are implicitly defining their 'Designer' as omnipotent. By refusing "why," ineffable. By refusing "where" and "when," omnipresent. By refusing "who," undetectable. This ''complete'' lack of ''testible'' specifics is one of the reasons that it is outside science. The fact that all of these evasions lead back to widely known attributes of the Abrahamic God is what makes it stealth Creationism.] 13:29, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

::::::::To quote Ayn Rand in Atlas Shrugged &mdash; "You who are worshippers of the zero–you have never discovered that achieving life is not the equivalent of avoiding death. Joy is not 'the absence of pain,' intelligence is not 'the absence of stupidity,' light is not 'the absence of darkness,' an entity is not 'the absence of a nonentity.' Building is not done by abstaining from demolition; centuries of sitting and waiting in such abstinence will not raise one single girder for you to abstain from demolishing–and now you can no longer say to me, the builder: 'Produce, and feed us in exchange for our not destroying your production.' I am answering in the name of all your victims: Perish with and in your own void. Existence is not a negation of negatives." ] <sup>]</sup> <small><i>19:18, 24 June 2007 (UTC)</i></small>
:::::::::Is there an argument, let alone ''substantiation'' for an argument in that lengthy diatribe of assertions? I don't think so. And the Abrahamic God is most certainly defined be an ''absense'' of limitations. ] 02:57, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

::::::::::The point was to point out the diatribe of assertions being used as a method of absence or "lack of" for defining that which is not stated. An example being your claim that the Abrahamic God is the absense of limitations. The very nature of defining said God applies limitations - that which is defined as all that is Good and the paridise of heaven is limited by constraints of Evil, paths for forgiveness, or a hell for those who he "saves". ] <sup>]</sup> <small><i>13:04, 25 June 2007 (UTC)</i></small>

:::::::::::"that which is defined to be all that is Good" is defined so ''ineffably'' as to include incitement to commit rape, murder, infanticide and genocide as well as permission to keep slaves and barbaric punishments as "all that is Good," and thus is meaningless from any determinative viewpoint. "God is good, and God did it so it must be good" is circular reasoning and no genuine limitation at all. And given that we can only speculate about the workings of heaven, they are likewise not a genuine limitation. ] 13:48, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

::::::::::::I think we've gone off topic. :-) ] <sup>]</sup> <small><i>14:26, 25 June 2007 (UTC)</i></small>

:(ri) Did Rand ever write anything meaningful? I shrug. ] 19:28, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Morphh wishes to return to the topic. To summarise:
#By refusing to be tied down on "how, why, where, when, or who," IDers implicitly define a 'designer' who is omnipotent, ineffable, omnipresent and undetectable, i.e. the Abrahamic God.
#Morphh ''asserts'' that you cannot define something by an absence of features, a logically vacuous assertion that he can only back up by a muddled Randian diatribe, but not with any genuine limitations on the Abrahamic God.
So Morphh, if this omnipotent, ineffable, omnipresent and undetectable designer isn't the Abrahamic God, then who is (s)he?] 14:58, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

::Does ID state the designer is omnipotent, ineffable, omnipresent and undetectable? That's right.. it is implicit by its non-definition. And we should assert this as fact... Ok.. Nope don't think so. The Rand quote was an attempt at humor to address the point - I need not back up anything. I think I'm going to wait for some others to comment a little further as this back and forth is not getting us anywhere. ] <sup>]</sup> <small><i>15:12, 25 June 2007 (UTC)</i></small>

:::"Does ID state the designer is omnipotent, ineffable, omnipresent and undetectable?" Of course not! The first rule of ID is '''don't talk about the designer!''' Only talk about ''fallacious'' claims about what evolution cannot do, with the clear implication that anything, ''anything'', '''anything''' that evolution purportedly couldn't do, the designer did. Can do anything=omnipotent. ] 15:50, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm sick of all this. We have three ''reputable sources'' (the Kitzmiller descision, Ronald Numbers and Barbara Forrest) that ID is Creationism. We have been presented with no reputable sources to the contrary, just a bunch of shoddy OR and hearsay. Therefore I would suggest that, unless and until evidence from reputable sources is presented that ID is not in fact Creationism, that ID should be ''prominantly'' described as Creationism in the article. ] 15:50, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

:Quick Google search:
:*, By: Stephen C Meyer, The Daily Telegraph (London), February 9, 2006
:* By: John G. West, Research News and Opportunities in Science and Theology, December 1, 2002
:*
:*"Intelligent design is not and never will be a doctrine of creation.", William Dembski, No Free Lunch pg. 314
:To your point above, I did a quick search. I'm just making the point that the issue is disputed. This creates an NPOV issue when you state it as fact. ] <sup>]</sup> <small><i>16:34, 25 June 2007 (UTC)</i></small>

Let's take a look at Morphh's 'reliable sources':
*Stephen C Meyer: faux-paleontologist, DI VP, and co-author of ''Intelligent Design in Public School Science Curriculum: A Legal Guidebook''
*John G. West: faux-legal expert, DI Senior Fellow
*William Dembski: faux-Information Theorist(''No Free Lunch'' was described by the co-inventor of the No Free Lunch Theorems as "written in jello"), producer of fart-videos, DI Senior Fellow
None of the these individuals have a reputation for honesty or good scholarship. All of them have a reputation for making unfounded claims outside their fields of expertise. None of the sources cited are scholarly. Additionally, all are members of the DI, so have a ''vested interest'' in denying that ID is Creationism.

Additionally, I would like to introduce the following quote from Phillip Johnson as an 'admission against interest' (i.e. the ''opposite'' of a self-serving statement, and thus a statement with considerable evidential value):
{{quotation|My colleagues and I speak of "theistic realism" -- or sometimes, "mere creation" --as the defining concept of our movement. This means that we affirm that God is objectively real as Creator, and that the reality of God is tangibly recorded in evidence accessible to science, particularly in biology. We avoid the tangled arguments about how or whether to reconcile the Biblical account with the present state of scientific knowledge, because we think these issues can be much more constructively engaged when we have a scientific picture that is not distorted by naturalistic prejudice. If life is not simply matter evolving by natural selection, but is something that had to be designed by a creator who is real, then the nature of that creator, and the possibility of revelation, will become a matter of widespread interest among thoughtful people who are currently being taught that evolutionary science has show God to be a product of the human imagination.}}
] 17:08, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Let me respond to West's baseless assertions:
#"'Intelligent Design Creationism' is a pejorative term" -- like "Darwinists" isn't? Talk about pot calling the kettle black.
#Just like ], intelligent design claims to be based on science, not sacred texts.
#Creationists know that intelligent design theory is creationism -- that's why there are so many YECs in the ID movement.
#Unlike the Theory of Evolution, which has a large following both from theists and atheists, design theory is promoted almost exclusively by conservative Christians.
#Fair-minded critics recognize the significant historical and ideological overlap between intelligent design and creationism.
] 17:38, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Additionally, one of Morphh's own sources, William Dembski, is the author of a book entitled ''Mere Creation; Science, Faith & Intelligent Design''-- a ''very'' odd title if "Intelligent design is not and never will be a doctrine of creation." ] 17:50, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

:Morphh, there is such a large amount of substantial documentation that intelligent design is a form of creationism that no reasonable person could deny it. Anyone who denies it obviously has a serious problem with facing reality. Statements that intelligent design is not creationism are even more suspect because the entire DI strategy relies on trying to position their movement as not creationism to avoid legal restrictions; in other words, to attempt to break the law.--] 17:56, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Further, if ID is not Creationism, then why did numerous ID proponents (including two of Morphh's sources, William Demsbki and Stephen C Meyer) present a conference entitled ''Mere Creation: Scholars United Under Intelligent Design''? ] 18:00, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

:Calm down.. I just did a 2 sec goggle search for sources. Not like I research it. It was to show there is debate about the issue. We had the same issue with stating "ID is an argument for the existence of God" as fact (using the same sources you're presenting). After several article locks and over a month of debating, we came to a compromise. ID is not science but we do not state it as fact as DI argues that it is a scientific theory. We present both sides with the argument that it has been found by the scientific community to not be science or that it is God (but that it does not specify) or in this case that it is a form of creationism. We can not dismiss DI as unreliable and therefor not an appropriate source for support or opposition. Heck.. they are ID in many ways. Their POV is of primary importance to this article. Since there is dispute, both should be present and neither should be presented as "truth". As it is worded now, I oppose the addition but I'm not dismissing it and I'm willing to come to some compromise with adding it. Thoughts on compromise: Not in the first sentence, Attributed the statement to those making it and the point that some disagree or why they disagree. While I personally think it is a argument for creation rather than a form of creation, so long as we attribute it and mention that it is disputed.. I could come to support the addition. ] <sup>]</sup> <small><i>19:17, 25 June 2007 (UTC)</i></small>

::Compromise is good...but can we start a new section? This one is really long. BTW, I know the Rand quote was meant as humour, but is so often virtually deified that I've become hyper-critical of anything she's written. I see her writings as a lot of words with little substance. Oh well....back to the topic... ] 19:27, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

::"We can not dismiss DI as unreliable and therefor not an appropriate source for support or opposition." Why not, when we have: (1)a strong motive for DI dishonesty; and (2) clear evidence of DI dishonesty (in that they say both that ID is and is not "creation"). Such blatant self-contradiction surely renders their testimony worthless, except perhaps as evidence of their duplicitousness.
::"Their POV is of primary importance to this article." '''Which of their points of view?''' That ID isn't Creationism, or that it is '''"Mere Creation"'''? ] 02:47, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

::::Two different terms there. Again this is likely the application of ID to their beliefs. They don't think ID is creationism but they use ID to argue for creation. It is all dependent on the context and we can't infer one from the other IMO. ] <sup>]</sup> <small><i>13:54, 26 June 2007 (UTC)</i></small>

:::::"Two different terms there." <b>BALONEY!</b>
:::::#"Intelligent design is not and never will be a doctrine of <b>creation</b>." - William Dembski. <i>Mere <b>Creation</b>; Science, Faith & Intelligent Design</i> - book by William Dembski. <b>Same term</b>
:::::#"Mere Creation" is merely Creationism that has been stripped of all its overtly supernatural terminology (i.e. ]).
:::::] 05:40, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

:::William Demsbki and Stephen C Meyer were to testify at Kitzmiller but they withdrew from the case. It they had testified they would have been exposed to cross examination. This action weakens their creditability in my mind.] 03:39, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

::::Irrelevant speculation. ] <sup>]</sup> <small><i>13:54, 26 June 2007 (UTC)</i></small>

:::::The first two sentences are relevant facts. The third is my opinion. This is a relevant speculation: If I had spent 10+ years trying to get schools to teach ID and then one of them did and got sued over it, I would go testify to support my cause. That would show integrity.

:::::Cites by people with low integrity are lower quality cites than cites from people who have shown more integrity. This should be a factor in deciding on the lead paragraph content.] 05:19, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Earlier I told Morphh:
*I would take your continual carping about the "ID is not Creationism" viewpoint , if you could even find ''one'' advocate of that viewpoint that was:
:# not entirely self-serving;
:# did not have a reputation for misrepresentation; and
:# had some level of scholarly standing to make the claim.
I would like to point out that ''none'' of the sources Morphh cited satisfy ''any'' of these three points. ]


==Locations in Kitzmiller v. Dover of references to Intelligent design as a form of creationism==
Here are citations from ] that refer to ID as a form of creationism, or explain in some relevant way how it is a form of creationism, with page numbers. ... ] 22:30, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

p18
An Objective Observer Would Know that ID and Teaching
About “Gaps” and “Problems” in Evolutionary Theory are
Creationist, Religious Strategies that Evolved from Earlier
Forms of Creationism

p31-32
A “hypothetical reasonable observer,” adult or child, who is “aware of the
history and context of the community and forum” is also presumed to know that ID
is a form of creationism. Child Evangelism, 386 F.3d at 531 (citations omitted);
Allegheny, 492 U.S. at 624-25. The evidence at trial demonstrates that ID is
nothing less than the progeny of creationism. What is likely the strongest evidence
supporting the finding of ID’s creationist nature is the history and historical
pedigree of the book to which students in Dover’s ninth grade biology class are
referred, Pandas. Pandas is published by an organization called FTE, as noted,
whose articles of incorporation and filings with the Internal Revenue Service
describe it as a religious, Christian organization. (P-461; P-28; P-566; P-633;
p32
Buell Dep. 1:13, July 8, 2005). Pandas was written by Dean Kenyon and Percival
Davis, both acknowledged creationists, and Nancy Pearcey, a Young Earth
Creationist, contributed to the work. (10:102-08 (Forrest)).

p32 As Plaintiffs meticulously and effectively presented to the Court, Pandas
went through many drafts, several of which were completed prior to and some after
the Supreme Court’s decision in Edwards, which held that the Constitution forbids
teaching creationism as science. By comparing the pre and post Edwards drafts of
Pandas, three astonishing points emerge: (1) the definition for creation science in
early drafts is identical to the definition of ID; (2) cognates of the word creation
(creationism and creationist), which appeared approximately 150 times were
deliberately and systematically replaced with the phrase ID; and (3) the changes
occurred shortly after the Supreme Court held that creation science is religious and
cannot be taught in public school science classes in Edwards. This word
substitution is telling, significant, and reveals that a purposeful change of words
was effected without any corresponding change in content, which directly refutes
FTE’s argument that by merely disregarding the words “creation” and
“creationism,” FTE expressly rejected creationism in Pandas. In early pre-
Edwards drafts of Pandas, the term “creation” was defined as “various forms of life
that began abruptly through an intelligent agency with their distinctive features

p33
intact – fish with fins and scales, birds with feathers, beaks, and wings, etc,” the
very same way in which ID is defined in the subsequent published versions. (P-
560 at 210; P-1 at 2-13; P-562 at 2-14, P-652 at 2-15; P-6 at 99-100; P-11 at 99-
100; P-856.2.). This definition was described by many witnesses for both parties,
notably including defense experts Minnich and Fuller, as “special creation” of
kinds of animals, an inherently religious and creationist concept. (28:85-86
(Fuller); Minnich Dep. at 34, May 26, 2005; Trial Tr. vol. 1, Miller Test., 141-42,
Sept. 26, 2005; 9:10 (Haught); Trial Tr. vol. 33, Bonsell Test., 54-56, Oct. 31,
2005). Professor Behe’s assertion that this passage was merely a description of
appearances in the fossil record is illogical and defies the weight of the evidence
that the passage is a conclusion about how life began based upon an interpretation
of the fossil record, which is reinforced by the content of drafts of Pandas.
The weight of the evidence clearly demonstrates, as noted, that the systemic
change from “creation” to “intelligent design” occurred sometime in 1987, after
the Supreme Court’s important Edwards decision. This compelling evidence
strongly supports Plaintiffs’ assertion that ID is creationism re-labeled.
Importantly, the objective observer, whether adult or child, would conclude from
the fact that Pandas posits a master intellect that the intelligent designer is God.
Further evidence in support of the conclusion that a reasonable observer,

p34
adult or child, who is “aware of the history and context of the community and
forum” is presumed to know that ID is a form of creationism concerns the fact that
ID uses the same, or exceedingly similar arguments as were posited in support of
creationism. One significant difference is that the words “God,” “creationism,”
and “Genesis” have been systematically purged from ID explanations, and replaced
by an unnamed “designer.” Dr. Forrest testified and sponsored exhibits showing
six arguments common to creationists. (10:140-48 (Forrest); P-856.5-856.10).
Demonstrative charts introduced through Dr. Forrest show parallel arguments
relating to the rejection of naturalism, evolution’s threat to culture and society,
“abrupt appearance” implying divine creation, the exploitation of the same alleged
gaps in the fossil record, the alleged inability of science to explain complex
biological information like DNA, as well as the theme that proponents of each
version of creationism merely aim to teach a scientific alternative to evolution to
show its “strengths and weaknesses,” and to alert students to a supposed
“controversy” in the scientific community. (10:140-48 (Forrest)). In addition,
creationists made the same argument that the complexity of the bacterial flagellum
supported creationism as Professors Behe and Minnich now make for ID. (P-853;
P-845; 37:155-56 (Minnich)). The IDM openly welcomes adherents to creationism
into its “Big Tent,” urging them to postpone biblical disputes like the age of the

p35
earth. (11:3-15 (Forrest); P-429). Moreover and as previously stated, there is
hardly better evidence of ID’s relationship with creationism than an explicit
statement by defense expert Fuller that ID is a form of creationism. (Fuller Dep. at
67, June 21, 2005) (indicated that ID is a modern view of creationism).
Although contrary to Fuller, defense experts Professors Behe and Minnich
testified that ID is not creationism, their testimony was primarily by way of bare
assertion and it failed to directly rebut the creationist history of Pandas or other
evidence presented by Plaintiffs showing the commonality between creationism
and ID. The sole argument Defendants made to distinguish creationism from ID
was their assertion that the term “creationism” applies only to arguments based on
the Book of Genesis, a young earth, and a catastrophic Noaich flood; however,
substantial evidence established that this is only one form of creationism, including
the chart that was distributed to the Board Curriculum Committee, as will be
described below. (P-149 at 2; 10:129-32 (Forrest); P-555 at 22-24).
Having thus provided the social and historical context in which the ID
Policy arose of which a reasonable observer, either adult or child would be aware,
we will now focus on what the objective student alone would know. We will
accordingly determine whether an objective student would view the disclaimer
read to the ninth grade biology class as an official endorsement of religion.


p42
In other words, the disclaimer relies upon the very same
“contrived dualism” that the court in McLean recognized to be a creationist tactic
that has “no scientific factual basis or legitimate educational purpose.” McLean,
529 F. Supp. at 1266.6
6 The McLean court explained that:
The approach to teaching ‘creation science’ and ‘evolution science’ . . . is identical to the
two-model approach espoused by the Institute for Creation Research and is taken almost
verbatim from ICR writings. It is an extension of Fundamentalists’ view that one must
either accept the literal interpretation of Genesis or else believe in the godless system of
evolution.
The two model approach of creationists is simply a contrived dualism which has no
scientific factual basis or legitimate educational purpose. It assumes only two
explanations for the origins of life and existence of man, plants and animals: it was either
the work of a creator or it was not. Application of these two models, according to
creationists, and the defendants, dictates that all scientific evidence which fails to support
the theory of evolution is necessarily scientific evidence in support of creationism and is,
therefore, creation science ‘evidence’
529 F. Supp. at 1266 (footnote omitted)(emphasis added).

p43
The overwhelming evidence at trial established that ID is a religious view, a
mere re-labeling of creationism, and not a scientific theory.

p44
Whether a student accepts the Board’s invitation to explore Pandas,
and reads a creationist text, or follows the Board’s other suggestion and discusses
“Origins of Life” with family members, that objective student can reasonably infer
that the District’s favored view is a religious one, and that the District is
accordingly sponsoring a form of religion.

p49
In summary, the disclaimer singles out the theory of evolution for special
treatment, misrepresents its status in the scientific community, causes students to
doubt its validity without scientific justification, presents students with a religious
alternative masquerading as a scientific theory, directs them to consult a creationist
text as though it were a science resource, and instructs students to forego scientific
inquiry in the public school classroom and instead to seek out religious instruction
elsewhere.

p56
An objective adult member of the Dover community would also be
presumed to know that ID and teaching about supposed gaps and problems in
evolutionary theory are creationist religious strategies that evolved from earlier
forms of creationism, as we previously detailed.

p69-70
Creationism, intelligent design, and other claims of
supernatural intervention in the origin of life or of species
are not science because they are not testable by the
methods of science. These claims subordinate observed
data to statements based on authority, revelation, or

70
religious belief. Documentation offered in support of
these claims is typically limited to the special
publications of their advocates. These publications do
not offer hypotheses subject to change in light of new
data, new interpretations, or demonstration of error. This
contrasts with science, where any hypothesis or theory
always remains subject to the possibility of rejection or
modification in the light of new knowledge.

p71
ID is at bottom premised upon a false dichotomy, namely, that to the extent
evolutionary theory is discredited, ID is confirmed. (5:41 (Pennock)). This
argument is not brought to this Court anew, and in fact, the same argument, termed
“contrived dualism” in McLean, was employed by creationists in the 1980's to
support “creation science.” The court in McLean noted the “fallacious pedagogy
of the two model approach” and that “n efforts to establish ‘evidence’ in support
of creation science, the defendants relied upon the same false premise as the two
model approach . . . all evidence which criticized evolutionary theory was proof in
support of creation science.” McLean, 529 F. Supp. at 1267, 1269. We do not find
this false dichotomy any more availing to justify ID today than it was to justify
creation science two decades ago.

p91
The purpose inquiry involves consideration of the ID Policy’s language,
“enlightened by its context and contemporaneous legislative history” including,
in this case, the broader context of historical and ongoing religiously driven
attempts to advance creationism while denigrating evolution. (citing to Selman,
390 F. Supp. Supp. 2d at 1300; and Edwards v. Aguilard)

p107
Accordingly, as accurately submitted by Plaintiffs, we find that the Board
Curriculum Committee knew as early as June 2004 that ID was widely considered
by numerous observers to be a form of creationism.

p112
There is no evidence that the Board heeded even one iota of the Solicitor’s
detailed and prudent warning. We also find the email to be persuasive, additional
evidence that the Board knew that ID is considered a form of creationism.

p114
The testimony at trial stunningly revealed that Buckingham and Bonsell
tried to hide the source of the donations because it showed, at the very least, the
extraordinary measures taken to ensure that students received a creationist
alternative to Darwin’s theory of evolution.

p120
Finally,
Spahr warned the full Board that ID amounted to creationism and could not be
taught legally. (24:102 (Nilsen); 35:14-15 (Baksa)).

p131
As exhaustively detailed
herein, the thought leaders on the Board made it their considered purpose to inject
some form of creationism into the science classrooms, and by the dint of their
personalities and persistence they were able to pull the majority of the Board along
in their collective wake.

p136
... we have addressed the seminal question of whether ID is science. We have
concluded that it is not, and moreover that ID cannot uncouple itself from its
creationist, and thus religious, antecedents.

:22:27, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

==Removed sentence==
"In the same book, he also points out that natural selection is in many ways the opposite of chance. Dembski's specified complexity may eliminate chance, perhaps, but it says nothing about natural selection." Is this really POV? What do you think?--] 15:48, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
:I don't like the sentence, not so much because it may be POV, but because it appears to be OR, is poorly phrased, and is getting somewhat tangential (in that criticism of CS is better situated in the main article on that). ] 16:48, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
::Two questions. 1. In what sense is this comment a POV? Natural selection is not equivalent to chance. Anyone equating the two does not understand natural selection. 2. What does OR mean? It is not in the Misplaced Pages Edit summary legend ].
::I'm prepared to concede that this comment is misplaced and not well phrased, but if that's the case, then why not suggest better phrasing and move it rather than dismissing it out of hand? ] 13:35, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

:::OR means Original Research (see ] policy) and I went ahead and added it to the Edit summary legend. ] <sup>]</sup> <small><i>13:53, 21 June 2007 (UTC)</i></small>

== UK gov stance is ID...should not be taught as science. ==

From,
http://www.number-10.gov.uk/output/Page12021.asp
or The register spin,
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/06/25/id_not_science/

"The Government is clear that creationism and intelligent design are not part of the science National Curriculum programmes of study and should not be taught as science."

Well at least the UK is a lot clearer !.] 12:07, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

:Good find!--]] 12:09, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

::An interesting re-phrasing of the statement made in December as currently included in ]. The Qualifications and Curriculum Authority is taking its time getting its guidance together! Note that this applies to England and Wales, not Scotland and NI though approx zero chance of ID here, I'd hope. .. ], ] 12:24, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
:::Wow! http://intelligentdesignr.org.uk/ has all the answers! .. ], ] 12:37, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

:::All bollocks eh? ROFL. ] 22:20, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

== Mere Creation ==
Morphh has suggested that both (all?) sides should be presented. Taking him at his word, I would like to suggest the following section, entitled 'Mere Creation':
{{quotation|Although proponents of intelligent design frequently deny that it is Creationism or has a religious foundation, they also frequently discuss intelligent design in explicitly religious, and even Creationist, terms. Phillip Johnson has called "Mere Creation" the "defining concept of our movement," and this concept has made its way into book (''Mere Creation; Science, Faith & Intelligent Design'' by William Dembski) and conference (''Mere Creation: Scholars United Under Intelligent Design'', a conference at which several prominent intelligent design advocates, including Stephen C. Meyer, William A. Dembski, Michael J. Behe and Phillip Johnson, presented) titles on the subject. Dembski has described intelligent design as "just the Logos theology of John's Gospel restated in the idiom of information theory."}}
] 03:17, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

:Sections in this article should not be created for any of the books on this subject matter, as each already has its own article in WP. And the article on ] is itself a stub. As to the article on intelligent design, all sides already are presented in the article. The only relevant question in the discussion above is whether to state in the article lead that intelligent design belongs to the class of things called "creationism", or whether, given the complexities and inherent deceptiveness of ID, the existing explanations in the article are sufficient to adequately inform the reader.
:<p>If anything requires a section, it seems to me that the issue of whether ID is a form of creationism may require one, in light of the complexities already discussed above. There already is a section on defining ID as science, so I don't see any reason to rule out a brief section summarizing the relationship of ID to the class of beliefs, philosophies and advocacy positions that, according to the ], are reasonably termed "creationism". ... ] 14:37, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

::That would make sense. ] 22:21, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

::It would serve the article to not have a deceptive lead sentence. "Intelligent design is the claim that 'certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection.'" is deceptive because that DI quote is their smokescreen to make ID seem like something new and "not creationism". Using the word "claim" does not indicate this deception. Wiktionary defines claim as "A new statement of truth made about something". This sentence could be the lead on the DI website.

