Misplaced Pages

Latest revision as of 14:40, 20 July 2018

Anyone, whether directly involved or not, may add evidence to this page. Please make a header for your evidence and sign your comments with your name.

When placing evidence here, please be considerate of the arbitrators and be concise. Long, rambling, or stream-of-conciousness rants are not helpful.

As such, it is extremely important that you use the prescribed format. Submitted evidence should include a link to the actual page diff; links to the page itself are not sufficient. For example, to cite the edit by Mennonot to the article Anomalous phenomenon adding a link to Hundredth Monkey use this form: .

This page is not for general discussion - for that, see talk page.

Please make a section for your evidence and add evidence only in your own section. Please limit your evidence to a maximum 1000 words and 100 diffs, a much shorter, concise presentation is more likely to be effective. Please focus on the issues raised in the complaint and answer and on diffs which illustrate behavior which relates to the issues.

If you disagree with some evidence you see here, please cite the evidence in your own section and provide counter-evidence, or an explanation of why the evidence is misleading. Do not edit within the evidence section of any other user.

Be aware that the Arbitrators may at times rework this page to try to make it more coherent. If you are a participant in the case or a third party, please don't try to refactor the page, let the Arbitrators do it. If you object to evidence which is inserted by other participants or third parties please cite the evidence and voice your objections within your own section of the page. It is especially important to not remove evidence presented by others. If something is put in the wrong place, please leave it for the arbitrators to move.

Evidence presented by {your user name}

<day1> <month>_<month>-Evidence_presented_by_{your_user_name}">

• <timestamp1>
  • What happened.

• <timestamp2>
  • What happened.

• <timestamp3>
  • What happened.

<day2> <month>_<month>-Evidence_presented_by_{your_user_name}">

• <timestamp1>
  • What happened.

• <timestamp2>
  • What happened.

• <timestamp3>
  • What happened.

Evidence presented by Petaholmes

5 February

• 01:12, 5 Feb 2005
  • Skyring makes edits to Governor-General of Australia that reflect his POV. They are reverted by User:Adam Carr. Edit waring on page between Skyring and User:Dlatimer over the inclusion and interpretation of passages of the constitution continues until the page is protected on Feburary 14. After protection is was dePOVed again following edits by Skyring by User:Lacrimosus on March 9.

27 February

• 06:01, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC),
  • Skyring tries to introduce the idea that Australia is a republic to the Government of Australia article. This is by no means a conventional opinion, Adam and User:Skyring engage in revert war on the 27th. Adam appears to win after 4 reverts, there is a discussion on the talk page about Skyring trying to introduce original research.

28 February

• 04:39, 28 Feb 2005
  • Skyring makes changes to the artilce that had he had discussed in December that were shot down at the time as a minority view. He asserts that opinion is divided on who is the Australian Head of State (HoS). Edits are reverted by User:Ta bu shi da yu

• 23:28, 2 Mar 2005
  • Adam Carr rewrites a section of the article to accomodate constititutional debate about the Australian HoS.

• 00:44, 3 Mar 2005
  • Skyring and Adam revert war over the sentence, question of who is Australia's head of state is a matter of convention, Skyring changes convention to contention 3 times.

• 13:55, 4 Mar 2005
  • Page is protected by User:Jnc, protection is removed on March 9.

11 March

• 05:11, 11 Mar 2005
  • Skyring adds the word proposals to the following sentence Some opponents of the referendum proposals argued that the goal of, he and User:Michael Snow engage in successive reverts. He claims that his change is supported by concensus on the talk page, it does not appear to be. Adam removes the section entirely.

29 March

• 23:41, 29 Mar 2005
  • Skyring asserts that the Australia has a republican government (original research) on Republic. Edits reverted by User:SimonP. Following 3 reverts the text is removed.

17 May

• 22:26, 17 May 2005
  • Skyring changes HoS to monarch, and makes significant changes to the text. He and User: El C engage in revert war. Adam later reverts to a version prior to the changes

• 00:55, 18 May 2005
  • User:Jtdirl makes an edit to artile based on fact. Skyring removes the new text and changed HoS to monarch again. More reverts ensue.

24 May

• 04:53, 24 May 2005
  • Skyring changes Queen of Austrlaia to British monarch, a poition that is incorrect. More circular discussion on the talk page, more reverts to the article, page is protected, and unprotected on the 29th.

13 June

• from 23:05, 12 Jun 2005, a few examples:
  • Skyring persues personal harassment of Jtdirl, reviewing all Jtdrils edits and making minor gramatical fixes, leaving edit summaries like Relieve some tortured language and A common pattern for this editor to produce poor English; your idea of "plain madness" is out of step with the reality, which is in itself a sign of madness. These summaries and talk page messages are a personal attacks and appear to have been performed for harassment. Many of Skyrings edits are reverted by Jtdirl, and some of the articles appear to have ongoing revert warring between the two parties.

