Talk:X Window System: Difference between revisions

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			{{onlinesource\|year=2004\|section=February 2004\|small= yes
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	==Quotes==

	Is there any reason for no quotes about X server in the article? Like ]'s

	== OpenVMS / DECwindows reference? ==

	Should "Hewlett-Packard's OpenVMS operating system includes a version of X with CDE, known as DECwindows, as its standard desktop environment" be reworded? Since HP also ships HP-UX (which presumably also has X), perhaps both should be mentioned to avoid confusion, as OpenVMS and DECwindows are legacy DEC products. It just seems a little like saying "DaimlerChrysler's Plymouth Road Runner Super Bird," with the difference that HP is, in fact, maintaining and shipping legacy DEC stuff.

	:Dunno. You can reword if you like, but OpenVMS is a ''current'' product. Just a very high-end one. And considerably less dead than HP-UX - ] 12:16, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

	== Display PostScript did not become Aqua ==
	As seen in the Misplaced Pages article on Display Postscript (http://en.wikipedia.org/Display_PostScript), it become Quartz. Aqua is the visual theme in OS X, not the display technology.
	:Display Postscript was ''replaced'' by Quartz. Neither is a window manager. -] 15:46, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

	== Ununderstable introduction ==

	Is it possible to begin this article with a sentence using the verb 'to be' so that it can answer the question that everybody wonders:
	:"What is X Window System ?"
	So, I think the article should begin this way:
	:In ], the '''X Window System''' (commonly '''X11''' or '''X''') is...
	and it's up to you to continue... ] 22:35, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

	:I tried just now and couldn't come up with anything. It is both a dessert wax ''and'' a floor topping, or a protocol for constructing such, or toolkits for such - ] 12:15, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

	== criticisms section and factual inaccuracies/omissions ==

	''Many current implementations of X manipulate the video hardware directly. A misbehaving server can render the display unusable even if the underlying operating system continues to function, possibly requiring a reboot.''

	: So what? A misbehaving driver can lock up any graphical system on any OS. I don't see why this criticism is specific to X at all.

	''The X protocol provides no facilities for handling sound, leaving it to the operating system to provide support for audio hardware and sound playback.''

	: I thought MAS was part of the official standard now. Granted, nobody uses it...

			== Why intro does not clarify that X11 is a protocol? ==
	''The device-independence and the separation of client and server do incur an overhead.''

			The '''X Window System''' ('''X11''', or simply '''X''') is a ] for bitmap displays, common on Unix-like operating systems.
	: All decent graphics APIs are device independent, from Win32 GDI to Quartz to DirectX to OpenGL. That's kind of the point of the API. To provide device independence.
			'''X Window System''' is a specification which seems to have second name of '''X11''' (whereas there exists '''X11 protocol''' which is a part of '''X11''' specification). However the reference "]" can confuse since it does state in its intro the following fact
			...a windowing system (or window system) ''is software''
			As I have stated, '''X Window System''' is not software but specification or design description though it has a reference implementation. That did mislead me in first place and could mislead others. Shall we clarify that is it a ''specification''? If not, I apologize and please tell me what I am missing. -- ] (]) 22:06, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

			:Actually, X11 is a standard. X-Window-System is a standard an X11 one of its versions.
	: Also, both Windows and Mac OS X operate on the same "separation of client and server" principle also. All modern GUIs do their actual output and GUI apps in separate processes. If every GUI app had direct access to the hardware (as this criticism seems to suggest) it would be a mess!
			Inside XWindowS you have the Xprotocol, that is like Machine Language for X, and XLibs to make programmers live easier. ] (]) 19:20, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

			== How could one possibly confuse this with Microsoft Windows? ==
	: Also, when you are running programs locally, X will use MIT-SHM and zero-copy sockets, which greatly reduces the affect of this separation.