::Instead state in the lead that ID is a form of creationism that is promoted using deceptive practices. This would agree with the rest of the content of the article. ] 06:18, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

:::Such would be a violation of NPOV policy. As far as the current lead sentence and the lead in general, it went through a very very long debate process. While we're discussing this here, we should also consider similar statements on the articles ], which states in the lead "... its Teach the Controversy campaign to get creationist beliefs taught in United States ... " and ] that states "to promote intelligent design, a variant of traditional creationism, while discrediting evolution in United States". I'm not sure the Discovery Institute lead is an issue but the Teach the Controversy has some of the issues discussed here. ] <sup>]</sup> <small><i>14:15, 27 June 2007 (UTC)</i></small>

::::"Such would be a violation of NPOV policy." Morphh: read ]. There is not requirement to make allowance for a fringe viewpoint that is discredited, dishonest, contradictory and self-serving. Incidentally, if ID isn't Creationism, then why does the DI have so many theologians and so few practising biologists? ] 14:40, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

:::::DI has due weight as this topic is primarily about them. You are more then welcome to present the case for how they are discredited, dishonest, contradictory, and self-serving. But you can not state these as fact, you can not make the judgement for the reader, NPOV - no bias - the reader must decided based on the argument! Don't present one side as fact if disputed, attribute the source of the statement, present the other view. ] <sup>]</sup> <small><i>14:56, 27 June 2007 (UTC)</i></small>

::::::*"DI has due weight as this topic is primarily about them." This is simply wishful thinking. ] '''says no such thing!'''
::::::*There is more than sufficient evidence of the DI's dishonesty and lack of credibility on its, and its members', articles already. I really don't need to go into any further details.
::::::*"But you can not state these as fact, you can not make the judgement for the reader, NPOV - no bias - the reader must decided based on the argument! Don't present one side as fact if disputed, attribute the source of the statement, present the other view." '''Read the policy!''' It says: "If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small (or vastly limited) minority, it does not belong in Misplaced Pages (except perhaps in some ancillary article) regardless of whether it is true or not; and regardless of whether you can prove it or not." The only people saying that ID isn't Creationism is the DI themselves (except when they themselves are admitting that its Creationism).
::::::] 16:10, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

:::::::*Undue weight is about balancing views. Your not trying to balance views. Your trying to elevate one view as truth and exclude the other.
:::::::*DI failes to qualify as an extremely small (or vastly limited ) minority. If you were to qualify them in such a way (which I don't believe is appropriate as the article is about them), they would be classified as a significant minority per Jimbo's definition. As far as them admitting that it is creationism, you ofter no distinction between using ID to further beliefs of creation and a creator vs the belief that ID itself is a form of creation. These are two very distinct statements. There are plenty of sources that state a distinction between creationism and ID. There are also sources that state "critics claim that ID is creationism". Is it not obvious that stating ID as creationism is a POV and should follow NPOV guidelines in attributing the statement? Even the simple prestatement of "critics claim" is enough to make the statement factual. ] <sup>]</sup> <small><i>16:40, 27 June 2007 (UTC)</i></small>
:::::::"they would be classified as a significant minority" How are they "significant"? They are not numerically significant, and they lack both significant relevant expertise and significant scholarly stature. They are simply a bunch of vocal, self-appointed cranks. ] 17:21, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

::::::::Jimbo states it like this: If a viewpoint is held by a significant minority, then it should be easy to name prominent adherents; It is easy to name prominent adherents. In addition, the point is sort of irrelevant as views that are held by a tiny minority should not be represented except in articles devoted to those views, which this article would cover views of DI obviously. ] <sup>]</sup> <small><i>19:19, 27 June 2007 (UTC)</i></small>

:::::::::'''Congratulations Morphh, you just flunked Logic 101.''' "If a viewpoint is held by a significant minority, then it should be easy to name prominent adherents" '''does not mean''' that if it is easy to name prominent adherents, then it must be a significant minority. Nameable prominent adherents is a '''necessary''' condition, but that does not mean that it is a '''sufficient''' condition, for it to be a significant minority. Again, how are the DI "significant"? ] 04:31, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

::::::::::You're bordering on issues of ], so ] and ]... Again the point is irrelevant as the article is devoted in many respects to those views of DI. This makes DI one of the more significant viewpoints to be present in this article. Since all the primary proponents of ID are associated with DI, it would be a completely one sided article if DI was dismissed as POV not worth presenting. ] <sup>]</sup> <small><i>0:29, 01 July 2007 (UTC)</i></small>

:Don't see a need for the section or any further explanation. What ID proponents claim about ID not being creationism but science and what the courts and the scientific community say about it is already very clearly covered. Also, "Mere Creation" is an allusion used by Johnson to CS Lewis' Mere Christianity. It's use here would be confusing. ] 16:30, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
::Thus, the questioon appears to remain, given the "stealth creationism" aspect, obfuscations, and differences of views within the sphere of the leading ID advocates, where in the lead should it be mentioned?, and how should the relationship to creationism should be characterized?. No one seems to be able to agree on this thus far. ... ] 17:05, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

=== "No it isn't" ===
A link to this cartoon is contained in ]: http://www.idrewthis.org/d/20040825.html I think it's topical. ] 17:23, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

== External Links - IDEA Center ==

I don't see anything wrong with having in the links. Besides ] removing it for incorrect reasons like "Undergraduate clubs", who objects? --] 15:42, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

===For===
is much more informative and relevant to this article than the site's front page. --] 15:47, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

The site is not a undergraduate club or even a club. Please, read . --] 15:47, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

] is reverting with false reasoning. S/he should read . --] 15:47, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

The FAQ and Primers page is more related to the article. IDEA Center's FAQs and Primer page is well organized.--] 16:36, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

The Intelligent Design FAQs & Primers page summarizes and organizes information from other ID sites. --] 16:46, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

===Against===
I object to linking against the faq. At one point during your edit war with most other editors of this article, someone removed the link to the faq, and replaced it with a link to the main site. I agree with that editorial decision, and I must question your motives for . The link you provided is POV and non-factual. It is inappropriate for the article to present the faq as though it were a reliable reference. ] 15:58, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

:Are you saying all links under '''ID perspectives''' have to be NPOV? --] 16:39, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

:: ''Any site that misleads the reader by use of factually inaccurate material or unverifiable research. See ] for explanations of the terms "factually inaccurate material" or "unverifiable research".'' --From ] ] 18:13, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

:What is non-factual about the link? --] 16:39, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

:What is no reliable about the article? --] 16:39, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

:: Let me turn that around: what is reliable about it? ] 18:13, 27--] 23:12, 27 June 2007 (UTC) June 2007 (UTC)

*Disagree. I think that if we are going to link this site in, we should only link in the main page. I also find it somewhat disturbing that one of the authors in question seems to want to engage in edit wars, violating civility rules and 3RR rules. We cannot link in every possible site like this, since there are hundreds or more and WP is not a link farm.--] 16:06, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

:Why do you think "we should only link in the main page"? --] 16:40, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't think we should even link to the IDEA main page considering IDEA clubs are for addled undergraduates gather and compare their notes on ID and organize their efforts to disrupt Misplaced Pages, and not sources of notable ID thought and writing. But if we do include a link to the IDEA club main site, it should be to the homepage only; per ] Misplaced Pages articles are not link farms. ] 16:35, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

:Please, read the before calling IDEA Center an undergraduate club. --] 16:39, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

::Yes, and there you'll read "''our primary focus of outreach is to help students found chapters of "IDEA Clubs" at high schools and universities where they can promote intelligent design theory to their fellow students. To date, over 25 chapters have been founded by students and teachers around the United States and the world.''" It was founded by undergraduates, Luskin, Renner and Colanter, as student club, for chrissake. Just because it has now has an umbrella organization to serve IDEA clubs on other campuses does not mean its not still a student club. Give me a break. ] 17:03, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

:::You'll also see on the main page that "The Intelligent Design and Evolution Awareness (IDEA) Center is a 501 (c)(3) non-profit organization dedicated to promoting intelligent design theory and fostering good - spirited discussion and a better understanding over intelligent design theory and the creation - evolution issue among students, educators, churches, and anyone else interested." and you'll find ''What's the difference between an "IDEA Club" and the "IDEA Center?"'' in the FAQ. Also in the FAQ, "The Intelligent Design and Evolution Awareness (IDEA) Center is a 501 (c) (3) non-profit organization, '''formed in 2001'''."--] 17:08, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

:::There is also, ''What exactly does the Center do?'' "The IDEA Center hosts classes, seminars, conferences, and maintains a website to promote intelligent design theory and promote the facts about the creation - evolution issue. The Center's primary purpose is to promote the scientific theory of intelligent design, and foster friendly discussion and dialogue among individuals of varying beliefs and backgrounds. We aim to promote a better understanding of these issues primarily to students but also to internet users, churches, community institutions, and educational institutions." --] 17:16, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

::::I hate to break it to you, but the IDEA club came first, then the Center was formed to support IDEA clubs on other campuses. Go ask Luskin if you're still unclear, or better yet, read some history of the movement other than the IDEA club FAQs. "''Our IDEA Club at UCSD actually pre-dates the existence of the IDEA Center, as the Center was formed by some of the IDEA Club at UCSD co-founders in the summer of 2001''" BTW, stop violating 3RR. ] 17:17, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

:Where do you get "organize their efforts to disrupt Misplaced Pages" from? --] 17:11, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

::You're an IDEA member, right? Well, you've violated 3RR at two articles in the last 24 hrs, so there you go. No? Others from there have. ] 17:25, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

This is not an article about the IDEA Center. This is an article about ID. If anyone wants to view the IDEA Center's FAQ, they can navigate there from their main page themselves. –] 17:21, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

'''Object to the link''' -- IDEACenter appears to be little more than a DI astroturf organisation, rather than a source of ''new'' information on ID. Should we also include Dembski's www.overwhelmingevidence.com? ] 17:30, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

I also object linking to the FAQ, and honestly I have no idea why a link to the main page should be included. The site contain inaccuracies and personal attacks (there's currently an article about "the gospel of evolution according to ]"), I don't see any relevant information on the website. Misplaced Pages is not a link farm, we should not include all the websites of creationists/evolutionists, and, in my opinion we should remove some links in the External Links section, many are not relevant (Italian/Finnish Intelligent Design site ?). - ] 23:12, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

===For main page link===

I'm fine with linking to the main page. I think this 501(c) is more appropriate then some of the others, particularly on the Non-ID perspective (wikis, ACLU, etc). The external links section needs a good cleanup for ] guidelines. The entire media section can go. If they're good links, then they should be used as a reference - otherwise, get rid of them. ] <sup>]</sup> <small><i>17:13, 27 June 2007 (UTC)</i></small>

:Did you check out the FAQs and Primers page? --] 17:17, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

:The IDEA club is just as partisan, in fact moreso, than the ACLU, so be careful what you try to delete. ] 17:19, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

::My thought was not in regard to partisan. My suggestion with the wiki and ACLU were in regard to #1, #12, #13 on "Links normally to be avoided". 1: Any site that does not provide a unique resource beyond what the article would contain if it became a Featured article. 12: Links to open wikis... 13: Sites that are only indirectly related to the article's subject... We might find they are perfectly fine.. I was just suggesting a reveiw as it seems like we have quite a bit of EL. The IDEA site is at least an organization directly about ID, which may provide resources beyond this article. Anyway.. nothing big.. was just thinking out loud. ] <sup>]</sup> <small><i>18:05, 27 June 2007 (UTC)</i></small>

:::Hmmm, that would apply to IDEA certainly, but not the ALCU since thier position is exactly that of the scientific community, a federal court, the science education community, and the National Academy of Sciences. I think you need to think that through and take care. ] 19:02, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

::::Not sure I understand you. But anyway.. I'm not going to change them. I only offered the suggestion that it be cleaned up based on the guidelines. ] <sup>]</sup> <small><i>19:26, 27 June 2007 (UTC)</i></small>

==Put your energy in some place useful==

Why not write an article about the IDEA clubs for Misplaced Pages instead of engaging in stupid edit wars?--] 17:24, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

==Cleaning up the External links section==

Following ], I think we should remove the following links;

First;
* Intelligent Design Network Australia
* Finnish Intelligent Design site
* Italian Intelligent Design site

It would be absurd to provide links tp all departments of evolutionary biology or tp all associations promoting evolution, I don't understand why we do this for IDists.

* Intelligent Design and Evolution Awareness Center

IMO, it violates guideline #1, there's nothing unique to this site. Also, there's many interesting links in the Non-ID subsection (e.g.:The Design Argument by Sober, E.), but there's already close to 200 references in this article, perhaps The Design Argument should be quoted somewhere but I think many links are not very useful.

- ] 03:24, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

:As the person responsible for introducing those foreign links, I have to admit this removal makes sense for several reasons. First, it has started to become clear that these external links are a magnet for creationists and assorted edit wars. Second, WP articles are not really supposed to be "link farms." Third, the external links section has become longer and longer, and still probably is too long. So why did I introduce those foreign sites anyway? Well there actually was a good reason. One of the most shrill charges always leveled at the ] or ] articles in WP is that these articles should be removed or scaled back because these movements exist only in the United States, and that this makes these articles of interest only to Americans. Many foreign editors of Misplaced Pages get completely indignant at the suggestion that there are creationist movements anywhere outside the US. They are completely unaware of any international scope to this problem, or what the views are in Turkey or other Islamic countries, which have (if anything) a more pronounced problem than the US. However, now that I have seen the difficulties these links introduce, there has to be a better way to address this problem, possibly with some other daughter article. Just something to ponder...--10:09, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
::Outside the US, most Creationist movements are very small, and tend to lack political influence or publicity. It is hardly surprising therefore that most foreign editors aren't aware of their existence in their own countries. This lack of visibility also means that these non-US Creationist movements are ''not'' "significant minorities," and so should be afforded little, if any, mention under ]. The only exceptions to this that I can bring immediately to mind would be the UK (where ] has received recent, although probably fleeting, notoriety) and Turkey. ] 10:27, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

I wish I could agree with you, except that in many Islamic countries, it is forbidden to teach evolution even at the college or graduate school level. Turkey is one of the more liberal, and it has just suffered an immense backslide. This has also recently been an issue in Poland and Holland and Russia and several other countries, in addition to the UK (where the movement seems to have had tacit approval from the Government, or at least the cabinet, and recent public opinion polls show strong support for creationism, almost as strong as in the US). Therefore, these movements give every appearance of spreading. Even if these movements might be somewhat small at the moment in most foreign countries, they bear watching. The extent of these movements should be tracked and catalogued. Otherwise, we not only are not describing the situation accurately, but we are leaving ourselves open to attack by foreign editors for even having any articles on these subjects at all. And I believe that the removal or scaling back of these articles would not serve the readership of WP well. --] 10:42, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
:*You are probably right on the Islamic countries (about whose educational policies on evolution, we tend not to hear too much).
:*In the UK, the government was initially in a somewhat ambiguous position initially, as it was promoting private/public-partnership 'Academy Schools,' some of which were backed by evangelical groups, which promote Creationism. It has however recently come out with a policy explicitly rejecting ID in science classes.
:*In Poland, the Deputy Education Minister from the "ultra-right-wing coalition partner in the conservative Polish government" (the ], which received 8% of the parliamentary vote) has made anti-evolutionary statements. It is unclear however whether this is the official policy of either the government or his party.
:*Russia had a recent court case, whose losing Creationist side was championed be elements within the Russian Orthodox Church. I have however seen no signs that Creationism is gaining any momentum there.
:* This article gives a good summary of recent events (including events in Germany and Kenya), though is a bit out of date on events in the UK.
:] 11:24, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

A creationist museum just opened in Canada. There are mounting concerns in Canada about emerging creationist efforts. I have had many conversations with a creationist in Australia who has a very different impression of what the situation is in Australia from what I gather from the media. And the recent public opinion poll results in the UK about creationism speak volumes, I think. The situation might not be near as serious in other countries, but I think that creationism is a threat in many countries, and that we should recognize it as such.--] 11:48, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
: Saw your comments and I wanted to ask why you are concerned about a creationist museum opening. And why you feel creationism is a threat and what you think the governments of Canada, US and Britain should do to eliminate the threat. ] 11:59, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
::See on Culture, Science and Education, Report 8 June 2007 "The dangers of creationism in education" which answers Octoplus's question, and describes attempts to get creationism into various countries in Europe. .. ], ] 12:55, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

:::I am wondering if we need a separate article that really emphasizes the worldwide/international threat or situation and efforts of creationists and intelligent design supporters. I just do not think that there is enough room in any of these articles to emphasize this.--] 13:08, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

== Intelligent Design broader than the Discovery Institute leaders ==

In the opening definition, you quote "...best explained by an intelligent cause ...", but at least even one Discovery Institute writer (Dr. Behe) allows for there to have been intelligent causes (plural). Dr. Behe says that the theory of aliens from other planets bringing life to earth falls within the purviews of the intelligent design movement (Darwin's Black Box). Not only is this plural in the sense of there being more than one alien, but it could have been different aliens from different planets at different times making their contributions, or even aliens from the same place doing so for more than one intelligent reason.

So my first point is that you narrowly pick one definition for intelligent design from one Discovery Institute contributor, and erroneously apply that as the same definition that all the Discovery Institute leaders would give ... and if that much is wrong, it is definitely erroneous to think that every intelligent design leader or adherent would also give that same definition.

My second point is that the Dover School Board could be seen as leaders in the intelligent design movement in the political field - pioneers in defining a bold policy, yet they went ahead and acted in defiance of the advice given to them by the Discovery Institute. When Barbara Forrest (footnote 7) says that absolutely all of the intelligent design leaders are from the Discovery Institute, she is using a specific definition of leader. The Discovery Institute may be the leader insofar as media attention - what with all the press and all their books and popular efforts - but that does not make them the leading scientists in the field of intelligent design, nor the only political leaders, etc. There most be room for the movement to go on and new leaders to pick up where old ones left off. To deny the new leaders the privilege of using the "intelligent design" label just because they are not members of the Discovery Institute would be unfair and overly-restrictive.

My third point branches off from that. There must be room for the Intelligent Deisign movement to expand and grow, even when work on intelligent design is outside of the Discovery Institute. I've written a book entitled Getting Past the Culture Wars: Regarding Intelligent Design. The way this can be accomplished is to drop two of the most disappointing features of the early Discovery Institute movement, namely, the emphasis on the supernatural, and the antagonism towards Darwinian evolution. A modern ID movement which is both naturalistic and evolution-friendly would render most of your Misplaced Pages article moot, but it would still be Intelligent Design theory according to the original concept.

I would love to add my book to your article, but I wouldn't dare. The thing that bugs me, though, is that even if one of my readers tries to add my book to the Misplaced Pages discussion of Intelligent Design, you would try to use Discovery Institute sources to prove that my book's proposals are really not related to ID at all, since I am not a Discovery Institute fellow, and since my name was not brought up in the Dover trial. What kind of logic is that?

We can agree that evidence of intelligent causes does not constitute proof of the supernatural, and most scientists do not like to even infer the supernatural from the intelligent. Secondly, the definition that certain features can best be explained by an intelligent cause or intelligent causes, in no way dismisses certain other features which CAN best be explained by unidirected processes such as natural selection. It is no more anti-evolution to say that Darwinian explanations do not account for every characteristic of life forms on earth, than it would be anti-American to say that Americans did not come up with every technological advance on earth. The definition does not contrast the supernatural with the natural, but rather the intelligent causes with those causes which are non-intelligent. It never denies natural or unintelligent causes.

I attended a Dr. Shermer debate at Penn State Berks. It is very odd that he writes about debating the existence of a deity or intelligent designer, which is what he tried to do from his end, yet all the while Dr. Paul Nelson at the other podium never brought up either concept.

Dr. Nelson (of Discovery Institute) spoke of intelligent causes, not intelligent persons, and was very clear that he chose not to think of the intelligent causes as being supernatural. Dr. Shermer, on the other hand, talked about a God of the gaps, the super-natural, the age of the earth, and evidence for evolution.

Really, these two gentleman had no argument with each other. Dr. Shermer admitted the possibility of intelligent causes, provided we think of them as having a natural origin. Dr. Nelson said nothing to the contrary.

Dr. Nelson had nothing to say against evolution, nothing to say about the age of the earth, and nothing to say in favor of God or the supernatural during his 30-minute presentation of intelligent design. Dr. Shermer's only answer to Dr. Nelson's evidence of intelligent causes was to admit that it was very possible that they could in fact exist.

Dr. Robert F. DeHaan and Dr. Arthur V. Chadwick are two scientists that I quote in my book, and neither is from the Discovery Institute that I know of. They talk about an approach to ID which places ID "squarely in the natural order". So it is not just me who sees ANOTHER approach other than the one with supernatural implications.

This is the direction that I believe ID should go in the future: non-religious, and not antagonistic towards evolution. Your article is helping to stifle those changes and thwart my efforts by trying to put in concrete that ID is both about the supernatural and against evolution, much in the way that Judge Jones concluded at the Dover Trial. The Dover Trial was really against the Dover School Board, not the Discovery Institute. Even if the Discovery Institute could somehow have been justifiably implicated, it is not fair to talk as if the Dover Trial were truly against ID theory in and of itself, and against a movement which is much broader in perspective than what the Discovery Institute leaders may have originally bargained for. I don't think the Discovery Institute would be happy to have ID turned around to be a materialistic theory, since they would much rather see it lead people to God, but, as they say, one must follow the science where it leads.

Maybe it would be better to have one article about the Dover Trial and its conclusions, another about the Discovery Institute, and a third about Intelligent Design theory in general, instead of mixing up the trial and the Discovery Institute under the general heading of intelligent design. And what about separate headings for naturalistic intelligent design where religious and anti-evolution arguments play no part (no part, not as support, and not as criticism , because they would simply be irrelevant), and then a separate heading for creation-theory-related intelligent design where all the traditional debate sides can be presented?

] 03:06, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

:I am somewhat confused by your post. However, Misplaced Pages just reports on what we observe in society and science etc. If your book is successful, then it will be well known and we will naturally discuss it in this article if it is part of the intelligent design movement. If it leads to another movement, then we will make an article on that other movement. Misplaced Pages does not exist to promote your book or agenda, particularly when it has not yet had any impact.--] 03:28, 29 June 2007 (UTC)]

:two replies
:#"an intelligent cause" does not affect the pluarity of any beings involved, what is being counted is the cause, not the intelligence. A group of aliens is still a single causality. "Intelligent causes" would suggest continual interference by various entities, which may be part of fringe theories amongst design theorists (but not really ID).
:#There are three articles on ], ] and ]
:That is all--] 03:39, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

#"Dr. Behe says that the theory of aliens from other planets bringing life to earth falls within the purviews of the intelligent design movement (Darwin's Black Box)." Dover Decision:<blockquote>Although proponents of the IDM occasionally suggest that the designer could be a space alien or a time-traveling cell biologist, no serious alternative to God as the designer has been proposed by members of the IDM, including Defendants’ expert witnesses. (20:102-03 (Behe)). In fact, an explicit concession that the intelligent designer works outside the laws of nature and science and a direct reference to religion is Pandas’ rhetorical statement, “what kind of intelligent agent was it ” and answer: “On its own science cannot answer this question. It must leave it to religion and philosophy.”</blockquote>
#"My second point is that the Dover School Board could be seen as leaders in the intelligent design movement in the political field" -- except that the Dover Board admitted near-ubiquitous ignorance of ID, and merely agreed to it as a potentially-legal stand-in for explicit Creationism.
#"When Barbara Forrest (footnote 7) says that absolutely all of the intelligent design leaders are from the Discovery Institute, she is using a specific definition of leader. The Discovery Institute may be the leader insofar as media attention - what with all the press and all their books and popular efforts - but that does not make them the leading scientists in the field of intelligent design, nor the only political leaders, etc." Name a potential leader that is outside the DI. Outside the DI, the ID movement appears to be nothing but bloggers and self-published cranks.
#"I've written a book entitled Getting Past the Culture Wars: Regarding Intelligent Design." Then you are mammothly self-delusional -- ''ID is nothing more than a weapon of culture-warfare.
#"The way this can be accomplished is to drop two of the most disappointing features of the early Discovery Institute movement, namely, the emphasis on the supernatural, and the antagonism towards Darwinian evolution." But this is the core of ID -- eliminate these and ID has ''nothing'' to say. It is ''nothing'' but a vessel for (recycled) anti-evolutionary arguments and demands for supernaturalism in science. "A modern ID movement which is both naturalistic and evolution-friendly would..." have neither reason for existence nor any contents.
#"The thing that bugs me, though, is that even if one of my readers tries to add my book to the Misplaced Pages discussion of Intelligent Design, you would try to use Discovery Institute sources to prove that my book's proposals are really not related to ID at all, since I am not a Discovery Institute fellow, and since my name was not brought up in the Dover trial. What kind of logic is that?" First you need to prove that there is a viable ID movement independent of the DI & its core anti-evolutionism and supernaturalism. I suspect that this would be highly problematical.
#"We can agree that evidence of intelligent causes does not constitute proof of the supernatural, and most scientists do not like to even infer the supernatural from the intelligent. Secondly, the definition that certain features can best be explained by an intelligent cause or intelligent causes, in no way dismisses certain other features which CAN best be explained by unidirected processes such as natural selection." Yes, the trouble is that such platitudes do not add up to anything resembling a ''positive research programme.'' Until such a programme exists ID, even if shorn of its Creationist sentiments, has ''nothing'' to offer Science.
#"Dr. Nelson (of Discovery Institute) spoke of intelligent causes, not intelligent persons, and was very clear that he chose not to think of the intelligent causes as being supernatural." Nelson is a YEC, and thus explicitly supernaturalist in his "intelligent cause." He is also extremely dishonest, having later blatantly misrepresented Shermer's position.
#"Dr. Robert F. DeHaan and Dr. Arthur V. Chadwick are two scientists that I quote in my book..." Robert F. DeHaan is a crank who promotes his explicitly anti-Theory of Evolution, and explicitly religiously-motivated, ] hypothesis, in spite of the fact that he appears to have no training in genetics or developmental biology. Arthur V. Chadwick is an advocate of ]. So here we have it: anti-evolution and the Genesis Flood.
#"Maybe it would be better to have one article about the Dover Trial and its conclusions, another about the Discovery Institute, and a third about Intelligent Design theory in general, instead of mixing up the trial and the Discovery Institute under the general heading of intelligent design." These articles already exist, although (naturally enough) they are heavily inter-related.
#"And what about separate headings for naturalistic intelligent design..." - first prove that it exists: "no serious alternative to God as the designer has been proposed by members of the IDM."
] 04:17, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

:I have now looked at reviews of ]'s book and material in the blogosphere about his book. It just sounds sort of crazy to me. I have no problem with someone pursuing intelligent design hypotheses, however I am not sure that it would be easy for them to get funded. However, at this point, there is no science or evidence for intelligent design. Period. Once there is, then there is something to talk about. Until then, I do not see why we should promote this book, because it does not appear to me that it has made much of an impact yet. I could imagine devoting more energy to this approach if it gained some traction. There is no reason to teach this material when there is no science or evidence to support it.--] 04:57, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
:We've long had sources far more notable than Shrom's personal original research on this issue, so I suggest we close this discussion before it becomes an even longer-winded and fruitless back-and-forth. ] 05:36, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, per Monk, the main concern here has to be the specter of original research. Once these theories come to represent a virtually undisputed bastion of creationist thinking, then we can incorporate them into Misplaced Pages articles. Until then, we should be wary of fringe ideas charming their way into the database.] 21:46, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

::Definitely. If Strom's approach starts to snowball and produce a legion of followers and start to influence creationist thinking and approaches, then we are justified in documenting it. However, if it is just one of dozens and dozens of people who are leveraging the publicity surrounding the term "intelligent design" to try to hijack the concept and movement for their own personal gain, then it would be silly for us to document them all. For one thing, it would be very tedious. We have enough trouble keeping up with the real creationist movements. Also, this would tend to confuse any reader who is trying to actually learn about "intelligent design" itself, which is the subject of this article. It also is definitely inappropriate for us to champion one particular commercial venture over another, such as a self-published vanity book.--] 21:58, 29 June 2007 (UTC)


:RE: "A modern ID movement which is both naturalistic and evolution-friendly would render most of your Misplaced Pages article moot, but it would still be Intelligent Design theory according to the original concept."
:Yes it would. But it doesn't exist. I'm not going to deny that a design argument could be scientifically constructed, but noone seems really interested in doing that. It would however need a different name, as branding ahs seen the term "Intelligent design" hijacked by the Discovery Institute (a conservative Christian think-tank) which severely limits its scope. Applicable here is ] and ]. We can't predict a future version of ID, and no sources can verify the existence of any other organised version of ID than DI's.--] 02:12, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

On plurality of causes, Dr. Behe lists several non-intelligent causes for biological diverstity already accepted by mainstream science: common descent, natural selection, migration, population size, founder effects, genetic drift, linkage, meiotic drive, transposition, and much more. (Darwin's Black Box, Simon & Schuster, 1998, pp. 228-230.) Intelligent Design likewise allows for multiple forms of intelligent causes to all be found as factors in the development of life. There could be intracellular intelligence, intercellular intelligence, intelligent DNA, intelligent proteins, quantum intelligence, divine intelligence, natural intelligence as a universal principle, AND the intervention of alien intelligence from other planets.

Intelligent design has not nailed down where the intelligence lies, and does not try to with current research. For now, it only sees evidence of intelligence from the same deductions used to conclude that similar systems in the engineering fields have intelligent causes. The systems are similar in their being both specified and rare, or in evidences like closed-loops in biology, or in containing strings of information.

Recently we have discovered evidences of reasoning in birds where their behaviors were previously thought to have been only by instinct. We have also found ways to test for intelligence in other species, and believe we have found intelligence in monkeys, dolphins, etc. If intelligent design is pursued, ways will be devised to test for intelligence in sub-organism biology.

Another example I use is that there are different ways to account for flight: insect wings are different from feather wings are different from airplane wings are different from helicopter rotors are different from lighter-than-air lift. Up til now, we only understand intelligence on the neural level, like on the level of the brain organ. There is a whole new field of science waiting to be opened up about investigating other forms of intellgence in nature which could be behind the evolution of the species.