• 11:11, 13 Jun 2005
  • Skyring leaves a message on Jtdirls talk page, here's a short section:

I've now seen enough of your work to be confident of two things:

1. Any article that you created and hasn't been worked on by others is going to be of low standard, and

2. You won't admit what is obvious to all.

This clearly violates WP:NPA.

• 13:33, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  • Skyring leaves messages on the talk pages of Adam Carr and El C and (also involved in this case) and User:Djegan criticising Jtdrils editing.

A general comment for the ArbCom, I think it would be a good idea to go through the talk archives of government of Australia (not necessarily in any detail) to see how frustrating it is for other edits to deal with Skyrings edits against concensus.--nixie 01:56, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I would echo the request to peruse Talk:Government of Australia and some the archived discussions there, particularly Archive 6. A number of experienced Misplaced Pages editors others than the ones listed (including myself) have familiarised ourself extensively with this issue. Skyring may be providing citations, but he is interpreting his sources in a way that no other editor supports, and seems to be more interested in argument than actually resolving the issue. --Robert Merkel 13:10, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I agree. I raised a court case on the talk page, which is universaly held by Constitutional lawyers and legal accademics, (except by Skyring) to once and for all recognise the separation of the Australian and Brittish Queens (even though being the same person) and Skyring somehow totally re-interpreted it and ignored everyone else. Xtra 01:27, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Evidence presented by Skyring

General

The talk archives of Government of Australia show that I take care to present the views of authorities on this subject, not my own, and that cites are provided for my article edits. The charges of original research and POV-pushing are unfounded.

This is a case of "Misplaced Pages-rage". User:Adam Carr gives the impression that he can abuse other editors freely, he need not provide sources, and he can whistle up help to enforce his threats and bullying. I showed a link to the Commonwealth's own hardcopy government directory describing the Governor-General as the Head of State. Adam gave a response demonstrating that he considers himself the ultimate authority. This view is unacceptable in a Misplaced Pages editor, as is the idea that truth is found by calling up shills and holding a vote.

The dispute centres on Adam's populist view that the Queen is Australia's sole head of state. There are three distinct views on this amongst constitutional scholars, with the Prime Minister and Professor George Winterton holding alternate views, and any edit stating that the Queen is the sole head of state is POV.

23 December 2004

• 00:26, 23 Dec 2004
  • Adam sums up his proposed debating stance: abuse and mindless reverts. He intends to defend the view that QE2 is the sole Australian head of state to the death.

27 February

• 16:47, 27 Feb 2005,
  • I add the fact that Australia is a republic, using the definition supplied in the Republic article, plus several respected dictionary definitions. See the discussion. Malcom Turnbull states in the 1993 Report of the Republic Advisory Committee: "Australia is a state in which sovereignty derives from the people. The hereditary office of the monarchy is the only element of the Australian system of government which is not consistent with a republican form of government." (Vol 1, p1) After some discussion, I accepted the consensus view, though the article should note that Australia has a republican form of government, as the Queen's role in Australian government has vanished.

3 March

• 17:57, 3 Mar 2005
  • Adam demands I answer his questions. I do so, honestly and completely. In the next edit he ignores the flaws I've pointed out and falls back on abuse.

8 March

• 11:50, 8 Mar 2005
  • Adam concedes that the Parliamentary Library provides arguments for both sides of the debate. His view is that the identity of the head of state is convention, but if there are two sides to the debate, then it must be "a matter of contention", as I point out in the article, before being outvoted.

9 March

• 16:54, 9 Mar 2005
  • After discussion where Adam misquotes the Constitution, I note that I am upset by his departure from academic practice and unprofessional attitude. His response: "Well I'm upset (really pissed off actually) by your deliberate obfuscation and timewasting, your dishonesty, your malicious misrepresentation of other people arguments, your rampant vanity and egotism and your general obnoxious fuckwittedness, so get used to it." At this point it is clear that Adam has departed from the accepted course of scholarly discussion.

• 17:48, 9 Mar 2005
  • Adam makes it explicit that he considers truth a matter of voting rather than verifiablility.

11 March

• 11:14, 11 Mar 2005
  • Adam agrees that my edit is correct, that Smith supported the referendum but not the proposals, but he adds abuse. Embarrassed at having to concede a point, he later deletes the section.

• 15:09, 11 Mar 2005
  • Adam refuses to provide any sources for his edits, imagining that my repeatedly asking for cites is some sort of a "game" .