			There's a weird archived section from 2004 about how Microsoft lawyers would sue the maintainers of X11 for the name "X Windows" (and...no...I think few lawyers would be stupid enough to do that even when that was the name, not to mention this predates Windows 1.0 so they couldn't do anything). But I don't understand why else the article would start with "not to be confused with Microsoft Windows" because everything on the article points to this not being Microsoft's Windows. Is this a byproduct of that weird section in 2004? <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 04:24, 13 April 2022 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
	I just think that many of these criticisms seem to have been put in by uninformed users. – ] 15:12, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

			:@] It's not uncommon to see it called X Windows, X-Windows, etc. For people less technically- (or at least less Unixily-) inclined, it's not improbable they might think anything computer-related called "Windows" is something to do with Microsoft. I'm not sure of the origin of the hatnote, but it doesn't do any harm. Getting that potential confusion cleared up immediately, without the reader getting through more of the article, is not a bad thing. ] (]) 17:51, 17 April 2022 (UTC)
	:: Okay, I see that this last point has in fact been given treatment in the article. It needs to be clearer though. I have started editing the section, trying to be careful to do so in a neutral way. – ] 15:23, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

			== VcXsrv not listed as free implementation on Windows ==
	:The criticisms are actual problems that are or were commonly touted. I wrote that para most carefully. I suppose there could theoretically be cites for each ... The device independence one was actually unusual in the late '80s and is addressed about as well as it could be in that paragraph. MAS may be the 'standard', but there is no accepted sound transport standard that people actually use - ] 10:19, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

			A reference to VcXsrv in Implementation section was removed as not non-notable entry. This is strange as VcXsrv is one of the only 3 available as free implementation on Windows.
	:And I'm somewhat surprised you didn't look up the two sources of criticisms listed at the top of the section! A lot of the criticisms are old and outmoded, but still common - ] 10:48, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

			The other two are Cygwin/X and Xming. While Cygwin/X is free, opensource and kept updated, the minimum installation is 800 MB, so not suggested but in case you need also posix layer and other tools with windows. Xming on the other way come in two versions, only one (v6.9) is free/public domain/MIT licensed but it is very old, from 2007, unstable and not ready for production env. The other Xming is updated (v7.7) but proprietary licensed and payd so not free.
	== What is this article about? ==

			So most of Windows users today are using VcXsrv. This is expecially true in recent years where ] is really common and widespread, and more and more these days that WSL got DirectX acceleration with WSLg in Win10 21H1 too.
	A toolkit? A protocol? An implementation? A GUI?

	~~:No,~~ ~~yes,~~ a ~~fair~~ ~~bit~~, not ~~quite~~ - ] 12:08, 2 ~~October~~ ~~2006~~ (UTC)		OK VcXsrv does not have a Wiki page, but this do not do it non-notable ] (]) 11:24, 27 November 2022 (UTC)

			:In the above, the only cited source is the project's SourceForge page. In Misplaced Pages, talk pages aren't a ], so to continue the discussion, you should demonstrate ] by presenting ] which could be used to develop a suitable topic ] (]) 11:45, 27 November 2022 (UTC)
	:Intro rewritten as " is ..." - if that isn't clear, add wikilinks to taste - ] 10:17, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

			Here some:
	Well, I imagine over 90% of the world's computer-using population has never heard of the X Window System, so it's no wonder people are confused what this article is about. ] \| ] 08:39, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

			https://itservices.cas.unt.edu/software/windows-x-server-vcxsrv
	: To restore the honor of anonymous poster world-wide: I was not confused, but merely pointing out the inconsistency. <small>—The preceding ] comment was added by ] (]) 21:47, 22 January 2007 (UTC).</small><!-- HagermanBot Auto-Unsigned -->

			https://www.stat.ipb.ac.id/agusms/index.php/2019/01/15/how-to-run-graphical-linux-applications-on-bash-on-ubuntu-on-windows-10/
	==Application Migration==

			https://uni-tuebingen.de/fakultaeten/wirtschafts-und-sozialwissenschaftliche-fakultaet/faecher/fachbereich-wirtschaftswissenschaft/wirtschaftswissenschaft/fb-wiwi/einrichtungen-wirtschaftswissenschaft/wiwi-it/services/services/computing-asp/tools/x-server/vcxsrv/
	The article asserts that applications cannot migrate. This is not in fact true. An early counter example is Gnu Emacs, which has been about to do so since the 1980's (along with replicated display).
	This was painful in the past due to colormaps (though if you thought ahead while building a toolkit, it wasn't difficult). It is now
	<i>much</i> easier, between client side fonts and true color displays being the norm.

			https://www.shogan.co.uk/how-tos/wsl2-gui-x-server-using-vcxsrv/
	A more recent example is that GTK+ applications can potentially migrate, at least if they do not use obsolete interfaces. See the "teleport" application of the GPE environment. What is still missing is both good integrated authentication and security (encryption) of the protocol to make migration "safe" to do. I'd like to see people pursue this: see my paper http://www.linuxsymposium.org/2005/view_abstract.php?content_key=102
	And with the rewrite of the input section of the X Server, remoting input devices is also now becoming feasible. Oh, this paper should probably get added to the bibliography.