] 23:53, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

:What about spaghetti? ... ], ] 00:11, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

:Lamarck was right all along! Woohoo! ] 00:18, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

::Well it is hard to argue with that kind of reasoning...--] 00:20, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

== Getting Past the Culture Wars: Regarding Intelligent Design ==

Sounds like an interesting book. I read your comments about this wiki article and I agree with almost all of your points. There seems to be a lack of objectivity and lack of adherence to scientific principles here. Too much emphasis is on the politics and not enough on the science. Until the persons with political agendas who are controlling this article either get enlightened to true scientific principles or until wiki policies allow more science this article will be not a true representation of the subject matter. I will try to find your book. ] 10:46, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
]]--] 11:59, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Don't feed the unscientific: those who make unfounded claims. ] 12:38, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

:I am sure we have met before. You just are someone who has returned as a different sockpuppet, I bet.--] 12:49, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

::DFTT. BTW, there is no science to ID. ] 16:26, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

::: And what is your criteria for an endeavor to be considered science? ] 17:02, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

I did some background-checking on Glenn Shrom. He currently teaches Spanish at The King's Academy a hard-core Christian school, and has undergraduate degrees in Spanish and Music from Messiah College. He appears to have no background in Science or Philosophy of Science, and to be just another self-appointed Creationist crank, and a particularly minor one at that, as he does not even appear to have had articles published by the normal wingnut crank outlets (Worldnetdaily, The Conservative Voice, etc), and seems to spend his time trying to defend his viewpoint on other people's blogs. ] 15:32, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

:While I appreciate the efforts of people like Shrom to try to cool down the rhetoric and rancor, the bottom line is that no one yet has demonstrated that there is any science at all in intelligent design. When backed into a corner, creationists often resort to trying to point to ] as a potential source of allies or as proof that they have broader support than they might otherwise appear to. However, ] really is as different from hardcore creationist beliefs as night is from day. This is just grasping at straws to try to rescue an intellectually bankrupt enterprise, and I am afraid Shrom's efforts are in a similar vein.--] 16:37, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

== Defining Intelligent Design, Finally! ==

Dear Monk, et al:

In an article titled "Show Me the Science," Daniel C. Dennett wrote, "no intelligent design hypothesis has even been ventured as a rival explanation of any biological phenomenon" (The New York Times, August 28, 2005). The proponents of intelligent design (ID) have nevertheless asserted that ID is a verified hypothesis (i.e., a scientific theory).

I tried to find ID stated in the form of a hypothesis – the assertion that phenomenon A caused phenomenon B. I could not find ID stated as a hypothesis so I crafted an intelligent design hypothesis that suits me. My IDH includes natural selection. The IDists at the Discovery Institute will probably not like my IDH but they have no standing to complain because, after years of ballyhooing about ID, they have never bothered to actually present ID in the form of a hypothesis that could become a scientific theory.

The Discovery Institutionists have claimed that ID is the “best” explanation for this and that, and they have claimed that life is so complex that life “must have been” designed and created by an intelligent designer. They have stated these opinions over and over but they have never actually asserted that an intelligent designer designed and created the universe. I decided to bring their obfuscationistic tactics to a screeching halt.

My definition of ID reads as follows: “Intelligent design is the assertion that many billions of years ago an intelligent designer designed and created the universe, including the Earth and a form of life that has evolved, by natural selection, into the many different forms of life that exist today.” See http://intelligent-design-hypothesis.com

The IDists will be annoyed, perhaps infuriated, to see “natural selection” included in an intelligent design hypothesis. But they cannot complain without stating an alternative IDH, and they will not state an alternative IDH because if they do it will become obvious that all they are doing is running a propaganda campaign for creationism.

The IDists are now stuck between a rock and a hard place. I do not feel sorry for them. I am proud that I have put an end to their silly propagandizing.

] 00:20, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

:: I do not think IDers say that natural selection did not happen. All ID is saying is that some aspects of life did not come without an intelligent intervention. IDers accept evolution, natural selection, common descent. The theory is very subtle and sometimes people do not understand it. ] 00:29, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

::::So subtle as to be meaningless (and not a theory anyway). And of course this "theory" is not referring to any god (and most certainly not the Abrahamic version) *wink, *wink, but, in Dembski's words to a "time travelling biologist" from Earth (nevermind the idiotic paradox), or to an alien species (which concept just moves the question of life's origins back a step). Bah. ] 19:55, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

:::Octoplus: Your reference to “The theory” is not appropriate. An intelligent design hypothesis has never been verified so there cannot be an intelligent design theory.

:::When the Discovery Institutists assert that ID is a scientific theory they are lying. They know full well that no intelligent design hypothesis has ever been verified. Please do not let them trick you into making references to a theory that does NOT exist! ] 02:17, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

:: A problem with your defintion is that it could have been more than one designer and the designer could have acted at many different times intervals. And I do not think ID says that a designer created the universe. It could be as simple as an alien planted bacteria on earth billions of years ago or aliens come every 500 million years to tweak the DNA. ] 00:37, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

:::Perhaps it was a committee of designers. Or a group of competing designers in contest with one another, which might explain a lot about the way the world is. But this has little to do with the WP article. This article has mainly to do with a group of people asserting that a set of teleological arguments is a "scientific theory" so as to teach high school biology students that there's an alternative theory to evolution that is more consistent with what they were taught in Sunday school. Unfortunately, according to the many relevant ], it's not scientific; it's speculative philosophy and/or theology. ... ] 01:38, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

::::Now this I understand - there was a consensus to go with carbon based lifeforms on Earth with iron based blood. Trouble was someone vandalised the Earth with copper based "blood" lifeform on the grounds that the blue blood went well with the sea colours. They went against consensus; which was clearly decided as "red" blood. A minor view of Hemerythrin blood was allowed as it is a reddish colour (though less efficient as a oxygen carrier) but "blue" blood was clearly against consensus. They were then banished to hell and the other designers retired to heaven and from that all the myths of the world came forth. I think that if ID was able to come up with a clear explanation and evidence about why there are so many different oxygen carrying mechanisms of which the most efficient, iron (hemoglobin) has resolutely been selected over the others e.g. hemerythrin , copper, vanadium, chlorocruorin, hemoglobin/chlorocruorin mixture,..... We know that hemoglobin is the most efficient as a reversal oxygen carrier mechanism and the others are less efficient so what were the designers thinking of; they are "god" or "gods" - they know *everything* - how could they be so incompetent to design hemerythrin when hemoglobin is so much better ? (You be pleased to note that god got a 24 epoch block for 3RR but then on the RfC swung the consensus on the grounds that if everything was hemoglobin then it would be *obvious* a designer was at work). ] 08:04, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

:::Octoplus: You have asserted that there is a “problem” with my intelligent design hypothesis. Please note that my IDH makes reference to “an intelligent designer,” not to one or more intelligent designers. You can formulate and publish an alternative IDH that makes reference to “one or more intelligent designers” if you want to do so but please do not try to tell me that my IDH has a “problem.” My IDH is perfect just the way it is. ] 02:31, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

:Scott, while I may agree with your statement, it doesn't accurately reflect what ID actually is - if anything, it represents the ] position. ID explicitly makes no claims about the age of the Earth, to keep it consistent with Young-Earth creationism - from the ID viewpoint, the Earth could be 6000 years old. Best of luck with popularizing your views, but they don't, as yet, belong in this article. ] 10:36, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

== Introduction ==

The part which says "and seek a fundamental redefinition of science, no longer limited to natural explanations, but accepting supernatural explanations as well" is misleading. Creationists claim that definition of science is fundamentally restricted to natural explanations, but is it really so? No. This is only held by people adhering to naturalism, which are only a small fraction of the scientific community (albeit the part that most loudly fights Intelligent Design, and a part that often claims to speak for the whole of science, while, in fact, they don't—professional science searches for new knowledge, it isn't a skeptics organization existing to debunk pseudoscience). Naturalism is only one philosophy of science, and all other philosophies do not make a distinction between natural and supernatural phenomena. For example, methodological approaches will say that it is not science's statements that are scientific, but it's the method of investigation that is. The whole article has been trickily written so that naturalists and creationists can agree to it. But did you ever take into account that this is not what neutrality is about and that there are more views on science than a naturalistic and a creationistic one? You should not describe things as uncontroversial just because naturalists and creationists both agree to it... --] 03:23, 1 July 2007 (UTC)


:Please compile and display an extensive and comprehensive list of all the philosophies of science that exist besides naturalism, with references.--] 03:57, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
::Ar you kidding? The absolute minority of philosophies of science is naturalistic. Take empiricism, rationalism, instrumentalism, constructivism and conventionalism just to name five that are not. No majority position exists within the philosophy of science; there are many positions. It would take at least a whole book to do such a list including all variants with references. --] 04:49, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
:::rtc: please provide '''substantiation''' that any of these philosophies are non-naturalistic. ] 05:50, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
::::Please provide '''substantiation''' that green is not blue. --] 06:07, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
:::::Completely irrelevant (as is most of your trolling), but easily substantiatable. Colour is a property of light. Green light has a spectrum dominated by energy with a wavelength of roughly 520–570 nm, blue light has a spectrum dominated by energy in the wavelength range of about 440–490 nm. Now substantiate ''your'' assertion. ] 06:39, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
::::::Thanks, now I understand what you mean by "substantiation". Empiricism holds that science seeks for explanations that can be verified by observation. Rationalism holds that science seeks for explanations that can be deduced from reason. Insturmentalism holds that science seeks for explanations that make useful predictions. Constructivism holds that science constructs its explanations and is influenced by the cultural and historical background. Conventionalism holds that science seeks for explanations that are agreed upon. Naturalism holds that science seeks for natural explanations. --] 06:51, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
:::::::Do any of these philosophies provide compelling arguments that naturalism is either wrong or irrelevant. Does Empiricism hold that valid observations need not be naturalistic ones? Does Rationalism hold that supernatural axioms lead to the deduction of valid explanations, does Instrumentalism hold that "useful predictions" can be gained from supernatural explanations, does Constructivism hold that supernatural "cultural and historical background" do not yield inferior explanations, does Conventionalism hold that the (currently) agreed upon explanations aren't naturalistic ones? ] 07:14, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
::::::::These philosophies do not need to provide compelling arguments (I am not saying that they in fact don't), they merely need to be different. About your questions: They are contingent about naturalism in some areas, and dispute it where they contradict it. Constructivism does not hold that "cultural and historical background" yield inferior explanations, it holds that ''all explanations are necessarily based on cultural and historical backgrounds''. Constructivism has traditionally been opposed to naturalism quite harshly, for it holds that humans are grounded in culture, and that culture is not a natural, but a human product; that humans "constructed" it (hence "constructivism"). So it holds some kind of a anti-naturalistic culturalism, that is, from a naturalistic point of view, it says that culture is supernatural, and that naturalism tends to plays it down or reduce to purely naturalistic elements. Many people in the social sciences, where culture plays an important role, are quite opposed to naturalism, independent from whether they have a religion or not. Empiricism, on the other hand, for example, certainly wouldn't agree that science is fundamentally naturalistic either, but claim that it is fundamentally empiricistic. PS: I just saw that what I wrote about constructivism and its opposition against naturalism is described quite well at ]. How about reading it? --] 07:33, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
:::::::::"...the constructivist view of the philosophy of science is not widely accepted among scientists and has been criticized by realists in both the scientific and philosophical communities."] -- the existence of this viewpoint thus gives little support for the assertion that "only a small fraction of the scientific community" adheres to naturalism. ] 08:07, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
::::::::::Fair enough. Yet, you refer to a list that seems to admit that Constructivism is held ''at least by a few'' people. Naturalism, on the other hand, doesn't even appear there, ''not even once, as a mere word''. In contrast, it says that "Science in general is neither 'natural' in its approach nor moral in its purpose." So, has the fundamental basis of science been missed in Misplaced Pages's current version of the article on the philosophy of science? --] 08:13, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
:::::::::::That no formal school of Philosophy of Science is called "Naturalism" may equally signify that a number of schools adhere to a viewpoint that is naturalistic, so that "naturalism" is an insufficiently distinguishing characteristic to qualify as the name of a school. It is certainly hard to see Empiricism being ''antagonistic'' to naturalism, even if they consider Empiricism to be "fundamental" (and naturalism to merely be a consequence of it). You have only demonstrated that a "not widely accepted" school is antagonistic to naturalism. Can you demonstrate this for more widely-accepted schools of Philosophy of Science? ] 08:26, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
::::::::::::No formal school of philosophy of science is called Naturalism? Vollmer and many others would certainly disagree! Please note that I was not claiming that no naturalistic idea is present within many schools of the philosophy of science and not that all other schools are opposed to naturalism as harshly as constructivism is. I was claiming that naturalism is not uncontroversial as the fundamental basis of science, as the creationist claim cited in the article implies. That would mean that the schools all start from naturalism and develop their variant. In fact, it is the opposite: Naturalism holds that the methods of the natural sciences (these methods are usually understood as empiricist, physicalistic, biologistic in this context) have a special rank, and that each valid explanation must be reducible to knowledge that has been attained by these methods (reductionism). This is actually what they mean by "naturalistic explanation". So even from a naturalistic point of view, one must admit that it is these methods of natural sciences that are the fundamental basis of science, not the additional claim that they have a special rank. And if we can actually talk of something that is widely accepted in science, then it is these methods, not the position of naturalism, which makes use of them. If atheism can be compared to a belief in god, then naturalism can be compared to catholicism. So the claim that naturalism is the fundamental basis of science is about the same as claiming that it's catholicism. (or that creationism is the fundamental basis of christianity, for that matter.) --] 08:54, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
:rtc: Some professional scientists are supernaturalists. However, as professional scientists, they do not search for supernatural causes that produce natural effects, and they do not search for natural causes that produce supernatural effects, and they do not search for supernatural causes that produce supernatural effects. Professional scientists, whether they are naturalists or supernaturalists, search for natural causes that produce natural effects. I therefore believe that the introduction accurately asserts that scientists search for “natural explanations.” People who search for supernatural causes and supernatural effects are not professional scientists; they are, at best, pseudo-scientists and, most likely, they are demagogues who want to use religious doctrines to manipulate people into giving money to the demagogue. And, of course, the demagogue usually gets to decide what portion of the money will go into his or her own pocket, and how much money will go to achieving the advertised religious objective. ] 04:03, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

:rtc: Please provide substantiation for your assertion that "people adhering to naturalism" is "only a small fraction of the scientific community." Surveys have long shown that a majority of scientists are agnostic or atheist. Combine this with theist scientists who practice Methodological Naturalism and you have an overwhelming majority. Can you point to even one ''successful'' application of 'supernatural scientific research'? ] 04:15, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
:::Some verifiable evidence for the assertion made just above, please? Also, even if it is verifiable, for a hypothetical example, that naturalism is a product of, or has a strong correlation with, secular humanism and other alleged "evils" of modern life, this would be fairly irrelevant to issues of WP policies such as ], ], ], etc., I would think. ... ] 04:37, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
::::Kenosis, if this is addressed to me, then I would direct you to ], which provides statistics on atheism/religious disbelief & agnosticism/religious doubt among scientists. I will admit that I don't have any documentary evidence as to the prevalence of Methodological Naturalism among theist scientists, but I would suspect it to be high. ] 05:41, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
:::::Please accept the simple fact that just because you are an atheist or similar doesn't mean you are a naturalist or a methodological one or something like that. --] 06:12, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
::::::'''No.''' I will instead accept "the simple fact" that you are a troll. ] 06:40, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

::You think completely in a wrong, stereotypical framework. Just because someone rejects naturalism doesn't mean he puts an emphasis on supernatural beliefs, just as you don't automatically wear blue jeans just because you refuse to wear black ones. Many people who are agnostic or atheist are not naturalists, and many people who believe in god do so without seeing an emphasis of science to supernatural beliefs. Statements like "People who search for supernatural causes and supernatural effects are not professional scientists" are quite wrong. First of all, a professional scientist is a scientist who is paid for his work, nothing more. Second, just because you search for supernatural causes and effects doesn't make you a bad scientist. For example, naturalism, if taken literally, is very much in danger of seeing gravity as supernatural cause. Does that make Physicists pseudoscientists? I don't think so. I have not seen even one creationist who has not been one, though. It can very reasonably be held that it is not the supernatural elements that make ID unscientific, but something else, and it should hence not be suggested that "the" definition of science (which doesn't exist) is currently fundamentally a naturalistic one. --] 04:31, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

:::rtc: "Science is knowledge that has been obtained and tested through use of the scientific method." "Scientific method means the principles and procedures used in the systematic pursuit of intersubjectively accessible knowledge and involving as necessary conditions the recognition and formulation of a problem, the collection of data through observation and if possible experiment, the formulation of hypotheses, and the testing and confirmation of the hypotheses formulated." Webster's Third New International Dictionary.

:::The phrase "the systematic pursuit of intersubjectively accessible knowledge" rules out searching for supernatural causes. ] 05:18, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

::::No; it rules out unsystematic pursuit and pursuit of knowledge that is not intersubjectively accessible. Please don't simply invent alleged conclusions that are simply not there. --] 05:37, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
:::::rtc: It is widely considered that the supernatural is not intersubjectively accessible. If you wish to assert otherwise, then please '''substantiate''' this assertion. ] 05:47, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
::::::It's talking about knowledge that is intersubjectively accessible. That means the knowledge is written down in a book and published; everyone can get it, if he wishes to. It's not in someone's head alone, or in the heads of a secretive group of people. Besides that, are you bound to your own standards? "It is widely considered that" seems neither like a very substantiating nor a very substantiated claim. --] 06:17, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
:::*"...just as you don't automatically wear blue jeans just because you refuse to wear black ones." This is a '''blatantly false analogy'''! Blue and black jeans aren't an exhaustive set of options, naturalism and supernaturalism are.
:::*"Many people who are agnostic or atheist are not naturalists..." This is a blatantly false claim. Atheism is the denial that the supernatural exists. Please provide an example of atheist supernaturalism.
:::*"Second, just because you search for supernatural causes and effects doesn't make you a bad scientist." Provide even ''one'' example where a "search for supernatural causes and effects" has resulted in good science.
:::*"For example, naturalism, if taken literally, is very much in danger of seeing gravity as supernatural cause." So if I drop a 20-tonne anvil on your head, you would die from 'supernatural causes'? Your argument is ludicrous.
:::*"It can very reasonably be held that it is not the supernatural elements that make ID unscientific, but something else..." The supernatural elements are very closely related to why ID is ''untestable'' and ''unfalsifiable'', meaning that it is not unreasonable to claim that it is these supernatural elements that render it unscientific.
:::rtc: you have done nothing but spout a bunch of '''fallacious arguments and unsubstantiated assertions.''' You have still not provided ''any'' substantiation for your original assertion that "people adhering to naturalism" is "only a small fraction of the scientific community." ] 05:41, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
::::*Naturalism and supernaturalism are just as inexhaustive as blue and black jeans. That is hence a perfectly correct analogy. There is more than naturalism and supernaturalism. A lot more. I already mentioned rationalism and empiricism, but that's really only a raindrop in a barrel of water.
::::*Atheism (at least the main variant) is the denial that god exists. It is not the denial that the supernatural exists. Naturalism is the denial that the supernatural exists. What do you mean by "supernatural" in the first place? How can I distinguish something that is natural from something that is supernatural? Do you simply accept as natural simply as you see fit, or do you have objective criteria for demarcation?
::::*There are and have been many good scientists who believe into a god and do their work as a search for understanding him. That doesn't yet make them creationists, though.
::::*If I drop a 20-tonne anvil on my head, I have died from a natural cause, since the anvil crushed me. What caused the anvil to move into my direction however, according to a literal interpretation of naturalism, was gravity, and hence a supernatural cause.
::::*unfalsifiable or "untestable", as you also misleadingly call it, doesn't mean unscientific.
::::It's unsubstantiated and completely nuts that science has or ever had a naturalistic fundament. Of course I have not brought any "substantiation" for my assertion, because there is none. Just as there is none for the opposite. But I brought arguments against the opposite; arguments that you are not handling with the necessary rigor. --] 05:59, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
:::::'''Further bunch of unsubstantiated assertions + complete unwillingness to substantiate anything = TROLL''' ] 06:46, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

If Rtc is unable to respond to the questions posed above, or produce some information that makes a tiny bit of sense, I will begin to wonder if we have not found something else under the bridge.--] 05:07, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
:Why do you ignore my response above? --] 05:37, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
::Because it contained '''absolutely no substantiation''' -- just a further bunch of unsubstantiated assertions. ] 05:43, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
:::Your claim that my assertions are unsubstantiated is unsubstantiated, and the current version in the article is unsubstantiated as well; it takes the creationist's claim and describes parts of it (that science currently is fundamentally naturalistic) as if it were uncontroversial. However, no substantiation has been given about that! So you may make unsubstantiated claims and defend an unsubstantiated part of the article, but you demand from me that I substantiate anything I say? Don't you think that this is a little bit unjust? --] 06:07, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

'''rtc is quite clearly trolling, and has admitted that he has no substantiation for, or interest in substantiating, his original assertions. I would therefore suggest that he takes his irrelevant intellectual masturbations elsewhere.''' ] 06:16, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
:Why should I? What I criticize about the article is not substantiated there either. If you demand substantiation, you should start by substantiating the part of the article criticzed by me, namely, the implied claim that currently science is a naturalistic enterprise. --] 06:20, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
::Substantiation "that currently science is a naturalistic enterprise":{{quotation|Science, I came to realize, doesn't rule out the possible existence of a supernatural world. It isn't logically committed to metaphysical naturalism. But it is committed to methodological naturalism, the view that, in our attempts to understand how the world works, we should look for naturalistic explanations rather than taking easy recourse to supernatural ones. The successes of science in bridging the gaps that used to be plugged by the gods creates a strong presumption in favour of the idea that gods not only aren't needed but don't exist. It doesn't prove, but it does probabilify to a high degree, the truth of metaphysical naturalism. And by the same token, it makes all supernatural beliefs highly improbable.}}
::Raymond D. Bradley, Emeritus Professor of Philosophy, SFU
::Now it's your turn to substantiate your original assertion that "people adhering to naturalism" is "only a small fraction of the scientific community." ] 06:32, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
:::So you have found one naturalist who agrees to this. What a miracle. You will in fact find many persons agreeing with it who oppose ID. But that is not a substantiation of the claim that science is a naturalistic enterprise. I agreed from the very beginning with the claim that science, within the discussion around intelligent design, is held by proponents and opponents alike to be a naturalistic enterprise. But certainly not that science ''actually is'' a naturalistic enterprise. So although I certainly appreciate your effort, I am sorry that this is not an argument against what I said, which is "You should not describe things as uncontroversial just because naturalists and creationists both agree to it" I brought conventionalism, rationalism, empiricism, constructivism and instrumentalism as examples of popular positions within the philosophy of science that are distinct from naturalism and that don't embrace it. So please don't make it sound like everyone, or even a substantial majority, would agree to the claim that science is fundamentally naturalistic. --] 06:46, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
::::No rtc, you have brought '''nothing'''. You have provided '''no substantiation''' that "conventionalism, rationalism, empiricism, constructivism and instrumentalism" are non-naturalistic and '''no substantiation''' of scholarly disagreement that "science ''actually is'' a naturalistic enterprise." In other words you have provided nothing. '''Put up or shut up!''' ] 06:56, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
::::Sure; since you are not interested in discussing the issue seriously, but only trolling, I am not interested in discussing it with you anymore, either. Perhaps someone more rational can join? --] 07:08, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Any gratuitous assertion can be, by the laws of logic, gratuitously refuted. This is like trying to argue how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. The scientific enterprise would grind to a halt if one allowed the introduction of miracles, supernatural causes, magic, gods, etc to explain the evidence in the natural world. I know of no serious, respected scientist who would deny this. In my years in science, I have not met any such person. The juducial world seems to agree with this position. I have not seen any surveys of attitudes, but I would find it difficult to believe that the attitudes about supernatural causes and influence in the universe are at variance with the attitudes about atheism, agnosticism, biblical literalism, etc. among scientists. Where is the evidence that would lead me to believe that scientists, although not able to use such reasoning in their professional work and publications, and not overwhelmingly believing in biblical literalism or its counterpart in Islam, Hinduism, or some other religion, actually reject naturalism? Only philosophers of science play such ludicrous games by nit picking scientific reasoning to death. Real scientists do not have time for such nonsense. If any of this can be demonstrated with examples instead of hypothetical assertions and philosopher's word play, then I am sure we would all be interested in seeing it. If not, then this is just talk page pollution.--] 13:34, 1 July 2007 (UTC)


:I agree completely that real scientists do not have time for nonsense of philosophical word play. But that includes methodological naturalism as well, which is only about assigning the label "supernatural" to everything that is somehow inconvenient&mdash;in a quite subjective manner. Would "he scientific enterprise grind to a halt if one allowed the introduction of miracles, supernatural causes, magic, gods, etc to explain the evidence in the natural world"? For not to introduce miracles, magic, gods etc, a scientist doesn't need methodological naturalism. He only need to use his head. Methodological naturalism is just one more thing like gods and miracles that ''magically'' brushes awkward things under the carpet. I think that "and seek a fundamental redefinition of science, no longer limited to natural explanations, but accepting supernatural explanations as well" should hence be replaced by "They also claim that science restricts itself to only natural explanations and hence needs to be redefined fundamentally towards accepting supernatural explanations as well". I mean it doesn't really imply that it is not so. It only restricts the claim to those who actually make it. --] 14:07, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

::: RTC, I have seen that you have gotten the typical welcome that anyone with some original thought gets here: told to shut up and called a troll. Hang in there. I like what you are saying. I really do not see how these people can get away with such awful behaviour. But this is a place where bullies can run free. I have to go now but wanted to let you know that you are not a troll. ] 14:41, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

::::Hmmm, Rtc has an long history here of baseless objections, so I'm not surprised he's failed to gain traction here yet once again. And since neither you nor Rtc presented anything like credible, non-partisan sources to back up your claims and objections, which I (having read widely on the topic) can tell you already do not exist, things are unlikely to change in the manner you hope for. Any further long-winded objections, discussions or rants that ignore existing sources or misrepresent them will constitute a pattern disruption that will likely result in far more then being called a troll. So I suggest reading all the sources provided and accepting the fact that the article reflects the sum of these sources and moving along to another article; this article is not a place for promoting ID rhetoric. ] 15:32, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

:::::What is ID rhetoric about "They also claim that science restricts itself to only natural explanations and hence needs to be redefined fundamentally towards accepting supernatural explanations as well"? Just because someone disagrees with naturalism doesn't yet make him a ID proponent, or someone believes in god after all. You seem to have a tendency to peg someone quite quickly. Where is the source that backs up the claim that science funamentally restricts itself to natural explanations? Why can't it be restricted to be something the cited Creationists claim? It's naturalist and creationist POV alike make it appear as if it were uncontroversial. --] 15:51, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

:::::::You realise your post makes no sense (except maybe to your fellow under-the-bridge-dweller, Octolplus). Do you have a purpose for being here other than disruption? ] 20:07, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

::::::::How about a real argument? --] 01:09, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

:::::::. ] 20:56, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

<undent>So somehow science does not have methodological naturalism at its base? Wow I am astounded. This has escaped the notice of the US Supreme Court and the US National Academy of Sciences and the American Academy of Sciences and countless others. But the brilliant anonymous internet troll RTC discovered this, and no one else knows! Amazing. So let's try to convince the police and detectives and courts to drop methodological naturalism in crime investigations and convictions. The jails are full of people arrested for something a demon or a fairy or an ogre did. Their fingerprints and DNA magically appeared on the instruments of the crime. I wonder how far one could get with a defense based on the rejection of methodological naturalism? "Your honor, the magical imp stabbed my wife, and by a miracle the camera across the street shows me doing it, but I wasnt really there." How far do you think that would go? In fact rtc, you are under a magical spell and you do not own all the things you have- your car, your house, your possessions, your bank account. It all belongs to me. So hand it over or I will sue you. Seems more than fair, doesnt it? After all, you reject methodological naturalism!....Next time you get sick, or have a car accident, do not go to the hospital. Just pray. Let's fire all our doctors. Lets close all our medical schools. Let's not chlorinate our water or vaccinate ourselves. Let's not take antibiotics. Let's not use statics to design our bridges and buildings. It is all just methodological naturalism, after all. If methodological naturalism is good enough for police, or detectives, or doctors, or civil engineers, then surely it is good enough for scientists. --] 23:35, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
:See, I am not interested in wasting my time with such troll answers. If you are not interested in improving the article and perhaps correct your views, which are nearly as erroneous as the creationist ones, then I certainly won't force this improvement onto you. I wanted to discuss , not what happens to ''your'' mistaken view on the world (not mine) if you drop methodological naturalism. The change is not about claiming that methodological naturalism isn't actually the base of science; it's just about not implying it anymore, since only within the creationism debate someone ever held such a nonsense. --] 01:09, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

== Terrible prose ==

'''Note: My concerns in this section have nothing to do with the facts conveyed in this article; nothing to do with NPOV; nothing to do with sources or reliability or any of the usual things people argue about. I'm dealing solely with the prose style; nothing else.'''