• 16:14, 11 Mar 2005
  • In response to my stating that it is not in me to let an error go unchallenged, Adam says "What is in you, and indeed what you are full of, is quite evident to all of us.". He does not, however, provide a cite for his edits.

• 19:45, 11 Mar 2005
  • Adam injects gratuitious abuse into an otherwise civil discussion on wording. He uses the words "troll" and "masturbate" for the first time. He would be well aware of the example he is setting.

15 Mar

• 08:56, 15 Mar 2005
  • Adam claims himself as a valid source, able to to "explain" and "interpret" the statements of others. This is against Misplaced Pages policy.

• 15:33, 15 Mar 2005
  • Adam finally provides a source for his "explaining" and "interpreting" of the thoughts of the drafters of the Constitution. His verifiable source is irrelevant.

16 Mar

• 00:07, 16 Mar 2005
  • Refreshed by Adam's good humour, I summarise the position and ask that he find it in himself to work for accuracy.

• 16:04, 16 Mar 2005
  • Adam doesn't consider his comments to be personal abuse. Nothing excuses his repeated departure from the professional standards he claims to hold and his encouragement of other editors to do likewise.

30 Mar

• 17:12, 30 Mar 2005
  • Correct errors in Republic article. After some discussion, acceptable wording is found and my version remains. Stating that Australia has a republican form of government is not original research, but it was inappropriate there.

18 May

• 09:43, 18 May 2005
  • Changing the title of the Queen to Queen of Australia confirms her as Australia's monarch. That's common sense. Saying that she is head of state remains POV.

23 May

• 10:41, 23 May 2005
  • User:jtdirl makes the surprising edit that the Queen is part of parliament. This odd statement, at variance with actual practice, is only found in the Constitution, which specifies in two places that the Queen is the Queen of the UK. Though the Royal Style and Titles Act gave her the title of Queen of Australia, legislation cannot override the Constitution. Adam refused to provide a cite for his edit.

• • A general comment on jtdirl's contributions. He is in the happy position of never being in error, or at least never having to admit it. The first sections of Archives 5 and 6 demonstrate this. Jtdirl mentions many sources, but only quotes from a few - those that reinforce his POV. Other views are ignored or misrepresented, like someone "proving" that Christianity is the one true faith through biblical quotes. An example of his tactics:
    • Professor George Winterton is widely accepted as an authority. He sums up the head of state question: An objective assessment can lead to only one conclusion: Australia's legal or formal head of state is the Queen. The Governor-General is the effective or de facto head of state of the Commonwealth. Jtdirl's interpretation is thus: Winterton ... makes it clear that legally the Queen is head of state, which is the whole point of the argument here. Actually, Winterton does not say that the Queen is the head of state. He says the Queen is the "legal or formal head of state". It is that qualification which separates those who hold the "Queen as sole head of state" view from those who hold other views. Jtdirl ignores a valid alternative wording: Winterton makes it clear that effectively the Governor-General is the head of state.. The real point is that Winterton names and describes two heads of state, but jtdirl can only see one.
  • Jtdirl says in evidence that "(Winterton) explicitly says Australia has one head of state". May we see these precise words of Winterton's, please, not a POV "interpretation"?

28 May

• 21:53, 28 May 2005
  • user:Cyberjunkie, who had been shilling for Adam on the Talk:Government of Australia page, sent me an "anonymous" message. He then made some edits to an article he had created several months earlier, as can be seen here and here. While this was amusing, Cyberjunkie's action is indicative of the level of discussion actively encouraged by Adam.

13 June

• 19:46, 13 Jun 2005

and subsequent.

• • On noting jtdirl's poor standards of work in discussion and evidence presented here, I turned aside from other work and checked his previous Misplaced Pages material. I discovered that it was full of errors in fact and logic, poor spelling and tortured sentence construction; all well below a professional standard. I corrected many (but by no means all) errors. When jtdirl discovered this, he mindlessly reverted all my careful work, (thereby reinserting many errors into WP) and deleted not only my advice to him on his talk page, but a note to Adam, repeatedly reverting Adam's talk page despite my requests to him not to do so. and subs.
  • My corrections to jtdirl's material go beyond "minor gramatical fixes":
    • replace fictional "President of the United Kingdom".
    • correct mistake that has a presidential term expire seven years before it begins.
    • correct double negative that gives the Presidential Commission fictional activity.
    • jtdirl reverts without discussing errors
    • jtdirl unsuccesfully attempts to correct basic error in presidential inauguration in an article about presidential inauguration. I think at this stage I am entitled to say that the editor is struggling to present a professional product.
    • I correct both the original error and the new one.
    • jtdirl reverts again, thoughtlessly reintroducing the same error.
    • I correct jtdirl's error a third time.
  • jtdirl aroused my interest by his dishonest, abusive and evasive behaviour. I note even now that he is unable to admit any error, he presents my corrections as harrasment, and he tries to pretend I have a sudden interest in Irish constitutional affairs. I don't. I have an interest in finding and fixing errors, as can easily be seen by looking at my contributions prior to discovering jtdirl to be a rich source of easy pickings.

