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I wrote a mini-biography of Maryam Rajavi, and even put pictures (from her website) that to prove the facts.
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==WP:POVPUSH problems==
For example, I wrote about her address to a 15,000 Iranians in Dortmund (Germany) and put a picture of that as well as another gathering which she spoke to in person of 25,000 Iranians in Earl's Court, in London (United Kingdom). These events of course received much press coverage both in German and British dailies. There is however someone who keeps vandalising the text, changing facts and even writing unsubstantiated lies. The person, whom I suspect of being an agent of the Iranian regime, also vandalises the page about the People's Mojahedin Organisation of Iran (PMOI), again deleting factual texts and writing lies. It does not surprise me that agents on the payroll of the Iranian Intelligence Ministry (VEVAK) abroad try to white-wash their own crimes and pretend that the Iranian opposition are the "criminal", since I know that VEVAK are actively pursuing a campaign to demonize the Iranian opposition in the West. (If you read the talk section and edit sections of the Maryam Rajavi page and the Mojahedin-e Khalq page you will undoubtedly see that the guy continuously calls me and my friend "Terrorists" without even the slightest idea of who I am or who he is) What does however disappoint me is Misplaced Pages's inability to combat such abuse. Despite the service being an extremely valuable one, Misplaced Pages seems unable to control vandalism on its encyclopaedia.


{{u|Iskandar323}} what is going on? Why are you promoting the same minor view in these BLPs? ] (]) 09:59, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
One other fact that I thought would be useful for everyone to know, is that the Iranian regime has to date executed over 120,000 political prisoners of the PMOI and have acknowledged this themselves. A partial list of the names and particulars of those executed can be found at www.iranterror.com . Ayatollah Montazeri, Khomeini’s right hand man wrote in his memoirs a few years ago (as published in the Sunday Times) that the regime executed over 30,000 PMOI members in a matter of a few weeks in 1988. Khomeini's henchmen, many of whom today live abroad and try to demonize the Iranian opposition, also tortured over half a million PMOI supporters inside Iran's prisons. Yet, when I added the 120,000 figure in the page about the Mojahedin, the regime's guy removed it, and again started to say that such a thing was a lie. This is how VEVAK tries to demonize the Iranian opposition.


:What's the minor view exactly? ] (]) 11:03, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
The other problem is that this guy is continuously offensive and uses offending language, as one would expect from agents who are there to defend a corrupt dictatorship.--] 16:51, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)
:It appears something is happening in ] and ]. ] (]) 13:18, 11 June 2023 (UTC)


::{{u|Iskandar323}}: your added that {{tq|This was justified on the basis of the new relationship being "a matter of revolutionary necessity"|}}. Following my notification here, it appears you it to {{tq|the two co-leaders would marry in an act that was framed as being for the benefit of the organization|}} while adding this to it? How does the BBC source support this was "a matter of revolutionary necessity"? ] (]) 14:57, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
:You and "your friends" huh?! And I am an agent of the Islamic Regime in Iran? Did you say "Khomeini's henchmen"?! Were you guys not his very henchmen who helped him come to power? Were you guys not his right hand in oppressing Iranian people? Who is the liar here, me or you?! Who is the one who falsely accuses people here? Me or you? You are the one who accuses anybody who tries to write the truth about the shameful history and deeds of your organization, of being an agent of the Mullahs. This is the "culture" of your cult. As I wrote before, there is almost ZERO difference between you and the mullahs (and I say "almost" because the mullahs, as repulsive as they are, are not quite as evil, opportunistic and hypocritical as you people are.) Was your organization not the one who helped bring Khomeini to power? Now you are talking about "the future of Iran"?! Who are you to talk about Iran? You were not only the henchmen of Khomeini, you were also the henchmen of Saddam. And now you are the henchmen of the neocons in Washington. You call me agent of the islamic regime? This shows your weakness and inability to answer any of these charges that your filthy organization is known for. OK, I am an agent of the mullahs, what about all the other Iranians? Is it a lie that nearly all Iranians hate your organization with passion? Because they know very well what damn hypocrites you people are. The ONLY thing consistent about your cult is that you have stabbed everybody in the back -- including your own members; and the Iranian nation is one of them. Answer these questions:
:::Or that this was framed as being for the benefit of the organization? ] (]) 15:03, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