There's a lot of really, thoroughly crappy prose in this article. There is excessive footnoting. There are long, wandering sentences. There's repetition. There's disorganization.

There are whole sections rendered practically unreadable -- and uneditable -- by excessive footnoting. Footnotes are applied not merely to paragraphs or even sentences, but to individual ''noun phrases''. The introduction is three paragraphs long, and has ''thirty-five'' footnotes. In the third sentence, a single factual claim -- the association of intelligent-design advocates with the Discovery Institute -- receives ''seven'' footnotes alone.

The introduction includes details that are ''true and correct'', but that are greatly excessive for an introduction, such as the names of three scientific associations that regard intelligent design as nonscientific, and a summary of the judge's opinion in ''Kitzmiller v. Dover''. This kind of detail belongs in the article (and indeed is duplicated in the article) but does not belong in the introduction.

The article (excluding references) is 22 screens long on my browser. Eight screens, or more than a third of the article, form the section entitled "Overview". This is no overview; it is much of the meat of the article. It includes a history of intelligent design from Plato to ''Pandas''. The history, however, jumps back and forth in time like something out of ]. ''Pandas'' is introduced at least twice, if not more. There is another section entitled "Controversy" -- never a good sign, since controversy is (as expected) all over the article. That section is mostly about the question of whether intelligent design is science.

The sentences ramble. ] would have conniptions. Many sentences have ]s, usually formed by splicing of a parenthetical and a conjunction: "The frogs are green, which is a pretty color, and very loud." What's loud -- the shade of green, or the frogs themselves?

Some examples:

# ''The term "intelligent design" came into published use after the Supreme Court of the United States ruled in 1987 in the case of Edwards v. Aguillard that requiring teaching of "creation science" alongside evolution was a violation of the Establishment Clause of the U.S. Constitution which prohibits state aid to religion.''
#* <font color=red>The sentence rambles from the topic at hand (intelligent design) to another (Edwards v. Aguillard) to a third (one view of the meaning of the Establishment Clause).</font>
# ''The debate over whether intelligent design produces new research, as any scientific field must, and has legitimately attempted to publish this research, is extremely heated.''
#* <font color=red>The subject ("the debate") and predicate ("is extremely heated") are separated by a vasty gulf, with a certain ] way about it.</font>
# ''Dembski states that when something exhibits specified complexity (i.e., is both complex and specified, simultaneously), one can infer that it was produced by an intelligent cause (i.e., that it was designed) rather than being the result of natural processes.''
#* <font color=red>Too many "(i.e.)". Shouldn't try to define "specified complexity" in parentheses; either define it in a sentence, or leave that up to the article on ].</font>
# ''Intelligent design proponents also raise occasional arguments outside biology, most notably an argument based on the concept of the fine-tuning of universal constants that make matter and life possible, and allegedly are not attributable to chance.''
#* <font color=red>Dangling modifier. "Intelligent design proponents ... allegedly are not attributable to chance."</font>
# ''The intelligent design movement arose out of an organized neocreationist campaign directed by the Discovery Institute to promote a religious agenda calling for broad social, academic and political changes employing intelligent design arguments in the public sphere, primarily in the United States.''
#* <font color=red>Dangling modifier. ''What'' is primarily in the United States -- the public sphere, the arguments, the changes, the agenda, the campaign, or the arising of the movement? (Arguably all of them -- but the construction still stinks.)</font>

So, what can be done about this?

'''Reorganize the sections.''' Ditch the "Overview" and "Controversy" sections. Juggle paragraphs to get sections something like the following:

# ''Concepts.'' The ideas of intelligent design as they are understood by its advocates: an "alternative" to evolution, irreducible complexity, specified complexity, etc.
# ''Scientists' response.'' Present the rejection of intelligent design by the biological sciences community, the criticism of the concepts and arguments presented above, and so on.
# ''Intelligent design and creation science.'' Present the relationship between "creation science" as "intelligent design". This is where ''Of Pandas and People'' goes, as well as the bits where the Discovery Institute are talking to their "base" about destroying atheistic scientific materialism.
# ''Politics.'' Present the position of intelligent design in the world, including the U.S. and ''Kitzmiller v. Dover'' but not dwelling on U.S. constitutional politics overmuch.

'''Rewrite the introduction.'''

This can only be done ''after'' the article is reorganized, because the introduction needs to outline what the article says. The introduction should be short, punchy, and serve as an abstract of the article rather than a bullet list of details.

'''Clean up the prose style.'''

This can be done relatively independently of the larger-scale changes. Sentences like the ones I highlighted above need to be <s>dragged out into the street and shot</s> cleaned up. Each sentence should express a thought; each paragraph should express an idea. And all dangling modifiers should be chopped off.

Thoughts? --] 08:32, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
:''Punchy''? What about ]? –] 09:08, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

::I don't see the connection. We can express a neutral point of view while using short, expressive sentences instead of rambling ones. --] 18:20, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

:I agree with you entirely on the issue of style. Attempts to enforce the "one sentence - one idea" rule in this article have not proved easy in the past, but I'm sure that we can at least try to improve it. I'm not so sure that your proposed reorganization is the way to go; a structure that gives ID proponents a "free hit" in any section, where their ideas are presented without refutation, is going to be controversial. ] 10:56, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
:: That worries me. Given that this article is about an idea, it seems appropriate to make it as clear as possible what that idea is. Interspersing that description with refutations seems a little like ]. It is not a matter of giving them a "free hit"; it is a matter of presenting ''the subject of the article'' in a way that is clear.

:: Consider, for contrast, our articles on ] and ]. These articles both have sections which describe those ideas neutrally; the articles then go on to show how modern science disagrees with those points of view. It is not necessary to say in every paragraph or section that geocentrism is wrong. --] 18:20, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
:::Probably because neither caloric theory nor geocentrism have a bunch of PR hacks, theologians and bloggers attempting to manufacture a controversy over them and to present them in the most positive possible light. If it acts like a vampire, we're not being paranoid by putting a stake through its heart at every opportunity. ;) ] 18:41, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

:::: Putting stakes through vampires' hearts may be a heroic thing to do, but it is not Misplaced Pages's job. We're not here to take sides against pseudoscience, lies, propaganda, or tyranny. We're here to ''document'' them, and let the reader draw the natural conclusions. --] 19:49, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
:::::See ] and ] – we're not here to present pseudoscience uncritically then add a separate section saying "someone disagrees". ... ], ] 20:38, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

:::::: Oh, I fully agree. I'm no friend to the intelligent design advocates. (As an atheist with a strong interest in the advancement of the biological sciences I have no interest in seeing them prosper at the expense of good science.)

:::::: But the heckling tone, where every proposition is countered immediately with a rebuttal, is bad style for an article on ''any'' subject. This isn't a matter of science versus pseudoscience, but one of prose style. The heckling tone actually makes the scientific position seem ''weaker'' than it actually is, by giving the impression that it has to interrupt the exposition of intelligent design for fear that ID will sound too convincing. --] 21:44, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

:I think the ''Concepts'' section may be problematical. The "ideas of intelligent design" do not offer an "alternative to evolution," but rather arguments ''against'' evolution. Irreducible complexity and specified complexity are arguments of "why we think evolution can't work" rather than why ''something else'' can work.
:Further issues are that ID isn't only related to Creation Science, but also to ] (so that section would require retitling), and that to call constitutional issues ''Politics'' is, IMO, a misrepresentation. ] 12:57, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
::"Legal issues," then. My point wasn't to dictate precisely what the sections should be. Rather, it was that the sections should deal clearly with aspects of the topic, rather than being loose, floppy, and generic. --] 18:20, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
::: Please familiarize yourself with the history of the talk page and the article. Thank you. ... ] 18:24, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

:::: Nothing in either one can justify the terrible prose and disorganization of this article. --] 18:35, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
:::::The article is justified by ], ], and ]. ... ] 18:41, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
::::::Please go back to the top of this section (under the heading "Terrible prose") and read the part in bold face. --] 18:51, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
:::::::What I get out of all of this is that you fear sentences with multiple and subordinate clauses. Short simple sentences are nice if you're aiming for a fifth grade reading level, but they do very little for comprehension. While you may think that simplification is the key to understanding the opposite is actually true; it merely obfuscates the true meaning by producing easily digestible visual-bites that are bereft of meaning. ] 20:14, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

:::::::: That's a remarkably ] thing to say. Please don't waste your time trying to insult me. I've certainly never heard anyone call Strunk and White "fifth grade reading level" before, or express concern that cleaning up dangling modifiers would harm comprehension or understanding. --] 21:47, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
<undent> And of course the tricky bit is improving the prose, a worthy objective, without losing the careful and painfully achieved balance. This is a field rife with cunning misrepresentation, and loaded terms or descriptions have to be carefully balanced. .. ], ] 21:57, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
:::::::::I could not disagree more. What is agressive here is coming into an article and a talk page and saying, in essence, "all'y'all, the prose sucks, the style is inept, 'n I'm agonna do som'tin 'bout it" or "pardon me, mates, but the prose is horrid, and the syntax not up to standards", etc. There are reasons for the way the statements in the article are syntaxed, reasons for the choice of words, and reasons for the organization of the article. Those reasons have to do with a massive amount of discussion by many participants which the man on the white horse here is plainly unfamiliar. The recent edits by the man on the white horse also betray a virtually complete lack of understanding of the subject. Then to respond to responses with sarcasm, allegations of personal attacks, etc.? Gimmeabreak. At least read up on the material here that is a result of the hard work and research of numerous other participannts before deciding how everything should be worded and organized in this article. .... ] 22:27, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
:::::::I'm not trying to insult you, I'm pointing out what I see. It's hardly aggressive, it's merely a statement of fact: the primary push behind short sentences (and active voice) is simply a matter of the lack of reading comprehension on the part of the average person when complex sentences and passive voice are used. But, let's think about it logically: if one needs to write for the LCD, what are the odds the LCD is even going to understand the concept you are trying to explain? Yes, that sounds elitist, but given that the average American can only read at the 6th grade level, and thus has obvious limitations insofar as understanding complex topics, it is quite accurate.
:::::::What dangling modifiers?
:::::::And while Strunk and White is useful, it is hardly the be all and end all of composition. ] 21:57, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

:::::::: I disagree with you on "the primary push behind short sentences". The issue is not merely one of the reading ability of the average reader. Rather,a rambling sentence is less effective at conveying meaning to any reader -- even a skilled reader -- than a clear sentence. Indeed, I think characterizing my suggestions as merely "short sentences" is dishonest and, yes, insulting. I'm opposed to ''unclear'' sentences: sentences with no particular topic; sentences that undermine themselves; sentences that suspend dependent clause from dependent clause until the overall structure is ambiguous.

:::::::: As for dangling modifiers, please go back and read the section entitled "Terrible prose," particularly the bit in red where I point out a few of them and other bits of unclear phrasing. The last example should make the problem clear. What is the phrase "primarily in the United States" modifying? --] 22:10, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Interesting idea Fubar. But how about reorganizing the sections in a more fact based way? Something like the following:

# ''Overview'': Summary of the below, but short (two screens max).
# ''Historical and legal background'': How ID was evolved by creationists to promote creationism in public high schools; Plato to Pandas. Legal battles and political intrigue. Will need several sub-sections.
# ''Aims and strategy'': Wedge document, statements of leaders at rallies for the followers. Political support.
# ''Scientific basis'': This will be very short since they haven't gotten around to doing any research yet. Could probably be covered in the overview.
# ''Implications'': Freedom of religion issues; loss of secular, constitutional democracy; scientific literacy

And then, as you say, a new punchy introduction that reflects the content of the article. ] 22:30, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

===References===
Given the number of references in the intro, would anyone object to merging some of the <nowiki><ref></nowiki> tags into bulletted lists? ] 12:41, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

:If a massive rewrite is being advocated, and a consensus agrees, I think this should be done carefully, possibly in a sandbox first. After all, this article has already reached FA status. Part of the reason for the excessive number of references and some of the other peculiarities of the article are those are the battle scars of past intense conflict, and the only way to placate hordes of critics. I think that using a different format for references might help, as a start.--] 13:42, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

::I agree about the need for caution. I've made some preliminary moves towards a more attractive reference format (just by consistently REFERENCE/TEXT-ing the intro). I have also made a few copyedits a la Strunk & White, although there is more to do. (I hope these are relatively uncontroversial.) ] 14:18, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

I object, it's a bad idea for a number of reasons and has been discussed and rejected here recently in a now archived discussion. ] 15:34, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

:::Any changes to an FA article should be carefully considered and should be backed by a very strong consensus that the changes are necessary improvements. Having said that though, I do think that some of the multiple refs are excessive. I understand how they got there and why they were originally included; such is the nature of disputes in controversial articles. However, in other articles that I've worked on, editors were able to agree that 3 refs per sentence was a reasonable maximum. Is it possible we might agree to something similar in this case? Not only does this improve the article's readability with respect to the refs, it highlights subtopics within the article that might benefit from a rewrite; ie, any sentence which seriously requires more than 3 refs could probably be re-written for better clarity and more careful focus. This is just my suggestion, but it has been useful in other articles and it seems to be useful as a general guideline. Any thoughts? ] <font color ="green">]</font > 15:51, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

::::No more than three references per sentence sounds like a good limit to start with. Of course, most sentences do not need any; paragraph-level references should usually be adequate. I do not think that making references into bulleted lists is a good idea; it is likely to take up a lot of space in the article and make it even harder to read. --] 18:06, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

:::::Please familiarize yourself with the history of the talk page and the article. Thank you. ... ] 18:22, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

:::::: Don't repeat yourself. --] 18:35, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
:::::::It is plain that you are unfamiliar with how this article has arrived at its present form. Please familiarize yourself with the history of the talk page and the article. Thank you. ... ] 18:42, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

:::::::: Oh, I'm all too familiar with how previously-good articles acquire crappy prose style through successive small edits. --] 18:53, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

:::::::::It is now even more clear that you are unfamiliar with the massive amount of often-contentious discussion. Successive small edits have been rejected. The present article, imperfect though it may be, reflects consensus. If you are unfamiliar with how it arrived at its present state, and unfamiliar with the details of the topic, I would suggest gaining a more in-depth level of familiarity with the topic before unilaterally deciding what is approprate for the article. I personally would look forward to reading recommendations for possible improvements based upon a more thorough awareness of the topic and of how the article arrived at its present form. ... ] 19:03, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

I tried to section off the "References" bit from the foregoing more general discussion. I couldn't make heads or tails of the above discussion, which seems to be talking about Fubar Obfusco's original massive edit suggestion. He does seem to be right about the preponderance of footnotes interfering with the readability. I recently put references into bulletted lists, which I felt dramatically improved the readability of the lead. This was then reverted on the false grounds that I had removed references. Any thoughts on which version is preferable? ] 00:47, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
::Yes, I now see that the blank spaces in the combined references were not removals. Please see the recent discussion as to why participating editors made the admittedly difficult choice to keep references separate. ... ] 01:34, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
::: Ah, I see your point above. Still I think this merits some discussion. Although having references separate may make things easier for editors, it doesn't help readers much. ] 01:38, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
:Please ] and update the article. There is no requirement to get anyone's permission before making such elementary changes to the article. --] 01:10, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
::The requirement is ]. By contrast, ] is a friendly invitation to new and/or abashed users to participate, not an invitation to demand that one's bold edits be automatically accepted by other participants in any article, let alone in a complex topic with a long and controversial history, and with some 4 megabytes of talk among numerous participants. ... ] 01:26, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

:::Oddly that point isn't getting through. Maybe if we write in <font size = 5>bigger letters</font size>. ] 21:03, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

== Identifying the Claimant ==

The first sentence of the Misplaced Pages page about intelligent design describes intelligent design as a “claim.” That is an appropriate description of ID. I believe that the person who is publishing this claim should be identified. I therefore suggest that the first paragraph of the Misplaced Pages page about ID be revised to read as follows:

Intelligent design is the claim that "certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection." This claim is being published by Discovery Institute, a corporation organized under the laws of the State of Washington. Bruce Chapman is the founder and current president of Discovery Institute.

It is a modern form of the traditional teleological argument for the existence of God…

I am proposing these revisions because I strongly believe that the “claim” should be attributed to the claimant. Mr. Chapman should not be allowed to hide behind a legal fiction (a corporation). He is the founder and current president of Discovery Institute and he must take personal responsibility for the claim that he is publishing. ] 15:55, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

:I have discovered that there is a Misplaced Pages page about Bruce Chapman. ] 16:44, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

::I wonder if this material is better put in a footnote or some other means of making it less unwieldy.--] 17:13, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

:::Yes, a clickable footnote link would be appropriate. I have also discovered that the Washington Secretary of State has a web site and an information page about Discovery Institute. That page might also be referenced in a footnote. ] 17:30, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

It is not necessary to identify the State of Washington or the Discovery Institute's corporate status. Those facts belong in the article on the ].

It is not clear that Mr. Chapman is the chief advocate of intelligent design, or the sole person "claiming" it. Other persons such as Michael Behe, William Dembski, and several former members of the Kansas Board of Education are also well-known proponents of the claim.

It is certainly atypical to connect an individual to an idea because that person ''publishes'' the idea. For instance, the ] frequently adopts ] views in editorials on foreign policy, but it would be unnecessary -- and arguably abusive -- to feature ] in the article on neoconservatism.

And in any event, this level of detail does not belong in the introduction! --] 18:32, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

:Fubar Obfusco: You wrote, “It is not clear that Mr. Chapman is the chief advocate of intelligent design, or the sole person ‘claiming’ it.” Yes, it is not clear. That is exactly why Mr. Chapman’s claim should be attributed to him. If you review the voluminous literature about ID you will not find ANYONE who admits that the claim is their own! To date, no one has taken responsibility for the claim. I find that situation bizarre in the extreme, especially in the light of the numerous legal battles that have played out in court. You would think that the attorneys who represented people who complained about ID would have nailed down exactly who is responsible for the claim but this is not the case. The witnesses who testify about ID cite the claim and never identify the claimant!

:Misplaced Pages has a duty to identify the claimant; not allow him to hide behind the skirt of a corporation that he created and is in control of to this day. Misplaced Pages should, Mr. Obfusco, cut through the neoconservative obfuscationism. ] 19:30, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

:: If, as you say, "it is not clear", and "you will not find ANYONE who admits that the claim is their own", then surely attributing it to Mr. Chapman would be ] on your part, yes? --] 19:45, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
:::The DI is not just Chapman, and the claim was originally published, and continues to be published, by the ]. Which became associated with the DI in 1996........ ], ] 20:32, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
::::Dave: I could not find that claim on the FTE web site. ] 22:43, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
<unindent>I think it's reasonable to identify the DI as the origin of the quote, but the reference should do that already. I don't think we need to try and attribute it to a specific individual. ] 23:14, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

:It's not just the DI though, but IDEA, IDNet, and every other leading ID group using the exact same def verbatim, so pinning the tail on the DI donkey is neither necessary, accurate nor useful here. ] 14:54, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

== Reference format ==

In an effort to gain consensus, here are two possible revisions for the reference format:
:# http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Intelligent_design&oldid=141904528
:# http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Intelligent_design&oldid=141909230
Please note that the references contain precisely the same information, and occur in the same place in the text. '''Nothing''' has been removed from the article. The only difference is that adjacent references (without a "name=" field) have been aggregated into a bulletted list. In my opinion, this significantly improved the readability of the lead. Any preferences on one or the other? ] 01:12, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

: Unfortunately, this article is subject to a large amount of POV-pushing. The current arrangement of the footnotes was agreed upon as part of a compromise to help make clear that all the claims were sourced to many reliable sources. ] 02:23, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

:: Keeping the footnotes, but reducing their impact on the article text, makes the article more readable without compromising the sourcing of the claims. --] 03:32, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

:::I agree with JoshuaZ. This is not helpful to this article, and it will only open it up to POV-pushing down the road. Precisely why would anyone waste more than 2 nanoseconds discussing this issue. If it keeps the POV pushing away, why are even discussing it? ] 05:27, 2 July 2007 (UTC)


::::It is being argued that the article should be massively rewritten. There might be some language problems in some places, and other formats might be better. However, now that the article has reached FA status, it is a bit much to suggest that it be completely turned upside down. I think this should be approached very carefully and debated. I think that big changes should be tried first in a sandbox environment and carefully vetted. This article has been forged through the efforts of too many people and too many battles to just start over again from scratch.--] 05:35, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Orangemarlin, have you read the introduction recently? Multiple mid-sentence footnotes are incredibly distracting to the reader. --] 05:36, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

:No I can't read. Apparently, I'm an idiot. ] 15:41, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Filll, what I'm hearing here is that because this article has featured article status, that it should be considered effectively frozen -- that it shouldn't be changed without a bureaucratic hell that nobody who has a job or any hobbies other than Misplaced Pages would be willing to go through. I don't consider that a useful or productive answer to the problems with this article.

I don't see why there's so much obstructionism here. There's basically nothing wrong with the ''facts'' of this article; they're just poorly organized, and many of the sentences are unclear and badly phrased. Most of the problems are relatively easy to fix, but some folks would apparently rather play bureaucrat and revert-warrior.

As it stands, I don't consider this article to be worthy of its feature bit. It easily meets most of the ]: it is comprehensive, factual, neutral, and stable (to a fault!) However, it fails to meet four of the criteria: 1a (well-written prose), 2a (concise intro), 2b (sensible headings), and 4 (appropriate length and focus).

These things ''can'' be fixed. But only if the obstructionism will go away. --] 05:53, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

:I'm sorry to everyone for the grief that my edit caused. I really truly believed that it was in the interest of improving the readability of the article. I did not consider it to be a major rewrite in any way. Please accept my apology. ] 08:06, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

:: You have nothing to apologize for. Continuing to improve articles is what Misplaced Pages is all about. --] 08:38, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

:::"Improve", yes...but assuming that wholesale rewriting and restructuring necessarily = improvement is not a valid assumption. As has been pointed out earlier, read through the archives to understand why the aricle is written the way it is.
:::Much consensus has gone into the writing of this article, and any rewriting will require consensus. Bring your suggested improvements here, rather than editing the article proper.
:::As for your comments re the FA status of this article, you are entitled to your opinion. ] 10:56, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

::::Brow beating us really will not serve much useful purpose. If you look at the history of the talk page and the article page, you will see that it has been a gargantuan effort to produce the article. Is the prose a bit strange in places? Undoubtedly. Can it be improved? Definitely. Are there reasons for many of these peculiarities? Probably. However, if you just sail in here without understanding the endless battles that have been fought over this article, and declare it all to have been a waste, you will irritate people. The problem is that this article, perhaps more than many others, is the target of a dedicated cadre of professionals whose employment and committment in life is to overthrow science and promote a certain agenda, and produce propaganda. This group, and a fairly large group of associates and others who have answered their siren-call to attack, is often well-educated, and almost fanatically dedicated to these ends. They have multiple phds in the sciences, in the philosophy of science, and degrees in law and other disciplines. They are aggressive. They view the internet as part of their battleground and have the skills to take the battle to the internet, and even here. If you think that this article on Misplaced Pages is immune, you are sorely mistaken. I would be willing to bet money that some of the principles of the DI and related organizations view this article as a challenge. I am sure this article irritates many young Christian and Muslim youth at Christian and Muslim schools and churches and mosques. Do a google search on intelligent design. See the position this article occupies in the output from a google search. Does anyone think that this would not irritate someone like ], who has gone out of his way to produce parody internet videos and cartoons featuring his "enemies" like ] and ] farting and spouting nonsense? Given the cloak of anonymity that the internet provides, it is fairly obvious that a WP article like this would be an incredible troll magnet. See how aggressively and often editors want to change the article to make it more "fair" to the ] or to remove information that was established in the Dover trial. I agree that other formats for the information and references should be considered, but bear in mind that the present wordings and formats have been forged through hard brutal battles, with many blocked and banned as a consequence. It has been necessary to immunize the article to at least slow the rate of outside attacks and compromise with the aggressive forces that want to change it. Once you understand this, then we can discuss it. But to imagine that one can just demand or unilaterally impose wholesale widespread changes on here without consensus is to be incredibly naive. Just look at the history. Just ask us what we think, and why it is as it presently is. Please.--] 11:56, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

:I don't support the changes to the references for all the reasons given a dozen times previously now found the archives. Again, it's a Bad Idea. ] 14:56, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

::It was easy to miss this the first time around: http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Intelligent_design/Archive41#References. In the future, rather than glibly saying "Please check the archives", it may be helpful at least to say "Please check archive number <ARCHIVE NUMBER>." This may reduce such misunderstandings in the future. Regards, ] 15:14, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
::::This issue was recently encountered several times in separate talk sections, including http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Intelligent_design/Archive41#References_in_the_lead and http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Intelligent_design/Archive41#Over-referencing . ... ] 15:46, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
:::Is this now a closed issue? ]<sup>]</sup> 15:20, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
:::: I really hope so. ] 15:22, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
:::::Good, I hope so as well. Adding comment: rather than complain to FM that he didn't do the research for you, when it was you who proposed changes, is a bit... less than helpful. Further, archive 41 is not the only place this has been discussed - take a look at this currently unarchived page, section #Suggestion That Will Almost Certainly Be Shot Down, for yet another discussion of the footnotes. ]<sup>]</sup> 15:24, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
:::::: (''Comment:'' My "complaint" wasn't directed exclusively at FM. Plenty of editors have said "check the archives." An easy way to end debate is to be more specific about where in the archives one should look.) I really did not think that the change was a major one, and in fact would not have objected had it been reverted. I found it quite upsetting the manner in which this was done, though. I feel as though good faith was not assumed. My edit was misrepresented multiple times and by several different editors as some kind of major content change. I offered an apology and it was not even acknowledged. I made a mistake here, but I don't think it was an error of judgement serious enough to warrant the way I have apparently been censured here. Great allowances should be made on Misplaced Pages, under the ] policy, for well-intentioned editors making such mistakes. ] 15:43, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
:::::::I think an apology is appropriate to Silly Rabbit for confusion involving the combination of Fubar Obfusco and Silly Rabbit's advocacy positions here. Apparently Silly Rabbit's position was limited primarily to consolidating the references, while Fubar Obfusco appeared to have a much more sweeping intent. See, for instance, http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Kenosis#Reference_format_at_intelligent_design, where the two positions immediately get mixed, in a way similar to how they got somewhat intertwined on this talk page. ... ] 16:15, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

== Nobody can read this article, huh? ==

Earlier, I posted regarding the ] in the following passage:

:''The intelligent design movement arose out of an organized neocreationist campaign directed by the Discovery Institute to promote a religious agenda calling for broad social, academic and political changes employing intelligent design arguments in the public sphere, primarily in the United States.''

I challenged those who believe the prose in this article is clear, to tell me what noun phrase the prepositional phrase "primarily in the United States" is modifying. Does it modify "public sphere"? Or perhaps "social, academic, and political changes"? Or "religious agenda"? Or "neocreationist campaign"? Or "arose"?

Is the modifier saying that:

* the intelligent design movement arose in the United States (and not elsewhere),
* or that it is a neocreationist campaign located primarily in the United States,
* or that it promotes a religious agenda primarily in the United States,
* or that the religious agenda calls for changes primarily in the United States,
* or that it employs intelligent design arguments primarily in the United States (and possibly employs some other arguments somewhere else?)