Evidence of Jtdirl

General

I concur completely with Petaholmes's submission. My observation regarding Skyring's contributions is that they have been based on wholescale misrepresentations of facts. The above evidence given by him shows a clear evidence of that. Turnbull did not say that Australia is a republic, nor does his words suggest that, as any even slight acquaintence with his writings shows. What he actually means, and what he is universally interpreted to mean, is that Australia, given that Australia is a state in which sovereignty derives from the people, should not have an hereditary monarchy, as that is inconsistent with its status of popular sovereignty. Its status should be that of a republic, and abolishing the monarchy would make it a republic. He never said, and is never anywhere interpreted to say, that Australia is currently a republic. Skyring misrepresented what he said and based clearly factually wrong edits on that misrepresentation.

While one misrepresentation could be categorised as indicative of confusion on the part of the contributor. Constant continual misrepresentation of source after source after source has been the hallmark of Skyring's contributions. It is hard after reading the scale of the misrepresentations (some of them jawdropping in their audacity - as anyone with even the slighest elementary knowledge of laws, political science and constitutions knows, one simply cannot be a republic if one is a constitutional monarchy, for example. It is like saying one is a cat and a dog) to conclude that the mispresentations were just a cynical game to deface an encylopaedia article with patent nonsense just to annoy other users. Users invariably started by pointing out the errors in his writings, presuming it was a genuine mistake. However after a couple of attempts, everyone, one by one, came to conclude that the edits weren't genuine but were just a cynical game of vandalism to see if he could get away with it.

A classic example of his gross distortions of documents occurs in his evidence above, where he writes

User:jtdirl makes the rather surprising edit that the Queen is a component of the Commonwealth parliament.

It is actually written in black and white in the constitution.

Then he writes This odd statement, quite at variance with actual practice . . .

Every Australian law starts off with the line "BE IT THEREFORE enacted by the Queen, the Senate and the House of Representatives of Australia . . ."

I could go on (we all could go on and on) pointing out the fundamental errors of fact, interpretation, analysis, context, relevance, etc in his contributions. Users have filled six archives pointing out his errors. Even here he gets elementary facts wrong (how can someone so convinced that he is a constitutional expert not even know what the opening line of every Australian law is?) His response invariably is to mispresent sources, quote comments out of context and demand evidence to prove things that have been repeatedly proven, while refusing to offer evidence in return, and when finally he offers some evidence, it turns out to mean the exact opposite of what it says it means, or that the source is not compatable to other sources given in terms of credibility, eg, while others could quote primary documents, legal documents, letters patent, statements by Attorneys-General, his "evidence" in one instance was something written somewhere by some junior lawyer.

And, though users have been queuing to point it out to him, in legal terminology de facto does not mean is, it means in general terms acts in reality as. So he continually misrepresents a careful phrase by Professor George Winterton about how the Queen is the head of state and the Governor-General is de facto head of state (ie, acts as, not is) as meaning George is saying Australia that Australia has two heads of state. Nobody familiar with George's writings, with what he has said, and with the way he said it, interprets George's words that way. He explicitly says Australia has one head of state, not two. Every major academic, every major lawyer, every constitutional expert, everyone with a grasp of elementary use of english constitutional law, and everyone on Misplaced Pages but Skyring says he is completely misunderstanding at best, deliberately mispresenting at worst, George's words. (BTW I know George and know for a fact that his views are the opposite of what Skyring says.)

To see the full story, as Robert says above, you need to read the archives of the debate, in particular Archive 6. Quite frankly accepting Skyring's edits, on the basis of flimsy evidence and dubious interpretations, when all the convincing evidence points in the other direction, would have been the equivalent of giving Emperor Norton I equal billing as Abraham Lincoln in pages on who was the US head of state in the 1860s, on the basis that a few people (tongue-in-cheek) called Norton His Imperial Majesty and that the word Emperor is on his tombstone!!!

Evidence

Personal abuse and harrassment by Skyring

Because I am refusing to play his verbal games (as have others; everyone at this stage has given up even trying to communicate with him after past negative experiences) Skyring has decided to 'up the ante' by targeting me for abuse. He has spent most of his time doing nothing other than editing anything I edit, even marginally, no matter what the topic, and make changes, some of them as minimal as changing a quotation mark, and leave personal abuse.