::::@]: Why are you deleting the subject's marriage? This in the infobox and lead; it needs to be in the body. See ] and ]. This is core biographical information and the obvious need to have it in the body is pretty simple stuff. The only mystery here is why anybody would delete this. The last person who is a now blocked disruptive editor. I hope you have a very good explanation as to why you are repeating the actions of said disruptive editor. ] (]) 17:19, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
::*Didn't your organization use to kill Americans in Iran during the previous regime?
:::The BBC is the source for the same information in the lead. The quote is the New Yorker. ] (]) 17:30, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
::*Were you guys not the ones who helped Khomeini come to power?
:{{u|ParadaJulio}}: Please, elaborate on why you are objecting to changes here. What you are doing here, jumping to accusations without any substantive discussion of content, is not tolerable. ] (]) 18:00, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
::*Were you not involved in the takeover of the American embassy in Tehran and taking hostages?
:: that "This was justified on the basis of the new relationship being 'a matter of revolutionary necessity'", which is based solely on one source, contradicts ]. ] (]) 21:50, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
::*Did you not cooperate with Saddam Hussein?
:::Only one source is cited here, but as it has been discussed in other occasions at the MEK talk page, there are quite a few reliable sources stating the same. Either that it was an ideological marriage, that the marriage was needed to deepen the "ideological revolution", etc. We can discuss if there are enough sources or if there are contradictory sources, but this is hardly an ] issue, when we're talking about something reflecting in reliable sources. ] (]) 22:54, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
::*Are you not cooperating with Washington now?
:::And regardless, these would be reasons to delete the supplementary sentence about the precise reasonsing for the marriage, not the core biographical information of the marriage itself - however, since it was a deeply political/ideological marriage, that is referenced in almost all the relevant sources too. Here are more relevant sources for your perusal (that's three ideological explanations, one cult/wife-swapping):
::*Do Iranian people like you and support you?
:::*{{tq|Rajavi, as the head of the organization, launched an “ideological revolution”, banning marriage and enforcing mandatory “eternal” divorce on all members, who were required to separate from their husbands or wives. He married one of the new divorcees, Maryam Azodanlu, who became, in effect, his chief lieutenant and took his name.}}

:::*{{tq|At the Neshest it took Rajavi five days to convince members of his main revolutionary demand - that they should divorce their spouses. He wanted to ensure that members’ sexual identity would be denied and thus bring about their complete devotion to himself as their leader... Massoud and Maryam Rajavi were married in February 1985. Members were given an ideological explanation: “Maryam chose to divorce her husband in favour of her marriage to the Mojahedin’s ideological leader so that she could work with him as cooperating leading partners.”}} (Cohen, 2009, pp.32-39)
:I think this is enough for now. The best thing you and "your friends" can do, is to crawl back to your holes and beat your chest for your beloved terrorist cult leaders Masoud and Maryam and help them lead you farther down the abyss. And don't write lies and rubbish here. Your entire organization is not more than at most a few thousand members, and you don't have any sympathatizers among Iranian people. Now crawl back to your cave in Saddam's desert.
:::*{{tq|the Mojahedin had metamorphized from a mass movement into an inward-looking sect in many ways similar to religious cults found the world over. This metamorphosis rapidly crystallized in early 1985 with Rajavi’s new marriage...Until then, Mojahedin activists had known Maryam Azodanlu as merely the younger sister of a veteran member, and the wife of Mehdi Abrishamchi, one of Rajavi’s close colleagues…proclamation also mentioned almost in passing that Maryam Azodanlu and Mehdi Abrishamchi had recently divorced in order to pave the way for this 'great revolution...It smacked of wife-swapping, especially when Abrishamchi announced his own marriage to Khiabani’s younger sister...}} (Abrahamian, 1989, pp.251-255)