			https://www.uxora.com/unix/45-xdisplay-over-ssh-with-putty-xming-vcxsrv
	As I am ] 23:57, 01-Jan-2007 (UTC), I leave it to others to verify this and edit the article.

			https://askubuntu.com/questions/1435037/how-to-check-and-confirm-a-right-opengl-version-with-vcxsrv-for-using-ros2-rviz
	: I tried to rephrase the ''Network'' section to reflect this, and used your paper as a source. ] 22:41, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

			https://seanthegeek.net/234/graphical-linux-applications-bash-ubuntu-windows/
	== On ], X Window System is currently the selected article ==

			https://help.cs.uwindsor.ca/mediawiki/index.php/VcXsrv
	(2007-02-04) Just to let you know. The purpose of selecting an article is both to point readers to the article and to highlight it to potential contributors. It will remain on the portal for a week or so. The previous selected article was ]. ] 20:13, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

			https://www.scrc.umanitoba.ca/doc/tutorial/T19_3a_xsrvputty.htm
	:The selected article box has been updated again, the new selectee is ]. ] 12:55, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

			https://www.oit.va.gov/Services/TRM/ToolPage.aspx?tid=9676
	== Broken reference link ==

			https://www.onworks.net/software/windows/app-vcxsrv-windows-x-server
	One of your references had a broken link.

			https://codeyarns.com/tech/2019-05-12-vcxsrv-x-server-for-windows.html#gsc.tab=0
	The means to an X for Linux: an interview with David Dawes from XFree86.org (Matthew Arnison, CAT TV, June 1999)

			--] (]) 14:50, 27 November 2022 (UTC)
	I used the latest archived page of it since I could not find the page anywhere else.

			:sure - then go ahead and create a topic, so that others can validate which are ] ] (]) 22:24, 27 November 2022 (UTC)
	] 01:38, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

			be careful not to get caught up in bureaucracy, damaging the quality of the Wiki product--] (]) 10:50, 28 November 2022 (UTC)
	== What Happened to X ORG? ==

			== Wayland as its successor? ==
	I got the following from a post to my local LUG (GWLUG):Both my ISP's and UT=128.83.185.40 's dns servers agree. X.org and www.x.org
	> > do not exist!

			Should this article body and infobox state Wayland as the successor to X11? They're under the same umbrella.
	I got "Firefox can't find the server at www.x.org." after my attempt to connect to it at http://www.x.org/

			https://www.x.org/XorgFoundation/ :
	] 16:55, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

			{{blockquote\| X.Org Foundation's (or X.Org for short) purpose is to research, develop, support, organize, administrate, standardize, promote, and defend a free and open accelerated graphics stack and the developers and users thereof. This stack includes, but is not limited to, the following projects: DRM, Mesa, Wayland and the X Window System.}} ] (]) 11:47, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
	: Whois lists the domain as ok. None of the nameservers are responding so they are offline. Most likely they put all of their nameservers on the same subnet. No one should do this of course but it is quite common. ] 17:06, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 17:26, 17 July 2024

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This article has been mentioned by a media organization:

"X Marks the Spot: Looking back at X11 Developments of Past Year". OSNews. February 25, 2004.

Why intro does not clarify that X11 is a protocol?

   The X Window System (X11, or simply X) is a windowing system for bitmap displays, common on Unix-like operating systems.

X Window System is a specification which seems to have second name of X11 (whereas there exists X11 protocol which is a part of X11 specification). However the reference "windowing system" can confuse since it does state in its intro the following fact

   ...a windowing system (or window system) is software

As I have stated, X Window System is not software but specification or design description though it has a reference implementation. That did mislead me in first place and could mislead others. Shall we clarify that is it a specification? If not, I apologize and please tell me what I am missing. -- Yoratade (talk) 22:06, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

:Actually, X11 is a standard.  X-Window-System is a standard an X11 one of its versions.
Inside XWindowS you have the Xprotocol, that is like Machine Language for X, and XLibs to make programmers live easier.  Guilloip (talk) 19:20, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

How could one possibly confuse this with Microsoft Windows?