Abusive comments

For example, focusing on my Irish origins, onto a page I had edited (marginally) he wrote

Talk:Irish referendum on the European Constitution

According to (https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/po.html), Portugal is bigger in area and population than Ireland (https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ei.html). I don't think too many people would say that Portugal is a major European state. Nice try. Pete 23:13, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

On Adam's talk page added the following.

In one case, Donald Regan I had only entered the page to fix a text box. Yet Skyring suddenly developed an interest in Ronald Reagan's former Chief of Staff, having suddenly developed an issue in the Irish presidency, Irish presidential ceremonial, crown jewels, the European Constitution, Dublin Corporation, journalistic terminology, and even a type of car (which I just happened to have visited to make a minor change when setting up a link!!!), all miraculously just after I had written something about them.

Some of it is even comical, like his 'reporting' me to an Irish editor for supposed poor english in an article. The user in question pointed out to him that (a) there was nothing much wrong with the article, (b) all I had done in the article was add a template, and (c) the user himself was in fact the author of the article, not me!

Where I was discussing something with other users, he would suddenly appear to add a snide comment.

As an example of his campaign of harrassment, take a look below at just some of his contributions. I have bold italicised the pages I had not touched or which are not about me. Everything unbolded I had edited recently on wikipedia just before Skyring's sudden interest in them too, even if on occasions only in a minor way, like adding a frame to a picture. The list is in the order of his contributions. Nothing has been edited out of the list. This is the list of all the articles he has "worked" on (in a manner of speaking) over the last few days.

• 00:13, 15 Jun 2005 (hist) (New) Talk:Irish referendum on the European Constitution (top)
• 00:10, 15 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) Irish referendum on the European Constitution (If Ireland is a major state, then everyone is.) (top)
• 06:51, 14 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) m User talk:El C (I think I've made my point, judging by your reaction. Thanks.)
• 06:24, 14 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) User talk:El C (My meter went into the red zone!)

* 06:13, 14 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) m Australia (Reverted edits by 144.139.33.132 to last version by Cyberjunkie) * 05:29, 14 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) m Moon landing (top) '

• 05:05, 14 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) Irish Crown Jewels ("gay" meaning homosexual not a word in 1907 currency.) (top)
• 04:49, 14 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) m Presidential Standard (Ireland) (sp) (top)
• 04:44, 14 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) m User talk:El C (Å®Poor standards)
• 04:41, 14 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) User talk:El C (Å®Poor standards)
• 04:23, 14 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) m Pope (rv)
• 03:19, 14 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) User talk:El C (Irish articles)
• 02:38, 14 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) m Dublin Corporation (Å®19th century reform)
• 01:38, 14 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) m Dublin City Council (Å®Current party strengths on the Council) (top)
• 01:37, 14 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) m Dublin City Council (Å®The Lord Mayor)
• 01:32, 14 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) m Crown of Queen Mary (Crown not worn at QEII coronation.) (top)
• 01:28, 14 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) m Crown of Queen Mary (The wife of your son is your daughter in law. By definition.)
• 00:53, 14 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) m Constitution of Ireland (Å®A republic?) (top)
• 00:45, 14 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) m Governor-General of the Irish Free State (decided to boycott and humiliate)
• 00:36, 14 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) User talk:Adam Carr (Looking for a kind way of breaking the news) (top)
• 00:20, 14 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) Coronation Crown of George IV/Temp (Correct spelling error. Lot more to go!) (top)
• 00:19, 14 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) m Blue Hussars (No suche word as "troope". Puzzled why jtdirl keeps reverting to mistakes!) (top)
• 00:16, 14 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) m State Crown of George I (better wording) (top)
• 00:13, 14 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) m European Constitution (Request source)
• 00:01, 14 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) m Honours of Scotland (Correct "are adored with pearls" to "are adorned with pearls") (top)
• 23:57, 13 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) m Coronation (Religious beliefs can't be extinguished by act of parliament! A bit of sense, please.) (top)
• 23:54, 13 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) m Landau (car)
• 23:51, 13 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) m Viceregal throne (Ireland) (syntax correction) (top)
• 23:46, 13 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) m Áras an Uachtaráin (Quotes) (top)
• 23:42, 13 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) m Talk:Presidential Inauguration (Ireland) (Fix error) (top)
• 23:38, 13 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) m Presidential Inauguration (Ireland) (Fix repeated error. See talk.) (top)
• 23:34, 13 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) m User talk:Adam Carr (Reinsert my message to Adam)
• 23:31, 13 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) m Council of State (Ireland) (Correct an error. Again.) (top)
• 23:28, 13 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) User talk:Adam Carr (jtdirl, please don't remove my messages to Adam. That's up to Adam and I.)
• 23:24, 13 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) Áras an Uachtaráin (Correct error. Presumably all these famous people *were* guests, rather than still resident!)
• 23:20, 13 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) Blue Hussars (Correct poor spelling. Lotta work to be done on this article!)
• 23:18, 13 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) Council of State (Ireland) (First of many minor corrections)
• 23:15, 13 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) Presidential Inauguration (Ireland) (Correct increasingly incorrect garbage.)
• 23:09, 13 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) User talk:Djegan (Low standards on some Irish articles)
• 23:06, 13 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) User talk:Adam Carr (Adam, this thing should be settled before I take it further. could you please take a look at jtdirl's material and talk sense to him?)
• 22:07, 13 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) User talk:Jtdirl (We need to talk about this.)
• 14:33, 13 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) User talk:Adam Carr (Low quality of Irish editor)
• 14:16, 13 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) Douglas Hyde (Å®Footnotes)
• 14:13, 13 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) m Douglas Hyde (Å®State funeral)
• 14:12, 13 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) m Douglas Hyde (Å®State funeral)
• 14:10, 13 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) Douglas Hyde (Å®Senility rumours)
• 14:06, 13 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) Douglas Hyde (Å®'Fine and scholarly old gentleman' says Roosevelt)
• 14:05, 13 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) Douglas Hyde (Å®President of Ireland)
• 13:46, 13 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) m Douglas Hyde (Å®Background)
• 13:39, 13 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) Áras an Uachtaráin (Å®Visitors)