:::] (]) 06:13, 13 June 2023 (UTC)
== For everyone to see the truth ==
::::], you cited the same Guardian source twice. Which of these additional sources support the text {{tq|''This was justified on the basis of the new relationship being "a matter of revolutionary necessity"''|}}? And please provide the page numbers from Abrahamian's and Cohen's quotes, I have not been able to find them in those books. ] (]) 15:15, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

:::::Ok, you have page numbers. You still haven't explained why you reverted the entire edits, including the core biographical information, instead of just partially reverting the part that you thought was not supported. ] (]) 15:37, 13 June 2023 (UTC)
I have no intention of arguing with someone who is obviously not interested in the truth and who makes accusations without providing any proof, but for the interest of other readers and to prove that the regime lies and is running a demonization campaign against the Iranian opposition, I would like to answer the accusations.
::::::See ], which helped us understand that:

::::::* You wikivoiced {{tq|''This was justified on the basis of the new relationship being "a matter of revolutionary necessity"''|}}, even though it's a statement from a single source.
Please, everyone reading this bear in mind that I am not myself a member of the PMOI, thus the answers I give would probably not be up to the standards of the organisation.
::::::* You provided other sources for the statement, but they also don't seem to support it.

::::::Without resorting to further unnecessary , elaborate on what (]) information you think the article is missing. ] (]) 14:02, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
In response to “Didn't your organization use to kill Americans in Iran during the previous regime?”
:::::::The details of the subject's divorce, as already mentioned in the infobox, and yet currently absent from the body, which provides zero explanation as to how she transitioned from one marriage to the next. ] (]) 04:46, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

::::::::What is mentioned in the infobox is that Maryam Rajavi was married to Mehdi Abrishamchi from 1980 to 1985, and to Massoud Rajavi from 1985 (dis. 2003). Apparently she also has a daughter. We could create a section about == with this kind of neutral information like in Massoud Rajavi's article. ] (]) 15:02, 15 June 2023 (UTC)
The PMOI, (not my organisation) has never killed Americans in Iran. I understand that some 5 of 6 Americans were killed in Iran at the time of the Shah and then attributed to the Iranian opposition, however at the time the PMOI issued a statement denouncing the acts, which were later discovered to be the work of a splinter organisation, PEYKAR, who after the revolution joined Khomeini’s forces in suppressing the Iranian PMOI members, but today they are non-existent in Iran.
:::::::::Yes, you could and should have done that at the time nearly a week ago if all you objected to was the explanation, instead of what you did, which was blanket reverting core facts. ] (]) 16:05, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

::::::::::Prior discussion was necessary to identify the precise problems with your edits. ] (]) 15:04, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

:::::::::::What? If you cannot identify any precise problem with an edit, you should not revert it. What you are describing, preemptively reverting just in case you later think of a reason, is highly disruptive. ] (]) 11:43, 17 June 2023 (UTC)
In response to “Were you guys not the ones who helped Khomeini come to power?”
::::::::::::There is nothing "disruptive" about following ], which allows communication between editors, and particularly when Iskandar was wikivoicing information from one source and adding new sources that did not support that statement. ] (]) 12:39, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