There's a weird archived section from 2004 about how Microsoft lawyers would sue the maintainers of X11 for the name "X Windows" (and...no...I think few lawyers would be stupid enough to do that even when that was the name, not to mention this predates Windows 1.0 so they couldn't do anything). But I don't understand why else the article would start with "not to be confused with Microsoft Windows" because everything on the article points to this not being Microsoft's Windows. Is this a byproduct of that weird section in 2004? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.201.25.34 (talk) 04:24, 13 April 2022 (UTC)

@72.201.25.34 It's not uncommon to see it called X Windows, X-Windows, etc. For people less technically- (or at least less Unixily-) inclined, it's not improbable they might think anything computer-related called "Windows" is something to do with Microsoft. I'm not sure of the origin of the hatnote, but it doesn't do any harm. Getting that potential confusion cleared up immediately, without the reader getting through more of the article, is not a bad thing. Inops (talk) 17:51, 17 April 2022 (UTC)

VcXsrv not listed as free implementation on Windows

A reference to VcXsrv in Implementation section was removed as not non-notable entry. This is strange as VcXsrv is one of the only 3 available as free implementation on Windows.

The other two are Cygwin/X and Xming. While Cygwin/X is free, opensource and kept updated, the minimum installation is 800 MB, so not suggested but in case you need also posix layer and other tools with windows. Xming on the other way come in two versions, only one (v6.9) is free/public domain/MIT licensed but it is very old, from 2007, unstable and not ready for production env. The other Xming is updated (v7.7) but proprietary licensed and payd so not free.

So most of Windows users today are using VcXsrv. This is expecially true in recent years where WSL is really common and widespread, and more and more these days that WSL got DirectX acceleration with WSLg in Win10 21H1 too.

OK VcXsrv does not have a Wiki page, but this do not do it non-notable Efa (talk) 11:24, 27 November 2022 (UTC)

In the above, the only cited source is the project's SourceForge page. In Misplaced Pages, talk pages aren't a reliable source, so to continue the discussion, you should demonstrate notability by presenting independent sources which could be used to develop a suitable topic TEDickey (talk) 11:45, 27 November 2022 (UTC)

Here some:

https://itservices.cas.unt.edu/software/windows-x-server-vcxsrv

https://www.stat.ipb.ac.id/agusms/index.php/2019/01/15/how-to-run-graphical-linux-applications-on-bash-on-ubuntu-on-windows-10/

https://uni-tuebingen.de/fakultaeten/wirtschafts-und-sozialwissenschaftliche-fakultaet/faecher/fachbereich-wirtschaftswissenschaft/wirtschaftswissenschaft/fb-wiwi/einrichtungen-wirtschaftswissenschaft/wiwi-it/services/services/computing-asp/tools/x-server/vcxsrv/

https://www.shogan.co.uk/how-tos/wsl2-gui-x-server-using-vcxsrv/

https://www.uxora.com/unix/45-xdisplay-over-ssh-with-putty-xming-vcxsrv

https://askubuntu.com/questions/1435037/how-to-check-and-confirm-a-right-opengl-version-with-vcxsrv-for-using-ros2-rviz

https://seanthegeek.net/234/graphical-linux-applications-bash-ubuntu-windows/

https://help.cs.uwindsor.ca/mediawiki/index.php/VcXsrv

https://www.scrc.umanitoba.ca/doc/tutorial/T19_3a_xsrvputty.htm

https://www.oit.va.gov/Services/TRM/ToolPage.aspx?tid=9676

https://www.onworks.net/software/windows/app-vcxsrv-windows-x-server

https://codeyarns.com/tech/2019-05-12-vcxsrv-x-server-for-windows.html#gsc.tab=0

--Efa (talk) 14:50, 27 November 2022 (UTC)

sure - then go ahead and create a topic, so that others can validate which are reliable sources TEDickey (talk) 22:24, 27 November 2022 (UTC)

be careful not to get caught up in bureaucracy, damaging the quality of the Wiki product--Efa (talk) 10:50, 28 November 2022 (UTC)

Wayland as its successor?

Should this article body and infobox state Wayland as the successor to X11? They're under the same umbrella.

https://www.x.org/XorgFoundation/ :

X.Org Foundation's (or X.Org for short) purpose is to research, develop, support, organize, administrate, standardize, promote, and defend a free and open accelerated graphics stack and the developers and users thereof. This stack includes, but is not limited to, the following projects: DRM, Mesa, Wayland and the X Window System.

Merko (talk) 11:47, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

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