For that matter, there's another internal dangling modifier as well -- "employing intelligent design arguments in the public sphere". By its meaning, this is meant to be attached to "campaign" or possibly "agenda". However, grammatically, it is attached to "political changes".

The prose in this article is frequently grammatically unclear. This isn't a matter of "reading level", as has been snidely suggested above. It's a matter of ''bad writing,'' and obstructionist editors who won't let it be fixed. --] 16:39, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

:Last I checked, nobody was arguing against cleaning up the prose style. However your suggested changes went well beyond that, into far larger and more controversial issues. I would suggest that the cited sentence be reworded as "The intelligent design movement arose out of an organized neocreationist campaign, conducted primarily in the United States and directed by the Discovery Institute, to promote a religious agenda calling for broad social, academic and political changes employing intelligent design arguments in the public sphere." It may also be preferable to split it up into two sentences. Such rewording for clarity, as long as it does not significantly change the meaning of the statements, tend to be non-controversial. ] 16:51, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
:I would rewrite this particular sentence, based on my understanding of it, as follows:
::The intelligent design movement arose out of an organized neocreationist campaign, directed by the Discovery Institute and primarily conducted in the United States, to promote, by employing intelligent design arguments in the public sphere, a religious agenda calling for broad social, academic and political changes.
:I hope that this is at least unambiguous. We could further simplify it along the lines of:
::The intelligent design movement arose out of an organized neocreationist campaign to promote, by employing intelligent design arguments in the public sphere, a religious agenda calling for broad social, academic and political changes. This campaign was directed by the Discovery Institute and primarily conducted in the United States .
:This introduces additional material, admittedly. ] 18:09, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
::I would be happy with Tevildo's second version, though would suggest that the addition be reworded to "" -- as I don't know of it being so-named in more than one document, and I think the name is no longer currently used within the DI. ] 18:31, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

:::I'd lose the brackets. ] 21:06, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

::The cite that's in that sentence does not support use of the term "neocreationist". Could we find one that does or use "creationist" or "progressive creationism of the 1980s". This Forrest cite supports the last one: ]. May, 2007. page 2 bottom. With some rearranging of words this would then look like:

::The intelligent design movement is a direct outgrowth of the "progressive" creationism of the 1980s. This campaign, called the "Wedge Strategy" in internal Discovery Institute documents, is primarily conducted in the United States. By employing intelligent design arguments in the public sphere it promotes a religious agenda calling for broad social, academic and political changes.

::] 05:20, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

<unindent> For info: ""I have built an intellectual movement in the universities and churches that we call The Wedge, which is devoted to scholarship and writing that furthers this program of questioning the materialistic basis of science. One very famous book that's come out of The Wedge is biochemist Michael Behe's book, Darwin's Black Box, which has had an enormous impact on the scientific world... the Darwinian theory isn't true. It's falsified by all of the evidence and the logic is terrible... where might you get the truth? When I preach from the Bible, as I often do at churches and on Sundays, I don't start with Genesis. I start with John 1:1. In the beginning was the word. In the beginning was intelligence, purpose, and wisdom. The Bible had that right. And the materialist scientists are deluding themselves". – pretty sure there are other references to "that's when the wedge got together" etc. , if you want to start hunting there are some cited sources at the ]. .... ], ] 23:34, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

:The <s>above suggestion</s> passage as most recently modified by ] still simplifies the development of the campaign in a misleading way, so here's a redrafting –
:{{quote|The intelligent design movement is a direct outgrowth of the "progressive" creationism of the 1980s. A group calling themselves ''The Wedge'' took up the campaign initiated by the ] to teach ] in schools under the name of '']'', and as part of the ] developed what they called the "]" as a campaign primarily conducted in the United States. By employing intelligent design arguments in the public sphere it promotes a religious agenda calling for broad social, academic and political changes.}}
:If more cites are needed, see the ]. ... ], ] 09:36, 4 July 2007 (UTC) tweaked 09:40, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
I see that my change didn't survive - at least we now have two sentences rather than one. :) There's one substantive query I'd have over one part of this section:
:"Nearly all intelligent design concepts and the associated movement are the products of the Discovery Institute"
I don't think "concepts" is the right word, especially as we're forbidden from capitalizing "Intelligent Design". The concept (singular) is the teleological argument, which is a product of Plato, Aquinas, Paley, et al. I would suggest "arguments", or "modern intelligent design concepts", or perhaps "concepts of the intelligent design movement". I'd also like to lose the '''s'' in the last paragraph (converting "obfuscating" from a gerund to a participle); alternatively, we could have "the Discovery Institute's obfuscation of its agenda"; and the in the Forrest quote. ] 00:22, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
:: I agree that "concept" is an imperfect description for such 'things' as Irreducible Complexity and Specified Complexity. These 'things' could, with varying degrees of accuracy be described as 'assertions,' 'arguments' or 'ideas,' in addition to 'concepts.' None of these descriptions is either perfect, or even unambiguously better than the others. ] 08:22, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
:::"Concept" is probably as good a word as any for the things in isolation, it's just that I don't think it's the right word to use in this particular sentence. There's a difference between an intelligent design concept and an Intelligent Design concept, in the same way that there are differences between democratic principles and Democratic principles. However, we can't use capitals to make that distinction here. My preference would be for "the concepts of the intelligent design movement", but this involves a substantive change to the content; we could have "the concepts of the intelligent design movement, and the movement itself", if we think it's _really_ necessary to spell out the DI's involvement _again_ at this stage in the article. ] 21:56, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
It's my understanding that the "wedge" was just a document that formalized the movement's strategy and helped with fund raising. What is the source that identifies the group of people that thought they were the wedge? ] 04:38, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

:See ''.How the Evolution Debate Can Be Won'' above, and , 1999. .. ], ] 06:29, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
Also note ] cites Johnson's 1997 book ''Defeating Darwinism by Opening Minds'' "we should affirm the reality of God by challenging the domination of materialism and naturalism in the world of the mind. With the assistance of many friends I have developed a strategy for doing this... We call our strategy the "wedge." pg. 91-92. An earlier section states ''Drafted in 1998 by Discovery Institute staff, the Wedge Document first appeared publicly after it was posted to the World Wide Web on February 5, 1999 by Tim Rhodes''. The Wedge, ''Breaking the Modernist Monopoly on Science'' By Phillip E. Johnson which appeared in July/August 1999 has a section headed ''The Wedge Strategy'' which describes "the battle against the Darwinian mechanism scientific materialists". ''The Wedge of Truth: Splitting the Foundations of Naturalism'' by Phillip E. Johnson was published in July 2000. , An Interview with Phillip E. Johnson in November 2000, gives answers to ''How did others become involved in the "wedge" strategy?''. In October 2002 the Discovery Institute's William Dembski said "the wedge metaphor has outlived its usefulness", and in February 2006 the Discovery Institute published which states that the original document was only a fundraising proposal, and criticizes its opponents for what it believes are baseless accusations. .. ], ] 08:46, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

''How the Evolution Debate Can Be Won'' talks about the wedge as a movement. ''Breaking the Modernist Monopoly on Science'' talks about "key Wedge figures" that were at a seminar. It's too much of a stretch to say this supports stating "A group calling themselves ''The Wedge''...". There's no verification for that usage so we can't use it. So here's the paragraph with that part removed:

{{quote|The intelligent design movement is a direct outgrowth of the "progressive" creationism of the 1980s. This movement was initiated by the ] to teach ] in schools under the name of '']'', and as part of the ] developed what they called the "]" as a campaign primarily conducted in the United States. By employing intelligent design arguments in the public sphere it promotes a religious agenda calling for broad social, academic and political changes.}}

] 04:53, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

== Moved ==
Moved off topic ranting to ] ] 12:59, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

:I support this userfying to minimize Rtc's disruption, and for not only his rants, but for any repeat objections to article content or objections that misrepresent or ignore sources. ] 14:32, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

: Thank you. ] 16:24, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

:Good call. ] 17:11, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

:I knew this was eventually going to come. Too much nonsense in too short a time. And completely distracting.--] 17:17, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

:Outstanding. But the MO is reminding me of one or two sockpuppets. ] 19:34, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

:Thank heavens. Much obliged, Ornis. Enough was enough. ... ] 02:07, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

== Empiricism ==

:I clarified empirical science as empiricism (it was already linked to that) twice. Kenosis reverted it, claiming "Removing obsolete terminology that is counter to the consensus term of contemporary reliable sources used as source material for this article". Empiricism is not "obsolete terminology" for empirical science; it's one view on empirical science. The majority reliable verifiable consensus contemporary source that is provided for the first sentence under discussion is (the second doesn't have a source), and it talks explicitly about empiricism, not about empirical science (the two words only occur once in a quotation). Please verify that the reliable peer reviewed consensus source and correct the article accordingly. --] 18:48, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Frankly, I feel empirical science is more accurate. I checked with a few dictionaries as well. From American Heritage dictionary, empiricism is:
''1. The view that experience, especially of the senses, is the only source of knowledge.''
''2a. Employment of empirical methods, as in science.''
''2b. An empirical conclusion.''
''3. The practice of medicine that disregards scientific theory and relies solely on practical experience.''

Of the 4 definitions, only 2a. is useful in this context. From the Britannica Concise Encyclopedia, empiricism is:

''Either of two closely related philosophical doctrines, one pertaining to concepts and the other to knowledge. The first doctrine is that most, if not all, concepts are ultimately derived from experience; the second is that most, if not all, knowledge derives from experience, in the sense that appeals to experience are necessarily involved in its justification. Neither doctrine implies the other. Several empiricists have allowed that some knowledge is a priori, or independent of experience, but have denied that any concepts are. On the other hand, few if any empiricists have denied the existence of a priori knowledge while maintaining the existence of a priori concepts. John Locke, George Berkeley, and David Hume are classical representatives of empiricism. See also Francis Bacon.'' Again, this is not as accurate as empirical science, frankly.

From the Columbia Encyclopedia, empiricism is:
''empiricism (ĕmpĭr'ĭsĭzəm) , philosophical doctrine that all knowledge is derived from experience. For most empiricists, experience includes inner experience—reflection upon the mind and its operations—as well as sense perception. This position is opposed to rationalism in that it denies the existence of innate ideas. According to the empiricist, all ideas are derived from experience; therefore, knowledge of the physical world can be nothing more than a generalization from particular instances and can never reach more than a high degree of probability. Most empiricists recognize the existence of at least some a priori truths, e.g., those of mathematics and logic. John Stuart Mill was the first to treat even these as generalizations from experience. Empiricism has been the dominant but not the only tradition in British philosophy. Among its other leading advocates were John Locke, George Berkeley, and David Hume. See also logical positivism.'' Again, this is not as accurate as empirical science. So all things considered, empiricism is either too broad, or not quite the same meaning as the one we would like. So just leave this one alone please.--] 19:44, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
:But the peer reviewed source is explicitly talking about the empiricist view on empirical science, not empirical science in general. Don't you think that the source is severely misrepresented if empirical science is used instead of empiricism? --] 19:56, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
::<p>Oh please. This is an extremely old debate that ran from ] through the British ]. This phase, starting with ] and enduring quite a mentalistic sideshow by ], reached its culmination in the extremely skeptical conclusions of ], which included such mind-twisters as the ], highly influential among the intelligentsia of the late 18th and early 19th centuries. ], in response to Hume, defined in his ] (also translated as "Critique of Speculative Reason") the concept of ] which would ultimately become a basic requirement of scientific method, specifically that science limits itself to what is ''empirically observable'' (observable by one or more of the five physical senses, aided perhaps by instrumentation, but observable nonetheless). Other criteria for scientific method would of course follow, leading up to today. But the debate that used the term "empiricism" to describe scientific method is increasingly outmoded, having given way to the term "empirical" as shorthand for limiting investigation to what is observable.
::<p>What Barbara Forrest does in the article noted by Rtc () is merely review the dabate in philosophy and bring it into focus in the context of the modern term "methodological naturalism", because the intelligent design proponents have resurrected the question of phenomena vis-a-vis ] and natural vis-a-vis supernatural. She says: "In response to the charge that methodological naturalism in science logically requires the a priori adoption of a naturalistic metaphysics, I examine the question whether methodological naturalism entails philosophical (ontological or metaphysical) naturalism." In the course of this examination, she uses the term "empiricism" in three instances as she revisits the now centuries-old philosophical debate.
::<p>By contrast, when we speak of scientific method today, the word "empirical" is standard, not "empiricist" or "empiricism". This is overwhelmingly the case, and I shouldn't even need to post a bunch of sources as indicators of this common usage by any number of reliable sources today. ... ] 20:26, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
:::The cited peer reviewed source says literally: "Kurtz's definition captures these two most important aspects of modern naturalism: (1) the reliance on scientific method, grounded in empiricism". We're not talking about common usage, but of the usage within this cited source. I think the words are chosen carefully and should not be replaced arbitrarily. --] 20:41, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
::::Rtc, we aren't obliged to resort to the traditional philosophical usage when the overwhelmingly dominant usage today doesn't rely on "empiricist" or "empiricism", but instead merely refers to "empirical" to capture the concept-- unless, of course, the consensus of participants in this article is to use the term "empiricism". I'm outta here for now--July 4-- hot dogs to cook and ample chaise-lounge philosophy to indulge in. Bye for now. ... ] 20:51, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
:::::That's a misunderstanding. 'empirical' has a much broader meaning than 'empiricist'. It's wrong to say the one is traditional usage and the other the overwhelmingly dominant usage today. They are simply different words that have always existed and that ''mean different things''. The article explicitly talks about empiricism as the view on the scientific method that begins with observation and that, from these observations, makes conclusions via some sort of logical vindication (induction). 'Empirical' in a broader sense means simply some view on the scientific method that at some point includes observation. Apart from the empiricist view, this also includes, for example, the falsificationist one, that is, starting with some conjecture, and then using observation to try to falsify it. I agree that 'empiricism' is the traditional view on empirical science, but it is not another, more traditional word for it. That's why we have two different articles for the two different words, ] and ]. --] 04:29, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

::::::Writing as a plain vanilla scientist, who has never studied or been interested in the philosophy of science, as near as I can determine by looking at several books and encyclopediae, the correct word is "empirical". Also, I am familiar with how the word is used in everyday usage in science, and in this context, "empirical" is the correct word. This business of endlessly pushing towards philosophical discussions is pointless. The average person who reads this article will not be splitting hairs based on discussions and arguments in the philosophy of science, and historical definitions etc. The average person who reads this will just want to know what it says and what it means, not debate the meaning for hours or days and sit around puzzling about what this or that passage means.--] 14:08, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
:::::::Correct. Today, empiricism doesn't describe the conceptual position that science occupies in the world, because it isn't any longer specific enough and is bogged down in a centuries-old debate involving numerous oddities having to do the the ] and other such things. In philosophy today, tthe appropriate term is "methodological naturalism". "Empirical science", "scientific method", or even just "science" are the terms used today to describe what scientists do, not "empiricism". ... ] 14:43, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

::::::::No real scientist doing real science, except those who have been exposed to this creationism/intelligent design/creation science debate even uses terms like "methodological naturalism". When I first encountered creationists and they started throwing all these philosophy of science terms around, I was lost. I think a lot of it is to obscure what is really going on. They should just be honest and say, "I am a creationist and I demand that magic be reintroduced into science." And science does not include magic. That makes it easy to understand for everyone, so no one gets confused.--] 15:42, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
::::::::::Yes, absolutely. I did ''not'' intend to imply that a scientist would put "methodological naturalism" on her or his CV or business card! or even in casual conversation ("So what do you do?" "Oh, I'm a methodological naturalist; how about you? "I'm a pseudoscientist, myself") ;) ... ] 16:38, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
:::::::::::] works entirely without methodological naturalism or other orthodox doctrines, yet serious and successful scientists accepted it, among them Einstein. How come? --] 16:42, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
::::::::::::Perhaps I should have said: "Unless, of course, the conversation or argument has to do with defining science, or with the ], or with those who attempt to capitalize inappropriately on the hard-earned credibility of "science" by applying the word to their endeavors outside of scientific method." ... ] 16:44, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
<undent>Well I have read Einstein's scientific work, and I did not see any discussion of critical rationalism or methodological naturalism or empiricism or any other philosophical terms. He might have done some work in that area, but it is certainly nothing that is well known in the science community and certainly not the reaason he is celebrated, or his major contributions to human knowledge. However, if you have references to prove me wrong, show me. The value of Einstein's work has been because of its empirical support. Otherwise, it would be useless. --] 19:43, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
:We are talking about one specific source which talks about emiricism specifically, and the source is misrepresented by talking of empirical science. empiricsm is not empirical science, it is one specific view on it. What is said does not apply to all views on empirical science. We're talking about Intelligent Design, and it's mostly a problem of philosophy, not of science (in fact, while there is a lot of fuss about it among scientists, the philosophers are only yawning). So we can't use general inexact science jargon, but need to be philosophically exact. It seems to me that too many scientists and too few competent philosophers are editing the article (all scientists are also philosophers, but most are not aware of that and even fewer of them are competent ones—einstein was a notable exception). --] 16:24, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

::The reason that there is a fuss in science about intelligent design is that it is a weapon aimed straight at the heart of science, intended to destroy it, as the DI has written over and over again in various documents. And scientists are not philosophers, at least not in the modern sense. No courses or knowledge of philosophy is required in their training. In my opinion, no training in this area is required either. Some of the people who are opposing Intelligent Design are philosophers like ]. And their opinion is not that intelligent design is trying to alter science, not mess with philosophy. So this just looks like more pointless arguing and even trolling.--] 19:43, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Oh Jeez, not this again... Give it a rest. ID's proponents have staked their claims about ID in science, not philosophy, so this article is going to reflect that. ] 18:11, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

:I agree completely. Intelligent design and its cousin, creation science claim to rely on science, not on philosophy and hair splitting and counting how many angels can dance on the head of pin. If they just admitted they relied on religion and philosophy, instead of science, then there would be no argument. As long as they stay out of the realm of science, scientists have no argument with them. Let them say whatever they like in religion or philosophy. It is ONLY because they are interloping in science where they do not belong that we have problems. --] 18:54, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

:::<p>Because the current discussion has shown itself to be a bit of a conceptual minefield, I'll try to say the following carefully.
:::<p>This discussion started with Rtc asserting, in essence, that the article should use the term "empiricism" instead of "empirical science" ("empirical science" presently is wikilinked to ] in the second sentence of the third paragraph of the section on ], with the entire paragraph quoted immediately below). The text at issue presently is the first sentence and the first footnote that follows, with the footnote actually being in the second sentence of the paragraph:
:::<blockquote>''] uses the ] to create '']'' knowledge based on observation alone (sometimes called ]). Intelligent design proponents seek to change this definition<ref>Barbara Forrest, 2000. "." In ''Philo,'' Vol. 3, No. 2 (Fall-Winter 2000), pp. 7–29.</ref> by eliminating "] ]" from science<ref>Phillip E. Johnson. ''Reason in the Balance: The Case Against Naturalism in Science, Law and Education'' InterVarsity Press, 1995, positions himself as a "theistic realist" against "methodological naturalism."</ref> and replacing it with what the leader of the intelligent design movement, ], calls "]",<ref>"My colleagues and I speak of 'theistic realism'— or sometimes, 'mere creation' — as the defining concept of our movement. This means that we affirm that God is objectively real as Creator, and that the reality of God is tangibly recorded in evidence accessible to science, particularly in biology." Phillip Johnson.</ref> and what critics call "methodological supernaturalism," which means belief in a transcendent, nonnatural dimension of reality inhabited by a transcendent, nonnatural deity. Intelligent design proponents argue that naturalistic explanations fail to explain certain phenomena and that supernatural explanations provide a very simple and intuitive explanation for the origins of life and the universe. <ref>"We are taking an intuition most people have and making it a scientific and academic enterprise, ... We are removing the most important cultural roadblock to accepting the role of God as creator." Phillip E. Johnson quoted. Teresa Watanabe. Los Angeles Times March 25, 2001.</ref> Proponents say that evidence exists in the forms of ] and ] that cannot be explained by natural processes.<ref name=DIposition/>'' </blockquote>
:::<p>There appear to be several issues overlapping and getting a bit conflated in the discussion with User:Rtc, including but not necessarily limited to the following:
:::<p><b>1.</b> Rtc proposes to use the term "empiricism" in the first sentence, which presently reads:
:::<blockquote>''] uses the ] to create '']'' knowledge based on observation alone (sometimes called ]).''</blockquote> Personally I don't see the need to use the term "empiricism" in the text here, because "empirical science" presently links to the article on ]. And I also think the link to the article on empiricism is unnecessary here, because ] is far more consistent with the modern discussion about what "science" focuses upon today.
:::<p><b>2.</b>The footnote to Barbara Forrest's article presently occurs in the second sentence of the relevant paragraph, which reads
:::<blockquote>''Intelligent design proponents seek to change this definition by eliminating "] ]" from science and replacing it with what the leader of the intelligent design movement, ], calls "]", and what critics call "methodological supernaturalism," which means belief in a transcendent, nonnatural dimension of reality inhabited by a transcendent, nonnatural deity.'' </blockquote>
:::This sentence in the article is of course either sentence-by-committee, or a run-on sentence, or both. But the footnote to Forrest's article is, in my opinion, quite correctly and appropriately placed in the context of the text to which it is presently appended. Forrest describes the philosophical landscape in which the ID advocates are attempting to operate. That description includes three (3) uses of the word "empiricism". The uses of the word "empiricism" by Forrest in the cited article do not by any means support the necessary usage of the word "empiricism" in this part of the article text. One of the problems here, as I see it, is that there is presently no WP article on "methodological naturalism", but rather two articles. But rather than having separate articles on methodological and metaphysical naturalism, ] presently links to ], which deals with ''both'' methodological and metaphysical naturalism (i.e., there is a separate article at present on ] but no separate article on ], the latter having been subsumed for the present into ]. I imagine this issue is not permanent and that at some point in the future, ] will perhaps disambiguate to both ] and ] (along with any other future "naturalisms" as philosophers may choose to create, I suppose). But it does create linking problems for the purpose of the specific aspect of the analysis regarding ]. Perhaps more importantly, in terms of potential confusion of the longstanding philosophy debate involving ], naturalism and supernaturalism, etc., I think that the words "empirical science" should instead link to ] rather than to ] as the article has done. ... ] 04:45, 6 July 2007 (UTC) ...
:::<p>For the present, I just changed the wikilink to link to "empirical" rather than "empiricism" . ... ] 04:59, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

== Proposed shrinkage of introduction ==

The following is an attempt to reduce the size and verbosity of the introduction while retaining all the essential facts. It reduces the introduction from 371 to 309 words (not including reference text or comments). ''No references have been removed or altered.''

Here's what I did:

* Rephrased cumbersome sentences.
* Summarized excessive detail:
** Mentioned only one scientific association by name. The others are cited by reference.
** Removed the name of the ''Kitzmiller'' judge.
** Removed a restatement of the Discovery Institute's goals.
* Changed paragraph boundaries, putting the "is it science?" issue entirely in the second paragraph.
* Cited the '']'' article by name (and spelled it correctly) rather than hiding it behind the word "]".
* Added one detail: The ''Edwards v. Aguillard'' case dealt with "]".

Please provide ''concrete'' and ''specific'' responses to this proposed edit. For instance, if you think I've understated a particular point, provide the precise phrasing you would like to see. --] 03:48, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

<div class=boilerplate style="border:1px solid black; background-color: #eee; padding: 10px; margin: 2em 0 0 0;">

'''Intelligent design''' is the claim that "certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as ]."<!--

REFERENCE
--><ref name=DIposition>{{cite web|url=http://www.discovery.org/csc/topQuestions.php#questionsAboutIntelligentDesign|title=Top Questions-1.What is the theory of intelligent design?|publisher=]|accessdate=2007-05-13}}.</ref><ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.ideacenter.org/stuff/contentmgr/files/393410a2d36e9b96329c2faff7e2a4df/miscdocs/intelligentdesigntheoryinanutshell.pdf|title=Primer: Intelligent Design Theory in a Nutshell|publisher=|date=2004|accessdate=2007-05-13}}</ref><ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.intelligentdesignnetwork.org/|title=Intelligent Design|publisher=Intelligent Design network|date=2007|accessdate=2007-05-13}}</ref><!--

TEXT--> It is a modern form of the traditional ] for the existence of God, modified to avoid specifying the nature or identity of the designer.<!--

REFERENCE
--><ref>"ID is not a new scientific argument, but is rather an old religious argument for the existence of God. He traced this argument back to at least Thomas Aquinas in the 13th century, who framed the argument as a syllogism: Wherever complex design exists, there must have been a designer; nature is complex; therefore nature must have had an intelligent designer.""this argument for the existence of God was advanced early in the 19th century by Reverend Paley" (the ]) "The only apparent difference between the argument made by Paley and the argument for ID, as expressed by defense expert witnesses Behe and Minnich, is that ID’s 'official position' does not acknowledge that the designer is God." ] ], December, 2005.</ref><ref> ]. May, 2007.</ref><ref>"intelligent design does not address metaphysical and religious questions such as the nature or identity of the designer." "the nature, moral character and purposes of this intelligence lie beyond the competence of science and must be left to religion and philosophy.", (pdf)</ref><!--

TEXT--> Its primary proponents, members of the ],<!--

REFERENCE
--><ref><cite>"Q. Has the Discovery Institute been a leader in the intelligent design movement? A. Yes, the Discovery Institute's Center for Science and Culture. Q. And are almost all of the individuals who are involved with the intelligent design movement associated with the Discovery Institute? A. All of the leaders are, yes."</cite> ], 2005, testifying in the ] trial. .</ref><ref> "The Discovery Institute is the ideological and strategic backbone behind the eruption of skirmishes over science in school districts and state capitals across the country." Jodi Wilgoren. The New York Times, August 21 2005.</ref><ref> Frequently Asked Questions About "Intelligent Design", ].</ref><ref> Joseph P. Kahn. The Boston Globe, July 27 2005.</ref><ref> Science and Theology News. November 2005. (PDF file).</ref><ref> "The engine behind the ID movement is the Discovery Institute." Journal of Clinical Investigation 116:1134–1138 (2006). doi:10.1172/JCI28449. A publication of the American Society for Clinical Investigation.</ref><ref name="aaas_pr"> American Association for the Advancement of Science.</ref><!--

TEXT--> believe the designer to be the ].<!--

REFERENCE
--><ref>"the writings of leading ID proponents reveal that the designer postulated by their argument is the God of Christianity." ], ], December, 2005</ref><!--

TEXT-->

Intelligent design's advocates claim that it is a ] ],<!--

REFERENCE
--><ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.discovery.org/csc/topQuestions.php|title=Top Questions about intelligent design|publisher=]|accessdate=2007-05-13}}</ref><!--

TEXT--> while seeking to redefine ] to accept ] as well as ] explanations.<!--

REFERENCE
--><ref>Stephen C. Meyer and Paul A. Nelson, May 1, 1996, , A book review, Origins & Design, Retrieved ],</ref><ref>Phillip E. Johnson, August 31, 1996, , Access Research Network Phillip Johnson Files, Retrieved ],</ref><ref>Stephen C. Meyer, December 1, 2002, Ignatius Press. ,</ref><ref>], ], December, 2005.</ref><ref>See also<!--relevant? ] and--> ], February 13, 2007, Retrieved ]. </ref><!--
TEXT
--> The ] in the ] is that intelligent design is not science.<!-- PLEASE NOTE that the scientific community never "states" anything, it only makes considerations through scientific consensus --><!--

REFERENCE
--><ref name=unscientific>See: 1) ] 2) ]. 3) The Discovery Institute's ] petition begun in 2001 has been signed by "over 700 scientists" as of ], ]. A four day ] petition gained 7733 signatories from scientists opposing ID. The AAAS, the largest association of scientists in the U.S., has 120,000 members, and . More than 70,000 Australian scientists and educators . on the status intelligent design and other forms of creationism.</ref><!--