13:35, 13 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) m Áras an Uachtaráin (Å®Origins)

• 13:17, 13 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) Council of State (Ireland)
• 13:07, 13 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) Governor-General of the Irish Free State (Relieve some tortured language.)
• 13:04, 13 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) Governor-General of the Irish Free State (Å®Government of Eamon de Valera)
• 13:02, 13 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) Governor-General of the Irish Free State (Crown and monarch are distinct entities.)
• 13:01, 13 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) Governor-General of the Irish Free State (Corrections. Is there a source for the last sentence in this section?)
• 12:57, 13 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) Governor-General of the Irish Free State (Correct errors, relieve torttured language.)
• 12:48, 13 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) m Official Seal of the President of Ireland (Remove careless word) (top)
• 12:47, 13 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) Official Seal of the President of Ireland (Fix minor errors. A common pattern for this editor to produce poor English.)
• 12:44, 13 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) m Official Seal of the President of Ireland
• 12:42, 13 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) Presidential Commission (Ireland) (Clarify convoluted language.)
• 12:40, 13 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) m Presidential Commission (Ireland) (Å®Powers)
• 12:37, 13 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) Coronation Crown of George IV/Temp (Å®Usage)
• 12:30, 13 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) Coronation Crown of George IV/Temp (Å®Origins)
• 12:25, 13 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) State Crown of George I (spelling and grammar)
• 12:18, 13 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) Honours of Scotland (Minor corrections.)
• 12:14, 13 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) m Honours of Scotland (spelling errors)
• 12:11, 13 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) User talk:Jtdirl (Poor standards)
• 12:09, 13 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) Presidential Inauguration (Ireland) (Fix up a tortured sentence.)
• 12:06, 13 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) m Presidential Inauguration (Ireland) (Spelling)
• 10:34, 13 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) Coronation (Fix minor errors)
• 10:17, 13 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) Landau (car) (Å®Coachbuilding)
• 10:16, 13 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) m Landau (car) (Å®Automobiles)
• 10:15, 13 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) Landau (car) (Landau ballet)
• 10:08, 13 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) m Talk:Presidential Inauguration (Ireland) (POUK)
• 10:04, 13 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) m Talk:Presidential Inauguration (Ireland)
• 10:03, 13 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) Talk:Presidential Inauguration (Ireland) (Call for standards.)
• 09:58, 13 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) Presidential Inauguration (Ireland) (Move "n".)
• 09:57, 13 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) Presidential Inauguration (Ireland) (I doubt that even the Irish Constitution has presidential terms that expire several years before they begin!)
• 09:54, 13 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) Presidential Inauguration (Ireland) (A "troop" is a military unit, a "troupe" belongs in the circus)
• 09:52, 13 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) Presidential Inauguration (Ireland) (spelling)
• 09:50, 13 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) m Presidential Inauguration (Ireland) (Spelling and grammar. Some professional standards, please!)
• 09:49, 13 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) Presidential Inauguration (Ireland) (Do we have the period in which this occurred?)
• 09:48, 13 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) Presidential Inauguration (Ireland) (logical gap)
• 09:46, 13 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) Presidential Inauguration (Ireland) (UK President little known outside enfeebled minds. POTUS inserted.)