:::::::::::::No. It is disruptive when you revert and do not clearly explain why. It took a long conversation to gather the rationale, and that is a waste of time for everyone. ] (]) 16:05, 9 July 2023 (UTC)
The PMOI, (again not my organisation) fought an underground resistance against the Shah’s regime so as to free the Iranian people from tyranny. At the time Khomeini was living in France. By the time of the 1979 revolution, the entire PMOI leadership was in the Shah’s prisons, thus Khomeini was able to steal the revolution as his own and then introduced his brand of Islamic fundamentalism to suppress the Iranian people far more than the Shah did. Of course Khomeini knew that the PMOI could not be negotiated with if he were to suppress the people since they sacrificed their lives for the peoples’ freedom. Therefore most of Khomeini’s violence was directed at the PMOI, and even his number 2 man, Ayatollah Montazeri has admitted in his memoirs that in the span of only a few weeks in the summer of 1988 more than 30,000 PMOI members were executed in Khomeini’s prisons. To date Khomeini’s regime has executed over 120,000 members of the PMOI. So, I hope everyone now understands that it was not the PMOI would brought Khomeini to power. They were in prison, and when the revolution broke out Khomeini stole the momentum and pronounced himself leader, whereas before he was living in France.
::::::::::::::There were conflated problems with Iskandar323's edits and a discussion was required. In the future (and when possible) I will try listing each individual issue separately, but the ] is on the editor making the changes (not on the editor who’s trying to disentangle them). ] (]) 15:41, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

:::::::::::::::You barely even pointed out a problem. Your obfuscating communication style is the primary problem in this thread. You could have easily tweaked my edits, but instead you reverted and wasted time byavoiding explaining your actions. You need to A) AGF (big time) and B) be an actual collegiate editor who tries to work with other editors, not waste their/community time. ] (]) 17:13, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

In response to “Were you not involved in the takeover of the American embassy in Tehran and taking hostages?”

The PMOI never supported the regime when it took hostages in the American embassy. They gave at least a dozen statements during the 444 days denouncing the action, which in fact gave Khomeini a chance to label the Mojahedin “pro-American” and get his henchmen to attack members and supporters of the organisation.


In response to “Did you not cooperate with Saddam Hussein?”

One common charge the Iranian Ministry of Intelligence and Security (VEVAK) spreads about the PMOI is that the organisation cooperated with Saddam Hussein. After Khomeini’s regime executed tens of thousands of Mojahedin members and their supporters, the PMOI would their base to Iran-Iraq border. The Iran-Iraq war lasted from 1980-88. At the beginning, when Iraqi forces invaded Iran, the Mojahedin fought them, (ironically, while they were fighting Iraq, regime’s forces also shot at them from behind, so they really had to defend against both fronts). However in 1982, Iraq pulled its troops out of Iran, and declared a ceasefire. The Mojahedin promptly accepted a ceasefire on the grounds that over 100,000 Iranians and Iraqis had been killed in the war, however Khomeini chose not to accept the ceasefire and instead made the slogan “Capture Jerusalem through Baghdad” and continued the war for a further six years, at the end of which more than a million people were left dead.
In 1986 Mojahedin set up base on the Iraqi side of the Iran-Iraq border, with the ceasefire they signed in effect. One of VEVAK’s usual claims is that PMOI cooperated with Iraq because it maintained an office in Baghdad throughout the years, however the reality is that Britain, France, Germany, Russia … all had and continue to have an embassy in Iraq, (even the Iranian regime has one there now). It makes perfect sense for an organisation on Iraqi soil to have a press office in Baghdad, and it doesn’t automatically mean that they cooperate with the regime.

In response to “Are you not cooperating with Washington now?”
The PMOI were never enemies with the United States to begin with, their only enemy is the Iranian regime which has killed over 120,000 political prisoners and tortured over 500,000. During the U.S.-led war on Iraq, the PMOI neither assisted the Americans nor the Iraqis, thus they are now protected under the 4th Geneva Convention. The other thing the PMOI have done that is really hard to swallow for the regime is that they revealed its clandestine nuclear weapons sites. The regime had not declared these to the IAEA until the Iranian opposition revealed that, and these are not my words; these are the words of the IAEA officials and George Bush who clarified it during a recent a press conference. If this person is criticizing the PMOI for revealing to the world that the regime was secretly making nuclear weapons, then I would seriously suggest that this person’s motives are extremely suspect!