TEXT--> The ] has argued that intelligent design fails to be science, because it makes no testable predictions or hypotheses.<!--

REFERENCE
--><ref> National Academy of Sciences, 1999
<!-- End of quotation --> </ref><!--


== Shorten the SD ==
TEXT--> Other scientific associations have concurred, or termed it ] or ].<!--


The ] should be improved. One, the overall article is about the creationist argument. With this in mind we can describe ID as an "argument" and thereby give the potential reader the essence of the topic. But two, more importantly, "pseudoscientific" adds unnecessary POV. Would we be happy with an article title of ]? ''No''. But we do have various articles in ] and ]. Would any of the articles benefit from SDs that said "]"? Again, ''no''. Let's just say that ] is an argument and leave out the unnecessary "pseudoscientific" adjective. – ] (]) 01:16, 27 October 2022 (UTC)
REFERENCE
:"'pseudoscientific' adds unnecessary POV". Can't see it myself. 'pseudoscientific' is used in the first sentence of the lede, so is clearly considered an integral NPOV element of the topic. As such, it merits inclusion in the SD; as ] says "These descriptions ... help users identify the desired article", so including 'pseudoscientific' functions to aid in identifying 'Intelligent design' as the article about the pseudoscientific argument. -- ] (]) 01:44, 27 October 2022 (UTC)
--><ref>National Science Teachers Association, a professional association of 55,000 science teachers and administrators in a 2005 press release: "We stand with the nation's leading scientific organizations and scientists, including Dr. John Marburger, the president's top science advisor, in stating that intelligent design is not science.…It is simply not fair to present pseudoscience to students in the science classroom." National Science Teachers Association Press Release ] ].</ref><ref>"for most members of the mainstream scientific community, ID is not a scientific theory, but a creationist pseudoscience." David Mu. Harvard Science Review, Volume 19, Issue 1, Fall 2005..</ref><ref>"Creationists are repackaging their message as the pseudoscience of intelligent design theory." American Association for the Advancement of Science, 2001.</ref><ref> Journal of Clinical Investigation 116:1134–1138 American Society for Clinical Investigation, 2006.</ref><ref><cite>"Biologists aren’t alarmed by intelligent design's arrival in Dover and elsewhere because they have all sworn allegiance to atheistic materialism; they’re alarmed because intelligent design is junk science."</cite> H. Allen Orr. Annals of Science. New Yorker May 2005. .</ref><ref> Also, ] Tower of Babel: The Evidence Against the New Creationism. .</ref><ref> Mark Bergin. World Magazine, Vol. 21, No. 8 February 25 2006.
::I observe that the ] article on the simple English Misplaced Pages treats the subject drastically differently than this one and doesn't even mention pseudoscience. ~] <small>(])</small> 04:46, 27 October 2022 (UTC)
<!-- End of quotation --> </ref>
:::Misplaced Pages is not a reliable source. But maybe someone should change the ] article. I have experience there. Does one replace "pseudoscientific" by "stupid" or "wrong" to change it from English to Simple English? --] (]) 05:21, 27 October 2022 (UTC)
::::This is not a question of RS for either WP or Simple WP. (No matter what, the Simple ID article must be NPOV. And changes to the Simple article are best discussed there.) I "simply" ask that we remove the POV-laden "pseudoscientific" from the short description in this regular WP article. – ] (]) 05:02, 28 October 2022 (UTC)
:::::{{tq|This is not a question of RS}} Yes it is. You were trying to change this Misplaced Pages article based on what another Misplaced Pages article says, so you were trying to use the other article as a source for this one. --] (]) 05:17, 28 October 2022 (UTC)


::If something is science and looks like science, one does not need to mention that it is science. That is the reason why the "scientific" adjective is not used.
<!--TEXT-->
::Pseudoscience is something that pretends to be science, so it looks like science but it is not science. That is the reason why the "pseudoscientific" adjective is used. --] (])
The term "intelligent design" originated in response to a 1987 ] ruling, '']'', which forbade the teaching of "]" in public schools on ] grounds of ].<!--
::: My concern is about the POV vs. NPOV tone of the SD. We can describe the article as "an argument about ...." and avoid saying it is "arcane", "former", "inaccurate", "irrelevant", "dismissed in scientific circles", "]", etc. The ] guidance says "avoid 'former', 'retired', 'late', 'defunct', 'closed', etc.." Removing "pseudo" helps us comply with this guidance. – ] (]) 04:42, 28 October 2022 (UTC)
::::No, it does not. Calling a pseudoscience "pseudoscience" is perfectly NPOV when reliable sources consistently call it pseudoscience. I think you need to actually read ] instead of just saying it. Also ], ] and ].
::::Also, the logic "the rules say we should avoid X, therefore we should avoid Y" leaves something to be desired. --] (]) 05:17, 28 October 2022 (UTC)
:::::If the words "pseudoscience" or "pseudoscientific" are to be replaced, I do appreciate Hob's suggestion to use the words "stupid" or "wrong" instead. - ]the ] 06:46, 28 October 2022 (UTC)
::::::@] You've failed to address the point I made in immediate response:
::::::'pseudoscientific' is used in the first sentence of the lede, so is clearly considered an integral NPOV element of the topic. As such, 'pseudoscientific' merits inclusion in the SD; as ] says "These descriptions ... help users identify the desired article", so including 'pseudoscientific' functions to aid in identifying 'Intelligent design' as the article about the pseudoscientific argument.


::::::You don't seem to have any issue with 'pseudoscientific' being used in the article itself, so your objection to it in the SD seems perverse. --] (]) 07:44, 28 October 2022 (UTC)
REFERENCE
-->
<ref>''Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District,'' ], citing [[Edwards v. Aguilard, 82 U.S. 578, 594 (1987)</ref><!--


:] Can you put the existing SD alongside something proposed ? I am doubtful you will make headway for ], but a definite comparison might at least get a focus back to about being shorter. Cheers ] (]) 07:21, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
TEXT
:I agree. The inclusion of the qualifier "pseudoscientific" is superfluous to the point that it reeks of bias.
--> The first significant published use of "intelligent design" was in a 1989 textbook intended for high-school biology classes titled '']''.<!--
:I don't think it's a battle worth fighting.
REFERENCE
:Yes, the short description is… not short. Especially when you compare it to the length of the rest of the article. Further, some of its content is redundant with the body content.
--><ref>''Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District,'' ]</ref><!--
:But it's not just the first sentence that has a POV problem. The entire short description—nay, the whole article—is marred with bias to the point that it to me looks not salvageable. And even if it were, it seems that it's guarded by a group of ideologues: fanatics who will pile on their fallacious rhetoric until the hope is sucked dry from you by the tyranny of their majority. ] (]) 10:19, 11 April 2023 (UTC)
::Yup, the tyranny of ]. <sarcasm warning>How sad!</sarcasm warning> ] (]) 11:43, 11 April 2023 (UTC)
:::Straw Man. I am ''not'' criticizing ]. When I say tyranny of the majority (which I definitely feel is happening on a large scale around discussion of this topic) I'm criticizing use of specific rhetorical devices and fallacious reasoning such as (but not limited to) ] and secondary implications such as ], overconfidence in conventional wisdom and secular orthodoxy, false sense of inerrancy, and myriad intellectual vices such as ] which you just used on me with your sarcasm.
:::I'm not without hypocrisy; I admit my previous comment used blatant ad hominem attack. But just because I indulged in intellectual vice for a moment doesn't invalidate my sentiment.
:::A new article need to be written about what ID really is at a fundamental level—a theory of the origin of life—outside of and disconnected from its social contexts. ] (]) 13:02, 11 April 2023 (UTC)
::::It isn't a scientific theory. Not even a scientific hypothesis. Because nobody took care to formulate it as a cogent scientific hypothesis. ] died without knowing the hypothesis of intelligent design. ] (]) 13:09, 11 April 2023 (UTC)
:::::That sounds like an appeal to ignorance. The theory is not valid because there hasn't been a person who has put it in a form that acceptable to you and the consensus/majority? Who is the authority on what constistutes a "cogent scientific hypothesis"? Why would we need Phillip E. Johnson to come back to life and do it for us? How do you know one is not already out there? ] (]) 13:35, 11 April 2023 (UTC)
:::::Wait you got me on another red herring there; I never claimed it to be a scientific theory. Which is why I think there needs to be a page presenting it without any claims of it being a scientific theory, similar to the page on the ]. Just because I am suggesting the theory—in and of itself—as not scientific does not mean that it is pseudoscience. On the contrary it would arguably call for it to be, by definition of pseudoscience, no longer labeled as pseudoscience. You don't see the ] theory labeled as pseudoscience. As should be the case with ID. ] (]) 13:45, 11 April 2023 (UTC)
::::::Big Bang, despite your protestations, ''is'' a widely-accepted scientific theory. For the metaphysical correspondent of ID, see ]. That, my friend, is a bona fide philosophical argument, but alas it has nothing to do with ]. ] (]) 13:49, 11 April 2023 (UTC)
::::::{{tq|That sounds like an appeal to ignorance}} Oh, the irony. ID itself is one huge heap of appeal to ignorance ("I tried to find a way how evolution can make things like X, and I failed"; insert every biological feature for X); it does not have any actual content beyond that. And that is the very reason why ID is no scientific hypothesis. You are talking to people with lots of experience debating "Cdesign proponentsists", and every time one asks one of them for the theory of ID, one gets crickets.
::::::{{tq|How do you know one is not already out there?}} The burden of proof is on the person who claims that it exists. Bring it here, and everybody will be baffled, stunned, and surprised.
::::::Independent of that, this is ]. Your claim of bias is commonplace for every article about any pseudoscience - see ] - and does not impress anybody. --] (]) 15:09, 11 April 2023 (UTC)
:::Sources are sometimes bias as well. Given that it is a controversial topic we should add further in the article that "it is considered by most scientists a pseudoscientific argument" given the right sources, but not in the opening paragraph. Is like if someone made the opening paragraph of ] to be "The gender pay gap or gender wage gap is the ALLEGEDLY difference between the remuneration for men and women who are working." - ] (]) 23:39, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
::::The thing is, all pro-Intelligent Design sources are notoriously unreliable, and "unbiased sources" are invariably accused and denounced as being negatively biased due to accurately describing Intelligent Design as religiously-inspired, anti-science flimflam. ] (]) 00:00, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
:::::I fully agree with you. Since the professional editors of the Encyclopedia Britannica didn't consider it appropriate to apply the label "pseudoscientific" to ID theory, it seems reasonable to avoid that in order to preserve neutrality. The better approach would be to neutrally include the statement by the US National Academy of Science saying that it isn't a legitimate scientific theory. I would argue that the term 'pseudoscience' is appropriately applied to theories like Flat Earth. Because ID has support from a number of scientists with relevant educational backgrounds, I believe it is more accurately categorized as 'fringe science' or 'questionable science' prominent supporters of ID include: award winning chemist Dr. Henry F. Schaefer III, professor of biochemistry Dr. Michael Behe, and Microbiology professor Dr. Scott Minnich. Further, a 2018 Pew Poll of members of the American Association for the Advancement of Science found that 2% of members believed humans had always existed in their present form, and another 8% believed that human evolution was guided by a supreme being. ] (]) 20:43, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
::::::Read the FAQ. --] (]) 12:57, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
::I created an account just to agree and complain about the rampant and abhorrent bias and POV narration in the article. While I do not subscribe to the belief myself, the rampant author judgments within is disgustingly transparent and, if I can be crass, immature and embarrassing to read to someone looking for information on the subject. When you have editors like Hob Gadling or Roxy the Dog using charged language like "stupid" to describe belief systems, it worsens the content of the site and makes this article read like the tangents of a lonely Redditor upset that they had to go to Sunday school when they were eight, rather than a source of information.
::For comparison's sake, the article on Scientology reserves such personal judgments, attributing labels of ingenuity and falsehood to third parties, not from the author's own original judgments. Similar belief systems are treated with more respect, but this one is marred entirely because of its prevalence in western culture.
::Such impartial author viewpoints are rampant throughout the article. A few keypoints of contention I noticed from a cursory search include the tangent of the Discovery Institution (cited from someone saying they're "a leader" because several members of the movement are "associated," as if there's any other article out there that pulls such vague weasel wording. To air out dirty laundry, it's very apparent that this is for the purpose of associating the article with conservative think tanks as a prelude, rather than as a detail later on in the history of the article, where such information should be placed). The line "Detailed scientific examination has rebutted several examples for which evolutionary explanations are claimed to be impossible." strikes me too (the preceding claims should be included in a summary, with these examinations placed in a proceeding criticism section. Such is the norm for most articles, but this one gets an exception because the editors REALLY want everyone to know their takes on it). "The Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District court ruling held the latter to be the case." line is out of place and only contextualized by scouring the references and notes before when this should have its own section, the line itself following what reads like original research on the dilemma of what the belief states. The article itself is littered with details that add very little ("A Discovery Institute report says that Charles B. Thaxton, editor of Pandas, had picked the phrase up from a NASA scientist, and thought, "That's just what I need, it's a good engineering term."") There is a separate article for that book; include the information there! In the section on concepts of the belief system, while generally more well-constructed, it still has its fair share of issues. The paragraph of "Critics point out that the irreducible complexity" is vague in referring to whom these critics are, which is embarrassing when the section on Specified complexity does this tactic of citing a vague "scientific community" correctly. The "Fine-tuned universe" paragraph has only one citation, and it doesn't even link to anything! The distinction of the ideology from the movement is made too little too late for how the article presents the relevance of the Discovery Institution...
::I could go on, but I have a feeling the people responsible for the poor state of the article have their heels dug in so deeply that they will refuse to acknowledge the myriad of problems within the article, so I'll abridge my grievances: the article is absolutely filled with author judgments more concerned with refuting the subject rather than presenting a clean, readable text, and as a result the article is filled with poor citations, clunky and out-of-place details, and an astonishing amount of frontloaded bloat. It has been an absolute chore to read this thing.
::I know this is going to be taken in bad faith to be misconstrued as "remove all criticism from the article," which is absolutely not backed up by anything I just said, so let me repeat that's not what I'm asking. I'm asking that the few people with self-restraint here actually structure the article to read like something trying to give an overview of the subject foremost, criticisms debunkings and all, in a clean, readable manner, and not like it was written foremost as a sloppy blog entry wearing the skin of an encyclopedia.
::] (]) 20:56, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
:::ID is a paragon of pseudoscience, according to ], and we have the website policy ].
:::About Scientology: we don't say that because that is a matter of judging intentions rather than judging facts. ] (]) 21:09, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
::::I would implore you to actually read the post you're replying to.
::::I do not care about validity of the subject matter (though I do think the "pseudoscience" label could benefit from a citation and end a lot of talk on this page if added, since one thing I keep seeing while reading posts here is that there's apparently a lot of sources calling it one). I'm discussing the poor state in which this article is written because it's entirely from people foremost interested in taking the ideology down a peg thinking they have article ownership and loading it with original research, to a point that it reads worse than other infamous pseudoscience topics. Similar articles have clear and lengthy sections for criticisms and debunkings that serve just fine. This one opts to make a massive mess of the subject. It's a badly written article.
::::You can agree or disagree with the subject, but from an objective point of view the article is a mess. If I find the energy/time, I'll clean up a lot of my grievances myself.
::::] (]) 22:10, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
:::::The tone can get copy/edited. But the fact that it is patent pseudoscience should remain inside the article, very clearly and unambiguously expressed. In that respect we have no choice, since website policy is binding. ] (]) 22:16, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
::::::{{tq|The tone can get copy/edited. But the fact that it is patent pseudoscience should remain inside the article}}
::::::For probably the third time now, I don't give a crap about that label. I would even agree that it should be there if it was sourced. My problem is the article is poorly written. I have given several examples demonstrating this, please actually read those instead of arguing against a point nobody is making.
::::::] (]) 22:48, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
:::::::Okay, to the point: criticism sections are dissuaded. Criticism should be spread inside the article, refuting each point being made by the pseudoscientists.
:::::::In other words: the fact that this article does not have a criticism section is a net positive, and the articles which do aren't good examples to imitate. ] (]) 23:02, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
::::::::{{tq|Criticism should be spread inside the article, refuting each point being made by the pseudoscientists.}}
::::::::Do you have a policy you can point to that illustrates that to be the case? This is one of the only articles I have seen on the site whose reading goes out of its way to meticulously try to debunk everything stated within it. This type of writing isn't employed in many other religious articles if at all, and reads choppy and unfocused.
::::::::] (]) 01:24, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::]. ] (]) 02:05, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
::::::::::While I do honestly appreciate the attempt at giving a policy, the subject of this page should fall under an exception mentioned:
::::::::::"For topics about a particular point of view – such as philosophies (Idealism, Naturalism, Existentialism), political outlooks (Capitalism, Marxism), or religion (Islam, Christianity, Atheism) – it will usually be appropriate to have a "Criticism" section or "Criticism of ..." subarticle. Integrating criticism into the main article can cause confusion because readers may misconstrue the critical material as representative of the philosophy's outlook, the political stance, or the religion's tenets."
::::::::::In the case of this article, there are several instances where this kind of information is haphazardly placed about because of the lack of refrain. I listed one in the article trying to link the subject to a conservative think tank, but there are more.
::::::::::] (]) 02:47, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::::ID is propagated by a Christian conservative think-tank. It's not some accidental detail of it, it is so by design. ] (]) 03:24, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
::::::::::::The section as worded reads like a clear violation of ]. A stronger relationship than "The leading proponents of ID are associated with" should be provided, and this information should be listed in the section regarding the movement. While the information is important to include, in its current state it's not important enough to include in the opening section, much less before the early history of the ideology before YECs.
::::::::::::] (]) 03:50, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::::::Let me tell you something: the people who hate mainstream science already got the message that Misplaced Pages is against them. So, we're writing for a certain audience, not for everybody.
:::::::::::::Our bias is not concealed. People who love Misplaced Pages, love it for such bias. ] (]) 05:11, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
::::::::::::::This is an open encyclopedia, not your personal blog. I don't give a crap what windmill-tilting you seem to think is being waged against a couple hundred creationist nutjobs, the article is written like crap and I've given several clear examples and policies that showcase very specific examples.
::::::::::::::] (]) 17:37, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
{{od|::::::::::}} @] Rather than yell at clouds, it'd be better to positively address issues. Here's a small example with a big issue behind it: you say, "The "Fine-tuned universe" paragraph has only one citation, and it doesn't even link to anything!". The reason it (and many pseudo-links like it) doesn't link to anything is the big issue and it needs someone with your energy to address it. -- ] (]) 03:19, 13 September 2024 (UTC)


:While I do appreciate the invitation, and will probably take it up when I have more time on my hands, un
TEXT--> The Discovery Institute was founded the following year.<!--
:Judging byIsome of the rather... let's say "brash adamancy" of some of the regulars on this talk page i. I worry that such radical changes such as removing that problematic paragraph and rearranging the criticisms into a cleaner format would be misconstrued as trying to hide or mitigate criticisms against the subject matter. Rather than risk a one-sided edit war, it would be better for the people adding these text to just provide a proper citation and not make the article a complete mess.both carrying the article's current style, I suspect I may need to take your advice regardless.
:] (]) 03:36, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
:As the article is protected, I'm working at a proposed rewrite that cleans up some of the grievances I have with the page on my userpage. As of writing I have the introductory paragraph glanced at. If you're not being coy, I'd like honest feedback on my proposed changes.
:] (]) 18:10, 13 September 2024 (UTC)


::The ] of an article contains the summary of the body of that article. So, unless the version you are proposing is very closed from the current version, any new introduction not properly summarizing the '''current version''' of the article is likely to be a non starter. --] (]) 19:09, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
REFERENCE
:::{{tq|So, unless the version you are proposing is very closed from the current version}}
--><ref> Discovery Institute. September 7, 2004.</ref><ref> James M. Kushiner. Touchstone Magazine, November 2000.</ref><ref> Jodi Wilgoren. The New York Times, August 21 2005.</ref><!--
:::] I left commentary, including two explicit requests for citations.
:::] (]) 19:43, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
::::You are requesting a citation for "pseudoscience". But no citation is given, according to ]. So, yes, there is a reason why no citation is given.
::::I saw the changes you advocate for: the changes are minor, and often not compliant with ]s. About impartiality, see ].
::::Also, I don't see why ] should be provided for a ''hidden comment.'' ] (]) 00:26, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
:::::{{tq|You are requesting a citation for "pseudoscience". But no citation is given, according to WP:CITELEAD. So, yes, there is a reason why no citation is given.}}
:::::I believe the exceptions listed in ] are applicable here, given how contentious the label has been in these talk pages, and from the opening sentence of the article itself having ''five ''citations within it. Moving the fifth reference to specifically address the pseudoscience label adds no new citations to the lead and satisfies my complaint with that particular point. I ask in my suggestions for someone to provide a source since (1) I believe there may be a more readily-available source that could be used in its place, and (2) I typed it on mobile and don't like using the article editor for more than basic formatting.
:::::{{tq|I saw the changes you advocate for: the changes are minor, and often not compliant with WP:PAGs. About impartiality, see WP:FALSEBALANCE.}}
:::::I'm tempted to evoke ] here, as "and often not compliant with WP:PAGs" is possibly one of the most vague and thus irrelevant complaints that could be levied. I ask for forgiveness in being heated for a moment; the idea that a simple cleanup to the article, a cleanup in which I've not added anything to even hint at the validity of ID and attempted to avoid ] by retaining criticisms except in cases where it would be better to move information, is even remotely the same thing as trying to make a false balance is overly simplistic and a tad insulting. Misplaced Pages is not obliged to validate pseudoscience, I can agree and don't think either of us said otherwise, but it's also ] (much less ]) to make it a messy read or use the notion of bias existing to ] in ways that harm the objective tone and pacing of the article.
:::::The thing that really gets me scratching my head about all of this is that the sources and facts are against ID, so making a clearer article helps ID proponents none.
:::::] (]) 06:43, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
::::::] was a reply to {{tq|more impartially}}. You proposed minor edits, so I don't see those as either cleanup of the article or making the article more impartial. This all debate seems therefore as much ado about nothing. ] (]) 07:12, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
:::::::{{tq|WP:FALSEBALANCE was a reply to more impartially}}
:::::::I never asked for more impartiality, I described this as a perk of the cleanup. Please follow the conversation.
:::::::{{tq|You proposed minor edits, so I don't see those as either cleanup of the article or making the article more impartial.}}
:::::::I'll ignore the non-sequitur in that and reassert the context of what's happening: I am pulling teeth against a user who thinks ] means an author should argue against the subject of an article, and am being met with resistance for miniscule cleanups in the opening paragraphs. I would go through cleaning up the entire thing for its other myriad issues, but lack any trust that such exhaustive efforts would be met with anything besides someone violating ].
:::::::This debate being "for nothing" can be amswered with one question: what is going to happen if I try to get even those simple cleanups in the lead put in? I hope, in that front, I'd have made a stink for nothing.
:::::::] (]) 07:28, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
::::::::Well, friend, I'm only one editor, so I never decide myself the ].
::::::::] is an essay, meaning it is neither policy, nor guideline. ] on the other hand is website policy. So, obviously, website policy trumps an essay. ] (]) 08:05, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::{{tq|Well, friend, I'm only one editor, so I never decide myself the WP:CONSENSUS.}}
:::::::::I'm really interested in what conversation you're having in which you're debating if ID is pseudoscience.
:::::::::It seriously is grating to read so many replies from you that fail to address even one point being brought up and instead go after some paranoia.
:::::::::{{tq|WP:NOOBJECTIVITY is an essay, meaning it is neither policy, nor guideline.}}
:::::::::That argument is on-par with the "evolution is just a theory" sound bite creationists love. summarizes a policy which reads {{tq|"which means representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, '''without editorial bias,''' all the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic."}}
:::::::::Emphasis mine. Meanwhile you're on here justifying an article littered with ] with {{tq|"Our bias is not concealed. People who love Misplaced Pages, love it for such bias."}} I
:::::::::
:::::::::{{tq|WP:PSCI on the other hand is website policy}}
:::::::::Is '''anyone''' here arguing that ID isn't pseudoscience?
:::::::::] (]) 19:33, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
::::::::::] requires a certain tone of the article. While you admit that ID is pseudoscience, you seek to soften the tone of the article. E.g. downplaying that it is essentially a movement propagated by a conservative Christian think tank. And that it caters to fundamentalist Christians and evangelicals, since Catholics and mainline Protestants made peace with the theory of evolution. And that instead of seeking to discover new objective facts in biology, it is essentially a ploy to introduce God in sciences, i.e. despite the boundaries established by Immanuel Kant, who said he had to deny knowledge in order to make room for faith. ] (]) 21:21, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::::{{tq|WP:PSCI requires a certain tone of the article}}
:::::::::::I do not believe you are meeting that tone. You are going beyond meeting explaining that the content of the article is wrong and are more focused on a personal mission to debate everything within it with ]. There's several instances where you're barely citing scientific experts or explaining that the counterarguments come from these experts.
:::::::::::* "A sufficiently succinct summary of the argument from design shows its unscientific, circular, and thereby illogical reasoning" '''<-- This is ''your ''conclusion presented without a source'''
:::::::::::* "Whether this lack of specificity about the designer's identity in public discussions is a genuine feature of the concept – or just a posture taken to avoid alienating those who would separate religion from the teaching of science – has been a matter of great debate between supporters and critics of intelligent design. The Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District court ruling held the latter to be the case." '''<-- Debated by whom? This is the closing paragraph of a section, not the beginning summary. Don't just reference the court ruling in-sentence either, put its verdict at the end and cite the case.'''
:::::::::::* "Variations on the phrase appeared in Young Earth creationist publications (...) there in the first place."" '''<-- Move source 34 earlier, since there's a clear split in the paragraph where it stops referencing material from it and starts referencing material from 33.'''
:::::::::::* "Critics point out that the irreducible complexity argument assumes that the necessary parts of a system have always been necessary and therefore could not have been added sequentially." '''<-- I don't have anything suggesting needing fixed here, I want to point out that this paragraph is mostly good. The vague "critics" is part of the introduction, but even it's cited, and later on it starts giving names with specific arguments. This is good. This is how the article should read. There's a lot of sections that read like this, and I feel as if it would be unfair to leave them unrecognized.'''
:::::::::::* "Irreducible complexity has remained a popular argument among advocates of intelligent design;" '''<--- I say the paragraph is "mostly" good because of this line. This should be reworded or removed. It doesn't help the proceeding explicitly cited debunking, and it is redundant. You are presenting this idea first in the argument list. Narratively, this weight assumes that it's a popular argument (avoid weasel words too).'''