* 09:43, 13 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) Talk:Port Arthur Massacre (ŮConspiracy theory, firearm control...) (top) * 09:38, 13 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) Port Arthur Massacre (Commonwealth has no power over firearms, SLRs not banned outright)

• 08:02, 13 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) m Donald Regan (top)
• 07:58, 13 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) m Donald Regan
• 07:53, 13 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) Talk:News anchor (Å®Merger) (top)
• 07:39, 13 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) Viceregal throne (Ireland)
• 07:36, 13 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) m Viceregal throne (Ireland)
• 07:33, 13 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) Blue Hussars (Å®Presidential escort)
• 07:32, 13 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) m Blue Hussars (Å®Presidential escort)
• 07:30, 13 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) m Blue Hussars (Å®Uniforms)
• 07:29, 13 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) m Blue Hussars (Å®Uniforms)
• 07:28, 13 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) m Blue Hussars (Å®Uniforms)
• 07:27, 13 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) m Blue Hussars
• 03:16, 13 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) m President of Ireland (See discussion page before mindless reverting, please!) (top)
• 03:10, 13 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) President of Ireland (See discussion page for agreed terms - it was YOUR idea, galah!)

03:07, 13 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) m President of Ireland (ŮOfficial residence, anthem, style and address)

• 02:11, 13 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) Talk:President of Ireland (Use of "her" to describe Presidency) (top)
• 02:04, 13 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) m President of Ireland (rv to last good version by Skyring - Irish President is a woman)
• 00:05, 13 Jun 2005 (hist) (diff) President of Ireland

Meanwhile anonymous individuals just happen to be appearing either to defend Skyring (only to disappear and never to be heard of again) or to make allegations against me .

I have no wish to have any dealings with Skyring, whom I regard as troll. He seems to have taken offence at my refusal to play his wordgames on talk pages. Having made it quite clear what I think of him I have no intention of having anything to do with this individual. When he gets bored trying to intimidate and harrass me, he will no doubt move on to someone else. Individuals like that should not be on Misplaced Pages.

Evidence presented by {Wingbearer}

GENERAL

I have been asked to cast an eye over this matter. The material is in a format reminiscent of “hypertext” with its forest of links. It is hard to follow, although the “signatures” aid in understanding the flow of discussion. It would be extremely difficult to present this in court in a raw form.

The “Misplaced Pages” looks to be competently done in the main, however it is riddled with errors and inconsistencies when examined in detail. Top marks for a good idea, but a FAIL if the intention is to produce a reliable reference work.

PARTIES TO THE DISPUTE

On reading this copious material I wish that I was being paid to do so and that I could examine the parties in court where they could be compelled to answer questions. It would be preferable for these people to sit together around a table and discuss their issues face to face. By debating from behind a shield of Internet anonymity, they say things they would not say in real life.

“PETE”

One of the quickest ways to antagonise an impartial audience is to be snide, sarcastic and “smart”. When used with hostile listeners, it is a strategy of failure, regardless of whether the evidence is reliable and factual. Nitpicking and triumphantly exposing errors are not going to win over the good will of those who do not relish admitting error. A tick for failing to respond to abuse and provocation. Good research, poorly presented.

“ADAM”

This witness would be in contempt of court in short order. Open hostility, threatening behaviour, inability to recognise higher authority, inability to present cites, partisan encouragement of other parties etc. The charge of “Misplaced Pages-rage” as an analogy to “road-rage” is apposite.

“JTDIRL”

Any competent lawyer would give this witness an extremely uncomfortable time in cross-examination. His ignorance of the very material in which he presents himself as an expert is plain. For example he is unfamiliar with the leaders of the Australian monarchists and their public statements made during the 1999 referendum debate. His material on Irish affairs is colourful but irrelevant. He refers to cites which are not provided. Some statements are gobbledygook: “George quite normally draws the distinction between the de jure and de facto roles, as would any professional lawyer. However he goes further and qualifies even the de facto claim, lest anyone misunderstand him as claiming there are two heads of states, when he makes it clear that there aren't, by saying that even the de facto role is restricted internally within the Commonwealth, by speaking of the Commonwealth, but not of Australia. In other words, the Governor-General acts as, not is, the head of state, but only within the constitutional and legal framework as defined by constitutional and statute law, as well as Letters Patent, within the structures of the Commonwealth. He does only what legally he can do internally. But in no sense, even de facto is he the embodiment of Australia, merely of the governmental structures internally of the Commonwealth.”