In response to “Do Iranian people like you and support you?”
As an Iranian I would say the Mojahedin are supported by the vast majority of Iranians inside and outside Iran, and that is why they have so much international support too.


As I wrote in my previous post, this guy is continuously offensive and uses offending language, as one would expect from likely VEVAK agents who are there to defend a corrupt dictatorship.

Now, everyone can see that the charges this person levels are unsubstantiated and his motives are extremely suspect. For anyone wanting to learn more about the Ministry of Intelligence and Security (VEVAK) and their campaign to demonize the Iranian opposition, please take a look at this site: www.iranterror.com --] 18:29, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 17:12, 17 April 2024

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WP:POVPUSH problems

Iskandar323 what is going on? Why are you promoting the same minor view in these BLPs? ParadaJulio (talk) 09:59, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

What's the minor view exactly? Iskandar323 (talk) 11:03, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
It appears something is happening in Mehdi Abrishamchi and Massoud Rajavi. Alex-h (talk) 13:18, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
Iskandar323: your edit added that This was justified on the basis of the new relationship being "a matter of revolutionary necessity". Following my notification here, it appears you changed it to the two co-leaders would marry in an act that was framed as being for the benefit of the organization while adding this BBC source to it? How does the BBC source support this was "a matter of revolutionary necessity"? ParadaJulio (talk) 14:57, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
Or that this was framed as being for the benefit of the organization? ParadaJulio (talk) 15:03, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
@ParadaJulio: Why are you deleting the subject's marriage? This in the infobox and lead; it needs to be in the body. See MOS:INFOBOX and MOS:LEAD. This is core biographical information and the obvious need to have it in the body is pretty simple stuff. The only mystery here is why anybody would delete this. The last person who did so is a now blocked disruptive editor. I hope you have a very good explanation as to why you are repeating the actions of said disruptive editor. Iskandar323 (talk) 17:19, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
The BBC is the source for the same information in the lead. The quote is the New Yorker. Iskandar323 (talk) 17:30, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
ParadaJulio: Please, elaborate on why you are objecting to changes here. What you are doing here, jumping to accusations without any substantive discussion of content, is not tolerable. MarioGom (talk) 18:00, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
Wikivoicing that "This was justified on the basis of the new relationship being 'a matter of revolutionary necessity'", which is based solely on one source, contradicts WP:NPOV. Alex-h (talk) 21:50, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
Only one source is cited here, but as it has been discussed in other occasions at the MEK talk page, there are quite a few reliable sources stating the same. Either that it was an ideological marriage, that the marriage was needed to deepen the "ideological revolution", etc. We can discuss if there are enough sources or if there are contradictory sources, but this is hardly an WP:NPOV issue, when we're talking about something reflecting in reliable sources. MarioGom (talk) 22:54, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
And regardless, these would be reasons to delete the supplementary sentence about the precise reasonsing for the marriage, not the core biographical information of the marriage itself - however, since it was a deeply political/ideological marriage, that is referenced in almost all the relevant sources too. Here are more relevant sources for your perusal (that's three ideological explanations, one cult/wife-swapping):
  • Rajavi, as the head of the organization, launched an “ideological revolution”, banning marriage and enforcing mandatory “eternal” divorce on all members, who were required to separate from their husbands or wives. He married one of the new divorcees, Maryam Azodanlu, who became, in effect, his chief lieutenant and took his name.