:::::::::::There are more examples, but I wish to move on. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 14:08, 19 September 2024 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
TEXT--> This "]" became more visible in the 1990s and early 2000s, as a small number of U.S. school districts adopted intelligent design into their science curricula. In ], a group of parents of students in ] brought a lawsuit challenging the practice. In this case, '']'', the court ruled that intelligent design is not science, that it "cannot uncouple itself from its creationist, and thus religious, antecedents", and thus that the school district's promotion of it violated the ] of the ].<!--


:::::::::::{{tq|While you admit that ID is pseudoscience}}
REFERENCE
:::::::::::This statement reads as if you're proposing that everyone who agrees with the scientific community should be okay with the sloppy article, which is ridiculous. It's entirely possible to be objective about a topic known to be false, and to criticize an article on the subject for its shortcomings.
--><ref>], ], Case No. 04cv2688. ] ]</ref><!--
:::::::::::{{tq|you seek to soften the tone of the article (...)}}
:::::::::::It is apparent you are not reading my posts, and came in here with a preconceived notion that everyone critical of the article's writing and structure must be a proponent of ID, and no amount of reasoning or given examples of the article's shortcomings will convince you otherwise.
:::::::::::Get this through your head. Sit down and read this slowly, multiple times if needed: '''I am not arguing about the validity of ID. I am addressing the writing of a poorly-constructed Misplaced Pages article.'''
:::::::::::It's as if you think not including the sources of these statement would make anyone susceptible to believing ID. When a lot of people see articles like this one, argumentized takedowns that use your own wording more than the scientific community's, they see someone with a personal grudge about the ideology and want to know why it made them so mad, and end up looking into it. Having names behind the statements make the content stronger and more reliable, which hurts ID more.
:::::::::::Instead of squabbling with you further, I'm going to begin making some minor edits to the article to fix some of these myriad issues.
:::::::::::] (]) 14:07, 19 September 2024 (UTC)


== Pseudoscience? Creationism? ==
TEXT-->
</div>


Sir Fred Hoyle, staunch lifelong atheist - "hard" atheist -in his Omni Lecture at the Royal Institution, London, January 12th, 1982, had this to say:
“The difference between an intelligent ordering, whether of words, fruit boxes, amino acids, or the Rubik cube, and merely random shufflings can be fantastically large, even as large as a number that would fill the whole volume of Shakespeare’s plays with its zeros. So if one proceeds directly and straightforwardly in this matter, without being deflected by a fear of incurring the wrath of scientific opinion, one arrives at the conclusion that biomaterials with their amazing measure of order must be the outcome of intelligent design. No other possibility I have been able to think of in pondering this issue over quite a long time seems to me to have anything like as high a possibility of being true.” ] (]) 23:30, 19 February 2024 (UTC)


A defining characteristic of ID is that it is a form of creationism. This needs to be stated in the introductory paragraph. ] 05:17, 6 July 2007 (UTC) : Please read the FAQ at the top of the page. You could also take a look at ]. --] (]) 23:49, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
::See ] and ]--] (]) 00:12, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
:I second Pasado on this. I would also suggest "In ], a group of parents of students in ] brought a lawsuit challenging the practice. In this case, '']'', the court ruled that intelligent design is not science, that it "cannot uncouple itself from its creationist, and thus religious, antecedents", and thus that the school district's promotion of it violated the ] of the ]." be reduced down to "In ], in '']'', a federal court ruled that intelligent design is not science, that it "cannot uncouple itself from its creationist, and thus religious, antecedents", and thus that the school district's promotion of it violated the ] of the ]." and that a 'Kitzmiller v. Dover' section be added to the article to cover the details of the case (it is the only major court case involving ID, so is surely notable enough to warrant its own section in this article). ] 05:24, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
:::Also see ]. -- ] (]) 00:29, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
::::And ] and ]. Your own thinking, as any other user's, isn't worth shit here. --] (]) 08:52, 20 February 2024 (UTC)


::I don't see a proposed edit in IP, but the FAQ does not include Hoyle since the article does not. Seems reasonable to discuss if Hoyle *should* be mentioned as a precursor in this article or at ]. The article does mention Paley which is far distant past and not as direct a link nor related to the ID concepts expressed in this article. I easily found reasonable cites in the history of ID that 'the term Intelligent design appears to have been coined from ', and a prominent criticism referring to specified complexity as a '' (about the probability of a tornado assembling a Concorde) -- so having a mention of the precursor and wikilink to ] seems reasonable. But ] use of probability common in scientific studies (although commonly problematic) is more the see-also wikilink than ] since presenting details of method and calculation is not properly termed "incredulity". So -- mention Hoyle here, in SC, or not at all ???? Cheers ] (]) 16:08, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
::Well, if the urge is to revisit the entire long debate about the form of the article lead (the introductory part), I personally would prefer to avoid such a rehashing of every single little issue involving ], ], ]. ] (] being a still-debated "mixerupper" of ] and ] as one single attribute), in addition to ], ] and a host of many other guidelines, all of which must be managed, or course, by ]. The longstanding form of the introduction has been: Paragraph 1 - What ID is and who are its proponents; Paragraph 2 - What the scientific community says ID is in response to the assertion that ID is scientific (which, by the way, is the only reason it's worth an article in WP); and Paragraph 3 - What is ID's legal status. Recently, paragraph 3 was expanded somewhat to integrate (a) an international perspective, and (b) a brief historical overview to quickly let the reader know what led to all this $@#&*$#¡^&¢#ƒü綣®§ that is the topic known to the modern world as "intelligent design".
:::It's important not to conflate the argument from design with intelligent design. The argument from design posits that only an intelligence could have created the universe. Intelligent design OTOH posits that the argument from design is a scientific one and also that it can be bolstered through scientific research.
::<p>My offhand impression is that it's best, in light of the many concerns involved in a controversial article such as this, to keep following the same plan. But, of course, WP:consensus is never permanent, but only requires a sufficient warrant to override a prior consensus and a reasonable justification for following a differnt path. Speaking for myself, I look forward to reading such justification(s). ... ] 05:46, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
:::So Hoyle did not endorse ID. ] (]) 16:29, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
:::: ] - That the article does conflate the argument from design with intelligent design is a different topic than the question of whether to mention ] as a precursor - perhaps in the "Origin of the concept" or the "Fine-tuned universe" sections. And to the contrary, Hoyle is listed as a supporter of ID -- though again the question was whether to note him as a precursor, either here or at ]. To be precise the 'support' means as a precursor he preceded the ] by a few years with his own ideas of ], the argument of improbability and use of ] (similar to ]), his creating the ] metaphor, plus remarks about ], etcetera. His 1983 book "Examines the origins of life on earth, analyzes the Darwinian theory of evolution, and argues that life is the result of a deliberate plan." The 'support' does not mean he was a member of ] and as far as I've googled he made no comment at all about the IDM or court case -- at least nothing as famous as his originating the above concepts. Cheers ] (]) 15:24, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
:::::It's more accurate to say that ID advocates claim him as a precursor. ] (]) 17:52, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
::::::] - so to check, are you answering the question with a yes, that the article mention Hoyle and phrase it 'ID advocates claim him as a precursor' ? Cheers ] (]) 20:20, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
:::::::No, not unless reliable secondary sources routinely mention that ID supporters claim him as a forerunner. And even if they do, it doesn't give us licence to copy the quote above. The purpose of the article is to describe ID based on how it is reported in reliable sources, not to engage in advocating it. ] (]) 20:52, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
::::::::] - understood, although I hope you mean ] and ]. The ID proponents are obviously RS for what ID proponents say, as 'ID advocates claim him as a precursor' is objective fact. Second-party would be anti-ID such as NCSE and hence not reliable for what ID claims nor for ]. Third-party would be outside reporting such as - though I only see they reporting it as fact, not ‘ID advocates claim’ e.g.
::::::::{{xt|The term "intelligent design" appears to have been coined in its contemporary scientific usage by the atheist cosmologist Dr. Fred Hoyle, who in 1982 argued that "if one proceeds directly and straightforwardly in this matter, without being deflected by a fear of incurring the wrath of scientific opinion, one arrives at the conclusion that biomaterials with their amazing measure of order must be the outcome of intelligent design." The term "intelligent design" was also used by non-scientist James E. Horigan in his 1979 book Chance or Design? where Horigan used the term "intelligent design" and framed his argument as an empirical one, "without resort to biblical or other religious references," and without investigating questions about "ultimate purpose."}} Cheers ] (]) 16:58, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::To assert that is reporting it as fact seems a claim too far. It appears in a guest blog by a creationist who begins his post thus: "Most Darwinists involved in the public debate today have one, and only one goal: To stifle free debate on this subject and thereby discourage you, the public, from scrutinizing the scientific evidence for yourself." -- ] (]) 18:44, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
::::::::::] well, among all the googles I had missed that header -- so the quote is showing one example of ID advocates saying Hoyle was a precursor and their mentioning the objective fact that "intelligent design" was a term Hoyle used a few years before. Anyway -- do you have a position about the question of how or if to mention Hoyle in article ? Cheers ] (]) 21:16, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::::ID proponents are not RS for what ID proponents say, because each one is expressing his own opinion, not speaking as a spokesman for the movement.
:::::::::::The fact that Fred Hoyle put the words intelligent and design together in the 1960s doesn't mean he was advocating a belief system that developed decades later.
:::::::::::I don't know why you keep pushing this. Of course some things we cannot explain could be caused by ghosts. But that's beyond the realm of scientific enquiry. ] (]) 06:29, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
::::::::::::] Clearly what was published and that IDM mentions Hoyle of the 1980s is objective fact, the question was how or if to mention Hoyle as a precursor in article, which you have already responded to. Cheers ] (]) 15:03, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
{{od}} Hi Mark, you seem to be trolling and/or trying to ] an argument using primary or unreliable sources. Don't. . . ], ] 22:46, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
::] Hi Dave. I am asking a simple and obvious question — taking note of the IP (which indeed is objective fact and appears fairly commonly mentioned in IDM) to ask if Hoyle should be mentioned as a precursor in this article or at ]. I would prefer if a simple edit question could be easier with simple edit answers, but I suppose any controversial topic has this kind of difficulty of lots of off-question replies. Cheers ] (]) 15:19, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
:::Per weight, Hoyle only belongs in the article if mentioned in reliable secondary sources about ID. As WP:FRINGE says, "Points that are not discussed in independent sources should not be given any space in articles."
:::ID proponents would obviously have us believe that Hoyle endorsed their views. If he did, it would give them respectability. We would need a reliable secondary source to comment on that. ] (]) 16:19, 27 February 2024 (UTC)


:To summarize a conclusion to this subthread: There seems no interest and not much attention to the question, so Hoyle remarks exist and are said by IDM as coining the term "Intelligent Design" they later used, but the conclusion is to not include any mention. The thread question was not whether Hoyle endorsed ID, the question was more whether Hoyle should be mentioned as a precursor. The probability argument quoted by IP and/or Hoyle's use of the term "intelligent designer" seemed candidates for note either here or at ]. Hoyle notably had a probability argument against abiogenesis (]) although that was more generally for advocating cosmic panspermia (]), such as in the 1982 book 'Evolution in Space', rather than an intelligent designer of ]. Anyway, thanks for what input there was and over & out. Cheers ] (]) 18:28, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
Pasado's suggestion is to mention that ID is a form of creationism. This is not in the current introduction, except in the form of the ''Kitzmiller'' court's remarks on the "creationist antecedents" of ID. I don't object to it being added in the future, but I don't think it needs to go in ''this'' revision.


== Intelligent design as an argument for Gods existence? ==
Hrafn42's suggestion is to shorten the introduction further by removing more details about ''Kitzmiller v. Dover'', but to include more details about the case in a section in the article. I agree with the shortened phrasing. I'd like to see a ''Kitzmiller v. Dover'' suggestion.
{{atop|The irony has already peaked with the initial comment and been explained with the response. Risking further irony levels would be reckless and might result in injuries as hapless Wikipedians hurt their ribs laughing at this complaint. ] <small><small>]</small></small> 14:12, 19 December 2024 (UTC)}}
I have to wonder if the people writing this have a hidden agenda. ID proponents have never asserted who the designer is--it could be an Alien for all we know. The introductory sentence is very clearly biased and should be rewritten to be historically neutral. Intelligent design proper is a (pseudo)scientific theory that attempts to demonstrate that certain biological systems can be more adequately explained by theories of design. It is false to say that the theory is meant to prove God's existence--that is the philosophical argument from design. While I doubt the editors here are intellectually honest enough to change this, it is the truth. This article serves as proof as to why Misplaced Pages is an unreliable source for unbiased information. ] (]) 12:54, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
:] did not do a very good job of hiding ''their'' agenda, trying to mask the teaching of creationism in US public schools behind a facade of "intelligent design". See ] for how a US federal court dealt with this "breathtaking inanity". ] (]) 13:35, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
{{abot}}


==Intelligent Design and the Law==
I can't tell what Kenosis is suggesting. Kenosis, could you please clarify the specific concrete changes you're suggesting? --] 06:33, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
Got a link to this from ''Academia'', it's online as linked below, an article in Penn State Law Review . An informative overview, a long read. Possibly a useful source, but think we've already covered the points it make. . . ], ] 21:06, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
*{{cite web |first=Frank S. |last=Ravitch | title=Playing the Proof Game: Intelligent Design and the Law | website=Penn State Law Review – The Flagship Publication of Penn State Law | date=1 February 2009 | url=https://www.pennstatelawreview.org/print-issues/articles/playing-the-proof-game-intelligent-design-and-the-law/ | access-date=21 December 2024}}

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? view · edit Frequently asked questions

Many of these questions arise frequently on the talk page concerning Intelligent design (ID).

To view an explanation to the answer, click the link to the right of the question.

Q1: Should ID be equated with creationism? A1: ID is a form of creationism, and many sources argue that it is identical. U.S. District Judge John E. Jones III ruled that it "cannot uncouple itself from its creationist, and thus religious, antecedents", and Phillip E. Johnson, one of the founders of the ID movement, stated that the goal of intelligent design is to cast creationism as a scientific concept.

Not everyone agrees with this. For example, philosopher Thomas Nagel argues that intelligent design is very different from creation science (see "Public Education and Intelligent Design", Philosophy and Public Affairs, Vol. 36, no. 2, 2008). However, this perspective is not representative of most reliable sources on the subject.

Although intelligent design proponents do not name the designer, they make it clear that the designer is the Abrahamic god.

In drafts of the 1989 high-school level textbook Of Pandas and People, almost all derivations of the word "creation", such as "creationism", were replaced with the words "intelligent design".

Taken together, the Kitzmiller ruling, statements of ID's main proponents, the nature of ID itself, and the history of the movement, make it clear—Discovery Institute's protestations to the contrary notwithstanding—that ID is a form of creationism, modified to appear more secular than it really is. This is in line with the Discovery Institute's stated strategy in the Wedge Document. Q2: Should ID be characterized as science? A2: The majority of scientists state that ID should not be characterized as science. This was the finding of Judge Jones during the Kitzmiller hearing, and is a position supported by the overwhelming majority of the scientific community. Scientists say that ID cannot be regarded as scientific theory because it is untestable even in principle. A scientific theory predicts the outcome of experiments. If the predicted outcome is not observed, the theory is false. There is no experiment which can be constructed which can disprove intelligent design. Unlike a true scientific theory, it has absolutely no predictive capability. It doesn't run the risk of being disproved by objective experiment. Q3: Should the article cite any papers about ID? A3: According to Misplaced Pages's sourcing policy, Misplaced Pages:Verifiability, papers that support ID should be used as primary sources to explain the nature of the concept.

The article as it stands does not cite papers that support ID because no such papers have been published in peer-reviewed scientific journals. Behe himself admitted this under cross examination, during the Kitzmiller hearings, and this has been the finding of scientists and critics who have investigated this claim. In fact, the only article published in a peer-reviewed scientific journal that made a case for intelligent design was quickly withdrawn by the publisher for having circumvented the journal's peer-review standards.

Broadly speaking, the articles on the Discovery Institute list all fail for any of four reasons:

  1. The journal has no credible editorial and peer-review process, or the process was not followed
  2. The journal is not competent for the subject matter of the article
  3. The article is not genuinely supportive of ID
  4. The article is published in a partisan ID journal such as PCID
If you wish to dispute the claim that ID has no support in peer-reviewed publications, then you will need to produce a reliable source that attests to the publication of at least one paper clearly supportive of ID that underwent rigorous peer-review in a journal on a relevant field. Q4: Is this article unfairly biased against ID? A4: There have been arguments over the years about the article's neutrality and concerns that it violates Misplaced Pages's neutral point of view policy. The NPOV policy does not require all points of view to be represented as equally valid, but it does require us to represent them. The policy requires that we present ID from the point of view of disinterested philosophers, biologists and other scientists, and that we also include the views of ID proponents and opponents. We should not present minority views as though they are majority ones, but we should also make sure the minority views are correctly described and not only criticized, particularly in an article devoted to those views, such as this one. Q5: Is the Discovery Institute a reliable source? A5: The Discovery Institute is a reliable primary source about its views on ID, though it should not be used as an independent secondary source.

The core mission of the Discovery Institute is to promote intelligent design. The end purpose is to duck court rulings that eliminated religion from the science classroom, by confusing people into conflating science and religion. In light of this, the Discovery Institute cannot be used as a reference for anything but their beliefs, membership and statements. Questionable sources, according to the sourcing policy, WP:V, are those with a poor reputation for fact-checking or with no editorial oversight, and should only be used in articles about themselves. Articles about such sources should not repeat any contentious claims the source has made about third parties, unless those claims have also been published by reliable sources.

See also: WP:RS and WP:V Q6: Are all formulations of intelligent design pseudoscience? Was William Paley doing pseudoscience when he argued that natural features should be attributed to "an intelligent and designing Creator"? A6: While the use of the phrase intelligent design in teleological arguments dates back to at least the 1700s, Intelligent Design (ID) as a term of art begins with the 1989 publication of Of Pandas and People. Intelligent design is classified as pseudoscience because its hypotheses are effectively unfalsifiable. Unlike Thomas Aquinas and Paley, modern ID denies its religious roots and the supernatural nature of its explanations. For an extended discussion about definitions of pseudoscience, including Intelligent Design, see Pigliucci, Massimo; Boudry, Maarten, eds. (2013), Philosophy of Pseudoscience: Reconsidering the Demarcation Problem, University of Chicago, ISBN 978-0-226-05179-6. Notes and references
  1. ^ Phillip Johnson: "Our strategy has been to change the subject a bit so that we can get the issue of Intelligent Design, which really means the reality of God, before the academic world and into the schools." Johnson 2004. Christianity.ca. Let's Be Intelligent About Darwin. "This isn't really, and never has been a debate about science. It's about religion and philosophy." Johnson 1996. World Magazine. Witnesses For The Prosecution. "So the question is: "How to win?" That's when I began to develop what you now see full-fledged in the "wedge" strategy: "Stick with the most important thing"—the mechanism and the building up of information. Get the Bible and the Book of Genesis out of the debate because you do not want to raise the so-called Bible-science dichotomy. Phrase the argument in such a way that you can get it heard in the secular academy and in a way that tends to unify the religious dissenters. That means concentrating on, "Do you need a Creator to do the creating, or can nature do it on its own?" and refusing to get sidetracked onto other issues, which people are always trying to do." Johnson 2000. Touchstone magazine. Berkeley's Radical An Interview with Phillip E. Johnson
  2. "I have built an intellectual movement in the universities and churches that we call The Wedge, which is devoted to scholarship and writing that furthers this program of questioning the materialistic basis of science."…"Now the way that I see the logic of our movement going is like this. The first thing you understand is that the Darwinian theory isn't true. It's falsified by all of the evidence and the logic is terrible. When you realize that, the next question that occurs to you is, well, where might you get the truth?"…"I start with John 1:1. In the beginning was the word. In the beginning was intelligence, purpose, and wisdom. The Bible had that right. And the materialist scientists are deluding themselves." Johnson 1999. Reclaiming America for Christ Conference. How the Evolution Debate Can Be Won
  3. Dembski: "Intelligent design is just the Logos theology of John's Gospel restated in the idiom of information theory," Touchstone Magazine. Volume 12, Issue4: July/August, 1999
  4. Wedge Document Discovery Institute, 1999.
    "embers of the national ID movement insist that their attacks on evolution aren't religiously motivated, but, rather, scientific in nature." … "Yet the express strategic objectives of the Discovery Institute; the writings, careers, and affiliations of ID's leading proponents; and the movement’s funding sources all betray a clear moral and religious agenda." Inferior Design Chris Mooney. The American Prospect, August 10, 2005.
  5. "ID's rejection of naturalism in any form logically entails its appeal to the only alternative, supernaturalism, as a putatively scientific explanation for natural phenomena. This makes ID a religious belief." Expert Witness Report Barbara Forrest Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District, April 2005.
  6. Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District, 04 cv 2688 (December 20, 2005)., pp. 31 – 33.
  7. ^ Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District, 04 cv 2688 (December 20, 2005)., 4. Whether ID is Science, p. 87
  8. "Science and Policy: Intelligent Design and Peer Review". American Association for the Advancement of Science. 2007. Retrieved 2007-07-19.
  9. Brauer, Matthew J.; Forrest, Barbara; Gey, Steven G. (2005). "Is It Science Yet?: Intelligent Design Creationism and the Constitution" (PDF). Washington University Law Quarterly. 83 (1). Retrieved 2007-07-18. ID leaders know the benefits of submitting their work to independent review and have established at least two purportedly "peer-reviewed" journals for ID articles. However, one has languished for want of material and quietly ceased publication, while the other has a more overtly philosophical orientation. Both journals employ a weak standard of "peer review" that amounts to no more than vetting by the editorial board or society fellows.
  10. Isaak, Mark (2006). "Index to Creationist Claims". The TalkOrigins Archive. With some of the claims for peer review, notably Campbell and Meyer (2003) and the e-journal PCID, the reviewers are themselves ardent supporters of intelligent design. The purpose of peer review is to expose errors, weaknesses, and significant omissions in fact and argument. That purpose is not served if the reviewers are uncritical
  11. "Statement from the Council of the Biological Society of Washington". Biological Society of Washington. Retrieved 2007-07-19.
  12. See also Sternberg peer review controversy.
  13. Wilkins, John (9 November 2013), "The origin of "intelligent design" in the 18th and 19th centuries", Evolving Thoughts (blog)
  14. Matzke, Nick (2006), "Design on Trial: How NCSE Helped Win the Kitzmiller Case", Reports of the National Center for Science Education, 26 (1–2): 37–44
  15. "Report of John F. Haught, Ph. D" (PDF). Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District (NCSE). 2005-04-01. Retrieved 29 August 2013.


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Shorten the SD

The WP:Short description should be improved. One, the overall article is about the creationist argument. With this in mind we can describe ID as an "argument" and thereby give the potential reader the essence of the topic. But two, more importantly, "pseudoscientific" adds unnecessary POV. Would we be happy with an article title of Pseudoscientific arguments about the creation of the universe? No. But we do have various articles in Category:Cosmogony and Category:Physical cosmology. Would any of the articles benefit from SDs that said "Scientific argument about such & such"? Again, no. Let's just say that Intelligent design is an argument and leave out the unnecessary "pseudoscientific" adjective. – S. Rich (talk) 01:16, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