OTHER PARTICIPANTS

No other parties are as prolific and prolix as these three. Several positions are exhibited, ranging from those strident in their declarations, reminiscent of those who stand at the back of crowds to call out in support of their champion, to those who seek calm and rational consensus.

THE GOVERNOR-GENERAL AS HEAD OF STATE

Nobody who saw Sir William Deane at the service for the victims of the Swiss Canyoning tragedy, or officiating at the opening of the 2000 Olympic Games, would claim that he was not the embodiment of Australia and Australian values, merely of “internal governmental structures”. Speaking as a professional lawyer, I can say that the question has never been asked of the High Court as to who is the Australian head of state. I think that if the question was ever put, then the answer would depend on the context of the case, for example if the 1975 dismissal of the Prime Minister had ever engaged the attention of the High Court, it might have been found that Sir John Kerr did not act as the delegate or agent or representative of any office other than his own. But I cannot speak for the High Court, who change their opinions with each new appointment.

It is commonplace to see the Governor-General described as the Head of State in the media through headlines and editorials. Letters columns debated the issue during the referendum campaign and my own local paper continues to run correspondence on the question. Politicians routinely describe the Governor-General as the Head of State. The Opposition Leader during the Peter Hollingworth affair said this: “SIMON CREAN: Of course I do because I've known him over many years and he has done important work for the community. I also have sympathy for the circumstances of his wife and I expressed those to the Governor-General at ANZAC Day. But, you know, there's a whole lot emotions going here. But the truth of it is we're dealing with the Head of State and the Head of State cannot be a person who has covered up for child sex abusers.” http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2003/s863541.htm John Stubbs, another figure of impeccable Labor credentials said in his 1989 biography of Bill Hayden: “On 16 February 1989, Bill Hayden, who was a month old when his parents were married, was sworn in as Australia’s Head of State.” (John Stubbs, “Hayden”, William Heinemann, Melbourne, p3).

The matter became political during the referendum campaign, with those advocating a Yes vote saying that this would give us an Australian as Head of State, and the monarchists asking for a No vote saying that we already had the Governor-General as Head of State and he was an Australian.

It is typical of Australia that the government itself is unsure of the answer. The official Commonwealth Government Directory alternates between describing the Queen as Head of State and the Governor-General as Head of State. Both have had “runs” of several years!

The best that can be said is that opinion is divided, and that though either side can marshal up a range of arguments, it is a nonsense to dismiss the arguments of their opponents. A Parliamentary Library Research Brief summarises the positions. http://www.aph.gov.au/library/pubs/rn/1995-96/96rn44.htm

There is also a middle ground of the opinion that the Queen and the Governor-General are both Heads of State, usually stating the Queen is the symbolic figurehead while the Governor-General does the job. Supporters of this view do not say that one or the other is the head of state. They use terms such as “formal” or “notional” or “effective” or “symbolic”. I have seen this last term used to describe both the Queen and the Governor-General, which is indicative of the diversity of opinion on this matter.

CONCLUSION

I am glad that my job is not to provide a final definitive wording! I would direct that all parties come to an agreement and that they do so with politeness and respect for each other, and that if they cannot do this then they are not fit to edit a kindergarten newsletter, much less an encyclopaedia.

Evidence presented by Robert Merkel

Wingbearer, would you mind clarifying who asked you to look into this matter? --Robert Merkel 07:32, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

There is no User:Wingbearer. People who are not Users are not entitled to arbitrate disputes between Users and certainly not to "direct" them. I suggest "Wingbearer's" screed be stricken from the record. Adam 11:27, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Forget about what Adam said, this "evidence" is totally irrelevant to the case at hand. This is about a user's conduct, not about further arguing his cause. Xtra 11:47, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Having reread the contribution of 'Wingbearer' there are suspicious aspects to the contribution which raises the serious question as to whether a sockpuppet is being used on the page. But then, given the contempt showed for factual accuracy, legal definitions, quotes and Misplaced Pages consensus rules, I suppose contempt for this process here is to be expected by one of the parties to the dispute here, with the appearance of someone with no editing history, no identity, etc to 'bolster' (supposedly) one side of the argument. Indeed, typically, that user is intent on forcing that mysterious individual's 'contribution', the only conveniently to defend them amid the universal criticism of their behaviour, by reverting to install their stuff even though its presence here breaks the rules of RfA. But then, having broken so many other rules, guidelines and ignored so many facts, what's another breaking of the rules to them. If that individual is in any way related to the apparent sockpuppet, would that warrant a ban for that individual? FearÉIREANN 20:43, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)