  • At the Neshest it took Rajavi five days to convince members of his main revolutionary demand - that they should divorce their spouses. He wanted to ensure that members’ sexual identity would be denied and thus bring about their complete devotion to himself as their leader... Massoud and Maryam Rajavi were married in February 1985. Members were given an ideological explanation: “Maryam chose to divorce her husband in favour of her marriage to the Mojahedin’s ideological leader so that she could work with him as cooperating leading partners.” (Cohen, 2009, pp.32-39)
  • the Mojahedin had metamorphized from a mass movement into an inward-looking sect in many ways similar to religious cults found the world over. This metamorphosis rapidly crystallized in early 1985 with Rajavi’s new marriage...Until then, Mojahedin activists had known Maryam Azodanlu as merely the younger sister of a veteran member, and the wife of Mehdi Abrishamchi, one of Rajavi’s close colleagues…proclamation also mentioned almost in passing that Maryam Azodanlu and Mehdi Abrishamchi had recently divorced in order to pave the way for this 'great revolution...It smacked of wife-swapping, especially when Abrishamchi announced his own marriage to Khiabani’s younger sister... (Abrahamian, 1989, pp.251-255)
Iskandar323 (talk) 06:13, 13 June 2023 (UTC)
Iskandar323, you cited the same Guardian source twice. Which of these additional sources support the text This was justified on the basis of the new relationship being "a matter of revolutionary necessity"? And please provide the page numbers from Abrahamian's and Cohen's quotes, I have not been able to find them in those books. ParadaJulio (talk) 15:15, 13 June 2023 (UTC)
Ok, you have page numbers. You still haven't explained why you reverted the entire edits, including the core biographical information, instead of just partially reverting the part that you thought was not supported. Iskandar323 (talk) 15:37, 13 June 2023 (UTC)
See WP:CYCLE, which helped us understand that:
  • You wikivoiced This was justified on the basis of the new relationship being "a matter of revolutionary necessity", even though it's a statement from a single source.
  • You provided other sources for the statement, but they also don't seem to support it.
Without resorting to further unnecessary hostility, elaborate on what (WP:NPOV) information you think the article is missing. ParadaJulio (talk) 14:02, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
The details of the subject's divorce, as already mentioned in the infobox, and yet currently absent from the body, which provides zero explanation as to how she transitioned from one marriage to the next. Iskandar323 (talk) 04:46, 15 June 2023 (UTC)
What is mentioned in the infobox is that Maryam Rajavi was married to Mehdi Abrishamchi from 1980 to 1985, and to Massoud Rajavi from 1985 (dis. 2003). Apparently she also has a daughter. We could create a section about =Personal life= with this kind of neutral information like in Massoud Rajavi's article. ParadaJulio (talk) 15:02, 15 June 2023 (UTC)
Yes, you could and should have done that at the time nearly a week ago if all you objected to was the explanation, instead of what you did, which was blanket reverting core facts. Iskandar323 (talk) 16:05, 15 June 2023 (UTC)
Prior discussion was necessary to identify the precise problems with your edits. ParadaJulio (talk) 15:04, 16 June 2023 (UTC)
What? If you cannot identify any precise problem with an edit, you should not revert it. What you are describing, preemptively reverting just in case you later think of a reason, is highly disruptive. MarioGom (talk) 11:43, 17 June 2023 (UTC)
There is nothing "disruptive" about following WP:CYCLE, which allows communication between editors, and particularly when Iskandar was wikivoicing information from one source and adding new sources that did not support that statement. ParadaJulio (talk) 12:39, 17 June 2023 (UTC)
No. It is disruptive when you revert and do not clearly explain why. It took a long conversation to gather the rationale, and that is a waste of time for everyone. MarioGom (talk) 16:05, 9 July 2023 (UTC)
There were conflated problems with Iskandar323's edits and a discussion was required. In the future (and when possible) I will try listing each individual issue separately, but the WP:BURDEN is on the editor making the changes (not on the editor who’s trying to disentangle them). ParadaJulio (talk) 15:41, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
You barely even pointed out a problem. Your obfuscating communication style is the primary problem in this thread. You could have easily tweaked my edits, but instead you reverted and wasted time byavoiding explaining your actions. You need to A) AGF (big time) and B) be an actual collegiate editor who tries to work with other editors, not waste their/community time. Iskandar323 (talk) 17:13, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
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