"'pseudoscientific' adds unnecessary POV". Can't see it myself. 'pseudoscientific' is used in the first sentence of the lede, so is clearly considered an integral NPOV element of the topic. As such, it merits inclusion in the SD; as WP:Short description says "These descriptions ... help users identify the desired article", so including 'pseudoscientific' functions to aid in identifying 'Intelligent design' as the article about the pseudoscientific argument. -- Jmc (talk) 01:44, 27 October 2022 (UTC)
I observe that the simple:Intelligent Design article on the simple English Misplaced Pages treats the subject drastically differently than this one and doesn't even mention pseudoscience. ~Anachronist (talk) 04:46, 27 October 2022 (UTC)
Misplaced Pages is not a reliable source. But maybe someone should change the simple:Intelligent Design article. I have experience there. Does one replace "pseudoscientific" by "stupid" or "wrong" to change it from English to Simple English? --Hob Gadling (talk) 05:21, 27 October 2022 (UTC)
This is not a question of RS for either WP or Simple WP. (No matter what, the Simple ID article must be NPOV. And changes to the Simple article are best discussed there.) I "simply" ask that we remove the POV-laden "pseudoscientific" from the short description in this regular WP article. – S. Rich (talk) 05:02, 28 October 2022 (UTC)
This is not a question of RS Yes it is. You were trying to change this Misplaced Pages article based on what another Misplaced Pages article says, so you were trying to use the other article as a source for this one. --Hob Gadling (talk) 05:17, 28 October 2022 (UTC)
If something is science and looks like science, one does not need to mention that it is science. That is the reason why the "scientific" adjective is not used.
Pseudoscience is something that pretends to be science, so it looks like science but it is not science. That is the reason why the "pseudoscientific" adjective is used. --Hob Gadling (talk)
My concern is about the POV vs. NPOV tone of the SD. We can describe the article as "an argument about ...." and avoid saying it is "arcane", "former", "inaccurate", "irrelevant", "dismissed in scientific circles", "hogwash", etc. The WP:SDAVOID guidance says "avoid 'former', 'retired', 'late', 'defunct', 'closed', etc.." Removing "pseudo" helps us comply with this guidance. – S. Rich (talk) 04:42, 28 October 2022 (UTC)
No, it does not. Calling a pseudoscience "pseudoscience" is perfectly NPOV when reliable sources consistently call it pseudoscience. I think you need to actually read WP:NPOV instead of just saying it. Also WP:FRINGE, WP:PSCI and WP:FALSEBALANCE.
Also, the logic "the rules say we should avoid X, therefore we should avoid Y" leaves something to be desired. --Hob Gadling (talk) 05:17, 28 October 2022 (UTC)
If the words "pseudoscience" or "pseudoscientific" are to be replaced, I do appreciate Hob's suggestion to use the words "stupid" or "wrong" instead. - Roxy the dog 06:46, 28 October 2022 (UTC)
@S. Rich You've failed to address the point I made in immediate response:
'pseudoscientific' is used in the first sentence of the lede, so is clearly considered an integral NPOV element of the topic. As such, 'pseudoscientific' merits inclusion in the SD; as WP:Short description says "These descriptions ... help users identify the desired article", so including 'pseudoscientific' functions to aid in identifying 'Intelligent design' as the article about the pseudoscientific argument.
You don't seem to have any issue with 'pseudoscientific' being used in the article itself, so your objection to it in the SD seems perverse. --Jmc (talk) 07:44, 28 October 2022 (UTC)
User:Srich32977 Can you put the existing SD alongside something proposed ? I am doubtful you will make headway for WP:SDLENGTH, but a definite comparison might at least get a focus back to about being shorter. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 07:21, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
I agree. The inclusion of the qualifier "pseudoscientific" is superfluous to the point that it reeks of bias.
I don't think it's a battle worth fighting.
Yes, the short description is… not short. Especially when you compare it to the length of the rest of the article. Further, some of its content is redundant with the body content.
But it's not just the first sentence that has a POV problem. The entire short description—nay, the whole article—is marred with bias to the point that it to me looks not salvageable. And even if it were, it seems that it's guarded by a group of ideologues: fanatics who will pile on their fallacious rhetoric until the hope is sucked dry from you by the tyranny of their majority. Emilimo (talk) 10:19, 11 April 2023 (UTC)
Yup, the tyranny of WP:BESTSOURCES. <sarcasm warning>How sad!</sarcasm warning> tgeorgescu (talk) 11:43, 11 April 2023 (UTC)
Straw Man. I am not criticizing WP:BESTSOURCES. When I say tyranny of the majority (which I definitely feel is happening on a large scale around discussion of this topic) I'm criticizing use of specific rhetorical devices and fallacious reasoning such as (but not limited to) argumentum ad populum and secondary implications such as groupthink, overconfidence in conventional wisdom and secular orthodoxy, false sense of inerrancy, and myriad intellectual vices such as appeal to ridicule which you just used on me with your sarcasm.
I'm not without hypocrisy; I admit my previous comment used blatant ad hominem attack. But just because I indulged in intellectual vice for a moment doesn't invalidate my sentiment.
A new article need to be written about what ID really is at a fundamental level—a theory of the origin of life—outside of and disconnected from its social contexts. Emilimo (talk) 13:02, 11 April 2023 (UTC)
It isn't a scientific theory. Not even a scientific hypothesis. Because nobody took care to formulate it as a cogent scientific hypothesis. Phillip E. Johnson died without knowing the hypothesis of intelligent design. tgeorgescu (talk) 13:09, 11 April 2023 (UTC)
That sounds like an appeal to ignorance. The theory is not valid because there hasn't been a person who has put it in a form that acceptable to you and the consensus/majority? Who is the authority on what constistutes a "cogent scientific hypothesis"? Why would we need Phillip E. Johnson to come back to life and do it for us? How do you know one is not already out there? Emilimo (talk) 13:35, 11 April 2023 (UTC)
Wait you got me on another red herring there; I never claimed it to be a scientific theory. Which is why I think there needs to be a page presenting it without any claims of it being a scientific theory, similar to the page on the Big Bang. Just because I am suggesting the theory—in and of itself—as not scientific does not mean that it is pseudoscience. On the contrary it would arguably call for it to be, by definition of pseudoscience, no longer labeled as pseudoscience. You don't see the Big Bang theory labeled as pseudoscience. As should be the case with ID. Emilimo (talk) 13:45, 11 April 2023 (UTC)
Big Bang, despite your protestations, is a widely-accepted scientific theory. For the metaphysical correspondent of ID, see Teleological argument. That, my friend, is a bona fide philosophical argument, but alas it has nothing to do with science. tgeorgescu (talk) 13:49, 11 April 2023 (UTC)
That sounds like an appeal to ignorance Oh, the irony. ID itself is one huge heap of appeal to ignorance ("I tried to find a way how evolution can make things like X, and I failed"; insert every biological feature for X); it does not have any actual content beyond that. And that is the very reason why ID is no scientific hypothesis. You are talking to people with lots of experience debating "Cdesign proponentsists", and every time one asks one of them for the theory of ID, one gets crickets.
How do you know one is not already out there? The burden of proof is on the person who claims that it exists. Bring it here, and everybody will be baffled, stunned, and surprised.
Independent of that, this is not a forum. Your claim of bias is commonplace for every article about any pseudoscience - see WP:YWAB - and does not impress anybody. --Hob Gadling (talk) 15:09, 11 April 2023 (UTC)
Sources are sometimes bias as well. Given that it is a controversial topic we should add further in the article that "it is considered by most scientists a pseudoscientific argument" given the right sources, but not in the opening paragraph. Is like if someone made the opening paragraph of Gender pay gap to be "The gender pay gap or gender wage gap is the ALLEGEDLY difference between the remuneration for men and women who are working." - Barumbarumba (talk) 23:39, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
The thing is, all pro-Intelligent Design sources are notoriously unreliable, and "unbiased sources" are invariably accused and denounced as being negatively biased due to accurately describing Intelligent Design as religiously-inspired, anti-science flimflam. Mr Fink (talk) 00:00, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
I fully agree with you. Since the professional editors of the Encyclopedia Britannica didn't consider it appropriate to apply the label "pseudoscientific" to ID theory, it seems reasonable to avoid that in order to preserve neutrality. The better approach would be to neutrally include the statement by the US National Academy of Science saying that it isn't a legitimate scientific theory. I would argue that the term 'pseudoscience' is appropriately applied to theories like Flat Earth. Because ID has support from a number of scientists with relevant educational backgrounds, I believe it is more accurately categorized as 'fringe science' or 'questionable science' prominent supporters of ID include: award winning chemist Dr. Henry F. Schaefer III, professor of biochemistry Dr. Michael Behe, and Microbiology professor Dr. Scott Minnich. Further, a 2018 Pew Poll of members of the American Association for the Advancement of Science found that 2% of members believed humans had always existed in their present form, and another 8% believed that human evolution was guided by a supreme being. BeLikeBritannica (talk) 20:43, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
Read the FAQ. --Hob Gadling (talk) 12:57, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
I created an account just to agree and complain about the rampant and abhorrent bias and POV narration in the article. While I do not subscribe to the belief myself, the rampant author judgments within is disgustingly transparent and, if I can be crass, immature and embarrassing to read to someone looking for information on the subject. When you have editors like Hob Gadling or Roxy the Dog using charged language like "stupid" to describe belief systems, it worsens the content of the site and makes this article read like the tangents of a lonely Redditor upset that they had to go to Sunday school when they were eight, rather than a source of information.
For comparison's sake, the article on Scientology reserves such personal judgments, attributing labels of ingenuity and falsehood to third parties, not from the author's own original judgments. Similar belief systems are treated with more respect, but this one is marred entirely because of its prevalence in western culture.
Such impartial author viewpoints are rampant throughout the article. A few keypoints of contention I noticed from a cursory search include the tangent of the Discovery Institution (cited from someone saying they're "a leader" because several members of the movement are "associated," as if there's any other article out there that pulls such vague weasel wording. To air out dirty laundry, it's very apparent that this is for the purpose of associating the article with conservative think tanks as a prelude, rather than as a detail later on in the history of the article, where such information should be placed). The line "Detailed scientific examination has rebutted several examples for which evolutionary explanations are claimed to be impossible." strikes me too (the preceding claims should be included in a summary, with these examinations placed in a proceeding criticism section. Such is the norm for most articles, but this one gets an exception because the editors REALLY want everyone to know their takes on it). "The Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District court ruling held the latter to be the case." line is out of place and only contextualized by scouring the references and notes before when this should have its own section, the line itself following what reads like original research on the dilemma of what the belief states. The article itself is littered with details that add very little ("A Discovery Institute report says that Charles B. Thaxton, editor of Pandas, had picked the phrase up from a NASA scientist, and thought, "That's just what I need, it's a good engineering term."") There is a separate article for that book; include the information there! In the section on concepts of the belief system, while generally more well-constructed, it still has its fair share of issues. The paragraph of "Critics point out that the irreducible complexity" is vague in referring to whom these critics are, which is embarrassing when the section on Specified complexity does this tactic of citing a vague "scientific community" correctly. The "Fine-tuned universe" paragraph has only one citation, and it doesn't even link to anything! The distinction of the ideology from the movement is made too little too late for how the article presents the relevance of the Discovery Institution...
I could go on, but I have a feeling the people responsible for the poor state of the article have their heels dug in so deeply that they will refuse to acknowledge the myriad of problems within the article, so I'll abridge my grievances: the article is absolutely filled with author judgments more concerned with refuting the subject rather than presenting a clean, readable text, and as a result the article is filled with poor citations, clunky and out-of-place details, and an astonishing amount of frontloaded bloat. It has been an absolute chore to read this thing.
I know this is going to be taken in bad faith to be misconstrued as "remove all criticism from the article," which is absolutely not backed up by anything I just said, so let me repeat that's not what I'm asking. I'm asking that the few people with self-restraint here actually structure the article to read like something trying to give an overview of the subject foremost, criticisms debunkings and all, in a clean, readable manner, and not like it was written foremost as a sloppy blog entry wearing the skin of an encyclopedia.
OldManYellsAtClouds (talk) 20:56, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
ID is a paragon of pseudoscience, according to WP:BESTSOURCES, and we have the website policy WP:PSCI.
About Scientology: we don't say that because that is a matter of judging intentions rather than judging facts. tgeorgescu (talk) 21:09, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
I would implore you to actually read the post you're replying to.
I do not care about validity of the subject matter (though I do think the "pseudoscience" label could benefit from a citation and end a lot of talk on this page if added, since one thing I keep seeing while reading posts here is that there's apparently a lot of sources calling it one). I'm discussing the poor state in which this article is written because it's entirely from people foremost interested in taking the ideology down a peg thinking they have article ownership and loading it with original research, to a point that it reads worse than other infamous pseudoscience topics. Similar articles have clear and lengthy sections for criticisms and debunkings that serve just fine. This one opts to make a massive mess of the subject. It's a badly written article.
You can agree or disagree with the subject, but from an objective point of view the article is a mess. If I find the energy/time, I'll clean up a lot of my grievances myself.
OldManYellsAtClouds (talk) 22:10, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
The tone can get copy/edited. But the fact that it is patent pseudoscience should remain inside the article, very clearly and unambiguously expressed. In that respect we have no choice, since website policy is binding. tgeorgescu (talk) 22:16, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
The tone can get copy/edited. But the fact that it is patent pseudoscience should remain inside the article
For probably the third time now, I don't give a crap about that label. I would even agree that it should be there if it was sourced. My problem is the article is poorly written. I have given several examples demonstrating this, please actually read those instead of arguing against a point nobody is making.
OldManYellsAtClouds (talk) 22:48, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
Okay, to the point: criticism sections are dissuaded. Criticism should be spread inside the article, refuting each point being made by the pseudoscientists.
In other words: the fact that this article does not have a criticism section is a net positive, and the articles which do aren't good examples to imitate. tgeorgescu (talk) 23:02, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
Criticism should be spread inside the article, refuting each point being made by the pseudoscientists.
Do you have a policy you can point to that illustrates that to be the case? This is one of the only articles I have seen on the site whose reading goes out of its way to meticulously try to debunk everything stated within it. This type of writing isn't employed in many other religious articles if at all, and reads choppy and unfocused.
OldManYellsAtClouds (talk) 01:24, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
Misplaced Pages:Criticism#Avoid sections and articles focusing on criticisms or controversies. tgeorgescu (talk) 02:05, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
While I do honestly appreciate the attempt at giving a policy, the subject of this page should fall under an exception mentioned:
"For topics about a particular point of view – such as philosophies (Idealism, Naturalism, Existentialism), political outlooks (Capitalism, Marxism), or religion (Islam, Christianity, Atheism) – it will usually be appropriate to have a "Criticism" section or "Criticism of ..." subarticle. Integrating criticism into the main article can cause confusion because readers may misconstrue the critical material as representative of the philosophy's outlook, the political stance, or the religion's tenets."
In the case of this article, there are several instances where this kind of information is haphazardly placed about because of the lack of refrain. I listed one in the article trying to link the subject to a conservative think tank, but there are more.
OldManYellsAtClouds (talk) 02:47, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
ID is propagated by a Christian conservative think-tank. It's not some accidental detail of it, it is so by design. tgeorgescu (talk) 03:24, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
The section as worded reads like a clear violation of WP:AWW. A stronger relationship than "The leading proponents of ID are associated with" should be provided, and this information should be listed in the section regarding the movement. While the information is important to include, in its current state it's not important enough to include in the opening section, much less before the early history of the ideology before YECs.
OldManYellsAtClouds (talk) 03:50, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
Let me tell you something: the people who hate mainstream science already got the message that Misplaced Pages is against them. So, we're writing for a certain audience, not for everybody.
Our bias is not concealed. People who love Misplaced Pages, love it for such bias. tgeorgescu (talk) 05:11, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
This is an open encyclopedia, not your personal blog. I don't give a crap what windmill-tilting you seem to think is being waged against a couple hundred creationist nutjobs, the article is written like crap and I've given several clear examples and policies that showcase very specific examples.
OldManYellsAtClouds (talk) 17:37, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

@OldManYellsAtClouds Rather than yell at clouds, it'd be better to positively address issues. Here's a small example with a big issue behind it: you say, "The "Fine-tuned universe" paragraph has only one citation, and it doesn't even link to anything!". The reason it (and many pseudo-links like it) doesn't link to anything is the big issue and it needs someone with your energy to address it. -- Jmc (talk) 03:19, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

While I do appreciate the invitation, and will probably take it up when I have more time on my hands, un
Judging byIsome of the rather... let's say "brash adamancy" of some of the regulars on this talk page i. I worry that such radical changes such as removing that problematic paragraph and rearranging the criticisms into a cleaner format would be misconstrued as trying to hide or mitigate criticisms against the subject matter. Rather than risk a one-sided edit war, it would be better for the people adding these text to just provide a proper citation and not make the article a complete mess.both carrying the article's current style, I suspect I may need to take your advice regardless.
OldManYellsAtClouds (talk) 03:36, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
As the article is protected, I'm working at a proposed rewrite that cleans up some of the grievances I have with the page on my userpage. As of writing I have the introductory paragraph glanced at. If you're not being coy, I'd like honest feedback on my proposed changes.
OldManYellsAtClouds (talk) 18:10, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
The introduction of an article contains the summary of the body of that article. So, unless the version you are proposing is very closed from the current version, any new introduction not properly summarizing the current version of the article is likely to be a non starter. --McSly (talk) 19:09, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
So, unless the version you are proposing is very closed from the current version
It is, just a tad more streamlined, cleaned, and worded more impartially. I left commentary, including two explicit requests for citations.
OldManYellsAtClouds (talk) 19:43, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
You are requesting a citation for "pseudoscience". But no citation is given, according to WP:CITELEAD. So, yes, there is a reason why no citation is given.
I saw the changes you advocate for: the changes are minor, and often not compliant with WP:PAGs. About impartiality, see WP:FALSEBALANCE.
Also, I don't see why WP:RS should be provided for a hidden comment. tgeorgescu (talk) 00:26, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
You are requesting a citation for "pseudoscience". But no citation is given, according to WP:CITELEAD. So, yes, there is a reason why no citation is given.
I believe the exceptions listed in MOS:CITELEAD are applicable here, given how contentious the label has been in these talk pages, and from the opening sentence of the article itself having five citations within it. Moving the fifth reference to specifically address the pseudoscience label adds no new citations to the lead and satisfies my complaint with that particular point. I ask in my suggestions for someone to provide a source since (1) I believe there may be a more readily-available source that could be used in its place, and (2) I typed it on mobile and don't like using the article editor for more than basic formatting.
I saw the changes you advocate for: the changes are minor, and often not compliant with WP:PAGs. About impartiality, see WP:FALSEBALANCE.
I'm tempted to evoke WP:SARC here, as "and often not compliant with WP:PAGs" is possibly one of the most vague and thus irrelevant complaints that could be levied. I ask for forgiveness in being heated for a moment; the idea that a simple cleanup to the article, a cleanup in which I've not added anything to even hint at the validity of ID and attempted to avoid WP:POVDELETION by retaining criticisms except in cases where it would be better to move information, is even remotely the same thing as trying to make a false balance is overly simplistic and a tad insulting. Misplaced Pages is not obliged to validate pseudoscience, I can agree and don't think either of us said otherwise, but it's also not a place for authors to engage against the subject (much less focus on discrediting fringe theories) to make it a messy read or use the notion of bias existing to go on tangents about the subject in ways that harm the objective tone and pacing of the article.
The thing that really gets me scratching my head about all of this is that the sources and facts are against ID, so making a clearer article helps ID proponents none.
OldManYellsAtClouds (talk) 06:43, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
WP:FALSEBALANCE was a reply to more impartially. You proposed minor edits, so I don't see those as either cleanup of the article or making the article more impartial. This all debate seems therefore as much ado about nothing. tgeorgescu (talk) 07:12, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
WP:FALSEBALANCE was a reply to more impartially
I never asked for more impartiality, I described this as a perk of the cleanup. Please follow the conversation.
You proposed minor edits, so I don't see those as either cleanup of the article or making the article more impartial.
I'll ignore the non-sequitur in that and reassert the context of what's happening: I am pulling teeth against a user who thinks WP:NOOBJECTIVITY means an author should argue against the subject of an article, and am being met with resistance for miniscule cleanups in the opening paragraphs. I would go through cleaning up the entire thing for its other myriad issues, but lack any trust that such exhaustive efforts would be met with anything besides someone violating WP:OWNER.
This debate being "for nothing" can be amswered with one question: what is going to happen if I try to get even those simple cleanups in the lead put in? I hope, in that front, I'd have made a stink for nothing.
OldManYellsAtClouds (talk) 07:28, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
Well, friend, I'm only one editor, so I never decide myself the WP:CONSENSUS.
WP:NOOBJECTIVITY is an essay, meaning it is neither policy, nor guideline. WP:PSCI on the other hand is website policy. So, obviously, website policy trumps an essay. tgeorgescu (talk) 08:05, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
Well, friend, I'm only one editor, so I never decide myself the WP:CONSENSUS.
I'm really interested in what conversation you're having in which you're debating if ID is pseudoscience.
It seriously is grating to read so many replies from you that fail to address even one point being brought up and instead go after some paranoia.
WP:NOOBJECTIVITY is an essay, meaning it is neither policy, nor guideline.
That argument is on-par with the "evolution is just a theory" sound bite creationists love. summarizes a policy which reads "which means representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, all the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic."
Emphasis mine. Meanwhile you're on here justifying an article littered with WP:OR with "Our bias is not concealed. People who love Misplaced Pages, love it for such bias." I
WP:PSCI on the other hand is website policy
Is anyone here arguing that ID isn't pseudoscience?
OldManYellsAtClouds (talk) 19:33, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
WP:PSCI requires a certain tone of the article. While you admit that ID is pseudoscience, you seek to soften the tone of the article. E.g. downplaying that it is essentially a movement propagated by a conservative Christian think tank. And that it caters to fundamentalist Christians and evangelicals, since Catholics and mainline Protestants made peace with the theory of evolution. And that instead of seeking to discover new objective facts in biology, it is essentially a ploy to introduce God in sciences, i.e. despite the boundaries established by Immanuel Kant, who said he had to deny knowledge in order to make room for faith. tgeorgescu (talk) 21:21, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
WP:PSCI requires a certain tone of the article
I do not believe you are meeting that tone. You are going beyond meeting explaining that the content of the article is wrong and are more focused on a personal mission to debate everything within it with Original Research. There's several instances where you're barely citing scientific experts or explaining that the counterarguments come from these experts.
  • "A sufficiently succinct summary of the argument from design shows its unscientific, circular, and thereby illogical reasoning" <-- This is your conclusion presented without a source
  • "Whether this lack of specificity about the designer's identity in public discussions is a genuine feature of the concept – or just a posture taken to avoid alienating those who would separate religion from the teaching of science – has been a matter of great debate between supporters and critics of intelligent design. The Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District court ruling held the latter to be the case." <-- Debated by whom? This is the closing paragraph of a section, not the beginning summary. Don't just reference the court ruling in-sentence either, put its verdict at the end and cite the case.
  • "Variations on the phrase appeared in Young Earth creationist publications (...) there in the first place."" <-- Move source 34 earlier, since there's a clear split in the paragraph where it stops referencing material from it and starts referencing material from 33.
  • "Critics point out that the irreducible complexity argument assumes that the necessary parts of a system have always been necessary and therefore could not have been added sequentially." <-- I don't have anything suggesting needing fixed here, I want to point out that this paragraph is mostly good. The vague "critics" is part of the introduction, but even it's cited, and later on it starts giving names with specific arguments. This is good. This is how the article should read. There's a lot of sections that read like this, and I feel as if it would be unfair to leave them unrecognized.
  • "Irreducible complexity has remained a popular argument among advocates of intelligent design;" <--- I say the paragraph is "mostly" good because of this line. This should be reworded or removed. It doesn't help the proceeding explicitly cited debunking, and it is redundant. You are presenting this idea first in the argument list. Narratively, this weight assumes that it's a popular argument (avoid weasel words too).
There are more examples, but I wish to move on. — Preceding unsigned comment added by OldManYellsAtClouds (talk • contribs) 14:08, 19 September 2024 (UTC)
While you admit that ID is pseudoscience
This statement reads as if you're proposing that everyone who agrees with the scientific community should be okay with the sloppy article, which is ridiculous. It's entirely possible to be objective about a topic known to be false, and to criticize an article on the subject for its shortcomings.
you seek to soften the tone of the article (...)
It is apparent you are not reading my posts, and came in here with a preconceived notion that everyone critical of the article's writing and structure must be a proponent of ID, and no amount of reasoning or given examples of the article's shortcomings will convince you otherwise.
Get this through your head. Sit down and read this slowly, multiple times if needed: I am not arguing about the validity of ID. I am addressing the writing of a poorly-constructed Misplaced Pages article.
It's as if you think not including the sources of these statement would make anyone susceptible to believing ID. When a lot of people see articles like this one, argumentized takedowns that use your own wording more than the scientific community's, they see someone with a personal grudge about the ideology and want to know why it made them so mad, and end up looking into it. Having names behind the statements make the content stronger and more reliable, which hurts ID more.
Instead of squabbling with you further, I'm going to begin making some minor edits to the article to fix some of these myriad issues.
OldManYellsAtClouds (talk) 14:07, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

Pseudoscience? Creationism?

Sir Fred Hoyle, staunch lifelong atheist - "hard" atheist -in his Omni Lecture at the Royal Institution, London, January 12th, 1982, had this to say: “The difference between an intelligent ordering, whether of words, fruit boxes, amino acids, or the Rubik cube, and merely random shufflings can be fantastically large, even as large as a number that would fill the whole volume of Shakespeare’s plays with its zeros. So if one proceeds directly and straightforwardly in this matter, without being deflected by a fear of incurring the wrath of scientific opinion, one arrives at the conclusion that biomaterials with their amazing measure of order must be the outcome of intelligent design. No other possibility I have been able to think of in pondering this issue over quite a long time seems to me to have anything like as high a possibility of being true.” 2601:404:CB83:D50:44C8:EE37:6741:1F40 (talk) 23:30, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

Please read the FAQ at the top of the page. You could also take a look at Argument from incredulity. --McSly (talk) 23:49, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
See WP:NOTAFORUM and WP:SOAPBOX--Mr Fink (talk) 00:12, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
Also see Hoyle's fallacy. -- Jmc (talk) 00:29, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
And WP:RS and WP:OR. Your own thinking, as any other user's, isn't worth shit here. --Hob Gadling (talk) 08:52, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
I don't see a proposed edit in IP, but the FAQ does not include Hoyle since the article does not. Seems reasonable to discuss if Hoyle *should* be mentioned as a precursor in this article or at Specified complexity. The article does mention Paley which is far distant past and not as direct a link nor related to the ID concepts expressed in this article. I easily found reasonable cites in the history of ID that 'the term Intelligent design appears to have been coined from Hoyle and Horrigan', and a prominent criticism referring to specified complexity as a 'variant of Hoyle and Wickramasinghe's old claim' (about the probability of a tornado assembling a Concorde) -- so having a mention of the precursor and wikilink to Junkyard tornado seems reasonable. But p-value use of probability common in scientific studies (although commonly problematic) is more the see-also wikilink than Argument from incredulity since presenting details of method and calculation is not properly termed "incredulity". So -- mention Hoyle here, in SC, or not at all ???? Cheers Markbassett (talk) 16:08, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
It's important not to conflate the argument from design with intelligent design. The argument from design posits that only an intelligence could have created the universe. Intelligent design OTOH posits that the argument from design is a scientific one and also that it can be bolstered through scientific research.
So Hoyle did not endorse ID. TFD (talk) 16:29, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
TFD - That the article does conflate the argument from design with intelligent design is a different topic than the question of whether to mention Fred Hoyle as a precursor - perhaps in the "Origin of the concept" or the "Fine-tuned universe" sections. And to the contrary, Hoyle is listed as a supporter of ID -- though again the question was whether to note him as a precursor, either here or at Specified complexity. To be precise the 'support' means as a precursor he preceded the Intelligent design movement by a few years with his own ideas of life on Earth came from outer space, the argument of improbability and use of Information theory (similar to Specified complexity), his creating the Junkyard tornado metaphor, plus remarks about Fine-tuned universe, etcetera. His 1983 book The Intelligent Universe "Examines the origins of life on earth, analyzes the Darwinian theory of evolution, and argues that life is the result of a deliberate plan." The 'support' does not mean he was a member of Discovery institute and as far as I've googled he made no comment at all about the IDM or court case -- at least nothing as famous as his originating the above concepts. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 15:24, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
It's more accurate to say that ID advocates claim him as a precursor. TFD (talk) 17:52, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
TFD - so to check, are you answering the question with a yes, that the article mention Hoyle and phrase it 'ID advocates claim him as a precursor' ? Cheers Markbassett (talk) 20:20, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
No, not unless reliable secondary sources routinely mention that ID supporters claim him as a forerunner. And even if they do, it doesn't give us licence to copy the quote above. The purpose of the article is to describe ID based on how it is reported in reliable sources, not to engage in advocating it. TFD (talk) 20:52, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
TFD - understood, although I hope you mean Third-party sources and WP:WEIGHT. The ID proponents are obviously RS for what ID proponents say, as 'ID advocates claim him as a precursor' is objective fact. Second-party would be anti-ID such as NCSE and hence not reliable for what ID claims nor for WP:WEIGHT. Third-party would be outside reporting such as USnews.com - though I only see they reporting it as fact, not ‘ID advocates claim’ e.g.
The term "intelligent design" appears to have been coined in its contemporary scientific usage by the atheist cosmologist Dr. Fred Hoyle, who in 1982 argued that "if one proceeds directly and straightforwardly in this matter, without being deflected by a fear of incurring the wrath of scientific opinion, one arrives at the conclusion that biomaterials with their amazing measure of order must be the outcome of intelligent design." The term "intelligent design" was also used by non-scientist James E. Horigan in his 1979 book Chance or Design? where Horigan used the term "intelligent design" and framed his argument as an empirical one, "without resort to biblical or other religious references," and without investigating questions about "ultimate purpose." Cheers Markbassett (talk) 16:58, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
To assert that USnews.com is reporting it as fact seems a claim too far. It appears in a guest blog by a creationist who begins his post thus: "Most Darwinists involved in the public debate today have one, and only one goal: To stifle free debate on this subject and thereby discourage you, the public, from scrutinizing the scientific evidence for yourself." -- Jmc (talk) 18:44, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
Jmc well, among all the googles I had missed that header -- so the USnews.com quote is showing one example of ID advocates saying Hoyle was a precursor and their mentioning the objective fact that "intelligent design" was a term Hoyle used a few years before. Anyway -- do you have a position about the question of how or if to mention Hoyle in article ? Cheers Markbassett (talk) 21:16, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
ID proponents are not RS for what ID proponents say, because each one is expressing his own opinion, not speaking as a spokesman for the movement.
The fact that Fred Hoyle put the words intelligent and design together in the 1960s doesn't mean he was advocating a belief system that developed decades later.
I don't know why you keep pushing this. Of course some things we cannot explain could be caused by ghosts. But that's beyond the realm of scientific enquiry. TFD (talk) 06:29, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
TFD Clearly what was published and that IDM mentions Hoyle of the 1980s is objective fact, the question was how or if to mention Hoyle as a precursor in article, which you have already responded to. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 15:03, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

Hi Mark, you seem to be trolling and/or trying to synthesise an argument using primary or unreliable sources. Don't. . . dave souza, talk 22:46, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

dave souza Hi Dave. I am asking a simple and obvious question — taking note of the IP (which indeed is objective fact and appears fairly commonly mentioned in IDM) to ask if Hoyle should be mentioned as a precursor in this article or at Specified complexity. I would prefer if a simple edit question could be easier with simple edit answers, but I suppose any controversial topic has this kind of difficulty of lots of off-question replies. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 15:19, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
Per weight, Hoyle only belongs in the article if mentioned in reliable secondary sources about ID. As WP:FRINGE says, "Points that are not discussed in independent sources should not be given any space in articles."
ID proponents would obviously have us believe that Hoyle endorsed their views. If he did, it would give them respectability. We would need a reliable secondary source to comment on that. TFD (talk) 16:19, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
To summarize a conclusion to this subthread: There seems no interest and not much attention to the question, so Hoyle remarks exist and are said by IDM as coining the term "Intelligent Design" they later used, but the conclusion is to not include any mention. The thread question was not whether Hoyle endorsed ID, the question was more whether Hoyle should be mentioned as a precursor. The probability argument quoted by IP and/or Hoyle's use of the term "intelligent designer" seemed candidates for note either here or at Specified complexity. Hoyle notably had a probability argument against abiogenesis (Junkyard tornado) although that was more generally for advocating cosmic panspermia (Psuedo-panspermia), such as in the 1982 book 'Evolution in Space', rather than an intelligent designer of Directed panspermia. Anyway, thanks for what input there was and over & out. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 18:28, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Intelligent design as an argument for Gods existence?

The irony has already peaked with the initial comment and been explained with the response. Risking further irony levels would be reckless and might result in injuries as hapless Wikipedians hurt their ribs laughing at this complaint. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 14:12, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I have to wonder if the people writing this have a hidden agenda. ID proponents have never asserted who the designer is--it could be an Alien for all we know. The introductory sentence is very clearly biased and should be rewritten to be historically neutral. Intelligent design proper is a (pseudo)scientific theory that attempts to demonstrate that certain biological systems can be more adequately explained by theories of design. It is false to say that the theory is meant to prove God's existence--that is the philosophical argument from design. While I doubt the editors here are intellectually honest enough to change this, it is the truth. This article serves as proof as to why Misplaced Pages is an unreliable source for unbiased information. 104.158.206.172 (talk) 12:54, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

cdesign proponentsists did not do a very good job of hiding their agenda, trying to mask the teaching of creationism in US public schools behind a facade of "intelligent design". See Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District for how a US federal court dealt with this "breathtaking inanity". Just plain Bill (talk) 13:35, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Intelligent Design and the Law

Got a link to this from Academia, it's online as linked below, an article in Penn State Law Review Volume 113, Number 3, Winter 2008. An informative overview, a long read. Possibly a useful source, but think we've already covered the points it make. . . dave souza, talk 21:06, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

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